30/01/2017 Newsnight


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30/01/2017

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.


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Thousands have come out in protest tonight,

:00:11.:00:19.

as the world works out how to respond to America's

:00:20.:00:22.

What I want to be clear about is that since becoming President, he's

:00:23.:00:35.

continued to take steps through executive order and otherwise to

:00:36.:00:39.

make sure this country is as safe as it can be and we're ahead of every

:00:40.:00:40.

threat. The President is kind

:00:41.:00:42.

of doing what he promised, but it's causing trouble and anger

:00:43.:00:44.

at home and abroad. We'll hear from the most

:00:45.:00:47.

senior Muslim diplomat The Government here has been

:00:48.:00:48.

expanding on its view. This is not an approach that this

:00:49.:01:04.

Government would take. But let me conclude by reminding the House of

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the vital importance of this country's alliance with the United

:01:10.:01:10.

States. We'll discuss how well it's been

:01:11.:01:12.

handled and what that says Leading the Brexit negotiations

:01:13.:01:14.

for the European Parliament. Demonstrations outside

:01:15.:01:22.

the US and inside. A judicial challenge

:01:23.:01:38.

to the Trump immigration curbs. Businesses complaining

:01:39.:01:40.

at the policy, and a fall in the dollar and the Dow

:01:41.:01:43.

at the fear it is all destabilising. And the public opposition

:01:44.:01:47.

of former President Obama. No, things didn't quieten down after

:01:48.:01:50.

the Trump Presidential inauguration. Now, no-one knows where the real

:01:51.:01:55.

balance of opinion lies. Is there a quiet majority in favour

:01:56.:01:59.

of tough immigration restrictions? What we do know is that there

:02:00.:02:03.

is noisy opposition to the specific measures adopted by Donald Trump,

:02:04.:02:06.

and it includes many Conservatives The whole idea of a Trump state

:02:07.:02:10.

visit is dividing opinion here, but let's start in the US,

:02:11.:02:16.

and go over to Yalda Hakim, We arrived at JFK airport a few

:02:17.:02:32.

hours ago and there seems to be things have really quietened down

:02:33.:02:35.

here. There weren't the scenes of chaos we saw over the weekend. What

:02:36.:02:39.

does remain is confusion. We spoke it a group of lawyers who have

:02:40.:02:43.

create aid make shift office at one of the terminals at the airport.

:02:44.:02:46.

They've told us that they're aware of at least 42 people who were

:02:47.:02:50.

detained here over the weekend. That number could be much higher. We're

:02:51.:02:56.

also hearing unverified reports that at least nine nationals from Saudi

:02:57.:03:00.

Arabia have been detained. We're not quite sure if that is actually

:03:01.:03:04.

correct. That remains unverified. We're being told by these lawyers

:03:05.:03:09.

that they're not getting any more information from the authorities.

:03:10.:03:12.

President Trump's supporters have welcomed the ban. They're saying

:03:13.:03:15.

this is exactly what he said he would do during the election

:03:16.:03:19.

campaign. His critics, which include immigration experts and security

:03:20.:03:25.

analysts, say this won't make America safer. Tonight President

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Obama has issued a statement in support of the protesters and says

:03:30.:03:33.

he's concerned about the ban. This remains a deeply divided nation.

:03:34.:03:48.

A weekend that made America think about what the country stood for.

:03:49.:03:55.

The President of a nation of immigrants taking unprecedented

:03:56.:04:02.

steps to stop refugees from entering the country to, as he says, make

:04:03.:04:08.

America safer. Today, things are quieter and there are fewer

:04:09.:04:12.

protesters around. We've just arrived at JFK. I've been quite

:04:13.:04:16.

nervous the entire flight over. I was born in Afghanistan but I travel

:04:17.:04:20.

on an Australian passport. I wasn't sure if the policy had changed

:04:21.:04:27.

mid-air between London and New York. Trump and his team remain defiant

:04:28.:04:31.

today saying that the government did a phenomenal job and that the

:04:32.:04:35.

majority agree with the President. I think this has been blown way out of

:04:36.:04:39.

proportion and exaggerated. Again, you talk in a 24-hour period,

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325,000 people from other countries flew in from our airports and we're

:04:45.:04:48.

talking about 109 people from seven countries that the Obama

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administration identified and these bureaucrats have a problem with it.

:04:54.:04:56.

They can either get with the programme or either go. Hold on.

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This is about the safety of America. Regardless of the comments from the

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White House, there is still anger about the measures. The order

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appears on the face of it to be clear - it suspends entry for

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citizens of Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Yemen for

:05:17.:05:24.

90 days. It places a ban on all refugee arrivals for 120 days. It

:05:25.:05:29.

decrees an indefinite ban for Syrian refugees and it places a cap of

:05:30.:05:34.

50,000 refugees in 2017, roughly the same as President Obama accepted at

:05:35.:05:39.

the start of his presidency. Part of the problem has been the rollout of

:05:40.:05:44.

the policy. Confusion reigned over the weekend, when passengers were

:05:45.:05:46.

detained at airports around the country. There was also confusion

:05:47.:05:53.

about the exact status of green card holders and dual citizens. Today

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Washington state launched a legal appeal against the ban and former

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President Obama made his first public statement since stepping

:06:02.:06:05.

down, saying he was heartened by protests against the policy. Despite

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the mounting pressure and criticism, President Trump is not backing down.

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He criticised the tears of Chuck Schumer and asked where the lefty

:06:17.:06:20.

outrage was from the Democrats when the jobs were fleeing the country.

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He reminded protesters that a crack down on Muslims was a big part of

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his campaign. But others are seriously concerned. You're seeing

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people talk about this idea not just on the refugee side, which is

:06:33.:06:36.

extremely serious, but also on the idea that we're giving preference to

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one religion over another. That isn't who we are as Americans. It is

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not who we stand for and unless we can retake the narrative and talk

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more positively about who we are rather than putting this optic of an

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us and them forward, we're going to have a really big problem both in

:06:58.:06:59.

the United States and around the world. The President says he will

:07:00.:07:06.

review the ban in the next few months. But that's little comfort

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for those who dreamt of a future in America.

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Zalmay Khalilzad served as US ambassador to

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He was the most senior Muslim US diplomat ever.

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Thank you very much for joining us. You were born in Afghanistan. You

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made your life in the United States. What do you think about this, these

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restrictions? We are in the age of terrorism and terrorists do use

:07:42.:07:47.

visas and immigration as a way to infiltrate, so I can understand that

:07:48.:07:55.

President Trump would like to see whether our immigration policy and

:07:56.:07:59.

refugee policies need to be tightened so that we can protect

:08:00.:08:08.

ourselves against this threat. His executive orders that started the

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debate and this temporary ban can lead, in my hope, to a debate, to an

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assessment. Then we can come to a judicious policy that balances

:08:21.:08:29.

security concerns with our values and factor what we do on our

:08:30.:08:34.

friends, on terrorists. I hope that emotional period is going to be soon

:08:35.:08:37.

over and that we can have a reasoned debate. You were tipped to serve as

:08:38.:08:45.

a potential cabinet member for a Trump office. You weren't a natural

:08:46.:08:50.

supporter for him. Do you think you could imagine still serving for a

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President who had what is, I think everyone would agree, quite a crude

:08:54.:08:56.

ban on certain countries and certain types of people? I love the United

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States. The US has been very good to me, given my personal history. I

:09:06.:09:09.

have said to the administration, as I have said to previous

:09:10.:09:12.

administrations that if I am needed, if I can help my adopted country,

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I'll be happy to do so. I'm not looking for a job at this point

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myself however. Some people, a lot of people just hate Trump and don't

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want him there. Some people were willing to give President Trump a

:09:29.:09:32.

chance and I'm detecting from you, because I would put you in that

:09:33.:09:36.

category, that it hasn't put you off him, that you basically think this

:09:37.:09:40.

is not irredeemable, this is not the worst thing any President could do,

:09:41.:09:43.

this is probably not exact lip as you would have -- exactly as you

:09:44.:09:47.

would have done it, but it may lead somewhere good in the end? That is

:09:48.:09:55.

my hope. That's my expectation. I believe it's a responsibility to

:09:56.:10:02.

help, to get to a judicious place where the various considerations

:10:03.:10:05.

that should inform the policy are brought together in a balanced way.

:10:06.:10:11.

I hope that this will happen. Do you as someone with experience in Iraq,

:10:12.:10:15.

for example, think this is going to work, it's going to make America

:10:16.:10:19.

safer? Or is it just, as many have said, it's completely irrelevant to

:10:20.:10:22.

the safety of the United States given that no terror attacks have

:10:23.:10:25.

occurred from any of the seven countries in the last X decades? If

:10:26.:10:29.

we balance the various considerations that I have

:10:30.:10:36.

suggested, it should help, because, as I said before, the terrorists are

:10:37.:10:40.

trying to infiltrate. Not only the United States, but our allies in

:10:41.:10:47.

Europe and elsewhere. And we need to have a strategy, a policy that

:10:48.:10:51.

reduces the opportunity, if not eliminates that opportunity for

:10:52.:10:54.

them. But we have other considerations as well, oftening. --

:10:55.:11:00.

of course. What was wrong with the previous policy and why did it have

:11:01.:11:05.

to be done on a Friday evening with no warning, various departments who

:11:06.:11:08.

it affects apparently didn't know about it. What is it that makes you

:11:09.:11:13.

want, if you like, to forgive this policy, given that everything you

:11:14.:11:16.

stand for and everything you're really saying suggest it's not

:11:17.:11:19.

actually a policy that's fit for purpose? Well, it's a new

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administration. It has been focussed on domestic circumstances, meeting

:11:29.:11:33.

campaign promises. There could be criticism of the process by which

:11:34.:11:39.

this decision was made and the way it was announced. It does

:11:40.:11:45.

discriminate against Muslims, it does. Basically they're all Muslim

:11:46.:11:52.

majority countries and it allows for exceptions that are minority

:11:53.:11:56.

religions in the countries specificed. He might as well have

:11:57.:11:59.

just said Muslims in those countries. Unfortunately, much of

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the terrorism that we experience in the world today comes out of Islamic

:12:04.:12:08.

majority countries, because they're going through a terrible crisis,

:12:09.:12:13.

part of the response to that crisis has been this extremism and terror.

:12:14.:12:18.

But there are more than 40 other Muslim countries that are not on the

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list. Has started a necessary debate. -- this has started a

:12:28.:12:30.

necessary debate. Maybe it should have been done differently. But I

:12:31.:12:33.

hope in the end it will come to a judicious point on what needs to be

:12:34.:12:38.

done to protect us, but also, to be attentive to other concerns that we

:12:39.:12:42.

have, including what we stand for, there cannot be a religious test for

:12:43.:12:45.

visitors and immigrants to the United States. You've steered a

:12:46.:12:49.

very, very fine balanced line in everything you've said. Thank you

:12:50.:12:52.

very much for joining us. It's great to be with you.

:12:53.:12:55.

Well, the issue is obviously a tricky one for the UK.

:12:56.:12:57.

On Friday, we were meant to be proud of our friendship

:12:58.:13:00.

By Saturday morning, it was a potential embarrassment.

:13:01.:13:03.

Most British politicians have no truck with the Trump

:13:04.:13:05.

immigration ban at all but the issue here is how far

:13:06.:13:08.

we should criticise, given that we are in the market

:13:09.:13:10.

The timing of the President's Executive Order on Friday makes it

:13:11.:13:15.

The ban came within hours of the Prime Minister sitting

:13:16.:13:19.

Here's the Shadow Foreign Secretary in the Commons today.

:13:20.:13:26.

The order was signed barely an hour or two after the Prime Minister had

:13:27.:13:32.

left the White House. Can he tell us, in their discussions about

:13:33.:13:35.

terrorism and security, was this imminent order mentioned? Because I

:13:36.:13:39.

don't know, Mr Speaker, what's worse - that the President would have such

:13:40.:13:42.

little respect for the Prime Minister that he wouldn't think of

:13:43.:13:47.

telling her or that he did and that she didn't think it sounded wrong.

:13:48.:13:50.

It would be odd if she didn't have some foreknowledge,

:13:51.:13:54.

as Reuters knew about the ban and were reporting that was poised

:13:55.:13:57.

to happen while she was sitting in the White House with the President.

:13:58.:14:00.

Well, with me is our political editor, Nick Watt.

:14:01.:14:06.

Let's talk about the state visit. We have this lovely back drop of a

:14:07.:14:13.

carriage there. Any hint of a U-turn at all. We are not in U-turn

:14:14.:14:17.

territory. Downing Street is making clear this visit will go ahead. I

:14:18.:14:21.

was speaking to one senior Tory this evening who says that this could put

:14:22.:14:24.

the Queen in an embarrassing position. The Government is saying

:14:25.:14:29.

during his 65 year reign she has met heads of state that are not angels.

:14:30.:14:33.

I am told that Number Ten is being advised it would be risky -- and

:14:34.:14:44.

that there could be protests by Opposition parties. Some are

:14:45.:14:47.

wondering whether it's wise to go ahead with the visit so soon. Trump

:14:48.:14:50.

supporters saying it will be in the first week of June. The ministers

:14:51.:14:55.

say if only we could wait until the Autumn, perhaps tempers would cool

:14:56.:14:58.

by then. The feeling in Whitehall is that Downing Street are in the

:14:59.:15:04.

driving seat for this visit. The formal procedures have been followed

:15:05.:15:07.

and the right people have been consulted, but one well placed

:15:08.:15:11.

source said to me, this was our ace card to play and we played it early

:15:12.:15:18.

How well generally has Theresa May handled this whole weekend? Theresa

:15:19.:15:26.

May was praised quite widely for performing a delicate balancing act

:15:27.:15:31.

at the White House. The following day she felt less certain when she

:15:32.:15:36.

was unable to offer an opinion on the Donald Trump presidential order

:15:37.:15:41.

on travel. This evening, on Channel 4 News, it was reported that Theresa

:15:42.:15:45.

May was alerted to elements of this executive order in the White House

:15:46.:15:50.

on Friday. Downing Street will not comment on the content of private

:15:51.:15:54.

conversations. I understand Theresa May was alerted to the fact there

:15:55.:15:59.

would be a ban on refugees but not alerted to the seven countries, and

:16:00.:16:06.

she was not told that initially it would apply to dual citizens

:16:07.:16:08.

therefore apply to some British citizens. There is a feeling in

:16:09.:16:12.

Whitehall this evening amongst ministerial circles that, if the

:16:13.:16:16.

Prime Minister has such a wonderful rapport with the president, why

:16:17.:16:21.

didn't she pick up the phone to him? Why didn't she asked ministers to do

:16:22.:16:23.

it? There have been sizeable

:16:24.:16:25.

demonstrations this You can see the pictures

:16:26.:16:26.

from London. And that petition to cancel

:16:27.:16:31.

the state visit is at about one and a half million,

:16:32.:16:36.

or it was the last time I looked. There is one going now,

:16:37.:16:39.

in favour of a state visit I am joined now by Oliver Letwin and

:16:40.:16:51.

Stella Crecy. If Donald Trump was invited to go to the house of

:16:52.:16:58.

parliament, would you go cracker -- go? I would like to speak to him

:16:59.:17:02.

face to face. There is a big difference between engaging with

:17:03.:17:09.

America and indulging him. Rolling out the red carpet, giving him the

:17:10.:17:15.

same treatment we gave people like Nelson Mandela, it would basically

:17:16.:17:19.

be a way of saying, what you did, we are fine with it. I do not think the

:17:20.:17:23.

British public is fine with it. They are horrified by the idea the Prime

:17:24.:17:27.

Minister herself knew about this, was face-to-face with the man, had

:17:28.:17:31.

an opportunity to say, are you sure this is a good idea? Look at the

:17:32.:17:38.

damage it will do. She did not say anything. Does it matter if Theresa

:17:39.:17:43.

May knew and did not think to lobby against it or mention, when she came

:17:44.:17:48.

out, or have a prepared statement? On Saturday she seemed to be taken

:17:49.:17:52.

aback when she was asked about on Saturday evening. Imagine the other

:17:53.:17:59.

way around. Suppose this was actually a question of the UK's

:18:00.:18:05.

immigration policy about which Stella might agree or disagree.

:18:06.:18:10.

Suppose we asked the question, do we think that Mr Trump, or the American

:18:11.:18:15.

public or American politicians should be deciding our policy, there

:18:16.:18:20.

would be outrage. It is the same this way around stop this and I have

:18:21.:18:24.

a new president. It might not have been a president I would

:18:25.:18:28.

particularly have voted for, had I been American. But I am not and I do

:18:29.:18:37.

not get to decide the policies. We have a relationship with America.

:18:38.:18:43.

Oliver, he is banning refugees. There are some things in life that

:18:44.:18:48.

are so wrong, you have to say, this is wrong. It does not take much

:18:49.:18:52.

thought. It is about the values you stand for. Let alone the seven

:18:53.:18:57.

countries involved and the fact it is focusing on Muslims. She should

:18:58.:19:02.

have said, Mr President, this is not the right thing to do that you do

:19:03.:19:07.

not pull punches on something as basic and principled as that. Are

:19:08.:19:12.

you an opponent of the death penalty? Yes, I am. Do think a large

:19:13.:19:17.

number of people in China are put to death every year? Yes. She was in

:19:18.:19:23.

the room with him she had an opportunity to discuss this. Putting

:19:24.:19:29.

him on a platform with Nelson Mandela. Absolutely. We have called

:19:30.:19:36.

for an ethical foreign policy. It is not just about holding their hands

:19:37.:19:41.

but holding our tongues as well. What she has done is not speak up

:19:42.:19:45.

for the values of tolerance we are so proud of in Britain. That is why

:19:46.:19:49.

there are thousands of people on the streets tonight. I disagree. I think

:19:50.:19:53.

the reason we have the relationships we have is to try to manage the

:19:54.:19:57.

world in a peaceful and stable way in the interests of our people and

:19:58.:20:04.

also the interests of people in the world. You do not get that by

:20:05.:20:07.

lecturing and hectoring other countries about what their policy

:20:08.:20:09.

should be. Do you think banning Muslims from America or make the

:20:10.:20:15.

world more safe? The only people promoting this policy is Isis. We

:20:16.:20:21.

have just heard a Muslim ambassador explaining that he hoped at the end

:20:22.:20:26.

of this temporary ban there would be a better policy. I do not know if

:20:27.:20:31.

there will be or not. It is not my business and it is not your

:20:32.:20:37.

business. This is very interesting. If it is about a small domestic

:20:38.:20:43.

matter in United States policy, we would not want to interfere. Do you

:20:44.:20:46.

think there is anything that America can do in its role as biggest free

:20:47.:20:53.

country in the modern world, that would mean legitimacy? If there are

:20:54.:21:00.

things that I personally affect our interests... If it is immoral and

:21:01.:21:09.

crosses a certain line... We should not try to tell the Russians, or the

:21:10.:21:17.

Chinese... We have had a view on Russia invading Crimea. Crimea is a

:21:18.:21:21.

different thing. That puts the stability of Eastern Europe at risk

:21:22.:21:25.

and that puts the stability of western Europe at risk. If Mr Trump

:21:26.:21:32.

word to invade the Crimea, I would take the same view. What about

:21:33.:21:38.

Muslims who are fearful about the rise in Islamophobia. I want to know

:21:39.:21:44.

how much worse it has to get? It is only his second week in office

:21:45.:21:48.

before this government recognises the merit. We can stand up and say,

:21:49.:21:54.

this is not right. That is a concern people have. Because we have less to

:21:55.:22:01.

be used, the Brexit foreign policy is Trump and Erdogan. I do not think

:22:02.:22:15.

it is that way. Over the past 30, 40 years, under the Blair

:22:16.:22:19.

administration certainly, we took too much of an imperialist view we

:22:20.:22:23.

can manage other people's is for them. It did not work well. We

:22:24.:22:27.

should try to have sensible relationships with great powers,

:22:28.:22:32.

small powers, trading relationships, and except we no longer run the

:22:33.:22:36.

world. That does not mean we should adopt causes we do not believe him.

:22:37.:22:41.

We should believe on our policies and stick to it. We very much

:22:42.:22:46.

disagree on whether it has an impact either on our communities, because

:22:47.:22:51.

it spreads division and hate, or an impact on our world. Future

:22:52.:22:55.

generations will ask, did you get a great trade deal? No, they will ask,

:22:56.:22:59.

what did you do to stop the hate? With so much going on,

:23:00.:23:09.

what better time to launch a new Newsnight slot,

:23:10.:23:11.

which we are calling Viewsnight. The clue is in the title -

:23:12.:23:13.

a two minute chance for someone to make an argument

:23:14.:23:16.

on our programme. We'll do one each day this week -

:23:17.:23:18.

a big idea pertaining to the year - but we won't keep that

:23:19.:23:22.

pace up forever. He used to edit the Radio 4 Today

:23:23.:23:24.

programme, then went rogue and now he writes

:23:25.:23:28.

for the Spectator, among others. Sooner or later, the howling

:23:29.:23:34.

at the moon must die down. The caterwauling and shrieking from

:23:35.:23:48.

the affluent, well mannered, but tragically gained said liberal

:23:49.:23:51.

middle classes here and across the They will surely realise

:23:52.:23:54.

that the democratic will cannot be subverted simply by screaming

:23:55.:23:59.

or indeed setting fire to their own And when the penny finally drops,

:24:00.:24:02.

they will realise the The Brexit and the election

:24:03.:24:06.

of Donald Trump and the huge growth of populist

:24:07.:24:12.

movements across Europe. It's not simply a case

:24:13.:24:14.

of the uneducated, bigoted Untermensch, sticking it

:24:15.:24:16.

to the liberal elite out of Now it passages a huge paradigms

:24:17.:24:21.

shift, away from the vapid liberalism which has kept

:24:22.:24:27.

the poorest of us poor and with less pleasant lives, and which has caused

:24:28.:24:30.

misery and mayhem in the Middle East And, yes, sure, it was

:24:31.:24:34.

in part a socially conservative reaction

:24:35.:24:41.

against the identity politics and the infantile leftism

:24:42.:24:47.

of the last three decades. But it was also a reaction

:24:48.:24:49.

against the devil take the hindmost The desire for change

:24:50.:24:52.

then does not simply come from the right,

:24:53.:24:59.

it also comes from the left. However, if you're a liberal,

:25:00.:25:02.

sorry, your safe space Certainly a greater belief

:25:03.:25:04.

in the nation state and in patriotism and a concomitant

:25:05.:25:08.

disdain for meddling in the affairs of other

:25:09.:25:10.

independent countries. Less immigration, I suspect,

:25:11.:25:13.

and therefore less exploitation of And a certain acerbity towards abuse

:25:14.:25:16.

of the welfare state. In future, maybe, it will be

:25:17.:25:24.

a case of if you don't Also, within each country,

:25:25.:25:27.

a refusal to accept the widening inequalities in our

:25:28.:25:34.

society, and to make sure that the Believe me, this paradigm shift has

:25:35.:25:37.

been a long time coming. We are not trying to court favour

:25:38.:25:50.

with any particular viewpoint We will be bringing

:25:51.:25:56.

you a range of opinions. And they'll all be on our Facebook

:25:57.:25:59.

page as well as on TV. When the Brexit negotiation gets

:26:00.:26:04.

going, we may hear more about a man He's a member of the European

:26:05.:26:07.

parliament, and has been picked as that parliament's

:26:08.:26:11.

Brexit front man. He's a former Belgian

:26:12.:26:14.

Prime Minister as well, and has just written a book

:26:15.:26:16.

about the EU called Now you need to hand it to him -

:26:17.:26:18.

he doesn't mince his words Here he is attacking one

:26:19.:26:24.

of our MEPs in the European Nigel barrage has the whole morning

:26:25.:26:42.

talked about salaries and biggest waste of money. You know,

:26:43.:26:47.

colleagues, what I think is the biggest waste of money in European

:26:48.:26:52.

Union today, there is a salary we up paying to Nigel barrage. That is a

:26:53.:27:05.

big waste of money. -- Farage. You are never there in meetings about

:27:06.:27:13.

the fishing policy. In 2012 but no attendance. It is fantastic what

:27:14.:27:17.

you're doing. You're coming here saying it is a scandal and you pay

:27:18.:27:24.

yourself a salary without doing any Labour in your own committee. That

:27:25.:27:27.

is the reality of your own opinion today.

:27:28.:27:30.

Now his book is everything that eurosceptics have

:27:31.:27:32.

It is an unembarrassed call for a proper US-like federal

:27:33.:27:35.

It's almost counter cultural these days,

:27:36.:27:38.

partly because many are thinking the nation state is reasserting

:27:39.:27:40.

itself as the unit people feel and allegiance to.

:27:41.:27:43.

And also because, his call to make the EU more like the US is coming

:27:44.:27:46.

at a time when many think the US is far from a perfect model.

:27:47.:27:49.

A very good evening to you. What is it when you see Theresa May and

:27:50.:28:02.

Trump? What did you think when they were standing together? Does Britain

:28:03.:28:09.

have good choices out of the EU? What was in anyway depressing from

:28:10.:28:13.

my point of view was what Trump said about the European Union. He said,

:28:14.:28:19.

oh, yeah, I think other countries will go out the European Union, the

:28:20.:28:26.

European Union will disintegrate. I think that Europe, for the moment,

:28:27.:28:30.

is squeezed between a populist president in America who want a

:28:31.:28:34.

disintegration of the union and an autocrat on the other side, Vladimir

:28:35.:28:39.

Putin, who once also to defy Europe. On top of that we have the political

:28:40.:28:46.

radical Islam. I think that Europe, for the moment, has an excess ten...

:28:47.:28:51.

We live in an existential moment for Europeans. You mentioned Putin and

:28:52.:28:57.

Trump but you did not talk about the threat that the public in Europe are

:28:58.:29:01.

voting all over the place, people who, if not fascists, are flirting

:29:02.:29:08.

with it. In Austria, 46% are on the far right. It is inside your abuse

:29:09.:29:14.

should be worrying about, not Trump. I think we can face this, find a

:29:15.:29:19.

solution by that, by coming forward with a vision for the future, for

:29:20.:29:23.

the European Union. The reason people are falling into this trap is

:29:24.:29:30.

because boticker leaders in Europe are showing the way forward. Saying,

:29:31.:29:37.

if you want to really solve the problem of the migration crisis, the

:29:38.:29:42.

economic bailout of the financial crisis. We need a more united Europe

:29:43.:29:53.

and not disintegrated Europe. How should nationalism solve the

:29:54.:29:58.

problems we are facing today in Europe? Climate change? Should it be

:29:59.:30:03.

sold by nationalism. All the migration flow? This is a very basic

:30:04.:30:12.

issue. When people in Germany say, do they mean Europeans or Germans?

:30:13.:30:20.

Certainly in the UK, probably only in Belgium, where you come from.

:30:21.:30:24.

I think it's already thousands of mails from Britain, British citizens

:30:25.:30:32.

telling me, I want to be an EU citizens, I don't want to break up

:30:33.:30:36.

the link with Europe. Because Europe that belongs to my civilisation, my

:30:37.:30:41.

culture, my literature, my architecture. It's true that people

:30:42.:30:46.

are feeling German or Italian or British but also European, an

:30:47.:30:53.

identity is not one identity. No. An identity are different layers and

:30:54.:30:58.

every person has his own identity. Don't give it to the politicians to

:30:59.:31:03.

discuss and define what identity is. You propose defence unity, banking

:31:04.:31:07.

unity, fiscal unity, political union. Basically it's the full

:31:08.:31:12.

works. That is what Euro-sceptics said people were plotting and wanted

:31:13.:31:17.

inside the continent of Europe. That's, they said, why we should

:31:18.:31:20.

leave the project. In a way, they were right. Britain, you agree,

:31:21.:31:24.

Britain would never sign up ever, ever sign up to the manifesto you're

:31:25.:31:30.

proposing, a United States of Europe. Winston Churchill for the

:31:31.:31:37.

first time said a United States of Europe. The problem of Europe, let's

:31:38.:31:41.

be honest, is not that this is a big European Union because the budget of

:31:42.:31:46.

the European Union is only 1% of the European GDP. The problem is that it

:31:47.:31:53.

is still a loose confederation of nation states based on the unanimity

:31:54.:31:58.

rule. We know that an organisation based on the unanimity rule where 28

:31:59.:32:02.

heads of state and government have to agree, it acts always too little

:32:03.:32:05.

too late. That is the problem of the union today. Not fit for purpose,

:32:06.:32:09.

not effective, always too little too late. Therefore we need to reform

:32:10.:32:14.

it. Yeah, and that is the, this book is the manifesto for that direction.

:32:15.:32:18.

Let's talk about Brexit. You have a Brexit job. You heard Theresa May's

:32:19.:32:24.

speech a couple of weeks back, where she outlined her vision of what

:32:25.:32:27.

we're aiming for. Some said that was a British wanting their cake and

:32:28.:32:30.

eating it, they wanted to be in, then not to be in, but in all the

:32:31.:32:35.

good bits and not the bad bits. Was that your perception. I think it's a

:32:36.:32:38.

good summary. You don't think you can work with what she said? What

:32:39.:32:43.

she said was we are out of the European Union, out of the single

:32:44.:32:46.

market, out of the customs union, out of the European Court of

:32:47.:32:51.

Justice. And then maybe we could have this European programme that

:32:52.:32:55.

interest us - that will not work naturally. Why doesn't it work? Why

:32:56.:33:01.

not? It is in your interest to let us cooperate with you. Why wouldn't

:33:02.:33:05.

you? My idea was totally different was against Brexit. I thought that

:33:06.:33:09.

even the best solution should be that Britain is still part of the

:33:10.:33:13.

single market. Not only for us, but in the main interests of the British

:33:14.:33:16.

industry, British economy and the British workers. Let's take a very

:33:17.:33:21.

specific one, the customs union, she said we'll leave the customs union

:33:22.:33:24.

but we would like to have, for example, a particular deal for the

:33:25.:33:28.

car industry, so that supply chains - Sorry - Will that work or not? I

:33:29.:33:32.

don't think that you can do that. Why not? That is what I call pick

:33:33.:33:37.

and choose policy, they're saying OK we go out of every European

:33:38.:33:42.

corporation and then I take the very interesting parts for us, without

:33:43.:33:46.

taking also the obligations, without also the payments that are necessary

:33:47.:33:50.

for that. I don't think that will work. We need a fair partnership.

:33:51.:33:56.

You cannot create a status for countries outside the European Union

:33:57.:34:01.

where it's even more favourable than for the countries who are members of

:34:02.:34:07.

the European Union. It's more favourable whichever way you do it.

:34:08.:34:10.

No taxpayer in Europe would accept that. I think that a fair

:34:11.:34:15.

partnership is possible. And I think also that Europe has to be generous

:34:16.:34:23.

in a certain way towards not specific country, towards this

:34:24.:34:27.

individual citizens in the UK, who want to retake their citizenship.

:34:28.:34:31.

You'll let me get an EU passport? No, no. Not a passport, we know what

:34:32.:34:37.

passport means today. No, no, what I'm thinking about is that maybe

:34:38.:34:41.

some vaengs of the European citizenship could be kept for those

:34:42.:34:47.

people in the UK who want to have them, in the future. That is a

:34:48.:34:51.

generous offer. It's my personal opinion, not the opinion of the

:34:52.:34:55.

European Parliament or the negotiators, but I think we should

:34:56.:35:00.

offer that to those individuals who want it, who are still thinking why

:35:01.:35:04.

Britain has taken that decision. Let's go through some of the other

:35:05.:35:08.

specifics. Financial services, if there's no special deal for the car

:35:09.:35:12.

industry, I mean the financial services industry regulation is

:35:13.:35:16.

equivalent to yours - I will not start here with saying yeah, what we

:35:17.:35:20.

need for the financial service, for the car industry. The basic

:35:21.:35:25.

principle is we don't, cherry-picking will not be allowed.

:35:26.:35:28.

This is an important one, a technical point in a way, not much

:35:29.:35:32.

talked about, but very important. Can we negotiate a trade deal for

:35:33.:35:38.

Britain and the EU, can we negotiate that with you bhiel we're still --

:35:39.:35:42.

while we're talking about the divorce and the amount of money we

:35:43.:35:46.

have to pay or do we have to settle the details of the divorce first and

:35:47.:35:50.

then talk trade? The treaty is clear on this. The take Article 50 of the

:35:51.:35:55.

treaty and it indicates what needs to be done. First of all, withdrawal

:35:56.:35:59.

agreement needs to be agreed and that in the light of the future

:36:00.:36:04.

relationship and partnership with the UK. So you need also to have

:36:05.:36:10.

already at that moment a broad idea of what will be the future

:36:11.:36:14.

relationship. That's exactly what it says. Informal talks can go on both

:36:15.:36:21.

tracks during the two years? You cannot even conclude even on a

:36:22.:36:25.

framework on the future relationship if first of all you don't have the

:36:26.:36:30.

withdrawal agreement. Article 50 is very clear. For the moment, we are

:36:31.:36:34.

not in that stage. We are waiting in fact for the triggering of Article

:36:35.:36:38.

50, by the end of March. Then only I think by the end of May, beginning

:36:39.:36:42.

of June, we can start the negotiations. People have been

:36:43.:36:45.

saying from the European side, Britain has to pay 60 billion euros

:36:46.:36:51.

for payments to pensions of existing staff or commitments made while

:36:52.:36:53.

Britain is a member. Is that serious? The only thing that I know

:36:54.:36:57.

is that the outstanding commitments now and the future outstanding

:36:58.:37:01.

commitments before Britain will leave the European Union in total

:37:02.:37:06.

will be around 600 billion of euros. That's the reality. You can find

:37:07.:37:09.

that in the accounts of the European Union. We will have a lot to talk

:37:10.:37:11.

about. Thanks very much indeed. How have you been getting

:37:12.:37:19.

on with 'Dry January', One minute you're promising yourself

:37:20.:37:21.

you'll get fit and spend more time The next, you're slumped

:37:22.:37:25.

on the sofa watching this show. But vegans have been urging us

:37:26.:37:28.

all to do without meat and dairy this month in an experiment they're

:37:29.:37:31.

calling "veganuary". And what lengths will some vegans go

:37:32.:37:33.

to to make carnivores think again? As the month comes to end, here's

:37:34.:37:38.

own guilty pleasure, Stephen Smith. In her new series, telly

:37:39.:37:42.

chef Nigella Lawson puts on a mouth-watering buffet

:37:43.:37:55.

of vegan sweet meats. That's all well and good,

:37:56.:38:04.

but we wanted to go deeper into this We are approaching the climax

:38:05.:38:07.

of a month-long campaign to get people to go vegan,

:38:08.:38:11.

it's called janu-vegan. It doesn't always

:38:12.:38:16.

roll off the tongue. We like to say it's the hardest part

:38:17.:38:26.

of the month - just saying it! One of the inspirations

:38:27.:38:30.

was Movember. We wanted a month with the name that

:38:31.:38:35.

could become a part of tje annual calendar to encourage people to try

:38:36.:38:38.

vegan for the month of January. At this vegan Expo et

:38:39.:38:43.

Alexandra Palace in London, people are sampling food free

:38:44.:38:47.

of meat and dairy. We marinate it, it's

:38:48.:38:54.

my uncle's recipe. Everybody else that works

:38:55.:39:02.

here is pretty much vegan. I did once try to be a vegetarian

:39:03.:39:08.

when I was about 30. Then I got so depressed about never

:39:09.:39:15.

eating sausages again, that I had I was very young when I first became

:39:16.:39:21.

vegetarian, I thought, "Oh, Veganism is a much more

:39:22.:39:33.

political argument. One of the things about living

:39:34.:39:37.

with Dolly, I've really intelectually come down to the idea

:39:38.:39:40.

that it is correct that we should be vegetarian and probably vegan,

:39:41.:39:46.

but I just don't have the willpower Away from Ally Pally,

:39:47.:39:50.

another, more assertive side In this action outside a fast food

:39:51.:39:59.

restaurant in the West End, campaigners show footage

:40:00.:40:06.

of what they say is mistreatment They can honestly move on,

:40:07.:40:09.

if they find it too upsetting At the same time, people

:40:10.:40:17.

have a natural curiosity We have the masks on to draw

:40:18.:40:21.

attention to ourselves and dehumanise us as well and make

:40:22.:40:25.

it about the footage we're showing. Our aim is for total

:40:26.:40:28.

animal liberation. We want to end all animal

:40:29.:40:30.

exploitation for food, clothing, animal testing

:40:31.:40:34.

or animals in entertainment. I hear what they're saying,

:40:35.:40:36.

OK animals are treated cruelly in these environments,

:40:37.:40:39.

but I love chicken too much. I was going to go to Burger King,

:40:40.:40:45.

but I'm going to skip that now. Because, come on man,

:40:46.:40:48.

they're not out here for no reason. Back to Veganuary and veggie

:40:49.:41:00.

burgers, how many of us could go a month or more without red meat

:41:01.:41:03.

or an egg, come to that? How many people backslide

:41:04.:41:08.

into toad in the hole From the 2016 participants, 63%

:41:09.:41:12.

were still vegan six months later. The BBC is scratching around

:41:13.:41:24.

for a follow up to Bake Off, what about your dad some

:41:25.:41:27.

vegan cake experience. Is that what it's going to be

:41:28.:41:32.

called, some vegan cake experience? Last day for a tax return, if you

:41:33.:42:00.

need to do one. In the meantime, very good night.

:42:01.:42:02.