27/03/2017 Newsnight

Tonight on Newsnight - the former head of the Diplomatic

It's certain we won't have resolved everything in the period before

in the period before the expiry of the Article 50 process.

48 hours from now Article 50 will be triggered.

Two years after that, we'll be out of the EU picture.

I've been told that, on the contrary, Theresa May said

to Nicola Sturgeon that the whole Brexit negotiation would be done

Peter was most read fully frightened. He rushed all over the

garden looking for the Brexit. He ran straight into a messy tangle of

red tape. Will British farmers thrive

or die without Brussels As a fell farmer I can't

survive without subsidy. Are you African-American? I don't

understand the question. turned out to be white -

we have the UK television Racism is a lie, so how can you like

about a lie? Two days before Article 50

is finally triggered, Newsnight has been given

an exclusive insight into how the negotiations

with the EU will be conducted, by the former head of the Diplomatic

Service. Sir Simon Fraser -

who had key posts in both the European Commission

and the Foreign Office has told this programme that EU member countires

have so far been discplined and prevented from making

any meaningful pre He also confirmed it would NOT be

possible to agree all of the issues during the two year negotiation

period, and he foresaw the distinc possibility of political

and economic turbulence. We'll hear his interview with our

Diplomatic Editor Mark Urban in full in a moment -

but first to our political editor What are you hearing tonight? SNP

sources said that Theresa May told Nicola Sturgeon that the UK

Government is confident they can do an overall deal within 18 months. So

it means the future trading relationship. Number Ten doesn't

believe the future trading relationship can be done and dusted

them, it will need what it described as an implementation phase. But it

shows that the UK is accepting the timetable by the EU, which is a

Greek it by the autumn of 2018 so it can be fully ratified. But the EU

chief negotiator is saying, if you want to have that trade deal done at

the same time, even in that sort of a transitional outline, you have got

to get over two big hurdles, a greedy exit payment and secondly

agreed the status of EU nationals. What a word is there on those EU

payments? David Davis on question Time said the UK will not pay

anything like the 60 billion euros that is mentioned in Brussels, but

he did say, that the UK will meet its international obligations. That

is a big thing the EU has been saying, it means the UK will be

obliged to abide by its EU budget commitments that have been agreed by

all member states and the Twenty20, which means a third of the budget.

But David Davis also cited a recent House of Lords report and it said if

the UK leaves the EU without a deal, it will not, by law have to pay a

penny. He regards that as a great car to have in his back pocket.

Thank you very much. Our diplomatic editor

Mark Urban has been speaking to Sir Simon Fraser who until 2015

was the Foreign Office's He began by asking how successful

European leaders have been in holding the EU's 27 member states

to the same negotiating position. I think there has been a lot of

discipline. It came out of the commission first of all.

I don't think there has been a lot of informal

behind-the-scenes discussion of

That will happen once we formally triggered

How likely is it will get towards the end of that 18 month

period that the EU has set for reaching the initial

agreement with things resolved on some key issues?

I think personally it's certain we won't have resolved everything

in the period before the expiry of the Article 50 process.

As we know, the EU side want to start with negotiating

That's about money, it's about the rights of people living

It's probably also about the Borders, for example, in Ireland.

And the British side, on top of that, wants to move

rapidly to discuss the future relationship with both political

and economic between Britain and the EU and that is a very

There's no way, in my view, we are going to complete

all that in two years, which is why we are going to have

to think about transitional mechanisms, or what the British side

calls progressive implementation of new arrangements.

You've mentioned unity, so will the UK, do you think in that

period, be trying talk to the Poles or the Czechs, or whoever in order

to maybe offer them money for infrastructural things that make

deals with them on a bilateral basis, or try to change their

Can that work, or will the unity of the 27 remain

I think they will try to maintain that unity,

The British will of course talk to the different

member states in the EU and try to understand their position

and work on those positions and try to find ways of reaching

agreement and possibly, you know, catering for the interests

That's normal, but in the end, the UK has got to negotiate

with the EU as a whole through the EU's appointed

negotiator which will be essentially led by the commission.

And I think it will be a mistake to try and divide and rule

because I don't think that will work.

What are the chances of the UK ending up coming towards the end

of the Article 50 period without agreement in many areas,

as you've predicted and there being economic turbulence,

political turbulence, a very difficult end to this process?

What I don't think is possible to do in that time is go

through the whole negotiation for the future relationship.

So there is a risk, nevertheless, that this breaks down or we get

to an unsatisfactory outcome and there is political ill

will and turbulence, both political and economic.

I think it's in the interests of both sides to try to avoid that

and if we have unfinished business, to find agreement on a mechanism,

a smooth mechanism for moving forward through transition,

so that the unfinished stuff can continue to be negotiated thereafter

so the economic relations and political relationship can continue.

Two years ago a black human rights activist, Rachel Dolezal,

was outed as a white woman, born to white parents

A huge scandal erupted - why had this woman been trying to pass

She was pilloried by white and black communities simultaneously,

accused of cultural appropriation by some and of delusional

She maintains she never meant to hurt anyone,

she genuinely felt culturally and socially black and changed her

looks in subtle ways until others assumed she was.

In her long awaited book, In Full Colour, she rejects

the concept of race, calling it a political construct and says

We'll hear the exclusive broadcast interview she gave to me

This is Rachel Dolezal as a child, pale hair, fair skin, born to deeply

religious, authoritarian parents in rural Montana.

In her book, she describes a miserable childhood,

Once, she explains, she was even forced to eat her own cold vomit.

When she was an adolescent, her parents began adopting black babies,

four in all, which she looked after and adored.

As soon as she could, she headed to college in the deep

South, lived in a mixed community and began

to think of herself as black, modifying her

She worked for civil rights, gaining prestigious posts in

She had stopped trying to explain her race,

Then, one day, as local head of the NAACP, America's largest

giving an interview on their work when she was asked a question out of

Her life was then to change beyond recognition.

Treated as a pariah, vilified by both black and

white communities, she found herself fired from her job, unable to find

work, raising her children as a single parent on the bread line.

She felt black and to have said differently would have been to lie

A confused woman, product of a terrible infancy,

perhaps, literally desperate to escape her own skin?

Or the start of a bigger conversation about whether

people really can self define their own race?

I caught up with her in her home in Spokane, Washington state.

In terms of your own story, you write, "As soon as I was able to

make my exodus from the white world in which I was raised, I made a

headlong dash towards the black one", so it was a choice for you to

leave that white world and head to the black world?

Yeah, I definitely did not feel at home in

It felt foreign to me, and it felt uncomfortable

And it also felt oppressive, because I had to constantly mask and

subordinate and repress parts of myself in order to just, kind of,

You describe a pretty horrific childhood, one of

punishment and negligence and very little love?

Oftentimes, when I was being punished, I was left wondering what

I had really done to deserve that punishment because I felt like I had

just been being myself, you know, I had just been creative or

spontaneous or just dancing for doing something that I hadn't

spontaneous or just dancing or doing something that I hadn't

potentially been doing something wrong or evil or terrible.

It was just that I had stepped out of line.

I hadn't, you know, done what a girl should do.

And somehow, been immodest or sensual

And I had to be punished for that because I was

being raised to believe that the only goal for me in life

was to get married and bear children and be a

And as soon as you were able, you looked for a

college, that headlong dash towards the black world?

Was it then that your appearance started to change?

Did you become more aware of wanting to become more black physically?

Well, when I was in college, I was constantly comes you know,

Well, when I was in college, I was constantly, you know,

kind of trying to explain and defend who I was because a lot of people

saw me as either mixed or albino or white skinned black.

Whether or not I had braids, like, regardless of my

hairstyle, because I was in a black student union

and social justice which was not typical for white southerners to do.

So I was kind of glaringly not fitting the mould

And if somebody saw me and assumed I was black or mixed or

white skinned, it was more comfortable because it was a box

When you started ticking the box that said

black eventually, did you feel uncomfortable,

No, I mean, it didn't feel like a lie,

A true representation of who I am and what I stand for, because

even though race is a social construct, and in America, there is

a very clear colour line, there is a clear divide

and you have to take a side, I mean, I stand on the black

side of issues, philosophically, politically, socially, and for me to

not check the box, I felt like would be some sort of a betrayal.

Of not only of who I am but the community I

A lot of people might say, "I sympathise with

everything the black movement stand for.

In that case, people would be agreeing with

The idea of race is a lie so how can you lie about a lie?

The criticism that claim was that you were trying

to culturally appropriate a black experience that you could not have

had because you never lived through it.

What is your response to that criticism?

I understand that, given what was presented, I understand how

people can come up with those conclusions.

But I do feel like just because I didn't have a lived

experience, being seen by other people as a black girl, a black

young woman, for years of my life, I was seen as a white woman, as a

white girl, that doesn't mean that I didn't have any experiences.

I couldn't self define as Chinese just

because I had a passion for Chinese culture.

Well, I think to some extent, that's right because we

don't have a choice in how we are born and who we are.

And so, to embrace and fully open who we really

are, I think is something that we encourage

from children's movies, to the most inspirational books,

I think that we tell everybody, "Be who you are, be proud

be proud of who you are", and this is truly who I am.

But do you think you had a choice? Did you have a choice to be black?

I was born as who I am and that includes how I feel and also what I

And so I don't think I have a choice in that.

You have drawn parallels with the transgender

community, that you should be able to self define racially, in the way

that many trans people self define agenda.

that many trans people self define their gender.

Many other people have drawn those parallels, too.

I kind of have seen it as somewhat useful, just because

gender is understood, we have progressed, we have evolved

into understanding that gender is not

So you believe in the concept of transracial?

Well, I believe that the word transracial has become

socially useful in describing racial fluidity in identity.

Do you think, though, that the world will come

Or do you think you will always be viewed

as the pariah, the white woman who wanted to be black?

I don't think that is for me to hope for or predict.

I really don't know where we are headed.

Describe for us now what life is like, day-to-day?

You can't get a job. You don't have money.

Was that all as a result of this? Yeah, definitely.

It was as a result of me being discredited,

basically, called a liar and a fraud and a con and people

not trusting my work, not

just my identity but everything that I did, including my resume

Where was the worst criticism for you?

I would say that the biggest attack was from, of course,

the parents and the white media and the white police, the white

establishment at large really dealt the biggest blow, but the criticism

that hurt the worst was from the black community

because I still feel like that is home, for me.

And even if I had been evicted, pushed to the fringe,

some people don't see me as part of that group, it is still

where I feel like I fit and where I feel at home.

So that hurts, it is painful because I feel like there is

misunderstanding that I want to resolve.

If I could resolve one group's misunderstanding, it would

Rachel Dolezal, thank you. Thank you.

With me in the studio is Guilaine Kinouani

who is an equality consultant and writer, and Boyce Watkins,

You listen to that interview, what did you make of her? Firstly, just

to say it is the first time I have seen this interview, so lots of

emotions, feelings and questions. But perhaps the first thing to

establish is that what is called trans-racialism by Rachel Dunn zeal

encompasses three different groups, black women, trans women, and people

who find themselves at the intersection of the two, so I am

going to speak to it mainly as a black woman. There are various

problems with Rachel Dolezal's position. Comparing transgender

rhythm with transracial is -- transgender with transracial is a

fallacy, a force equivalency, which in my mind, does not advance our

understanding of race, of transgender issues, nor of black

womanhood. Stepping back for one moment from the transgender

relationship that she made with her own position, can you sympathise or

empathise with a woman who says she feels she has more in common, she

feels she is closer to being black than white? I can absolutely

empathise with her experience, particularly when it seems apparent

that she comes from a background of abuse and neglect and perhaps she

has come to associate whiteness with what might have happened in her

past, so I can empathise with that. However, where I remain sceptical is

in her inability to recognise and a knowledge her privilege as a white

woman being able to occupy or inhabit the lived experience of

black women. But even though, as you have just said, she did not have a

life of privilege, she was, you know, as she describes, abused,

punished and brought up in an authoritarian place, ostracised from

a white community, for wanting to be black as much as from a black

community who discovered she was white so why do you attach the idea

of privilege to her background? I attach the idea of privilege to have

a background for one main reason. The main reason is that she has

white skin. So while it is physical for her to don a little tan and

where some braids and pass as black, the reality is that for the

overwhelming majority of black people, we cannot occupy the lived

experience of white people. So the question to me I guess would be,

would a dark skinned Pakistani woman wearing a hijab claiming whiteness,

would that be a choice that society would accept? And I think a lot of

people share that perspective but when you say pass as, obviously you

describe it as if it is something she is trying to sort of pull the

wool over people's eyes. What she said in the interview and to me was

that she does not really believe in the idea of race. She thinks it is a

political construct... It is. Race was always set up to be a hierarchy

of power. Perhaps if you look at it from that perspective, then she is

right, isn't she? Who is to say that race has to be binary? I think this

is an interesting question and my position on this is that talking

about racism and talking about white supremacy, we need to look at what

has been done and reproduced over centuries. So we are talking about

white woman who seems to be quite oblivious to the fact that black

women's experience and bodies and creation has been appropriated, has

been... Even though she worked in black actors, even though she made

it her lives and works? Absolutely because there is a hierarchy of

blackness, so for example, her claiming blackness would shift

people's understanding, firstly of what it means to be black and

because of the privilege that she has been a white woman, what we

would have is that she would have the power of defining what blackness

is. We are coming to the end but let me ask you, she has been made a

pariah, ostracised, unable to get a job. Do you think she has become

something of a target? There are many people that you good a more

anger at than a woman who, as you say, and quite a traumatic childhood

and found herself, perhaps, on the wrong side of a confused argument.

Does she really deserved to be treated in quite such a, sort of,

vilified terms as she is today? I'm not sure whether I would agree with

the premise that she has been vilified. Certainly, she has been

called to account. What I would say is that she has also had a book

deal, so therefore, she has got some material gain from her experience.

From that perspective, I'm not sure whether it is fair to say she is a

pariah. She is someone who has had a book deal and has made a loss of

money out of her experience. Thank you for joining us.

The Russian government has rejected calls by the European Union

and the United States to release hundreds of people who have been

detained following Sunday's anti-government protests.

The nationwide demonstrations were the biggest show of defiance

since anti-government protests five years ago.

The man who represents Russia's most vocal opposition to Putin's

government is Alexei Navalny, and today he was jailed for 15 days

for resisting police orders, a punishment that will come

as little surprise to a man who has endured a year of house arrests

Joining me now, Edward Lucas, author of The New Cold War: Putin's Russia

Thank you for joining us. How important do these protests,

firstly, look to you? Is this a significant moment, a turning point?

I think they are commendable. I think Alexei Navalny and his young

supporters, many of whom have known no other Russian leader than

Vladimir Putin, deserve whatever support we can give them but I have

to say, I don't think at the moment they have the momentum that would be

needed to split the regime or topple it. Because of him? Does he seem to

you the right revolutionary figure, if such a one exists? I've met in a

couple of times and he's a very oppressive and forceful character. I

think he is not a great unifier although he has a strong fan base

but there are other people in the Russian opposition, particularly the

liberal wing, who worry that he is too nationalist. They also worry

that maybe he has got some connections somewhere with the

regime that he has been tolerated, to some extent, allowed to get away

with things where other people have been closed down and yet now he is

being closed down and he himself is imprisoned. I think there's a chance

that this escalate and ripples across Russia and turns into

something really big but we saw this movie five years ago with much

bigger protests in Moscow and the regime could squash those, and I

think they probably can do the same this time around. But he's been very

clever at redirecting this away from Putin personally and making it all

about corruption, bringing out the stamps on the notes and stuff, to

really sell a message that can have traction with the masses? Yes, and I

think that corruption is the regime's Achilles heel. If you go on

about democracy and human rights and freedom and so on, many Russians

look back to the 1990s and think, "We tied it at -- tried it and it

did not work", where is this gross corruption which involves hundreds

of thousands of acres of ground gunner ski slopes and duck ponds and

things, that really grates... It is always the duck pond that tips the

balance. Yes, steer clear of the docks, rulers but it is a good point

and by going for Medvedev, who is pretty unpopular, it is a good

tactical move and it is not impossible that Mr Putin would throw

his hapless Prime Minister overboard sometime this year. Said he is no

use any more, is that the sense you get? Medvedev was quite useful for

Putin of years ago when he wanted to step down as president briefly and

Medvedev, his sidekick, kept his seat in the Kremlin warm but he does

not really like Mr Medvedev and I think he would not feel any

compunction in serving him overboard and possibly saying he was shocked

to find there had been corruption going on and that would blunt the

edge of public anger, if these protests continue, or it may just

fizzle out. You can see the West squirming at these reactions now,

the protests, how far to get involved, what they can say, do they

show support? The West does not really have any power at all here,

does it? I think the West is one of the guilty parties here and this is

one of the things Alexei Navalny said to him when I asked if he was

Andy West, and he said of course because it is in the west that the

regime launders the money it has stolen from the Russian people. I

think the Scottish paper today has a splash on the front page saying that

Scottish banks laundered ?4 billion of dirty Russian money. So we do

sanctions but on the other hand...? We do sanctions which is good and I

wish we did more but until we crack down on the bankers and lawyers and

accountants who laundered tens of billions of dollars and cover-up the

beneficial ownership of companies and so on, they won't take us

seriously. There is a bill going through Parliament right now which

would give the government the ability to freeze the assets of

human rights abuses, so that is a glimmer of hope but we need to do a

great deal more. Thank you for joining us.

One of the most contentious issues around our membership of the EU

over the years has been the Common Agricultural Policy,

the subsidy payments given to farmers across Europe.

The British farming industry has a lot to lose with Brexit,

and farmers who depend on subsidies to survive will be relying

on the UK Government to help with the transition.

Our business editor, Naga Munchetty, and film-maker Stuart Denman,

To tell their story, they sought help from a familiar face.

Once upon a time, there were four little rabbits.

"Now, my dears", said old Mrs Rabbit one morning, "Don't go

He was put in a pie by Mrs MacGregor".

The words of Beatrix Potter, author of The Tale Of Peter Rabbit and many

In fact, it was her great success as an author which helped

By the time she died in 1943, she had 4000 acres, including 14

farms, and her home here, Hilltop, all of which she left

As a prominent farmer, we can only wonder what Potter

or maybe even her characters would have made of the EU,

Brexit and of course, the next, unwritten chapter

Whom should Peter meet but Mr MacGregor?

Peter was most dreadfully frightened.

He rushed all over the garden looking for the Brexit.

He ran straight into a messy tangle of red tape.

Beatrix Potter's farms can be found in the Lake District,

where resilience and innovation are as important as ever.

There are farmers in Scotland, in Wales, here in the Lake District,

John Watson is a tenant farmer at Yew Tree Farm,

He uses this to attract tourism to supplement his income.

Life is very uncertain at the moment.

What's happening with Brexit is going to have a huge,

I struggle, year in, year out, trying all different

forms of diversification, to try and bring money

in because I'm one of these idiots that actually loves farming.

I love being out in this beautiful countryside.

As a fell farmer, I cannot survive without subsidy.

The Common Agricultural Policy was designed to boost productivity.

Controversially, the subsidies are based on how much land is owned,

UK farmers received 3.1 billion euros last year.

Pickles ran the village shop and gave subsidies

While some people really liked Pickles' payments,

others got fed up with being told what to do and won't be dipping

So far, the UK Government has pledged to replace

Now, at the grassroots, including here in Exmoor,

farmers must consider carefully how to survive in a dramatically

It is being called the biggest farming conversation

Before the EU referendum, the industry was largely divided

but now it is united in looking for opportunities in

One question for the farmers who did vote Out is what is more

Nothing in this life is free and as we were discovering with EU

payments, they were asking for more and more for their free money.

The Miltons voted to leave the EU, with the young especially keen,

a different story perhaps to the national narrative,

which suggested that many younger Remainers were at odds

I listened to some of the next generation and they were saying,

And the only time opportunities arrive is when you have change.

The way I looked at Brexit was, what's the worst that could happen?

We would have to sell the farm because we couldn't make it pay.

But if you've got the right attitude, you will do

I don't think they are going to like me for this.

I don't want to kick older farmers out but I think there's a lot

The cap has kept them in a farm, when they probably should have let

The Miltons all feel the burden of red tape,

They hope that after Brexit, it will be better tailored

Is the government doing enough to support you?

No, there's a feeling not at the moment and I feel

the government has lost the focus on what the value of agriculture

In 1984, New Zealand's farming industry was transformed

when its government scrapped most subsidies.

Diversification and intensification were embraced

But there's also been criticism as many environmental

In the UK, farmers are responsible for environmental upkeep.

Upland and fell farmers look after hedgerows,

It is an expensive occupation to maintain hedges.

A cheaper alternative would be a wire fence.

No aesthetic value, no environmental value,

but like in New Zealand, practical, does the job,

And those responsibilities are for the benefit

So there's an expectation, if we are going to help you,

I'd like to think we could do without any subsidy all.

But that's, that's utter madness, really, if you want us to preserve

You can't destroy Exmoor because, as farmers,

But some environmental campaigners say that farmers are not doing

enough to justify the financial support they are asking for.

We see very, very low productivity, one sheep per hectare,

one sheep per two hectares, one sheep per five hectares, almost

nothing being produced and yet, almost no wildlife either

because sheep are a fully automated system for maximum

Let them loose in the hills and they nibble everything away.

I'm not talking about taking away all sheep.

I am just saying, let's stop paying for this damage.

In the middle of a lake, there was an island.

Twinkleberry and his squirrel friends visited the island,

"Will You favour us with work, gathering your apples and cabbages?

James Hook's Hatcheries produce a third of the

He voted Remain but he does not rely on subsidies.

Chicken and pig farmers don't get them.

We employ 2500 people across the country in

About 20% of those are coming from Europe, quite a lot

of Eastern European people and that has made a massive difference to our

I'm concerned that because of the devaluation of the pound,

that the money is now is not as good as it was.

And more importantly at all, will they be allowed to come in?

James has already closed two facilities because of a shortage

Will we have the labour to work on our farms?

Will our customers have the labour to work in factories?

Will we have the labour to help come and pluck the turkeys at Christmas?

Because if we haven't got it, we can't continue.

Tommy Brock was a short, bristly, fat, waddling badger.

Today, he was complaining bitterly about the scarcity of bananas

"I am quite sick of straight bananas!"

Membership of the EU spawned many a myth.

Now it is time to face the realities of leaving.

Ensuring food security is a priority.

Can enough be produced by UK farmers to feed the country affordably?

Peter Kendall is an arable farmer who owns 2000 acres in Bedfordshire

He voted to Remain and is now concerned

There's a real nervousness that too many, I think,

quite prominent politicians now, are advocating cheap food.

If they think they are going to scavenge the world

for the cheapest possible beef, lamb, grains, dairy products,

I think you could see the British countryside massively changed.

The environment would be damaged and we would

Article 50 will be triggered within days.

Farming, like other industries, will need to toil hard to be heard

during the government's negotiations.

Peter Rabbit has been brought into the 21st-century

and there's a desire for a new, shinier version of

Whether farmers voted for Brexit or not, leaving could offer

the industry the opportunity to make positive changes.

We need to move to a world where we are seen to be

entrepreneurial businessmen producing for the market,

but we do have that reputation of being paid to do nothing.

We've actually got a really short period to come up with a domestic

policy that understands what farming in the UK is all about.

They won't be throwing money at farmers any more.

I do love the old-fashioned ways of farming.

And that, dear viewers, looks like the end of our tale.

Naga Munchetty reporting, with a little help

Just before we go, we thought we would show you the Daily Mail front

page. That's it for the night, the winners of the world's biggest

photography awards are announced tomorrow.

Unless you're a Newsnight viewer, in which case you can see them now.