Browse content similar to 03/02/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The UK Independence Party pride themselves on being unlike other | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
politicians, here is one thing that is certainly different about them. | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
Until December, this man spoke for UKIP on the Commonwealth. When the | :00:21. | :00:28. | |
gates open, now the benefit migrants start coming. We don't know the | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
number. Four million Romanian gypsies alone. Tonight we reveal he | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
was the ringleader of a kidnap gang in Pakistan. Your starter for ten, | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
Michael Gove, plans more changes for schools, true or false. True. And | :00:46. | :00:53. | |
this... I feel like you're spiting me. You think I took it job to spite | :00:54. | :01:01. | |
you. I don't think there is any doubt or argument that he was, and | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
how terrible that verb is in the past now, the greatest character | :01:08. | :01:13. | |
actor of our time. Richard Curtis and Will Self on Hoffman and Heroin. | :01:14. | :01:27. | |
He's been one of the poster boys for the United Kingdom Independence | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
Party, his name is Mujeed Bhutto, usually described as UKIP | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
Commonwealth Spokesman. Tonight Newsnight can disclose that Mr | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
Bhutto was the leader of a notorious kidnapping gang in Karachi. In 2004 | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
he threatened to behead the son of a wealthy Pakistani businessman. He | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
fled to England and was arrested in leads. -- Leeds when the ransom | :01:50. | :01:58. | |
money was found under his bed. In the past two years he has campaigned | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
for UKIP and making the most of television appearances. UKIP say | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
today he has left the party and may join the Conservatives. | :02:07. | :02:14. | |
In the media he's been very much the young Asian face of UKIP. Mujeed | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
Bhutto was a party member for more than two years. Shown here on a | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
Sunday morning debate show. What are you worried about, as UKIP's | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
Commonwealth spokesman? It is mass immigration, in the last few years | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
3. 7 million people have come in. How many have gone? We don't know | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
because Government is not keeping up the numbers, they don't know who is | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
coming in and going out. This Pakistani national has a remarkable | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
past. Newsnight has found out that Mujeed Bhutto came to this country | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
in 2004, not to work or visit relatives but to collect a bag full | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
of cash from this car park in central Manchester. It is a story of | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
blackmail, imprisonment and death threats. It starts thousands of | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
miles away in Pakistan. In a wealthy neighbourhood of Karachi a gang of | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
armed men stopped the Carreiraying the son of a well known businessman. | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
He was bundled away at gun point and held in a house in the city for two | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
months. Five days after the kidnapping Mujeed Bhutto flew to | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
England. He negotiated a ransom to be dropped off at the Arndale Centre | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
in Manchester. There was threats vive lens and torture, he claimed to | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
be the boss of the man. At one point saying he would have the victim's | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
head cut off and sent back to his father. There were two things, the | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
city of Manchester being involved in this, 5,000 miles away from | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
Pakistan. It is a lot of work for someone to come down to Manchester | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
and then arang for the ransom to be paid here and all that. The other | :03:52. | :03:53. | |
important thing, or interesting thing was that everybody connected | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
with the gang, everybody, this was a fairly big gang, apparently, seems | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
to have been found out and apprehended and punished, which | :04:04. | :04:10. | |
regrettably does not always happen. The ?56,000 ransom was found hidden | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
underneath Bhutto's bed in a house in Leeds where he was staying at the | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
time. He later admitted conspiracy to blackmail and given a seven-year | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
sentence to be served in a British jail. The judge at Manchester Crown | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
Court said he should be deported to Pakistan, but he claimed political | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
asylum so that never happened. Just a few months after he was released | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
it appears Mujeed Bhutto joined the Conservative Party, a few years | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
later he defected to UKIP. Since 2011 he has hosted conferences and | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
last autumn organised a trip for Nigel Farage to two mosques in Leeds | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
and Bradford. Over the past year he has been on and off the airwave, | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
arguing strongly against unrestricted immigration. Mujeed | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
Bhutto is the Commonwealth spokesman for the party and he's here. What | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
are you saying to a Muslim in a mosque about UKIP? We are giving our | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
message and about what people have their reservations about the party | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
about racism and other things. Thank you for joining us Mujeed Bhutto? | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
Thank you, this is a multiculturalism gone too far, and | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
we are not in Afghanistan, we are in Britain. | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
I'm a British Muslim, the thing is... Is Britain full? We are full, | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
other over capacity, over the limited now. Then over Christmas his | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
Facebook and Twitter pages vanished, he suddenly disappeared from UKIP's | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
list of spokes people in Yorkshire. He now claims he rejoined the | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
Conservative Party last week. This is not of course the first time | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
questions have been raised about UKIP members, whether it is Godfrey | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
Bloom or David Sylvester, blaming floods on gay marriage. If you don't | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
have any discipline as a political party, and you don't have tight | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
screening of candidate, you are perpetually going to be in trouble, | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
and without party discipline a revolt against the mainstream | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
parties will be doomed to fail before it has even got going. | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
Despite that guilty plea, Mujeed Bhutto now claims he was the victim | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
of a political rivalry, as his father was well connected in | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
Pakistan. The rest of the gang were caught in Karachi and given the | :06:20. | :06:22. | |
death penalty, he said he had to take a jail sentence here to avoid | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
that possibility. He claims his case has now been thrown out by the | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
Supreme Court in Pakistan. But the agency which handles kidnapping case | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
there is has told Newsnight he's still a wanted man. My As of last | :06:35. | :06:43. | |
month Mr Bhutto may no longer be an active member of UKIP. However this | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
is the strongest example yet that Nigel Farage may have some way to go | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
in his desire to clean up and professionalise the party. | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
We asked UKIP whether they would come on to news night to talk about | :06:55. | :07:04. | |
their erstwhile spokesman, they told us: | :07:05. | :07:19. | |
The Education Secretary, Michael Gove, has been accused of many | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
things, but reticence or modesty isn't one of them. He has more plans | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
for reforming schooling than the European Union has directives. Today | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
he started off by thanking schools for coping with the demands he has | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
made of them, but he couldn't stop himself making more demands. His | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
ambition, he said, was to create an environment in which you can't tell | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
whether a school is in the private or state sector. Back in the 1990s | :07:46. | :07:53. | |
our Secretary of State for Education was part of a "top club". Mime' | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
Michael Gove. Then, as today, he knew how important extracurricular | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
activities could be, helping, as he would put, to "build character" and | :08:05. | :08:16. | |
"instill grit". His main hobbies are real ale and real grit. Back then he | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
was good at politics? Jimmy Carter. A gift, his critics say never left | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
him. They point to his dismissal, announced this weekend, of the | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
Ofsted head, Sally Morgan, as the case in point. I'm really worried | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
what we are seeing is a politicisation of such an important | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
body such as Ofsted really when it has so much to do on school | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
standards, school improvement, on collaboration, what we are seeing is | :08:45. | :08:46. | |
a the Secretary of State playing politics with this really important | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
post. What do you say to that Michael? False. How much is it about | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
politicisingation of the -- politicisation of the role, as | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
claimed by the Liberal Democrats and Labour, and how much is it as part | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
of a wider vision. Man who has such a clear idea of what he is | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
determined education should be about, that doesn't want anyone, | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
least of all anyone at Ofsted, to get in his way. Holland Park school, | :09:12. | :09:20. | |
name checked by Michael Gove in his speech this morning, as a vision of | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
ethos and excellence he wants to see everywhere. It is a state school | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
that has changed dramatically in the last ten years, from the state it | :09:28. | :09:34. | |
found itself by Ofsted to the outstanding rating in 2011. I asked | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
the head if he worries about politicisation of Ofsted? Inevitably | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
one worries about that, it would be regrettable if the political | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
landscape and the educational landscape were so fused that they | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
had become inacceptable. It has not been my experience in any Ofsted | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
inspection that I felt any degree at all of politicisation. I think | :10:00. | :10:06. | |
certainly in 2011 one felt a particular brand that one hadn't | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
felt in previous inspections. Michael Gove is ambitious, he | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
believes the success story of places like Holland Park can be repeated | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
throughout the state sector. And today sounded the death knell on | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
that well worn phrase of the Blair administration, "the bog standard | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
school". Fact show beyond a reasonable doubt that English | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
education is starting to show a sustained and significant | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
improvement. The Government vision isn't just sweetness and light, | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
today's speech also told teachers to punish where they see fit. He even | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
told them how to do T Schools can insist on a detention, lunch break, | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
afterschool or weekends, they do not need, as they used to under Labour, | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
to give parents notice. They ask students to do extra work or repeat | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
unsatisfactory work, to write lines or an extra essay. Mr Government has | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
seen himself as locked in a struggle with this little fella, the blob, | :11:01. | :11:10. | |
the slime of quangos and those against change. If the Secretary of | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
State has a strong feeling of passion about the direction Ofsted | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
should be going in, shouldn't he be allowed to exercise that? | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
Secretaries of state should have autonomy and power, what we are | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
facing at the moment is a situation where everyone is saying Sally | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
Morgan is doing a good job, and we are seeing Ofsted inspecting in a | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
new and creative manner in certain circumstances, she is working well | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
with Michael Wilshaw, and yet the Secretary of State is getting rid of | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
her for essentially party political purposes. I understand a lot of this | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
hinges on the relationship between the Chief Inspector of Schools and | :11:46. | :11:47. | |
Michael Gove himself. Sir Michael was brought in as a man who shared | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
Mr Government's passions and understanding of the need for a | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
formal Ofsted, and yet, some way, he struggled to bring the institution | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
with him. Two weeks ago Michael Wilshaw say red, angered that plans | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
were being drawn up to reform and replace Ofsted. And last week David | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
Cameron appointed to the office a campaigns officer, a move Labour | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
fears will fill the jobs with more top Tories. Michael Gove insists | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
this isn't part of a Number Ten plan and the Morgan move was all his own | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
work. The Education Secretary is man known for his zeal and a sense of | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
doing things his way, as the "top club" might have once sung. | :12:34. | :12:42. | |
# It's got to be... # Perfect! We asked Michael Gove and | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
any of his backing group of education ministers to come on and | :12:47. | :12:49. | |
discuss his speech, they said no-one was available. I'm joined by the | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
headmaster or headteacher of the London Academy of excellence, are | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
you headmaster or headteacher? I call myself headmaster. The free | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
school where Michael Gove made his speech. Fiona Miller who chairs the | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
Local Schools Network, which campaigns to promote local state | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
schools, and David Green who runs the Civitas think-tank. He as right | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
isn't he in a way in saying that the "bog standard" school is leaving | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
England? I think so, personally I think that the creation of numerous | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
academies and a fairly large number of free schools has made a big | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
difference. It depends on whether you think competition drives up | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
standards or whether you think it doesn't. Personally I think it does. | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
The great problem we have had in the last 30 years that we have had 25 or | :13:38. | :13:45. | |
30% of pupils usually from disadvantaged backgrounds going to | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
schools where they have just not achieved their potential, hah that | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
couldn't be solved under state system with local authorities in the | :13:55. | :13:56. | |
driving seat, if not directly controlling schools in the way they | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
used to. His introduction of free schools and academies has | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
transformed the situation. To that extent it is a reasonable inference. | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
What do you make of the fact that he seemed to take the independent | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
sector as the benchmark, the desirable benchmark? He always does, | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
that I thought his speech today was a little bonkers, if you don't mind | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
me saying so. To talk about state schools introducing lines, bringing | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
in common entrance tests. There is no reason why they couldn't if they | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
wanted to? Why would they want to? He talked about a lot of things that | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
states schools are already doing as if they weren't. That is par for the | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
course, he likes to set up the straw men, the trendy progressive state | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
schools not doing rigour, not doing Duke of Edinburghs and debating, all | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
these things are going on in state schools and parents know that well. | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
It is a false dichotomy, he talks about state and independent schools, | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
rather than good schools and not issed God schools, it is up to good | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
schools to help make the not so good will, it is about sharing with | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
schools what is not fully imbedded. That is happening in London and what | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
London Challenge achieved, that is why London schools are a lot more | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
successful. Because they have had more money? And focus and attention. | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
Did you think the speech was bonkers? As I said afterwards, it | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
was my school it was given at, I said a good lesson, some things we | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
heard before some we hadn't and lots to think about. Some aspects, having | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
come from the independent sector, the school I used to work did one of | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
the most sensible things they did is get rid of the common entrance. | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
There used to be a test at 14 that got away with, it all turned into a | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
complete shambles. I seem to recall that he was actually rather in | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
favour of getting rid of it? I can't remember, it was Ed Balls who got | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
rid of it. The thing about Michael Gove the language he uses is | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
detatched from what goes on in real schools, he's alienating a lot of | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
heads and teachers who are working very hard to do all the things you | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
are talking about, by demonising them, presenting them as this | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
mythical blob that doesn't exist, apart from in the minds of the | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
Telegraph leaders. What about some of these other pro-Mosal -- | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
proposals that there be lines given and other forms of punishment in | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
schools? The way to look at it is like this, the big structural | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
changes have happened, now there is free schools and academies, and the | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
next stage is to go on to, which is partly what you were saying Robert, | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
is what makes for a good school. What should schools be doing. What | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
he is saying is there's been this problem of discipline in recent | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
years, and he's saying let me make it clear that there is more you can. | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
Do I didn't think it was in the least bit bonkers, and he was saying | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
that, for example, he will know perfectly well if you look at the | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
international study, it tries to work out what makes the difference | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
between an independently managed school and why they do better in the | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
state schools. And one of the things is they put in more time. So he's | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
saying let me make it clear you can put in more time. Let's talk to | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
Fiona's point that he refers to, the "blob", explain what that is? I | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
don't know. It is a creation of Michael Gove and the Telegraph. Does | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
anyone know what it means? It is way of referring to the inertia in a | :17:19. | :17:25. | |
system. For the last 0 -- 30-odd years there is focus on what is | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
called progressive, child-led, child-focussed education, and it has | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
dragged down standards. Do you think Fiona is part of the blob? Yes, she | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
is. I'm a journalist, and there is a lot of blobby journalists. You are a | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
chairman of governors and active in local schools network. Anyone who | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
criticised child-centered he education is making a big mistake, | :17:51. | :17:57. | |
it should be child-sendered. It is child-led or teacher-led. That was | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
false dichotomy. One of the things we have encountered is Ofsted | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
inspectors going around, giving a school "outstanding" for | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
achievement, and good for teaching quality, because they were too | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
diadactic. We are talking about the way Michael Gove deals with people | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
who work in the frontline. It is not a separate issues. That is what the | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
blob is, it is because the inspectors are endorsing doctrines | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
that do not work for children from disadvantaged backgrounds. There are | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
teachers and head teachers, these are the people that run our schools | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
make them work well. We want to encourage them to do better if they | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
are not doing well enough, and celebrate the ones doing well. The | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
way Michael Gove deals with it is to demonise everybody in the state | :18:42. | :18:44. | |
system and saying everyone in the private system is doing brilliantly. | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
We need to switch the rhetoric and focus on support and collaboration. | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
Do you feel part of the blob? No I don't. You know what the blob is | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
don't you? It is some construct put together by the media isn't it | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
really. I mean in the same way. You don't recognise that there is an | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
orthodoxy in academic circles about what teaching ought to be, what the | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
style ought to be, what its methodology ought to be? I don't | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
think that is true, that might have been true ten years, but not now. | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
Just talking about Ofsted, only last week Michael Wilshaw published an | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
open letter to the inspectorate saying stop saying the lessons was | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
bad because there was too much teacher talk. He needed to do that | :19:28. | :19:30. | |
because it was a problem. The point being is the Chief Inspector is | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
saying the most important thing about a lesson, which seems fairly | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
obvious is whether the children learn something or not or make | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
progress. And the method, sometimes that will be through teacher talk | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
and sometimes through impact learning and sometimes through group | :19:45. | :19:46. | |
work and sometimes through some other method, what matters at the | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
end of the lesson is do the children walk out knowing more than when they | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
went into the room. Part of the madness of Michael Gove is he talks | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
the language of autonomy and being free, but then does nothing but tell | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
people how to do their job, disMRNing children and how to teach. | :20:03. | :20:05. | |
You think there is no problem? Yes, of course, many schools do need to | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
get better, I fully accept that. As our elected representative, isn't it | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
his job to try to make things better? I'm making the thing that he | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
says he wants to give power to heads and teachers to decide how to run | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
their schools, let's let them do it, they don't need to be lectured by | :20:22. | :20:24. | |
him about how to instill discipline in their pupils or how exactly to | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
teach a lesson. If he wants autonomy let's talk about that. David's point | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
is crucially. You will be backed centrally. He want to control it | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
centrally. He's making it clear that from Whitehall they will back the | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
teachers who use these methods. What are we trying do? Some of the things | :20:45. | :20:47. | |
talked about today in the speech sounds like education hasn't | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
developed a new purpose apart from preparing people to work in clerical | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
jobs that no longer exist. The best schools now are teaching, as well as | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
knowledge, the skills of creativity, of independent thinking. Piajet says | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
people are intelligent are those who know what to do when they don't know | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
what to do. That is what schools should be doing, that is what Dilnot | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
Williams and others are talking about all the time. We come back to | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
conversations about methods of teaching rather than the purpose of | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
teaching. Those are discredited doctrine, Piajet is discredited. I | :21:22. | :21:28. | |
think this is going off topic here. It has become a by-word for cover-up | :21:29. | :21:35. | |
and injustice, survivors of the Hillsborough disaster has told | :21:36. | :21:38. | |
Newsnight they were intimidated and threatened by police sent to take | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
their statements. Seven months ago the Illsley independent panel | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
reported that accounts from Yorkshire Police, the local force, | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
had been changed, apparently to shift the blamen to the fans. For | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
the first time a number of fan who is survived the disaster have come | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
forward to tell us how West Midlands Police took their statements. Peter | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
Marshall, who was at Hillsborough in 1989 has been investigating. S. | :22:06. | :22:14. | |
Peter Marshall, who was at Hillsborough in 1989 has been | :22:15. | :22:16. | |
investigating. If you were there you know. If you were on the terrace | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
inside, 3,000 were backed behind the goal, you thanked mercy you | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
survived. 96 didn't. But for untold numbers, escaping the crush was only | :22:25. | :22:32. | |
the start of decades of trauma. I wasn't the same person, the top had | :22:33. | :22:35. | |
come off for me, I couldn't keep it all within any more. I just didn't | :22:36. | :22:45. | |
want to carry on. Some feel their trauma was made far worse by the | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
attitude of the officers whose job it was to mount an Independent | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
investigation into what went wrong at Hillsborough. Survivors will tell | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
you certain of these officers from the West Midlands force seemed to | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
regard them not so much as vulnerable but invaluable witnesses | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
more as though they were the accused. He told me he was going to | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
put together a case to charge me with wasting police time. I'm a | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
19-year-old boy, three weeks out of Hillsborough, traumatised, and he's | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
threatening me that he will put together a case for wasting police | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
time, because he didn't like my evidence. Nick, a 19-year-old | :23:26. | :23:31. | |
Sheffield student at the time was an Ipswich fan, a neutral, excited to | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
be going to a cup semifinal with friends from Liverpool. But as soon | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
as he arrived outside the ground he saw the chaos. It was a very | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
dangerous crush outside the stadium, which developed, there were very few | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
place around, no directions, no filtering, no barriers, nothing at | :23:49. | :23:55. | |
all. Nick and over 1,000 others went into the ground when police ordered | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
the opening of an exit gate. Within seconds they were in a lethal crush | :24:01. | :24:07. | |
on the terrace. John was just 17. The sound that still resonates with | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
me to this day is the sound of a crash barrier just snapping. And | :24:13. | :24:19. | |
everyone seemed just to topple in a domino effect. I went down under and | :24:20. | :24:26. | |
through the crowd. I think I passed out underneath and within the crowd, | :24:27. | :24:37. | |
I came to near the front left of the pen, and came to amongst people that | :24:38. | :24:52. | |
I now know were dead or were dying. As luck was within a matter of | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
metres to gate that led on to the pitch. There was a policeman on the | :24:58. | :25:04. | |
gate, the cries are suitable cries. People are dying, the guy turns his | :25:05. | :25:11. | |
back on us, he turned his back on us and ignores us. He didn't comprehend | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
what was going on in front of his eyes. He could not have understood | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
it. I remember standing next to a guy with dark greasey hair from the | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
sweat, we were totally pushed against each other in such a way | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
that it is impossible to describe. It was just me and him fighting for | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
our lives. And I don't know if he was one of the 96, I don't know if | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
he got out. But I know that I had to stand on him to get out. John helped | :25:43. | :25:49. | |
carry the dead and dying and then collapsed. In the following weeks he | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
and Nick and others were asked to make statements to the West Midlands | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
Police who had been called in to investigate. The questions weren't | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
what they had expected. The questions were along the line of how | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
can you give evidence against the policemen, how can you make | :26:09. | :26:11. | |
statements like that. Who are you to try to stitch us up and all this | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
nonsense. He then turned quite aggressive and started to question | :26:17. | :26:23. | |
me, was I a left-wing agitator, was I a student agitator or a member of | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
the Socialist Workers' Party. It was observed the day before I had been | :26:29. | :26:35. | |
wearing a "free man Dell had a" T-shirt, that made me a left-wing | :26:36. | :26:43. | |
agitator. What did you say to it? I laughed initially. It was just are | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
you serious, I'm just a fan of the game of football. John, the | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
schoolboy, says two officers came to his house and sent his parents away, | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
supposedly to spare their feelings. He told them everything, including | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
his plan to join the police. He says they dismissed his account as | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
unimportant. They had heard it all before. I hadn't told them anything | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
they didn't already know, and although I had been talking I didn't | :27:09. | :27:23. | |
know what he had written. N. They They stood around me and I wanted to | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
read it because I wasn't happy so I stood up. They stood around me, that | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
was oppressive behaviour, they were physically intimidating, two grown | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
men, detectives, in my house, I felt I had no power to tell them what to | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
do. You were a child? Yeah. They simply told me to sign it. They said | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
you don't need to read it, I have written what you have told me, all | :27:50. | :27:55. | |
you need to do is sign this now. So what happened? I signed it. You | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
didn't read it? No, they wouldn't let me. Nick says to him the police | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
became increasingly hostile? He then turned on me as to whether I was a | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
criminal with a grudge against the police. He told me he was going to | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
check my criminal record, he just you know just said I wasn't there, I | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
couldn't have been there. Couldn't have been at the game? I said you | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
have my match ticket, what more do you need me to prove I was there. He | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
said well you could have found that. What's particularly troubling is | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
that these stories of survivors feeling intimidated and abused are | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
not uncommon. Many now see a thread stretching from the south Yorkshire | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
force, who bungled the organisation at Hillsborough, to the West | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
Midlands Police, now teamed to have failed in their investigation. As | :28:46. | :28:53. | |
the main author of the Hillsborough Panel Report, and after 25 years | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
researching the disaster, this professor believes survivors, like | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
the bereaved, weren't interviewed, they were interrogated. There was a | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
mind set amongst the police investigators, and that mind set | :29:06. | :29:14. | |
hinged on crowd-related violence hooliganism, for want of a better | :29:15. | :29:21. | |
phrase, drunkenness, late arrival and ticketlessness. That was the | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
mind set. What I think is so significant about this is that if | :29:25. | :29:31. | |
you put that alongside knowledge that the police statements were | :29:32. | :29:34. | |
being reviewed and altered, it brings into question the entire | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
evidential base upon which the inquiries and investigations were | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
conducted. He says the way statements were taken only added to | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
the unresolved trauma. John was both typical and unique. He joined the | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
police, the Met's murder squad, but was haunted by what he called | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
survivor guilt. 15 years on he tried to kill himself. The sound of the | :30:00. | :30:08. | |
barrier, the screams, still the feel of that guy's hair in my face, still | :30:09. | :30:15. | |
feel it, I feel it now, I feel it today. I didn't want it any more. I | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
didn't think I at the served to still -- deserved to still be on. | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
What did you do? Tried to drive a car into a tree. John resigned from | :30:26. | :30:35. | |
the police and has now rebuilt his lifeuilt his life. At the Warrington | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
Police Complaints Authority they are rebuilding the inquiry. All the | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
original statements were handed to the original Hillsborough panel and | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
stored here. Nick sees his and says it doesn't reflect the truth. He has | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
also seen internal West Midlands Police memos and notes. And there, | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
hand-written are the lines referring to him, "came across as totally | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
antipolice, at first doubted he had been at the match, then there is the | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
Nelson Mandela T-shirt, left-wing type, actual motif not known". What | :31:08. | :31:13. | |
do you think of what they have written down? It is nonsense, it is | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
a cover up of a cover up, if you like. John's finally got to see the | :31:18. | :31:24. | |
statement he was refused sight of 25 years ago. He says it even places | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
him in the wrong part of the ground. The way they dealt with me on that | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
day, I felt dirty when they walked out the door. I felt they didn't | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
want to listen to me and they had come with an agenda. It totally | :31:38. | :31:45. | |
vindicates my thoughts then. West Midlands Police aren't commenting on | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
any of this, they say they are awaiting the explanation of | :31:50. | :31:51. | |
continuing investigations and the fresh Hillsborough inquest. | :31:52. | :32:04. | |
The shock of the news that the actor Philip Seymour Hoffman had been | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
found dead with a needle in his harm as hardly abated. There is universal | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
agreement he was an outstanding performer, and some great surprise | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
at the circumstances of his death. I'm going to talk about drugs and | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
addiction and creativity shortly with Will Self. First though Richard | :32:20. | :32:26. | |
Curtis, who worked with Hoffman on his film The Boat That Rocked | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
remembers the factor's -- actor's work. Philip Seymour Hoffman was a | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
wonderful, mysterious and complex man, who gave an astonishing range | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
of performances in his 60 or so films. He had that talent that the | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
great actors do of extending your understanding and sympathy for human | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
beings. So it is no coincidence that one of his great stage performances | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
was in Death of a Salesman, the key line of which is "attention must be | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
paid". Philip's performances made us pay attention to strange or lonely, | :33:01. | :33:08. | |
uncool, unusual men. There's a very telling and strangely apt line in | :33:09. | :33:16. | |
his wonderful performance in Almost Famous. I'm glad you are home? I'm | :33:17. | :33:23. | |
always home, I'm uncool. Me too? You are doing great, the only true | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone when you | :33:28. | :33:36. | |
are uncool. He made no mistakes in his extraordinary career. I remember | :33:37. | :33:42. | |
him sitting around with people on The Boat That Rocked. I asked him | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
was there any film he was unsure of, and he said Twister, and the howl | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
went up and said you were fantastic, it is a fantastic film. Even in that | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
effects-driven Hollywood commercial firm there was something | :33:57. | :33:59. | |
extraordinary about what Phil did. He was good at everything. He was | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
very good at being bad, he was a great stage Iago, and this is a | :34:05. | :34:10. | |
glimpse of him as someone who wants to kill Tom Cruise which is bad, I | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
suppose. What are you saying, that wasn't it? What I gave yo I'm going | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
to count to ten, you will tell me where the rabbit's foot is or she | :34:23. | :34:29. | |
dies. He was exceptional at portraying goodness or sweetness. | :34:30. | :34:35. | |
Like he did in the film, beautiful film Jack Goes Boating, that he | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
himself directed. Maybe a little good night kis Maybe. Nothing | :34:40. | :34:52. | |
overwhelming? OK. I don't think there is any doubt or argument that | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
he was, and how terrible that verb is in the past now, the greatest | :34:58. | :35:04. | |
character actor of our time. I remember the first part I ever fell | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
in love with him in was The Talented Mr Ripley. Extraordinary rhythms | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
like you had never seen someone do before. Are you living here? No, no, | :35:16. | :35:29. | |
I'm staying here for a few day It is a new piano, you probably shouldn't. | :35:30. | :35:40. | |
(hits piano keys) His explosive performance in Charley Wilson's War, | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
almost unrecoginsable from any other film you have seen him in. I have | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
neutralised champions of communism, I have spent the past three years | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
learning finish, which will come in handy in Virginia, and I'm never | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
sick at sea, I want to know why I'm not going to be the Helsinki chief. | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
You are coarse? Excuse me. He was a proper leading man, as seen in his | :36:03. | :36:09. | |
amazing performance as Trueman Capote, for which he won an Oscar, | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
he should have won ten. I had lunch with Jimmy Barredman the other day. | :36:15. | :36:20. | |
How is he? He's a lovely man, he told me the plot of his new book, he | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
said to me I just want to make sure it is not one of those problem | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
novels, I said, Jimmy your novel is about a negro homosexual who is in | :36:29. | :36:34. | |
love with a Jew, wouldn't you call that a problem?! All I can say is | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
perhaps you seek out one or even five of his extraordinary films from | :36:41. | :36:48. | |
Magnolia to The Mast e from Punchdrunk Love to The Savages, I'm | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
sure you will marvel at it, and enjoy it and know a little bit more | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
about what it means to be human. That is what great actors do. And | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
Philip Seymour Hoffman was such an actor. Richard Curtis on Philip | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
Seymour Hoffman. Joining us now is the writer Will Self. I would like | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
to talk about the drugs aspect of this. Were you surprised? I knew | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
nothing about Philip Seymour Hoffman's involvement with drugs at | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
all. Surely one of the reasons why we have all cleaved to him so | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
strongly is he was somebody who managed to keep his private life | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
largely out of the public eye, which is an achievement in this day and | :37:30. | :37:35. | |
age. Do you understand the involvement with drugs? Addiction is | :37:36. | :37:41. | |
no respecter of persons. There is hardly anywhere you can point a | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
finger high or low in society and not hit somebody who has addiction | :37:46. | :37:52. | |
issues. Heroin is a drug we associate most strongly with | :37:53. | :37:55. | |
addiction, but people can be addicted to all sorts of things. I | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
think the fact that heroin was involved in his death is what people | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
find very shocking. Largely because of the image that heroin has in our | :38:03. | :38:09. | |
culture. I think that is shocking. The old saw-horse of whether he was | :38:10. | :38:15. | |
such an amazing actor in some way was connected, his creativity was | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
connected with the drug use, or the pressures of his life led to the | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
drug use. I dare say that's in the mix, you can go to any kind of poor | :38:25. | :38:32. | |
or deprived part of our country and shake a stick, throw a stick and you | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
will hit somebody who probably has a heroin habit. We have the highest | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
per capita registered heroin addicts in Europe. It is often represented | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
as a loser's drug, which is the environment you are talking about | :38:49. | :38:51. | |
there, by no stretch of the imagination was this man a loser? | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
No, and you will find heroin addicts in every walk of life. I think in | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
America, in particular, there is a very strange culture, there is a | :39:02. | :39:04. | |
strange one here as well. But a strange culture surrounding opiate | :39:05. | :39:12. | |
drugs, and the broader family of drugs which heroin is one. What is | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
heroin like? You are asking me personally. I think for people that | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
don't have, you know, who don't have a reason to be anaesthetised, it | :39:23. | :39:30. | |
probably is experienced as, yes euphoric, as yes a kind of drug that | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
they wouldn't mind taking, but they wouldn't necessarily feel a pull | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
towards taking it again. It is one of the paradoxes. One of the strange | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
things is most of the people watching us now at some time or | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
another will take medical diamorphine, which is heroin. If | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
they are in pain they will experience simply the removal of the | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
pain. It is not instantly addictive then? No, it takes a fairly | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
concerted effort to get addicted to opiate drugs, so you can say that | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
people who do become addicted, maybe they have a predisposition to it. | :40:06. | :40:08. | |
But they have to make some decisions and decide to take it. But I think | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
at some point, and presumably this had happened to Hoffman and from the | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
bare bones account we have of his history of drug use, it probably | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
happened to him shortly after he left acting school. Because he went | :40:23. | :40:25. | |
to rehab after that. You don't really go to drug rehab without a | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
drug problem. The points get switched, you have made so many | :40:31. | :40:33. | |
decisions to take the drug that the taking of it becomes compulsive at | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
some level. Apparently he spent 20 years clean? Yes, that may well be | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
true. Of course we don't know whether he had other addictive | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
behaviours so to speak, and kept the addiction dormant. I think the way | :40:48. | :40:50. | |
the story is being reported suggests this idea that addiction is like a | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
kind of ugly spirit that was could youed -- cowed and pushed into the | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
background and reared up in that way. I'm not sure that is useful. It | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
seems a rather medieval perception of it, we don't know is the truth of | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
the matter, what led to him being in that situation, again very sadly, | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
but this is only supposition, often people who returned to using heroin | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
after a long period of be a Nantes, they can't judge the dose. You know, | :41:16. | :41:25. | |
this is happening quite freakily. -- frequently. There is something about | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
injecting isn't there? It is the combination of his brilliance as an | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
actor and the very, very, and it is pushed as a gory detail, it is a | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
lurid detail, it is a bit of sensationalism that injecting is | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
involved is very shocking. I think that is because, again, most of us | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
will be injected with heroin at some point in our lives. Usually just | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
before we die. You know anybody who has been in hospital and had pain | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
relief has been injected with heroin often, or morphine. Do you think | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
doing it yourself is different? That is the point, going right back to | :42:04. | :42:10. | |
the, heroin was originally synthesised in St Mary's Hospital in | :42:11. | :42:13. | |
Paddington, near to where we are now. It was a medical THIVENLTH | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
opiate addiction has always been appropriating what should be | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
rightfully a medical role. I don't mean to be trite about this, it is | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
quite serious, addiction comes about at the same time as the full | :42:30. | :42:31. | |
professionalise of medicine and the elevation of medicine to our modern | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
priesthood, our kind of spiritual priesthood, the idea that somebody | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
should appropriate th thing that only doctors are meant to do and do | :42:41. | :42:43. | |
it to themselves is very, very shocking. Now the last British | :42:44. | :42:51. | |
combat soldiers should be out of Afghanistan by the end of the year. | :42:52. | :42:54. | |
This country's claim and the claim of all of NATO is the deadline | :42:55. | :42:57. | |
doesn't mark the end of commitment, merely a change of activity. They | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
would like to have agreed with the Afghan Government precisely how that | :43:03. | :43:05. | |
will work, but that has not been possible, either because of | :43:06. | :43:08. | |
President is a lame duck and won't be in office much longer, or perhaps | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
because he's just difficult. So our defence correspondent jumped at the | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
chance to find out how the NATO secretary-general, Anders Fogh | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
Rasmussen, saw things. NATO combat troops must be out of Afghanistan by | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
the end of this year. And there is no agreement over what will follow. | :43:29. | :43:36. | |
So, plans to create a force of NATO advisers, even the details of who | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
will pay the Afghan Army, are up in the air, and western security chiefs | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
are deeply unhappy. I'm concerned that if there is no present | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
international presence in Afghanistan, after 2014, it would | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
also be difficult to generate financial resources to sustain the | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
Afghan security forces, that means they will not be able to pay | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
salaries. Of course that won a -- would be a major security concern. A | :44:06. | :44:12. | |
security force of that size goes well beyond the financial capacity | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
of the Afghan Government. And if we can't generate financial support, | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
they will be faced with major problems. And this is the reason why | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
I do believe that at the end of the day we will get the signature on the | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
security agreement. It is interesting that you are confident | :44:30. | :44:32. | |
about that. What does that then say about the behaviour of President | :44:33. | :44:42. | |
Karzai, in initially assembly tribunal tribal leaders to ratify | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
that, and then saying he would never sign it. Is that playing politics? | :44:47. | :44:54. | |
Obviously it is politics but it is remarkable that representatives from | :44:55. | :45:03. | |
the Afghan society at large conveyed a very clear message to President | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
Karzai as well as the international community, we want an international | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
military presence after that date, and we urge the President to sign as | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
soon as possible. To go to the bottom lion, I don't think President | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
Karzai will sign. So probably it will be for a new President, after | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
the presidential elections to sign a security agreement that would allow | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
us to stay after 2014. When you hear the things President Karzai says | :45:34. | :45:39. | |
about this agreement. Saying he won't sign it, leaving the problem | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
for his successor, about the sacrifice of NATO soldiers, his | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
assertions that there was no improvement of security in the | :45:49. | :45:51. | |
south, it would have been better if they had never gone to places like | :45:52. | :45:54. | |
Helmand Province, you must despair at his statements sometimes? | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
Personally I have an excellent relationship with President Karzai. | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
But having said that, I also have to say that such statements are | :46:04. | :46:12. | |
something like playing with fire. Because we shouldn't underestimate | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
the damaging effect on public and political support for our presence | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
in Afghanistan when people hear such statements. We have invested a lot | :46:24. | :46:30. | |
in blood and treasure in Afghanistan. Also because of our own | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
security, but through our efforts we have created a framework for a | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
better Afghanistan. So honestly speaking I do think people in our | :46:41. | :46:49. | |
countries would expect some lines of gratitude from the Afghan political | :46:50. | :46:55. | |
leadership. There is another worry too, about Syria, after two | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
shipments of chemical weapons under an international deal, Syria has | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
stopped delivering. Citing security concerns. Some American decision | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
makers think it may be time to reconsider military options. I | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
really urge the Syrian Government to live up to its obligations according | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
to the UN Security Council resolution. And I also hope the | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
Russians will put a lot of pressure on the Syrian Government. When does | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
that threat have to go back on the table do you think? If this deal | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
continues to faulter? The Americans have declared that it is still on | :47:33. | :47:39. | |
the table but I think we should give diplomacy a chance. Now the Syrian | :47:40. | :47:46. | |
Government has actually agreed to eliminate chemical weapons. They | :47:47. | :47:49. | |
have joined the international treaty against the use of chemical weapons, | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
so far so good. But now it is a question about the implementation, | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
and they must, of course, comply with the UN Security Council | :47:58. | :48:09. | |
resolution. Lastly you are the head of a military-based organisation, | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
how do you feel that the leaders of that organisation are reluctant to | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
commit their troops to new military adventures, and to pay the sort of | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
amount they used to pay towards their common defence? When | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
Governments are forced to cut deficits and carry through deep cuts | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
across the board, it is difficult to suggest that defence should be | :48:33. | :48:39. | |
exempted, but it is matter of concern taking into account that | :48:40. | :48:41. | |
other powers in the world invest more and more in security and | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
defence, and at the end of the day it means that we will have less | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
influence on the international scene, the vacuum will be filled by | :48:51. | :48:55. | |
other powers, and they do not necessarily share our interests and | :48:56. | :49:04. | |
our values. That was the secretary-general of NATO. The front | :49:05. | :49:06. | |
pages now: That's all from us, the video we | :49:07. | :49:33. | |
will leave you with tonight, it has been suggested, may be a fake, not | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
that it bothers us, but if it is real then the people involved are | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
very stupid indeed. You decide. Good night. | :49:43. | :49:51. |