09/02/2017 Newsnight


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09/02/2017

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.


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Five years ago, Sir Bernard Hogan Howe was appointed

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It's a very complex job policing London and people understand that.

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My job in leading the Met is to make sure we get crime down, we arrest

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criminals and that we support victims.

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He steps down this month, but is policing in London

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and the rest of the country in a happy and glorious state?

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Sir Bernard is with us for a farewell television interview.

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Also tonight, we hear from the parents of Trayvon Martin,

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the black 17 year-old killed by a white neighbourhood

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Equal rights, community, it is supposed to be that we are all the

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same and I just don't think with this administration so far with the

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things that they are doing they are proving that to be true.

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Do you have confidence in John Bercow, the Speaker

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That very question is being put to MPs.

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We'll hear the case for and against him.

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And how far should the authorities go to prevent poaching?

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Look at this, this is the village road and just over here is the

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National Park full of all of those wild animals. Berardo fences, no

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signs, and if I was to step across and into it there is a real danger

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that I could be shot. -- there are no fences.

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For the last five-and-a-half years, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe has been

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Metropolitan Police Commissioner and Britain's most senior policeman.

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Appointed just after the 2011 riots by then Home Secretary Theresa May,

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with the backing of then London Mayor Boris Johnson,

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his reign is coming to an end this month.

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In some ways he can look back on his years with satisfaction -

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crime has fallen and the Olympics passed off peacefully.

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But his is a job that is always embroiled in controversy,

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and there has been no shortage of that.

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Plebgate, the purchase of water cannon, Operation Elvedon, Operation

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And there has been a growing sense, expressed by Theresa May herself,

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that policing is not quite all it should be.

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We'll talk about the state of policing shortly,

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Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe was appointed as Met

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Commissioner in late 2011, a bad time for the police.

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A month before his appointment urban riots

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started across England in connection with a London police shooting.

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The political climate for the thin blue

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In the last few years we have seen the

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Leveson Inquiry, the appalling conclusions of the Hillsborough

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Independent Panel, the death of Ian Tomlinson

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and the sacking of PC Harwood, the ongoing inquiry...

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Running the Metropolitan Police is, of course, a

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phenomenally complicated job but one of Sir Bernard's biggest challenges

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is perhaps best understood by looking at the building behind me.

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This, this is the new New Scotland Yard and you might have noticed it's

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quite a lot smaller than the old one.

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The Met absorbed a 22% budget cut in the last Parliament, so how

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Well, I think you have to say that London is safer than

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it was in 2011 when Bernard Hogan-Howe came in in the sense that

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crime has continued to fall over that period.

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We certainly haven't seen a recurrence of the London

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riots which took place in 2011 just before he came in.

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incident, mass-casualty terrorist incident.

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So in that sense he has been successful.

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But obviously, you know, only part of that is down to

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what the police do and part of it is down to wider

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David Lammy, a London MP, has been conducting an official review into

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Well, he came in after the riots and the

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big issue was dealing with the increase in stop and search.

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And a huge crisis in confidence in both

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black and urban communities, but also young people.

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And I think he did step back from stop and search.

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We have seen more intelligence-led stop and search.

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It's still too high but it is a lot lower,

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and the noise is not as loud as it was.

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He also delivered a good Olympics and that was a big

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challenge at that time, would the Olympics be delivered

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Lots of Londoners, however, agree on some specific

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There's been a series of quite high profile

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and very costly probes into

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So, for example, child abuse and hacking.

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Which haven't turned out particularly well.

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I think there is a real issue in the Metropolitan Police around

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And I think finally there is perhaps the

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slightly dismissive attitude to the changing nature of crime,

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So recently I'm sure some of your viewers will have heard

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Sir Bernard made a joke about throwing laptops at crowds which I

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think is perhaps an unhelpful comment.

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Some of those failings contributed to a damning recent

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report on the Met and child protection.

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Far too many of the cases we looked at fell well short

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of expected standards and meant that victims weren't protected.

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Evidence was lost and offenders continued to

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The effect of those cuts have also been felt.

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The neighbourhood picture looks far different

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and not nearly as good as

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it was if you went back five, six years.

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The officers that you know in your local community, their names,

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their phone numbers, that neighbourhood levels picture, the

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anti-social behaviour in communities, particularly on some of

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our toughest housing estates, I think has got worse

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Good afternoon, I'm pleased to announce that Bernard Hogan-Howe

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has been appointed as the next Commissioner of the Metropolitan

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Looking back, though, Sir Bernard has done something very

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tough that neither of his two predecessors managed.

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Serve five years and then retire at a time of

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Chris Kirk the. Sir Bernard is with me, good evening. Good evening. --

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Chris Cooke. Theresa May was scathing about the police, I could

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read the quotes but essentially she said they hold the public in

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contempt and it's not just a few bad apples, it is a significant

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minority. Was she right at the time? We have experienced some challenges

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over the last few years and we have high standards and if we do not meet

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them we are disappointed but that was in 2014, here we are in 2017.

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Only two and a half years ago. Two and a half years is a long time. Has

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changed for the better now? I think so, nobody would argue it is perfect

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but it is true that police forces around the world look to us as a

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great example of good policing. But she was scathing. You've got to our

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knowledge, everybody must acknowledge, we police the streets

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of the city without a gun and the reason we do that is because we have

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the respect and support of the public which is vitally important

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and we should all recognise that. One of the points she made was that

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only four in ten black people trust the police if you ask them and she

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said that was an unsustainable position. Has not improved? It has

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during my tenure in London. I can point to two things which are

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powerful pieces of evidence that we're getting better. We are more

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representative of the London I see on the streets. If you look at the

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recruiting over the last 18 months one in three of our recruits are

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from minorities. What about the BBC? When was the last time you saw that

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many people who come from minorities who work here? I don't want to

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isolate that is one example of the establishment. Number two, which was

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in some of your report, we reduced stop and by 70%, when I took over we

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were stop searching 1.3 million people per year, that is too many.

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What we did in the next two and a half to three years, we reduced the

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number of stop and searches and increased the number of people

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arrested and at the same time crime came down. We can do it better by

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targeting the people who need stopping. Knife crime has started

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going up in the last three years, quite sharply. Not in the last few

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years but in the last year. Some of your staff think that is because of

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the delayed reaction of reducing stop and search. Is that plausible

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as an account as to why knife crime is rising? We're not sure, nobody

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can prove exactly what has happened but I think there are two reasons.

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As I took over I instigated a gang command, I thought there was a gang

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problem in London and I believe there was and still is. We targeted

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the gangs and put a lot of them away, we put in prison about 1500

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people. And of course they came out. The second thing is, there is no

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doubt it's possible we got to love with stop and search, 70% is a big

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change. Interestingly, at the same time in New York, they went from

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about 1 million stop and searches to about 23,000, they went through the

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floor and lost the support of the public. I don't think we did. The

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reason I changed stop and search is because of the reason I mentioned,

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we were doing too many, 1.3 million is and what in the city of 8.4

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million at the time. Every four weeks for the last five and a half

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years I've had a public meeting in a different part of London and a lot

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of black families were coming to the meetings and complaining about the

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level of stop and search. I'm still doing those meetings but don't get

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the same complaints in the same way and people were acknowledge we are

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improving. There is a lot of concern about the calibre and competence of

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the police. You will know there have been all sorts of

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episodes and he would expect there to be some. I'm interested in what

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you think went wrong in this Stephen Port case, this is a Cereal Killer

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Cafe four bodies, it took four bodies to be found outside or in the

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vicinity of his own flat. He had spoken to the police about these

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things and other people said there is a gay serial killer out there and

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the police said, no, these are unrelated deaths all in the same

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cemetery. I think people are perplexed at how that sort of thing

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can happen. What is your theory as to where it goes wrong? Is that

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institutionalised homophobia, people are a bit dim, because police

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stations are not joined up? It is easy to say the police are a bit

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dim. I'm just asking you. It is quite often a thing, we don't mind,

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call as dim as you like, we get on with our job but in these cases, I

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can't say too much because the IPCC are investigating and I hope you

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understand that. If you go into the wider point as to what mistakes are

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happening at times and why don't we spot things, on the whole they get

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it right. Of the murders we get in London, which are relatively rare,

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in my time in the last five years murders are about 103 per year and

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in the preceding five years 130 per year, the detecting rate is 95%. My

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point is we get it right on the whole. Occasionally we will not spot

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patterns I don't think we should leap to a conclusion before

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examining each case. It looks intuitively as if we should have

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spotted it earlier but surely we need to look at it seriously. Some

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of the management have been involved in deploying resources to things on

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a colossal scale. People say it's because you're just responding to

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the whims of the politicians. Operation Elveden is one that is

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cited, plebgate is a very interesting one because you actually

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accessed some journalist's phone records in order to find out who the

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source of a leak was to a journalist at The Sun. As you look back, do you

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think accessing phone records for a story as inconsequential as

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plebgate, I'm not saying it wasn't consequential for the players but it

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wasn't a murder, lives were not at risk, this was not a terrorist thing

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and you used the RIPA. Police had conspired to remove a cabinet

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minister, that was fairly minor, wasn't it? That was the issue being

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dealt with. You thought it was appropriate to access journalist's

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records to find the source of the story to see who leaked it. That was

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found to be legal, eventually in the civil courts it was found it was a

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breach, in terms of the PC he gave an inaccurate account as to what was

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said at the gate. Operation Elveden was mentioned by one of the people

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talking. They fused together three different things, they confuse

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hacking with Elveden, Operation Weeting was hacking, that was what

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journalists did. Elton was the payments to officials. All of that

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was in the case and they looked at hacking. Elveden, people who are

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watching this will not remember, was where journalists paid public

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servants for private information. They paid significant amounts, in

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one case ?50,000. Soldiers, police officers. The people who received

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that money were all convicted with one exception of bribery and went to

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prison. The journalist with one exception were not convicted, you

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can only reach one conclusion. The people receiving the bribe committed

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an offence but the people who gave it to them did not. I can't explain

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that. Let me make one final point because you repeat the argument,

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this was quite a minor thing. The only recently got involved in that

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was because two committees of Parliament and an public inquiry. I

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didn't set of the inquiry but surely I would have been arrogant to have

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ignored the serious issues and we did put officers into it for the two

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operations mentioned. The blagging by journalists of private

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information, remember Gordon Brown was said to have information about

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his child taken from a GP. That is a serious issue. Yes, we put resources

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into it, we didn't disrupt the rest of London. Let me ask you a final

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question, your successor, two women are in the running. Do you think it

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will make a difference to the ethos, the culture, the way the Met

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operates to have a woman as the very senior police person in the country?

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In my five and a half years half of the management board including

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police officers are women. We have already had some senior women in the

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highest level at the Met. I would make that simple point because

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people don't always know it. In terms of who they pick, if you ask

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me what to do, always pick talent. OK? Pick the right person for the

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job, never pick second-best on the grounds of their gender, their race

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or anything else. Always go for talent, you will have a good next

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5-7 years. If you compromise and go for second best, why would you quiz

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like you are in danger of letting yourself get into a future that will

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be a compromise and I would always advise never to do that. We have to

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leave it there, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, thank you.

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Back in 2012, a young black American was shot and killed

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while walking through a gated community in Florida.

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His name was Trayvon Martin, and his killer was George Zimmerman,

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a white neighbourhood watch volunteer.

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Trayvon, who was only 17, was not armed, and his death led

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George Zimmerman was acquitted of murder, claiming

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It was an extraordinary case that first prompted

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Well, five years on, the parents of Trayvon Martin have

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written a book on the case, and Mark Urban has been

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It was the case that, for many, summed up the dysfunction

:15:51.:15:56.

of America's gun laws and the depth of its racial divide.

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Trayvon Martin, 17, African-American, unarmed,

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was shot as he walked through the Florida gated community

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The acquittal of George Zimmerman, the head of the community's

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neighbourhood watch, who'd claimed self-defence,

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The verdict sparked nationwide protests,

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and at the forefront of those, always, Trayvon's parents,

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Tracy Martin and Sabrina Fulton, who've spoken out about gun violence

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I met them both, and began by asking Tracy how quickly his son's

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death became caught up in America's racial politics.

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It became a racial issue fairly quick.

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Just looking at a lot of things on social media,

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even before the arrest, and how people had their own

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perception and how people, the country started getting divided

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And what was amazing was the fact that through all of this,

:16:57.:17:05.

we had a dead 17-year-old on the ground, and then you had

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supporters of the killer of our son raising money for him,

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just because it was a young African-American man that had

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And so, it definitely took a racial...a racial turn that

:17:19.:17:25.

Sabrina, when you start your portion of the book -

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you alternate chapters together - there are a couple of quotes

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there from the Scriptures, and I'm wondering how belief can

:17:37.:17:41.

survive an experience like the one you went through.

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One of the things I learned when I was real young is that

:17:48.:17:52.

when it rains on the outside, it rains on everybody.

:17:53.:17:56.

It just doesn't rain on the bad people, or it just doesn't

:17:57.:18:00.

rain on the good people, it rains on everybody.

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And so we have to understand that, we may not understand why tragedy

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occurs in your life, but God has a different

:18:09.:18:10.

plan, and we might not understand those things.

:18:11.:18:12.

And so, I think that my strong faith in God and knowing that

:18:13.:18:15.

Trayvon is in heaven, it kind of gives me peace within.

:18:16.:18:24.

One of the things that happened in the aftermath was the emergence

:18:25.:18:27.

of the Black Lives Matter movement, wasn't it?

:18:28.:18:31.

It came to fruition after Trayvon's death, and that was attributed

:18:32.:18:42.

to African-Americans just being tired of being

:18:43.:18:46.

Black lives are the ones that are getting shot

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in the vehicles with your hands up, with your kid in the car,

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or getting choked out by the police, or getting shot at at a convenience

:18:58.:19:00.

store because you're playing your music too loud.

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These are the lives that are being taken.

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And so, the plea, the cry, is, listen, our lives

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matter just as much as any other nationality lives.

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And so, I think because of the acquittal, the injustices that

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You know, it was a spark, it was a new beginning

:19:23.:19:31.

How do you think you push it forward now?

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Because you're campaigning, and we see that even

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President Obama, with all the things that happened, from Trayvon,

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to Sandy Hook and all the other things, couldn't bring about a big

:19:49.:19:51.

change in the gun culture in this country, so how do you convince

:19:52.:19:54.

people that this is not a hopeless struggle, that there IS something

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I mean, our kids are our future, so we have to have some kind of hope.

:19:58.:20:04.

We can't just give up and say, OK, well, that's the way this country

:20:05.:20:08.

is, and we're just going to leave it the way that it is.

:20:09.:20:11.

We've got to do the best that we can and try to make positive change.

:20:12.:20:17.

Tracy - you, like the rest of us, are watching the TV

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over the past year - what do you make of

:20:20.:20:22.

the Trump phenomenon, the election of this president?

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Watching everything that's been going on over the past years,

:20:26.:20:31.

it amazes me that you can say or do just about anything you want

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to do and then become the leader of the free world.

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And that just goes to show the mindset of this country,

:20:42.:20:46.

the division in this country, and it doesn't speak to reality.

:20:47.:20:50.

Because this isn't supposed to be a dictatorship,

:20:51.:20:54.

this is supposed to be a...equal rights community, it's supposed

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And I just don't think with this administration so far,

:20:58.:21:05.

with the things that they're doing, they're proving that to be true.

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I think that we did take a few steps back.

:21:09.:21:12.

I think even though we came a long way, as far as race and guns

:21:13.:21:16.

and education and everything, I think right now, we have

:21:17.:21:21.

It's five years since Trayvon was shot - where do you think we'll

:21:22.:21:27.

Well, we're certainly looking at public office,

:21:28.:21:35.

we're looking at our local government, to see how...

:21:36.:21:40.

See which position that we'll be most beneficial to,

:21:41.:21:44.

and how we can bring about change in our communities, how we can bring

:21:45.:21:47.

about change in the states, and how we can bring about change

:21:48.:21:50.

We understand that in order to make change, you have to be

:21:51.:21:55.

And no position is too small to look into, because it IS the small

:21:56.:22:04.

These are the best of times and the worst of times for House

:22:05.:22:18.

Hailed by some as a hero for his stance on Donald Trump on Monday -

:22:19.:22:25.

remember he said he was against the new President addressing

:22:26.:22:28.

Parliament - he finds a motion of no-confidence has been put down

:22:29.:22:30.

Our political editor, Nick Watt, is with me.

:22:31.:22:37.

Before we talk about the Speaker, Labour reshuffle this afternoon,

:22:38.:22:43.

what do you make of it? Well, Trotsky was of course associated

:22:44.:22:46.

with the concept of permanent revolution, and Jeremy Corbyn now

:22:47.:22:51.

seems to be associated with the concept of the permanent reshuffle.

:22:52.:22:55.

Late this afternoon, he carried out his umpteenth reshuffle to fill the

:22:56.:23:00.

Cabinet places which had vacated by those who felt they had to leave

:23:01.:23:07.

because of Brexit. The position of shadow chief secretary is one to

:23:08.:23:11.

note. Jeremy Corbyn regards her as one of the rising stars of the 2015

:23:12.:23:16.

intake. Right, this motion of no confidence in the Speaker, is it

:23:17.:23:23.

going anywhere? Well, the former Africa minister has tabled this

:23:24.:23:26.

motion. He has done it in the form of an early day motion. David Davis

:23:27.:23:34.

once famously said that an EDM stands for extremely dangerous

:23:35.:23:40.

member, but there are MPs who say, 0 and this has been tabled in a way

:23:41.:23:43.

that means that it will have to be debated. There are other MPs who are

:23:44.:23:47.

saying, no, this is a bunch of Tory MPs who are doing the Government's

:23:48.:23:53.

bidding, they have never accepted John Bercow, they don't like the way

:23:54.:23:56.

he holds the Government to account and so they are pushing it this way.

:23:57.:24:00.

I think in government circles, they're saying that if this EDM were

:24:01.:24:05.

signed by about 30 MPs, or about 5%, it might have an impact. What I'm

:24:06.:24:12.

hearing from the Tory MPs who do support John Berkey is, they feel

:24:13.:24:15.

that he did cross a line when he effectively unilaterally vetoed a

:24:16.:24:21.

visit from Donald Trump to speak to Parliament, I am hearing a note of

:24:22.:24:26.

defiance firstly, they are saying, if MPs got rid of John Bercow, they

:24:27.:24:30.

would be telling the world that they are aligning themselves with Donald

:24:31.:24:33.

Trump. And the second thing I'm hearing is that he will abide by his

:24:34.:24:37.

commitment to serve nine years, which would end in June next year.

:24:38.:24:42.

But that might slip six months or so into early 2019.

:24:43.:24:46.

I'm now joined from Leeds by Alec Shelbrooke, a Conservative

:24:47.:24:48.

MP who says he will support the motion of no

:24:49.:24:51.

In Glasgow, we have the SNP's Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh,

:24:52.:24:54.

Good evening to you. Alec Shelbrooke, what is wrong with him?

:24:55.:25:08.

We feel that it was very unfortunate for the Speaker to involve himself

:25:09.:25:12.

in a political debate. I want to get it absolutely clear, I do not

:25:13.:25:17.

support all the policies of Donald Trump, I certainly do not like his

:25:18.:25:21.

attitude and reported comments and alleged assaults towards women, I

:25:22.:25:25.

want to get that on the record. However I think the Speaker must

:25:26.:25:31.

stay above the political argument. Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh and myself will

:25:32.:25:36.

have a political debate in a moment. That is the debate of politicians,

:25:37.:25:39.

the Speaker should remain independent of those debates.

:25:40.:25:42.

Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh, do you agree that it is about whether or not the

:25:43.:25:46.

Speaker should express an opinion on Donald Trump, which is the debate?

:25:47.:25:52.

First of all, he was speaking in response to a point of order made in

:25:53.:25:56.

relation to the president. I think in response to early day motions, in

:25:57.:26:01.

fact, the most popular EDM signed since the start of the year is the

:26:02.:26:05.

one which supports the position of the Speaker. I believe he was

:26:06.:26:10.

perfectly within his right to give his opinion. I cannot help but think

:26:11.:26:14.

there is an alternative agenda at play here. Increasingly we are

:26:15.:26:18.

seeing in the House of Commons this kind of playground politics,

:26:19.:26:23.

bullyboys tactics and wanting a Speaker to be politicised as they

:26:24.:26:28.

want to replace him with someone of the opposite view. We are kind of

:26:29.:26:32.

fed up of this in the chamber. I do not agree with the Speaker on

:26:33.:26:36.

everything, but certainly we can say we have a Speaker who is

:26:37.:26:40.

pro-equality, he deals with men and women in equal measure, he will try

:26:41.:26:45.

and take points of order from us when we have protests to make about

:26:46.:26:50.

things which are being done in the chamber, and also he shows a quality

:26:51.:26:56.

towards disabled people and people of ethnic minorities. So this is a

:26:57.:26:59.

modernising Speaker. It has been said recently that some people have

:27:00.:27:03.

an objection to a modernising Speaker, well, I think we have to go

:27:04.:27:08.

into the 21st century, and get away from what seems to be a Hogwarts

:27:09.:27:12.

type of debating society. Can you come back on that, Alec Shelbrooke?

:27:13.:27:18.

As I say, I think it is important that the Speaker does not give a

:27:19.:27:24.

political view. As a Speaker, do you think he's a good Speaker, apart

:27:25.:27:27.

from that one transgression which you believe he made? Well, there are

:27:28.:27:34.

many positives to the Speaker. As I understand it, when there were

:27:35.:27:39.

statements and urgent questions in the past, not every backbencher was

:27:40.:27:43.

entitled to get in, and he does certainly do that. But he has let

:27:44.:27:48.

himself down in other areas, by appearing not to be independent of

:27:49.:27:53.

what is a hypothetical question, given that an application has not

:27:54.:27:58.

been made. I do think that he does some good things when he takes the

:27:59.:28:02.

points of order, and I support Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh when she made

:28:03.:28:05.

the point of order about the language which was used. I was in

:28:06.:28:09.

for the point of order but I did not actually hear the actual thing

:28:10.:28:14.

itself. Let's not get away from the fact that the Speaker renounces a

:28:15.:28:18.

political party when he becomes Speaker and is supposed to be

:28:19.:28:21.

respected and trusted on both sides of the house, so that he can

:28:22.:28:25.

independently chaired debates. This was a step over the line which has

:28:26.:28:29.

called into question his independence the Government Tasmina

:28:30.:28:32.

Ahmed-Sheikh, talk is true this Nicholas Soames incident, so, you

:28:33.:28:36.

were talking in the House and you heard him making barking noises in

:28:37.:28:42.

the background, which you then reported, you asked John Bercow to

:28:43.:28:46.

rule on that, and did he deal with it well? Yes. I made him aware that

:28:47.:28:51.

I wanted to make a point of order in relation to this behaviour, and I

:28:52.:28:54.

afforded Nicholas Soames the courtesy but she does not afford me

:28:55.:28:58.

in the chamber by passing him a note to let him know that he could be in

:28:59.:29:02.

the chamber to defend himself if he wanted to. The Speaker brought the

:29:03.:29:05.

issue to the forefront and Nicholas Soames said, if I was offended, he

:29:06.:29:10.

was sorry. Quite why I would not be offended by somebody making barking

:29:11.:29:13.

noises is beyond my comprehension. And the Speaker said that that would

:29:14.:29:18.

be the matter, for now. It's demonstrated that he was not

:29:19.:29:22.

prepared to put up with any kind of sexism in the chamber. I do not

:29:23.:29:28.

accept suggestions that the Speaker is criticising... He was responding

:29:29.:29:34.

to a point of order. Let's think about who has addressed Westminster

:29:35.:29:39.

Hall in the past. President Barack Obama, Pope, Nelson Mandela. For

:29:40.:29:43.

there to be a suggestion that at any point, certainly not now, president

:29:44.:29:47.

dump in any way represented a leader who should be afforded that honour,

:29:48.:29:52.

certainly it does not sit well with me and many colleagues across the

:29:53.:29:55.

House. Alec Shelbrooke, I know you want to come back on that, but I

:29:56.:29:59.

want to ask you, is this going anywhere? It seems that this will

:30:00.:30:03.

not be a time for the House of Commons to have a big fight over the

:30:04.:30:07.

Speaker, when there is a lot going on in the world. What would you

:30:08.:30:11.

count as a successful number of signatories to your motion? I do not

:30:12.:30:16.

want to put a number on it. I think it is interesting to see how people

:30:17.:30:24.

feel. There are certainly talk in the lobbies of people who felt that

:30:25.:30:28.

this had gone too far. I accept many of the things that Tasmina has said

:30:29.:30:33.

about the way the Speaker handles points of order etc. But the point

:30:34.:30:40.

is, you cannot politicised the office of Speaker, and it is a

:30:41.:30:45.

political point which was made. I'm sure we will have much common ground

:30:46.:30:48.

if we debate the rights and wrongs of Donald Trump.

:30:49.:30:50.

# You'll know this is our column spot

:30:51.:30:51.

- two minutes for a guest Tonight, the turn of

:30:52.:30:57.

journalist Nabila Ramdani. In an age of Brexit

:30:58.:31:01.

and Trump plenty of people are predicting that

:31:02.:31:12.

Marine Le Pen will become They present her as a breath

:31:13.:31:15.

of fresh air, another straight-talking populist

:31:16.:31:21.

who will return power to the people I've grown up listening

:31:22.:31:24.

to Le Pen's poisonous discourse and I'm not prepared

:31:25.:31:27.

to swallow the PR spin. Banding Brexit, Trump

:31:28.:31:30.

and Le Pen together is I predicted a Trump

:31:31.:31:32.

win because he had In contrast, Le Pen's power base

:31:33.:31:36.

is in small town councils. If anything she's more

:31:37.:31:45.

like Hillary Clinton. She's been knocking around

:31:46.:31:49.

for decades and owes Beyond the media myth,

:31:50.:31:50.

let's consider these hard facts. Marine Le Pen can't win

:31:51.:31:58.

a parliamentary seat Her party, the Front National,

:31:59.:32:00.

currently has two MPs. She's not an outsider

:32:01.:32:06.

but an immensely wealthy The truth is, the FN

:32:07.:32:15.

is a protest party. It often does well in first rounds

:32:16.:32:19.

and then collapses in the Nabila Ramdani's views night. I hope

:32:20.:33:30.

you saw the nationwide logo pop up in the middle of that.

:33:31.:33:32.

And we'll be bringing you other perspectives

:33:33.:33:34.

There is an existential struggle that plays out in various

:33:35.:33:38.

impoverished parts of the world between endangered species

:33:39.:33:40.

Most of us, I suspect, are on the side of the animals,

:33:41.:33:48.

believing that other work should be found for the people.

:33:49.:33:50.

But how far should we go to stop poaching?

:33:51.:33:52.

It's a question raised in India at the moment,

:33:53.:33:54.

where one of the great national parks is taking an extreme approach

:33:55.:33:57.

When I say extreme, dozens of people have been killed and maimed,

:33:58.:34:01.

and there are even allegations of villagers being tortured.

:34:02.:34:04.

The international conservation charities that work

:34:05.:34:05.

The BBC's South Asia correspondent Justin Rowlatt reports.

:34:06.:34:13.

Kaziranga is a triumph of wildlife conservation.

:34:14.:34:24.

There were just a handful of Indian rhinos here a

:34:25.:34:26.

Now there are more than 2400, two thirds of the world

:34:27.:34:30.

Wills and Kate paid a visit on their Indian tour.

:34:31.:34:36.

The local people say they're paying a

:34:37.:34:37.

July last year and a seven-year-old boy is rushed to hospital.

:34:38.:34:48.

TRANSLATION: The forest gods were shouting

:34:49.:34:58.

Then the forest gods suddenly shot me.

:34:59.:35:05.

What is the condition of the wound now?

:35:06.:35:10.

Akash's father explains how the hospital tried to graft muscle

:35:11.:35:12.

Akash will never walk properly again.

:35:13.:35:27.

The park says it was a terrible mistake and paid his

:35:28.:35:29.

medical bills and $3000 compensation.

:35:30.:35:34.

There was an outcry with hundreds protesting at the

:35:35.:35:36.

mounting toll of death and injury in the park.

:35:37.:35:42.

The issue is the park's ruthless anti-poaching strategy.

:35:43.:35:48.

Oh, yes, there's a rhino just next to us.

:35:49.:36:00.

Park rangers have been given extraordinary powers to protect

:36:01.:36:04.

Whenever you see the poachers or any people during

:36:05.:36:08.

night time we are ordered to shoot them.

:36:09.:36:12.

The park says the right to shoot and kill is essential to

:36:13.:36:15.

At first we have to warn them who are you.

:36:16.:36:23.

If they resort to firing then we have to

:36:24.:36:25.

First we try to arrest them so that we get the information,

:36:26.:36:31.

what is their linkages, who are others in the gang.

:36:32.:36:35.

He says the scale of the poaching menace

:36:36.:36:37.

justifies an uncompromising approach.

:36:38.:36:41.

But 50 people have been killed in the past three years alone.

:36:42.:36:48.

In 2015 more people were shot dead in the park than rhinos.

:36:49.:36:51.

And in the communities around Kaziranga there is growing disquiet.

:36:52.:36:59.

This is one of many tribal groups that have

:37:00.:37:06.

lived in or alongside the forest for centuries.

:37:07.:37:08.

So look at this, this is the village road and

:37:09.:37:12.

just over here is the National Park full of all those wild animals.

:37:13.:37:15.

There are no fences, no signs, and if I was to step

:37:16.:37:19.

across and into it there is a real danger that I could be shot.

:37:20.:37:27.

His parents believe their son, who had severe learning

:37:28.:37:32.

difficulties, was looking for a missing cow when he mistakenly

:37:33.:37:35.

crossed into the park in December 2013.

:37:36.:37:38.

TRANSLATION: My son was shot in the chest by park rangers.

:37:39.:37:40.

I don't know whether they used an axe or

:37:41.:37:46.

The park says guards fired when he did not respond to

:37:47.:37:55.

TRANSLATION: I haven't filed a court case.

:37:56.:37:59.

I don't know anything about how the law works.

:38:00.:38:06.

These guards are preparing an ambush.

:38:07.:38:21.

Kaziranga explains the high death toll saying poachers die in

:38:22.:38:23.

Now, firm figures are hard to come by but according to

:38:24.:38:28.

the reports we can find just one park guard has been killed by

:38:29.:38:31.

Compare that to be more than 100 people shot dead by guards

:38:32.:38:39.

The park is being run with utmost brutality.

:38:40.:38:42.

There's no jury, no judge, there's no

:38:43.:38:49.

questioning and the terrifying thing is that there are plans to roll out

:38:50.:38:52.

this shoot on sight policy across the whole of India.

:38:53.:38:55.

She says some of the world's biggest animal

:38:56.:38:58.

conservation charities are turning a blind eye, including the World

:38:59.:39:00.

It has funded combat and ambush training for Kaziranga's

:39:01.:39:07.

guards and provided specialist equipment, including

:39:08.:39:09.

Well, you know, the thing is, killing people, nobody is

:39:10.:39:16.

comfortable with killing people, right.

:39:17.:39:21.

What is needed is on ground protection.

:39:22.:39:24.

This trade has to stop if the poaching has to stop.

:39:25.:39:27.

Yes, so that has to stop if poaching has to stop.

:39:28.:39:32.

What do you think your donors would feel about

:39:33.:39:37.

WWF's involvement with a park which is involved in killing dozens

:39:38.:39:48.

and dozens of people, with maiming people.

:39:49.:39:50.

We want the whole thing is to reduce.

:39:51.:39:54.

We don't want poaching to happen and the idea is to reduce

:39:55.:39:57.

It's not just the Kaziranga authorities

:39:58.:39:59.

but also the enforcement agencies, also the local people.

:40:00.:40:01.

So I think the main thing is to work with the

:40:02.:40:04.

But it isn't only Kaziranga's anti-poaching strategy

:40:05.:40:07.

The park plans to double in size and an

:40:08.:40:12.

The first villages were cleared in September.

:40:13.:40:20.

The police respond, first with tear gas,

:40:21.:40:32.

My husband was the only person I had.

:40:33.:40:59.

I wanted to take his body away but they beat me up

:41:00.:41:02.

and didn't allow me to take his body so I had to run away.

:41:03.:41:10.

Diggers were brought in to destroy buildings.

:41:11.:41:18.

And the National Park provided a team of

:41:19.:41:22.

elephants that slowly and deliberately went through the

:41:23.:41:24.

Critics see the wrecked village as yet more evidence of an overly

:41:25.:41:40.

Of course, endangered species need preserving but is Kaziranga's

:41:41.:41:44.

strategy placing the welfare of wildlife too far above the welfare

:41:45.:41:52.

of the people we are told are best placed to protect it?

:41:53.:42:02.

Justin Rowlatt. If you want to see a longer version of that.

:42:03.:42:10.

Our World: Killing For Conservation is on the BBC News Channel at 9:30pm

:42:11.:42:13.

It will be available to watch later via BBC iPlayer

:42:14.:42:16.

If you Mr Trump news today, we haven't had that really, the latest

:42:17.:42:23.

that just broke is the US appeals court has upheld the suspension of

:42:24.:42:28.

the travel ban. The ban is still suspended. Otherwise that is all we

:42:29.:42:31.

have time for. MLE will be here tomorrow. Good night.

:42:32.:42:41.

Hello. It looks as though our cold theme continues for the rest of the

:42:42.:42:48.

week and there will continue to be showers as well coming in off the

:42:49.:42:54.

North Sea. Showers of rain primarily but further inland with a little bit

:42:55.:42:57.

of height there will be some snow. The best of the sunshine on Friday

:42:58.:43:01.

looks like it has been through Northern Ireland and bulk of

:43:02.:43:02.

Scotland,

:43:03.:43:03.