19/12/2013 Newsnight

Whiched Fusilier Ian Rigby's killers were convicted today of his cold

blooded murder. They were followers of extreme political Islam for many

years. Why were they not stopped when the warning signs, such as a

hatred of the west were there. You are clear that this kind of ideology

of hatred, of conflict can feed into terrorism? It isn't just "can" feed

into terrorism, it does feed into terrorism and they produce

terrorism. Since 9/11 we have been repeatedly assured that the UK

played no part in rendition suspects. Today the Government was

confronted with evidence that this is not true. Why no independent

inquiry as David Cameron once promised. We speak to Sir Menzies

Campbell, part of the group investigating what happened.

Dimir Putin says he intended to pardon Russia's richest man, is it

an attempt to get the world on side ahead of the Sochi Olympics. Gaia,

the most powerful telescope in the world was launched today, ready to

map a billion stars. How will it transform our understanding of the

galaxy? As we go on air tonight there are dramatic scenes in the

heart of London Theatreland, where part of the roof of the Apollo

Theatre has collapsed during the performance of the curious Incident

of a Dog In the Nightime. We will bring you latest pictures and news.

The two killers of Ian Rigby described themselves as soldiers of

Allah. They were convicted today after a trial which exposed his

killers' extreme interpretation of Islam and their complete lack of

remorse. There were danger signs, both men associated with known

Islamist extremists from groups this programme has tracked for years. So

what role did radicalisation play in the brutal take and after Lee

Rigby's murder will there be a crackdown. There are distressing

images from the start. Fusilier Le Rigg was the victim of a

savage attack. You can see him highlighted, a Carayolying his

killers accelerated knocking him down. The occupants got out,

stabbing him repeatedly, they tried to can he cap Tate him. --

decapitate him. The only reason we have killed this man today is

because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers. He was the soldier

that was spotted first. It is an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

We swear by a mighty Allah we will never stop fighting you until you

leave us alone. The soldier is the fairest target. This horrific attack

and murder, which took place in broad daylight on the streets of

London shocked the whole country. The brutal murder of Lee Rigby,

right here said something about criminally deranged minds, it said

something about the threat of extremism in Britain today, and the

tiny minority of Muslims who believe that Islam is at war with the west.

Crickets say successive Governments have failed to address this problem

for more than 15 years. For some like this Islamic scholar, the

murder of Lee Rigby is a journey beginning before the 9/11 attacks in

2001. We have to think very coverallly, because if we don't

arrest this now, even though it is very late in the day, there are

still those who are coming from Syria, coming from Somalia, coming

from Pakistan, coming from Afghanistan. Coming back to the

country? Coming back to the country. More murderers are coming on the

way, if you are not very careful. Anjum chowedry, -- Choudray one of

the most vocal Islamists in the country, he was a leading figure in

a leading Islamic group. When that was banned other splinter groups

emerged, it is clear that Adebolajo was interested in extreme political

Islam. Choudray told me he was never a member, but admitted that

Adebolajo did attempt. Do you believe David Cameron gets caught in

the street, do you think we start fussing our guns, will the

politicians get done, it will be the average guys like you and your

children. Get rid of them, tell them to bring our troops back so you can

all live in peace. His accomplice, Michael Adabowale attended the same

event outside St Paul's Cathedral in London last year. If you see evil

change it with your hand if can you do so, if you cannot do so, them

speak out against it. You are clear that this kind of ideology of

hatred, of conflict, can feed into terrorism? It is not just it can

feed into terrorism, it does feed into terrorism, if the men -- it is

the main producer of terrorism. Hate receipt is the basic starting point.

When the two planes magnificently ran through those buildings, OK, and

people turn around and say, hang on a second, that is barbaric... I have

been following the group for more than a decade, this was in 2004, I

was I was invited to attend a meeting. You describe the planes

flying into the two towers, and you said it was magnificent, how can you

justify that as Islam, Jewish or Christian. If you start the war we

won't give the other cheek. The actual killing of innocent civilians

can't be right? It can't be right according to you. According to you

it can't be right. According to Islam it is absolutely right. A year

later, immediately after the London bombings, I caught up with another

leading figure in the group. What I would say about those who do suicide

operations or martyr operations, suicide is a term kind in the media,

they are completely praiseworthy. Remember the man who called the 9/11

attacks magnificent, we talked to him in 2005. For them the banner has

been risen inside the UK for Jihad. For them they are allowed to attack,

they have probably many other cells in the UK. What the radicals say,

and they have said it to me personally, you are a kaffer you are

less worthwhile than a -- kaffir, and you are less worthwhile than a

fellow Muslim? They are absolutely wrong. To judge who is what is not

any Muslim or any person's business, we are not gods. It is God's

business to judge. Anjum Choudray refused to condemn Lee Rigby's

murder, he prefers to condemn Muslim murders around the world. He said:

There is another radical, a supporter of the group, who

reportedly came into contact with Lee Rigby's killers. His name is

Usman Ali, he has previously admitted joining the group in the

199 #0S. This was his local mosque, Greenwich Islamic Centre. He used to

run prayer sessions here. The mosque leadership spent ?30,000 of their

own money taking him to court after they said he had shown footage of

the 9/11 attacks to an audience, including children. In 2007 the

court agreed to a lifetime ban. After he got kicked out of the

Islamic Centre, the former member of the group came here to the community

centre in Plumstead, this place has received some council funding. We

understand that the two killers attended at least some of his

lectures here. The council denies there is a problem with extremist

preaching at the centre. We tried to speak to Usman Ali, but he declined

to answer questions. Previously he denied's extremist, and says doesn't

support terrorism. We Muslims have suffered, and if we do not take

action then we will suffer even more. But in order to be fective

then we need the support of the Government, the state, the people.

Massive mobilisation at all levels from schools, colleges,

universities, mosques, churches, any place of gathering this should be

the discussion. There are signs of a fundamental re-think about how to

tackle extremism. This document published just a couple of weeks ago

by a special Government task force contains a very interesting clause,

it says we have been too reticent to deal with extremism in this country.

In part, because of a misplaced concern that attacking Islamist

extremism equates to an attack on Islam itself. It is clear after the

murder of Lee Rigby the Maoed is about to change. But change is

coming late. 12 years after -- the mood is about to change. But change

is coming late, 12 years after 9/11, and ten years after Britain accepted

radicals saying they weren't plotting terrorism here. Lee Rigby's

murder carries another meaning, can the will be found to tackle

extremism, not just those who plan violence but those who preach hate.

This is the biggest security challenge for the UK. To discuss

that I'm joined now by my guests. Baroness Polly Neville Jones, a

senior researcher of the anti-extreme agency, and a senior

research fellow. These men were radicalised not just by the Internet

or even on the Internet, but out on the streets, out in different

places. Why were they not picked up. We have seen that they actually were

very public in their condemnation of the west? We have also seen that

there are hundreds of young men like this, probably thousands with those

views and the Security Services can't keep an eye on two or three

thousand people 24/7. That is the essence of the problem. Also has

there been a disconnect that other Muslims perhaps who know them or who

live in the street beside them are reluctant to come forward? It is

possible that some of their friend or close family may have known about

this, and that we know it is very difficult to get close knit

communities and families to speak out. The fundamental challenge is to

destroy the argument that they use. Those placards in the street, what

he was saying, all those arguments need to be taken head on. Do you

think part of the problem is there has not been a preparedness to take

these arguments head on, not a preparedness to discuss British

foreign policy, not a preparedness to discuss how you pond to it if you

are unhappy about it. Even to be seen to be discussing this flags you

out as extremist? I don't think that is the case, I do think that

Government has to be prepared to defend the policies that it pursues,

but I think the Government has been pretty clear for some time. The

issue is not just violence, it is actually extremism. And where we

need to go now is developing a policy which actually tackle

extremism. That is the root of the thing. We have to live in a country

where we share basic values. Do you agree that the problem is there are

so many people that hold the similar views that it is impossible to track

them down. One of them was actually ejected from Kenya, one was filmed

on a soapbox, are they so off the radar? Two things, one is clearly

you have to pursue and you have to try to get hold of, and you have to

try to neutralise those who are already down the road to violence,

but there is a separate very important task, which is prevent

others following them. That is where we have to go to limit the numbers.

Now we have this document about tackling extremism, is the

Government going about this the right way? Parts of the document

should definitely be welcomed. Which parts? To actually define extremism

and to say that is at the root of this is very important. Some of the

focus on universities, on prisons, there are a number of things to be

welcomed. But, at the same time they advocated a lot of consultation,

looking at new legislation, are you trying to be seen to do something

new? But actually we have a significant body of counter

terrorism legislation that we just simply don't enforce. Is part of the

reason we don't enforce that a timidity, a danger to be seen to be

anti-Islamic? It may be, I think also some of the offences I'm

thinking of, like prescribed organisation offences are quite hard

to prove, and I think there might be an unwillingness or inability to do

so. I think given the men's connections to the extremism group

the offences need to be taken seriously, they can be used to

disrupt the extremist preaching we are so concerned about. A

contributor to the film says the Government needs to do more, needs

to step in and help more. The idea of helping Imams on campuses and so

forth to make sure they are picking out people who are problematic. Do

you think that is enough, or do we need to have a whole different

discussion about the way we conduct foreign policy? I don't think it is

Government but people who work with Government. It is civic society that

needs to take the lead there, more Government support actually ruins

the work because people say Government sell-out. It needs Muslim

leadership, Muslim communities to stand up to the hate preachers and

say enough of this in our mosques, community centres, campuses. It is a

small minority and they are very vocal. They are challenging the

Government report saying it is anti-Islam, those arguments need to

be challenged. It is civilic society, decent Muslims need to

stand up. It is interesting you should say that the decent Muslims

of which 99% plus are the case. But within the Muslim communities don't

we need to have much more engagment within the broader parts of the

United Kingdom, we are discussing this with each other? Certainly we

need wider society to discuss this. But when you say 99% of decent

Muslim, the proportion of extremist sympathisers is very high. Some of

those slogans, people won't support terrorism or violence but they will

support the anti-western and pro-Sharia. How do you deal with

that, they might not agree with it whole heartedly but they won't, as

it were turn people in. There is a lot of people like that it has just

been said? You have several problems and you can't tackle all of them and

solve all of them. Some people will actually slip and get through the

net because they are not reported on. Having said that, I don't think

that should be, we need to pursue those people, but we need to do a

lot of other things as well. Where I think we do need to focus our

attention in the light of what the Prime Minister himself has been

saying about extremism is that actually we need to enlarge the

programmes which are directed absolutely specifically at creating

a much more integrated community in this country. That's very important.

Put money in there. One thing you think would make a difference? going

unchallenged. Enforcing existing legislation and taking seriously

people in mosques and universities. Institutions or people promoting

those views is unacceptable. We need to do both. Thank you very much.

Now when David Cameron announced an inquiry where the judge Sir Peter

Gibson, into allegations of British involvement in rendition flights and

the abuse of terror suspect, the Prime Minister said he was

determined to clear things up in order to restore Britain's moral

leadership. That inDwyery was parked -- inquiry was parked last year, so

as not to compromise police investigations, today in the Commons

there were accusations of whitewash when the Government presented

Gibson's interim findings. He said they would be taken up by the

Intelligence and Security Committee instead.

27 questions of what happened in the aftermath of 9/11, how our security

forces acts and whether they were complicit in kidnap and torture. The

first stories of rendition, ghost flights and black prisons trickled

out in the early 2000s, claims the CIA was deliberately moving

prisoners between a network of secret jails, how much did MI6 and

the British Government know about this? In 2010 David Cameron promised

an independent inquiry, led by a judge, to many that question. The

longer these questions remain unanswered the bigger the stain on

our reputation as a country that believes in freedom and fairness and

human rights. Sir Peter Gibson has had access to 20,000 top secret

files. After a two-year review he chooses his words carefully. It does

appear from the documents that the United Kingdom may have been

inappropriately involved in some renditions, that is a very serious

matter. But Sir Peter's inquiry was forced to stop work early, that is

because of what's alleged to have happened in this Libyan prison. The

police are still investigating claims that British spies provided

tip-offs which led to suspects being tortured. The Minister without

Portfolio. Mr Keneth Clarke. In a report to parliament, Sir Peter set

out 27 different questions, the Security Services still need to

answer about rendition. In a U-turn the inquiry will now be by

parliament's Intelligence and Security Committee, and not the

promised independent judge. The Prime Minister was right to have

initiated a judge-led inquiry, I'm sorry to see it go, that would have

been the best way to restore public confidence. You need to bear in mind

that the Intelligence and Security Committee has already done a report

into this in 2007. They came to the conclusion that there were no

problems on this issue of kidnap and torture and they were completely

wrong. The following year the High Court concluded that Britain had

facilitated kidnap and torture. The decision is also a blow to math man,

the Libyan, Hakim Belhadj. He claims MI6 provided information which led

to his kidnap and rendition in 2004. Without having a largely open

process, where those who have been abused get to put their case forward

and we get to cross-examine witnesses, without those measures in

place you won't get to the truth of what really happened. The man who

would lead the new inquiry said the public can have faith in the

committee. The law now requires the intelligence agencies, They have a

statutory duty to provide the information we seek. Our staff for

the first time ever go into MI six, MI5 and can themselves examine the

files. There can be confidence that anything that is relevant we will

see. With 27 different questions to answer, the committee will have to

work hard to prove it can be as independent as the judge-led inquiry

once promised by David Cameron. Menzies Campbell, a member of the

Intelligence Security Committee joins me from Edinburgh, Clare Algar

the executive director of human rights Campaign Group Reprieve, is

here in London. First of all, your manifesto commitment called for a

judge-led inquiry, you have been involved in two previous committee

inquiries that came up with absolutely nothing, that is

hopeless, isn't it? I wouldn't say that at all. The conclusions reached

on previous occasions were based on the information that was made

aveilable to the committee -- available to the committee. There

wasn't the opportunity to examine the 20,000 documents that Sir Peter

Gibson's preliminary inquiry has examined. And the powers of the

committee at that time were quite different as Malcolm Rifkind has

just pointed out. These are very different circumstances, obtained at

a time when the judge-led inquiry was promised. They are different

circumstances but the interesting thing as Menzies Campbell said, they

didn't have access to the other information then, which shows that

both the inquiries stood for nothing. Yes, I mean as was

mentioned earlier, our client Hakim Belhadj was rendered to Libya in

2004, when Tripoli fell we found a letter in the office of the spy

master Mousa Koussa, signed by the director of MI6, taking personal

credit for the air cargo delivered, and three years later the IOC knows

nothing about it. And the next thing referred to in the report was

referring to Mr Muhammad's case is there is nothing referring to the

case. You know something will happen because it couldn't possibly not

happen now with the raising of the flag? The changes to the ISC can

demand rather than request documents and the ISC was previously made up

of people chosen by the Prime Minister is now people nominated by

the Prime Minister and then elected. It doesn't seem that it will have

the credibility that the Prime Minister was going for with the

judge-led panel. Society has Prior to becoming a member of the

Intelligence Security Committee I had great interest into this, I was

the first one to raise the question of whether Diego Garcia was used for

that purpose. I have a strong interest in asking the kind of

questions necessary to get to the truth. On that point let me

interrupt just a second. Based on the 20,000 documents. On that very

point you are making about rendition, one of the Reprieve

reports said there were 107 drops by CIA flights? I asked questions about

that as well and didn't get what I now understand to be satisfactory

answers. But just remember this, the claim of whitewash is easy to make,

it is difficult to disprove until the work is carried out and there is

no other Select Committee of parliament which has as its

membership, among its membership three QCs and a former cabinet

secretary, all of with experience of cross-examination, and in the

cabinet secretary's case a real and intimate understanding of how

intelligence is treated in Government. Yet when you have the

opportunity to cross-examine the three spy chiefs, they were handed

the questions in advance and they weren't exactly grilled. That was

the very first time that any spy chief had appeared in public. Not

surprisingly they were concerned that they did not reveal classified

information, and so too was the committee. But we have broken that

particular ice and you can be certain that people like myself and

others on the committee will not spare any service chief or any

officer of any service if we feel it is necessary in order to get to the

truth. It is a credibility point. That was the moment when the

newly-fledged ISC was there. A Tory MP called it a pantomime. We have to

stop it there, thank you very much, we will be returning to this.

Back to the news that part of the ceiling of the Apollo Theatre in

London has collapsed urgh a performance. What is the latest now?

Kirsty, we know now that there have been no fatalities from this. We

have the total number of injured, 85 is total, 81 walking wounded that is

cuts and bruises and the like, four more seriously injured but nothing

life-threatening. Those four have been taken to three hospitals around

London, including UCH and St Thomas's. When I got here just

before 9.00, it was a chaotic scene, there was a lot of police shouting

about people getting behind cordons, thousands of people out partying in

Soho as they do, trying to bring that to order. Sigh witnesses

telling accounts of what happened with so the on their faces. faces.

00 packed into the theatre watching The Curious Incident of the Dog In

The Nightime, four minutes in there was a cracking sound and dust came

down into the ceiling, and quarter or a third of the ceiling fell down

on to the stalls, not the higher circles, it is a fairly steep

theatre it fell on to the stalls, there was dust everywhere and people

started moving out. Within three minutes the police were on the scene

taking things in hand. Some of the injured were taken to the Gielguld

theatre and other theatres to be attended to. I have seen a crane

going up to the roof of the theatre trying to fix it. Vladimir Putin

waited until the very end of his press conference today confirming

that the amnesty for Russian prisoners would include the two

jailed members of Pussy Riot, and the 30-member crew of the Greenpeace

protest ship before dropping a bombshell, that he intended to on

freeing the former oligarch Mikhail Khodorkovsky. It is to ease tensions

ahead of the winter Olympics in Sochi, what will be the future of

Khodorkovsky, once one of the world's richest men. Several weeks

after my arrest I was informed that President Putnam Putin had decided I

was going to have to slurp gruel for 20 years. The words of Mikhail

Khodorkovsky spoken at a German conference for human rights last

month titled From Russia With Love. For me, like anybody, it is hard to

live in jail and I do not want to die there. He spoke those words in a

court in 2010, facing charges of imbeling $20 billion. New charges

and a new trial, he had already been in jail for seven years.

Khodorkovsky got rich after his bank lent money to a Russian state-owned

oil company, these loans were later swapped for underpriced shares, soon

worth billions, before he turned 40 he was the richest man in Russia.

But in February 2003 Khodorkovsky went on national TV and made

allegations of high-level corruption. His fate was sealed. I'm

also here as a son of Mikhail Khodorkovsky.

circumstances of a humanitarian nature. His mother is ill, and I

think that bearing in mind those circumstances it is possible to make

that decision and I will soon sign an order about his pardon. With the

winter Olympics in Sochi coming up, sceptics may believe that President

Putin is concerned about avoiding another boycott of a Russian

Olympics. I'm joined by the former Prime Minister who knows Mr

Khodorkovsky and was the former Prime Minister of Russia in the

early 20000s. Good evening -- 2000s, what calculation do you think that

Putnam is making by releasing Mikhail Khodorkovsky? Good evening,

I think the decision which Mr Putin announced today is absolutely

connected to the up coming Olympic Games, in fact Mr Khodorkovsky

should be an announcing his sentence period next July, six or seven

months ahead, but Mr Putin made a decision to release, in fact to

pardon him, and explaining that there was a special request almost

as it was a recognition of guilt, that was absolutely not. This

cynical approach of Mr Putin is very clear. Of course everyone who just

quite is indifferent to what is going on in Russia, my country,

understands that the whole criminal sentence was fabricated by

authorities and Mr Putin was just on top of all these special operations.

What do you think will happen now to Mr Khodorkovsky, do you think he

will try to pursue a political career again, do you think he will

stay in Russia, do you think there have been conditions put on his

pardon? We don't know whether conditions were put, but in fact it

was about his being in politics. He was never in politics, but I think

he will continue to do what he did before his arrest, just trying to

finance and to support civil society developments, different causes, used

to support young people, internet involvement and development of the

internet over all Russia. But he was publicly critical of Vladimir Putin.

Do you think now he will have to keep his mouth shut? I think he will

continue to stay on the critical positions. Of course not in such a

harsh manner as we in the real opposition do, but in any case he

will continue to stay on this platform. You and he are friends and

you spoke on behalf of his oil company, you spoke on behalf of him.

He supports you I understand. Do you think that you will call on his

support again if indeed you decide to run for office again? We were

never friends, Mr Khodorkovsky was one of the biggest and richest

people when I was Prime Minister at that time. We had very tough talks

when we launched our tax reforms and Mr Khodorkovsky in the beginning was

afraid of these reforms. But later understanding that we were very

consistent in our pursuing the reform he started to support. And

then in the end he became just I would say a supporter of reforms in

Russia, but, in fact, I knew what happened at that time and I was

witnessing in a court proceedings Mr Khodorkovsky was not guilty and the

whole operation was fabricated by the authorities. That is clear for

all educated people. Thank you very much for joining us. President

Obama's health care reform was designed to extend health insurance

to the estimated 15% of Americans without it. But the roll-out has

been beset by problems, not least a website proved insufficient to the

task. It has suffered more than technical problems, some

Republican-run states like Mississippi have rejected the plan

but also federal money that will come with it.

We travelled across Mississippi asking how Obamacare is being

received in one of America's poorest and sickest states. Oak Hill Baptist

Church is a little different for the south. It is not the funk or the

faith that sets them apart, it is that fried chicken is banned from

church socials, in a state where they are evangelical about fried

food. # All right Meet Pastor Michael

Minor, a man filled with more than just religious passion. He wants to

improve his congregation's health in a state where obesity, heart disease

and cancer rates are sky high, he sees signing people up to Obamacare

as a spiritual duty, a cure for his congregations' hurt.

# Are you glad # That God loves you

# You, you and you # He loves you.

If you don't have health insurance it hurts you three ways, you hurt

mentally because you worry about not having insurance, you hurt

physically because you are not having the check-ups you need. And

spiritually because you are wondering what about your

relationship with God, if you are not careful you are start wondering

to yourself why would God let me wander into this spot where I have

no coverage. There is an aching disappointment here that the

Republicans, who control the state, will have nothing to do with

Obamacare, which makes it far more difficult for people to sign up.

Some see old forces at work. That ain't no news for Mississippi. Why

do you think it is? Because of the prejudice that we have in

Mississippi, not because of the care, it is because of the black man

that is trying to bring this affordable care. And Mississippi has

always, I was born in Mississippi, but Mississippi has always been

prejudiced. The land where the Blues began, still has its share of woes,

in the poorest state in the USA, the cost of health insurance under the

President's plan will be higher than in much richer places because of the

bad health. One in five don't have health cover at the moment and the

state's opposition puts off insurance companies joining in. Only

two are interested. One of them is taking its office out on the road,

but in the morning we spent with them, not a single person showed any

interest. There is overwhelming hostility to Obamacare, practical

and politically. It contradicts a free country. Being made to have

health insurance? Being made to have everything. I don't see anything

wrong with it, it is a good programme, it is the fact you have

to have it. I like what I have got, and the price I have got, the prices

don't sound good. You think you will pay more? Much more. The hostility

of younger and fitter peop could doom Obamacare if not enough sign up

by next spring it won't work. We need to be doing what we need to do

ourselves, I don't think we need to go through anybody else to say we

need health care, if we need health care we need to say for ourself that

we need it. Have you got health care? No, Sir. Are you going to sign

up? I probably pay the fine. Many doctors won't have anything to do

with Obamacare either, or even existing plans for the retired and

poor. They say they don't get paid enough. Dr Eric Richardson said

patients will end up paying more, doctors will get less and only the

insurance companies will get rich. But he also thinks it is plain

wrong. You know you are talking about 250 years of the constitution

in the United States and now this is being told to the American citizens,

you must buy health care, and that's a new law thrust on each individual

by the Government. There is a degree of contention there. Would it be

great to have coverage for all Americans, is it a good idea to --

yes. Is it a good idea to make it a law I'm not so sure. Just as the

mighty Mississippi carves its way down the centre of the United

States, so Obamacare divides this country politically. It too has the

potential and the power to transform the land cape all around it. It will

be this President's legacy, and whether it succeeds or fails in

states like this will be hugely important for the party and his

reputation. This is what a Tea Party, party looks like. A festive

gathering to meet state senator, Chris McDaniel, he's taking on his

own party's establishment and challenging the Republican senator

who have had the job for 30 years. What is so wrong with trying to take

care of the health care system without a centralised Government

doing it. He's thinking blocking Obamacare and fighting it all the

way is a vote-winner. He needs to honour or constitution, just because

something is a good idea you don't violate the constitution. You have

to ask the question can it be afforded and administered

effectively and efficiently, what we have seen it is so structurally

unsound and deficient it can't be. Others think conservatives fear a

potentially popular programme. Let's be honest, a lot of people on the

other side of the political spectrum they do recognise it is something

that literally could change a whole generation. Because you want to make

something look bad because if it turns out other people like it who

will they give credit to. Perhaps the President's plan will end up

being praised in America's sickest state. But the south is riven,

suspicion, hostility and poverty may combine to put redemption beyond

reach for Obamacare. A telescope designed to create the

most accurate map of our galaxy and discover unknown planets and

asteroids blasted into space. Gaia, the personification of the God that

gave birth to the universe, is on a mission to map the stars. And

British scientist have been on the forefront. At nine. Ten GMT Gaia

took to the skies from French Guiana. Its five-year mission, to

unlock the secrets of the Milky Way. At a distance of one. Five million

kilometres beyond earth. It will measure the brightness of a billion

stars. Creating a three dimensional map of our galaxy and beyond. On

board Gaia is the biggest camera ever flown into space, along with

two optical telescopes. Together they are capable of measuring the

position of the stars extraordinarily accurately. So

accurately it could see the equivalent to the width of a human

hair at 2,000kms. Except, of course it won't be looking for human hairs,

but big stars at even bigger distances. The project, 20 years in

the making has been described as the biggest "selfie" in history. I'm

joined by the senior scientific adviser in the European Space

Agency's directorate in science and robotic exploration, who joins us

from the Nethelands. T How will it transform things? As you said we

will be measuring a billions stars in the Milky Way extremely

accurately, not just the positions but how they move. It aknows us to

make a move year, we can run the movie forwards and see how the Milky

Way will turn out in billions of years time, and more importantly we

can run it backwards and see where all the stars, a billion stars, 1%

of all the stars in the galaxy, where they came from. We know the

Milky Way didn't form as one thing, it formed out of pieces, out of

smaller galaxies that merged together. In that coming together,

they left a trail in our Milky Way today, which we can see in the

movements of the stars today. Therefore we can trace the history

of the Milky Way with Gaia. Is it about archaeology or an endeavour

that will make a difference? It is partly archaeology, but in order to

be able to run this movie backwards we have to make one of the biggest

star at logs ever made. That will enable enormous new discoveries to

be made in atrophysics across many domains, we will be discovering lots

of new planets going around other stars, because by measure measuring

the motions of the stars we will spot some of them that might be

wobbling with planets going around them. We will find asteroids in the

Solar System, near to us, some on a collision course with the earth.

That is good to know about. We will find supernova, exploding stars and

things we hadn't thought of at this point. How likely is it that we will

find signs of life? Well Gaia is not designed to do that, what it will do

is find lots of new planetary systems, planets going around stars,

elsewhere in the Milky Way. Those will become prime targets for

follow-up observations with other observe trees, either on the ground

or in 2018 the James Webb telescope, a big problem we are working on with

NASA. When there will be the first results? The satellite is on its way

to a point one. Five million kilometres away. We will see numbers

soon to check the instruments out. Anything it discovers in the first

few months, rapidly changing or varying objects we will have those

out straightaway. They will be open to the community. The big catalogue

and final result will take us a full five years plus some data

processing, it is a colossal amount of data we take. We have to analyse

it all in one go to make one big map of the galaxy we live in. It is a

little while coming, we have waited 20 years already, we can wait a few

more. That's all for tonight, join

Victoria for our last show of 2013 tomorrow night. Before we go Marylin

Monroe may have been brought back tonight for Christmas to advertise

an iconic perfume, Elvis Presley may have done better, his voice coming

from the mouth of a Canadian teenager. He has been a superstar

and a media dearlying. # When those blue snowflakes

# Start falling # That's when those blue

# Memories are calling # You'll be doing all right with

Christmas so white # But I'll be blue, blue, blue

Christmas A cold night tonight, with showers, it may be icy for the

morning rush hour, generally a dry and bright start to Friday with

sunshine. But another batch of wet and windy weather will come sweeping

across the UK. Looking like a fairly missable afternoon across Northern

Ireland