09/12/2013 Newsnight

An enormous country in the heart of Africa said to be on the brink of

utter chaos. As France deploys more troops to prevent a feared genocide.

What has brought the central African Republic to such a crisis. He's

going for a duck house? Just like our one? WhatTRANSMIT He's going for

a duck house? Just like our one? What? How do MPs end up with an 11%

pay rise that some are not bothered by.

As the Ukraine crackdown on protestors, what is the future. We

speak to the presidential candidate's daughter. Will your

mother be President of this country? I hope so. And with street lights we

don't get to see this, is it worth the sacrifice? Another force of

French soldiers ordered to Africa began disarming fighters today in

the central African Republic, Britain is supplying air transport.

The Central African Republic, a vast, land locked poverty-striken

mess, almost at the centre of the conflict is racked by sectarian

conflict where children are said to be particularly vulnerable. We talk

to our correspondent in the town of Bossangoa in the north of the

country. What have you seen today Today in the town the situation is a

little calmer compared to the situation we have seen over the last

few days, extremely tense, we have seen three days of fighting, during

which Christian militia, backed by former soldiers attacked Muslim

civilians here, that prompted a reaction from the mainly Muslim

groups which put the current President in power earlier this

year. This fighting, we have seen African peacekeepers fighting hard

and frankly they managed to prevent a bloodbath here in the town of

Bossangoa, they were clearly targeting civilians and now there is

a sudden relief that has come over the weekend because of the arrival

of French troops in the town. Both communities are confined to camps on

either side of the town at the moment. The French Foreign Minister

the other day talked about being on the verge of a genocide in the

Central African Republic, does it team like that to you when you are

there? It is cleared that the conflict has taken a dangerous

religious turn, and the sectarian violence is quite clear in the

region. What we have seen over the last few days was clearly that the

fighters from both sides were targeting civilians according to

their religion. Now we have seen African peace keepers being able to

contain the fighters on both sides of the town. If they hadn't been

there I can, I think that it was clear that it could have been a mass

killing in this town and a lot of civilians would have died. Now

genocide is obviously quite a strong word, I don't think that there is

any sort of attack that is so well orchestrated at the moment. It is

rather chaotic what is happening here. Organised bands of fighters --

preying on the civilians and carrying out attacks here or there,

there is no clear chain of command that is telling us that this mass

killing is clearly orchestrated at the top of their group. Thank you

very much. So how did the Central African Republic get into this

state, and what is driving the unrest? The Central African

Republic, as its name suggests lies in the heart of Africa surrounded by

countries with their own war torn countries. How did the CAR, end up

in this state with armed militias on the streets and hundreds dead. And

the old colonial power sending its troops to keep the peace. That old

colonial power, France this time, not Britain, surely bears some

responsibility. Since the CAR gained independence in 1962 it has swerved

between short lived democratic Governments and sometimes brutal

dictatorships. The regime of the self-styled Emperor and alleged

cannibal, Bocasa, in the 1970s and 80s was a particular memorable low

point in the nation's history. As in so many colonies arbitary borders

drawn on maps failed to create a unified nation state. In the absence

of national unity, people's sense of identity came instead from their

religion or their family. That has meant bitter struggles between the

Muslim minority and the Christian majority. In March this year Muslim

rebel groups, known as the Seleka, ousted the Christian President and

installed a new President. In response Christian militias were set

up, ostensibly to protect Christian communities and violence was soon

out of control. After a UN resolution was passed in October,

peacekeepers were sent in. But the violence of recent days led to calls

for extra French troops to be flown in. They have now begun to patrol

major cities and are working to disarm the militias. Joining us from

New York is the UN's assistant secretary-general for human rights.

How serious is the situation in the Central African Republic? The

situation is extremely serious, what started assort of religious division

that was deepening, in the last couple of days escalated into

interreligious violence. Our assessment is only in the capital we

had 459 casualties. What hopes do you hold out for the success of the

intervention force? Well, I'm quite optimistic, it is very good that the

number of French troops has increased, but it is also important

that the arrival of called the African-led groups is being sped up,

for example, Americans are providing for logistical help to fly in

Burundians sooner than envisaged. It is highly important to increase the

number of troops there, because no national security forces are

reliable. So first priority is to increase security and then, of

course, humanitarian access. We are speaking of our direct casualties,

but far more dangerous is that a lot of civilians are in the bush, there

is a spread of Malaria, and there is quite high rate of infant mortality

and malnutrition. People are paying a lot of attention outside the area

to what's happening there, because of this turn that was used by the

French Foreign Minister recently about being on the verge of

genocide, because everyone remembers what happened in Rwanda, does it

look like that to you? In Rwanda you had deep-rooted ethnic hostility and

history of clashes. This is what we historically did not have in Central

African Republic. However, there is clear evidence of widespread

questionably whether systematic crimes against humanity being

committed. The called Seleka are deliberately targeting civilians

that predominantly of Christian faith. While we had cases also of

called other groups attacking Muslim civilians.

The leaders of the biggest political parties in parliament have spent

much of the day running around like headless chickens, protesting at

their MPs being paid more. According to reports our politicians are in

line for an 11% pay rise. Ed Miliband has called for cross-party

talks on the issue, though this was met with a cool reception from the

Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister. The are bothered because

at that time when much of the public sector is Lucio to get more than 1%,

it is no way for any of them to bask in the affections of their voters.

Tomorrow a play based on the MPs' expenses scandal opens in London, it

is, of course, a comedy. Tell me we haven't got a duck house. We have a

duck house in the pond? The pond. Did we claim for it? I expect so?

Why have we got a duck house? Somewhere for the ducks to live?

They have somewhere to live, it is called the wild. It is a roof over

their head! . The producer says the MPs were sitting ducks! Anyone who

lives away from home is entitled to accommodation and access to an

office. It was the fact that it is the kind of thing that was claimed.

As personified finally by the title of this play, which is who needs a

duck house? In an effort to clean up after the scandal the new

independent parliamentary standards authority will recommend a new pay

and expenses package for MPs, published on Thursday. The sneak

previews, have not, it is fair to say, received rave reviews. The pay

of a backbench MP is concernedly ?66,400, on Thursday, -- Ipsa will

recommend an 11% pay rise N doing so they are cutting back allowances and

pension entitlements which will make the new package ?2. 2 million

cheaper to the taxpayer than the current one. It is right that IPSA

does scrap the resettlement grants and the gold plated pensions that

MPs enjoy. That doesn't justify increasing pay at the time, IPSA

should be doing it regardless, not trading it off to give MPs a very

big pay increase at a time when many people are struggling and private

and public sector workers haven't seen an increase. Take the Mickey

out of MPs for claiming for sparkly toilet seats or massage chairs might

make great comedy, but many MPs aren't laughing. All the party

leaders have come out against the IPSA pay rise, saying it is unTHIBL.

A lot of backbench -- unthinkable, a lot of backbenchers see that has a

betrayal. Why? Because they say it is already for the leaders, they

have a higher paid jobs, a high-earning spouse in the family

and inherited wealth to boot. The party leaders could well afford to

buy whole estates of duck houses if they fancied them. There is two

elements to it, one is paying MPs for the jobs they do. You could say

it is worth it for what they do, you can pay the salary accordingly.

There is the allied point of attracting people able to do that

very complex job. You may be seeking to attract people who have had

experience, they have held professional jobs, you want them to

come in with their experience. So for them it is taking a pay cut to

actually come into parliament. MPs' pay has slipped when compared to

average wages ever since MPs were first paid in 1911, they received

nearly six-times the average wage. The it was around 3. 1 six times the

average wage, now it is slipping back to 2. 7, bringing it back to

the average multiple over time would take pay to ?83,6460, that is far

more than IPSA is proposing. This isn't the usual House of Commons

stuff? No, this is pricier, but I thought what the hell, you know, I

kept the receipt. In the meantime the whole subject is a gift to the

gag writers, even if it is not doing much for the reputation of politics.

Cheers? Cheers, up yours. Now Walker is the MP for Broxbourne, and the

vice-chairman of the 1922 Committee of backbench Conservative MPs.

Caroline Lucas is the green MP for Brighton pavilion. Why do you

deserve a pay rise? IPSA was set up in the wake of the expenses scandal

in 2010 to take pay and expenses out of the hands of the Members of

Parliament. We were told we would never get involved in that margin.

It seems we are. I don't think Members of Parliament deserve a pay

rise, nor do I think they don't, it is up to IPSA, an independent body

making decisions on our pay. You will take? I will. Why? Because I

have not turned pay rise down in my 25-year professional career, and I

won't be holier than,000 on -- thou? Are you going to be holier than

thou? I think when people are having to take pay cuts and MPs getting an

increase of 11%, it sends out the message we are not all in this

together but deeply hip crate calm. When MPs are held in little esteem

this is the worst thing we could do. Do you think there may be something

to do in the argument if you sit in a safe seat it is easier to accept

it than sitting in a seat you might lose? There is probably some truth

about that, that is why you shouldn't have safe seats, so no MP

MP is feeling complacent we need to change the electoral system. I

walked into that? You did. You would accept they are possibly going on to

two categories of MP, a category of MP who can afford to take the money

and a category who cannot? In terms of public opinion it is wrong that

anybody should feel that they can afford to take it. We know this is

deeply unpopular outside of parliament. And quite understandably

so. This has been a running sore for 40 years, Members of Parliament have

broken links with recommended pay increases for 40 years, or the prime

ministers of the day have. I think the whole thing will unravel and Ed

Miliband calling for talk, we will be right back to square one, we have

learned nothing of the past four decades. Once again party leaders

will make a terrible, terrible mistake. You don't dispute that MPs

should be paid? No, I certainly don't dispute they should be paid,

of course they should be paid and paid a reasonable amount. Do you

think they should decide their own salaries? Ideally I believe it

should be an independent body that should do it, which is why we find

ourselves in a difficult position. My point would be is that I wouldn't

have asked the independent body to do this piece of work at a time when

we are in the biggest economic crisis for many, many decades. There

is no logic to this at all, you shouldn't be setting your own level

of pay, you say, and yet you say you should be able to determine when an

independent body can do it and when they can't? I would have thought it

is common sense at a time when you have politicians trying to tell the

rest of the population that we are in unprecedentedly difficult

economic times that we all have to tighten our belts. At that

particular time to go away and ask anybody, whether an independent body

or anybody else to come up with suggestions of pay increase for MPs,

I think is just completely mad timing. I don't think that is an

incomprehensible position to take, I think it is a logical one. The other

point made in the report is there were net savings to the Exchequer

because of changes in pensions and all the rest of it. That is a good

thing isn't it? I found myself in the unusual position of agreeing

with the Taxpayers' Alliance when the gentleman said those cuts should

be made any way not as trade-off to an increased salary. If there are

savings to be made on mention, fine let's look at that, but not the

price to pay for the increase in salaries. The overall package

reduces the cost of politics? It will increase it even more, it will

enable us to save more money if we didn't take a pay increase. We are

telling people who have not had a pain crease for many, many years and

we are trying to justify an 11% increase. I'm not telling anybody

anything, incompetence IPSA is an independent pay body. What do you

think your constitutes think? I'm on the wrong side of the argument with

my constitutes many of them, I was in parliament in 2010, and it was a

desperate situation we found ourselves in, we can't revisit it

again, I fear we will. We are hurtling towards having a parliament

of extremely rich people. If that's what the British public want, fine,

that is absolutely fine by me, but that is where we are heading. We

will have a heart of the independently wealthy, a Government

of the independently wealthy and parliament of independently wealthy.

If that is what the public want. It will only get worse biceping the pay

rise. I don't see how that is logical in terms of saying let's

have an 11% pay rise. Right now we have a number of senior politicians

where being a member of parliament is a hobby job, they have outside

work and high-earning spouses and being a minister is a hobby job. The

Deputy Prime Minister said he would be happy to do this job for nothing.

I haven't met a single constitute who could afford to do his or her

job for nothing. It is one of the serious decisions a court can take,

whether or not a child should be removed from a family. The view of

an experienced professional can be crucial in reaching that decision.

Newsnight has heard a number of professional witnesses in the family

courts said they will continue refuse to appear because the money

they get has been cut by the Government.

It is the expert view that decides whether or not a child goes into

care, the most drastic step a court can take. They can be experts,

psychologists or social workers. I might take 15-20 hours to work on an

assessment of a mother. And I bring to it my experience as a

psychiatrist, psychotherapist and psycho analyst. Which the court does

not have available to it from anyone else. To speed up case, and cut

costs, judges in the family court have been told they can only call an

expert witness if it is strictly necessary for the case. Rather than

reasonably required. Which was the old test. In addition cuts to Legal

Aid are now having an impact. From this month new rules mean experts

are paid less for their assessments. The fee for a child psychiatrist,

for instance, has dropped from ?1 per hour to ?108 per hour. For the

first time the hours they can charge on a case have been limited, for a

child psychiatrist it is a maximum of 25 hours. The danger not merely

now of reducing the rates of pay, as it were, per hour, but crucially

saying that you can only spend a certain number of hours on an

assessment. That really restricts the professional competence of

expert witnesses, many of them who are saying now they won't do this

work, say that would so compromise their work that it would be

unethical to try to assess a whole family in a certain limited number

of hours. Newsnight has seen the resultings of a survey of its

members -- results of a survey of its members. The poll makes stark

reading. Some doubt the experts would turn

down the work. I have been an expert witness in a large number of trial,

and I have seen myself as very well paid and embarrassingly well paid,

actually. There is obvious room for a reduction in the rates. And I

think most expert witnesses will continue to appear. They like the

work, they are well paid any way and so I don't think there will be any

effect at all in the availability of experts. Expert rates were cut

significantly in October 2011, we never thought that they needed to be

cut any furthe There were some people who said they were unable to

work at the cut rates, but most people found a way to continue

working. It is this further cut that we think is destructive. It is not

just the expert witnesses, with the obvious self-interest, worried about

these changes. The country's leading judges are concerned too. They said

that a declining availability of true expertise will inevitably

impede efficient administration of justice and detrimentally affect

decision-making in the best interests of children. Family courts

are already cutting back, in one recent case two social workers

applied to remove a new born baby with no expert evidence at all. In

court the judge was easily persuaded to refuse that application and

ordered that the child, and that the mother and baby go into an

assessment centre, a former expert witness, and she has done extremely

well and shown that a lot of the concerns of the local authority were

misplaced or exaggerated. That is the difference an expert witness can

make. The Ministry of Justice told us the Government was often paying

much for more legally aided expert witnesses than others, and this

could not be justified. The current system can be agonisingly slow,

figures released today showed dozens of care cases started in 2010 are

still unresolved. That could mean children and families are still in

limbo after three years, waiting for the courts to decide their future.

It is this problem as much as cost that the changes are intended to

deal with. Now a busy night for air traffic controllers in South Africa,

as leaders from all over the world make their way to Johannesburg for

tomorrow's memorial service for Nelson Mandela. You would have to go

a long way to find anyone who would dispute man Delled had a's --

Mandela's widely viewed political skills. We are reporting from Soweto

illustrating how that rare skill set was brought into play in a moment of

real danger for the country. Nelson Mandela was forged in the fierce

heat of radical black politics. Soweto was the cauldron of the early

liberation struggle. This, not prison, was what gave manned the --

Mandela what he would need for the prison life. He learned a unique

moral authority. That is not where his real authority or power sprang

from, it sprang from a set of hard-headed political skills as a

leader, from a clarity of political vision sustained over decades and

from a steely ability to make himself the indispensable figure at

Millennium Domes of great crisis. April 1993 was one such moment. In

which Mandela would prove himself a brilliant political operator. And

save South Africa. The white Government had still not conceded a

date for free elections. The communist leader, Chris Hani, was a

heroic figure, second only to Mandela in popular esteem. Then he

was shot dead by a white racist. I went over to the house and I saw

Chris, he was lying there, clutching a newspaper. And he was, I think he

was dead. ??FORCEDWHI Public rage tore through the country, many

blacks lost patience with a peace process that seemed endless. Rolf

Meyer was a key player, leading negotiations for the white

Government. I would say for 36 hours it was a tipping point. It could

have very easily moved us over the edge. And everything was so very

sensitively balanced that a major impact like this could have taken us

completely out of the possibility of a peaceful solution. We want an

election date now. Mandela told the white Government bluntly there could

be no more delay. He needed them to agree a date immediately for free

elections, only that could halt the slide. He then appeared on

television at immense risk to his own public credibility to make a

dramatic appeal for calm. Our grief and anger is tearing us apart. He

knew the public mood was turning against reconciliation, but still he

spoke of the white woman who had tipped off the police about the

killer's identity. A white woman of Afrikana origin risked her life so

that we may know and bring to justice this assassin. Mandela had

the authority from within himself. He had the inner conviction to do

the right thing that would actually confirm his leadership. That was a

perfect moment where he did it. The Government committed to elections,

democracy was only a matter of time. It had a date. Mandela had snatched

from the greatest moment of peril the biggest advance. At Soweto

Cricket Oval, black and white together take a moment of silence

for Mandela before play. This is, in a sense, the future he rescued for

this country. In the early days of Nelson Mandela's presidency the

England cricket team came here to play a one-day friendly against a

Soweto team. Then the streets around the club were still tense with the

aftershock of so much political violence. Half way through the match

Nelson Mandela turned up, unannounced. I was standing a few

feet away, and I could see as Mandela shook the hand of the young

Soweto players they were shining with pride. Not just to be meeting

Mandela, but also because they, black South Africans, were doing

something that had been impossible until now. They were hosting the

England team. They took it as great gesture of respect from the outside

world. Which is what it was, but it was symbolic of something else as

well, it was symbolic of the great promise of the future, symbolic of

all the limitless possibilities that now lay ahead. This man grew up in

teargas and turmoil. He's too young to have been here the day Mandela

came, but he remembers what it meant to the people? I think for the

people that was probably one of the biggest days, especially from a

sports perspective, to have the great man himself here. Apartheid

would have locked people like him out of the lives they live today.

They inherit the future that Mandela pulled from the flames of the early

1990s. Today I'm a chartered accountant and completing my law

degree. I would say the sky is the limit. Even 20 years ago, to hear a

young black, middle-class man speaking like this was pretty rare?

Today I can definitely say there is a whole lot of "us" if I can refer

to it like that. I would like to say to the professional, let's come back

to the grassroots so that Soweto and every other township in South Africa

can bossom. -- blossom. Poverty for the most part still has its

distinctive skin colour in these townships. Did Mandela in return for

the right to vote for freedom concede too much economically. Did

he leave real economic power where it had always been, in white hands.

That is a question that the guardians of his legacy are already

facing. No electricity, no water, no shower. Most things people don't

have. This man has lived in the migrant workers' hostel for 33

years, democracy has not improved living conditions here. 23 years

after winning the vote, he now bonders what the vote is for. Are

you disappointed? Yeah. What can I do? We keep on voting, voting,

voting, we are tired of that now. We don't know what we are voting for.

So two Sowetos emerge from that pivitol moment in 1993, hope and an

enduring despair sit side-by-side. Multiple Soweto, multiple South

Africas sing Mandela to his sleep. The greatest moral figure of our age

bequeaths a democratic South Africa, but his great political skills have

not yet delivered a country that is free from what decades of apartheid

and centuries of racial oppression did to it. The authorities in

Ukraine seem to have decided they have had enough of the protests

which have brought parts of the down a halt. Dismantling and blocking off

several camps near key buildings in Kiev today. Demonstrations began

when President Yanukovych, or how you pronounce it, decided it was

more important to keep sweet with Moscow than get closer to the

European Union. The EU is offering to mediate between Government and

protesters. Our diplomatic editor has just returned from Kiev. Bring

us up-to-date? This is a sharp increase in tension, there has been

this stand-off for nearly two weeks now. Since they turned their back on

this EU partnership agreement, President Yanukovych. What happened

was you had this central protest, an independent Europe, Midan and

satellite occupations and all sorts of things. They have mopped those up

today, the riot police have gone in and dismantled and driven away the

protesters and put some through the courts, they have started doing

that. That has brought a sharp increase in pension. They have not

gone into the central square yet. Baroness Ashton due there tomorrow

has issued a statement before we came on air, urging caution on the

Government for Mr Yanukovych to try to contain the situation. These

pictures we can see today were from one of today's raids on a party

headquarters of the Fatherland party. This party is led by the

country's most charismatic and if you like significant opposition

leader, but someone who is in jail on a seven-year sentence, Yulia

Tymoshenko. She is revealed by many protestors but reviled by many other

Ukrainians. I have been on a journey to find out if she's a hero or

villain. It is before dawn and we are heading to eastern Ukraine, it

is there that the country's most celebrated prisoner is being held in

a secure hospital. Yulia Tymoshenko was one of the heros of the orange

revolution nine years ago, now there is a campaign for her freedom. The

night before we had been in Kiev's independent square to hear Yulia's

daughter read a message from detention from her mother. The crowd

hung on her every word. Even the rather extravagant comparisons of

the country's current leader with Stalin, who murdered millions,

seemed to win their approval. In the forefront team Yulia, the older

ladies for whom Ukraine's imprisoned former Prime Minister is an idol.

TRANSLATION: She's a symbol of endurance, the smiling face of the

revolution of 2004. And in the final analysis Yulia is a symbol of

feminity. Well it is obvious that there are millions of Ukrainians for

whom Yulia Tymoshenko is a martyr, a political prisoner, a kind of Ang

Sang Sukyi. And other foreigners have bought that image, talk more to

people here and you start to hear a very different picture as well.

Yulia went into politics during the 1990s after making a fortune in a

notoriously corrupt oil and gas building. Certificating gay, a harsh

critic of the current Government shared some unflattering light on

Yulia's entry to politics too. She decided to be a politician in 1996,

she was arrested one year beforeician in 1996, she was

arrested one year before. For drug smuggling to Russia, she wanted

immunity that is why she declared.. She was on charges of embezzlement

and other charges. Members of Team Yulia are on hand along with body

guards. Tymoshenko's lawyer turns up too, fresh from a paint-throwing

attack at a court hearing that morning. That was the forth time of

an attack of the defence team against Mrs Tymoshenko. That is the

business card of the attitude towards what is going on.

Little wonder that foreign human rights organisations have criticised

the trial and subsequent tention as political persecution. We can't film

in the hospital where Yulia has been on hunger strike since democracy

protests erupted late last month in the capital. There the protestors

portray themselves as pro-European and trying to stop a pro-Russian

President from getting too close to Vladimir Putin. The protestors

complain loudly about Ukraine's deal with Russia for gas. But it was

Yulia Tymoshenko, who, as Prime Minister, signed it. TRANSLATION: In

2009 an agreement was signed, gas agreement with Russia, coercing

Ukraine to join with Russia in union. That is why we are saying

that Yulia Tymoshenko had already betrayed the interests of the

Ukraine and signed a deal completely against the interests of the

country. They emerge to brief the local press, her mother's hungry

strike is over, she has bowed to a petition from supporters, the

weather has turned and evening fallen. We need to talk but she is

in a hurry. We conduct the interview in her Range Rover. I asked first

about the gas deal which, some said sold the country to the Russians?

She started the way for Ukraine to remove the political aspect from the

gas trade and gas negotiations that take place every year and political

negotiations that control Ukraine. Now Ukraine has lower gas price than

European countries. When she agreed for the contracts, which she didn't

sign, by the way, which was signed by the two enterprise heads, the

price was much lower than in the neighbouring European countries. It

is all alie. Is she an honest woman your mother, did she benefit from

public office in a way that was bad and dishonest? If you follow really

the committee report that was commissioned by the European Union

and they followed every trial, they witnessed, they took witnesses from

all the participants in the trial. They looked for the material cases

and material files of the case. And nowhere in this file was one word of

private gain or corruption. Do you think she will be President of the

Country one day? I hope so. These days in Ukraine people tend to

assume the worst about their politicians and probity, even if

they support them. Did any come through the post-Soviet turmoil,

with reputation intact. If you want to earn billions of dollars you

can't earn without corruption. It is your choice to he were this money,

and the next step you go to politics. If you go to politics

after this corrupted ground, be ready to answer the questions, it is

a certain obligation to be a businessman in the Ukraine.

Journey's end and we are back in Kiev, time to take stock. So did

Yulia Tymoshenko come through the business and political upheavals of

the last 20 years, with clean hands? I think not. I wonder who really

did. The point is now the way that President Yanukovych has treated her

has reinvigorated her political credentials and given her a new

lease of life. And who knows, one day she could be the President of

this country. Now, put that light out! The air raid warden in Dad's

Army would be happily at home in an enormous expanse of Northumbria.

Nearly 600 square miles of Northumberland have been awarded

protected dark sky status, so people can get a better view of the night

sky. Just so you know what we are talking about. Let's look at a shot

from the camera mounted on the proof across the street here in central

London. It is enough to drive Brian Cox and John Culshaw into a suicide

pact. Mention the word "nor you will better land" they go all dreamy

eyed. From above European Union sparkles,

the view from the ground is far from. The area covered is 975 square

miles, incorporating the National Park and the Keilder forest park.

The international dark skies association has granted the area

gold tier state Turks the highest accolade, making it the largest side

of its kind in Europe, it won't be all along in the park. There is

another park like it in Galloway which turned its lights out four

years ago. The night sky has been given protected status, which means

people living locally will have to comply with strict lighting

controls. It is hoped the local economy and nocturnal wildlife will

benefit. There is a boost to astro tourism at the Keilder Observatory.

We are looking forward to working with businesses and communities in

the months and years to come, to try to get everyone to be aware of the

special quality we have in huge amounts, it is above our head it is

a free national quality that we should be very, very proud of and we

should do our best to try to keep as dark as possible.

But with just 2,000 people living within the park, the bonders of a

starry sky will still be can I denied to the vast majority of us.

We have the lead astronomer from the Keilder Observatory, joining us from

Northumberland now. What are we missing down here? It is phenomenal

up here, this award has really been the icing on the cake for a lot of

dedicated people working tirelessly at the observatory, it is about

making astronomy accessible. To as many people as possible. Get out of

your comfort zone and get yourself up north. I don't know if you

managed to see it, you could see the pictures from the roof of the

building in Broadcasting House, nothing here just grey light. What

can you see now? We have got a cornucopia of stars overhead. We

have the lights and cameras all going now it is difficult to observe

the dark skies. These lights are precisely what we don't want. We

want to see the darkness and the dark skies, that is precisely what

we have got. This instrument here allows us to see wonderful galaxies

like M-33, a pin wheel galaxy. It is over nearly 10 million light years

distance, we can see the bonders of our universe by observing these

incredible objects. Is that worth depriving people of decent lighting?

We're not depriving anybody of anything. This is the thing. The

area we have this dark sky park destination in has always been dark,

that is why we built the observatory over six years ago now. It has

always been dark in this part of the world. One of the great challenges

for me as observer, is to make sure people in generations to come can

enjoy the dark skies. In a world where our lives can be difficult on

day-to-day basis, isn't it a wonderful thing you can access a

phenomenal, bluetful, dark sky and wonder what else is out there. Let

your self-dream a bit. It is a port of therapy? Self-dream a bit. It is

a port of therapy? Absolutely. The universe we come from makes us who

we are. Being able to dream about that and to connect in it, in that

insay the sense of wonder, as a child you wanted to drive a steam

train or rocketship. As adults we will lose all that, it is the wonder

of the universe we try to reignite in people. When they come in their

droves that is the one since I can get, people can connect with the

universe, that is what makes us who we are. It is where it all came from

and to be able to connect with that under phenomenal dark skies, that

today we got news and to preserve it for generations to come is

wonderful. Therapy, absolutely. Thanks a lot. That is about all from

us tonight. While the astronomers at the Keilder Observatory were were a

little disappointed by cloudy skies. Back in the Newsnight lab the

boffins were able to reconstruct what they could see if the skies had

been clearer.