Browse content similar to 30/01/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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She has no intention of leaving America. What happens next? We have | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
a new interview with her as she awaited the verdict. I am I'm | :00:21. | :00:27. | |
definitely going back willingly. They will have to catch me and pull | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
me back kicking and screaming into a prison I don't deserve to be in. | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
It has dominated the headlines but is the cost of living crisis over. | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
We have new figures released in the last few minutes, and some guests to | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
crunch the numbers. The Republican President, Roosevelt | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
was a hero to many, and still is to Ed Miliband. Why do British MPs have | :00:48. | :00:54. | |
American Idols? We will ask Roosevelt's biographer. | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
The President of the Ukraine has gone sick, leaving the ragtag of | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
protestors. At the crucial moment in Ukraine's | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
history everyone is asking the same question, is thehead of state sick | :01:10. | :01:16. | |
or has there been a coup. In an exclusive Newsnight interview we | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
speak to one of the people supposed to be in charge. | :01:20. | :01:27. | |
Good evenings, once again Amanda Knox and herit Italian former | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, have been found guilty of the you are | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
inneder of -- murder of Meredith Kercher. The Appeal Court upheld | :01:37. | :01:44. | |
convictions that were overturned in 2011. Since then she has been in the | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
US where she is now in Seattle. Tonight she said she was frightened | :01:51. | :01:59. | |
and saddened by the unjust verdict. Meredith Kercher's brother and | :02:00. | :02:01. | |
sister were in court again today for the latest round in the battle for | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
justice. Italian national, Raffaele Sollecito, originally accused of her | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
killing was in court for retry his former codefendant, US citizen, | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
Amanda Knox, did not return to the country. In 2007, 21-year-old | :02:15. | :02:27. | |
Meredith was found dead at her flat with 46 stab wounds. The pair were | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
the next day and prosecuted, prosecutors tried to prove Meredith | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
had died in a sex game gone wrong. Rudy Guede was sentenced to 16 years | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
in prison for the murder in a separate trial. Defendants are | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
acquitted. The convictions against Knox and Sollecito was overturned | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
after concerns were raised about procedures used to gather DNA | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
evidence. But last year the Supreme Court quashed the acquittals citing | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
inconsistencies in the case. Whether or not Knox and Sollecito will | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
appeal the decision, or whether Knox will be extradited from the US. The | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
Kercher family can only hope at last they are closer to finding out the | :03:11. | :03:13. | |
truth about what happened to Meredith. The Guardian secured | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
access to Amanda Knox as she awaited the verdict of the retrial. With her | :03:19. | :03:26. | |
heart in her throat, she said. A lot of the times when I'm interacting | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
with somebody and they don't recognise me immediately and they | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
ask me questions, hair, so what major are you, a creative writing | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
major. They are asking am I senior or freshman. And I'm like a senior. | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
They are like how old are you, 26, what have you been doing to take so | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
long, I'm like I was studying abroad. Really where were you | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
studying abroad in Italy, that must have been awesome, I'm like ahhhh, | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
explain, and it's like, I was in prison. How close do you think the | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
Amanda from the tabloid, or the British tabloids in particular was | :04:04. | :04:11. | |
to you? There was this portrayal of me as being sex obsessed and drug | :04:12. | :04:20. | |
addled and a manipulator and a liar. Being in this complete criminal | :04:21. | :04:28. | |
control of myself and other people. That is absolutely foreign to | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
everything that I am. If I was a stranger coming to you and saying, I | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
know you, you're Amanda Knox, you murdered Meredith Kercher, what | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
would you the two facts that you would tell me that make it | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
impossible for you to have committed that crime? Meredith was my friend, | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
and I would never have done anything like that, no history of crime. It | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
is just not me. And two there is no trace of me in that room. So how | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
would I have committed it? You cannot commit a murder and then like | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
have all of this evidence, all of this blood everywhere, all of the | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
evidence of the person who did it and that not be me, and then say, | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
yeah I was the one who plunged the knife, it is literally impossible. | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
What would it mean to you if you were found guilty. Well, it would | :05:19. | :05:32. | |
feel like a train wreck. There is not a lot I can do after this | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
appeal. They would order my arrest and the Italian Government would | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
approach the American Government and say extradite her. And I don't know | :05:43. | :05:51. | |
what would happen. I'm still counting on an acquittal. I don't | :05:52. | :06:00. | |
know if this story is out, I think it is, you said if they ask for you | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
to return, if you are found guilty you're not going back there? I'm not | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
willingly going back, no. I'm not going to... The quote was "I will | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
he' be a fugutive". What I said was I will technically be considered a | :06:18. | :06:25. | |
fugutive. I don't know what I'm going to do. I won't go willingly, | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
they will have to catch me and pull me back, kicking and screaming into | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
a prison that I don't deserve to be in. Amanda's friend, Madison moved | :06:34. | :06:40. | |
to Perugia to support her when she was in prison. I'm on my way to see | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
both of them in Amanda's flat. I want to see her with someone she | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
trusts. At any point in that first interrogation think you needed a | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
lawyer? I asked them if I needed lawyer, because I didn't understand | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
if they were having a problem with me or if they were, like, they made | :07:01. | :07:07. | |
it seem like they knew that I had witnessed the murder and that I knew | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
who the murderer was, and I just needed to tell them. I was either | :07:13. | :07:21. | |
lying or I had -- amnesia, I wasn't lying, I started to believe I had | :07:22. | :07:29. | |
amnesia, otherwise I couldn't believe what was happening to me. | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
What was it like? It is a very specific process of how it worked. I | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
knew what I did that night, I remembered it, I was with Raffaele | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
Sollecito, we had dinner, we did what we always do on all the nights | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
together. Then they started questioning me about that and making | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
me doubt what I was telling them. They said OK if you had dinner at | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
this time, what were you doing at this time and so between seven and | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
eight you are doing this what about between eight and nine, and what | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
about between nine and ten. And when you have, I kept telling them, look | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
I don't know what time I was doing things, all I can tell you is I left | :08:07. | :08:15. | |
my house, me and afael went to his house, we were hanging out and | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
listening to music, I remember reading e-mail, we talked, we ate | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
dinner, that is what we z I am a telling you this. They made it seem | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
because I couldn't chronologically put everything in order in time made | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
it seem like I had something wrong with my memory. They said if you | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
can't remember what happened then there is something wrong with you | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
and you are lying, and we know that you are lying. They told me Rafael | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
said I wasn't. There that completely threw me off, I couldn't understand | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
why he would say that? Which also wasn't true. When I named Patrick is | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
when I finally just broke, I thought oh my God it must be true what I'm | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
saying, that I'm traumatised and I experienced whatever it is that it | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
is, I must have witnessed my friend's murder some how, and I'm | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
scared and all of a sudden like that idea, it was already bad enough when | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
I had to go into the house and they asked me to identify knives that | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
could have killed her. And then all of a sudden the idea that I must | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
have witnessed it and now I'm traumatised enough to not even | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
remember it. To all of a sudden be drawn into this horrible idea of | :09:28. | :09:34. | |
what happened was so completely overwhelming that I just wept for I | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
don't know how long, I was delirious. It was only after they | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
had all left and rushed off and there was only one of them kind of | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
sitting there, eyeing me, making sure that I didn't do anything. I | :09:48. | :09:55. | |
was sitting there a long time and thinking, trying to make sense of | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
what just happened. I felt horrible, I didn't even know what to think any | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
more. I was so confused and all I wanted was my mom. I kept asking can | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
I please call my mom, no. My mom is coming here I need to talk to my | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
mom. She was going to be arriving at the train station that morning. I | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
kept hearing my phone ring. I had phone on my desk, it was my mom | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
calling, I knew it was my mom calling, she was going to freak out. | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
It was bad enough growing up when I came home late from school and she | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
didn't know where I was. But my friend had just been murdered and | :10:37. | :10:39. | |
now I'm not answering my cellphone and it is right there and I want to | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
answer and they tell me I can't. And I'm freaking out and I just want to | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
talk to my mom. I think one of the most difficult things for you has | :10:49. | :10:56. | |
been whatever the evidence has been there has been no way of swaying | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
Meredith's family. The idea that they believe that justice for me | :11:04. | :11:10. | |
automatically means injustice for Meredith horrifies me. Because that | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
is impossible for them to live with and I hate that idea. I think they | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
have come round from thinking you were the killer to, not thinking | :11:22. | :11:28. | |
that but they do think there was something that you knew that there | :11:29. | :11:38. | |
was something. I had so many people tell me that, how do you think you | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
can overcome that, it can only be rooted in your confession? And I | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
really believe that is the case that people think there must be something | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
wrong with me. Just like I thought there must be something wrong with | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
me. Because how could anyone do that? But again, the only thing I | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
can do is testify to what happened to me. And hope that people could | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
take a step back from their emotional investment and try to | :12:11. | :12:17. | |
empathise. Amanda Knox, well we have the Rome correspondent for the | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
Sunday Times and the author of Death in Perugia. . Are you surprised by | :12:22. | :12:32. | |
the verdict or not? No, because when the Supreme Court ordered this new | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
trial it was actually pointing towards a conviction, it was tearing | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
to shreds the previous acquittal and the whole way this trial has gone. | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
It was indicating that this was going towards a conviction. Tonight | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
again Amanda Knox is in, by law, a killer, what do you think it has | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
been like for the Kercher family. Has it given them, do you think, | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
today will it have given them any sense of finality or not? When I | :13:00. | :13:08. | |
spoke to them after the last time that Amanda and Raffaele Sollecito | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
were convicted. As they said at this time it was not a time to celebrate. | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
What is important for them to find out what actually happened. Part of | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
that for them is having a definitive ruling, because now this is not a | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
definitive ruling it will now go back to the supreme Court. I'm not | :13:28. | :13:34. | |
sure the Italian courts will give the family an explanation of how and | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
why Meredith died. As you heard from Knox, she will be kicking and | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
screaming before she leaves America, she says the Italians will now put | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
warrant out for her arrest. There is a very old, well from the 1980s | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
extradition agreement between America and Italy. Will that be | :13:53. | :13:59. | |
automatic? It is not automatic, it is pretty hard to predict, but in | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
most cases requests for extradition are met. There have been some | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
exceptions, there was some CIA agents who kidnapped a Muslim cleric | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
in Milan, the extradition was refused for them N this case it is a | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
decision for John Kerry, the Secretary of State. There is quite a | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
strong media campaign in the states for Amanda's innocence, which will | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
go into top gear to block the extradition. It is a choice for the | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
Obama administration to disappoint an important ally like Italy or | :14:34. | :14:36. | |
whether to go ahead with the extradition. As far as the media | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
campaign is concerned in Italy tonight, what is the response from | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
newspapers and television? Well it has been, it is a huge story here, | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
it will be all over the front pages tomorrow morning. I think we can say | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
that the coverage generally reflects the general belief in Italy for | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
public opinion is that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are builty of | :14:59. | :15:06. | |
-- guilty of killing Meredith, despite their protesting their | :15:07. | :15:09. | |
innocence. How long a process will it be? Several months. It will go | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
back to the Supreme Court, and then Amanda and Sollecito will get | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
another chance to argue their case. Difficult to predict these rulings. | :15:19. | :15:25. | |
Given the Supreme Court had previously trashed the acquittal, it | :15:26. | :15:28. | |
would be surprising if the Supreme Court went back on what it had ruled | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
previously, one could expect a new definitive conviction this time. | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
Thank you very much indeed. A central plank of Ed Miliband's | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
economic attack in the coalition has been his convention -- contention | :15:43. | :15:49. | |
that the economic growth figures might have been better than they | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
were last year. However a new report from the Institute of Fiscal Studies | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
released a few moments ago shows the latest analysis that shows living | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
standards are dramatically down before the global financial crisis | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
hit, the fall in household incomes has now come to a halt. Ealing Green | :16:06. | :16:19. | |
in west London isn't exactly down at heel. A four-bed house costs a | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
million pounds here. During the crisis the boutiques and posh | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
restaurants gave way to... Posh charity shops. Surely it wasn't here | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
that the crisis hit hardest? Remember how those with the biggest | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
shoulders were supposed to bear the biggest burden, if you take | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
everything happening to income, tax and benefits, and if you assume | :16:44. | :16:46. | |
everyone has faced the same rise in the cost of living. Everything they | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
pay for, then that turns out to be true. The people who have been | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
squeezed hardest are the richest. Here is what happened to real | :16:56. | :16:58. | |
incomes after tax and benefit changes, assuming price rises were | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
the same for everyone. The richest saw their incomes shrink by 9% since | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
the financial crisis began, those in the middle were squeezed by 6%, and | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
because benefits went up with inflation, the poorest tenth were | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
only squeezed by 2. 4%. If you look straight forwardedly at what has | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
happened to people's incomes, compare it with the average rate of | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
inflation, it looks like those at the top of the income distribution | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
have done quite a lot worse than people towards the bottom of the | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
distribution. That reflects the fact that wages have been going down | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
relative to prices and at least until this year most benefits have | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
been going up in line with prices. Are you feeling squeezed | :17:40. | :17:47. | |
income-wise? Not particularly no. But I have to tighten my belt. I'm | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
not better off but I'm not really squeezed. Are you feeling squeezed? | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
Completely. How? Wages haven't gone up for the past five years. | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
Wage-freeze at the moment, that's right. At least five years. I don't | :18:01. | :18:07. | |
feel things have got better. You only find the richest are squeezed | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
hardest if price rises are the same for everyone. The rise in the cost | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
of living hasn't been the same for rich and poor. The poorer you are | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
the more of your income you are to spend on food and fuel, which have | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
gone up a lot. So the inflation rate for the poor has been higher than | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
for the rich. When you take that into account the picture of who has | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
been squeezed hardest looks very different. The Institute forcal | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
Studies says if you count in those different rates of inflation the | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
real squeeze on living standards was looser for the richest and tighter | :18:38. | :18:44. | |
for the poorest, we were all squeezed as hard as each other. If | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
you then look at people's differing living costs you get a bit of a | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
different pattern. Because people on high-levels of income have seen very | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
often their mortgage rates go down f they have a mortgage, and because | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
food rises and energy prices are gone up very fast, and that's a big | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
part of the budget of poorer households, you see inflation has | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
hit the poorer groups much harder than it has hit the richer groups. | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
If you take account of that it is much more like the reduction in real | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
incomes or living standards as being flat across the distribution. If | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
wages have already stopped falling in real terms, can we expect them to | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
rise any time soon? Wages this year are going to go up by a bit but not | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
very much. The rise of things that people mainly notice, energy, | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
transport, food, rent, they are going to go up by more than the | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
average. So, yes, the worst is over and things are recovering, but I | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
think most people won't notice it very much. The squeeze isn't over | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
for everyone, average numbers mask great differences between private | :19:44. | :19:46. | |
and public, between young and old, those on the bottom will now see | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
incomes rise by just 1%, and the smaller your income the more it | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
hurts when it shrinks. It is a feature of modern politic in this | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
country that party leaders hark, not to past British politicians for | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
inspiration, but rather American greats, or not so greats, | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
particularly in the case of George Osborne, William Hague and Michael | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
Howard, LBJ, and Gordon Brown to JFK, but in Ed Miliband's case the | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
evidence of his admiration for a previous American President is for | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
one his of the repeated phrase, producer not capitalism is inspired | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
by Roosevelt. The man who promised a square deal for every man, great or | :20:27. | :20:35. | |
small, rich our poor. Americans reveer their constitution, their | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
Republic and their President, Roosevelt more than most. Why is Ed | :20:40. | :20:46. | |
Miliband so taken with him? Roosevelt was an action man, an | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
explorer, a big game hunter. The first President to ride in a motor | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
car, and the first head of any state to fly in a plane. Well done, Sir, | :20:54. | :21:02. | |
great news. And a square deal for every man and every woman in the | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
United States. He came to the White House as the champion of what he | :21:07. | :21:15. | |
called a square deal for every American. You hear that in Ed | :21:16. | :21:23. | |
Miliband's talk. He was a big Government robust regulation man, | :21:24. | :21:26. | |
one of his first acts as President was to give a 20,000-word speech | :21:27. | :21:33. | |
urging Congress to rein in the power of corporations or trust, he would | :21:34. | :21:36. | |
be the trust-busting President, standing up for the little guy, the | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
ordinary citizen, against the power of big money and corporate greed. Is | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
that what inspired Ed Miliband. Should corporate Britain be worried? | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
It was very interesting, so Ed Miliband said he would love to be | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
like Teddy Roosevelt. Presumably he doesn't want to hunt elephants or | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
the Amazon jungle. He loves the sense of a man commanding, a huge | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
commanding personality who brings change. I think in a sense what | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
disappointing people maybe about President Obama is that sense that | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
having said "yes we can", it don't look like we can, we have a general | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
sense of powerlessness, all through Europe and the United States, that | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
political leaders are not achieving what people want. America is this | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
huge democracy and is a symbol of hope. A winner Mr President, the | :22:22. | :22:27. | |
1985... Public veneration of the office, if not always the person of | :22:28. | :22:30. | |
the President is played out in popular culture. In the West Wing | :22:31. | :22:38. | |
President Bartlett is always the hero of the piece, noble, selfless, | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
wise. This is great job. In Britain not so much. Not only do you have a | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
locking bent husband and a locking daughter that gets taken to school | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
to a locking sedan sharks you are also locking mental. We treat our | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
political leaders with mockery, they are incompetent, self-serving, it is | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
Marsly. You are a locking omnishambles, that is what you are. | :23:03. | :23:10. | |
Looking to America for inspiration goes long ago. Tony Blair and his | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
first term as Prime Minister read Jonathan Friedland's celebration of | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
American political values Bring Home The Revolution. There was a period | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
in those first new Labour years when he and Gordon Brown and others were | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
very excited by the idea of taking the best of the ideas in America. | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
Bill Clinton was President, they liked that. There was a ready | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
traffic in American ideas. Often forgotten, 1993 when they were just | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
still minor members of the Shadow Cabinet, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown | :23:44. | :23:46. | |
got on a plane and went to Washington to see the new Clinton | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
America that was forming, weeks after Clinton was inaugurated. There | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
was an excitement about it. A sense that America had what Britain | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
lacked, it was forward-looking and go-getting and there was something | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
deep in the constitution that explained that and they wanted a | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
piece of it. Margaret Thatcher once said that in her lifetime all our | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
problems had come from mainland Europe and all the solutions from | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
the English-speaking peoples across the world. America offers us Teddy | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
Roosevelt as a guiding light. How brightly will it shine in our far | :24:21. | :24:30. | |
from ref rent political discourse? I'm joined now by the legendary | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
American biographer whose latest work is a biography of | :24:36. | :24:48. | |
RooseveltORCEDWHITE I'm joined now by the legendary American biographer | :24:49. | :24:50. | |
whose latest work is a biography of Roosevelt, Welcome to the programme. | :24:51. | :24:52. | |
All the special relationships between Margaret Thatcher and Ronald | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
Regan and others. What do you make of this harking back to history for | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
British politicians as some kind of, I don't know, intellectual ballast | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
or exemption later, brownie points for British politicians who want to | :25:05. | :25:18. | |
emulate American Presidents in For a biographer like me I love that you | :25:19. | :25:21. | |
are looking back to the past. There is a turn between the 20th century | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
and today. You had after the Industrial Revolution and now after | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
the technological revolution a huge gap between the rich and the poor, | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
huge concentrations of industries, oil, steel and banking and Teddy | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
Roosevelt comes on the scene with enormous energy and a British | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
Viscount said he had seen two tremendous forces of nature in | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
America, Niagara falls and Teddy Roosevelt. He uses that to say he | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
wants a fair deal, a square deal for everyone, rich and poor. He broke up | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
the trusts and got into food and drugs problems, because people had | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
not unsanitary meat and inlicensed drugs, and he became enormously | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
popular as a result. He was saving capitalism from itself. Saving | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
capitalism from what it had become in the guilded age. The Ed Miliband | :26:11. | :26:18. | |
idea is he doing the same for the 20th century. Would Roosevelt have | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
recognised the phrase "producer rather than predator capitalism"? | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
Absolutely, he said he will be good to corporations as long as they are | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
not predatory, if they are going against people then I'm going | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
against them. That made him have perfect pitch for the time. It makes | :26:40. | :26:42. | |
sense for Labour leader to say I want to use Government to make | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
markets work so, that capitalism works. When it is unfair I will go | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
against them. Of course the case of Ed Miliband, a centre left Labour | :26:51. | :26:58. | |
leader, you know it gives you your book to all his friends, and is he | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
right about this, is he hanging on to this need for a Republican hero, | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
that is a message can you imagine the British people actually | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
accepting? Except that radios svelted is an unusual -- Roosevelt | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
is an unusual Republican hero, he was fighting the old guard in the | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
party, trying to bring them into the modern age. It makes sense, as I say | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
it is great thing for leaders to find some sort of models in the | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
past. History teaches us things. If you have to start all over again | :27:28. | :27:30. | |
then you are not learning from the past. It is interesting, can you | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
imagine American politicians looking to British history for their | :27:36. | :27:42. | |
exemplars? You would hope so, I would hope if we were in a moment we | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
needed a Winston Churchill, I would bring him back from the dead in two | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
seconds, he's my hero. It seems more one-sided from your point of view, | :27:54. | :27:56. | |
but there has to be reasons to look at Britain as well. We can learn | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
from each other, the pond isn't that big. You have done notable | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
biographies of several American Presidents, another Roosevelt and | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
other people. You have said in a recent interview that your next the | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
only criterion for your next book is it is going to be about a powerful | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
woman. Have you made your choice? Well I am thinking still of that as | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
my next big biography, because I have lived with so many men for so | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
long. I'm going to bring d'oh a book about leadership, bringing all my | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
guys into one room, radios sheltie, JFK and LBJ and figuring out what | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
traits they share together. There is a certain universal quality to | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
leadership, in public or private life. I would like to think I have | :28:41. | :28:43. | |
learned that by spending 40 years with these characters from the White | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
House. We will talk about that IFS report and how it will affect the | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
political debate in a moment. First let's reflect on the Roosevelt-Ed | :28:53. | :29:05. | |
Miliband axis with my guests. Do you echo Ed Miliband's love of Teddy | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
Roosevelt? It is clear that Ed Miliband would like us to be having | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
this conversation about him having a grand vision of remaking capitalism | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
for the 21st century. Ed Miliband's understanding of what's happened in | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
the last ten years or so reflected in the financial crisis is the | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
fundamental structures of our economy are broken it means people | :29:32. | :29:34. | |
aren't getting better off. Too much power is centralised in big | :29:35. | :29:37. | |
corporations. As we just heard that means Government has to intervene | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
for the benefit of those people. Acti Man? Popular leader? Good | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
relationship with the press? There is another element, when Ed Miliband | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
became leader of the Labour Party, he said he would turn the page on | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
new Labour. That then immediately raised the question what is your | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
next project? What is Ed Miliband's Labour Party? The Conservatives | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
would like it to be an old Labour and throwback to the 1970s past. He | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
needs something to say about this project that is something other than | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
Blairism on the one hand and 1970s neo-communism on the other hand. He | :30:12. | :30:17. | |
has alighted on this grand new vision. It is a magnificent book, | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
and if the Labour Party Shadow Cabinet will read it they won't do | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
anything for the next month, it is massive. I'm really respectful of | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
any political leader who reads history and draws from history, I | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
think Teddy Roosevelt is an inspiring character. From one Jew to | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
another, I have to tell Ed Miliband that neither of us are Roosevelt. I | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
don't for a moment think he is. Definitely there are stories in | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
there. I have said this to Conservatives about the role the | :30:46. | :30:48. | |
state can play in improving people's lives and the important of dynamism | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
in office. But people do tend to read in these books what they want. | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
I was interested in Best and the Brightest used by Gordon Brown, it | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
was actually a book about how people created the Vietnam War. He was | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
using them as an example, in fact he was missing perhaps the fact that | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
they created a disSAS templet Teddy Roosevelt also through his dynamism, | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
one of the stories in the book is how they break up the progressive | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
movement through Roosevelt's restless pragmatisim. One question I | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
have is whether or not therefore Roosevelt is rightly seen as an | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
idealog or better seen as a pragmatist who saw the problems of | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
his time. The question for Ed Miliband is, is trust-busting the | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
idea of our time? I don't think it is, dynamism has a lot to teach u | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
surely regulation and helping the vulnerable and the poor against big | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
power is very important. But not everything of Roosevelt. He has | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
correctly identified something is people broadly feel there are a lot | :31:48. | :31:50. | |
of forces acting on their lives that means they are no longer in control. | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
A lot of anger and the rage they will be experiencing will be | :31:56. | :31:57. | |
directed against private companies, whether rail or energy. That is a | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
new populisim that Ed Miliband has successfully made his own. Whether | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
it is popular capitalism or not, you have a problem tonight because that | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
study and the new figures show that actually the cost of living crisis | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
has been halted, not such good news for the politics of Ed Miliband? ? | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
It is positive if the Conservatives can say things are moving in the | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
right direction, things are getting better, it hurt but it is working. | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
Getting better not good enough for the Conservatives to make pay out of | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
it? The figures show people have had a real knock, and vulnerable people | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
are feeling it, no Conservative should ignore that finding. In | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
political science and electoral terms all the polls suggest what a | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
really matters is what happens to personal incomes in the last year. | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
The evidence is ambiguous, but the opt mythsic side from the | :32:53. | :32:55. | |
Conservative point of -- optimistic side from the Conservative point of | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
view is things are getting better but you have to feel it. Inflation | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
is hurting poor people much more, energy prices up 60% and food prices | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
30%? This is the problem in the fiscal crisis, one of the reasons I | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
was passionate about the fiscal crisis, when you withdrew from it | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
the poor and vulnerable get hit hardest because they are most | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
reliant on state services. The big danger for Ed Miliband is going into | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
an election saying everything is a crisis and you need a change of | :33:25. | :33:27. | |
Government. People will think it is not bad and getting better. The big | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
danger for the Conservatives is they are fighting campaigns saying to | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
people you are better off than you think you are and they will say we | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
are not. Other plank of Ed Miliband's policy going forward is | :33:40. | :33:42. | |
the vests interest in terms of the unions and changing that. Is that | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
more smoke and mirrors or is it for real? People are not interested in | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
newspaper stories, what happens in their real lives is what really | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
matters. They will believe what they actually feel. That's how they judge | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
politics. They don't follow the stories in and out. These figures | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
really matter. If it is true that personal income growth is going up, | :34:00. | :34:02. | |
then all the political evidence from America is you shouldn't campaign on | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
the economy. Planed is taking -- Ed Miliband is taking a big risking | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
doing that. Breaking the link with the trade unions? People won't | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
engage with the detail of it too much. The danger is it looks like Ed | :34:16. | :34:24. | |
Miliband is having a Conservatives with chat with people in their party | :34:25. | :34:30. | |
and they don't care much. The Ukrainian President Yanukovychian | :34:31. | :34:33. | |
produced a sick note today might believe cynics he's pulling a sicky | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
to remove himself from the crisis's unable to resolve. Caught between | :34:39. | :34:47. | |
Russia bail out and the E US. The protesters were offered a | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
contingency and it was rejected. The cabinet is only allowed to continue | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
in his absence for 60 days. Without a Government Putin won't hand over | :34:55. | :35:01. | |
the badly needed money as the country teeters on bankruptcy. But | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
President Obama's supporting free expression in the Ukraine was | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
mentioned in his State of the Union address. The barricades are more | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
sparsely manned today. But manned they are. These protestors are | :35:16. | :35:26. | |
hardcore, the proclaimers and the implacables, trying to rally the | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
troops. There is no Government concession that will persuade these | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
people to stand down. When will you leave, what will be enough for you | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
to leave the square, to leave these barricades? When our President goes | :35:40. | :35:47. | |
away. And only that? Only that. The policemen guarding the President's | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
offices say they have no idea where he is? At this crucial moment in | :35:53. | :36:01. | |
Ukraine's history everyone is asking the same question. Is the head of | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
state really sick or has there been some sort of a coup? At the | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
barricades the mood is darker now. The protestors suspect a ploy. While | :36:13. | :36:18. | |
Viktor Yanukovych is ill he can't sign legislation so any compromise | :36:19. | :36:26. | |
is on hold. I think he's scared and he doesn't have an exact plan. He's | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
trying to buy time. Exactly. Everyone is buying time here, | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
including the oligarchs who have supported Mr Yanukovych thus far. | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
Now they are trying to figure out is this President a dead duck? Today | :36:41. | :36:47. | |
Yanukovych accused his political opponents of manipulating the | :36:48. | :36:50. | |
demonstrators, of spoking their anger. We tried to visit a Medical | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
Centre, but the protestors turned us away. It is strange, the mood has | :36:56. | :37:04. | |
changed and hardened. One day ago people welcomed us here they were | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
keen to be filmed, now they are saying get out of here. Sheltering | :37:08. | :37:13. | |
inside a makeshift guard post, we met Sergei, a former officer in | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
Ukraine's Interior Ministry forces. The country's first President has | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
warned that Ukraine son the brink -- is on the brink of Civil War. Sergei | :37:24. | :37:30. | |
says his military colleagues agree. TRANSLATION: Some of them are saying | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
they are ready to join us on the streets to demand their rights. They | :37:35. | :37:37. | |
are saying it is the right thing to do. We have all got children and | :37:38. | :37:40. | |
they deserve to have some sort of future, not a Government that is | :37:41. | :37:47. | |
totally corrupt. After yesterday as concessions the opposition put on a | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
show of strength. But there are wider forces at work here, the EU | :37:51. | :37:56. | |
says its assistance will stop until the violence stops. Russia has | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
threatened to withhold bail out money, piling on the economic | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
pressure. On Independence Square this evening we saw protestors | :38:05. | :38:17. | |
replacing tents with wooden huts. These concessions are crumbs tossed | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
from the rich man's table, this man told me. As the politics plays out | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
behind the scenes this stand-off is becoming ever more entrenched. A | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
little earlier I spoke to one of Ukraine's leaders who isn't sick, | :38:33. | :38:40. | |
the Vice President. You are in a situation where your President has | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
gone sick today, you don't have a Prime Minister, is there any chance | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
do you think that the President will actually return to his post? Well | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
the President being sick means that he does have to stay in bed or any | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
way close to medical help. But it doesn't mean that he is not aware of | :38:59. | :39:06. | |
the situation and is not making sure that what needs to be done is being | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
done in this country. The Ukraine is stuck, because it is stuck between | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
Russia to the east and the EU to the west with President Obama also | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
calling for free expression. What are you to do? The thing is that | :39:23. | :39:30. | |
where we are was defined by geography. Where we would like to be | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
is in the political structure of the EU. That is what we tried to | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
achieve. We strived to achieve it for quite a number of years. | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
Including the last four years and the President Yanukovych. The thing | :39:44. | :39:50. | |
is that for that we really had to be much more interconnective in what we | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
would like to achieve. Both the Ukraine and the European Union. And | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
we also need to make sure that there is a balance, balance of interests | :40:00. | :40:05. | |
and understanding of the future, among the Ukraine, EU and Russia. Is | :40:06. | :40:15. | |
the Ukrainian Government scared of Vladimir Putin? They are not scared | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
of Russia of the United States, of the EU, of any of our neighbours and | :40:21. | :40:25. | |
partners. We do engage with all of our neighbours and partners. Because | :40:26. | :40:33. | |
they are important for our future. The Russian market is important for | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
the well being of a very large part of the Ukrainians be it in the east | :40:39. | :40:46. | |
or west. Millions do work there or the temporary basis in Russia and | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
the EU as well. We need to find a solution where everyone would be | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
comfortable with what we have proclaimed as our goal. Going into | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
association with Europe, but on the basis of a very well defined | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
national interest, which should not contradict a long-term view of | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
Europe. At the same time would not scare Russia which believes, for the | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
time being, that these would create a loophole in the custom protection | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
that they believe is so important for their customs union. So that is | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
something. Where we see the solution in tri-lateral negotiations between | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
the Ukraine, Russia and the European Union. It was rejected. Are you | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
absolutely sure, finally, are you absolutely sure, finally, that your | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
country will not descend into Civil War? We need to have a peaceful | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
solution which only can be achieved through dialogue. But this dialogue | :41:45. | :41:51. | |
needs to lead to functionable, efficient Government. Be it through | :41:52. | :41:54. | |
a coalition Government, be it through a change to constitution, | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
everything is now open for discussion. There is an offer for | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
one of the leaders of the opposition to become Prime Minister. The other | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
leader was offered my position. I'm eager to really give him my own | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
functions as they are clearly difficult but also very important to | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
the people of Ukraine. Thank you very much. The Greek poet is known | :42:21. | :42:29. | |
more by repute than by her verse, the aproper racial of the term to | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
mean lesbian love. It was thought that four peoples along with -- | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
poems along with fragments of verse had survived. The discovery of two | :42:40. | :42:45. | |
new poems has transformed what we know about the new Greek poet who | :42:46. | :42:54. | |
composed in the year seven BC. What is your reaction? Suffo is one of my | :42:55. | :43:00. | |
favourite poets of all time, she allows us to get directly into the | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
lives of ancient Greek women, in the middle of the 7th century BC. We | :43:07. | :43:14. | |
have a lot of poems by her which is about lesbian love, and another one | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
which is about being a responsible interest to brothers. There is two | :43:19. | :43:26. | |
new poem, how much does that excite new study? It will excite a great | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
deal of new studio, we have so many stance is a, a lot of what -- | :43:33. | :43:40. | |
stanza, this really changes how we think about women on the island and | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
in the Aegean sea in this period of time. It shows awful lot of ancient | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
sources said she was always talking about her brothers, a lot of people | :43:52. | :43:54. | |
didn't believe that. These brothers are named in the poem, we know from | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
other sources the names are correct? She has an elder broth that seems to | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
be a bit of a bad lad, he has gone to sea and responsibly left her back | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
at home. He may or may not be off with the famous court sap in Egypt. | :44:11. | :44:18. | |
She's worried about his return? People promises he's coming back. | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
She goes through five different emotion, she says stop harassing me | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
with gossip you don't know, you should tell me to go to the Queen, | :44:28. | :44:37. | |
you will hear that word Heran, the Queen Hera, she says it is better to | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
be calm and leave it rest in the lap of the gods. My younger brother I'm | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
worried about, we want him to be OK so we will be safe and sound on | :44:47. | :44:55. | |
Lesbos. She's your favourite poet, in the canon of poetry from that | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
period is she a great poet? Absolutely, Suffo invents the love | :45:00. | :45:06. | |
song. She invents the subjective "I" voice, where you say how you feel in | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
love. She is the first great lyric love poet in western culture. The | :45:12. | :45:17. | |
fact that it is 2,700 years ago, can you imagine being able to listen to | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
the voice of a British woman from 700 BC. These were found in peace | :45:23. | :45:31. | |
process pyrrhus that has -- papyrus, in a private collection, is there | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
any more? More of ancient Greek poetry. There are boxes still | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
sitting from various rubbish Duchess in Ancient Egypt. Where are they? | :45:41. | :45:46. | |
Some of them are in boxes in humans, some are still wrapped around | :45:47. | :45:49. | |
Egyptian mummies, they were wrapped up in paper and people would peel | :45:50. | :45:57. | |
off the paper and we find find poems on those. I'm sure there are more to | :45:58. | :46:04. | |
be dug up in the sand of Egypt. Some are in private collection? There is | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
a huge black market to do with classical antiquities, I'm not | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
remotely alleging this is one. It is clear the editor of the pan papyrus | :46:15. | :46:26. | |
doesn't know where it should be. Do you think this is going to lead to a | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
kind of reappraisal of Saffo as a poet? It will mean an enormous | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
amount of new business for Greek professor, but to me it is so | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
exciting when people think the classics is dead or closed off we | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
get a whole new emotional sequence from this wonderful woman. Hang on | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
just a minute, Edith will read out some of that newly discovered Saffo, | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
in the original Greek. Hello a few showers around through | :46:57. | :48:11. | |
the night. Mist and | :48:12. | :48:13. |