18/02/2014 Newsnight

A The confrontation between a pro-Russian President and largely

pro-western demonstrators in Ukraine, looks as if it has come to

a head tonight. 14 people are reported dead. Thousands of police

are on the streets tonight in the centre of Kiev, protestors' tents

were set on fire, and there is predictions from Government

politicians that the demonstrations will be snuffed out tonight. Things

have already turned fatally violent. Can the country decide which way it

faces without further loss of life. And this... Calm yourself, man! The

lion must get back in its den! The public claim to hate all this

shouting, why do politicians think it is so big and clever? Farewell

Scott, for yo march leads only to death. Scott of the Antarctic gained

an immortality by failing to be the first man to the south pole. Now

another Britain has made exactly the same journey, we will ask Ben

Saunders what was he trying to provek Ben Saunders what was he

trying to prove? The drawn out couldn't frontation between the

President of the Ukraine and the protesters on the streets of his

capital intensified today and violence is on going. The police

storming the main camp right now. These are live pictures. 14 people

are said to have died there. There are fires on the roads into the city

and the hero of the protestor, the former heavyweight boxer, Mr Klitko

is off to see the President. The television channel reporting the

protests has shut down. Quite how and why the conflict suddenly

intensified seems still unclear. Joining us now live from Kiev is our

correspondent David Stern, it's too dangerous to broadcast outside so

let's have a talk to him in the studio.

What exactly set all this off? It is difficult to say what exactly set it

all off. The violence started early this morning, when protestors tried

to march on parliament where deputies were meeting to try to find

a resolution or way out of the crisis. But it very quickly

escalated. I was out on the streets this morning, as it raged out of

control, and in contrast to earlier clashes between riot police and

protestors, this was in a number of places. It would break out in one

spot and then break out in another spot. I saw protestors hurling

petrol bombs, bricks that they had ripped up from the street and the

police were returning fire with rubber bullets and stun grenades,

the sound was deafening. The smell of acrid smoke from burning tyres

and also from the teargas was everywhere. And then the violence

continues this evening with the protestors hunkered down in

Independence Square, that is their base of operation, it has been since

the protests began three months ago. At one end of the square the

protestors and the riot police are fighting again. The question is now

what will happen, will this he is can late further and will the

divisions between the Ukrainian protestors and the Government become

even greater? And will it carry over into Ukraine society as a whole.

When you look at the scenes on the streets there, is there a sense of

this being an endAnd will it carry over into Ukraine society as a

whole. When you look at the scenes on the streets there, is there a

sense of this being an end came It is difficult to say, people are

talking about Civil War. We are not there yet, the violence is

concentrated in Kiev, we have seen clashes in other cities. For the

most part it hasn't carried over into the countryside. But Civil War

is a possibility. So as I say, there seems to be a head being reached now

and a decisive moment of sorts. We will probably see more decisive

moments further down the road as well. Thank you very much for

joining us. Alan Little has been following the day's events. His

report contains some disturbing images. It is not clear what tipped

this long stand-off into open conflict. But the escalation when it

came was sudden, dramatic and deadly. Tonight Independence Square,

where anti-Government protestors have been camped, largely peacefully

for week, is burning. What began as an attempt to keep Ukraine on the

path to mainstream European democracy, even to European Union

membership one day has descended dangerously now into open civil

conflict. Protestors tore cobble stones from the streets, police,

defensive fired teargas round, used water canon, and some say live

rounds to try to gain control of the streets. TRANSLATION: I think today

after all this the people will rise up for real. You must understand for

people to really rise up what is needed. It lasted hours, as the

violence tore through the heart of Kiev, it was clear lives were being

lost. Three dead bodies lay in the street, three more in a building

close to the parliament. Hundreds are reported injured. The sight of

police officers retreating injured and in fear of their lives will

inflame opinion among those Ukrainians who support the

Government, at present Viktor Yanukovych. As many, especially in

the Russian speaking south and east of the Ukraine do. Reports that

policemen have been killed tonight will harden attitudes further. Many

in Ukraine's Government and crucially in Russia see the protests

as a criminal and even terrorist enterprise, supported by western

Intelligence Services. Ukraine is tonight more polarised than it has

been for years. TRANSLATION: In this situation leaders of the opposition

should take all responsibility for everything that is happening today

on the streets of Kiev. Over the past two days they themselves

announced today's march, which grew into a military confrontation.

Earlier it seemed tension was easing, protesters had even begun

leaving occupied buildings in return for guarantee they wouldn't be

prosecuted. But in parliament, opposition MPs trying to change the

constitution rein in the power of the President found their efforts

thwarted by the Government. Scuffles broke out, soon the conflict spilled

on to the streets. TRANSLATION: President Yanukovych must turn his

facts into parliament as required by the constitution, to vote for our

document and start solving the political crisis within parliament

and not in the streets with clashes, riot police and Special Forces.

Protests began in November when President Yanukovych, who has always

been backed by Russia, rejected a deal with the European Union, in

favour of closer ties with Moscow. Pro-democracy activists, especially

in Kiev and the west of the country, which feels itself closer to the

traditions of central Europe, saw that as a betrayal of Ukraine's

democratisation. And its progress to the European mainstream. The

conflict started about European integration and the question whether

Ukraine should go east or west, but the course of events it is in a way

united Ukraines from the two -- Ukrainians against corruption and

excessive use of force, right now we see a struggle between the ruling

regime and the protestors for human rights. But Ukraine is a country

pulled in opposite directions by its neighbours. The magnetic draw of the

European destiny offered by the EU is countered by the gravitational

pull of Moscow. And in future a Russian sphere of influence. In the

long run the Ukraine must find way to reconcile these two impulses. But

tonight, and urgently, the Government and the opposition must

find a way to pull the country back from the violence into which that

divide has tipped it. We're joined now from Kiev by the opposition MP,

from the UDA party, and by the professor from Yale University

talking to us from Vienna. Can you tell me please first off what is the

feeling like on the streets tonight, what is actually happening there? It

is a large scale attack on the Midan, the main camp of the

protestors. The fires have been going for more than four hours. One

of the police were boasting to the Russian side that Midan will be done

in a few hours but they continue. Klitschko the leader of the

opposition and another opposition leader went to meet Mr Yanukovych

and try to achieve some kind of ceasefire. But they, as far as I

know, are still not met by Yanukovych, it is a continuation of

violence still. Professor snider, you have made a long study of this,

what is this conflict really about? It is fundamentally about the rule

of law and the desire to live in place that is not corrupt, a place

where they know the children will be in school and they won't have to

bribe people. That is what they mean by Europe. They believe, many

Ukrainians and most believe they are ruled by a corrupt regime and

enriched itself from them, and in the last few weeks used violence

against them. That is what the conflict is fundamentally about. On

both sides there are now other actors who are highly engaged. In

the Russian case probably over engaged.engaged. , , to an outsider

looks extremely serious. When you have scenes like this on the streets

of a capital city, it looks very bad indeed. This is a defining moment,

do you think, professor, in how this confrontation is going to be

resolved? Well this is as bad as it has gotten. This is as bad as

anything has been in Ukraine, since Ukraine became an independent state

a quarter of a century ago. This is the worst moment of violence in this

series of protests. This could still get worse. The problem with today's

choice to use violence against the protestors is that it is going to

put Yanukovych in a position where he may have to choose whether or not

to double down. It is really unclear to me, as I think it is to most

observers is what to do next. Do you use more violence or begin

negotiations? This is as bad as it has gotten, but there are more

turning points ahead of us. Is it possible to see a resolution of this

crisis while the President stays in power? Well, we had all our hopes

for quite a long time, but actually probably one of the core reasons

that it came to that violence and that aggressive behaviour is because

Yanukovych and his entourage tried to ignore people's demands. For

three months in a row we saw he met no demands from the protesters. It

was simple at the beginning, actually punishment of those police

officers that beat innocent students on November 30th. Then freeing older

people who were in detention for political reasons. And also the

Government who did really poorly economically and actually stopped

the European integration. Those three conditions were very simple to

meet, but the Government wanted to continue on its own ways. It came to

that point of violence. The BBC learned today that the

National Health Service is postponing the implementation of a

new computer database. The NHS has blown billions of duff computer

systems before. This scheme is controversial because so many people

are worried about the implications of plans to share treatment records.

Possibly even with drug companies. The Information campaign to reassure

people hasn't been a screaming success, with some polls showing

four out of five doctors don't even understand how the thing would work.

Joining me now is our chief correspondent, you are just starting

here. There is a whiff of panic about this. This system was meant to

get going in days. It was designed to suck out your GP records into a

central database where most of that information would be anonymously

held. But it could be in a useable way, analysed and potentially

revolutionally for researchers and one day for drug companies to look

at patterns of disease, public health and the like. There is a

logic here because a similar system already exists for hospital, linking

up hospitals and GP surgeries where the majority of care takes place

makes sense. In recent days the volume of complaints h soared,

anxiety about potential data breaches and privacy, probably the

trickyist complaint of all is made by doctors, that frankly, huge

numbers of their patients hadn't a clue about what was about to happen

and they didn't want to detend fend it in front of them. -- defend it in

front of them. Those millions of leaflets doesn't seem to make a

difference, as they came through with a pizza menu most didn't

understand it was going to make changes. Have you had one? As a

straw poll of two, I haven't had one so neither you, 0%. Here to discuss

these issues is the GP representative for NHS England. This

isn't going to happen now immediately. Is it going to happen

for sure in six months time? I would absolutely hope so. OK so there is

nothing wrong with the policy it is a question of the failure to

communicate properly? It is amazing that something that has the

potential to transform the way we look after patients, something that

has been signed up by the major patient charities in this country

and one of the only parts of the Health and Social Care Bill that the

RCGP agreed to is having such bad press. My sense is it is caught up

in the age of mistrust, it is caught up in a lot of noise that's going on

around it, such as the mistrust happening around Snowden, and

actually it is something that is very positive that will help deliver

better patient care and better health services. Why have you so

singularly failed to communicate that to the public? There is an

issue there, of course there is. There has been failure to

communicate this. As I have said, if I was to back, to look at how we can

do this again, which actually we are going to do, we need to have a

relook at it, a relook at how we are going to inform the public of the

benefits of this programme. And actually start working with some of

the patient organisations that are concerned about this, to highlight

the real benefits to call all all of us. You would admit you have messed

up the communication? I do think there has been an issue, but dare I

blame the press. Why blame the mess, we haven't had them, take a poll of

all the technicians, I don't think anyone has any of these things?

There is major newspapers saying that police are getting access and

the information will be sold to insurance companies and for

commercial companies. It is misinformation. Can you give a

guarantee it will never be sold to insurance companies? It is illegal

to sell it for commercial purposes. There is no chance of it going to

drug companies? It depend what is they want, they can have access to

data now, if a drug company puts in an appropriate research protocol,

they have a legitimate reason to look at this. We are not talking

about drug companies to do it and then to sell you drugs and drop on

your doorstep a drug you don't want. My question is whether it could be

sold to drug companies? It will not be sold to drug companies. If you

ask would a drug company, could a drug company have a legitimate use

for information in monitoring long-term medications of course.

Private healthcare providers? They will not get access to this data.

All of them? Again, if a private health company wants to put in a

legitimate research protocol that goes through the ethical and legal

framework that anybody else has to, then they may potentionally have it

if they want to do something. Commercial entities will

potentionally have access? Commercial entities will not have

access to this data in order to start selling you products, to drop,

as you mentioned with the pizza, to drop advertising and material on

your desk. No that is you, you have done that? Neither would insurance

companies, neither will the police. This is for legitimate reasons, for

the first time in the history of the NHS we will bring together data that

is collected by myself in the practice with hospital data. The

other thing people are concerned about is precisely how easy it would

be to identify them. David Davis has already cited one case he has his

nose broken five times, matched that up, the number of people with

five-times broken nose is not very many, 100 or so? Yes, if you want to

take very... What about dip -- dyptheria vaccinations and dates? If

you are asking that vaccination and your date of birth, again it would

be very difficult. Will people's postcodes be disclosed? The way the

information, as your report said, it will be sucked up into a central

computer system, postcode, NHS number will be taken up into a

centralised system, in order to link it with the data that we have

already in hospitals. If you want to use it for research purpose, you

will have to go through proper ethical and legal process, that data

will not be entified. It will be what's called pseudo anonymised,

scrambled up. The only way you will have it is scrambled up data. When

you look in an organisation like the National Security Agency in the

United States, the most highly classified secrets in the world and

yet still man can get in there and publish them wherever he likes. We

can't have any confidences in these assurances you are giving? You have

had it for 25 years. Can you do a better job of keeping secrets than

the National Security Agency? Fortunately it is not my job because

I don't understand computers. But for 25 years there hasn't been a

breach of information to the level that you have just been decribing in

the national security office. Do you know how many serious data breaches

there have been in the last two years? I have been told, I do know,

it was on the front page of a major newspaper. What were you told? I

think there was something like 2,000 day if I remember rightly. Two

million a year? Two million start of 2011 and now? The vast majority of

those, the NHS needs to keep up with the times, the vast majority were

notes left on the back of cars, data stick, computers with information

not encrypted, what this is about is a safe, secure, legally binding

system held within the information centre which, as I have said up

until now, has not had a data breach. What's wrong with Wales, if

you wanted to keep a mouthful of teeth it wasn't a question you asked

there about this time of night. Now the chances are you will find plenty

Welsh people trying to give an answer. Wales is in trouble,

particularly in education. As its ambitions have grown, its

achievements have tumbled. A committee of the Welsh great and

good reports very soon on whether the cure for the failures of the

devolved Government of Wales is to give it more power. John Humphreys

who began his journalistic career as a cub reporter on the Mabinogion has

been back. A century ago Wales had two things

in abundance, coal and confidence. The one a consequence of the other.

This port in Cardiff exported more coal than any other port in the

world. It came from the Welsh valleys, just north of here. Every

other village pretty much had its own colliery. Now they have gone.

And with the coal has gone much of that confidence. The economy was

devastated. And yet, what you won't find in

Wales is many people had amenting the good old days. Because they

weren't good. Too many miners were killed in accidents, far too many

died slow deaths from the dust in their links. Promises were made when

the pits closed and the miners' jobs went with them, there would be new

jobs. But a town like Merthyr, built on coal and iron and once the

richest town in Wales, has gone through some terrible times and is

still in a bad way. And what has devolution done for Merthyr and for

Wales? (Children speak in Welsh a welcome) The Welsh heritage at least

as far as mining is concerned has goner? I think it is a shame. You

want your boy to go down the pit, I bet you wouldn't? No, but I think

there has been a loss to the valleys with a lot of self-respect and

industry has gone. It is part of our culture and heritage, it is part of

our identity. If you speak to some people in Merthyr and in the

concerning valleys, they have lost a sense of identity. There is a loss

because there aren't the stilled jobs they want to do. Jane's son is

at this school in Merthyr, a lovely little school doing well, but there

are many struggling. A recent OECD report found that Welsh education

had crashed down the PISA international league table, way

behind the rest of the UK in reading, maths and science. School

inspections in Wales found that one in four secondary schools were

unsatisfactory. And many blamed the changes brought in by the first

devolved Government 15 years ago, led by Labour ever since. At one

time we, I include myself in this, were immensely proud of what was

happening in schools throughout Wales. After deaf illusion what? I

think -- after devolution, what? When the Government came in they

were optimistic about what could be achieved in Wales. We have had

success, in some schools they tended to abandon the direct teaching of

phonics that we talked about earlier. I think that was perhaps

one of the mistakes that people made at that time. During the years I

think the Welsh Assembly has tried to produce a lot of initiatives.

Sometimes they haven't always given them a chance to embed. They haven't

always consulted with teachers at grassroots levels. We do have

schools with high standards and the challenge, I feel, for the Welsh

Assembly, to ensure that all schools improve and have that consistency in

terms of the quality they provide for their children. The Welsh First

Minister does not deny there are problems. What is wrong with he had

cautious can you argue, can't you, that you judge a nation by its

education, and judge its future by its education? We got rid of

testing, we relied on teachers to assess children. I think we have to

take another look at that. Because we know the teachers will assess

children in a particular way, and they may be overdoing it. We need to

make sure that teachers are able to benchmark their assessments in an

objective fashion. I think there is something we do need to revisit.

What isn't right is all our schools are bad, we have some excellent

schools, but we need to make sure those at the bottom raise their

standards to catch up. And that's why we have launched for example a

scheme called Schools Challenge Wales, where the bottom 40 schools

will receive money and sphere help them to catch up. Professor David

Reynolds of Southampton University is an expert on education and

advising the Welsh Government on how to improve its performance. In terms

of Government and success of devolution and Wales how important

is it? Vital, because an area where we have devolved powers, and if we

wish for more powers we would need to be showing that we can exercise

the present one as wellan exercise the present one as well. If you are

looking at the PISA numbers and you are seeing Wales and 40, and you see

Poland with cleverer kids for a third of the wages, the factory goes

to Poland. Merthyr needs to attract business, nearly a third of the

people work for the Government in one way or another. One was Kelly

who lives with her husband and three children on this big housing estate,

she lost her job last month, and they are husband has been looking

for work for five years. What happened to Merthyr, I lived here

many years ago admit lead and it was a very, at one point a very

prosperous town? The factories that were keeping people in jobs have

closed down and moved away. And the only proper industry around here now

is retail. Unfortunately. There is no, apart from the meat factory. Not

very nice jobs there? Not very nice jobs, and most of the people who

work there are Portuguese and Polish because that company is run by a

certain agency and they like to get the Portuguese and Polish in. Plus

you know they come over here they want a job and they will take

anything. And local people are not so keen on that. I don't know many

people actually who work there. But yeah, the only real industry around

here is retail. It is an odd thing in way, because retail to succeed

needs customers and customers have to have money, there is no money

because there is no jobs. Yes, it is a vicious circle. Do you have any

thoughts about weather devolution -- whether devolution has made a

difference. A significant difference to your lives? At the moment, with

the state that Wales is in I don't think devolution is the way. I would

love for Wales to be independent and I'm a nationalist through and

through. But unfortunately I can see so many problems. My impression is

that the Welsh are generally more enthusiastic about devolution than

they were when I lived here as a young man. Many English speakers,

the majority, of course, think there has been too much focus on promoting

the Welsh language. But there is no denying it has been effective. I

think the whole language and culture area I think is great success. And

the paradox is we were a success there but we don't seem to be able

to replicate that success so far. That's wonderful in lots of ways,

but it is not going to make Wales a success on the world stage? No it is

not. Develop ing a culture could lead into a country which is a theme

park for other people to come visit. We don't want that. We want to be a

country with culture, but a country with an industrial sector too.

Because that would have to underpin the prospect of our people --

prosperity of our people. Maybe the answer is to give the Welsh

Government more power. The commission set up by London agreed

with that. The question is how much more? You don't want independence,

you don't even envisage the possibility of independence, but you

do want more devolution, when does it stop? When does that process

stop, what more do you want? What What we need in the UK, call it a

constitutional convention to make sure that everybody what the

destination is, so there is a common way of devolving power in the future

so there is a proper place for England in the UK constitution,

which doesn't really exist at the moment, and everything is lob sided

at the moment. We need to make sure that changes in the future,

regardless of the result in Scotland. Wales had to change, with

or without devolution, the end of mining saw to that. But not

everything is different. The valleys still, praise be, have their male

voice choirs, like this one. And these MEP -- men are pretty

sanguine, only one wanted independence and he was English.

They want to get their schools right again and then we will see. Of the

many aspects of modern politics that go down like a bucket of cold sick

with the public, pre-eminent is the weekly bout of name-calling, jeering

and finger-pointing and other juvenile behaviour that goes by the

name of Prime Minister's Question Time. In his very first speech as

Tory leader David Cameron attacked what he called "Punch and Judy

politics", still he plays Mr Punch in politics each week and the

Speaker still revels in his own part as the Policeman, coming up with his

own lines telling MPs to "pipe down". The Speaker has written to

parties to tell MPs to knock it off. Let me ask him this... . Eering and

shouting) Quiet yourself. The hard-won

credibility we wouldn't have if we listened to the muttering idiots

sitting next to me. I have always found the hurly burly of Prime

Minister's Questions one of the best ways of finding out what a

politician is really like. Without that noisy House of Commons chamber

would we know that the usually smooth and civil David Cameron has a

slightly mean Flashman streak. Or that Ed Miliband can be wooden and

dithery under pressure. But as entertaining as journalists in the

press gallery find PMQs, those sitting in the public gallery are

rather less enthusiastic. They think there is too much party political

points scoring, it is too aggressive and doesn't always deal with the

important issues facing the country. I guess they didn't let women into

the Bullingdon club either, there we go. The House of Commons speaker,

John Bercow is naturally unsettled by this, and calling for decorum

rather than decible, less of the public school twitishness, but not

quite a call for Trappist amongst. Personally I think that any move to

make the Commons more like a monastery would be doing the public

a disservice. Some of the worst decisions the parliament has made

have been when the three parties cheerily nodded and agreed on an

issue rather than dissecting a bad bill. The one thing worse than a

passionate democracy would be a consensual and defer relation one.

Winston Churchill saw this when he was urged by MPs to rebuild a bombed

Commons with a circular chamber. He warned that he had seen many ardent

and ernest parliaments destroyed by this system. But the former Cabinet

Secretary was the only person he could see in an empty Select

Committee hearing a few weeks ago. If the public want to see ernest

lengthy debate parliament offers plenty of that. The problem is few

people attend these sessions, as is the case in Congress in the states

perhaps there isn't enough drama. Ed Miliband did try to tone things down

at the start of this year, but his new consensual approach fell flat

with his MPs looking far too somber. One of the problems is Conservative

MPs have organised themselves to make as much noise as possible at

PMQ, they are called the Q-Team, and include rowdy hecklers including the

PPS and the Skills Minister. They were only responding to Labour

heckler, the Shadow Justice Secretary, shadow leader of the

house, Shadow Cabinet office minister and the shadow char. They

are all -- Shadow Chancellor. They are all as bad as each other. But

while PMQs is as much as stoking primal enthusiasm, like these masks,

MPs could make it better. This is the one opportunity each week to

hold the Prime Minister to account. Some of the backbenchers choose to

waste their questions by sucks up to their boss in the vain hope of a

promotion. Others choose to Colleagues who -- jeer colleagues.

The Prime Minister could start leading by example if he wants

things to change. You really are a very overexcitable individual, you

need to write out 1,000 times, "I will behave myself at Prime

Minister's Questions". . With us now to discuss all this is the

Conservative MP, Jacob Rees-Mogg, and from Bristol the Liberal

Democrat Tessa Munt. Are you embarrassed that this is what the

public see of parliament? It is the bit they look at and join. They like

Prime Minister's Questions and watch it far more than any other bit of

parliament. They sadly don't listen to my long and worthy speeches.

Tessa Munt, he has a point, it does at least bring parliament into the

public eye? Yes it does, but for all the wrong reasons, I would say. I

don't think that the playground of that particular political arena is

very sensible at all. I think it is clear from the happen standard

report -- Hansard report that the public think it is very good. You

haven't a very good speaker at present that could be the

explanation? We have a reforming speaker at present. It never crossed

my mind when I was selected that there would never be a time when

select committees are appointed rather than elected, which I was.

There are a number of things he has done, and I suspect PMQs will be the

last and next one, so. Is it a male thing, do you think, Jacob

Rees-Mogg? I don't know, in the pictures that came up there were

quite a number of lady MPs who also heckled. But I think it is actually

a democratic thing. That people feel the points they are arguing about

very strongly, they want to put them across forcefully. Ed Miliband

thinks David Cameron should be... You don't believe that? I do. It is

all you people who were in the Oxford Union, jeering, cheering? It

is not. I fundamentally disagree, and actually the reason people enjoy

this programme is because you are good at skewering politician, it

makes politics exciting. Now you are doing the finger pointing? I do

apologise. You go ahead. I don't call you any names? Well the Prime

Minister very rarely calls people names. By and large it is questions

about policy and they are forcefully held views that the opposition is

challenging the Government about its economic, health and education

policies. Those things are felt strongly. Politicians aren't

entirely cynical operatives, they do actually believe in things and have

principles. Why are you shaking your head, doesn't this apply to you? No,

I think it is tosh, if you want to listen to people being held to

account for their views and policies go to the ordinary question session

that is take place at the beginning of every day in parliament. Prime

Minister's Questions is just a complete charade, it is ludicrous

behaviour, it is completely stupid. It is just like I guess a public

school debating club or something. It is just rubbish that this holes

the Prime Minister to account. There is all sorts of questions that if

anyone mentions the word "Europe" or "one-nation" the whole place bursts

into flames and everybody just, I don't know it is ridiculous. I have

been in there and I have actually writen to the speaker on occasion,

last year, when it just got completely ridiculous and people

were being bullied. There is a savage undertone to some of this.

Some people stand in the chamber to ask their questions and they are

bullied relentlessly by the other side or people behind them or

whatever. It is very unattractive to try to persuade people to go into

politics if that is what they say they have to go through. Who are the

worst offenders? Goodness me I wouldn't know, I couldn't name

people. I expect that probably if you went back to the speakers tapes.

If you care so much name some names? Well there was a comment last week

wasn't there where somebody said it would be quite nice to have day in

parliament where Mr Gov, he's name wasn't mentioned for some reason of

behavioural. Apart from the Secretary of State for Education

anybody else? I think there are people on every side. I think there

are people who. I don't engage in this stuff. Even sainted Liberal

Democrats? There might be, I don't engage in that and I have encouraged

us not to do that. Let's have some names? There are people who are

cloud and enthusiastic, I sit in front of those people. Who are

there? I'm not going to mention them there are enough of them engage

anything that. There are rumours that the whips sent out

congratulatory texts to the major t parties about doing well done about

the wall of sound. We are getting tittle tattle thirdhand of what is

happening in different situationingses, and you have named

Michael Gove and everything names him? We want to make sure that the

issue of harrassment and bullying that takes place needs to be sorted

out. It is for people to adjust their own behaviour. Frankly, I have

been to a county council meeting earlier on this evening, if a town

council behaved in that way they would be put in special measures. If

we had children behavic like this in school they would be taken out and

dealt with. Is there any chance of this changing? I hope not, it would

be ghastly if the Commons were stopped. You wouldn't let children

behave like this in class? Children in class are being taught things

specifically and are meant to be learning. In the House of Commons we

are challenging ideas and in the heat of debate some ideas and

individuals fail. That's very important. Because we want a lead

whore is tough enough to be able to cope with a few people Braing at

him. It is not the end of the world. For God's sake look after our

people, the last words written by Captain Robert Falcon Scott in his

diary just before dying in Antarctica, retain their resonance

after 100 years. Famously Captain Scott had set tout plant the British

flag at the South Pole, discovered he was beaten by the Norwegians, and

perished in the bitterist of bitter cold trying to walk 700 mimes back

to the expedition baize. Now two Antarctic explorers have made the

same journey, without the same dramatic consequences. One of them

is here, Ben Saunders, why did he do it? One of the most bute of places

on earth, Antarctica is not for the faint hearteded, temperatures can

fall to minus 27 Celsius. And the distances are prodigious. In 1927

Robert Falcon Scott took a hand-picked team to claim the pole

for the British Empire. They were beaten to it and never completed the

return journey, perishing a dozen miles short of their final food

depot. In over 100 years since then, no-one has tried to repeat Scott's

journey successfully until now. Ben Saunders prepared for ten years to

follow in the footsteps of Scott's expedition. In October last year

STHET off for the UK. Using the latest technology, including a

specially designed satellite dish. They followed the route plotted by

Scott and his name. Scott's team had to work in relays as they prepared a

five-man unit for a final dash to the poll. Ott and his name. Scott's

team had to work in relays as they prepared a five-man unit for a final

dash to the poll. After finding out they had been beaten to the pole he

wrote "the worst has happened, everything must go". Technology can

do nothing to improve the weather for the new explorers. They were

able to talk by satellite phone throughout their journey and blog

about it. It still took 105 days on the ice. By the time the journey was

over they had lost 20 kilos in weight each. Ben Saunders talked in

his blog of sledges that never seemed to become lighter, rumbling

stop mocks, home sickness, sleep deprivation, deep fatigue, and a

land can a scale that defies comprehension. A scale that

threatened at times to crush their spirits and cut early to exchaste

their bodies. But a scale that left an impression on them that will stay

for the rest of their livesst of their lives. The story of Captain

Scott is wonderful and dramatic. People know it but would not choose

to recreate it? I have still not got a response to that. We weren't

exploring in the same sense as Scott were. We weren't drawing maps or

anything like that The thing that fascinated about this is why wasn't

the journey finished. Why wasn't it? It is a heck of a long way. Even

nowadays. 700 mile walk? Even with vitamin see and solar panels and

velcro and all these essentials, it is a journey still close to the

limits of what happened. It is immensely gruelling and we saw some

of the words you used to describe t and mentally pretty taxing? Very

hard. I have been dragging shreds sleds for a lot of years. I

underestimated how mentally tough it would be, especially within the

weather was bad. Scott and his team were alone. You weren't in the sense

that you had communications, does that make it easier or more

difficult? It can be a double-edged sword, it was wonderful to be able

to write. We had a blog, which we were sending back every day live

from the tent. You saw the little laptop we had. Scott was the writer

and it was Scott's diary that inspired me many years ago. They are

fantastic? He was an amazing writer, very poignant and courageously

towards the end. I'm not a photographer, film maker or artist,

writing has been the way to share stories of this trip. It was

wonderful to be able to tell that story as it unfolded in real time.

The telephone is a different thing. Being able to phone my mum, who I

think was picturing... Did you phone your mu Fairly regularly. You phoned

her from the South Pole? I phoned her every few days. My mum imagined

the 11-year-old schoolboy Ben in the Antarctic, packed lunch and lost in

the blizzard. But she was worrying at times, I think. The phone is a

double-edged sword, and of course we had a safety net. The knowledge that

our suffering was entirely self-imposed was a hard thing to

deal with at times. Scott never had the option of being airlifted out

which we had all the time. We had to dial a number and make the suffering

end. So in that sense it was a test. One final very quick question, why

haven't you got a bigger beard? It was removed couple of days ago, I

got fed one it, there was food and stuff going in it. That's it for

tonight. We leave you with the news of the Lego Movie, which easily

topped the film charts on its release this weekend, making the

brick stars of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, we have learned that

the sim somes are next on the road to Lego makeover.

Whatever next. Next. Ever Any mist and murk will clear

through the afternoon and beginning to break holes in the