Browse content similar to 24/02/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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she's the victim of a politically motivate the smear campaign. It is | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
not the case that my work, when I was at NCCL was influenced or | :00:24. | :00:32. | |
colluding or apologising for paedophilia, it is an unfair | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
inference and a smear. And this: A year I was diagnosed with diabetes, | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
linked to poor diet and being overweight. He's the head of the | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
NHS, what hope is there for the rest of us. David Nicolson is here to | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
talk to us about whether the service can cope with an explosion of | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
long-term conditions. What is wrong with a butcher advertising where | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
meat comes from? This foot critic quite likes it. -- this food critic | :01:01. | :01:09. | |
quite likes it. The accusations are explosive that | :01:10. | :01:17. | |
in the 1970s and 1980s senior Labour Party figures were involved with an | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
organisation that supported paedophilia. The Daily Mail's | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
campaign has been noisy and aggressive, and until tonight | :01:26. | :01:28. | |
unanswered. The question is, how could the deputy leader of the | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
Labour Party, her husband and another senior Labour Party official | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
have any dealings with an organisation involved in the sexual | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
exploitation of children. How did the pressure OK group they worked | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
with at the time ally with a campaign to reduce the age of | :01:45. | :01:52. | |
consent to ten. Over recent days the Daily Mail has splashed its front | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
pages with allegations about the Labour Deputy Leader, her husband, | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
and the former Labour Health Secretary, Patricia Hewitt. All | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
three worked for the National Council for Civil Liberties in the | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
1970s and 1980s. The human council now known as Liberty, was closely | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
linked to the peeped yale Information Exchange -- paedophiles | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
Information Exchange. It is argued it tried to lower the age of consent | :02:25. | :02:33. | |
to ten. Mrs Harman was a leader there in 1978. Her name appears on | :02:34. | :02:40. | |
papers to the Home Office, that pictures of naked children should | :02:41. | :02:47. | |
not be disproved only if it was proved that the children had been | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
harmed. Harriet Harman is a person of huge dignity and integrity, I | :02:53. | :03:00. | |
have known her for 20 years, I don't listen to these allegations, I know | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
she is on the right side of all these issues, that is clear. After | :03:05. | :03:07. | |
days of demands from the Daily Mail and other newspapers for Hewitt, | :03:08. | :03:15. | |
Dromy and Harman to provide answers, the Labour Deputy Leader has decided | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
to break her silence. We spoke exclusively to Harriet Harman | :03:21. | :03:22. | |
earlier this evening. Harriet Harman, are you speaking out now | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
because the Daily Mail has made it impossible for you to keep quiet? | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
Yes, that is the case. I mean they have made these allegations before | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
and they are so outlandish and so far from the truth that in the past | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
I have thought, don't dignify them with a response. People won't | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
believe them, they will just go away. I thought the same this time. | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
They have put it on their front page three times, they are whipping up | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
such an ugly insinuation that I felt it was really important to respond | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
to them. But you were the legal officer for several years at the | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
national Aum for civil liberties, which was affiliated to the | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
Paedophile Information Exchange, were you aware of the affiliation? | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
It was an organisation that had something like 6,000 members and | :04:11. | :04:18. | |
1,000 affiliates, and anybody could join by paying a fee. When I was | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
there as legal officer there was nothing, far from it, that I put | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
forward that supported sexual abuse of children. But why was it | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
acceptable, even to have an affiliation, they didn't try to hide | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
what they were, the heightle of the group was The Paedophile Information | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
Exchange, why was it OK for them to have any link with the group you | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
worked with? NCCL was an organisation where any organisation | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
could pay their affiliation and join it. And that's the way it was. It | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
didn't have an expulsions policy. Any individual who wanted to pay | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
their money to join NCCL could, and any organisation could join and | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
affiliate to it. And affiliation is an official link, and when you were | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
the legal officer at the National Council for Civil Liberties, did you | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
do anything to suggest that link should be broken, did you do | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
anything to try to push them away from your organisation? They had | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
already been pushed away. They will still members until 1983? They had | :05:21. | :05:27. | |
been pushed away in 1976, the policy was set by the broad membership of | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
NCCL at their annual general meetings. In terms of that | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
affiliation, did you have anxiety about that at the time? Well the | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
anxiety and controversy had happened before I was there. But did you not | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
have anxiety about the continuing affiliation while you were there, | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
you were there for four years, you were there with one of your close | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
friends and husband. Did you none of you discuss anxieties about having | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
them as a group linked, however distantly to the work that you were | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
trying to do? But they were not linked to the work that we were | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
doing. You see at the time when you were the legal officer there, you | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
wrote in a briefing paper to MPs, and we have it here, prosecutions in | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
relation to child protection and photography should only proceed if | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
you can prove that children were actually harmed, now making that | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
argument while the National Council was linked to the Paedophile | :06:20. | :06:26. | |
Information Exchange, can you see why people might raise an eyebrow | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
about that argument being made while there was an official link to an | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
overt group of paedophiles. If you look at the briefing paper it | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
welcomes the Protection of Children Bill, which for the first time would | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
introduce a criminal law that said photography of children which would | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
be used for pornography, which was sexually Ayew Bewsive of -- sexually | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
abusive of children was for the first time be a criminal offence. We | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
also argued that we wanted it to have clear definitions. Was the | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
affiliation between the two groups a mistake? There wasn't an affiliation | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
between the two groups. You are making it sound like there was a | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
mutuality. There wasn't. Technically there was an affiliation, they paid | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
their membership to the NCCL, they were part of the wider group, was | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
that a mistake? They paid their money to NCCL and at the time, NCCL | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
takes money from any organisation which was a lawful organisation and | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
any individual. Was it a mistake to have that affiliation? I think what | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
was right was to actually dispel them from the conference and make | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
sure that their views were never taken forward by NCCL, that is what | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
the big clash was. It is a very simple question, yes or no, was it a | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
mistake to allow an overt group, publicly campaigning for paedophiles | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
to be affiliated, which is the term they used, to the National Council | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
for Civil Liberties, when you were legal officer? On the basis that it | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
has created some how a sense that NCCL's work was therefore tainted by | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
them, yes, obviously, that is a very unfortunate inference to have. But | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
it is not the case that my work when I was at NCCL was influenced by PI, | :08:16. | :08:27. | |
or was colluding or involved in paedophilia and it is a smear. Why | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
won't you say whether or not it was a mistake, to have affiliation, you | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
could have sent back the membership fees or thrown them out? It was not | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
the sort of organisation which actually people applied to. And were | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
then vetted, you know, are you able to give your donation? More than | :08:44. | :08:50. | |
1,000 organisations, you know had all sorts of different things. This | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
was a group you were well aware with, why won't you with the benefit | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
of decades of hindsight just say yes it was a mistake for there to be any | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
affiliation? They were challenged and pushed aside from their views | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
having influence. Your implication is that some how by giving money | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
NCCL was influenced, it wasn't. I don't know what they gave, ?10 a | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
year, I don't know. But the policy was set by NCCL Annual General | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
Meeting. You were happy your employer for four years took | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
membership money from a group that was overtly campaigning for the | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
rights of paedophiles, that wasn't a mistake, that is what you were | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
saying? I was content with the fact in the knowledge that nothing that I | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
did supported paedophilia in any way, shape or form. But you are | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
happy for the National Council of civil liberties to have taken money | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
from a paedophile group. I wasn't happy that the group existed. They | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
shouldn't have existed. They were obviously you know a front for very | :09:55. | :10:00. | |
bad people who I think many of them were then prosecuted. Is this the | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
beginning of another big battle between the Labour Party and the | :10:05. | :10:07. | |
Daily Mail, your party leader already has had a huge battle with | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
them? This is not battle I'm seeking, this is the Daily Mail | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
aggressively trying to completely reshape the facts of a situation 30 | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
years ago. It is ironic that they are accusing me of supporting | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
indecency in relation to children, when they themselves are not above | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
producing photographs of very young girls, titivating photographs in | :10:34. | :10:41. | |
bikinis, I stand by what I was doing at NCCL, and I stand by what I have | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
done all the way through. Are you accusing the Daily Mail of printing | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
indecent images, it sounds very much like you are making that accusation? | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
If there is anybody who has over the years supported indecency, it is | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
much more the Daily Mail than it is me. That is the frank truth of it. | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
Laura joins us now, has this explanation made things better or | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
worse? Well, I think it is certainly not made the problem go away, not | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
least because as you heard time and again we asked Harriet Harman | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
whether it was a mistake to have this affiliation, however close or | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
distant with the Paedophile Information Exchange, she refused to | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
say it. Those people who have been following this story closely, not | :11:23. | :11:24. | |
least the Daily Mail, frankly, will be really wound up by that. At the | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
end of the interslew she hit back -- interview, she hit back at the | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
newspaper accusing them of printing the things that they themselves | :11:34. | :11:36. | |
might consider indecent. That will be frankly like a red rag to a bull. | :11:37. | :11:44. | |
You have the front page? Still the Daily Mail have "still they won't | :11:45. | :11:51. | |
say sorry". Given the vociferousness of the campaigned why the it might | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
be wrapped up is not likely. What sort of state was she in? She had | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
clearly thought about how she was going to present her case. You see | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
they have gone back over the evidence, the document, some of them | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
the Mail has published. She's clearly very familiar with them, but | :12:07. | :12:09. | |
the Daily Mail has told us tonight as far as they are concerned today's | :12:10. | :12:15. | |
statements from Miss Harman they have described it have been full of | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
peasantry and obfuscation, they say it is the paper's job to ask | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
controversial questions. There is a sense of exasperation, some of the | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
allegations have been made before. Miss Harman has never spoken out | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
publicly like this, in a sense she's at the end of her tether. I don't | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
think this is the end of the row. The new Government in Ukraine is, | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
according to the Russian Foreign Ministry, nothing more than an armed | :12:41. | :12:47. | |
mutiny, hell hath no fury than a superpower scorned, and Moscow is | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
warning of the dangers it sees to the many ethnic Russians living in | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
the Ukraine. It is the sort of language used to justify military | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
intervention in other parts of the Soviet Union. Russia was using words | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
like "terrorist" and "dictator" to describe the new Government in | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
Ukraine. Our reporter Gabriel Gatehouse is still in Kiev and sent | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
this dispatch. The streets still wear the scars of | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
last week's violence. Many are still trying to digest the sheer enormity | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
of it. But the new authorities are now trying to understand exactly | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
what happened, who the shooters were, and who gave the orders? On | :13:27. | :13:42. | |
Thursday morning, this street turned into a deadly firing range. Some of | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
the shooting was coming from the protestors, who had suddenly charged | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
on police lines. But most of the gunfire came from the police | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
themselves. And they were using snipers. So these originated from | :13:58. | :14:04. | |
the top of the bank and then the second high advantage point was | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
here? The round one, yeah. In Kiev today British forensic experts were | :14:10. | :14:16. | |
collecting evidence. And this was high velocity round. Would that mean | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
a sniper rifle or an AK? I think this is sniper because the position | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
over there, near the metal lampost, the bullet holes are very, very | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
close together. They asked us to conceal their identities, their | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
work, they said, was politically sensitive. There is one particular | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
clean shot up here which lines up with the balcony over here. Using | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
the bullet scars as their guide, they are trying to work out exactly | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
where the snipers' were positioned. If you look through here and you | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
just see a direct line of sight with the balcony of the bank building | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
over there. That is amazing how you can work that all out. It was a | :15:00. | :15:09. | |
bloodbath really, wasn't it. Today the new Ukrainian Interior Minister | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
issued a warrant for arrest of Viktor Yanukovych, the former | :15:14. | :15:16. | |
President, on charges of mass murder. Whatever the British | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
investigators find here could be used in a future prosecution. We are | :15:23. | :15:29. | |
looking at the sniper positions and who would be responsible for the | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
deaths of the people in that area. The investigators say there were at | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
least four sniper position, one at ground level, here at this | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
barricade. And then another three in the tall buildings behind it over | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
there. And the snipers were shooting directly down this road, in the | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
direction of the hotel where they were staying and the square beyond. | :15:50. | :15:57. | |
In the past 24 hours new footage has emerged showing police marksmen at | :15:58. | :16:06. | |
that barricade on Thursday. Most are armed with Kalashnikov Assault | :16:07. | :16:15. | |
Rifles. But some are clearly carrying sniper rifles. A Ukrainian | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
MP today said he had uncovered documents that proved that the | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
security operation that ended in so many deaths last week had been | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
authorised at the very highest levels. TRANSLATION: There are | :16:28. | :16:36. | |
documents with details of the whole security operation, I have made some | :16:37. | :16:39. | |
of these papers public today. They contain the exact names and | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
locations of the snipers and the names of those in charge. Kiev is | :16:43. | :16:49. | |
now a city where law and order rests in the hands of loosely organised | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
vigilante groups, calling themselves Self- Defence of Midan, they do more | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
than man barricades, they guard Government buildings saying they | :17:00. | :17:02. | |
want to ensure an orderly handover of the state. We are closely | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
co-operating with the state guards. For instance in the presidential | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
administration it is state guards who control the building from | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
inside. We are controlling the whole perameter, nobody is capable of | :17:16. | :17:18. | |
entering the building without our permission. If you control the | :17:19. | :17:26. | |
buildings, who controls you? I think it is a good question. No-one? There | :17:27. | :17:35. | |
is a Council of People who are with us. That's one thing. Who are those | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
people? Those people are heads of units. At night these heads of units | :17:42. | :17:50. | |
roam the streets of the city, groups of menacing-looking men with body | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
armour brandishing clubs. Last night we saw a man being dragged off by | :17:56. | :17:58. | |
one of these groups, destination unknown. The police have virtually | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
disappeared. The hunt is now on for Viktor Yanukovych. At his oppulent | :18:05. | :18:07. | |
compound on the edge of Kiev, the only sign of him was on his | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
personalised liquor bottles. Ordinary Ukrainians flock there in | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
their thousands, an eye-popping weekend outing. This was his | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
floating bang the questioning hall. There was also a zoo, complete with | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
Ostrich and other possibly edible birds. The duck house, that ultimate | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
symbol of corruption, was much in evidence. Where does the money come | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
from? Of course from our money, from our taxes. And my relatives and | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
friends said that they like to joke th every teacher who wants such a | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
building in Ukraine. They say it is one of the world's wonders. | :18:50. | :18:51. | |
TRANSLATION: Ukraine's leaders face an | :18:52. | :19:02. | |
argumentative electorate. Politicians are called to explain | :19:03. | :19:05. | |
themselves directly to the people. It is a very difficult task but I'm | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
more than sure we want very much and we have control of the people. You | :19:11. | :19:12. | |
don't control them? The people control us, because they move the | :19:13. | :19:20. | |
Government away and the new Government will be bad they will | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
move us. But much more badly, because the people died for that. | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
This time people say they can't just go back to business as usual. We | :19:31. | :19:37. | |
have already paid too high a price. Gabriel Gatehouse joins us now from | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
Kiev. What's the feeling there about these noises being made. Menacing | :19:43. | :19:52. | |
noises being made in Moscow. Ukrainians are strangers to menacing | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
noises in Moscow, they have heard them over gas wars and other | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
incidences, for those who fear a Russian invasion is now, they hear | :20:02. | :20:11. | |
Mr Medeyev talking about armed mutineers and passport issuing, they | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
are worried. For those who say it will be all right, they look at the | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
fact that statement was made by Mr Medeyev and not Putin. Having backed | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
from Yanukovych so heavily and Putin was heavily involved in the | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
negotiations, that led to that abortive deal that saw Yanukovych | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
almost save his skin by offering fresh elections by December. They | :20:33. | :20:35. | |
have to speak out. It is a matter of pride. But I think also they will be | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
looking at the same picture that you are seeing behind you there, Jeremy. | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
That is an almost empty square. There is almost zero chance that | :20:46. | :20:48. | |
Viktor Yanukovych can come back from this. So they will look forward and | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
think how do we work with whoever it is to come. They will probably hope | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
it will involve Eugenia Tymoshenko in some form or another. Now to | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
National Health Service. In public opinion terms the NHS has come to | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
occupy a status that the Church of England could only dream of even in | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
its hey day. The chief executive of the National Health Service in | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
England, Sir David Nicolson, is retiring next month. He leaves | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
behind an organisation that has just been through yet another | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
reorganisation, yet that is still on track for a predicted shortage of | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
tens of billions of pounds a year in the future. With more and more | :21:30. | :21:31. | |
people in need of long-term treatment. We invited him to | :21:32. | :21:39. | |
reflect. I have been the chief executive of the NHS for eight | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
years, I think it is the best job in the world. REPORTER: Can we ask some | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
questions? But like many jobs you can pay a price in relation to your | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
lifestyle. A year ago I was diagnosed with diabetes, linked to a | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
poor diet and being overweight. In the next few weeks I will stop being | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
the chief executive of NHS England and will be just a patient. One of | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
the 15 million people in this country who suffer from long-term | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
conditions. The NHS has come a long way. We have cut waiting times to | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
some of the shortest in the world, stack -- tackled the scourge of | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
hospital infections and saved thousands of lives by improving | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
heart and cancer services. As a direct result of that success, we | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
now have more and more people living to an old age, which at least one | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
long-term condition. The NHS spends a staggering ?1. Five million an | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
hour for services on diabetes, for people like me. Is that money spent | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
in the best possible way? No it isn't. We spend far too much of it | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
on the complication of diabetes, the amputation, the heart failure, the | :22:51. | :22:59. | |
strokes, We need to spend more on prevention. Andrea has diabetes and | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
has been in and out of hospital for years. Daily living, you are rushing | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
about, I have children, dropping them here, there and everywhere, I | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
don't always eat when I should eat. So obviously that has an affect on | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
my diabetes. I would like to be helped at home more so, that I don't | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
have to come into hospital as much. If there was, I did have a community | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
nurse, but it brokedown. So I ended up coming back to hospital. But | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
something like that would be great for people with diabetes. It is not | :23:33. | :23:39. | |
just Andrea who thinks this, future of the NHS must be about the shift | :23:40. | :23:42. | |
of services, out of hospital and closer to people's homes. So in this | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
part of Birmingham we have already been able to reduce the number of | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
hospital beds by 300 and make sure the money we were using for that | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
care is delivered in the community nearer to where the patients are. | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
These ideas aren't radical. But implementing them across the NHS is. | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
As part of this, the NHS needs to continue to embrace technology, to | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
give patients control over their treatment. One of the ways in which | :24:10. | :24:16. | |
I can take control of my own health and healthcare is by the use of | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
simple technology. I can text my GP information about myself, he can | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
analyse it and send me back useful and helpful advice. This saves me | :24:26. | :24:32. | |
time, and takes pressure off my GP. If we want an NHS that works in the | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
future, we need to give patients more control, we need to give | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
communities like these more control over the NHS. We also need to have | :24:42. | :24:47. | |
the ambition to make radical change, to make the kinds of changes that | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
will improve services for our patients and their outcomes. | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
Sir David Nicolson is here now. In your judgment, with your long | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
experience coming up to retirement, do you think the NHS can continue | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
like this, funded by taxation and free at the point of need? I think | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
this is a really important point. If you look at my colleagues across | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
Europe and the developed world, all healthcare systems are having the | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
kind of challenges that I described in the film. And there are different | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
ways of dealing with them. Some countries are going down the road of | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
significantly reducing the amount, the pay for their staff. So 15-20% | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
reductions in pay for doctors and nurse, places like Ireland. There | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
are some other places like Greece, Portugal and Spain, who are looking | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
at reducing the offer patients. That is not the way we want to do it at | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
the NHS, we are completely committed to the universally free at the point | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
of use point. It is difficult to do that. You think it can continue as | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
it is? It absolutely can. Despite the looming ?30 billion deficit? If | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
we tackle the issues. That is around giving patients more control, but | :26:00. | :26:02. | |
also being radical about the way we reorganise our health service as | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
providing much more services in the community and reducing the size of | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
our hospitals. So fewer hospitals? They have to be reduced in size. | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
Whether or not they are fewer. Individual hospitals reduced in | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
size? Absolutely. But nobody likes to have their hospital shut down or | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
reduced in size do they? That is why it is often very difficult for | :26:27. | :26:29. | |
people to do that. That is why it is controversial. But it is absolutely | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
vital. Doesn't it follow from that then that politicians are quite the | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
worst people to make these sort of judgments? Well it is one of the | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
reasons we have been through the whole range of reforms we have had. | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
To give an organisation a responsibility for looking beyond | :26:46. | :26:54. | |
the electoral cycle. That is NHS England. Is the Secretary of State | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
responsible in that process? All the politicians I have worked with over | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
the years, and no political party has a monopoly on good ideas about | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
the NHS. Working with the current Secretary of State, when faced with | :27:10. | :27:11. | |
a difficult decision he's prepared to take it. And take it beyond the | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
political cycle? That I think is the issue for us going forward. There is | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
no doubt, if you want to make change in the NHS you need to think three, | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
five, seven years out, and the tyranny of the electoral cycle | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
stands. And the Secretary of State is prepared to do that? To make the | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
difficult decisions and has done on every occasion. But the system works | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
against you. If you think about it the ical cycle goes it is 18 months | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
before a general election, therefore we cannot make change. Then around | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
the Hustings, politicians go around and promise things to their local | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
populations that things will not change. And then you have a period | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
afterwards where people say, we made these promises, we can't make change | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
happen. Then you have a year inbetween those two things where you | :27:59. | :28:01. | |
can make change. That is no way to run a health service. That is why, I | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
think, we need NHS England. It is also not what happened, of course. | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
After the last election, this coalition came in and made all sorts | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
of changes that they hadn't talked about? Not about the delivery of | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
healthcare. It was about the reform to the NHS system as a whole. Be | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
honest now, after all the changes you have been through in the NHS, | :28:23. | :28:25. | |
when this Government came in and suddenly announced a lot more | :28:26. | :28:33. | |
changes, what did you think? My immediate response was I have been | :28:34. | :28:36. | |
through a lot of these structural changes before. They seldom deliver | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
what people expect and they create a lot of issues around people taking | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
their eye off the ball. So what I had to do, and part of my | :28:45. | :28:47. | |
responsibility is to help the Government come to a sensible set of | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
conclusions that were implementable. Were you dismayed? I did say that it | :28:52. | :28:58. | |
was a very large set of changes. I did think that we would spend more | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
time than we needed to looking at ourselves rather than thinking about | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
services and the way we need to change. It was unhelpful really? It | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
has done a whole series I think of very helpful things. It has brought | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
in general practitioners and clinicians into planning and | :29:15. | :29:16. | |
organising services in a way we never would have done before. It | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
saved us for this parliament ?5. 5 billion to invest in frontline | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
services, and it has created an organisation, NHS England, capable | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
of looking beyond the cycle. But hard choices are going to have to be | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
made? You raised the question there of long-term conditions, and you | :29:37. | :29:39. | |
mentioned your own case of diabetes, you say it was a consequence of bad | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
eating and stress and other things. If people choose to eat badly, if | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
they choose to smoke, if they choose not to exercise, there is going to | :29:51. | :29:53. | |
come a point, isn't there, when people are going to say it is not | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
the tax-payers' responsibility, you have personal freedom but you must | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
live with the consequences? There are millions of people who want to | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
change and do something about it. We as an NHS need to help and support | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
them. You presumably didn't realise what the consequences of your | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
lifestyle were? I did realise the consequences of diabetes, but like | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
plane people there were a whole set of reasons why I decided I would | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
carry on the way I did. What I learned through patient education, | :30:24. | :30:26. | |
through the technology available, to the support of GPs, that it is | :30:27. | :30:29. | |
possible to change your lifestyle and that is what I have done. It is | :30:30. | :30:36. | |
too late? It is not too late for me. I can already, in the year that I | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
have been diagnosed I have stablised by blood sugar. Most of my signs now | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
are in the right place and so I can continue to work on it, and I won't | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
develop those complication described in the film. Was that stress linked | :30:50. | :30:55. | |
to the Mid Staffordshire problems? Clearly the issues around Mid | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
Staffordshire were traumatic for the NHS as a whole. And still are. And | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
you? Of course, I was chief executive of the NHS from 2006, I | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
worked in the West Midlands for a while. I saw some of the | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
consequences of that up front. It is what will be written on your | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
tombstone, of course, isn't it? In the circumstances we find ourselves | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
in, I think people make their own judgments about people's | :31:25. | :31:26. | |
contributions, but if you think about what the NHS has delivered | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
over the last seven or eight years it is absolutely remarkable the | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
improvements in access, the attack on healthcare associated infection, | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
you know, tens of thousands of lives that we have saved through cancer | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
and coronary heart disease. Undoubted lie there are issues -- | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
undoubtedly there are issues, and we need to learn from them. One of the | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
great thing about the Francis Report is it gives us the opportunity to | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
learn. One of the things I learned is that openness and transparency | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
and not being defensive, all of those things, being open to people | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
who want to raise issueses is a really important part of renewing | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
the NHS. And you obviously thought about resigning at one point? | :32:13. | :32:19. | |
Clearly. When I... Do you think it would have been better if you had? | :32:20. | :32:22. | |
When I think about it, there were two reasons I decided not to resign. | :32:23. | :32:29. | |
The first one was I started on the road of trying to improve the | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
quality of care, making quality much more the organising principle of the | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
NHS and I want to see that through. When the Francis Report came out we | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
were right in the middle of the biggest set of reforms the NHS had | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
ever seen. I said at the time there were so large you could see them | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
from space. I thought it would be irresponsible to walk away at that | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
particular time. You have been in the NHS how many years? 36 years. 36 | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
years in the NHS, if you come back in 36 years time, or anyone looks at | :33:01. | :33:06. | |
the NHS in 36 years time. Will it be an organisation we can recognise | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
from today's template? I think the basic principle of being universally | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
available free he it point of use will be the way we will see it. It | :33:16. | :33:21. | |
is the way of the future, with genetics and the knowledge we will | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
have about risk factors for the future. Having a system which shares | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
risk across a whole population is much more likely to be successful | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
than one based on private health insurance. Thank you very much | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
ir-David. -- Sir David. Aberdonians were | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
treated to not one but two cabinet meetings in their area. What joy | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
joy! In their public appearances the Prime Minister argued that the oil | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
industry was better governed by a big country rather than a small one | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
and the Scottish First Minister said the opposite. It reflects their | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
claims on Scottish independence. David Cameron's visit to the land of | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
some of his ancestors was a publicity stunt. Emily Maitlis | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
watched it. # On the road again | :34:08. | :34:15. | |
# Just can't get to get on the road again | :34:16. | :34:17. | |
I'm in the car park and the First Minister hasn't arrived. | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
They blamed the traffic for the embarrassingly late arrival of | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
Scotland's First Minister for his interview. Who can say they weren't | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
right, the Aberdeen traffic can be terrible on any day of the week and | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
today was no ordinary day. Rush hour happens on the road and out at sea, | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
the pilot ships earlier this morning were ferrying supplies to the oil | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
rig, oblivious to the efforts politicians of all persuasions were | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
putting into deciding their industry's future back on dry line. | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
This morning Aberdeen is bracing itself for not one cabinet meeting | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
but two. Lucky old it! This truly unremarkable spot marks the halfway | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
point of a curious convergence, three miles to my left Alex | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
Salmond's cabinet meeting, three miles to my right David Cameron's | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
cabinet is meeting. The two will never meet though one road joins the | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
two. You might call it coincidence were it not for the publication | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
today of an independent report into future of oil and gas in Scotland. A | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
future each side claim will be rowsier with them. Alex Salmond has | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
claimed North Sea oil could be worth ?300,000 a person if Scotland were | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
independent. It accuses the Westminster Government of bluff, | :35:34. | :35:36. | |
bluster and bullying in coming here and telling the Scots what to think. | :35:37. | :35:39. | |
There is a difference between delivering message on high or | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
sending his Chancellor or Foreign Secretary up to Scotland to tell us | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
what to do. There is a difference between jetting into Scotland and | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
jetting out than having a real democratic debate about the future | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
of the country. But Westminster says that's too optimistic and an | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
undeterred David Cameron began his day aboard an oil rig, supporting | :35:59. | :36:06. | |
the British Government's commitment to extraction of oil. We have got | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
behind this industry and will continue to stay behind this | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
industry to get the maximum benefit out of it. The maximum benefit for | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
all the UK, including Scotland. So we went off in search of more broad | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
shoulders and found them on Danny Alexander, possibly the only member | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
of the cabinet to have come south from his constituency in Inverness. | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
He was visiting Trans Ocean, it trains people all over the world who | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
what to expect deep below the sea. Your cabinet has been accused of | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
bluff, bluster and bullying, of flying in here on "Scare Force One". | :36:45. | :36:54. | |
If you go west you can hear from the master of bluff, Mr Salihamidzic. | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
David Cameron has put himself centre stage in the debate, it delights | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
Alex Salmond. Could he be doing more harm than good? Isn't the problem | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
that David Cameron is a southern softie and Englishman and an | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
Eatonian and not helping your cause at all? He may be all of those | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
things, the most important thing is he doesn't have a vote. He's not | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
someone who will cast a vote on the 18th of December, for independence. | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
Is he better out of this argument? As Prime Minister of the UK he's the | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
right to have a view and set it out to people. Then it was time to leave | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
the politicians and the simulators and head down to the beach. This is | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
Sunset Boulevard, OK in Aberdeen. And even here I seem to see warnings | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
of the political log-jam that has opened up over this city. Alex | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
Salmond is a formidable politician, even his enemies recognise his | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
force, but a pattern has been emerging over recent weeks from the | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
London end, a change in tempo and willingness to play the game. It is | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
supposed to put Westminster back into the driving seat over the | :38:04. | :38:11. | |
referendum debate. You can't help thinking that they are having fun | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
with this with Alex Salmond, with the currency ruled out and the | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
difficulty of joining a euro that brought a smile to their face probe | :38:21. | :38:23. | |
Blairex and now the whole future of oil and gas they are suggesting | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
could be under threat in an independent Scotland that went off | :38:28. | :38:36. | |
on its own. The interesting thing will be to see how Scotland's First | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
Minister reacts, he has hit back at the no-currency union and saying | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
Scotland can go it along, calling it sterlingisation. Westminster has | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
started to call him "the man without a plan", but underestimate him at | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
your peril. Alex Salmond is never without a plan for very long. John | :38:56. | :39:04. | |
Cleese once wondered if God didn't want us to eat animals then why did | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
he make them out of meat? Very funny say vegetarians who consider meat | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
akin to murder. Now a number of sensitive souls in the market town | :39:14. | :39:19. | |
of Sudbury, on the borders of Essex, have apparently forced a butcher to | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
take down displays that remind them precisely what meat is. They are not | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
necessarily vegetarians but they provide an indication of how very | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
far, even people in mainly rural areas are from what were once | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
organic businesses of every day life. We report, I should warn you, | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
if you are a fan of Bambi you better look away now. Some wherein a quiet | :39:39. | :39:48. | |
market town in Suffolk what to some people is a scene of horror. JBS | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
Butchers has been selling game here for years, from entire carcasses of | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
venison, to partridges, to furry rabbits shot in the local fields. It | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
is this fancy window display that seriously roughlies feathers. It | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
takes the staff here an hour to create this every morning, just not | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
this morning. A fiery local campaign has forced the dead animals out of | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
the shop window and into the fridge in the back room. "I too have been | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
disgusted at the multiple display of multi lated carcasses" wrote one man | :40:25. | :40:32. | |
to the local paper. The assistant manager says he has been fielding | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
calls of support from across Europe. We had a phone call from a couple | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
who live in France and they read it on their website and they were fully | :40:41. | :40:56. | |
behind us. So that was night. We had a gentleman in Lancashire ring us | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
asking us to send a hare to him. It is a bit of an eye-opener, tiring | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
but nice. These are wild rabbits? Yeah. These were all running around | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
in one of your fields somewhere. Like Watership Down? That is what I | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
should put on it! There are plenty in the trade who say this is not a | :41:20. | :41:26. | |
one-off, and in today's world he of shrink-wrapped ready meals we have | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
gone soft. At the local pub our rabbits are skinned, diced and | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
fried, the owner said every chef on his books used to be able to do | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
this, now it is a specialist skill. A lot of customers will want you to | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
take any semblance of the meat having ever been alive away from it | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
before it goes on to their plate. For you is that something that has | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
changed over time, have we become more squeamish as a nation? | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
Absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt. We don't have to know where | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
anything comes from. It is just there for us in the supermarket. | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
Excuse me, have you got a second? From the BBC, we want someone to try | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
our rabbit. After an hour this afternoon though, we couldn't find a | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
single person who would speak out against the butchers. It is part of | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
life. They have to learn that is where rabbit stew comes from, | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
rabbit, Peter Rabbit, who gets shot if he eats mummy's cabbages in the | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
garden. Yeah. I don't have a problem, it is important people know | :42:29. | :42:31. | |
where the food comes from, rather than thinking it appears vacuum | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
packed in supermarkets. It might not be to everyone's taste, but in this | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
market square the idea of knowing and seeing exactly what you eat | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
isn't putting anyone off. I would eat that every day. Superb. Now to | :42:46. | :42:52. | |
discuss this rapidly vanishing story I'm joined by the Sunday Telegraph | :42:53. | :42:59. | |
food critic Zoe Williams and Jay Rayner, who has written a book all | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
about food security. What will we make of what was the initial premise | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
of going there the butchers who had to remove their display? I'm | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
surprised that men making their living wielding sharp knives put up | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
with it. I'm surprised they took them down. Meat comes from animal, | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
I'm looking at this and thinking pork scratchings, that is the kind | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
of chap I am. We need to know meat comes from animals and that is it. | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
What do you make of it? By sheer coincidence I interviewed these guys | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
a few months ago they are in Tim Yeo's constituency, and I asked them | :43:36. | :43:38. | |
what they think, and they were only interested in rabbit. They said | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
there was a weird divide, you get people from Molford buying game that | :43:43. | :43:50. | |
cost a lot of money, and people from Sudbury buying anything to chuck in | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
a soup, they never see or refer to each other. There is a complete | :43:55. | :43:57. | |
class divide in the butcher. And that is what's going on. If most of | :43:58. | :44:03. | |
the animal is to be eaten, hasn't that always been the case? Sure, but | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
what you find is there is an offence taken which is just then privilege. | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
The act of taking offence gives you a stronger voice than the act of not | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
taking offence. If you are not taking offence you are not saying | :44:20. | :44:21. | |
anything at all. There is an argument that we have sanatised meat | :44:22. | :44:28. | |
because we buy it in supermarkets under cellophane. There is a lot to | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
be said for buying your meat from local butchers, particularly if they | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
show you the whole animal first and you can point to it and say you want | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
that pig cheek. I think there is so much class cross-current going on. | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
We talk about going to the proper butcher and supporting your local | :44:45. | :44:46. | |
shop, you are really talking about people with money and time. The | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
reason meat has been sanatised, you know life has been. If you had this | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
in a supermarket, it feels funny doesn't it? It really smells! It is | :44:56. | :45:05. | |
the. The rabbits smell! It had a long journey from Suffolk. If you | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
had it in a supermarket it wouldn't sell. Where as a packet of sasauges | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
that could be the same stuff but different shape would sell? What you | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
are talking about then is expertise and time. I wouldn't have time to | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
turn that into a sausage. I don't know about you. If people who have a | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
relatively you know, if people who do cook from scratch wouldn't have | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
time, nobody would. That is not the point about the story, the issue is | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
people not seeing animals as animals. So it is going to take very | :45:36. | :45:42. | |
skilled butchers to turn it into pig cheeks and crispy pigs ears, which | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
are lovely. The point is looking your dinner in the face. I went to | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
work in an abattoir to see what it is about and see the animals killed. | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
I felt as a meat eater it was what we have to do. We have to face up to | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
the realities. It is an ugly business. The thing about | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
squeamishness, there is a purpose, if you look at it and it makes you | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
feel circumstance you are identifying with the pig. There is a | :46:06. | :46:08. | |
human purpose and beauty in thinking yourself in the position of the dead | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
animal. Did you feel sick in the abattoir? No I didn't. I'm not a | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
sentimental man. But I suppose I knew what to expect. It was | :46:19. | :46:21. | |
startling, particularly when a pig is not the same as a sheep or the | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
same as a beef animal. Species changes everything, scale changes | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
everything. Not in taste either. I know that bit, that is why I have a | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
job. It was quite striking, and it is startling when they are removing | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
them and putting them on spikes and that, I'm not sure everybody could | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
do it. I think people need to engage in the process. If they can't engage | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
in that, and on this I have a lot in common with the vegan movement. If | :46:50. | :46:52. | |
you can't accept what it is you are doing you have to think about why | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
you are doing it, whether you are prepared to eat it? That is fair | :46:56. | :46:58. | |
enough. The whole process of eating meat, if you were actually to be | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
confronted with the reality of it, that you are breeding things for | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
your own pleasure, which you then cause enormous Payne, you can't | :47:06. | :47:08. | |
confront the truth of it. Everybody looks away at some level. I don't | :47:09. | :47:15. | |
know if it is about pleasure than need? Of course it is not, come off | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
it. What would you not eat? There is nothing I won't eat. Nothing? To be | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
honest I'm not fan of rabbit, only because I don't like the taste of | :47:25. | :47:27. | |
it. You would eat anything else? I wouldn't eat a dog! That's the | :47:28. | :47:34. | |
thing. Zoe has a line in the sand. It is the same thing we are subject | :47:35. | :47:41. | |
to cultural issues. Would you eat a dog? No because I live in Britain | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
and it doesn't culturally eat dogs. Would you eat any kind of carnivore? | :47:46. | :47:53. | |
A pig is a carnivore and eat lots of them, it is your cultural | :47:54. | :47:56. | |
relationship with lots of animals. Would you eat a horse? I have, not a | :47:57. | :48:03. | |
whole one. That is disappointing? It is a bit. You probably have this | :48:04. | :48:13. | |
week, have you had a burger? Yes! Sorry! Where is this going? Same | :48:14. | :48:20. | |
place the story in Sudbury. There are interesting arguments about how | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
we get our meat and how we engage with that process and our | :48:24. | :48:26. | |
willingness to go to the high street butcher even if you are short on | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
time. Thank you both very much. That as all tonight, they say all | :48:33. | :48:35. | |
political careers end in fail arcs some start that way too. Footage | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
unearthed from the BBC archives shows the House of Commons speaker, | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
John Bercow, in 1975, competing less than successfully in the BBC | :48:45. | :48:49. | |
children's programme, Crackerjack. Crackerjack. Crackerjack! Let's meet | :48:50. | :48:56. | |
the lads, they have broomstick handles, they have to get the rings | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
on to the handle, as many as possible at one time and put them on | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
the posts at the end here. Let's meet the lads, John, Philip, | :49:05. | :49:10. | |
Nicholas and Kishok. Not using your hands wry to get as many on as | :49:11. | :49:16. | |
possible. Look at this. You must work in a curtain shop. Your prize | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
is a Crackerjack Tuesday promises to be a day of | :49:21. | :49:41. | |
sunshine and showers across the British Isles, breezy throughout, as | :49:42. | :49:44. | |
a rough rule of thumb, the | :49:45. | :49:45. |