Browse content similar to 12/02/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello from the backroom of the George pub in the village of | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
Wraysbury on the not so lovely banks of the River Thames, or where the | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
banks used to be. The boxer Henry Cooper used to train in this room, | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
apparently. Tonight, we've filled it with some of the people who've felt | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
the consequences of the wettest bit of weather for a couple of hundred | :00:23. | :00:25. | |
years. Facing them, the Cabinet Minister, Philip Hammond. People | :00:26. | :00:32. | |
here have discovered to their cost what living on a flood plain can | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
mean and how very fragile are many of the assumptions on which modern | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
life is based. What you really notice is how some houses have | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
escaped almost unscathed and others are perhaps less well designed and | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
have seen the floodwater warning in. -- pouring in. The Prime Minister | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
has chosen to make this a test of his government, although he | :00:55. | :00:56. | |
discovered today that putting flesh on bones is much more complicated | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
than merely making promises. When you say money is no object, are you | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
setting yourself up as a hostage to fortune? At what stage do you save | :01:03. | :01:09. | |
the tap has to be turned off? -- say. This is the highest point in | :01:10. | :01:20. | |
the village, an island of dryness surrounded by wetness. Apart from a | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
bit of aircraft noise, which you might hear a little of, it's | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
normally a quiet enough place. Lots of people work at Heathrow so it's | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
an occupational hazard. It's not stockbroker belt but is part of a | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
constituency which has sent a Conservative MP to Westminster since | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
Benjamin Disraeli was Tory leader. David Cameron has made helping those | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
afflicted by what in earlier times was considered an act of God a test | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
of his government. Here in the bar, a few of the locals. With me are two | :01:48. | :01:54. | |
of the flood wardens. What is a moot? We are elated we have got the | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
military in, it was very emotional and frustrating. This sounds like | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
the contradiction. We are elated we have the military. And frustrated at | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
the flooding. I saw the flood warnings on the ground but we have | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
the military and the police in and everybody else to help. We have | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
always been on our own. 2003, totally on our own with no support | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
or back-up. We had a little bit of help. You are quite impressed by the | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
government? They are great, aren't they? Not! Thank you very much. We | :02:34. | :02:41. | |
are here because David Cameron has made this an issue on which his | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
government will be judged. His words were that money would be no object. | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
As Emily Maitlis reports, easier said than done. It has been called | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
an almost on map -- unparalleled crisis. Not the kind of language we | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
normally used to describe Britain. When you add the hundreds rescued | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
from home county Surrey, many more have been told not to step outside | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
and you realise this is uncharted water and that means throwing | :03:10. | :03:16. | |
whatever you can at it to make it. -- make it better. The first | :03:17. | :03:24. | |
question tonight is, the Prime Minister announced that what would | :03:25. | :03:32. | |
be no object? Money is no object in this relief effort. That is right, | :03:33. | :03:39. | |
money. OK, this time, when asked about future spending, the transport | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
Secretary says he does not think it is a blank cheque? That is right, | :03:44. | :03:52. | |
the word is blank. Today, a certain degree of confusion about what Terry | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
Wogan might once have called the cheque-book and ten. Something | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
exploited by the Labour leader in the Commons as he forged the PM to | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
address forthcoming redundancies of the Environment Agency. Giving | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
yesterday 's promise to make sure we have a resilient country for the | :04:12. | :04:14. | |
future and spend whatever it takes, busy committing to reconsidering | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
these redundancies and the amount of money we invest in flood defences? | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
No clarity on that one from David Cameron but then Labour stands | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
accused of making cuts to flood investment when it was in power. No | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
political party will pick a fight about money for flood victims at a | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
time when the country is in a national emergency to do so -- to do | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
so would be suicide. But the heart of these exchanges asks a bigger | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
question is how much will political priorities change going forward when | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
the watcher receives and the sun comes out? Will still be the same | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
financial commitment to making Britain more resilient for the next | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
time around? -- watcher receives. These scenes are to familiar in our | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
homes. Communities already feeling they could not take any more have | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
been tipped over the edge by more rain. There are ways around this but | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
at what cost? The Environment Agency talks of a lower tens strategy, | :05:16. | :05:22. | |
prevention to cover 21,000 homes. But this option is expensive and | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
some ?500 million, a plan for the next century and a relatively short | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
span of actual river. That is just the money. We need conviction. Six | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
months ago the Conservative Environment Secretary claimed they | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
could even be benefits to global warming. He suggested fewer people | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
would die of cold in winter, more crops would grow in the North. Food | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
for thought for David Cameron, whose slogan once boasted of old blue and | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
go green. This represents a strand of the community -- Conservative | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
Party which has been to deny that climate change has had a big impact | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
on Britain and this will make a lot of people in the Conservative Party | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
and others think again. And I think for people like the Lib Dems, who | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
have been more consistent in standing up and talking about how we | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
must take action. The relief measures or a solid start. If | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
?500,000 repair grant for all affected homeowners and businesses. | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
100 present business rate relief for three months and three months longer | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
to pick as Ms taxes. ?10 million for farmers suffering from waterlogged | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
fields and more than ?750 million from major banks to lend financial | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
support to businesses and customers affected. But there are still plenty | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
of confusion surrounding the future protection of homes and who gets it. | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
The legislation currently going through the Lords would take away | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
the safety blanket currently offered to small businesses. That is the | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
automatic renewal of insurance policies if they are on flood | :06:55. | :07:02. | |
events. The new system, it would not extend to anything deemed a | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
commercial interest. That means a village pub or a bed and breakfast | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
would not get cover. Even if it was your home. Every lifeline thrown | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
there are other voices, inevitably complaining that money is not going | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
to them. Last week it was historically, this week we are being | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
told the country is wealthy again. National optimism might be in short | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
supply right now but talk of prosperity can make people bold and | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
bold people ask for more. Herbs the PM or at least as Chancellor might | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
be wishing he had kept the cheque-book under wraps. With us to | :07:33. | :07:48. | |
discuss this is an audience of locals, experts, voices from here | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
and beyond and the Defence Secretary. Just before we talk, can | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
we hear a couple of voices from the audience. What do you think of the | :07:58. | :08:05. | |
way this has been handled so far? It has been handled reasonably well by | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
the government, the Environment Agency have handled this very badly. | :08:09. | :08:16. | |
In the village, they brought in 200 soldiers and sailors and build a | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
sandbag wall up to the wire fence so the water ran around. I do not think | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
the Environment Agency has been at all confident. Leaving aside the | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
question of the army coming in, which was a recent intervention, up | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
to that point, who he was impressed by the way this has been handled? | :08:37. | :08:43. | |
Nobody? Hannah, where you impressed? You are not local but you are under | :08:44. | :08:50. | |
30? I was impressed with the way the event was forecasted and the | :08:51. | :08:52. | |
Environment Agency did an excellent job. That is important, being | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
prepared. There are things that need to be adjusted, should this happen | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
again. Some people are unhappy here. Phillip Hammond, are you proud of | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
the way this has been handled? We can always learn lessons. I think my | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
observation is what people in this particular community feel | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
particularly aggrieved about is that other communities along the river | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
appear to have been treated in a different way and that is something | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
we have to understand the reasons for. Is that true? And gentleman | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
talked about sandbagging that took place and I am no expert but I am | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
told there are a difference is around the topography that make it | :09:35. | :09:36. | |
work in some places and not in others. What were the mistakes? In | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
the fullness of time we will want to look at how things were done and | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
where they could have been done better so we can learn. I cannot sit | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
here in the middle of a crisis and say... Yes, you can. You have got | :09:51. | :09:57. | |
things in mind. In the fullness of time, we should look at what was | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
done, where and we should analyse those decisions. I am being told | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
that the reason the work was done in Dachett on Monday and not here was | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
simply due to the topography and the practical effect that could be | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
delivered. I am not an expert, I cannot validate that statement but | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
in time, people who are experts will want to look at these assessments | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
and decide if they were right or wrong. Can you help us with some | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
other things? Eric Pickles. One day he says that he got bad advice from | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
the Environment Agency and the next he says he is full of confidence? Is | :10:37. | :10:43. | |
he just forgetting things? The time right now is not the time for | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
stirring up fights in different agencies and organisations. We all | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
have to pull together. I am worried about Eric Pickles. In due course | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
will be a proper time for analysing the advice given and indeed the | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
policy positions that were adopted. For example, around dredging. We | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
will want to look at those and form a view about whether the advice and | :11:07. | :11:13. | |
the policies were right or wrong. I am worried about his recollection, | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
that is all. You might be but what I say is that I do not think this is | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
the right time to be stirring up disputes in different agencies. He | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
is the one who said he got bad advice. The strong message I got | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
here was that people wanted all of the agencies to pull together any | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
same direction and get things done. Let's look at the question of money. | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
The Prime Minister says it is not a problem. Does that mean there is new | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
money? It means that in responding to this crisis, we will not allow | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
ourselves to be constrained by resources. So the manpower is | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
available and the money is available. There will not be any | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
thing that is needed that cannot be provided because of money or | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
manpower. Where is it coming from? Local authorities will have access | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
to 100 present compensation, paid from the Treasury reserve. The | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
military forces that have been made available are available to | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
commanders and local authorities and the Treasury reserve will pick up | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
these costs. We do not want anybody saying we cannot deal with this | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
problem, we cannot respond because we do not have enough money or | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
manpower. There is enough money? And manpower, to respond to the crisis. | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
Clearly, Ed Miliband talking about this in prime ministers questions, | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
that does not mean that forever the government will spend any amount of | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
money watch in this crisis and in responding... Resources will not be | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
the constrained. But this is after the event? The event is very much | :12:55. | :13:01. | |
going on now. You will spend this money clearing up an event that in | :13:02. | :13:08. | |
many cases could have been... It is important that local authorities and | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
the emergency services know that whatever they spend on whether it is | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
mature real and equipment or on overtime or whatever they spend, | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
they will get reimbursed by the government. They can forget that | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
particular issue. Lots of people would like to have a say. Philip, | :13:27. | :13:33. | |
let us start with you. I am grateful that Philip came to the village | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
yesterday. It seems a very long time ago. And we were lucky that a group | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
of concerned residents told us we needed the army. We have been told | :13:44. | :13:50. | |
on Sunday that we were going to have floods similar to 1947 and luckily, | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
the Flood warden had told us that they had a meeting and we could tell | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
residents they had to evacuate houses and for 48 hours, this | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
village was on its own and luckily they told us the problem and we have | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
the army within three hours. Up to that point, the first rescue service | :14:12. | :14:19. | |
we had was the RSPCA! Are you serious? Yes. They were the first | :14:20. | :14:28. | |
people here. And they rescued people, as well as animals. But | :14:29. | :14:38. | |
since then, the army has turned up en masse. And the Fire Brigade. And | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
we have got 100 soldiers in the village. Why are you laughing at the | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
mention that the EA turned up? In mass. We had seen one the day | :14:48. | :14:56. | |
before. The intervention was too late? Yes. Far too late. Tell us, | :14:57. | :15:03. | |
what do you mean? Five weeks' ago, we started our campaign. I was on | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
the BBC News five weeks' ago saying we have a problem here, we need | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
help. What was the problem you were identifying? We started off with our | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
drains filling up which we knew then that the water level in the ground | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
was rising and after that happened, four days later the floods came in. | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
We've had no main drainage for five-and-a-half weeks now. What's it | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
been like trying to live through that? Difficult. Hell. Hell? Why, | :15:30. | :15:37. | |
tell me why? Go on? We started off on our own, a small team of six of | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
us. Whilst we were picking up on your point about defences in | :15:43. | :15:48. | |
Datchit, whilst six to eight volunteers were risking their lives | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
because there was no-one supporting our village, you are building a | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
sandbag bank with half the military on a dry grass verge in Datchit half | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
a mile away. We had no resource whatsoever in our village. That was | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
even after we went on to severe flood warning. We had to boar retwo | :16:06. | :16:14. | |
-- borrow two boats. Who supplied these plastic boats? Residents. No, | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
but... Residents here have done so much. So much. Dave - well, I pass | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
over to you - but you have been brilliant. Sue is... These people | :16:27. | :16:34. | |
are jolly cross? Yes, there are a couple of things that have come out | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
of this. My constituency is in the opposite side of the riverbank, so | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
all the problems being talked about here are being experienced on the | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
other side of the river. This is not just happened in February. This has | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
been going on since January. People who live along the river know and | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
understand the way the river works and the way the ground water systems | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
work better than anybody. So, yeah, people - we need to listen more | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
clearly to the people who live along the river. That's one of the | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
mistakes you made? That's one of the consistent messages that comes | :17:11. | :17:13. | |
through. The people... The Environment Agency are funding the | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
Jubilee River on to a gravel rail embankment and that is the reason | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
Datchit floods? People know how the river works. I have known that for | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
the 17 years that I have represented the constituency on the other bank. | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
That's the first thing. The second thing - I must say this - when I | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
came into the village yesterday morning, there were a significant | :17:34. | :17:40. | |
number of police in the village, there was a Bronze Command operating | :17:41. | :17:43. | |
in the school. It isn't quite true to say that at 8.00am yesterday | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
there was nothing here. It may not have been as much as you would like, | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
but there were things here yesterday morning, there were police vehicles, | :17:56. | :18:02. | |
there were officers, there were Fire Brigade vehicles. Do you not think | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
they were here because they knew you were coming here? You cynic! I wish | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
I had that power. Go on? One police officer had wellingtons. They are | :18:15. | :18:22. | |
not equipped. I have worn these for five weeks and they are very sexy! | :18:23. | :18:29. | |
They are! Why am I leading a team for four days without any resources | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
waist-deep rescuing pensioners in stupid dinghies, whilst you are | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
building a sandbag bank? You shouldn't be. Let me be quite clear | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
about this. The military response to requests from the local authorities | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
and the emergency services. They are in the lead. That's the way we work | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
in this country. We've made military personnel available, military | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
equipment available, but we colonel make it available. The civilian lead | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
authorities have to ask for it. And have to direct it with the tasks | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
that they want. I find it strange that you can predict now what is | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
going to happen in seven days' time? Whilst our guys are three-foot deep | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
in water rescuing, there was no predictions at all. You should have | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
known what was going to happen as our leaders and got the military in | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
prior to, instead of risking our lives? We did know what was going to | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
happen. So why didn't you respond? We did know. On Saturday morning, I | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
was at a residents' meeting talking to people who knew, as you knew, how | :19:35. | :19:43. | |
the river was coming up. 32 tonnes, the residents filled. We knew it was | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
going to happen. Dave told us. We transported on Saturday morning | :19:49. | :19:55. | |
32,000 kilos of sand from a trading estate in Transit vans to a margin | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
point and we had volunteers with cones and shovels making sandbags | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
for a whole day. The point I want to make - please don't point the finger | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
at the military. They were there and ready to go. I have not heard a | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
single person criticise the military. They have to be asked for | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
by the civil authorities. I'm pointing the finger at the lady | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
three rows back. Off you go. Thank you. I live on the opposite side of | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
the river. Wraysbury have been brilliant. The flood wardens in | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
Wraysbury have rung me every day because I am volunteer flood warden | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
on the island and I have been volunteer flood warden with my | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
husband, who is in hospital, during the whole of this operation. We have | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
not received the help, Mr Hammond, I'm afraid to say. We need the help. | :20:51. | :20:58. | |
We had the Secretary of State for the Environment visit us today. By | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
the end of today, I was promised the military, I was promised sandbags, I | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
was promised portaloos. We have had nothing! I was promised those by the | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
end of the day. Why have we not received what I was promised earlier | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
on today? OK. I have had to evacuate myself from my house. Everybody has | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
been brilliant on the island, they have worked very well. Please could | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
you answer? Let him answer the question. I can't answer a specific | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
question. We have a command structure, there is a Bronze | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
Commander, a Silver Commander, a Gold Commander. If you have been | :21:41. | :21:43. | |
promised something, it should have been delivered. As I did yesterday, | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
I can take down your individual concern, I can look at it, but I | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
can't answer the question here because that's for the local | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
commanders to answer. Let's broaden this now into another area. No-one | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
with a bit of humanity would fail to sympathise with people whose houses | :22:01. | :22:09. | |
have been inundated. But there is another perspective. Among | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
harder-hearted observers of this week's events the question remains: | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
why be surprised if you live on a floodplain and it floods? Jim Reed | :22:19. | :22:20. | |
reports. March 1947 and a reminder this is | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
not the first time this has happened. Thousands lost their homes | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
in the great Thames flood. There were calls back then for the | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
Government to stop this ever happening again. 65 years on, | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
hundreds have again been moved out of houses in the Thames valley. | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
Troops are now on the ground in significant numbers. Thoughts are | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
now turning to the future and once again, questions are being asked | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
about building on floodplains like this. Priory Road, to the west of | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
Wraysbury, has seen some of the worst flooding. Sue and her husband | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
live at the end of the street. Here, 4X4s and fire engines are still | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
being turned back. It is waist height. If you are trying to get to | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
Priory Road, you will probably be alright in this. That vehicle there | :23:11. | :23:22. | |
is absolutely no good to people where we are further down on the | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
island. So, the people living here are having to make do to get around. | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
Boats and canoes are the main form of transport in some parts of | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
Wraysbury. The floodwater here is at least three or four feet deep. In | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
some places, even deeper. What you notice here when you travel past is | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
how some houses have escaped almost unscathed, others that are perhaps | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
less well designed have seen the floodwaters pour in. The head of the | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
organisation which monitors flood levels called today for more homes | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
to be built like this one, on stilts with the ground floor used as a | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
garage. Often, though, in areas like this, that hasn't happened. That's | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
flooded. It looks like steps there. At the back, they are not as high. | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
You will be able to see how a river house is and how dry we are inside. | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
You wouldn't want to be anywhere else. Sue's home was lifted from the | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
water on stilts with specialised concrete foundations to prevent | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
subsidence. You can't complain about that. No water here at all. This | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
house is completely dry? This house will never be flooded. I can't see a | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
time when we would have water into the house. It's built so high. It's | :24:33. | :24:40. | |
built a metre-and-a-half higher than the '47 flood. She walked us outside | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
to see how her neighbours were getting on. That's - the lady has | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
had to move out. She lives on her own. Although the water is not in, | :24:49. | :24:57. | |
the electric meter is very low down. We have to build on floodplains. | :24:58. | :25:00. | |
There is a shortage of housing in this area. If they built them like a | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
river house, like this, there is not a great problem because it's not | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
taking up much space. It is built on stilts, it is only taking up a few | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
square yards of space. You don't concrete underneath, gravel | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
underneath, don't concrete your drives, gravel them and that | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
minimises the environmental effect. Why then is it still easy to find | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
new-build houses in this area with no real protection from the river? | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
This evening, there are still 14 severe flood warnings along the | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
Thames alone. With more bad weather forecast, the Environment Agency is | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
warning levels could rise again, possibly rivalling these scenes from | :25:41. | :25:46. | |
1947, the worst British floods of the 20th Century. Colin, you are an | :25:47. | :25:56. | |
academic authority on this subject. What do we need to learn about | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
living on floodplains? Well, I agree with the earlier speaker, | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
floodplains are quite good places to live, 90%, or 99% of the time. There | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
is a risk that you will be flooded if you live there. That is why we | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
need the things that only Government can do and local authorities can do | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
and even flood wardens can do. But there are some things that only | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
individual homeowners can do as well to reduce their own risk. This is | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
quite a Tory theme, isn't it, people taking responsibility for their own | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
lives? There are layers here, as the gentleman said. There are some | :26:36. | :26:38. | |
things that only Government can do, the delivery of major flood | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
alleviation schemes and on this part of the Thames, we are waiting for a | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
big flood alleviation scheme which has been in many years in the | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
planning and we hope will be delivered over the next few years. | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
There are also things that individuals can do around their own | :26:57. | :27:02. | |
properties and when it comes to responding to the inevitability of | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
there being from time to time flood events, it is a mixture of community | :27:07. | :27:13. | |
- communities working together, statutory authorities, central | :27:14. | :27:16. | |
government, all of these things have to work together and one of the | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
things we have to do from this experience is analyse where we have | :27:21. | :27:23. | |
done that well and where we haven't done it so well and make sure we | :27:24. | :27:26. | |
make the system more resilient. These things do seem to be happening | :27:27. | :27:29. | |
more often. We do have somebody here with very particular experience of | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
living in a very wet environment. You are the Vice Mayor of Rotterdam. | :27:33. | :27:39. | |
90% of Rotterdam is below sea-level. What is your advice? Well, | :27:40. | :27:46. | |
basically, we have seen that we experience worst weather in the last | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
few times, so climate change is really happening to our cities | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
and... We will come to climate change in a minute or two. But | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
specifically the engineering and property ideas that you have put | :27:58. | :28:00. | |
into place there to protect yourselves against flooding? | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
Basically, we are trying to learn to live more with water than to fight | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
it and the things that we do is - for instance, we create more green | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
areas into cities so the city can work more as a sponge, it can take | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
on the rain and it can keep it longer so it don't flood into the | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
sewage system or into the river. We build floating buildings and | :28:22. | :28:28. | |
buildings that are based on poles... This sounds pretty costly? It | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
doesn't have to be costly. We try to mix and combine functions. We have a | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
large storage facility that is a rowing course, or we have storage | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
facilities inside the cities that are also squares. We have buildings | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
with green roofs so we combine functions and we try to capture | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
water in green roofs, in storage facilities and we create room for | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
the river. And that means that in some areas, you have to be very | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
specific about urban planning and not build there or only build there | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
when you have the specific measurements that we talked about | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
earlier on. And make sure the house is going to float, or stand on poles | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
and if you do that into the planning system, if you do that early on, it | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
doesn't need to be very costly. You need to plan ahead and do that for | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
50, 100 years ahead to make sure that you take the right decision. | :29:26. | :29:33. | |
This community has existed for hundreds of years and frankly has | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
got accustomed to flooding over hundreds of years. That is fair | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
enough? Your grandfather and father were both flood wardens? This is not | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
a new experience? How much does anybody who lives here except this | :29:49. | :29:54. | |
is a matter of personal responsibility if you choose to live | :29:55. | :30:01. | |
on a flood plain? The EA used to dredge the river, which therefore | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
gives the river more capacity to take more water and you have not | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
done that. As far as I am aware, the dredging was sold in 2002 and we | :30:12. | :30:21. | |
flooded in 2003. Human incompetence, the Environment Agency stopped that | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
system working. Someone else's fault again? I have been advised that you | :30:26. | :30:35. | |
tried to hire the dredger back in 2003 to find it had been sold for | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
scrap. You have done nothing since, you have not fired another dredger | :30:40. | :30:47. | |
for the river. We have gone from 2003 and we have flooded in January | :30:48. | :30:54. | |
last month and again this month. It has not in dredge in 12 years. I do | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
not attend to be an expert but over the years I have represented... It | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
is clear that different solutions are different for -- right for a | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
different environments so what is right for the Somerset Levels is not | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
necessarily right here. Does dredging always work? No, it is not | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
necessarily the solution we need in most cases. It can speed up the | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
river flow and cause banks to collapse. My understanding is that | :31:26. | :31:34. | |
on this part of the Thames, because we have engineered structures, the | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
rate of the river is determined more by them than the bottom topography | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
so dredging would create more storage capacity because you are | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
taking the cherry from the river but it would not create a faster flow | :31:49. | :31:51. | |
and we must remember what we are talking about. In full flow, this is | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
400 tonnes of water every second coming down. You could dig a very | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
big hole but it will not take long to fill. Dredging cannot be the | :32:03. | :32:10. | |
whole solution because you were destroyed the ambience and beauty of | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
the river, one of the most attractive reasons for living here. | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
You have to do this carefully. Another area is what happens when is | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
a flood and all of the insurance implications of her? Currently, | :32:25. | :32:31. | |
there is an agreement with government covering small businesses | :32:32. | :32:33. | |
for flood insurance but that is going and in the Lords there is new | :32:34. | :32:39. | |
legislation which excludes small businesses so this pub would have no | :32:40. | :32:42. | |
guarantees. We think this is a retrograde step. The British | :32:43. | :32:49. | |
insurance brokers and the Federation of Small Businesses and the property | :32:50. | :32:51. | |
Federation and the national flood forum, we are concerned and we want | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
to know that the government will look to a solution in place for | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
small businesses as well. But let us be clear why we are in this | :33:01. | :33:06. | |
position. Insurers are not prepared to continue with the scheme that has | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
existed which is why the government had to negotiate a new solution with | :33:11. | :33:13. | |
insurers and the reason they were not prepared to continue is because | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
of what they saw as cherry picking with some insurers being prepared to | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
ensure high risk properties and other, typically newer, entrants to | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
the market only picking lower risk. So the solution that the government | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
has come up with in conjunction with insurers is a levy system that will | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
allow property owners to get access to reasonably priced flood | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
insurance, which is effectively supported by a small levy on the | :33:45. | :33:52. | |
insurance premiums on lower risk properties. That is a process that | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
is underway but it has not happened because the government decided one | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
morning to do things differently, it was because the insurance companies | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
decided there were not prepared to carry on with the system that had | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
operated in the past. When you have got massive wadis saying, one in | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
five businesses are in danger, there does need to be more conversations | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
with the industry about getting a solution in place. This is entirely | :34:18. | :34:25. | |
your fault? We are talking with insurers to get specialist schemes | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
in place but when they guarantee is taken away, but as our concern. You | :34:30. | :34:35. | |
want to be feather-bedded by the government? At the moment, to create | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
a solution for homes, you have to charge a levy and we think they | :34:42. | :34:48. | |
should be a similar system for small businesses where they will make | :34:49. | :34:51. | |
small contributions to help those few that cannot access affordable | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
cover. I want to move onto another that has been mentioned by our guest | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
from Rotterdam. As we saw earlier, this is not the first time this | :35:03. | :35:04. | |
village has been flooded, even in living memory. But the rainfall the | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
last few weeks has been extraordinarily high. The suggestion | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
is it may be to do with climate change. If that's so, we'd better | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
get used to this sort of event. Nick Milller is a meteorologist and so | :35:18. | :35:20. | |
ought to know what he's talking about. We will start to see the rain | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
intensified. The wind will ease down. Lots of showers. Wetter | :35:26. | :35:32. | |
conditions... If it seems the forecast from the Weather Centre is | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
stuck on repeat, it is because the weather so far has been singing one | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
train - wet and windy. The product of a very active jet stream driving | :35:44. | :35:46. | |
deeper areas of low pressure across the Atlantic. One after another. | :35:47. | :35:52. | |
Here comes another. If it seems hard to remember a time when the weather | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
was not like this, it shows how quickly we forget. This time last | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
year a prolonged spell of easterly winds were about to produce our | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
coldest is bring in 50 years and at the start of 2012 the displaced jet | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
stream was blamed as we stared down the barrel of the worst drought | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
since 1976. All very different weather patterns with a common link | :36:14. | :36:19. | |
- each persisted for many months. The Met Office has published an | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
analysis of our stormy winter and says it raises the possibility that | :36:24. | :36:25. | |
disruption of the usual weather pattern might be how climate change | :36:26. | :36:32. | |
may manifest itself, an area that it is actively researching. And it is | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
not just the frequency of storms that is notable but how much rain | :36:37. | :36:39. | |
they have produced and the Met Office says there is emerging | :36:40. | :36:46. | |
evidence that over the year, events might be more frequent. This graph | :36:47. | :36:52. | |
shows that what in the 1960s and 1970s might have been a one in every | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
125 day event is more likely one in 85 days. It is basic physics of warm | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
air contains more water, translating into more rain. What confuses this | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
is something we all know deep down - the Great British weather is | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
incredibly variable. The same weather records were used to compare | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
wet winters will show as many dry winters also. Our weather can and | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
often does go from one extreme to another. Conclusions for the long | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
term from one season of storms are, the Met Office says, impossible to | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
make and even if the weather is changing, attributing that to | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
man-made climate change is even more challenging. | :37:35. | :37:41. | |
To discuss the role of climate change in all this and how we tackle | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
it, I'm joined by the former Government Chief Scientist, who | :37:46. | :37:47. | |
advises the Government on climate change, Sir David King. And the Vice | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
Mayor of Rotterdam, Alexandra van Huffelen. Are you surprised by these | :37:52. | :37:58. | |
floods? I am surprised, it has happened earlier than I would have | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
expected. In the sense that we put in a report to the government in | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
2004 on flood and coastal defence and in that report we used the best | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
that science could reduce to anticipate what the challenges would | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
be for the British Isles. The biggest challenge from climate | :38:19. | :38:24. | |
change is flooding. So we set out in some detail, this was an enormous | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
piece of work, and the net result was that we said that within 20 | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
years, this sort of thing would be happening. Yes, it is all happening | :38:34. | :38:40. | |
more frequently. It was predicted that the timescale has collapsed? So | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
we're going to have to get used to more of this? As far as we can tell? | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
I believe there is going to be more of this, that is right. And what | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
this means is that the flood defences plan, which became an act | :38:56. | :39:01. | |
in 2010, needs to be continued to be rolled out. Have government 's this | :39:02. | :39:08. | |
and to this research? -- governments. Yes. And while it is | :39:09. | :39:14. | |
very important to listen to people suffering from flooding, what we are | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
not hearing from is the people who have not suffered from flooding. For | :39:20. | :39:27. | |
example, in the last ten weeks, the Thames Barrier has been closed 29 is | :39:28. | :39:37. | |
-- times. This is exceptional. That is one fifth of the usage of the | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
barrier since 1983. This is a very exceptional time. London has not | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
suffered in the way that these villages are suffering. We must not | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
forget that there are areas of Britain that have been managed | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
through this crisis. What lessons should be learned if the environment | :39:59. | :40:04. | |
is changing in the way that authorities suggest? We have seen | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
this and other parts of Europe, we have seen at last in Germany and so | :40:10. | :40:17. | |
on. What is coming from four sides, down the river, because of higher | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
sea levels, more extreme rainfall and ground water issues. What you | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
need to do is really find alternative ways to tackle these | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
issues. We used to build dams and dikes to protect ourselves but we | :40:33. | :40:38. | |
are seeing more novel ways. We need to live with water rather than fight | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
it and one of those things is getting rivers more room and you can | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
do that with dredging but you can literally give them more room. You | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
need to find more ways to store watcher and you need more green | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
areas outside cities but also inside cities where we can store water. | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
What does this sound like to you, who has been suffering? I looked to | :41:01. | :41:11. | |
the Norfolk area and irrelevance is that the sea defences programme | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
there in certain areas along the coastline, areas are allowed to | :41:16. | :41:22. | |
flood and houses have been lost. Are we saying that certain areas of | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
Berkshire will be allowed to flood along the River? Because at the | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
moment, the way the government has reacted, information from these | :41:33. | :41:34. | |
experts means nothing is happening -- happening in Datchit or in | :41:35. | :41:41. | |
Wraysbury. We knew that the flood was coming and on Tuesday the army | :41:42. | :41:49. | |
arrived and they build one wall with cameras rolling. Was this a PR | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
exercise? Why did they not just dump trailers into the residents and say, | :41:55. | :42:02. | |
lock up your area? We have had do this for ourselves and we will do | :42:03. | :42:10. | |
that. These two guys are making a bigger point about national and | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
international management. There are going to be places that will come | :42:15. | :42:20. | |
out of that less well than others. It is joined up thinking, I | :42:21. | :42:26. | |
represent Marlow and we had this if you days before Wraysbury but we | :42:27. | :42:30. | |
were able to predict the search coming down that would hit us three | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
days later and we were quite prepared and when the army turned up | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
today, we hadn't use for them. If we add a local level can predict those | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
floods coming and take our own defences, then why can the | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
government not take advice from a report and from locals, they know | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
that this is not a shock to anybody, it seems to be a shock to the | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
government. We know it is coming, your experts know, everybody knows | :42:59. | :43:08. | |
it is coming, except the government. To be fair... You said the | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
government did take your report seriously? Did they spend the money | :43:15. | :43:21. | |
you anticipated? The amount of money spent depends on the amount of money | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
that can be apportioned to this particular problem. By which I mean, | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
I am not the person sitting in the Treasury saying this amount on the | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
health service... That is a rather the logical argument. You have | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
investigated this matter at some length and in some detail and you | :43:41. | :43:43. | |
conclude that action needs to be taken. My question was, how they | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
spent the money they should have? Our report said in 2004... Yes or | :43:48. | :44:01. | |
no? ! Our report said that we must spend an additional sum of money | :44:02. | :44:03. | |
each year, adding to that sum of money. Has that happened? It | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
happened until the financial crisis. So it is not happening as Mac it has | :44:10. | :44:20. | |
stopped? -- it is not happening, it has stopped? We are the sacrificial | :44:21. | :44:28. | |
lambs for the likes of London and Maidenhead. We are all very | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
concerned about a very particular part of Britain. John, you had | :44:34. | :44:41. | |
flooding quite recently? Yes, that was a tidal surge, not rainfall. The | :44:42. | :44:49. | |
point is? It was a different type of flooding. It was a tidal surge up | :44:50. | :44:55. | |
the River Humber. That caused it. Did you see the Prime Minister and | :44:56. | :44:57. | |
the leader of the opposition tramping around in the middle of | :44:58. | :45:04. | |
this? We did not but this is an ever-growing event. And therefore, | :45:05. | :45:07. | |
it is becoming quite a national disaster. And quite naturally, | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
politicians have come along, as the disaster has grown. As a matter of | :45:13. | :45:19. | |
interest... The local MPs were there. They were there on site and | :45:20. | :45:27. | |
they would be giving the reports to the Government. Just so we know | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
where we all are, are we going to see this event happening again and | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
again with increasing frequency? You have heard some doom-laden things. | :45:38. | :45:44. | |
Put your hand up, come on. You are all very fatalistic then! Yes. | :45:45. | :45:50. | |
Anyone going to move house and leave the area? Who is going to buy our | :45:51. | :45:57. | |
houses? Jeremy, can I say that the Minister did say we are going to | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
listen to the local people. I don't wish to be unkind - seriously, I | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
don't wish to be unkind - but I don't believe him. We will see. We | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
have written to every Minister that's been involved with flooding | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
pleading, "Please come and see us because we are not satisfied with | :46:19. | :46:21. | |
what is happening. If you won't come, will you send a drainage | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
engineer to come?" Has he turned up yet? No. Thank you all very much. | :46:27. | :46:36. | |
OK. In 2003, we flooded. Our sewers were under water. Our substations | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
went under water. They said they would build them above water. He | :46:41. | :46:46. | |
said only 20 minutes ago we will learn. They had 2003 to learn from. | :46:47. | :46:52. | |
They had not lifted the substations or the sewers for the last four | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
weeks. We have been walking... I'm going to have to cut you off. We are | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
out of time now. That's it for tonight from Wraysbury. Until | :47:00. | :47:02. | |
tomorrow night, good night. | :47:03. | :47:05. |