24/02/2014 Newsnight


24/02/2014

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 24/02/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

she's the victim of a politically motivate the smear campaign. It is

:00:18.:00:23.

not the case that my work, when I was at NCCL was influenced or

:00:24.:00:32.

colluding or apologising for paedophilia, it is an unfair

:00:33.:00:38.

inference and a smear. And this: A year I was diagnosed with diabetes,

:00:39.:00:43.

linked to poor diet and being overweight. He's the head of the

:00:44.:00:48.

NHS, what hope is there for the rest of us. David Nicolson is here to

:00:49.:00:52.

talk to us about whether the service can cope with an explosion of

:00:53.:00:55.

long-term conditions. What is wrong with a butcher advertising where

:00:56.:01:00.

meat comes from? This foot critic quite likes it. -- this food critic

:01:01.:01:09.

quite likes it. The accusations are explosive that

:01:10.:01:17.

in the 1970s and 1980s senior Labour Party figures were involved with an

:01:18.:01:20.

organisation that supported paedophilia. The Daily Mail's

:01:21.:01:25.

campaign has been noisy and aggressive, and until tonight

:01:26.:01:28.

unanswered. The question is, how could the deputy leader of the

:01:29.:01:32.

Labour Party, her husband and another senior Labour Party official

:01:33.:01:37.

have any dealings with an organisation involved in the sexual

:01:38.:01:40.

exploitation of children. How did the pressure OK group they worked

:01:41.:01:44.

with at the time ally with a campaign to reduce the age of

:01:45.:01:52.

consent to ten. Over recent days the Daily Mail has splashed its front

:01:53.:01:56.

pages with allegations about the Labour Deputy Leader, her husband,

:01:57.:02:00.

and the former Labour Health Secretary, Patricia Hewitt. All

:02:01.:02:06.

three worked for the National Council for Civil Liberties in the

:02:07.:02:12.

1970s and 1980s. The human council now known as Liberty, was closely

:02:13.:02:18.

linked to the peeped yale Information Exchange -- paedophiles

:02:19.:02:24.

Information Exchange. It is argued it tried to lower the age of consent

:02:25.:02:33.

to ten. Mrs Harman was a leader there in 1978. Her name appears on

:02:34.:02:40.

papers to the Home Office, that pictures of naked children should

:02:41.:02:47.

not be disproved only if it was proved that the children had been

:02:48.:02:52.

harmed. Harriet Harman is a person of huge dignity and integrity, I

:02:53.:03:00.

have known her for 20 years, I don't listen to these allegations, I know

:03:01.:03:04.

she is on the right side of all these issues, that is clear. After

:03:05.:03:07.

days of demands from the Daily Mail and other newspapers for Hewitt,

:03:08.:03:15.

Dromy and Harman to provide answers, the Labour Deputy Leader has decided

:03:16.:03:20.

to break her silence. We spoke exclusively to Harriet Harman

:03:21.:03:22.

earlier this evening. Harriet Harman, are you speaking out now

:03:23.:03:26.

because the Daily Mail has made it impossible for you to keep quiet?

:03:27.:03:30.

Yes, that is the case. I mean they have made these allegations before

:03:31.:03:34.

and they are so outlandish and so far from the truth that in the past

:03:35.:03:39.

I have thought, don't dignify them with a response. People won't

:03:40.:03:45.

believe them, they will just go away. I thought the same this time.

:03:46.:03:49.

They have put it on their front page three times, they are whipping up

:03:50.:03:54.

such an ugly insinuation that I felt it was really important to respond

:03:55.:03:58.

to them. But you were the legal officer for several years at the

:03:59.:04:02.

national Aum for civil liberties, which was affiliated to the

:04:03.:04:07.

Paedophile Information Exchange, were you aware of the affiliation?

:04:08.:04:10.

It was an organisation that had something like 6,000 members and

:04:11.:04:18.

1,000 affiliates, and anybody could join by paying a fee. When I was

:04:19.:04:24.

there as legal officer there was nothing, far from it, that I put

:04:25.:04:27.

forward that supported sexual abuse of children. But why was it

:04:28.:04:32.

acceptable, even to have an affiliation, they didn't try to hide

:04:33.:04:36.

what they were, the heightle of the group was The Paedophile Information

:04:37.:04:40.

Exchange, why was it OK for them to have any link with the group you

:04:41.:04:45.

worked with? NCCL was an organisation where any organisation

:04:46.:04:48.

could pay their affiliation and join it. And that's the way it was. It

:04:49.:04:54.

didn't have an expulsions policy. Any individual who wanted to pay

:04:55.:04:59.

their money to join NCCL could, and any organisation could join and

:05:00.:05:04.

affiliate to it. And affiliation is an official link, and when you were

:05:05.:05:10.

the legal officer at the National Council for Civil Liberties, did you

:05:11.:05:13.

do anything to suggest that link should be broken, did you do

:05:14.:05:16.

anything to try to push them away from your organisation? They had

:05:17.:05:20.

already been pushed away. They will still members until 1983? They had

:05:21.:05:27.

been pushed away in 1976, the policy was set by the broad membership of

:05:28.:05:32.

NCCL at their annual general meetings. In terms of that

:05:33.:05:35.

affiliation, did you have anxiety about that at the time? Well the

:05:36.:05:40.

anxiety and controversy had happened before I was there. But did you not

:05:41.:05:44.

have anxiety about the continuing affiliation while you were there,

:05:45.:05:47.

you were there for four years, you were there with one of your close

:05:48.:05:50.

friends and husband. Did you none of you discuss anxieties about having

:05:51.:05:56.

them as a group linked, however distantly to the work that you were

:05:57.:06:00.

trying to do? But they were not linked to the work that we were

:06:01.:06:04.

doing. You see at the time when you were the legal officer there, you

:06:05.:06:07.

wrote in a briefing paper to MPs, and we have it here, prosecutions in

:06:08.:06:12.

relation to child protection and photography should only proceed if

:06:13.:06:15.

you can prove that children were actually harmed, now making that

:06:16.:06:19.

argument while the National Council was linked to the Paedophile

:06:20.:06:26.

Information Exchange, can you see why people might raise an eyebrow

:06:27.:06:31.

about that argument being made while there was an official link to an

:06:32.:06:35.

overt group of paedophiles. If you look at the briefing paper it

:06:36.:06:39.

welcomes the Protection of Children Bill, which for the first time would

:06:40.:06:44.

introduce a criminal law that said photography of children which would

:06:45.:06:48.

be used for pornography, which was sexually Ayew Bewsive of -- sexually

:06:49.:06:53.

abusive of children was for the first time be a criminal offence. We

:06:54.:06:56.

also argued that we wanted it to have clear definitions. Was the

:06:57.:07:00.

affiliation between the two groups a mistake? There wasn't an affiliation

:07:01.:07:04.

between the two groups. You are making it sound like there was a

:07:05.:07:08.

mutuality. There wasn't. Technically there was an affiliation, they paid

:07:09.:07:13.

their membership to the NCCL, they were part of the wider group, was

:07:14.:07:17.

that a mistake? They paid their money to NCCL and at the time, NCCL

:07:18.:07:22.

takes money from any organisation which was a lawful organisation and

:07:23.:07:26.

any individual. Was it a mistake to have that affiliation? I think what

:07:27.:07:31.

was right was to actually dispel them from the conference and make

:07:32.:07:37.

sure that their views were never taken forward by NCCL, that is what

:07:38.:07:42.

the big clash was. It is a very simple question, yes or no, was it a

:07:43.:07:49.

mistake to allow an overt group, publicly campaigning for paedophiles

:07:50.:07:53.

to be affiliated, which is the term they used, to the National Council

:07:54.:07:59.

for Civil Liberties, when you were legal officer? On the basis that it

:08:00.:08:04.

has created some how a sense that NCCL's work was therefore tainted by

:08:05.:08:10.

them, yes, obviously, that is a very unfortunate inference to have. But

:08:11.:08:15.

it is not the case that my work when I was at NCCL was influenced by PI,

:08:16.:08:27.

or was colluding or involved in paedophilia and it is a smear. Why

:08:28.:08:32.

won't you say whether or not it was a mistake, to have affiliation, you

:08:33.:08:35.

could have sent back the membership fees or thrown them out? It was not

:08:36.:08:38.

the sort of organisation which actually people applied to. And were

:08:39.:08:43.

then vetted, you know, are you able to give your donation? More than

:08:44.:08:50.

1,000 organisations, you know had all sorts of different things. This

:08:51.:08:53.

was a group you were well aware with, why won't you with the benefit

:08:54.:08:57.

of decades of hindsight just say yes it was a mistake for there to be any

:08:58.:09:03.

affiliation? They were challenged and pushed aside from their views

:09:04.:09:08.

having influence. Your implication is that some how by giving money

:09:09.:09:14.

NCCL was influenced, it wasn't. I don't know what they gave, ?10 a

:09:15.:09:19.

year, I don't know. But the policy was set by NCCL Annual General

:09:20.:09:25.

Meeting. You were happy your employer for four years took

:09:26.:09:29.

membership money from a group that was overtly campaigning for the

:09:30.:09:32.

rights of paedophiles, that wasn't a mistake, that is what you were

:09:33.:09:36.

saying? I was content with the fact in the knowledge that nothing that I

:09:37.:09:42.

did supported paedophilia in any way, shape or form. But you are

:09:43.:09:46.

happy for the National Council of civil liberties to have taken money

:09:47.:09:50.

from a paedophile group. I wasn't happy that the group existed. They

:09:51.:09:54.

shouldn't have existed. They were obviously you know a front for very

:09:55.:10:00.

bad people who I think many of them were then prosecuted. Is this the

:10:01.:10:04.

beginning of another big battle between the Labour Party and the

:10:05.:10:07.

Daily Mail, your party leader already has had a huge battle with

:10:08.:10:13.

them? This is not battle I'm seeking, this is the Daily Mail

:10:14.:10:18.

aggressively trying to completely reshape the facts of a situation 30

:10:19.:10:23.

years ago. It is ironic that they are accusing me of supporting

:10:24.:10:27.

indecency in relation to children, when they themselves are not above

:10:28.:10:33.

producing photographs of very young girls, titivating photographs in

:10:34.:10:41.

bikinis, I stand by what I was doing at NCCL, and I stand by what I have

:10:42.:10:45.

done all the way through. Are you accusing the Daily Mail of printing

:10:46.:10:48.

indecent images, it sounds very much like you are making that accusation?

:10:49.:10:53.

If there is anybody who has over the years supported indecency, it is

:10:54.:10:57.

much more the Daily Mail than it is me. That is the frank truth of it.

:10:58.:11:03.

Laura joins us now, has this explanation made things better or

:11:04.:11:07.

worse? Well, I think it is certainly not made the problem go away, not

:11:08.:11:11.

least because as you heard time and again we asked Harriet Harman

:11:12.:11:15.

whether it was a mistake to have this affiliation, however close or

:11:16.:11:19.

distant with the Paedophile Information Exchange, she refused to

:11:20.:11:22.

say it. Those people who have been following this story closely, not

:11:23.:11:24.

least the Daily Mail, frankly, will be really wound up by that. At the

:11:25.:11:29.

end of the interslew she hit back -- interview, she hit back at the

:11:30.:11:33.

newspaper accusing them of printing the things that they themselves

:11:34.:11:36.

might consider indecent. That will be frankly like a red rag to a bull.

:11:37.:11:44.

You have the front page? Still the Daily Mail have "still they won't

:11:45.:11:51.

say sorry". Given the vociferousness of the campaigned why the it might

:11:52.:11:55.

be wrapped up is not likely. What sort of state was she in? She had

:11:56.:11:59.

clearly thought about how she was going to present her case. You see

:12:00.:12:02.

they have gone back over the evidence, the document, some of them

:12:03.:12:06.

the Mail has published. She's clearly very familiar with them, but

:12:07.:12:09.

the Daily Mail has told us tonight as far as they are concerned today's

:12:10.:12:15.

statements from Miss Harman they have described it have been full of

:12:16.:12:20.

peasantry and obfuscation, they say it is the paper's job to ask

:12:21.:12:24.

controversial questions. There is a sense of exasperation, some of the

:12:25.:12:27.

allegations have been made before. Miss Harman has never spoken out

:12:28.:12:32.

publicly like this, in a sense she's at the end of her tether. I don't

:12:33.:12:37.

think this is the end of the row. The new Government in Ukraine is,

:12:38.:12:40.

according to the Russian Foreign Ministry, nothing more than an armed

:12:41.:12:47.

mutiny, hell hath no fury than a superpower scorned, and Moscow is

:12:48.:12:50.

warning of the dangers it sees to the many ethnic Russians living in

:12:51.:12:54.

the Ukraine. It is the sort of language used to justify military

:12:55.:12:59.

intervention in other parts of the Soviet Union. Russia was using words

:13:00.:13:04.

like "terrorist" and "dictator" to describe the new Government in

:13:05.:13:07.

Ukraine. Our reporter Gabriel Gatehouse is still in Kiev and sent

:13:08.:13:12.

this dispatch. The streets still wear the scars of

:13:13.:13:18.

last week's violence. Many are still trying to digest the sheer enormity

:13:19.:13:22.

of it. But the new authorities are now trying to understand exactly

:13:23.:13:26.

what happened, who the shooters were, and who gave the orders? On

:13:27.:13:42.

Thursday morning, this street turned into a deadly firing range. Some of

:13:43.:13:49.

the shooting was coming from the protestors, who had suddenly charged

:13:50.:13:54.

on police lines. But most of the gunfire came from the police

:13:55.:13:57.

themselves. And they were using snipers. So these originated from

:13:58.:14:04.

the top of the bank and then the second high advantage point was

:14:05.:14:09.

here? The round one, yeah. In Kiev today British forensic experts were

:14:10.:14:16.

collecting evidence. And this was high velocity round. Would that mean

:14:17.:14:21.

a sniper rifle or an AK? I think this is sniper because the position

:14:22.:14:26.

over there, near the metal lampost, the bullet holes are very, very

:14:27.:14:31.

close together. They asked us to conceal their identities, their

:14:32.:14:36.

work, they said, was politically sensitive. There is one particular

:14:37.:14:40.

clean shot up here which lines up with the balcony over here. Using

:14:41.:14:44.

the bullet scars as their guide, they are trying to work out exactly

:14:45.:14:49.

where the snipers' were positioned. If you look through here and you

:14:50.:14:55.

just see a direct line of sight with the balcony of the bank building

:14:56.:14:59.

over there. That is amazing how you can work that all out. It was a

:15:00.:15:09.

bloodbath really, wasn't it. Today the new Ukrainian Interior Minister

:15:10.:15:13.

issued a warrant for arrest of Viktor Yanukovych, the former

:15:14.:15:16.

President, on charges of mass murder. Whatever the British

:15:17.:15:22.

investigators find here could be used in a future prosecution. We are

:15:23.:15:29.

looking at the sniper positions and who would be responsible for the

:15:30.:15:32.

deaths of the people in that area. The investigators say there were at

:15:33.:15:36.

least four sniper position, one at ground level, here at this

:15:37.:15:40.

barricade. And then another three in the tall buildings behind it over

:15:41.:15:44.

there. And the snipers were shooting directly down this road, in the

:15:45.:15:49.

direction of the hotel where they were staying and the square beyond.

:15:50.:15:57.

In the past 24 hours new footage has emerged showing police marksmen at

:15:58.:16:06.

that barricade on Thursday. Most are armed with Kalashnikov Assault

:16:07.:16:15.

Rifles. But some are clearly carrying sniper rifles. A Ukrainian

:16:16.:16:21.

MP today said he had uncovered documents that proved that the

:16:22.:16:24.

security operation that ended in so many deaths last week had been

:16:25.:16:27.

authorised at the very highest levels. TRANSLATION: There are

:16:28.:16:36.

documents with details of the whole security operation, I have made some

:16:37.:16:39.

of these papers public today. They contain the exact names and

:16:40.:16:42.

locations of the snipers and the names of those in charge. Kiev is

:16:43.:16:49.

now a city where law and order rests in the hands of loosely organised

:16:50.:16:54.

vigilante groups, calling themselves Self- Defence of Midan, they do more

:16:55.:16:59.

than man barricades, they guard Government buildings saying they

:17:00.:17:02.

want to ensure an orderly handover of the state. We are closely

:17:03.:17:06.

co-operating with the state guards. For instance in the presidential

:17:07.:17:11.

administration it is state guards who control the building from

:17:12.:17:15.

inside. We are controlling the whole perameter, nobody is capable of

:17:16.:17:18.

entering the building without our permission. If you control the

:17:19.:17:26.

buildings, who controls you? I think it is a good question. No-one? There

:17:27.:17:35.

is a Council of People who are with us. That's one thing. Who are those

:17:36.:17:41.

people? Those people are heads of units. At night these heads of units

:17:42.:17:50.

roam the streets of the city, groups of menacing-looking men with body

:17:51.:17:55.

armour brandishing clubs. Last night we saw a man being dragged off by

:17:56.:17:58.

one of these groups, destination unknown. The police have virtually

:17:59.:18:04.

disappeared. The hunt is now on for Viktor Yanukovych. At his oppulent

:18:05.:18:07.

compound on the edge of Kiev, the only sign of him was on his

:18:08.:18:13.

personalised liquor bottles. Ordinary Ukrainians flock there in

:18:14.:18:17.

their thousands, an eye-popping weekend outing. This was his

:18:18.:18:21.

floating bang the questioning hall. There was also a zoo, complete with

:18:22.:18:26.

Ostrich and other possibly edible birds. The duck house, that ultimate

:18:27.:18:31.

symbol of corruption, was much in evidence. Where does the money come

:18:32.:18:36.

from? Of course from our money, from our taxes. And my relatives and

:18:37.:18:43.

friends said that they like to joke th every teacher who wants such a

:18:44.:18:49.

building in Ukraine. They say it is one of the world's wonders.

:18:50.:18:51.

TRANSLATION: Ukraine's leaders face an

:18:52.:19:02.

argumentative electorate. Politicians are called to explain

:19:03.:19:05.

themselves directly to the people. It is a very difficult task but I'm

:19:06.:19:10.

more than sure we want very much and we have control of the people. You

:19:11.:19:12.

don't control them? The people control us, because they move the

:19:13.:19:20.

Government away and the new Government will be bad they will

:19:21.:19:24.

move us. But much more badly, because the people died for that.

:19:25.:19:30.

This time people say they can't just go back to business as usual. We

:19:31.:19:37.

have already paid too high a price. Gabriel Gatehouse joins us now from

:19:38.:19:42.

Kiev. What's the feeling there about these noises being made. Menacing

:19:43.:19:52.

noises being made in Moscow. Ukrainians are strangers to menacing

:19:53.:19:56.

noises in Moscow, they have heard them over gas wars and other

:19:57.:20:01.

incidences, for those who fear a Russian invasion is now, they hear

:20:02.:20:11.

Mr Medeyev talking about armed mutineers and passport issuing, they

:20:12.:20:15.

are worried. For those who say it will be all right, they look at the

:20:16.:20:19.

fact that statement was made by Mr Medeyev and not Putin. Having backed

:20:20.:20:24.

from Yanukovych so heavily and Putin was heavily involved in the

:20:25.:20:28.

negotiations, that led to that abortive deal that saw Yanukovych

:20:29.:20:32.

almost save his skin by offering fresh elections by December. They

:20:33.:20:35.

have to speak out. It is a matter of pride. But I think also they will be

:20:36.:20:39.

looking at the same picture that you are seeing behind you there, Jeremy.

:20:40.:20:45.

That is an almost empty square. There is almost zero chance that

:20:46.:20:48.

Viktor Yanukovych can come back from this. So they will look forward and

:20:49.:20:53.

think how do we work with whoever it is to come. They will probably hope

:20:54.:20:58.

it will involve Eugenia Tymoshenko in some form or another. Now to

:20:59.:21:03.

National Health Service. In public opinion terms the NHS has come to

:21:04.:21:08.

occupy a status that the Church of England could only dream of even in

:21:09.:21:13.

its hey day. The chief executive of the National Health Service in

:21:14.:21:17.

England, Sir David Nicolson, is retiring next month. He leaves

:21:18.:21:20.

behind an organisation that has just been through yet another

:21:21.:21:23.

reorganisation, yet that is still on track for a predicted shortage of

:21:24.:21:29.

tens of billions of pounds a year in the future. With more and more

:21:30.:21:31.

people in need of long-term treatment. We invited him to

:21:32.:21:39.

reflect. I have been the chief executive of the NHS for eight

:21:40.:21:43.

years, I think it is the best job in the world. REPORTER: Can we ask some

:21:44.:21:49.

questions? But like many jobs you can pay a price in relation to your

:21:50.:21:54.

lifestyle. A year ago I was diagnosed with diabetes, linked to a

:21:55.:22:00.

poor diet and being overweight. In the next few weeks I will stop being

:22:01.:22:04.

the chief executive of NHS England and will be just a patient. One of

:22:05.:22:08.

the 15 million people in this country who suffer from long-term

:22:09.:22:14.

conditions. The NHS has come a long way. We have cut waiting times to

:22:15.:22:20.

some of the shortest in the world, stack -- tackled the scourge of

:22:21.:22:23.

hospital infections and saved thousands of lives by improving

:22:24.:22:27.

heart and cancer services. As a direct result of that success, we

:22:28.:22:31.

now have more and more people living to an old age, which at least one

:22:32.:22:36.

long-term condition. The NHS spends a staggering ?1. Five million an

:22:37.:22:42.

hour for services on diabetes, for people like me. Is that money spent

:22:43.:22:45.

in the best possible way? No it isn't. We spend far too much of it

:22:46.:22:50.

on the complication of diabetes, the amputation, the heart failure, the

:22:51.:22:59.

strokes, We need to spend more on prevention. Andrea has diabetes and

:23:00.:23:03.

has been in and out of hospital for years. Daily living, you are rushing

:23:04.:23:07.

about, I have children, dropping them here, there and everywhere, I

:23:08.:23:13.

don't always eat when I should eat. So obviously that has an affect on

:23:14.:23:17.

my diabetes. I would like to be helped at home more so, that I don't

:23:18.:23:22.

have to come into hospital as much. If there was, I did have a community

:23:23.:23:28.

nurse, but it brokedown. So I ended up coming back to hospital. But

:23:29.:23:32.

something like that would be great for people with diabetes. It is not

:23:33.:23:39.

just Andrea who thinks this, future of the NHS must be about the shift

:23:40.:23:42.

of services, out of hospital and closer to people's homes. So in this

:23:43.:23:46.

part of Birmingham we have already been able to reduce the number of

:23:47.:23:50.

hospital beds by 300 and make sure the money we were using for that

:23:51.:23:54.

care is delivered in the community nearer to where the patients are.

:23:55.:24:00.

These ideas aren't radical. But implementing them across the NHS is.

:24:01.:24:05.

As part of this, the NHS needs to continue to embrace technology, to

:24:06.:24:09.

give patients control over their treatment. One of the ways in which

:24:10.:24:16.

I can take control of my own health and healthcare is by the use of

:24:17.:24:21.

simple technology. I can text my GP information about myself, he can

:24:22.:24:25.

analyse it and send me back useful and helpful advice. This saves me

:24:26.:24:32.

time, and takes pressure off my GP. If we want an NHS that works in the

:24:33.:24:36.

future, we need to give patients more control, we need to give

:24:37.:24:41.

communities like these more control over the NHS. We also need to have

:24:42.:24:47.

the ambition to make radical change, to make the kinds of changes that

:24:48.:24:50.

will improve services for our patients and their outcomes.

:24:51.:24:55.

Sir David Nicolson is here now. In your judgment, with your long

:24:56.:24:59.

experience coming up to retirement, do you think the NHS can continue

:25:00.:25:03.

like this, funded by taxation and free at the point of need? I think

:25:04.:25:07.

this is a really important point. If you look at my colleagues across

:25:08.:25:12.

Europe and the developed world, all healthcare systems are having the

:25:13.:25:16.

kind of challenges that I described in the film. And there are different

:25:17.:25:20.

ways of dealing with them. Some countries are going down the road of

:25:21.:25:25.

significantly reducing the amount, the pay for their staff. So 15-20%

:25:26.:25:30.

reductions in pay for doctors and nurse, places like Ireland. There

:25:31.:25:35.

are some other places like Greece, Portugal and Spain, who are looking

:25:36.:25:38.

at reducing the offer patients. That is not the way we want to do it at

:25:39.:25:43.

the NHS, we are completely committed to the universally free at the point

:25:44.:25:48.

of use point. It is difficult to do that. You think it can continue as

:25:49.:25:54.

it is? It absolutely can. Despite the looming ?30 billion deficit? If

:25:55.:25:59.

we tackle the issues. That is around giving patients more control, but

:26:00.:26:02.

also being radical about the way we reorganise our health service as

:26:03.:26:06.

providing much more services in the community and reducing the size of

:26:07.:26:11.

our hospitals. So fewer hospitals? They have to be reduced in size.

:26:12.:26:16.

Whether or not they are fewer. Individual hospitals reduced in

:26:17.:26:21.

size? Absolutely. But nobody likes to have their hospital shut down or

:26:22.:26:26.

reduced in size do they? That is why it is often very difficult for

:26:27.:26:29.

people to do that. That is why it is controversial. But it is absolutely

:26:30.:26:33.

vital. Doesn't it follow from that then that politicians are quite the

:26:34.:26:38.

worst people to make these sort of judgments? Well it is one of the

:26:39.:26:41.

reasons we have been through the whole range of reforms we have had.

:26:42.:26:45.

To give an organisation a responsibility for looking beyond

:26:46.:26:54.

the electoral cycle. That is NHS England. Is the Secretary of State

:26:55.:26:59.

responsible in that process? All the politicians I have worked with over

:27:00.:27:03.

the years, and no political party has a monopoly on good ideas about

:27:04.:27:09.

the NHS. Working with the current Secretary of State, when faced with

:27:10.:27:11.

a difficult decision he's prepared to take it. And take it beyond the

:27:12.:27:16.

political cycle? That I think is the issue for us going forward. There is

:27:17.:27:19.

no doubt, if you want to make change in the NHS you need to think three,

:27:20.:27:24.

five, seven years out, and the tyranny of the electoral cycle

:27:25.:27:29.

stands. And the Secretary of State is prepared to do that? To make the

:27:30.:27:32.

difficult decisions and has done on every occasion. But the system works

:27:33.:27:38.

against you. If you think about it the ical cycle goes it is 18 months

:27:39.:27:42.

before a general election, therefore we cannot make change. Then around

:27:43.:27:47.

the Hustings, politicians go around and promise things to their local

:27:48.:27:51.

populations that things will not change. And then you have a period

:27:52.:27:55.

afterwards where people say, we made these promises, we can't make change

:27:56.:27:58.

happen. Then you have a year inbetween those two things where you

:27:59.:28:01.

can make change. That is no way to run a health service. That is why, I

:28:02.:28:06.

think, we need NHS England. It is also not what happened, of course.

:28:07.:28:09.

After the last election, this coalition came in and made all sorts

:28:10.:28:13.

of changes that they hadn't talked about? Not about the delivery of

:28:14.:28:17.

healthcare. It was about the reform to the NHS system as a whole. Be

:28:18.:28:22.

honest now, after all the changes you have been through in the NHS,

:28:23.:28:25.

when this Government came in and suddenly announced a lot more

:28:26.:28:33.

changes, what did you think? My immediate response was I have been

:28:34.:28:36.

through a lot of these structural changes before. They seldom deliver

:28:37.:28:41.

what people expect and they create a lot of issues around people taking

:28:42.:28:44.

their eye off the ball. So what I had to do, and part of my

:28:45.:28:47.

responsibility is to help the Government come to a sensible set of

:28:48.:28:51.

conclusions that were implementable. Were you dismayed? I did say that it

:28:52.:28:58.

was a very large set of changes. I did think that we would spend more

:28:59.:29:01.

time than we needed to looking at ourselves rather than thinking about

:29:02.:29:05.

services and the way we need to change. It was unhelpful really? It

:29:06.:29:10.

has done a whole series I think of very helpful things. It has brought

:29:11.:29:14.

in general practitioners and clinicians into planning and

:29:15.:29:16.

organising services in a way we never would have done before. It

:29:17.:29:22.

saved us for this parliament ?5. 5 billion to invest in frontline

:29:23.:29:26.

services, and it has created an organisation, NHS England, capable

:29:27.:29:31.

of looking beyond the cycle. But hard choices are going to have to be

:29:32.:29:36.

made? You raised the question there of long-term conditions, and you

:29:37.:29:39.

mentioned your own case of diabetes, you say it was a consequence of bad

:29:40.:29:45.

eating and stress and other things. If people choose to eat badly, if

:29:46.:29:50.

they choose to smoke, if they choose not to exercise, there is going to

:29:51.:29:53.

come a point, isn't there, when people are going to say it is not

:29:54.:29:58.

the tax-payers' responsibility, you have personal freedom but you must

:29:59.:30:01.

live with the consequences? There are millions of people who want to

:30:02.:30:05.

change and do something about it. We as an NHS need to help and support

:30:06.:30:10.

them. You presumably didn't realise what the consequences of your

:30:11.:30:15.

lifestyle were? I did realise the consequences of diabetes, but like

:30:16.:30:19.

plane people there were a whole set of reasons why I decided I would

:30:20.:30:23.

carry on the way I did. What I learned through patient education,

:30:24.:30:26.

through the technology available, to the support of GPs, that it is

:30:27.:30:29.

possible to change your lifestyle and that is what I have done. It is

:30:30.:30:36.

too late? It is not too late for me. I can already, in the year that I

:30:37.:30:41.

have been diagnosed I have stablised by blood sugar. Most of my signs now

:30:42.:30:45.

are in the right place and so I can continue to work on it, and I won't

:30:46.:30:49.

develop those complication described in the film. Was that stress linked

:30:50.:30:55.

to the Mid Staffordshire problems? Clearly the issues around Mid

:30:56.:31:01.

Staffordshire were traumatic for the NHS as a whole. And still are. And

:31:02.:31:06.

you? Of course, I was chief executive of the NHS from 2006, I

:31:07.:31:11.

worked in the West Midlands for a while. I saw some of the

:31:12.:31:15.

consequences of that up front. It is what will be written on your

:31:16.:31:19.

tombstone, of course, isn't it? In the circumstances we find ourselves

:31:20.:31:24.

in, I think people make their own judgments about people's

:31:25.:31:26.

contributions, but if you think about what the NHS has delivered

:31:27.:31:31.

over the last seven or eight years it is absolutely remarkable the

:31:32.:31:37.

improvements in access, the attack on healthcare associated infection,

:31:38.:31:40.

you know, tens of thousands of lives that we have saved through cancer

:31:41.:31:46.

and coronary heart disease. Undoubted lie there are issues --

:31:47.:31:51.

undoubtedly there are issues, and we need to learn from them. One of the

:31:52.:31:56.

great thing about the Francis Report is it gives us the opportunity to

:31:57.:32:00.

learn. One of the things I learned is that openness and transparency

:32:01.:32:04.

and not being defensive, all of those things, being open to people

:32:05.:32:07.

who want to raise issueses is a really important part of renewing

:32:08.:32:12.

the NHS. And you obviously thought about resigning at one point?

:32:13.:32:19.

Clearly. When I... Do you think it would have been better if you had?

:32:20.:32:22.

When I think about it, there were two reasons I decided not to resign.

:32:23.:32:29.

The first one was I started on the road of trying to improve the

:32:30.:32:32.

quality of care, making quality much more the organising principle of the

:32:33.:32:38.

NHS and I want to see that through. When the Francis Report came out we

:32:39.:32:42.

were right in the middle of the biggest set of reforms the NHS had

:32:43.:32:47.

ever seen. I said at the time there were so large you could see them

:32:48.:32:51.

from space. I thought it would be irresponsible to walk away at that

:32:52.:32:55.

particular time. You have been in the NHS how many years? 36 years. 36

:32:56.:33:00.

years in the NHS, if you come back in 36 years time, or anyone looks at

:33:01.:33:06.

the NHS in 36 years time. Will it be an organisation we can recognise

:33:07.:33:10.

from today's template? I think the basic principle of being universally

:33:11.:33:15.

available free he it point of use will be the way we will see it. It

:33:16.:33:21.

is the way of the future, with genetics and the knowledge we will

:33:22.:33:25.

have about risk factors for the future. Having a system which shares

:33:26.:33:29.

risk across a whole population is much more likely to be successful

:33:30.:33:32.

than one based on private health insurance. Thank you very much

:33:33.:33:37.

ir-David. -- Sir David. Aberdonians were

:33:38.:33:42.

treated to not one but two cabinet meetings in their area. What joy

:33:43.:33:47.

joy! In their public appearances the Prime Minister argued that the oil

:33:48.:33:51.

industry was better governed by a big country rather than a small one

:33:52.:33:54.

and the Scottish First Minister said the opposite. It reflects their

:33:55.:33:58.

claims on Scottish independence. David Cameron's visit to the land of

:33:59.:34:02.

some of his ancestors was a publicity stunt. Emily Maitlis

:34:03.:34:07.

watched it. # On the road again

:34:08.:34:15.

# Just can't get to get on the road again

:34:16.:34:17.

I'm in the car park and the First Minister hasn't arrived.

:34:18.:34:23.

They blamed the traffic for the embarrassingly late arrival of

:34:24.:34:26.

Scotland's First Minister for his interview. Who can say they weren't

:34:27.:34:31.

right, the Aberdeen traffic can be terrible on any day of the week and

:34:32.:34:35.

today was no ordinary day. Rush hour happens on the road and out at sea,

:34:36.:34:40.

the pilot ships earlier this morning were ferrying supplies to the oil

:34:41.:34:44.

rig, oblivious to the efforts politicians of all persuasions were

:34:45.:34:47.

putting into deciding their industry's future back on dry line.

:34:48.:34:51.

This morning Aberdeen is bracing itself for not one cabinet meeting

:34:52.:34:57.

but two. Lucky old it! This truly unremarkable spot marks the halfway

:34:58.:35:02.

point of a curious convergence, three miles to my left Alex

:35:03.:35:06.

Salmond's cabinet meeting, three miles to my right David Cameron's

:35:07.:35:10.

cabinet is meeting. The two will never meet though one road joins the

:35:11.:35:14.

two. You might call it coincidence were it not for the publication

:35:15.:35:17.

today of an independent report into future of oil and gas in Scotland. A

:35:18.:35:23.

future each side claim will be rowsier with them. Alex Salmond has

:35:24.:35:29.

claimed North Sea oil could be worth ?300,000 a person if Scotland were

:35:30.:35:33.

independent. It accuses the Westminster Government of bluff,

:35:34.:35:36.

bluster and bullying in coming here and telling the Scots what to think.

:35:37.:35:39.

There is a difference between delivering message on high or

:35:40.:35:43.

sending his Chancellor or Foreign Secretary up to Scotland to tell us

:35:44.:35:47.

what to do. There is a difference between jetting into Scotland and

:35:48.:35:50.

jetting out than having a real democratic debate about the future

:35:51.:35:53.

of the country. But Westminster says that's too optimistic and an

:35:54.:35:58.

undeterred David Cameron began his day aboard an oil rig, supporting

:35:59.:36:06.

the British Government's commitment to extraction of oil. We have got

:36:07.:36:10.

behind this industry and will continue to stay behind this

:36:11.:36:13.

industry to get the maximum benefit out of it. The maximum benefit for

:36:14.:36:18.

all the UK, including Scotland. So we went off in search of more broad

:36:19.:36:23.

shoulders and found them on Danny Alexander, possibly the only member

:36:24.:36:27.

of the cabinet to have come south from his constituency in Inverness.

:36:28.:36:34.

He was visiting Trans Ocean, it trains people all over the world who

:36:35.:36:38.

what to expect deep below the sea. Your cabinet has been accused of

:36:39.:36:44.

bluff, bluster and bullying, of flying in here on "Scare Force One".

:36:45.:36:54.

If you go west you can hear from the master of bluff, Mr Salihamidzic.

:36:55.:36:58.

David Cameron has put himself centre stage in the debate, it delights

:36:59.:37:03.

Alex Salmond. Could he be doing more harm than good? Isn't the problem

:37:04.:37:08.

that David Cameron is a southern softie and Englishman and an

:37:09.:37:12.

Eatonian and not helping your cause at all? He may be all of those

:37:13.:37:17.

things, the most important thing is he doesn't have a vote. He's not

:37:18.:37:21.

someone who will cast a vote on the 18th of December, for independence.

:37:22.:37:26.

Is he better out of this argument? As Prime Minister of the UK he's the

:37:27.:37:30.

right to have a view and set it out to people. Then it was time to leave

:37:31.:37:33.

the politicians and the simulators and head down to the beach. This is

:37:34.:37:39.

Sunset Boulevard, OK in Aberdeen. And even here I seem to see warnings

:37:40.:37:44.

of the political log-jam that has opened up over this city. Alex

:37:45.:37:48.

Salmond is a formidable politician, even his enemies recognise his

:37:49.:37:53.

force, but a pattern has been emerging over recent weeks from the

:37:54.:37:58.

London end, a change in tempo and willingness to play the game. It is

:37:59.:38:03.

supposed to put Westminster back into the driving seat over the

:38:04.:38:11.

referendum debate. You can't help thinking that they are having fun

:38:12.:38:16.

with this with Alex Salmond, with the currency ruled out and the

:38:17.:38:20.

difficulty of joining a euro that brought a smile to their face probe

:38:21.:38:23.

Blairex and now the whole future of oil and gas they are suggesting

:38:24.:38:27.

could be under threat in an independent Scotland that went off

:38:28.:38:36.

on its own. The interesting thing will be to see how Scotland's First

:38:37.:38:41.

Minister reacts, he has hit back at the no-currency union and saying

:38:42.:38:47.

Scotland can go it along, calling it sterlingisation. Westminster has

:38:48.:38:51.

started to call him "the man without a plan", but underestimate him at

:38:52.:38:55.

your peril. Alex Salmond is never without a plan for very long. John

:38:56.:39:04.

Cleese once wondered if God didn't want us to eat animals then why did

:39:05.:39:09.

he make them out of meat? Very funny say vegetarians who consider meat

:39:10.:39:13.

akin to murder. Now a number of sensitive souls in the market town

:39:14.:39:19.

of Sudbury, on the borders of Essex, have apparently forced a butcher to

:39:20.:39:23.

take down displays that remind them precisely what meat is. They are not

:39:24.:39:26.

necessarily vegetarians but they provide an indication of how very

:39:27.:39:31.

far, even people in mainly rural areas are from what were once

:39:32.:39:34.

organic businesses of every day life. We report, I should warn you,

:39:35.:39:38.

if you are a fan of Bambi you better look away now. Some wherein a quiet

:39:39.:39:48.

market town in Suffolk what to some people is a scene of horror. JBS

:39:49.:39:54.

Butchers has been selling game here for years, from entire carcasses of

:39:55.:40:00.

venison, to partridges, to furry rabbits shot in the local fields. It

:40:01.:40:06.

is this fancy window display that seriously roughlies feathers. It

:40:07.:40:09.

takes the staff here an hour to create this every morning, just not

:40:10.:40:13.

this morning. A fiery local campaign has forced the dead animals out of

:40:14.:40:18.

the shop window and into the fridge in the back room. "I too have been

:40:19.:40:24.

disgusted at the multiple display of multi lated carcasses" wrote one man

:40:25.:40:32.

to the local paper. The assistant manager says he has been fielding

:40:33.:40:36.

calls of support from across Europe. We had a phone call from a couple

:40:37.:40:40.

who live in France and they read it on their website and they were fully

:40:41.:40:56.

behind us. So that was night. We had a gentleman in Lancashire ring us

:40:57.:41:02.

asking us to send a hare to him. It is a bit of an eye-opener, tiring

:41:03.:41:07.

but nice. These are wild rabbits? Yeah. These were all running around

:41:08.:41:13.

in one of your fields somewhere. Like Watership Down? That is what I

:41:14.:41:19.

should put on it! There are plenty in the trade who say this is not a

:41:20.:41:26.

one-off, and in today's world he of shrink-wrapped ready meals we have

:41:27.:41:31.

gone soft. At the local pub our rabbits are skinned, diced and

:41:32.:41:36.

fried, the owner said every chef on his books used to be able to do

:41:37.:41:40.

this, now it is a specialist skill. A lot of customers will want you to

:41:41.:41:46.

take any semblance of the meat having ever been alive away from it

:41:47.:41:50.

before it goes on to their plate. For you is that something that has

:41:51.:41:54.

changed over time, have we become more squeamish as a nation?

:41:55.:41:58.

Absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt. We don't have to know where

:41:59.:42:02.

anything comes from. It is just there for us in the supermarket.

:42:03.:42:06.

Excuse me, have you got a second? From the BBC, we want someone to try

:42:07.:42:10.

our rabbit. After an hour this afternoon though, we couldn't find a

:42:11.:42:15.

single person who would speak out against the butchers. It is part of

:42:16.:42:19.

life. They have to learn that is where rabbit stew comes from,

:42:20.:42:24.

rabbit, Peter Rabbit, who gets shot if he eats mummy's cabbages in the

:42:25.:42:28.

garden. Yeah. I don't have a problem, it is important people know

:42:29.:42:31.

where the food comes from, rather than thinking it appears vacuum

:42:32.:42:36.

packed in supermarkets. It might not be to everyone's taste, but in this

:42:37.:42:40.

market square the idea of knowing and seeing exactly what you eat

:42:41.:42:45.

isn't putting anyone off. I would eat that every day. Superb. Now to

:42:46.:42:52.

discuss this rapidly vanishing story I'm joined by the Sunday Telegraph

:42:53.:42:59.

food critic Zoe Williams and Jay Rayner, who has written a book all

:43:00.:43:03.

about food security. What will we make of what was the initial premise

:43:04.:43:07.

of going there the butchers who had to remove their display? I'm

:43:08.:43:11.

surprised that men making their living wielding sharp knives put up

:43:12.:43:15.

with it. I'm surprised they took them down. Meat comes from animal,

:43:16.:43:19.

I'm looking at this and thinking pork scratchings, that is the kind

:43:20.:43:23.

of chap I am. We need to know meat comes from animals and that is it.

:43:24.:43:29.

What do you make of it? By sheer coincidence I interviewed these guys

:43:30.:43:35.

a few months ago they are in Tim Yeo's constituency, and I asked them

:43:36.:43:38.

what they think, and they were only interested in rabbit. They said

:43:39.:43:42.

there was a weird divide, you get people from Molford buying game that

:43:43.:43:50.

cost a lot of money, and people from Sudbury buying anything to chuck in

:43:51.:43:54.

a soup, they never see or refer to each other. There is a complete

:43:55.:43:57.

class divide in the butcher. And that is what's going on. If most of

:43:58.:44:03.

the animal is to be eaten, hasn't that always been the case? Sure, but

:44:04.:44:09.

what you find is there is an offence taken which is just then privilege.

:44:10.:44:15.

The act of taking offence gives you a stronger voice than the act of not

:44:16.:44:19.

taking offence. If you are not taking offence you are not saying

:44:20.:44:21.

anything at all. There is an argument that we have sanatised meat

:44:22.:44:28.

because we buy it in supermarkets under cellophane. There is a lot to

:44:29.:44:32.

be said for buying your meat from local butchers, particularly if they

:44:33.:44:36.

show you the whole animal first and you can point to it and say you want

:44:37.:44:40.

that pig cheek. I think there is so much class cross-current going on.

:44:41.:44:44.

We talk about going to the proper butcher and supporting your local

:44:45.:44:46.

shop, you are really talking about people with money and time. The

:44:47.:44:50.

reason meat has been sanatised, you know life has been. If you had this

:44:51.:44:55.

in a supermarket, it feels funny doesn't it? It really smells! It is

:44:56.:45:05.

the. The rabbits smell! It had a long journey from Suffolk. If you

:45:06.:45:09.

had it in a supermarket it wouldn't sell. Where as a packet of sasauges

:45:10.:45:14.

that could be the same stuff but different shape would sell? What you

:45:15.:45:17.

are talking about then is expertise and time. I wouldn't have time to

:45:18.:45:22.

turn that into a sausage. I don't know about you. If people who have a

:45:23.:45:27.

relatively you know, if people who do cook from scratch wouldn't have

:45:28.:45:31.

time, nobody would. That is not the point about the story, the issue is

:45:32.:45:35.

people not seeing animals as animals. So it is going to take very

:45:36.:45:42.

skilled butchers to turn it into pig cheeks and crispy pigs ears, which

:45:43.:45:46.

are lovely. The point is looking your dinner in the face. I went to

:45:47.:45:50.

work in an abattoir to see what it is about and see the animals killed.

:45:51.:45:54.

I felt as a meat eater it was what we have to do. We have to face up to

:45:55.:45:58.

the realities. It is an ugly business. The thing about

:45:59.:46:01.

squeamishness, there is a purpose, if you look at it and it makes you

:46:02.:46:05.

feel circumstance you are identifying with the pig. There is a

:46:06.:46:08.

human purpose and beauty in thinking yourself in the position of the dead

:46:09.:46:13.

animal. Did you feel sick in the abattoir? No I didn't. I'm not a

:46:14.:46:18.

sentimental man. But I suppose I knew what to expect. It was

:46:19.:46:21.

startling, particularly when a pig is not the same as a sheep or the

:46:22.:46:26.

same as a beef animal. Species changes everything, scale changes

:46:27.:46:30.

everything. Not in taste either. I know that bit, that is why I have a

:46:31.:46:34.

job. It was quite striking, and it is startling when they are removing

:46:35.:46:39.

them and putting them on spikes and that, I'm not sure everybody could

:46:40.:46:43.

do it. I think people need to engage in the process. If they can't engage

:46:44.:46:49.

in that, and on this I have a lot in common with the vegan movement. If

:46:50.:46:52.

you can't accept what it is you are doing you have to think about why

:46:53.:46:55.

you are doing it, whether you are prepared to eat it? That is fair

:46:56.:46:58.

enough. The whole process of eating meat, if you were actually to be

:46:59.:47:02.

confronted with the reality of it, that you are breeding things for

:47:03.:47:05.

your own pleasure, which you then cause enormous Payne, you can't

:47:06.:47:08.

confront the truth of it. Everybody looks away at some level. I don't

:47:09.:47:15.

know if it is about pleasure than need? Of course it is not, come off

:47:16.:47:19.

it. What would you not eat? There is nothing I won't eat. Nothing? To be

:47:20.:47:24.

honest I'm not fan of rabbit, only because I don't like the taste of

:47:25.:47:27.

it. You would eat anything else? I wouldn't eat a dog! That's the

:47:28.:47:34.

thing. Zoe has a line in the sand. It is the same thing we are subject

:47:35.:47:41.

to cultural issues. Would you eat a dog? No because I live in Britain

:47:42.:47:45.

and it doesn't culturally eat dogs. Would you eat any kind of carnivore?

:47:46.:47:53.

A pig is a carnivore and eat lots of them, it is your cultural

:47:54.:47:56.

relationship with lots of animals. Would you eat a horse? I have, not a

:47:57.:48:03.

whole one. That is disappointing? It is a bit. You probably have this

:48:04.:48:13.

week, have you had a burger? Yes! Sorry! Where is this going? Same

:48:14.:48:20.

place the story in Sudbury. There are interesting arguments about how

:48:21.:48:23.

we get our meat and how we engage with that process and our

:48:24.:48:26.

willingness to go to the high street butcher even if you are short on

:48:27.:48:32.

time. Thank you both very much. That as all tonight, they say all

:48:33.:48:35.

political careers end in fail arcs some start that way too. Footage

:48:36.:48:40.

unearthed from the BBC archives shows the House of Commons speaker,

:48:41.:48:44.

John Bercow, in 1975, competing less than successfully in the BBC

:48:45.:48:49.

children's programme, Crackerjack. Crackerjack. Crackerjack! Let's meet

:48:50.:48:56.

the lads, they have broomstick handles, they have to get the rings

:48:57.:49:00.

on to the handle, as many as possible at one time and put them on

:49:01.:49:04.

the posts at the end here. Let's meet the lads, John, Philip,

:49:05.:49:10.

Nicholas and Kishok. Not using your hands wry to get as many on as

:49:11.:49:16.

possible. Look at this. You must work in a curtain shop. Your prize

:49:17.:49:20.

is a Crackerjack Tuesday promises to be a day of

:49:21.:49:41.

sunshine and showers across the British Isles, breezy throughout, as

:49:42.:49:44.

a rough rule of thumb, the

:49:45.:49:45.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS