16/02/2017 Question Time


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16/02/2017

David Dimbleby chairs topical debate from Glasgow.


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And on our panel tonight we have the Conservative Party's

:00:00.:00:16.

only MP north of the border, who has been Secretary

:00:17.:00:19.

of State for Scotland since 2015, David Mundell.

:00:20.:00:24.

We have the former director of the human rights organisation

:00:25.:00:26.

Liberty, made a peer by Jeremy Corbyn and now his shadow

:00:27.:00:29.

The Deputy First Minister of Scotland, who's been

:00:30.:00:36.

in the Scottish parliament since it was created, John Swinney.

:00:37.:00:40.

The crime writer who backed Scottish independence in 2014 and voted

:00:41.:00:43.

for Remain in the EU referendum, Val McDermid.

:00:44.:00:48.

And once head of media for the Liberal Democrats,

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now leading the free market think tank the Institute

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of Economic Affairs, and a Brexiteer, Mark Littlewood.

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And as always, from home, or wherever you are watching

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Text 83981, if you want to do it that way.

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Push the red button to see what others are saying.

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Keep the debate going as the programme progresses.

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Let's have our first question from Lesley Turan, please.

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Should Scots have the right to a second independence referendum?

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Should the Scots have the right to a second independence referendum

:01:39.:01:40.

Shami Chakrabarti, as a non-Scot, what do you think?

:01:41.:01:46.

Well, obviously I'm a non-Scot, so I'm not going to determine

:01:47.:01:49.

what people in Scotland want for their future.

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But I personally think that referenda in general can be very,

:01:54.:01:57.

very divisive moments in a society's life.

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We saw that in Scotland, in my case from outside.

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Goodness me, we saw that all over the United Kingdom.

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You know, the toxicity of that campaigning, on both sides,

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families split and not speaking over it, communities divided over it.

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Are we really in the mood for yet another referendum?

:02:27.:02:30.

For a start, I don't entirely recognise your portrayal

:02:31.:02:41.

of what happened in Scotland during the last referendum.

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I personally know of no families that have been divided

:02:44.:02:51.

and don't speak to each other any more.

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I have friends who were on the other side of the argument from me.

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We've had many vigorous discussions, and we are still friends, we still

:02:58.:03:00.

Both on the EU one and on independence?

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Yes, but principally on independence, that is

:03:09.:03:10.

What we had was a media storm of whipping up a frenzy of hatred

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and anger that was not reflected on the ground.

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Yes, there were extremists on both sides who were vile,

:03:20.:03:22.

repulsively and insulting and demeaning, but they were a tiny

:03:23.:03:26.

But the overwhelming majority of people in this country

:03:27.:03:31.

were voting on something they were passionate about,

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and not in a narrow, tartan, shortbread way,

:03:34.:03:36.

but passionate about for the future of this country going forward.

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And Shami, you saw, in England presumably you are talking about,

:03:40.:03:42.

divisions on the EU referendum that separated and split

:03:43.:03:45.

I've been told by friends they went through periods of not

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We saw a spike in hate crime, certainly, south

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We lost a bright young Labour MP in a hate killing.

:03:56.:04:08.

I do believe that sometimes there's a constitutional moment and you have

:04:09.:04:15.

to have a referendum, but I don't think this

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should happen every year in a country or society's life.

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I think there are lots of other issues that are very important now

:04:24.:04:29.

to securing equality, justice, fairness, schools,

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We will deal with the referendum and Brexit.

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You, in the third row, sir, what do you think?

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I think the question really points to a significant change in what is

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The whole issue of whether we were better together in the UK, and then

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a short while after we enter into a referendum to exit the EU.

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And I think the question that we have to face

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and address in Scotland now is whether we are better

:04:59.:05:01.

in a Brexiting UK, or whether we should

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have the opportunity to form our own destiny in the EU.

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And that's the question we should be addressing.

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In my view, the way that the Brexit

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situation has been handled, it seems to me that it is a drifting

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situation, where no one really knows where we should be.

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Scotland has very decisively voted in favour of remaining in the EU,

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and that's where our destiny should be, and that's what we should

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Scotland has been let down by the situation and we need

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to speak up and argue for another referendum.

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Quite a lot of other people have been let down in that sense as well.

:05:44.:05:47.

London voted to remain, like Scotland did.

:05:48.:05:51.

With respect to London and other parts of England,

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what we shouldn't forget here is that Scotland

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Scotland is a country and London is a city, and there

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I suppose the question is, should Scotland have the right

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to a second referendum and if so, when would you have it?

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For me, Scotland has a right to determine her own

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And that's a very basic point of self-determination for me.

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The question that Lesley has highlighted is, and the fact

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that she mentions the 62% for Remain in Scotland,

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reinforces the point the gentleman has just made,

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that Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom very clearly

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are going in different directions in our thinking.

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And in that respect, I think people must be free

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to decide what is to be the future of our country.

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For our part, as a government, what we have tried to do

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since the referendum last June is to chart a course where we can

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respond to the decisions that people in Scotland have taken,

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the fact that we have argued for a different course.

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And to try to find a way forward with the UK

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And so far, we've got absolutely nowhere on that particular question.

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What concessions do you want made to Scotland that would fit

:07:12.:07:21.

in with that decision that was made by the UK?

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Or are you actually saying, we've got to get out of the UK?

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Are you frightened of having a referendum at the moment?

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The paper the Scottish Government published in December set out

:07:34.:07:39.

an approach whereby Scotland could retain our participation

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within the single market through membership of the European

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economic area, and that would see us maintaining our membership

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But Theresa May has slammed the door on that.

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She said we're coming out of the single market,

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we are all coming out of the single market, despite the fact that even

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many of the Leave campaigners were saying during the referendum,

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you don't have to leave the single market.

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She has voluntarily taken us to hard Brexit.

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So when are you going to have the referendum?

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We will pursue the negotiations we are having with the United Kingdom.

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But quite clearly, we've set out to the UK Government,

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if that does not get us to a satisfactory conclusion then

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the likelihood of a second independent referendum

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Do you agree with your former leader that the autumn of next year

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We will see what that produces but we have to look at the decisions

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the UK Government take and if we believe that is not

:08:36.:08:38.

producing an approach that will deliver for the people

:08:39.:08:40.

of Scotland, we have a right to take that issue to

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David Mundell, the Prime Minister said she wouldn't be triggering

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Article 50 until there's a UK approach and objectives

:08:49.:08:51.

It doesn't sound as if there is much of a UK approach here

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I'm disappointed to hear what John Swinney has had to say

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because he knows officials between the two governments

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are working all the time to look at how we can come

:09:03.:09:05.

I want us to have an agreed position, and if we take

:09:06.:09:12.

the Scottish Government's document, which I regard as a serious

:09:13.:09:15.

contribution to the debate, that document sets out a whole range

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of areas where we are actually in agreement.

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In agreement on areas like workers' rights,

:09:24.:09:25.

the status of EU citizens, in relation to criminal

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So there are a lot of areas in which we are in agreement.

:09:29.:09:35.

We want to ensure the status of EU citizens in the UK,

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and we want to ensure the status of British citizens in Europe.

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And that is a position on which I would have thought

:09:55.:09:58.

You have EU citizens who have absolutely no idea where they stand

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and are desperate for clarity and your government

:10:03.:10:04.

It's a very simple question to deliver.

:10:05.:10:13.

I'm not going to be lectured by somebody who was found out

:10:14.:10:16.

for delaying an announcement about the funding of European

:10:17.:10:19.

students so that it could be made at your party conference,

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rather than bringing certainty to those students.

:10:24.:10:27.

So don't lecture me on playing politics.

:10:28.:10:32.

I think the audience watching and this audience

:10:33.:10:37.

here would probably prefer it if you didn't play politics,

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I just ask you, where is the guarantee that the rights

:10:41.:10:47.

of EU citizens in the UK will be maintained?

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You've said it is up for negotiation and depends what happens in Europe.

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The Prime Minister has set out that it's a priority

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We want to be able to guarantee the rights of EU citizens,

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just as we want to be able to guarantee the rights of UK

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And on the issue of a referendum, if the SNP decide to go

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for a referendum, are you in favour of them having a referendum?

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My belief, as I have said many times, of course there could be

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The question is, should there be another independence referendum?

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And I am quite clear that the answer to that is decisively no.

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We had an independence referendum in in 2014.

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I don't quite share Val's perspective on it,

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although I welcome the fact that we had such an overwhelming

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There was a decisive result in that referendum.

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And now it is absolutely clear that the people of Scotland do not

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If John Swinney and Nicola Sturgeon are genuinely listening

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to the people of Scotland on their opinions about

:12:10.:12:12.

a referendum, they would take it off the table now.

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I just want to check one thing with you.

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The words of a senior figure in the cabinet, Michael Fallon,

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the Defence Secretary, when asked about this,

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whether there might be another, whether Westminster would allow

:12:29.:12:31.

My view is that the SNP should forget about having

:12:32.:12:40.

My question is if you agree with Michael Fallon.

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If the SNP asked for one, the Scottish Parliament ask for one,

:12:52.:12:54.

The position, and John Swinney knows this, is that the Westminster

:12:55.:13:00.

parliament would have to agree, because that is where

:13:01.:13:04.

the responsibility for the referendum lies.

:13:05.:13:08.

We haven't received a request to have another referendum,

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We must continue to argue that we should not have

:13:12.:13:15.

Mark, I'm going to bring you in the but I'd like to hear

:13:16.:13:20.

from other members of our audience since there are a lot of hands up.

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Let's hear your views, the woman in the third row.

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A lot of things have changed since the first referendum.

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A lot of people voted No because we were told our EU

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Also, I don't agree with the fact that you said it divided a country.

:13:36.:13:40.

That referendum sparked an interest in politics with a lot of young

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people and if you had ever been to a rally in George Square

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you would have seen thousands of people there camping peacefully.

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But if you watch the BBC News, you'd never have seen that

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And what's your view about another referendum?

:13:53.:13:56.

Shami hit the nail on the head when she said there's lots of other

:13:57.:14:15.

issues that have to be addressed in this country.

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However, that's exactly why there should be a second referendum.

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There's lots of issues in Scotland that have to be addressed

:14:21.:14:23.

and we are not being represented by the people in Westminster.

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We may have some difficult times in a short space

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of time with another referendum and there will be debate,

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but as Val has said, we will all come back to be friends.

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I have friends on the other side of the fence as well

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There is a bigger picture to look at here.

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We have things to address, problems to overcome and we can only

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do that if we've got control of our own destiny.

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Look, I think the lady nailed it in the third row over there.

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Almost the 2014 decision is moot because the constitutional framework

:15:07.:15:08.

that you undertoad prevailed then has changed enormously.

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In just over two years' time the Westminster Government will take

:15:12.:15:14.

us out of the European Union because, in aggregate,

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English votes and Welsh votes out trumps Scottish votes.

:15:18.:15:22.

The vote here was overwhelmingly to remain.

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Things have changed, I think that is a sensible reason

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The constitutional basis upon which you voted in 2014

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If you now wish to be a member of the European Union,

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you will have to leave the United Kingdom.

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That is the exact opposite of what was prevailing in 2014.

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Now, you've probably had, since the Act of Union of 1706,

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far too many people like me telling you what you should do.

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So I'm not going to tell you what you should do,

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but I hope you'll take a little bit of friendly advice.

:15:58.:16:17.

This is the country of Adam Smith, David Hume, David Livingstone,

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JK Rowling, Sir Alex Ferguson - Val McDermid!

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And, you have the national income of a country like Portugal.

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You have the population of a country like like

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I see no reason whatsoever why Scotland can't take its own case

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Who shouted out, "no, you haven't" here?

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The 62% voted who remain is yesterday's news.

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It was yesterday's news on the 24th June last year.

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All those Labour voters, Conservative voters,

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Liberal Democrat voters all the people who were frightened

:17:01.:17:02.

into voting remain, these are most of the people also who voted no

:17:03.:17:05.

If they thought today that their votes were going to be

:17:06.:17:10.

hijacked as an excuse as a fundamental change for another

:17:11.:17:12.

Scottish referendum, they must rue the day

:17:13.:17:14.

We'll stick with this, but Louise White, let's

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just have your question, Louise because that rather

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adds to the dimensions of what we're talking about.

:17:47.:17:48.

Why do the SNP want to reclaim powers from Westminster only

:17:49.:17:52.

to hand them over to Brussels?

:17:53.:17:53.

I mean, I think if you do want to assert your independence it

:17:54.:18:01.

would be a little odd to throw off the dominance of the Westminster

:18:02.:18:04.

Parliament and then to immediately reshackle yourself

:18:05.:18:06.

to the European Union, but there are some differences.

:18:07.:18:08.

The Westminster Parliament controls a considerable degree more

:18:09.:18:10.

of your tax and spending than the European Union does.

:18:11.:18:12.

The European Union, were you to leave the UK and rejoin,

:18:13.:18:15.

would control a large amount of your regulation, but not as much

:18:16.:18:18.

A good number of countries, it wouldn't be my voice

:18:19.:18:22.

to John Swinney or the SNP, but a good number of countries,

:18:23.:18:24.

about the size of Scotland are, I think, broadly independent

:18:25.:18:27.

countries and have decided to be members of the European Union it.

:18:28.:18:30.

Well, I think while the decision to go into this rock hard Brexit

:18:31.:18:37.

maybe the trigger for us to move towards another referendum,

:18:38.:18:39.

it won't be what the referendum is actually about because,

:18:40.:18:43.

at this point, we can't predict what the EU is going to be

:18:44.:18:46.

The EU is clearly in a state of flux at the moment.

:18:47.:18:51.

We don't know what's going to happen in the French elections.

:18:52.:18:53.

We don't know if Mrs Merkel will continue to be German Chancellor.

:18:54.:18:56.

We cannot know what it will be like at the point where,

:18:57.:18:59.

if there is going to be another referendum, that happens.

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So that's a moot point at the moment.

:19:03.:19:04.

I don't know what we're going to be heading into in two years' time.

:19:05.:19:07.

Ultimately, it is about the future of Scotland and the decisions

:19:08.:19:10.

we make knowing what the options are instead of being told

:19:11.:19:13.

what the options are going to be and then discovering that we've

:19:14.:19:15.

If you think about it, a lot of Europeans don't

:19:16.:19:24.

want to stay in the European Union, what on earth are we doing joining

:19:25.:19:27.

There's two reasons that directly answer the lady's question.

:19:28.:19:35.

There are a whole range of independent countries have

:19:36.:19:38.

decided, voluntarily, to work together as part

:19:39.:19:53.

Some of them are small countries like Scotland,

:19:54.:19:57.

other of them are larger countries, but they all decide

:19:58.:20:00.

in their common interests to work together for mutual benefit

:20:01.:20:02.

The second reason is that, if we're part of the European Union,

:20:03.:20:06.

we have access to a market of 500 million people,

:20:07.:20:08.

which is ten times the market of the United Kingdom.

:20:09.:20:11.

It is a significant opportunity which is now going to be more

:20:12.:20:14.

difficult for us to access because of the decision

:20:15.:20:16.

So it's about making sure that we protect and assert

:20:17.:20:20.

the national interest of Scotland which can be best served

:20:21.:20:22.

by working with other countries for mutual benefit.

:20:23.:20:24.

David Mundell, do you see a conflict between seeking independence

:20:25.:20:27.

and then remaining or going back into the EU, whatever it would be?

:20:28.:20:30.

I'm almost staggered when the SNP make this point about the European

:20:31.:20:33.

market and how important it is to Scotland.

:20:34.:20:35.

The market in the rest of the UK is worth four

:20:36.:20:38.

times as much as all 27 other countries.

:20:39.:20:40.

It just seems to be capable of being disregarded

:20:41.:20:46.

If barriers are to be created between Scotland and the rest

:20:47.:20:55.

of the UK, that doesn't seem to matter.

:20:56.:20:57.

I'm grateful for John Swinney tonight clarifying that the SNP

:20:58.:21:03.

is in favour of EU membership because there's been some doubt

:21:04.:21:08.

lately because of some suggestion that it wouldn't actually be full EU

:21:09.:21:12.

membership because of course they have to take into account

:21:13.:21:20.

the 500,000 of their supporters who voted to leave the EU,

:21:21.:21:22.

and this idea that everyone in Scotland voted to remain,

:21:23.:21:25.

..the problem with all of that, David,

:21:26.:21:32.

is that the wishes of the people of Scotland were clearly expressed

:21:33.:21:35.

in the point that was made by the first question,

:21:36.:21:38.

where 62% voted in favour of remaining in the United Kingdom...

:21:39.:21:41.

Of the United Kingdom remaining in the EU,

:21:42.:21:51.

John, not of Scotland - and the key democratic point, David,

:21:52.:21:54.

in resolving this you're the only one who's voted for Brexit

:21:55.:21:57.

in the United Kingdom Parliament from Scotland, everyone else

:21:58.:21:59.

from Scotland has voted not to exit the European Union and that's

:22:00.:22:02.

a democratic absurdity for the people of Scotland.

:22:03.:22:04.

That is your complete disrespect for the one million people

:22:05.:22:06.

in Scotland who voted to leave the EU.

:22:07.:22:08.

I didn't agree with them, but I respected them.

:22:09.:22:10.

What about your lack of respect for the 62%,

:22:11.:22:14.

the overwhelming majority of our citizens and the 58 of the 59

:22:15.:22:16.

Scottish MPs that voted not to trigger Article 50

:22:17.:22:18.

as is the democratic right of those individuals.

:22:19.:22:20.

And the 2 million people, John, who voted to remain

:22:21.:22:23.

So, David Mundell, you're view is that despite the fact that

:22:24.:22:29.

an overwhelming majority of Scotland wanted to stay in the EU,

:22:30.:22:42.

given that the UK voted Brexit, they're

:22:43.:22:44.

better to stick with the UK that's it in the summary as your view?

:22:45.:22:47.

I believe that the arguments for Scotland remaining part

:22:48.:22:49.

of the United Kingdom are as strong today as they were when we voted

:22:50.:22:52.

You, sir, about the referendum and that and then we'll move

:22:53.:22:58.

You, sir, with the spectacles on and then up to you in the pink shirt.

:22:59.:23:03.

John, I was an SNP supporter, now we had a vote referendum

:23:04.:23:06.

So we moved on to Brexit, which the country voted,

:23:07.:23:10.

We're part of Britain, the country voted out, we're out.

:23:11.:23:13.

I want to come out of the European Union,

:23:14.:23:16.

And you, sir, in the pink shirt and then Shami, I'll come to you.

:23:17.:23:22.

I just generally think wouldn't it be better

:23:23.:23:37.

if we got our independence, we're not going to be able to stay

:23:38.:23:40.

in the EU by the time a referendum came about.

:23:41.:23:43.

Wouldn't it be a better position, from a Scotland centric point

:23:44.:23:45.

of view to be able to make choices about an ever-changing Europe

:23:46.:23:48.

at the time as opposed to deciding now we're in,

:23:49.:23:50.

Oh, no, I'm totally for independence, I think that puts

:23:51.:23:57.

us in a position to actually make decisions for ourself

:23:58.:23:59.

So you would leave the UK now in effect, if you could.

:24:00.:24:03.

The Brexit campaign never gave me any information

:24:04.:24:06.

at all with which to make a valuable choice, an informed

:24:07.:24:09.

I'm concerned about all sorts of things, but Brexit did

:24:10.:24:13.

I respect these long-term debates about nationhood that

:24:14.:24:24.

have happened in the UK, they happen in Scotland,

:24:25.:24:26.

but I think the immediate question, the immediate question,

:24:27.:24:30.

is what kind of Brexit there is going to be

:24:31.:24:33.

for the United Kingdom as it is currently constituted.

:24:34.:24:43.

We can be rowing with each other about in/out when that decision has

:24:44.:24:46.

been made or we can be holding Mrs May and her Government

:24:47.:24:49.

to account to make sure - It's going to be a hard Brexit.

:24:50.:24:52.

Labour's done so well on that so far.

:24:53.:24:54.

You've given the Conservative Government a blank cheque,

:24:55.:25:00.

No, we have not given them a blank cheque.

:25:01.:25:09.

They going to have to publish a white paper.

:25:10.:25:11.

They are going to have to report back to Parliament.

:25:12.:25:14.

You have colleagues in Parliament that no doubt have faith in.

:25:15.:25:16.

In the Bill that went through the House of Commons,

:25:17.:25:19.

not a single amendment from any party was accepted

:25:20.:25:21.

And the Labour Party voted at the final stage which opened up

:25:22.:25:26.

the floodgates for the Tories to do what they want.

:25:27.:25:28.

All right, let's hear about next week in the House of Lords.

:25:29.:25:32.

Next week, the Bill is coming to to the House of Lords

:25:33.:25:35.

and the House of Lords is very differently composed

:25:36.:25:37.

However, this debate was supposed to be

:25:38.:25:47.

about parliamentary sovereignty and there is an opportunity

:25:48.:25:49.

in the Lords to ensure that the Government is held

:25:50.:25:52.

to account account during these negotiations.

:25:53.:25:53.

OK, what are you going for in the Lords as a new Labour Baroness,

:25:54.:25:56.

The rolling of the 'R' is delightful and not a tiny bit sarcastic.

:25:57.:26:04.

How dare I, how dare I take my place at the table as well?

:26:05.:26:07.

What we need are greater safeguards about reporting.

:26:08.:26:09.

The Government has said that they will report back

:26:10.:26:11.

to Parliament, so surely they will have no problem

:26:12.:26:13.

with agreeing to amendments in the legislation itself

:26:14.:26:15.

I think it's also crucial that we fight for an amendment

:26:16.:26:23.

to the legislation to guarantee the rights of people who have lived

:26:24.:26:27.

and worked and formed families in this country over many years

:26:28.:26:36.

as a fundamental human rights issue they should be allowed to remain.

:26:37.:26:39.

Shami, are you saying that you will be able in,

:26:40.:26:41.

in the House of Lords, to get the process of negotiation

:26:42.:26:44.

checked, as it goes along, that there will be a vote,

:26:45.:26:47.

I believe that is the ambition of many peers of different

:26:48.:26:51.

That is the opportunity, that is the ambition of many

:26:52.:26:54.

I didn't mean to insult you by calling you "Baroness",

:26:55.:27:06.

You have every right to be a Baroness.

:27:07.:27:09.

But you don't need my permission, but I just wanted to make it clear

:27:10.:27:14.

Right, come on, let's get back to the subject.

:27:15.:27:17.

The woman there in the centre there, yes.

:27:18.:27:19.

I've got a message for David Mundell.

:27:20.:27:22.

I've just returned from Paris from the rugby and I was with people

:27:23.:27:24.

from Scotland, people from your constituency,

:27:25.:27:27.

farmers from Langham, farmers who voted to stay in the UK

:27:28.:27:30.

You could have knocked me down with a feather when they all said

:27:31.:27:39.

that they would vote this time for independence.

:27:40.:27:41.

The woman here, and then I'll go to you there and then to you.

:27:42.:27:50.

One thing that seems to be bandied around in the Brexit debate

:27:51.:27:54.

all the time is this idea of respecting the democratic

:27:55.:28:00.

will of the people, whether that be the remainers need to be quiet

:28:01.:28:04.

and get on with it or the Labour MPs of having to vote

:28:05.:28:13.

with Jeremy Corbyn in the Bill, but, and David Mundell, you yourself,

:28:14.:28:16.

admitted that you voted remain, yet you voted in the House

:28:17.:28:20.

of Commons to go through with the Brexit Bill,

:28:21.:28:30.

so by not adhering to listen to the 60%, 60% odd of Scots who did

:28:31.:28:34.

vote to remain in the UK, you're fundamentally

:28:35.:28:36.

disrespecting their democratic voice?

:28:37.:28:37.

I absolutely disagree with that perspective.

:28:38.:28:44.

As a democrat, we had a referendum in Scotland,

:28:45.:28:46.

the decision was to remain in the United Kingdom.

:28:47.:28:48.

If Scotland had voted to leave the United Kingdom,

:28:49.:28:51.

I would have respected that result and I would have done everything

:28:52.:28:54.

The United Kingdom, as a whole, voted to leave the EU,

:28:55.:29:04.

I respect that result and I'm doing everything that I can to make it

:29:05.:29:08.

a success for Scotland and the rest of the UK.

:29:09.:29:13.

It's always been my understanding that we live in a representative

:29:14.:29:17.

democracy, is it not therefore your obligation

:29:18.:29:21.

to represent the views of your constituents rather

:29:22.:29:23.

We're not going to get into a constitutional debate.

:29:24.:29:30.

A representative democracy means your representative decides

:29:31.:29:33.

and then in five years' time you decide whether you want

:29:34.:29:36.

that person to be your representative or not.

:29:37.:29:42.

Let's not get into Berkin territory here, let's

:29:43.:29:44.

have a comment from you, sir, and a comment from you.

:29:45.:29:47.

Then one or two other comments and then we'll move on.

:29:48.:29:49.

Well, David, what about respecting the 45% of people in Scotland that

:29:50.:30:03.

We see English votes for English laws brought in Westminster so how

:30:04.:30:07.

can the rest of the UK determine Scotland's future?

:30:08.:30:20.

Also on our Labour Lords' point, about the violence

:30:21.:30:22.

and the segregation in the first independence referendum that we had.

:30:23.:30:25.

As an English person, born there, unfortunately,

:30:26.:30:29.

Scotland's home to me, it always will be, I didn't

:30:30.:30:33.

I've got English family down south and they were pleased

:30:34.:30:38.

OK, the woman in the second row there, thank you for that.

:30:39.:30:43.

Just some comments please and then we must move on to other questions.

:30:44.:30:46.

We voted to stay in the United Kingdom, then

:30:47.:30:54.

we voted as a national, not as a Scottish region

:30:55.:30:59.

or country, we voted nationally in the EU referendum and the vote

:31:00.:31:02.

was to leave it and we just have to accept that,

:31:03.:31:04.

Don't ask the question, just say your view.

:31:05.:31:13.

Other people were extremely concerned about the amount

:31:14.:31:17.

the NHS relies on in terms of skilled EU workers.

:31:18.:31:23.

I know everybody wants to speak on this and I wish

:31:24.:31:28.

It is important to note that in terms of gross numbers

:31:29.:31:32.

significantly more people voted to stay in the United Kingdom

:31:33.:31:35.

than voted to remain in the European Union.

:31:36.:31:40.

And we've seen since the Brexit vote that the polls haven't shifted

:31:41.:31:43.

significantly to suggest there is a significant groundswell.

:31:44.:31:45.

The overall numbers seem to have stayed relatively still in Scotland

:31:46.:31:48.

in terms of who supports leaving the United Kingdom and remaining.

:31:49.:31:53.

There was an interesting point directed to John Swinney

:31:54.:31:55.

One of the key rules about joining is that your deficit cannot exceed

:31:56.:32:02.

3% of GDP and Scotland's is currently at 9.5%.

:32:03.:32:04.

People who voted Remain should just grit their teeth

:32:05.:32:16.

That is one of the problems with referendums, simplistic choices

:32:17.:32:25.

no, remain or leave, and have a more intelligent

:32:26.:32:41.

discussion because the country deserves a more intelligent

:32:42.:32:43.

Let's go on to some other questions because we are halfway

:32:44.:32:49.

through the programme and have quite a lot of questions.

:32:50.:32:52.

Just to say we are going to be in Stoke-on-Trent next week

:32:53.:32:55.

and that, of course, is the night the by-election

:32:56.:32:57.

at Stoke-on-Trent, and the week after we will be in Bedford.

:32:58.:32:59.

If you can come to Stoke-on-Trent or to Bedford, on screen

:33:00.:33:02.

is the e-mail address and our telephone number.

:33:03.:33:05.

You can call and apply to come and I will give

:33:06.:33:07.

Should the Scottish Government adopt the education reforms seen

:33:08.:33:15.

in England, in order to improve falling attainment levels?

:33:16.:33:17.

The question is about a report that Scottish pupils are trailing behind

:33:18.:33:20.

the performance of able pupils in England in most subject areas,

:33:21.:33:23.

So should you adopt reforms seen in England?

:33:24.:33:31.

Well, Scotland used to have an education system

:33:32.:33:33.

It was an education system that allowed someone like me,

:33:34.:33:41.

from a working-class background, to go at Oxford University.

:33:42.:33:43.

I think that in many respects the Scottish Government has let down

:33:44.:33:46.

We do have a serious problem with reaching

:33:47.:33:55.

educational attainment that we would all like to see.

:33:56.:33:58.

Steps are being taken to improve that, but I'm not necessarily

:33:59.:34:01.

convinced that going the way of the English curriculum

:34:02.:34:03.

I would like to see a curriculum that encourages children

:34:04.:34:11.

to be curious to learn, because they want to learn.

:34:12.:34:15.

That is not just about forcing down a narrow curriculum path,

:34:16.:34:17.

I would like to see us explore, perhaps in some respects a more

:34:18.:34:22.

traditional approach to learning, but that allows us to reassert

:34:23.:34:25.

ourselves as leaders in education in the world.

:34:26.:34:27.

Which you have a reputation for being.

:34:28.:34:31.

So this line about trailing behind the performance

:34:32.:34:40.

of able pupils in England, you don't agree that's the right way

:34:41.:34:43.

of measuring education success or ability?

:34:44.:34:45.

I don't know, because I am not an educationalist,

:34:46.:34:47.

But I do think we need to improve our attainment

:34:48.:34:51.

and I think the way to do it is not necessarily the way they have

:34:52.:34:54.

I have a son who is at school in England, and I think their focus

:34:55.:34:59.

is very narrowly curriculum based and it does not encourage people

:35:00.:35:02.

to think outside those narrow tramlines of,

:35:03.:35:03.

you have to follow the curriculum and do exactly what you have to do

:35:04.:35:07.

I would like to see a system that encourages people to be curious,

:35:08.:35:12.

encourages children to want to find out more.

:35:13.:35:15.

That certainly was what I experienced as a child

:35:16.:35:17.

John Swinney, you are Education Secretary in Scotland

:35:18.:35:25.

and you will have read this stuff from the Sutton Trust,

:35:26.:35:27.

that bright Scottish pupils are falling behind,

:35:28.:35:30.

and the OECD report that Scottish performance in maths,

:35:31.:35:32.

Is it to follow the reforms that have happened in England,

:35:33.:35:42.

The first thing to do is to acknowledge that we have

:35:43.:35:47.

to improve performance in Scottish education.

:35:48.:35:50.

I am not going to sit here and say there is not an issue that

:35:51.:35:54.

I think openly and honestly confronting that issue

:35:55.:35:57.

The First Minister has appointed me to lead that process

:35:58.:36:00.

in the Scottish Government and I have been doing that

:36:01.:36:03.

for the last nine months, and I am determined to make sure

:36:04.:36:06.

Val McDermid is correct that we need, for the modern world,

:36:07.:36:12.

to have a curriculum that enables young people to be curious

:36:13.:36:16.

and investigative, because they are going to have

:36:17.:36:18.

And if we look at the pace of change in the last

:36:19.:36:27.

10 years in our society, it's been a much more dramatic

:36:28.:36:30.

and aggressive pace of change than in the first ten years

:36:31.:36:32.

Do you accept there has been a slippage

:36:33.:36:35.

The statistics that came out before the turn of the year,

:36:36.:36:41.

the OECD statistics, they indicate that

:36:42.:36:43.

But that information was gathered in 2015.

:36:44.:36:52.

Since then, the Scottish Government has taken a number of steps

:36:53.:36:54.

to improve the performance of Scottish education.

:36:55.:36:57.

Just a couple of weeks ago, I put over ?120 million directly

:36:58.:37:02.

into schools to give headteachers much more control over

:37:03.:37:04.

the allocation of resources, to strengthen, to make choices

:37:05.:37:06.

about what will strengthen education and performance

:37:07.:37:08.

Jason, you suggested they should adopt the English system.

:37:09.:37:18.

Do you think that is the right answer?

:37:19.:37:21.

From what I gather, the free schools in England seem to have

:37:22.:37:24.

had some good results, especially in terms

:37:25.:37:26.

of improving attainment in economically deprived areas.

:37:27.:37:30.

John Swinney said, after the most recent figures came out,

:37:31.:37:33.

that we need radical change in Scottish education.

:37:34.:37:35.

I think the radical reform you need is for politicians to get out

:37:36.:37:46.

The curriculum needs to be set by teachers.

:37:47.:37:53.

If you are going to have a curriculum, make

:37:54.:37:59.

it one sentence long, "schools will teach maths, English,

:38:00.:38:02.

The problem we have got into both in Scotland and in England

:38:03.:38:05.

is being too prescriptive and making education a political football.

:38:06.:38:09.

John has got one hell of a task on his hands to improve

:38:10.:38:12.

I am glad he has admitted the numbers are disappointing even

:38:13.:38:16.

But I would say, don't necessarily adopt the English system.

:38:17.:38:20.

The Swedes have been considerably more radical in allowing freedom

:38:21.:38:23.

They have allowed some schools to be running on a for-profit basis.

:38:24.:38:31.

That has brought in schools, particularly

:38:32.:38:33.

You will find in England the free schools, typically,

:38:34.:38:41.

a broadbrush analysis, are in leafy suburbs with a rich

:38:42.:38:43.

You will not find so many popping up in deprived inner-city areas.

:38:44.:38:48.

If you embrace that in Scotland I think you would find

:38:49.:38:54.

the statistics actually improving over the next five years.

:38:55.:39:00.

Go for freedom for the teachers, allow teachers to teach, allow

:39:01.:39:03.

Whilst John Swinney may be well-intentioned,

:39:04.:39:07.

frankly we need politicians out of the way as the best way

:39:08.:39:10.

The current Scottish Government has recently reformed

:39:11.:39:15.

the curriculum for excellence, but it has resulted

:39:16.:39:19.

in no substantial change to the education system.

:39:20.:39:21.

We are still fully based on assessment driven criteria,

:39:22.:39:23.

No, but I am from a family of teachers.

:39:24.:39:33.

David Mundell, what do you make of the argument?

:39:34.:39:36.

I find the most shocking statistic not the comparison between Scotland

:39:37.:39:39.

and England but the comparison that if you are a bright child living

:39:40.:39:42.

in a poorer area in Scotland, you are two years behind the same

:39:43.:39:46.

child living in a more affluent area.

:39:47.:39:49.

I think that is a shocking indictment of the SNP's ten years

:39:50.:39:54.

The SNP have been responsible for education in Scotland for ten years.

:39:55.:40:06.

No interference from Westminster, fully devolved.

:40:07.:40:10.

And I say that the fundamental problem is, despite John's very

:40:11.:40:14.

plausible commitments, despite the fact that

:40:15.:40:19.

Nicola Sturgeon said last week that education was her absolute focus,

:40:20.:40:23.

it is quite clear, even from the discussion

:40:24.:40:24.

I think it's actually quite incredible that you can come on this

:40:25.:40:40.

programme as the only elected Conservative politician and talk

:40:41.:40:51.

about economically driven education, given the wasteland that has been

:40:52.:41:02.

created by the Conservatives and neoliberalism for

:41:03.:41:03.

I agree with everything that has been said about how troubling

:41:04.:41:10.

it is if Scottish children and the poorest in particular

:41:11.:41:12.

are falling behind, but I am not going to say it is all milk

:41:13.:41:16.

and honey south of the border either.

:41:17.:41:17.

I agree with lots of what Mark said about political footballs

:41:18.:41:20.

and how that has been going on in the education

:41:21.:41:23.

I agree with what was said about over testing,

:41:24.:41:27.

overprescription, where is the joy of learning and curiosity.

:41:28.:41:32.

But most of all, I am worried about the relationship between inequality

:41:33.:41:35.

If a child has not had breakfast, if a child has no books at home,

:41:36.:41:47.

how do you expect to have the most amazing educational opportunity?

:41:48.:41:50.

These things go hand-in-hand, and austerity is a massive problem,

:41:51.:41:54.

and inequality is a massive problem all over the United Kingdom.

:41:55.:42:04.

The idea that saying there has been no interference from Westminster is

:42:05.:42:16.

a farce because our budget has been cut and it is continually cut by

:42:17.:42:20.

Westminster. Lets get the facts on the table,

:42:21.:42:25.

that is completely incorrect. But the budget has been cut. The budget

:42:26.:42:34.

has... The Scottish Government has received more than they anticipated

:42:35.:42:38.

in the current financial year. Has it dropped or has it risen? It has

:42:39.:42:43.

risen, the amount of money the Scottish Government has received.

:42:44.:42:46.

The Scottish Government recently found hundreds of millions to do a

:42:47.:42:49.

deal with the Greens to get their budget through, so there is money if

:42:50.:42:53.

the Scottish Government wants to allocate it. A brief point, if you

:42:54.:43:03.

would. I was a maths teacher for 37 years and in that time I saw

:43:04.:43:05.

children dying from the stage where they came up from primary school,

:43:06.:43:10.

they were very numerous, two in recent years, I retired in October,

:43:11.:43:14.

and I was shocked at how children coming up from primary school had no

:43:15.:43:19.

number bonds, did not know their tables, knew nothing, because of

:43:20.:43:24.

curriculum for excellence. That has been the biggest negative we have

:43:25.:43:27.

had so far in Scotland. In a nutshell, what has happened in your

:43:28.:43:37.

20-year 's teaching? We moved away from basic numerous Ian Park skills,

:43:38.:43:41.

which if you do not have you cannot build on anything to teach maths.

:43:42.:43:45.

Even at university level, if you not understand fractions, you cannot do

:43:46.:43:52.

anything. The fundamentals are not being taught. Because children are

:43:53.:43:58.

being allowed to explore. Boxes are ticked, but nothing is reinforced

:43:59.:44:02.

and learned to the same extent. That is not all schools, but quite a lot

:44:03.:44:04.

of them. APPLAUSE

:44:05.:44:09.

It is not fair to ask you to be too brief, but if you could just

:44:10.:44:13.

summarise. We have heard a lot of complaints

:44:14.:44:18.

and points, particularly about the money spent. On the question of

:44:19.:44:23.

numerous E, David Mundell has let himself down because the Scottish

:44:24.:44:26.

Government budget has been cut dramatically since the Conservatives

:44:27.:44:30.

came to power. Has he forgotten about posterity? The second point is

:44:31.:44:37.

Shami's point about inequality. At the heart of the agenda we are

:44:38.:44:41.

taking forward is the need to close that attainment gap which has

:44:42.:44:45.

persisted in Scottish education for all of my adult life. It was there

:44:46.:44:49.

when I was a school pupil and it remains. We have set an ambitious

:44:50.:44:52.

target that in the course of this parliamentary term we will make

:44:53.:44:56.

significant progress towards closing that gap over the course of the next

:44:57.:45:02.

ten years. The final point is that the curriculum in Scotland was

:45:03.:45:06.

changed, yes, in the early part of this century, after a big national

:45:07.:45:09.

debate involving many educationalists. But at the heart of

:45:10.:45:14.

the curriculum, to reassure the lady is good and wrote, is literacy and

:45:15.:45:18.

numerous E and the health and well-being of our young people, and

:45:19.:45:23.

we must make sure they are equipped with those foundations to make sure

:45:24.:45:27.

they can take their life forward. We have to focus on that. We must go

:45:28.:45:33.

onto another question. I would like to get a couple more questions in.

:45:34.:45:49.

Barbara Pauly. Should the UK follow Trump's lead and treat Russia as a

:45:50.:45:59.

potential ally instead of an enemy? It's hard to work out what Donald

:46:00.:46:04.

Trump is doing. It's in chaos. My biggest fear about him is that he's

:46:05.:46:09.

a sexist, racist, fashionist or something else that would offend me

:46:10.:46:23.

it's chaos at the moment. We should engage with Russia. Back in the day

:46:24.:46:27.

we dealt with We certainly dealt with the mass

:46:28.:46:30.

mvurdering Leonid Brezhnev when he was running the Soviet

:46:31.:46:34.

union, we have to deal with the world as it is,

:46:35.:46:36.

not with the world as we would That means lines of communication

:46:37.:46:39.

to Putin, even for those of who you can't bear the new leader

:46:40.:46:51.

of the free world, lines of communication

:46:52.:46:54.

from the United Kingdom to Trump Don't embrace Vladimir Putin,

:46:55.:46:56.

but recognise that in the dangerous world in which we live,

:46:57.:47:00.

we have to do business with him. I don't think we need

:47:01.:47:03.

to embrace Donald Trump. I don't think we need to embrace

:47:04.:47:06.

Donald Trump either, but if this country,

:47:07.:47:08.

or even if the United Kingdom splits into two, believes that we can go

:47:09.:47:12.

round not recognising that Vladimir Putin is an important part

:47:13.:47:15.

on the stage and not recognising that Donald Trump is,

:47:16.:47:17.

then I'm afraid, our influence, be it English, Scottish or British,

:47:18.:47:20.

is going to wither. We have to keep lines

:47:21.:47:23.

of communication and decent relationships with these people

:47:24.:47:27.

however unpleasant you find them. If indeed Trump is treating

:47:28.:47:30.

Russia as a potential ally instead of an enemy,

:47:31.:47:47.

whatever that may mean. I do agree with Mark that I don't

:47:48.:47:49.

think any of us has a faintest idea of what Donald Trump is doing

:47:50.:47:53.

from one day to the next, I'm not sure how much sense he has

:47:54.:47:55.

of what he's going to do. He said, "I've nothing to do

:47:56.:47:59.

with Russia, I've no deals there. But his people certainly had

:48:00.:48:02.

dealings with Russia before he was elected and the promise

:48:03.:48:06.

to remove sanctions from Russia is not something that you would do

:48:07.:48:09.

without there being some kind of quid pro quo, I feel,

:48:10.:48:13.

in the world of real politics. To answer the question,

:48:14.:48:16.

I think Mark is right that we need to acknowledge that these

:48:17.:48:19.

people are there. But we do not embrace them

:48:20.:48:24.

as friends and allies when they completely eviscerate Any

:48:25.:48:32.

pretence of human rights When they treat their own people

:48:33.:48:34.

in ways we would not allow to happen within our borders,

:48:35.:48:38.

so I think we need to keep those lines of communication open,

:48:39.:48:41.

but we must always make it clear what our position is,

:48:42.:48:44.

particularly in relation to human rights and the way

:48:45.:48:45.

you treat your own population. I find any suggestion

:48:46.:48:48.

that we embrace Trump in anyway abhorrent due to this ban

:48:49.:48:56.

that he has had. We have Muslim citizens

:48:57.:49:02.

of our own and I imagine that they must feel insulted

:49:03.:49:05.

and offended that Theresa May went over there and played happy families

:49:06.:49:16.

with Trump when he's, quite clearly, been anti-Muslim in a way

:49:17.:49:19.

that is reminiscent Hitler, but just Well, a question that begins -

:49:20.:49:22.

should we follow President Trump's lead, is not a question I'm

:49:23.:49:28.

going to answer with a yes. However, I think both

:49:29.:49:31.

Val and Mark had a point about negotiating with people,

:49:32.:49:33.

but I think sometimes one needs to negotiate not from

:49:34.:49:36.

a position of having your hand-held or patted

:49:37.:49:38.

in the Oval Office, but from a position

:49:39.:49:44.

of dignity and strength and that would have to be the case with both

:49:45.:49:47.

of these men, to some extent. You said, Mark, that

:49:48.:49:52.

Trump being a racist or a fascist or a misogynist

:49:53.:49:56.

might offend your liberal It's not my liberal sensitivities

:49:57.:49:57.

that it offends, it's my human sensitivities and I think

:49:58.:50:05.

we should all share those. And those sensitivities are

:50:06.:50:10.

similarly offended by Mr Putin with his attitude to women

:50:11.:50:16.

and gay people and so... You don't consider either of them

:50:17.:50:18.

as bad as Hitler, do you? I mean, there is a lot of human

:50:19.:50:22.

rights abuse in the world, but we've got to put it

:50:23.:50:26.

in some kind of order. My recent experience is that it's

:50:27.:50:28.

not a great idea to be comparing people to Hitler,

:50:29.:50:31.

it's rarely helpful in conversation. Just compare him to

:50:32.:50:33.

the other 250 leaders I don't need to do -

:50:34.:50:35.

There's a lot of bad guys out there. I don't need to do that,

:50:36.:50:39.

I think the point is well made that it's a crazy world at the moment,

:50:40.:50:43.

but we do have to engage with Mr

:50:44.:50:45.

Trump and Mr Putin. But you were critical,

:50:46.:50:47.

unless I misheard you, of the Prime You said it ought to be conducted

:50:48.:50:50.

with dignity, are you suggesting I think it was really

:50:51.:50:54.

important that she went, but I think that the iconography

:50:55.:51:12.

of her having her having her I wouldn't like to see

:51:13.:51:17.

it with Putin, either! I'm absolutely clear

:51:18.:51:27.

that we can't have a business as usual relationship with Russia

:51:28.:51:29.

certainly as it currently conducts itself and we have to be very,

:51:30.:51:32.

very clear about that. Russia's behaviour in the Ukraine,

:51:33.:51:34.

Russia's behaviour even currently in Syria is totally

:51:35.:51:36.

unacceptable and we have to make But we do have to

:51:37.:51:39.

engage with Russia. Some of the most dangerous times

:51:40.:51:42.

in our world have been when there Likewise, with President

:51:43.:51:48.

Trump, he is the democratically-elected President

:51:49.:51:59.

of the United States and we have to We live in a country where,

:52:00.:52:01.

thankfully, we have a thriving democracy where people

:52:02.:52:05.

are able to express their views and opinions in relation

:52:06.:52:07.

to his policies and approach, and I encourage people

:52:08.:52:09.

to continue to do that. But the idea that we can't

:52:10.:52:11.

engage with him is I think the biggest

:52:12.:52:14.

problem that I think is emerging for people

:52:15.:52:18.

in a lot of the stuff that

:52:19.:52:19.

Donald Trump is talking about and expressing

:52:20.:52:22.

is that it's just far from clear

:52:23.:52:24.

what on earth he's doing or saying. a little bit of the press conference

:52:25.:52:34.

before I came to this discussion tonight, and I just

:52:35.:52:39.

couldn't fathom half of what President Trump

:52:40.:52:43.

was on about. Now, I think, in amongst all that,

:52:44.:52:49.

I worry that there might be a terrible naivete about dealing

:52:50.:52:52.

with very significant and sensitive and difficult issues on the

:52:53.:52:54.

international stage where wise, thoughtful caution is required to

:52:55.:52:57.

decide what's the right thing to do. I don't think wise, thoughtful

:52:58.:53:04.

caution are words that you would normally associate

:53:05.:53:07.

with Donald Trump. We want wise, thoughtful reaction

:53:08.:53:08.

to a completely different story. I find British foreign policy very

:53:09.:53:18.

intriguing because we don't like Russia because of their persecution

:53:19.:53:29.

of gay people, but we love Saudi Elizabeth Roddick, we just

:53:30.:53:32.

have time to fit this in, please. This is the report that came out

:53:33.:53:40.

this very week saying that vitamin D could spare people from

:53:41.:53:51.

getting colds and flu. particularly in places in Glasgow

:53:52.:53:54.

where you have shorter days and not much sunshine, vitamin D

:53:55.:54:06.

according to the professor fluoride was added to the water,

:54:07.:54:08.

as it is in the United States. I think it probably

:54:09.:54:12.

should in Glasgow where there is the well-known

:54:13.:54:16.

Glasgow effect because you have so You see, I live in the east

:54:17.:54:19.

of Scotland where we get much But in general, I think it

:54:20.:54:23.

wouldn't be harmful to Mark Littlewood are

:54:24.:54:26.

you in favour of that It may or may not be a good idea

:54:27.:54:37.

to include it, but I don't want politicians

:54:38.:54:42.

deciding that we will. You don't want politicians

:54:43.:54:43.

doing anything? You pretty much nailed

:54:44.:54:45.

it right there. I don't want politicians

:54:46.:54:47.

doing very much at all. You've pretty much

:54:48.:54:49.

nailed it right there. If you want to buy

:54:50.:54:51.

vitamin D supplements and Whether you live on the east

:54:52.:54:53.

side or in Glasgow, We have more options in our diet

:54:54.:54:58.

today than we have ever had There's a lot for people to get

:54:59.:55:02.

their heads around if they want to be healthy, but please to God

:55:03.:55:07.

don't leave this to some panel of John Swinney, would the Scottish

:55:08.:55:10.

Government like to see it put into supplements actually got vitamin D?

:55:11.:55:14.

people having to go out and buy I think the issue of

:55:15.:55:22.

adding it to foods or to much more complex

:55:23.:55:25.

question, but what... It's not a moral

:55:26.:55:27.

issue, but I think it does affect people's

:55:28.:55:30.

rights and their choices. That's why we have

:55:31.:55:32.

to be careful here. Let me just share a personal

:55:33.:55:34.

observation with you. My wife, as many people

:55:35.:55:36.

in Scotland know, has instance of MS in Scotland is

:55:37.:55:39.

particularly intense and one of the reasons is viewed to be

:55:40.:55:42.

a vitamin D deficiency. I am a a big advocate. I take

:55:43.:55:57.

vitamin D every day. My son takes them every day. My wife takes them.

:55:58.:56:02.

There is a big issue about recognising our circumstances here

:56:03.:56:07.

and the need, perhaps, to take that supplement and enhance that

:56:08.:56:09.

capability because of our circumstances. But there is a

:56:10.:56:13.

different issue about whether that should then be made compulsory. All

:56:14.:56:18.

right. It's a very significant point. It's not making it

:56:19.:56:24.

compulsory... It would be in the milk. You don't have to drink the

:56:25.:56:31.

milk! People who can't afford - APPLAUSE. Briefly, if you would. Not

:56:32.:56:38.

everybody actually drinks milk. Vegans don't. They do drink other

:56:39.:56:47.

types of milk and many people would be very angry at supplements being

:56:48.:56:53.

added to their food that may not come from an ethical source or a

:56:54.:56:57.

source that they felt they could eat or drink. Shami, be quick on this.

:56:58.:57:02.

We are coming to the end. It's well saying leaving the politics out.

:57:03.:57:07.

It's well saying we will spend the money on supplements what if you

:57:08.:57:13.

can't afford your food, let alone your supplements. That is the

:57:14.:57:20.

biggest problem here. David Mundell? I'm in agreement with John Swinney.

:57:21.:57:26.

John highlights the really important issues in relation to any it edition

:57:27.:57:30.

to food. There are people who would benefit from that, but there are

:57:31.:57:34.

other people who need and should be given the choice. It's getting the

:57:35.:57:39.

balance right. OK. Our time is up. Sorry. I know, it's always like

:57:40.:57:45.

that. Particularly in Glasgow, I have to say.

:57:46.:57:52.

We're in Stoke-on-Trent next week with the Education Secretary,

:57:53.:57:55.

Justine Greening, and the Chairman of Stoke City Football

:57:56.:57:57.

To come and take part in our audience in Stoke or Bedford,

:57:58.:58:06.

go to our website or call 0330 123 99 88.

:58:07.:58:12.

If you are listening tonight on Radio 5 Live, the debate goes

:58:13.:58:16.

They will be discussing this until 1.00am. Our panel is exhausted. They

:58:17.:58:31.

have to go home. I thank them and all of you who came to take part.

:58:32.:58:36.

From Glasgow and until Question Time next Thursday, good night.

:58:37.:58:43.

APPLAUSE Donald Trump's first 100 days

:58:44.:59:04.

in the White House are defining how he'll deal

:59:05.:59:06.

with the rest of the world. the UK is stepping up

:59:07.:59:12.

the formal business of Brexit.

:59:13.:59:15.