08/02/2017 Newsnight


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08/02/2017

With Evan Davis. Labour's rebellion over Brexit. Plus, the US attack in Yemen, Trump's relationship with Congress and pension rights for unmarried couples.


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The ayes to the right, 494. The noes to the left, 122.

:00:00.:00:12.

Now the question is - will the House of Lords dare

:00:13.:00:17.

Government sources muttering veiled threats tonight about abolition

:00:18.:00:22.

of the upper house if they don't get their way.

:00:23.:00:25.

We'll look ahead at how easy the politics of exiting

:00:26.:00:28.

And - the agony of Labour MPs over tonight's vote.

:00:29.:00:35.

52 of them defied their leader Jeremy Corbyn -

:00:36.:00:37.

I have been a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn's politics for many decades.

:00:38.:00:46.

I thought Jeremy Corbyn becoming leader was an important turning

:00:47.:00:49.

point for the Labour Party and I would not do anything to undermine

:00:50.:00:52.

What should be the difference between modern marriage

:00:53.:00:58.

The Supreme Court today allowed one half on an unmarried couple

:00:59.:01:05.

We'll look at the rights that go with different

:01:06.:01:09.

kinds of relationships - and debate the right policy

:01:10.:01:11.

In Washington, another busy Newsday, I'm on Capitol Hill where I have

:01:12.:01:22.

been talking to senior Republicans about just how far they will support

:01:23.:01:25.

President Trump and his inimitable use of language.

:01:26.:01:29.

And this exclusive footage of the aftermath of Donald Trump's

:01:30.:01:31.

first military action - a special operations and drone

:01:32.:01:35.

attack in Yemen ten days ago on what the US says

:01:36.:01:38.

The villagers took out their weapons and began to shoot at them. That's

:01:39.:01:49.

when the fighting really began. Many of the people who ran out of their

:01:50.:01:51.

homes for cover were killed. The Commons has done its work, voted

:01:52.:02:04.

on the Article 50 bill and voted for it in overwhelming numbers.

:02:05.:02:07.

That was always the easy bit - it now makes its journey over

:02:08.:02:10.

to the House of Lords for a potentially more

:02:11.:02:12.

But the Commons was not that easy for the Labour Party.

:02:13.:02:16.

19 front benchers voted against invoking Article 50, and it

:02:17.:02:20.

lost its Shadow Cabinet someone tipped as a future leader.

:02:21.:02:25.

Clive Lewis, Shadow Business Secretary, resigned tonight,

:02:26.:02:27.

because he did not feel able to vote for Article 50.

:02:28.:02:30.

Diane Abbott, who seemed to be keeping everyone guessing

:02:31.:02:32.

as to her intentions, did fall behind the party position.

:02:33.:02:34.

Well, our political editor Nick watt is with me.

:02:35.:02:38.

Unamended, the bill, good for the government, amended Shadow Cabinet

:02:39.:02:47.

with Clive Lewis going such a difficult few weeks for Jeremy

:02:48.:02:50.

Corbyn and Labour. It has been an agonising process for the Labour

:02:51.:02:53.

Party with those resignations on the front bench and Clive Lewis

:02:54.:02:58.

resigning from the Shadow Cabinet because Jeremy Corbyn said you

:02:59.:03:00.

cannot remain in the Shadow Cabinet if you could not abide by the three

:03:01.:03:05.

line whip on the Bill. Some senior Labour sources were impatient with

:03:06.:03:09.

Clive Lewis. One of them said he has been trailing his conscience around

:03:10.:03:12.

the television studios in recent weeks but in a statement tonight

:03:13.:03:16.

Jeremy Corbyn responding to the resignation by Clive Lewis who

:03:17.:03:19.

supported him in both leadership contests, said he understood the

:03:20.:03:24.

dilemma facing Labour MPs ins constituencies that voted Remain and

:03:25.:03:29.

this takes us to be startling fact which explains why it is now Labour

:03:30.:03:33.

and not the Tories that is experiencing such grief over Brexit,

:03:34.:03:38.

and that is that two thirds of Labour voters voted to Remain but

:03:39.:03:43.

two thirds of Labour MPs represent constituencies that voted Leave. But

:03:44.:03:48.

there was one non-resignation, Diane Abbott, we had a clip of her in the

:03:49.:03:56.

menu. She was undecided but didn't go. As we heard earlier in the

:03:57.:03:59.

interview with Diane Abbott she was in supporting the bill with any

:04:00.:04:02.

great enthusiasm and it is pretty clear the reason she voted the way

:04:03.:04:06.

she did was out of loyalty to Jeremy Corbyn. I think it is fair to say

:04:07.:04:10.

she felt that if she, such a long-standing friend and a member of

:04:11.:04:13.

that campaign group, they never believed he would become leader all

:04:14.:04:17.

of those decades ago, she felt if she resigned as Shadow Home

:04:18.:04:19.

Secretary that would have been really damaging for him. In my

:04:20.:04:23.

interview, interestingly, Diane Abbott had quite a message for

:04:24.:04:27.

supporters of Jeremy Corbyn on the left who are perhaps relaxed about

:04:28.:04:31.

Brexit, thinking perhaps they are implementing the will and legacy of

:04:32.:04:34.

Tony Benn, they're great hero, who was one of the great leaders on the

:04:35.:04:39.

No side on the EC referendum. This is what she had to say.

:04:40.:04:43.

I respect the results of the referendum and no one wanted

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to thwart it in a perverse kind of way.

:04:47.:04:48.

This is not Tony Benn Brexit, this is Donald Trump Brexit.

:04:49.:04:52.

Donald Trump Brexit, the phrase of the evening. It will go to the House

:04:53.:05:05.

of Lords now and then what happens? The government says the bill goes to

:05:06.:05:09.

the House of Lords with two resounding message is. Message

:05:10.:05:12.

number one, it goes unamended. Message number two, in the two big

:05:13.:05:16.

votes, second and third reading, it was passed with overwhelming

:05:17.:05:20.

majorities, nearly 500 MPs supported it. What ministers are saying is

:05:21.:05:24.

that as we reported last week, if the Lords trying to thwart this bill

:05:25.:05:28.

and seriously delay it the government could be tempted to hold

:05:29.:05:32.

an election with two pledges, taking it out of the European Union and

:05:33.:05:36.

abolishing the House of Lords. Won the senior member of the government

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said to me, and I think I might edit these words on a family programme,

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this person said their message to the Lords was: if you muck with our

:05:44.:05:47.

build we will muck with you, you can guess what he was saying. One pro EU

:05:48.:05:53.

peer said this in response: abolition of the House of Lords

:05:54.:05:57.

seems a small price to pay to keep alive the prospect of finding a way

:05:58.:06:01.

to keep us in the EU. Crucial to say the Labour leadership in the Lord

:06:02.:06:04.

Snowdon there is only so far they can push this. Thank you very much.

:06:05.:06:11.

-- in the Lords, no there is only so far.

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We're joined by Peter Hain - now Lord Hain.

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And the Conservative MP and Brexiteer, Suella Fernandes.

:06:25.:06:26.

What would you propose to do to the Bill? I would propose to keep the

:06:27.:06:33.

border with the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, crucial to the

:06:34.:06:37.

peace process. If you went back on that and started having blockages,

:06:38.:06:41.

it could unravel in a serious way. I say that as a former Secretary of

:06:42.:06:46.

State for Northern Ireland. Secondly, to keep the UK in the

:06:47.:06:49.

Single Market. Ken Bishop of? Membership of the Single Market not

:06:50.:06:57.

the Article 50 bill -- membership of. To protect jobs and prosperity.

:06:58.:07:01.

When people voted to leave the European Union, I understand they

:07:02.:07:06.

voted to leave, but they didn't vote explicitly to leave the Single

:07:07.:07:09.

Market and some of the Brexit leaders, Boris Johnson included,

:07:10.:07:12.

said they wanted to keep the Single Market. Boris Johnson did say he

:07:13.:07:17.

would leave the Single Market. He did seem to support the Single

:07:18.:07:21.

Market. If you do not get your way on the amendments, you have a good

:07:22.:07:24.

argument and bash it around, if you don't get your way how would you

:07:25.:07:29.

vote on Article 50? I will vote against. On principle and in

:07:30.:07:32.

conscience I cannot support something that I think will damage

:07:33.:07:37.

the country and damage especially the people who most need support

:07:38.:07:42.

from the government. Does that raise any red flags? That is an abuse of

:07:43.:07:45.

power, Peter. It is arrogant snobbery. Who are you actually

:07:46.:07:54.

voting for? Who do you represent? Most of your labour constituencies

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voted to leave, you have a three line whip from your leader to

:07:58.:08:02.

support Article 50. And you don't have any mandate or the jitter messy

:08:03.:08:06.

to do what you are doing. There is a blindingly clear message from the

:08:07.:08:13.

Commons -- legitimacy. It was passed with a huge majority sending a clear

:08:14.:08:17.

message to the Lords. They need to discharge their duty and to do

:08:18.:08:21.

otherwise would reduce this country to nothing more than an autocratic

:08:22.:08:25.

regime which trampled over the democratic will of the people. Look

:08:26.:08:29.

what the House of Lords has done on previous occasions. We amended the

:08:30.:08:32.

bill to protect 4 million people who were going to lose their tax credits

:08:33.:08:36.

in legislation you voted for in the House of Commons, as a result of

:08:37.:08:40.

which the Government had to do a U-turn and keep those tax credits.

:08:41.:08:44.

That's the role the House of Lords plays. It isn't going to be some

:08:45.:08:52.

attempt to wreck the Bill. There was a manifesto pledge to stay

:08:53.:08:56.

in the Single Market, it was in the Tory manifesto. As the referendum

:08:57.:08:59.

was also in the manifesto people were entitled to think the policy

:09:00.:09:03.

was to stay in the Single Market whatever the result of the

:09:04.:09:08.

referendum. Firstly, this bill is not actually about... This is about

:09:09.:09:12.

the process of giving the Government the mandate to send the notification

:09:13.:09:16.

to Brussels to trigger Article 50. It's not about anything else, that

:09:17.:09:20.

is why it has passed through totally unedited and unaltered. Secondly, we

:09:21.:09:23.

had months of debate and campaigning and discussion and argument about

:09:24.:09:28.

what Brexit would mean. Both sides agree that leaving the European

:09:29.:09:33.

Union would mean leaving the internal market. It doesn't make any

:09:34.:09:38.

sense... That was never made clear. The official campaign made that

:09:39.:09:41.

clear. Michael Gove made it explicit. Not all of the leaders.

:09:42.:09:45.

When I knocked on doors, two things were said, the 350 million a week

:09:46.:09:50.

would come back to the National Health Service, that resonated on

:09:51.:09:53.

the doorstep and it was like. That was not a lie at all. Are you

:09:54.:09:58.

promising it now? It is incontrovertible that this country

:09:59.:10:02.

since approximately ?350 million however you calculate it to the

:10:03.:10:06.

European Union. The second thing was immigration, the Single Market never

:10:07.:10:10.

came up on the doorstep. When people realised that, say Jaguar car

:10:11.:10:13.

makers, or a Nissan, will face tariffs and barriers and British

:10:14.:10:19.

industry and our exports and jobs and prosperity will be badly damaged

:10:20.:10:23.

by that, then I think there is an opportunity for the House of Lords

:10:24.:10:26.

to say, hang on, we can amend this Bill. There is no intention to wreck

:10:27.:10:31.

the bill. The House of Lords has never said we are going to

:10:32.:10:35.

absolutely try and... What you are proposing would fundamentally alter

:10:36.:10:38.

the nature of the bill as proposed. It would change the effect and it

:10:39.:10:42.

would have the effect of delaying the process, exposing the

:10:43.:10:47.

government's judicial review and weaken our position when it came to

:10:48.:10:50.

negotiating with the European Union. It is about the procedure of

:10:51.:10:54.

withdrawal, nothing more nothing less. And my amendment says the

:10:55.:10:57.

question of the Single Market, the Single Market has to be part of that

:10:58.:11:01.

process. You can leave under Article 50 but the Single Market has to be

:11:02.:11:05.

retained. I will not vote for anything which impoverishes this

:11:06.:11:08.

country, especially the low income poorer members of this country.

:11:09.:11:12.

Points made. I don't want to carry on with that, I want to ask whether

:11:13.:11:15.

this would provoke a constitutional crisis. Would this be an issue about

:11:16.:11:21.

abolition of the House of Lords, or is this a bluff? My sense is the

:11:22.:11:24.

Tory MPs don't want to abolish the House of Lords and they will not do

:11:25.:11:28.

it over one-vote. This would call into question the Lords. Really? The

:11:29.:11:34.

constitutional significance is important. You could get a majority

:11:35.:11:40.

in the house to abolish the House of Lords? Think about public trust. I'm

:11:41.:11:44.

more concerned about our voters and people who put their trust in us to

:11:45.:11:47.

go to Parliament to deliver on their instruction. You've seen the

:11:48.:11:50.

referendum, they voted for a referendum and got a result and they

:11:51.:11:54.

have seen the Commons vote in a particular way. And then by some

:11:55.:11:58.

quirk of abuse of procedure or constitutional technicality, a

:11:59.:12:03.

completely different outcome emerges because of Lords like you not

:12:04.:12:08.

honouring the instruction, the clear instruction and direction from the

:12:09.:12:11.

British people and now the Commons to do the right thing and follow the

:12:12.:12:16.

lead of your Labour MPs who voted with the government tonight. I would

:12:17.:12:19.

like to be elected to the House of Lords, I believe in an elected

:12:20.:12:22.

chamber but the existing system is appointed. I was appointed by the

:12:23.:12:26.

Labour Party and two thirds of Labour voters voted to remain within

:12:27.:12:30.

the European Union. They need to be respected. This country was split

:12:31.:12:33.

down the middle. If your government had been acting in a one nation

:12:34.:12:43.

fashioned to find a way through this that respected the 48% who voted to

:12:44.:12:46.

remain as well as the 52% who should be respected, I agree, for voting to

:12:47.:12:48.

leave, if they found a way of bringing the country together that

:12:49.:12:51.

might be very different but they are going for a hard right-wing Brexit

:12:52.:12:54.

and that I cannot support. Follow the lead of your Labour MPs who

:12:55.:12:57.

joined us in the eye lobby tonight and they did the right thing and

:12:58.:13:03.

they are adhering to democracy. You will hear that argument in the House

:13:04.:13:05.

of Lords over the coming weeks. Thank you for joining us.

:13:06.:13:07.

Now, over in the US, politics as abnormal continues.

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A day that saw President Trump attack Nordstrom the department

:13:10.:13:15.

store for dropping his daughter's fashion range, and attack the judges

:13:16.:13:17.

But perhaps more significantly there have been repercussions

:13:18.:13:21.

from a US raid in Yemen ten days ago.

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For that, and more, Mark Urban is over in Washington for us.

:13:24.:13:26.

As you say, just over a week since that raid in Yemen by US special

:13:27.:13:35.

operations forces. They were targeting and Al-Qaeda in the

:13:36.:13:39.

Arabian Peninsula leader's compound but some things went wrong. Several

:13:40.:13:45.

local people were killed, one of the naval personnel on the mission also

:13:46.:13:48.

lost his life and they had to destroy an aircraft as well. Despite

:13:49.:13:53.

that today the White House said the mission was successful and there was

:13:54.:14:02.

the sacrifice of the Navy SEAL on the mission. In order to better find

:14:03.:14:05.

out what has happened at Newsnight sent a journalist to the scene of

:14:06.:14:11.

the raid. Some of the images she captured were distressing, and may

:14:12.:14:18.

be to some viewers as she gathered eyewitness testimony.

:14:19.:14:21.

This is what was left behind following the first counterterrorism

:14:22.:14:23.

operation approved by President Donald Trump.

:14:24.:14:24.

A US raid on the small village of Yakla southwest of Yemen

:14:25.:14:27.

According to the locals 25 people died that day.

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Amongst them an American marine and an

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It's hard to ever call something a complete

:14:37.:14:43.

success when you have a

:14:44.:14:44.

But I think when you look at the totality of what was gained to

:14:45.:14:51.

prevent the future loss of life here in America

:14:52.:14:53.

and against our people and our institutions and probably

:14:54.:14:57.

throughout the world in terms of what some

:14:58.:14:59.

of these individuals have

:15:00.:15:00.

done, I think it is a successful operation by all standards.

:15:01.:15:08.

But from exclusive interviews with conducted

:15:09.:15:10.

with eyewitnesses on the ground, here is what we understand happened.

:15:11.:15:13.

At 1am US drones were heard hovering low over the village.

:15:14.:15:18.

Shortly after, three targets, a clinic, school and

:15:19.:15:21.

They were suspected of harbouring Al-Qaeda militants.

:15:22.:15:28.

At 2am and Osprey aircraft that took part in the operation similar to

:15:29.:15:31.

this one crash landed around three kilometres away from the village,

:15:32.:15:34.

The US later destroyed their own $75 million aircraft.

:15:35.:15:43.

These exclusive pictures showed the wreckage of the

:15:44.:15:47.

Osprey, which we've had verified by an arms expert

:15:48.:15:49.

from the Royal United Services Institute.

:15:50.:15:53.

Approximately 30 marines then approached the village.

:15:54.:15:59.

TRANSLATION: They came by foot and they were allowed.

:16:00.:16:02.

When the soldiers got here they spread out and the

:16:03.:16:04.

villagers took out their weapons and began to shoot at them.

:16:05.:16:07.

That's when the fighting really began.

:16:08.:16:09.

Many of the people who ran out of their

:16:10.:16:11.

The American government says they stormed a

:16:12.:16:19.

terrorist base and that the majority of those killed were Al-Qaeda

:16:20.:16:22.

But this local man believes that that's not the case

:16:23.:16:26.

TRANSLATION: This is the catastrophe that was committed by the American

:16:27.:16:33.

Marines and this is a new graveyard that was opened for the dead.

:16:34.:16:39.

The women were with their husbands and

:16:40.:16:43.

the children were with their parents.

:16:44.:16:47.

Locals who believe that of the 24 people killed just one was a

:16:48.:16:51.

Seven of the others were men believed to

:16:52.:16:55.

have been armed and firing on the soldiers.

:16:56.:16:57.

The other 16, unarmed women and children.

:16:58.:17:03.

This is an image of one of the children believed to

:17:04.:17:06.

Some believe that what happened in this

:17:07.:17:14.

village indicates a dramatic change of gear

:17:15.:17:15.

for US foreign policy in the

:17:16.:17:17.

This really looks like a much more aggressive American stance

:17:18.:17:20.

in terms of putting boots on the ground and trying to take

:17:21.:17:23.

Al-Qaeda militants out directly face to face

:17:24.:17:26.

rather than doing what they've done in the past which is either to use

:17:27.:17:30.

drones or allied Yemeni forces on the ground.

:17:31.:17:33.

They've only really launched one other operation where

:17:34.:17:37.

American troops have gone in and led the charge,

:17:38.:17:39.

and that was an attempt to rescue an American journalist

:17:40.:17:42.

which led to the death of that journalist.

:17:43.:17:47.

So it's certainly a high risk strategy and it feels like

:17:48.:17:49.

So was this, as Trump's spokesman says, a successful

:17:50.:17:57.

There may be questions in Washington about the

:17:58.:18:04.

planning of the operation but villagers here believe something

:18:05.:18:06.

That was Nawal al-Maghafi. I should have pointed out that Newsnight

:18:07.:18:17.

centre cameraman to the scene and she did her report based on those

:18:18.:18:19.

pictures. Until recently he was

:18:20.:18:21.

Senior Director for Counterterrorism You have intimate familiarity with

:18:22.:18:34.

these raids. We can start with the business about the Yemen government

:18:35.:18:38.

today saying that as a result of this mission, US forces are no

:18:39.:18:42.

longer going to be able to operate in this way. Is that a blow to the

:18:43.:18:49.

US capabilities? I think so, we have consistently relied on the support

:18:50.:18:52.

of the Yemeni government to do the things he wanted. But this type of

:18:53.:18:56.

ground operation for something other than a hostage rescue is unusual

:18:57.:19:01.

compared to the past so it might inhibit abilities to do this going

:19:02.:19:05.

forward but we have to wait and see but it is not surprising I would say

:19:06.:19:11.

that. Is it believable? I can many times when the Pakistani government

:19:12.:19:16.

said under the Obama administration we. Drone strikes and that was not

:19:17.:19:22.

exactly true. Compared to the cases of drone strikes, US boots on the

:19:23.:19:27.

ground and in a firefight that apparently broke out and significant

:19:28.:19:30.

reports of civilian casualties that the Pentagon is acknowledging that

:19:31.:19:35.

took place, so this is a different dynamic than drone strikes. Some of

:19:36.:19:41.

your colleagues have tweeted and spoken about the way this operation,

:19:42.:19:48.

one essentially with the same mission, was worked out what

:19:49.:19:52.

President Obama was still in office. How close to President Obama,

:19:53.:19:55.

himself to authorising such a mission? According to that, not very

:19:56.:20:03.

close, the deputies of the US government officials from across the

:20:04.:20:08.

security community said, we want to make sure this is something that the

:20:09.:20:11.

President's successor can take on and the President agreed. Did they

:20:12.:20:18.

feel this was much too risky? There is significant risk to forces but in

:20:19.:20:22.

these type of operations and a process that would have been run in

:20:23.:20:25.

the Obama administration would have looked at the range of factors. What

:20:26.:20:30.

are the risks to diplomatic relations in the region? Were doing

:20:31.:20:33.

this in the middle of an ongoing campaign from Saudi Arabia and the

:20:34.:20:37.

United Arab Emirates that is not popular and what was the

:20:38.:20:41.

intelligence value? There will be various things we need to work

:20:42.:20:47.

through before making this decision. People on the other side of politics

:20:48.:20:51.

say you are saying this to make Donald Trump look bad and you were

:20:52.:20:55.

involved in lots of operations, Libya and Somalia, in which similar

:20:56.:20:59.

risks were taken and they could attack on wrong. Is this about

:21:00.:21:04.

politics or are you after something else? No, this is certainly not

:21:05.:21:09.

about politics, or criticising the operation itself. The people who

:21:10.:21:13.

plan these operations and put their lives on the line to conduct them

:21:14.:21:17.

are very brave and take all appropriate measures to mitigate the

:21:18.:21:22.

risks. We are concerned about making sure that when we send people into

:21:23.:21:28.

harms way, we consider all considerations and the President has

:21:29.:21:31.

also asked his team to prepare for contingency plans. If there are

:21:32.:21:36.

accusations of civilian casualties. What is the message? Those types of

:21:37.:21:43.

things will have been worked out. We will eventually see a report on the

:21:44.:21:49.

follow-up operation. Thank you. We are talking in one of the office

:21:50.:21:53.

buildings of the Senate and you might hear some are coming here but

:21:54.:21:58.

this is really one of the front lines of politics. Yesterday there

:21:59.:22:01.

was a very remarkable occurrence, the first time in American political

:22:02.:22:05.

history that the Vice President had to cast his vote in favour of one of

:22:06.:22:11.

President Trump's nominees, Betsy DeVos, and that happened because

:22:12.:22:14.

Trump has a thin majority in the Senate. I have been looking at the

:22:15.:22:19.

question of just how far Senate and Congress will be the first real

:22:20.:22:22.

breaks on President Trump's ambitions.

:22:23.:22:28.

You can come here promising to drain the swamp or dethrone

:22:29.:22:30.

But this city has a way of protecting its interests.

:22:31.:22:35.

Slowing down those who challenge its ways.

:22:36.:22:40.

So the Trump administration's process of nominating a Cabinet

:22:41.:22:43.

This level of obstruction at the beginning of an administration

:22:44.:22:50.

is really record-setting in a very unfortunate way.

:22:51.:23:00.

While the senator blamed the Democrats for the go-slow,

:23:01.:23:03.

they don't have the numbers to wreck Trump's agenda.

:23:04.:23:07.

Rather, it is doubts among Republicans that could pose the most

:23:08.:23:10.

Keen to impress the people who voted for him, President Trump has signed

:23:11.:23:18.

some highly significant and emotive executive orders.

:23:19.:23:24.

But you cannot run the country by those alone, particularly when it

:23:25.:23:27.

comes to spending money or changing existing laws.

:23:28.:23:32.

For that, you need to go up to the Hill and get people

:23:33.:23:35.

Thousands of people work on the Hill.

:23:36.:23:40.

In offices so widely spread, the place has its own subway.

:23:41.:23:43.

Things here travel at the speed legislators can work with.

:23:44.:23:49.

As many presidents elected on a reformed

:23:50.:23:52.

John Feary has been a Hill insider for the best part of 20 years.

:23:53.:23:58.

With a Republican majority of just two in the Senate,

:23:59.:24:01.

he sees particular risks there for the White House.

:24:02.:24:05.

The members of the Senate, especially because they have

:24:06.:24:08.

six-year terms, they have tremendous power, they can gum up

:24:09.:24:11.

the works any time they want and you will see that,

:24:12.:24:14.

especially for some Republicans who don't really like Donald Trump,

:24:15.:24:17.

who don't really trust Donald Trump, they are going to step up

:24:18.:24:20.

There is no obedience with this Congress, there never has been.

:24:21.:24:25.

But especially with this President, I don't think there ever will be.

:24:26.:24:28.

The combination seen with the nomination of Betsy DeVos,

:24:29.:24:32.

of Democrats keen to thwart Trump voting with a small number

:24:33.:24:35.

of dissident Republicans, could pose all manner of problems

:24:36.:24:38.

To avoid them, he must stick to policies where

:24:39.:24:45.

he and Congressional Republicans are on the same page.

:24:46.:24:49.

I believe on the need for bilateral agreements,

:24:50.:24:54.

with the UK or Japan, I think there will be a partnership.

:24:55.:24:58.

We can work with him on tax reform, we all agree the tax

:24:59.:25:01.

There is over 70,000 pages in our tax code, it is too complex,

:25:02.:25:06.

people want a simpler affair and in many respects, flatter.

:25:07.:25:09.

So that is something we should be focused on and I think

:25:10.:25:12.

we'll find common ground with the administration.

:25:13.:25:17.

Among those on powerful Senate committees, there are already key

:25:18.:25:19.

figures who now challenge Trump on issues such as the handling

:25:20.:25:23.

of his immigrant ban or his professed admiration

:25:24.:25:25.

What do you think, realistically, you can do in the Senate to stop

:25:26.:25:34.

I believe the kinds of hearings we had this morning are important

:25:35.:25:41.

As we heard Senator Portman do, Russia has not been a partner

:25:42.:25:48.

And there are other opportunities that we will have.

:25:49.:25:56.

On Putin or the immigration ban, are you worried

:25:57.:25:59.

about what the President has been saying?

:26:00.:26:00.

Look, there has been a lot of things said that I would not say.

:26:01.:26:05.

But, you know, I think as time moves on, there will be a much more coming

:26:06.:26:14.

I think the administration is just getting going and my sense is that

:26:15.:26:22.

in the very near future I think we will be in the

:26:23.:26:25.

Several leading Republicans, including former Presidential

:26:26.:26:29.

candidate Marco Rubio, have already put down a marker

:26:30.:26:31.

Do the President's comments about Putin worry you at all?

:26:32.:26:40.

I am not worried about words as much as actions.

:26:41.:26:43.

What do you need to see in terms of...

:26:44.:26:45.

Right now we have sanctions and as long as they are in place

:26:46.:26:48.

Do you think sanctions should be put in law,

:26:49.:26:51.

And I am open to making them permanent without

:26:52.:27:00.

Once the President puts forward budget plans,

:27:01.:27:04.

the political machine here will really swing into action.

:27:05.:27:07.

Many will want to grab new spending but there is also a powerful caucus

:27:08.:27:11.

among Republicans who see Trump's pledge of tax cuts and big spending

:27:12.:27:14.

We're not talking about any kind of changes to the mandatory

:27:15.:27:22.

Which is where you need to save money.

:27:23.:27:26.

And that is where most of the spending is.

:27:27.:27:28.

And we will learn a great deal more about that when the President

:27:29.:27:33.

I'm not sure exactly, but over the next several weeks

:27:34.:27:38.

And perhaps we will get some answers then because right now

:27:39.:27:41.

it is hard to reconcile all these competing demands.

:27:42.:27:49.

On nominations, healthcare or Russian sanctions,

:27:50.:27:51.

Trump campaign trail pledges are already being modified

:27:52.:27:54.

As the President starts to spend money, that will intensify.

:27:55.:28:07.

Mark Urban there, over in the US with Republican lawmakers.

:28:08.:28:11.

There is certainly thinking going on, on that side as to how

:28:12.:28:13.

But perhaps the bigger challenge is for the Democrats.

:28:14.:28:18.

Despite having won the popular vote in six of the last seven

:28:19.:28:21.

presidential elections, with the demographics running

:28:22.:28:24.

in the party's favour, it has remarkably managed to lose

:28:25.:28:27.

the presidency, underperform in governorship races,

:28:28.:28:29.

and it is in a minority in the House and the Senate.

:28:30.:28:32.

How will rebuild and where did it go wrong?

:28:33.:28:35.

The man who was campaign manager for Hillary Clinton,

:28:36.:28:37.

Robby Mook has been speaking at the Oxford Union

:28:38.:28:41.

Good evening to you. Thank you. Where do the Democrats go from here?

:28:42.:28:58.

How do they rebuild? I think the future is potentially bright for our

:28:59.:29:02.

party. As you outlined we are already seeing that rather than

:29:03.:29:05.

focusing on creating jobs the Republicans are looking at how they

:29:06.:29:08.

can cut taxes for the wealthiest people in this country, cut taxes

:29:09.:29:13.

for corporations. I don't think that's the bargain the voters

:29:14.:29:16.

counted on. The other thing to keep in mind is I remember back in 2005

:29:17.:29:22.

after John Kerry lost his bid for President and less than two years

:29:23.:29:27.

later Democrats took back both houses of Congress, I also remember

:29:28.:29:32.

2009 just after President Obama won people said the Republican Party was

:29:33.:29:36.

dead and less than two years later they had the biggest pick-up since

:29:37.:29:40.

70 years. We have had swing elections for the last so many years

:29:41.:29:44.

and I don't see why the Democrats cannot fare well in the midterms.

:29:45.:29:48.

Let me tell you why perhaps, the traditional coalition of Liberals on

:29:49.:29:54.

the coast and the rust belt workers, the Democratic base, the coalition

:29:55.:29:57.

has fallen apart because those two groups of people don't agree on

:29:58.:30:01.

anything and one what are more inclined to vote for populist

:30:02.:30:05.

nationalism as you are seeing in lots of countries. Is difficult for

:30:06.:30:09.

the centre-left parties to hold back coalition together and it is true in

:30:10.:30:13.

the US, isn't it? I think that's a bit of an exaggeration for a few

:30:14.:30:17.

reasons. First of all the number of votes that Trump won Michigan,

:30:18.:30:24.

Wisconsin by was a small amount of votes, Hillary Clinton won the

:30:25.:30:27.

popular vote, the congressional elections in the house happened

:30:28.:30:31.

across the country. I disagree with the premise that people can't agree

:30:32.:30:35.

on anything, I don't think that is true at all. I think this was a

:30:36.:30:38.

change election, there were gale force winds coming at Hillary

:30:39.:30:43.

Clinton, not just because people were looking for change generally,

:30:44.:30:45.

but also because of what Vladimir Putin could delve -- Vladimir Putin

:30:46.:30:53.

did. I think Americans agree we need to focus on jobs and look at what

:30:54.:30:58.

the first thing is that Donald Trump does in this election. He is holding

:30:59.:31:02.

people up at airports. It is a poor policy, most people don't support

:31:03.:31:05.

it, and I think he will be held accountable for not focusing on what

:31:06.:31:10.

he promised, which is creating jobs and raising wages. I think Democrats

:31:11.:31:14.

are in a fantastic position to hold him accountable. You are focusing

:31:15.:31:18.

quite a bit of your comments on what Trump is doing wrong and I seek that

:31:19.:31:22.

is a big hope of how the Democrats will rebuild. Just looking back on

:31:23.:31:26.

the campaign, though, the gales did blow and there was a lot against

:31:27.:31:34.

Hillary. Is there anything you would do significantly differently that

:31:35.:31:37.

you think might have won the election? It is hard to say, such a

:31:38.:31:42.

small margin, as we discussed, that anything would make a difference. Of

:31:43.:31:45.

course we wish we had had more resources in Michigan and Wisconsin.

:31:46.:31:52.

We probably had four times as many staff in Michigan as President Obama

:31:53.:31:56.

did. We increased it quite a bit but we absolutely could and should have

:31:57.:32:01.

done more with that. I think I would have thought a lot longer and harder

:32:02.:32:05.

about how we could break through with our message. Great analysis was

:32:06.:32:14.

done by Vox looking at what candidate said on the stump, Hillary

:32:15.:32:17.

Clinton talked about jobs and the economy a lot more than Donald Trump

:32:18.:32:21.

but because of the sum of headwinds we faced that wasn't reaching the

:32:22.:32:25.

voters. I wish they had more of a chance to understand what Hillary

:32:26.:32:28.

was really running for, not the Republican opposition dump that was

:32:29.:32:35.

happening on the Hill through the farcical hearings that were held, or

:32:36.:32:39.

through WikiLeaks and Vladimir Putin. Do you think a fresher faced

:32:40.:32:44.

Democrat candidate, because basically it felt like a change

:32:45.:32:47.

election and it was somebody up there who was 25 years in the public

:32:48.:32:51.

eye. Do you think a fresher faced candidate could have done it more

:32:52.:32:55.

successfully? Look, I don't think we have ever had a more qualified

:32:56.:32:59.

candidate, grittier candidate, than Hillary Clinton. She would have been

:33:00.:33:03.

a big change, she would have been the first woman President in our

:33:04.:33:08.

history. Obviously we need to focus on the future now. I think you are

:33:09.:33:11.

going to see a lot of new faces coming into our party, I'm talking

:33:12.:33:14.

about a lot of young people planning to run for the first time whether it

:33:15.:33:18.

be for Congress or local office. You will see lots of people run for

:33:19.:33:23.

President that you and I wouldn't necessarily think about right now. I

:33:24.:33:27.

think we have a lot of opportunity and I have been encouraging people

:33:28.:33:32.

in our party to look forward, to remember that we actually won a

:33:33.:33:36.

majority of votes, that the margin was so close in those states and the

:33:37.:33:40.

headwinds were so unprecedented. We have a more favourable environment

:33:41.:33:43.

when Donald Trump must answer for his actions and our prospects will

:33:44.:33:47.

be brighter and we have a lot of good talent to carry us over. Just

:33:48.:33:51.

give us some advice in this country. We have been debating and there has

:33:52.:33:55.

been lots of controversy about inviting President Trump over and

:33:56.:33:58.

giving him red-carpet treatment and royal carriage. Do you think we

:33:59.:34:02.

should give him the royal carriage ride down the mall, or should we

:34:03.:34:06.

hold our noses and say we don't want to do business with you? I'm going

:34:07.:34:10.

to leave it to the British people to decide what kind of welcome they

:34:11.:34:14.

want to give. That is not my place. Our two countries have an important

:34:15.:34:18.

relationship and I don't want Donald Trump or any other President to

:34:19.:34:23.

damage that relationship so I'm glad that our countries are going to

:34:24.:34:27.

continue to maintain close ties and work together. I think people around

:34:28.:34:33.

the world need to speak up and listen to their conscience, the

:34:34.:34:37.

rhetoric happening whether it is from Donald Trump or any other

:34:38.:34:41.

politician around the world that is trying to divide people and trying

:34:42.:34:44.

to pretend to focus on helping families, when really they are

:34:45.:34:51.

helping a very limited segment of the population. Again, I have not

:34:52.:34:54.

seen what Donald Trump is doing to deliver for some of those families

:34:55.:34:57.

that are really hurting that put a lot of faith in him and that is

:34:58.:35:02.

where we have to keep our focus so I hope people here in Britain will

:35:03.:35:07.

speak out if he comes. We will continue to speak out in the US and

:35:08.:35:11.

I really do believe the world is going to work through this and our

:35:12.:35:15.

best days are still ahead. Robby Mook, thank you for joining us.

:35:16.:35:19.

Thank you. Cohabitation took a step

:35:20.:35:19.

towards marriage today with the Supreme Court finding

:35:20.:35:22.

in favour of an unmarried woman, and her spousal right or non-spousal

:35:23.:35:32.

to her late partner's pension. It was a public sector pension that

:35:33.:35:35.

would have paid to her if she had been married to him,

:35:36.:35:39.

or if he had specifically nominated her as a partner -

:35:40.:35:43.

but neither of those worked, and yet they had lived as man and

:35:44.:35:45.

wife for a decade before he died. Sometimes the state treats couples

:35:46.:35:49.

as couples regardless of marriage; sometimes it treats them as couples

:35:50.:35:51.

only if they are married. For example, cohabiting couples

:35:52.:35:54.

are treated as married for the benefit system -

:35:55.:35:56.

which counts the joint Which happens to save

:35:57.:35:58.

the state money. But the inheritance tax

:35:59.:36:05.

system treats cohabiting couples as unmarried,

:36:06.:36:06.

which also saves the state money. You can always get married

:36:07.:36:08.

if you want to avoid the bill, but not everybody does -

:36:09.:36:11.

such as Matt Hawkins And Sir Paul Coleridge,

:36:12.:36:13.

Chairman of the Marriage Foundation Good evening to you all. Why don't

:36:14.:36:22.

you want to get married to Matt? I think some of his family is

:36:23.:36:27.

horrified about the idea that we are publicly speaking out against the

:36:28.:36:33.

idea of marrying Matt. I very much love Matt but I don't see us as

:36:34.:36:37.

husband and wife. Do you see yourselves together for life? Is

:36:38.:36:42.

that the plan? Yes, we first met ten years ago and first got together

:36:43.:36:45.

nine years ago so we've been together a long time but I think

:36:46.:36:49.

it's just that I don't feel inside that I am a wife, I am not Matt's

:36:50.:36:55.

wife and he is not my husband. Matt, do you think you have the

:36:56.:36:58.

responsibilities of marriage? You can walk out on clear and as I

:36:59.:37:03.

understand it with cohabitation there would be no kind of, whoever

:37:04.:37:08.

was earning money or if you jointly made money during the time you are

:37:09.:37:11.

together you could just take it away, there is no responsibilities,

:37:12.:37:15.

is that right, Matt? There is only the responsibility in the sense that

:37:16.:37:19.

I love Claire and I want to do right and we are a team and I want to stay

:37:20.:37:24.

together, absolutely but I also want legal and financial protection. We

:37:25.:37:27.

don't see marriage as being for us but it is for lots of people. Is the

:37:28.:37:32.

state not entitled to say we define the difference between couples who

:37:33.:37:35.

do sign a contract, if you like, and those who say we love each other but

:37:36.:37:40.

not willing to sign? It is up to couples to have the right and safe

:37:41.:37:44.

how they want to have a relationship and is not right for the state to

:37:45.:37:48.

say there is only one way you can do that. We have heard the situation

:37:49.:37:51.

there. What is wrong with the argument they are making? Well, this

:37:52.:37:56.

is international marriage week so you wouldn't expect me to downplay

:37:57.:37:59.

the importance of marriage this week. But it is very interesting

:38:00.:38:06.

what they said. Because the essential ingredient of marriage,

:38:07.:38:09.

and indeed, it seems, of their relationship is that they have made

:38:10.:38:13.

a commitment. They have made a decision to stay together. Your view

:38:14.:38:16.

is the state shouldn't recognise it because it they haven't gone for

:38:17.:38:21.

half an hour to a local authority office. I think their position is

:38:22.:38:27.

that they would like to have a legal arrangement, namely a civil

:38:28.:38:32.

partnership, but for a principal reason which I don't know they would

:38:33.:38:36.

prefer it wasn't a married arrangement. So they would like to

:38:37.:38:41.

draw this supple, and I would say rather semantic distinction between

:38:42.:38:46.

the two. -- this subtle. The essential ingredient is they have

:38:47.:38:49.

made the decision to stay together and if people have made the decision

:38:50.:38:52.

to stay together it is important that it is recognised by some kind

:38:53.:38:58.

of legal agreement. If one of them died with pension rights, in this

:38:59.:39:03.

case law should make sure that the pension rights are transferred even

:39:04.:39:06.

though there was no marriage? I think if you are thinking about the

:39:07.:39:11.

Supreme Court case today, if ever there was a case of bad cases make

:39:12.:39:16.

bad law that was a terribly borderline case, they had been

:39:17.:39:19.

living together for ten years and they were engaged and he failed to

:39:20.:39:23.

get round to the paperwork. So it would have been grossly unfair for

:39:24.:39:26.

her not to have benefited in the same way. But I think it is most

:39:27.:39:31.

important for the state to retain a distinction between the unmarried

:39:32.:39:36.

and the married because a lot of people don't want to give each other

:39:37.:39:39.

obligations. When should we say you are properly responsible for each

:39:40.:39:45.

other and we are going to take you seriously? Is it six months, is

:39:46.:39:51.

kids? We are part of the equal civil partnership campaign and I think

:39:52.:39:54.

that there is a difference between cohabiting and having a legal...

:39:55.:40:01.

Piece of paper, a certificate. Yes, saying I want my relationship

:40:02.:40:05.

validated in law because we cannot assume what the cohabiting couples

:40:06.:40:08.

want. In this case it was clear that Denise has gone through eight years

:40:09.:40:11.

of pain and it was clear what they wanted, they were engaged, and in

:40:12.:40:15.

our case it is clear what we want, we want legal recognition for our

:40:16.:40:19.

partnership but you can't say that for all cohabiting couples. Some of

:40:20.:40:23.

them may see themselves as partners. We should say you have the right to

:40:24.:40:28.

cohabit with a minimal set of entitlements, more entitlements with

:40:29.:40:30.

a civil partnership and then people can do the full English and have the

:40:31.:40:33.

marriage, is that the kind of picture Matt? I think what we want

:40:34.:40:39.

is to see civil partnerships as equal to marriage. You will get the

:40:40.:40:42.

same rights but it is a different institution and a different way of

:40:43.:40:46.

getting those rights. Can we not forget the children in this

:40:47.:40:49.

discussion? The children is what matter, the children is what the

:40:50.:40:53.

Marriage Foundation is about. The most important thing in a child's

:40:54.:40:56.

life is stability and stability comes with a decision and commitment

:40:57.:41:00.

and legal arrangement. And that will come with the arrangement and

:41:01.:41:05.

becomes even more so with marriage. Thank you all very much.

:41:06.:41:07.

That's it for tonight. We leave you with 14-year-old

:41:08.:41:12.

Kyra Poh from Singapore, who took part in the Wind Games

:41:13.:41:14.

in Catalonia at the weekend. This is a sport that involves

:41:15.:41:17.

performing in a high-power Kyra unexpectedly trounced

:41:18.:41:20.

the mostly adult male line-up to win gold in the the freestyle section

:41:21.:41:26.

ans be crowned world's fastest flyer, performing in winds of up

:41:27.:41:28.

to 230 kilometres per hour. # But for now it's time

:41:29.:41:31.

to run, it's time to run! Plenty of cloud for the remainder of

:41:32.:42:40.

the weekend it will feel cold with a nagging easterly breeze

:42:41.:42:41.