04/12/2013 Newsnight


04/12/2013

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If you live longer you will have to work longer, tomorrow the Chancellor

:00:09.:00:18.

of the Exchequer will I Austrailians nonce -- announce another rise in

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the able of those who collect a state pension. It won't happen for a

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while but it is already worrying today's pensioners. There are a lot

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of people you hear them say I want to retire in the next five years, I

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can't wait. Must be a horrible thing to look forward to, really. The

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people's peer accused of making off with ?600,000 of charity funds. To

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be accused by a charity of mitking them for ?625,000 that is breath

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taking. The MP who has told the world of his mental problems talks

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to us about what he hopes he has achieved. And the wounded soldiers

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who set off at lunchtime today to row the Atlantic.

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Now for how long should a person be expected to work for a living?

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According to well-placed sources the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going

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to suggest tomorrow that some of us aren't going to be entitled to a

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state pension until we're 69 or 70. That might not bother Bruce Forsyth,

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but it sure as hell will irk a lot of other people. Gorge will announce

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it in the Autumn Statement tomorrow. We have had something of what is

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inevitably called a "sneak preview". The out come years are not what they

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were, as the parade of older rockers still packing them in and putting on

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a show well past the state pension age shows. 60 is the new 40, or

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something like that. Chas and Dave, picking life on the tour bus over

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life with a bus pass. They have even got a new album out, it is called

:02:10.:02:15.

That's What Happens, if you are interested. It is according to what

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you do in life. Me and Dave have elected to do what we love doing any

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way and we would, if we weren't playing professionally we would be

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playing semiprofessionally doing exactly what we are doing. So we're

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lucky that we are doing something that we love to do and we get paid

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for it. There is a lot of people and you hear them talking, they can't

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wait until they retire, it must be a depressing thing to keep on saying

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that. There are a lot of people around that are living for the day

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when they retire. That's terrible for start. But I do feel sorry for

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them if they do put up the pension age. It will be, they are not going

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to find it very appealing. Back in 1945 a man aged 65 could expect to

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live another 12 years. A woman, slightly longer at 15, skip forward

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to people turning 65 in 2014 and men can expect to live another 22 years

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and women another 24, and the projections are going up. By 2043 it

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is expected men will live another 25 years and women another 28. I think

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we have really been living in a very unreal situation to imagine that

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more and more people could stop work at younger and younger ages and some

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how have enough money to live on or even be supported by a smaller

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number of younger people. That has just not been realistic. The process

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of increasing the state pension age was begun by the last Labour

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Government. They firstly introduced a timetable to equalise ages for men

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and women, and then ramp up that age, firstly to 66, then to 67, and

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68 over the coming decades. What the coalition did when they came in was

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accelerate that timetable. They have also introduced legislation that's

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going through parliament right now that would see a sort of automatic

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rise in state pension age as life expectancy increases. Roughly it

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means that we should spend two thirds of our adult life in work,

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around one third in retirement. The Chancellor is expected to announce

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one of those changes due to extra life expectancy tomorrow that the

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state pension age should go up to 69 from somewhere around the late

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2040s, but by then will an arbitary pension date mean anything at all? I

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think in five or ten years time, if you go to somebody who is, let as

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say having their 65th birthday, it will not be automatic that they will

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say, OK, I'm not going to work any more. There will be more of the how

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much work am I going to be doing, what kind of work might I be doing?

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Than oh, I have got my pension I'm not going to do anything. George

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Osborne discussing tomorrow's Autumn Statement with scientists, science

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research we are told will be getting more money as a result of that

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statement. The question how much will pushing up the state pension

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age affect the date at which George Osborne has to retire from being

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Chancellor? The Government's view is that voters will welcome and reward

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politicians for being straight with them. Here now is Alan Sugar's

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69-year-old right hand man, Hewer and Emma Soames editor at large from

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Saga magazine. This is obviously being driven by a financial need in

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the Treasury rather than it a question of being socially desirable

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s that wise, do you think? Let me tell you that I have looked into the

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subject very carefully, having made two documentaries with my friend

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Margaret Mountford about working into old age. I think that

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inevitably, let me tell you any new child born today will live, or a

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third of them will live to be 100, and any child born today by our

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estimates will not get a state pension until they are 77.

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Inevitably somebody has to pay for this. My argument, my strong belief

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and fury is that whilst you and I may well have been well paid and had

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enough money to set aside for our old age, there are many, many

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working men and women who haven't had that opportunity, and yet they

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were going to have to work so hard late into life that we have got to

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find a way whereby perhaps through taxation it is affordable. So the

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poor old young have to pay to support the old again. Their dads

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and their mums. What is your solution? Exactly, but the fact is

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that they are going to want to be able to work on. I think one of the

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great iniquities at the moment is that people are, you know, put on to

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the scrap heap of life, if you like at 65. When some of them would like

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to be, to work on. Some of them might, but if you are a builder's

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labourer, it is a different proposition at the age of 66 to 26?

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That is where the flexibility comes into it. But for the thousands and

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millions of desk jockies working on to 67, 68 right now is very

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desirable. Particularly when people dare to look at the pensions they

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have scraped together. Which with current interest rates is very

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minimal. Emma is right, and also in 10 or 20 years time advanced in

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health and medication and so forth, you know, one will be able to work

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longer. You are also right about the desk jockies as you call them,

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people who have had he issed dentary -- sedintary lives, my plea is for

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those ditch diggers, farm labourers, scaffolders, roofers, and in the

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programme we made for the BBC, we went up to Preston and looked at

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brick hairs up on the scaffolding up the ladders at age 74. As a

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civilised country we can't allow that. Presumably because they wanted

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to do that? No, because we tested it as a situation we invented it. Who

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would want their father at that age to be up on a roof in the snow in

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March or February. Do you think people have an en itlement to decide

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when they should stop supporting themselves then? That is a tricky

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question, it comes back to Emma's point about those people who have

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had a more easy life, like I or you have had in terms of the physicality

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of it? Given that people in physical occupations should certainly be

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allowed, but it should be sort of encouraged to retire earlier, but

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everybody else, you know, has got to earn the right to stop working. I'm

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of the last cohort of women who were able to stop work and pull a

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pension, a state pension when I was 60. My mother is 91. So let us

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assume that due to fabulous medicine I will probably live older than my

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mother. That means I will be pulling a state pension, or I could be for

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more than 30 years. I mean that is a big, big ask of any Government to

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support that. It is not Government it is your fellow citizens? Exactly.

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People have to pay taxes to keep old people alive? Exactly, what I'm

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saying is it has to go up. You mean the age at which the thing is paid?

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Exactly. What about my earlier question to Nick, which is have

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people got a right to decide that at some point in their older age they

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do not need to support themselves? Yeah, but then at that point I think

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they have got to recognise that they then will suffer financially. Right,

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if you were now say 25, 35 years old, how would you be living your

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life differently to the way that you lived it, do you think, when you

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were that age? I think putting money aside as furiously as possible in

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order to make provision for one's old age. I couldn't imagine being 40

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when I was younger and never mind 60, it happens? Did you not put

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money aside as a young man. No. I don't want pensions advice! I did

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because I would be horrified as a young man to think I was putting

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myself at risk. I think the young people have got to think my word I

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have to start making provision now, absolutely. The problem is hence

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pensions have had such a bad press with the cost of the administration,

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the scandals, the low interest rates, people think they would

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rather do anything other than put money into a pension. Real estate,

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their parents hopefully leaving them some money. They are certainly not

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looking at saving on a regular basis. On nearly the ex-continuity

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that they should. I think one of the big problems that currently we have

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is youngsters from what I hear in the papers are blowing their wage at

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the weekend because there is no point in trying to save up for that

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wretched deposit for instance, because houses are unaffordable. Who

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can lay your hands on ?40,000. They are unaffordable because old people

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keep on sitting in them, smugly watching their value increase I

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don't think so, it is because rich foreigners such as the Greeks and

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Chinese come in and buy up all the real estate. Or there is a shortage

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of real estate, whatever it is. The point is youngsters cannot lay their

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hands on the money therefore the thought of saving is completely

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foreign to them, they don't bother. Thank you very much both of you.

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With us now is staved Grossman, who is more of what -- David Grossman,

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who is more of what the Chancellor ordered. What is going to say

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tomorrow? The Treasury confidently predict that the Chancellor has a

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message that lays out an attractive story about how the economy is

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recovering and how they are looking it in. How they have done that by

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taking tough decision, tough decisions like raising the state

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pension age. There was some difficult news today that they got

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out early which is about cutting departmental spending. Non-protected

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departmental spending being cut even further, an extra billion pounds a

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year for the next three years, these are in unprotected departmental

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spending. Explain what that means? Some departments have been protected

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and will be protected from these cuts, like health, schools, aid,

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local Government, HMRC and the Security Services. That will hit, it

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will mean that places are hit will be the Home Office, the Department

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of Work and Pensions, the defence budget will be protected, we have

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given some leeway to carry forward underspending from previous years

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going forward. I should say that these savings, or these cuts are

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because the Treasury say that the department have been very good at

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saving money, and have underspent, and what they are going to do is

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lock those underspendings going forward and adding up to ?3 billion.

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Labour say it is warm words and no action on the economy, expect a big

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ding dong on all of this tomorrow. How can taking another ?3 billion

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out of the economy be nothing but warm words? Well, how can it be

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nothing other than warm words, what they are trying to say is the

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Government hasn't done nearly enough to get the economy moving in the

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direction it should be by this stage. Thank you very much. If you

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should find yourself given a seat in the House of Lords, you will be

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entitled to be addressed as the "Right Honourable Lord or Lady". One

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of these honourable figures is accused to helping himself to

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?600,000 of charity funds. He's Lord Bhatia, one of Tony Blair's called

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"Peoples' Peers", he has already been suspended once from the House

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of Lords for a rather too free and easy approach to expenses. But this

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is different. This is Lord Bhatia OBE, one of the called "Peoples'

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Peers", introduced to the House of Lords by Tony Blair in 2001. A

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merchant banker, a million air strikes a philanthropist. But just

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three years ago he was caught up in the parliamentary expenses scandal,

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accused of fiddling the taxpayer out of tens of thousands of pounds by

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claiming for a second home he didn't live in. He was suspended from the

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House of Lords for eight months and had to repay ?27,000 to the public

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purse. BBC Newsnight has seen evidence suggesting that Lord Bhatia

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could once more be in trouble over abuse of his parliamentary expenses.

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But there is more. He also stands accused of allegedly mishandling

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hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of charity money to fund his

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own lifestyle. It is breath-taking. We're sadly used to expenses

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fiddling on what most people would think was a large scale in the

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Lords. But to be accused by a charity of milking them for

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?625,000, that is breath-taking. Could it really be that Lord Bhatia

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hadn't learned his lessons after his high-profile suspension from the

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House. To find out I had to get right inside the charity making the

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allegations, the Ethnic Minority Foundation, or EMF. The EMF brings

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in around a million pounds a year, mostly from its property portfolio,

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and usually spends it on good causes in India and in the UK. Former MP,

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John Barrett is a trustee, and became involved with EMF in 2012. He

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soon realised that all was not well. It looked like there was a cash

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crisis approaching, that shouldn't have been happening, because there

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should have been plenty of money in the bank. It became clear that far

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more mon had been going 0 out in the charity that could be -- going out

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of the charity that could be explained. I went to the charity's

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office to meet the man who first raised the alarm about the state of

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EMF's finances. Those miles are claimed here, you know. Chartered

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accountant here took over as treasurer in 2012? I asked the

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accountant to give me this and that, I see a transfer here and there, and

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I knew what was happening then, and I was shocked. My trust and respect

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for him as a Lord had withered away. Lord Bhatia had been chairman of the

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charity for ten years in an unpaid role until 2009. But when the

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charity's chief executive left to monitor its projects in India, Lord

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Bhatia said he would look after things in his absence. But Lord

:17:31.:17:34.

Bhatia's idea of looking after things was not what the trustees

:17:35.:17:40.

expected or sanctioned. He was using the charity to run his own really.

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That was wrong. That's not right. I mean I wouldn't claim anything at

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all, you know, from charity, even when I come here for mileage, I

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don't claim it, it is not necessarily. The trustees confronted

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Lord Bhatia in December last year, he immediately resigned. But they

:18:01.:18:06.

discovered major problems in the books, it was time to bring in a

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team of forensic accountants. It was only then the trustees became aware

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of the scale of the alleged mismanagement. The charity has

:18:15.:18:20.

passed a draft copy of the accountant's report to Newsnight.

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According to this Lord Bhatia owes EMF more than ?600,000. The thing

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they are most exercised about is having to foot the bill for Lord

:18:32.:18:34.

Bhatia's personal chauffeur. He was paid in excess of ?40,000 a year.

:18:35.:18:40.

But last January, Lord Bhatia wrote to him and enclosed a cheque in an

:18:41.:18:45.

apparent ?12,000 loan, yet on the same day awarded him a ?12,000 pay

:18:46.:18:51.

increase, effectively making it a gift from the charity. And he did

:18:52.:18:55.

this in the same week as asking the rest of the work force to take a

:18:56.:19:00.

voluntary pay cut. The for enIing accountant's report says this

:19:01.:19:04.

unauthorised gift to the driver could amount to theft by Lord

:19:05.:19:08.

Bhatia. Next the charity claim his contract of employment was never

:19:09.:19:12.

agreed by the board, was not even done on charity headed notepaper and

:19:13.:19:18.

is invalid. Its legitimacy is further challenged, since a letter

:19:19.:19:23.

enclosing the purports to be assigned by a chairman only assigned

:19:24.:19:27.

to that position six months after the letter was signed. Even if the

:19:28.:19:30.

contract is valid, the charity says the amount was excessive. It was a

:19:31.:19:36.

great shock to me to discover that Lord Bhatia was receiving a salary

:19:37.:19:41.

of ?100,000. It was greater shock to me to discover that his personal

:19:42.:19:45.

driver had been put on to the payroll of the charity. He is also

:19:46.:19:51.

said to have put a relative and long-term associate on the charity

:19:52.:19:55.

payroll, when they are alleged to have been his personal assistant,

:19:56.:20:03.

working solely for him. EMF once reimbursed medical costs for five

:20:04.:20:06.

members he charged to the charity. Add to that some other alleged

:20:07.:20:10.

inappropriate expense, many authorised by himself, contrary to

:20:11.:20:15.

the charity's policy and the grand total comes to ?625,961.

:20:16.:20:24.

Small scums and money, and in this -- small sums of money, and like in

:20:25.:20:29.

this case large sums of money, can save lives, to get clean water into

:20:30.:20:33.

a family home in India or Africa. To have someone treated against TB is

:20:34.:20:38.

worth doing and that's why I'm still involved, that is why I'm determined

:20:39.:20:42.

to stick with this. The charity is now engulfed in claim and counter

:20:43.:20:47.

claim. Lord Bhatia is suing for unfair dismissal and has launched

:20:48.:20:53.

separa proceedings against EMF to recover over ?250,000 which he says

:20:54.:20:57.

he loaned to the charity. The trustees say these were not

:20:58.:21:00.

loans but injections of cash to cover up the scale of his own

:21:01.:21:07.

mismanagement. Aside from the controversy over the alleged

:21:08.:21:11.

mishandling of charity funds, Lord Bhatia could yet find himself in yet

:21:12.:21:17.

more hot water. Documents seen by BBC Newsnight suggests that Lord

:21:18.:21:20.

Bhatia could once more stand accused of abusing his parliamentary

:21:21.:21:28.

expenses. During 2009 and 2010 Lord Bhatia was

:21:29.:21:34.

claiming his chauffeur-driven mileage expenses from the charity.

:21:35.:21:40.

These expense forms include a running total of the car mileage. If

:21:41.:21:46.

we take the 4th of February, for example, we can see the total

:21:47.:21:50.

mileage travelled that day was 80. This was claimed for and paid by the

:21:51.:21:56.

charity. But the problem is, if we look at his House of Lords expenses

:21:57.:22:02.

for that very same day, he's also submitted a claim for a 30-mile

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journey to Westminster. But this means he has been paid twice,

:22:06.:22:15.

because we know that day's full mileage has been paid by the

:22:16.:22:19.

charity. The records show Lord Bhatia appears to do this no fewer

:22:20.:22:24.

than 138 times. Resulting on payments from the tax-payers' purse

:22:25.:22:28.

of more than ?1500 that could have been claimed fraudulently. There can

:22:29.:22:35.

be no defence for claiming the same expenses from a charity and from the

:22:36.:22:44.

taxpayer. Lord Bhatia's alleged double claiming went on until July

:22:45.:22:49.

2010, just a few weeks before his suspension for flipping his second

:22:50.:22:52.

home. It didn't form part of the case against him back then. It is

:22:53.:22:55.

understood these allegations are being made for the first time. To be

:22:56.:23:00.

fair to Lord Bhatia, after he returned to his House of Lords

:23:01.:23:06.

suspension in 2011 and for the whole of 2012, he didn't claim any of his

:23:07.:23:12.

parliamentary allowances. But, following his acrimonious split from

:23:13.:23:15.

the charity in December last year, and his wages from there drying up

:23:16.:23:22.

as of January this year, he once more started claiming his daily

:23:23.:23:27.

announces from the taxpayer. Newsnight wanted to interview Lord

:23:28.:23:32.

Bhatia about the allegations but his lawyer said he was not able to,

:23:33.:23:35.

because of the pending court action. His lawyer also told us that Lord

:23:36.:23:40.

Bhatia believed the charity had mislead the BBC, that EMF, in fact,

:23:41.:23:48.

would hint a large sum of money and had benefitted from the use of

:23:49.:23:51.

facilities in the House of Lords. The lawyer said the story was an

:23:52.:23:57.

attempt to "to rereopen and confuse the historical published position

:23:58.:24:02.

with the present Government and Lord Bhatia and the EMF." The case has

:24:03.:24:07.

been reported by the charity to the national fraud agency, action fraud,

:24:08.:24:13.

while the charities commission told us they had an open case on EMF and

:24:14.:24:18.

was monitoring the situation. We invited Lord Bhatia on to the

:24:19.:24:22.

programme this evening to respond, guess what, he declined! As soon as

:24:23.:24:31.

you leave port and start rowing across an ocean you are on your own,

:24:32.:24:36.

you are immediately launched into a survival situation. If you go over

:24:37.:24:38.

board and are separated from the boat it is a death sentence. The

:24:39.:24:45.

clash in Kiev between a Government which favours Moscow and

:24:46.:24:48.

demonstrators wanting closer relations with Europe, seems no

:24:49.:24:53.

closer to resolution tonight. The American Secretary of State, John

:24:54.:24:55.

Kerry, waded in today, demanding that the people be allowed to decide

:24:56.:25:02.

their fate for themselves. The Ukraine's Government preferred to

:25:03.:25:06.

warn the demonstrators to mind their step. We have been watching the

:25:07.:25:12.

twoing and toing all day. The battle lines are drawn in Kiev,

:25:13.:25:18.

on one side the forces of the date, ranks of riot police protecting the

:25:19.:25:22.

President, and a Government that just turned its back on an EU

:25:23.:25:26.

partnership deal. On the other, the opposition, it is barricaded the

:25:27.:25:31.

streets in the centre of this city, and occupied some public buildings

:25:32.:25:36.

in an attempt to galvanise resistance globally to what they see

:25:37.:25:43.

as Russian domination. If you abandon this country they will have

:25:44.:25:48.

a new pearl line wall. This is the new reality in this wall. President

:25:49.:25:52.

Putin has the dream and everyone does and he has it, to restore the

:25:53.:25:58.

empire. We have another dream, Ukrainian people, to join the

:25:59.:26:03.

European Union. Last night the most important

:26:04.:26:07.

parliamentary opposition leader addressed the supporters in the

:26:08.:26:14.

square that has become the symbol of their revolt. Trying to oust the

:26:15.:26:18.

Government by a parliamentary vote he suggested it would be very easy

:26:19.:26:22.

to walk into the President's office. The opposition's dilemma now is how

:26:23.:26:27.

far to goad the authorities and risk being accused of incitment. Nearby,

:26:28.:26:34.

supporters of Occupy at the mayor's office, inside a constant Cummings

:26:35.:26:40.

and goings as well as anguished political debates, giving the idea

:26:41.:26:44.

of a revolution in process. This woman is 24 and works at the

:26:45.:26:49.

university, she summoned her civil society here by Facebook. Their

:26:50.:26:53.

discussion was about how to effect change It has taken us half an hour

:26:54.:27:31.

to negotiate our way through the police lines there. The truth is the

:27:32.:27:35.

protestors have declared their intention of seizing all kinds of

:27:36.:27:39.

Government buildings. So, they are just trying to stop that happening.

:27:40.:27:42.

And one of the key buildings is the parliament. Inside a debate was

:27:43.:27:48.

going on and a senior figure from the President's party of the regions

:27:49.:27:52.

was briefing the press on their formula for resolving this crisis.

:27:53.:27:56.

They don't rule out joining the EU in the future, but insist that first

:27:57.:28:01.

there is trade disputes to resolve with Russia. TRANSLATION: There is

:28:02.:28:07.

absolutely a prospect of revolving the crisis peacefully. The only

:28:08.:28:11.

thing is the opposition are not yet ready to compro-me we are ready to

:28:12.:28:14.

consider all options. For example the inclusion of the opposition in a

:28:15.:28:17.

Government to share responsibility for t situation in Ukraine, so when

:28:18.:28:23.

we take the step to eurointegration, we would all be ready to share the

:28:24.:28:28.

consequences of that decision. Including the first very difficult

:28:29.:28:32.

period. Outside were thousands of demonstrators who had got through

:28:33.:28:36.

the police lines. But they belonged to his and the President's party.

:28:37.:28:42.

That's the rub, this is not a level democratic playing field. The

:28:43.:28:46.

President's people have all sorts of advantages, and for the moment they

:28:47.:28:51.

are talking of compromise. The President's supporters are taking a

:28:52.:28:57.

line of moderation, and casting the opposition as dangerous wreckers who

:28:58.:29:02.

could rip this country party. Their calculation is that if they can

:29:03.:29:07.

avoid provocative acts of violence towards the protestors, slowly they

:29:08.:29:13.

will start to drift away as the Ukrainian winter bites. That leaves

:29:14.:29:20.

the opposition warning of the stresses between a pro-Russian

:29:21.:29:24.

eastern Ukraine and the west that would rather be with the west.

:29:25.:29:30.

Another scenario is to split the country and to make two Ukraines.

:29:31.:29:36.

That is what today was said to the speaker of the House, you

:29:37.:29:42.

underestimate the situation, it is not a fight between the Government

:29:43.:29:44.

and their position. It is not a fight of sharing the power and

:29:45.:29:47.

getting the office of the President. This is the fight for the future of

:29:48.:29:50.

this country. Whether this country will exist as an independent and

:29:51.:29:55.

sovereign state, or this will be a failed state. Deep pensions remain

:29:56.:29:59.

then, not least because the President may decide to clear these

:30:00.:30:05.

people from the centre of Kiev. For the moment he's winning the

:30:06.:30:08.

stand-off, and might squand at the by using force.

:30:09.:30:15.

-- squander it by using force. I have broken my arm but it won't stop

:30:16.:30:20.

me doing my job, it is so banal as a saying, but when an MP says I'm

:30:21.:30:24.

clinically depressed and I'm taking medication for it is another matter.

:30:25.:30:33.

The MP for Barrow in Furness has just made that statement, John

:30:34.:30:38.

Woodcock. It is not like the Mayor of Toronto admitting smoking crack

:30:39.:30:44.

cocaine and ranting, but for an MP to come out about mental illness is

:30:45.:30:48.

very unusual, and he has been praised by many for it. What made

:30:49.:30:55.

you make the statement? I feel slightly self-indulgent for talking

:30:56.:31:02.

to you. We invited you, it is fine. One in four people the mental health

:31:03.:31:06.

charities say have problems with mental health at points in their

:31:07.:31:10.

lives. Far fewer than one in four actually seek help. I only really

:31:11.:31:16.

thought I could take this step and go to a GP, ask for medication

:31:17.:31:22.

privately because of what some of my friends have done in parliament in

:31:23.:31:27.

recent months and years in saying that they have a problem. In opening

:31:28.:31:31.

up. So I thought well if I'm going to do this I should just be open and

:31:32.:31:35.

honest in the way that I am if I have a scrape, if I fall off a

:31:36.:31:38.

ladder which started this whole thing or whatever. I would say if I

:31:39.:31:44.

have a physical injury, I ought to treat a mental illness in the same

:31:45.:31:48.

way. What is what has been the reaction? Overwhelming today.

:31:49.:31:52.

Supportive? Really lovely. Lots of people in the constituency, on

:31:53.:31:59.

Twitter and Facebook saying nice things. People in parliament coming

:32:00.:32:03.

over and saying well done. I'm sure there will be people up in Barrow

:32:04.:32:08.

who are concerned about it. And you just need to say to them well I feel

:32:09.:32:13.

I can do the job. I'm making a decent fist of it at the moment I

:32:14.:32:22.

think. This is about me wanting to get better and I want more people.

:32:23.:32:28.

We should see treatment as a way of actually overcoming issues rather

:32:29.:32:31.

than flagging up a problem and everyone being worried about it.

:32:32.:32:33.

This is depression we are talking about. Some forms of depression are

:32:34.:32:39.

so bad you can hardly get out of bed. If you can't get out of bed you

:32:40.:32:44.

can't represent constituents can you? I think like any illness, it

:32:45.:32:49.

will affect people in different ways. If it is really bad, then I

:32:50.:32:54.

hope we can get to a point where more people can be onest about it

:32:55.:32:59.

and them seek help. I am blessed, I'm blessed to do the job that I do,

:33:00.:33:03.

I'm blessed that I can still do it despite what I have got. Even if it

:33:04.:33:10.

were, if it were worse than it was I would still want to go and seek

:33:11.:33:14.

help. I would like to think that more people could be open. If we

:33:15.:33:19.

could remove the stigma still lingering around mental health

:33:20.:33:21.

problems, then I think more and more people will be able to feel that

:33:22.:33:26.

they don't have to be silent about this, suffer at home. Not even talk

:33:27.:33:32.

to their family often, which so many people have been coming up today and

:33:33.:33:35.

saying I have had this but I can't say. If they normalise it, will make

:33:36.:33:42.

a difference. You mentioned one in four people having a mental health

:33:43.:33:45.

problem in the average year. That means there is well over 150 MPs who

:33:46.:33:49.

are probably in that situation doesn't it, if they are

:33:50.:33:51.

representative of the people as a whole. Yet what you have done is

:33:52.:33:57.

really unusual? I'm not the first, Kevin Jones, Charles Walker talked

:33:58.:34:01.

about mental health problems in the chamber. Alastair Campbell has said

:34:02.:34:06.

a lot about it. I don't think we should be in a position where you

:34:07.:34:11.

have to fess up. At times in the past when people have tried to force

:34:12.:34:15.

it out and spread rumours. If people want to keep this this is a private

:34:16.:34:20.

thing, it is right and they should be able to do so. I hope more

:34:21.:34:25.

people, even if they are doing it privately and they are struggling

:34:26.:34:28.

that you will try to get help and get yourselves better. Is there a

:34:29.:34:34.

particular problem about being open about this when you are a politician

:34:35.:34:38.

and you can't really show weakness? I think that has been an issue,

:34:39.:34:49.

clearly. I'm reading the biography of Lyndon Baines Johnson, and it

:34:50.:34:53.

talked about how after his heart attack, he was depressed and took

:34:54.:34:58.

pills back then, there was no way he was going into that. That has been a

:34:59.:35:02.

thing. We have so often said, rightly and understandable, you are

:35:03.:35:07.

not real you have just got this image which we don't believe you. I

:35:08.:35:13.

have decided to say what is happening in my life and people have

:35:14.:35:16.

to make a judgment on that now and in the election, I guess. The

:35:17.:35:25.

celebrity cook Nigella Lawson admitted in court today that she had

:35:26.:35:30.

taken cocaine but smoked marijuana but not addicted and that her

:35:31.:35:35.

ex-husband, Charles Saatchi was trying to blacken her name by

:35:36.:35:38.

suggesting a drug problem. The issue in the case is whether their

:35:39.:35:43.

assistants defrauded the glamorous couple has been completely

:35:44.:35:46.

overshadowed the evidence it has given into their lives. This report

:35:47.:35:53.

contains some flash photography. Nigella Lawson had predicted that

:35:54.:35:58.

she would be on trial. Although appears as a witness, the life and

:35:59.:36:02.

marriage of the TV cook was certainly under the microscope, in

:36:03.:36:12.

the not very Nigella surroundings of Isleworth Crown Court. Journalists

:36:13.:36:16.

from here and around the world found themselves privvy to a lifestyle of

:36:17.:36:21.

extravagant spending, and what Miss Lawson described as "intimate

:36:22.:36:26.

terrorism". Earlier this year her ex-husband, Charles Saatchi was

:36:27.:36:31.

pictured with hand to her face. He told everyone that he was taking

:36:32.:36:35.

cocaine out of her nose, but really he was demanding her attention.

:36:36.:36:43.

The art collector said he still adored his ex-wife when he gave

:36:44.:36:50.

evidence last week. She lost no time today in accusing him of bullying

:36:51.:36:52.

her. He In fact, two former personal

:36:53.:37:10.

assistants, on the left here, sisters Elisabetta Grillo and

:37:11.:37:13.

Francesca Grillo are on trial. Accused of defrauding Mr Saatchi of

:37:14.:37:22.

?600,000, allegations they deny. In sometimes testy exchanges, the

:37:23.:37:27.

defence barrister asked Miss Lawson had her background conflicted with

:37:28.:37:32.

her husband's. She replied she didn't know why her marriage was so

:37:33.:37:41.

pertinently to her. He asked was her marriage Endeaning unfortunately.

:37:42.:37:45.

She said not unfortunately. Known to her many fans as the domestic

:37:46.:37:50.

goddess, Nigella Lawson painted a very different picture of her home

:37:51.:37:54.

life today. She said it was intimate terrorism. And this had led her to

:37:55.:38:00.

use cocaine and cannabis. I have never been a drug addict or habitual

:38:01.:38:05.

user, I did not have a drug problem, I had a life problem. The court

:38:06.:38:10.

heard extraordinary details of domestic life chez Saatchi, how the

:38:11.:38:15.

art elector preferred to use cash, and kept a huge stash of it on a

:38:16.:38:21.

clear zip-up bag on top of the fridge. How he picked up the tab

:38:22.:38:28.

when one of Miss Lawson's assistants held a wedding reception at the

:38:29.:38:34.

Saatchi Gallery, and how she could expect to catch a cab to her

:38:35.:38:41.

father's house to do the cleaning. Miss Lawson called her ex-husband as

:38:42.:38:46.

brilliant but beautiful and not the most reliable witness. She's due to

:38:47.:38:49.

face further cross-examination tomorrow.

:38:50.:38:55.

Very soon most of us will be going to bed, for four men, somewhere in

:38:56.:38:59.

the eastern Atlantic though, it will be a pretty makeshift affair, and

:39:00.:39:02.

they will have nothing else to look forward to for the best part of

:39:03.:39:06.

another couple of months. They set off at lunchtime today, to row

:39:07.:39:10.

across the Atlantic. Others have done it before, of course, but none

:39:11.:39:15.

of these four, all four are serving sold yurts, two of them are reseal

:39:16.:39:27.

wounded. We have -- severely wounded.

:39:28.:39:33.

As soon as you leave port and you are immediately launched into a

:39:34.:39:36.

survival situation. If you go overboard and you are separated from

:39:37.:39:41.

the boat, it is a death sentence. It is 3,000 miles of ocean, in a very

:39:42.:39:53.

small boat. It was from the island of La Gomera that Christopher

:39:54.:39:57.

Columbus first set sail for the Americas five centuries ago. His

:39:58.:40:04.

route will be followed by 16 teams of rowers competing in the Atlantic

:40:05.:40:10.

Chap Epping Race. We will go through some safety procedures at night as

:40:11.:40:14.

well, that will be things like having our life jackets on, always

:40:15.:40:18.

wearing them at night. The crews are likely to be rowing around the clock

:40:19.:40:22.

for at least 40 days. This team of four British soldiers, all veterans

:40:23.:40:28.

of the Afghan war, could well find it especially tough. The Lance

:40:29.:40:35.

Corporal was severely wounded on patrol. We were ambushed, close to

:40:36.:40:40.

the enemy and moving down an irrigation ditch. There was an

:40:41.:40:43.

obstruction, a number of trees in the ditch, which forced us to push

:40:44.:40:48.

out of the ditch anden to dry land again. If it is getting too tight we

:40:49.:40:52.

will have to get out. Two of my mates got out and moved forwards,

:40:53.:40:56.

and nothing happened, I was the third man in patrol. I initiated the

:40:57.:41:05.

devaricose immediately losing both of my leg, the fingers on my left

:41:06.:41:13.

hand and a large part of my face. That he is a double amputee. I was

:41:14.:41:18.

conscious throughout the whole incident. I remember the guys

:41:19.:41:22.

talking to me, the searing pain. You're all right mate, you are going

:41:23.:41:25.

to be fine, you're good, you're good. All you want to do is scream,

:41:26.:41:31.

at the same time that is no way to die screaming in the mud. I saw the

:41:32.:41:35.

state I was in, and you immediately kind of wonder, you know, what now?

:41:36.:41:39.

What happens next? You can only trust the guys that are with you to

:41:40.:41:44.

do the best they can, but when you see yourself in that kind of state

:41:45.:41:48.

you don't really have much hope. Cayle had barely finished his rehab

:41:49.:41:51.

when he started training for this. He and the rest of the team aren't

:41:52.:41:57.

just facing a gruelling journey but a dangerous one. There are many

:41:58.:42:02.

ngers at sea, a number of shipping lanes cross our route. There is a

:42:03.:42:07.

realistic chance to get hit by the tankers. Dangerous weather system,

:42:08.:42:11.

tropical storms, Atlantic low pressure, schools, very large wave,

:42:12.:42:17.

30, 40-foot waves created by the trade wins. What is the first thing

:42:18.:42:23.

to do when someone falls in the water. Shout "man overboard".

:42:24.:42:29.

??FORCEDWHI Very unlikely it turn the boat around to pick someone up

:42:30.:42:33.

because of the big sea, if the swells are big you will get carried

:42:34.:42:37.

away from the boat, and trying to find you is like a needle in the

:42:38.:42:42.

haystack. Don't fall off the boat and make sure you stay lipped on.

:42:43.:42:49.

Corporal Scott lost his leg in Afghanistan in 2007, also as a

:42:50.:42:54.

result of an IED. I'm doing it for the guys, the personal friends I

:42:55.:42:57.

have lost, the guys more severely injured than me, and people who have

:42:58.:43:02.

lost loved ones. It is, I think people look at it and go, wow, these

:43:03.:43:07.

guys are soldiering on. What he and the rest of the crew have been

:43:08.:43:10.

trying to prepare themselves for is not just the monotony, but how four

:43:11.:43:16.

grown men are supposed to exist in such a tiny space. I suppose in way

:43:17.:43:20.

it helps missing a leg, because there is a bit more room in there,

:43:21.:43:26.

but it is probably, I can't stretch my arms out and I can probably just

:43:27.:43:31.

managed to get my shoulders in there, it is probably that small.

:43:32.:43:37.

Stuffed inside the boat's hatches are pacts of freeze-dried food,

:43:38.:43:41.

parentally there will be room on deck for a gas burner to cook on,

:43:42.:43:45.

don't ask where. As for answering the all of nature there is at least

:43:46.:43:50.

a choice. Pick your spot, you can have the deluxe or ultimate deluxe,

:43:51.:43:54.

it is up to you. It is over the side or in one of the buckets behind you.

:43:55.:44:05.

So exsummation -- exhaustion, claustraphobia and no privacy, no

:44:06.:44:08.

wonder the team is concerned about how well they will get on. What

:44:09.:44:12.

keeps me awake is how we will get on as a team and make it Now the

:44:13.:45:24.

papers: That's all from us tonight, Kirsty

:45:25.:46:08.

will be here,

:46:09.:46:09.

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