Browse content similar to 09/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The Culture Secretary, Karen Bradley. | :00:52. | :01:00. | |
The Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell. | :01:01. | :01:02. | |
Kezia Dugdale, leader of the Scottish Labour Party. | :01:03. | :01:04. | |
The SNP's International Trade spokesperson, Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh. | :01:05. | :01:06. | |
The Guardian columnist, Polly Toynbee. | :01:07. | :01:07. | |
And the editor of The Spectator, Fraser Nelson. | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
We are very grateful for Kezia Dugdale filling in for John who | :01:12. | :01:23. | |
missed his flight. Let us have the first question tonight which comes | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
from Graham McElderry, please. Is breaking the manifesto pledge | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
justified when it's done in the name of science? Of silence? Fairness. | :01:32. | :01:38. | |
Right. Is breaking a manifesto pledge justified when it's done in | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
the name of fairness? Obviously referring to the self-employed and | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
the increase that was allegedly not in the manifesto. Karen Bradley, is | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
it justified to break a manifesto pledge? The first thing I would say | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
is that the manifesto pledge was enacted in legislation in the tax | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
lock, a piece of legislation that the Government passed in the summer | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
of 2015. In that, we were very clear that it was the headline rate of | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
national insurance paid by 85% of people in the country employed class | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
1 national insurance which is at 12%. What was announced yesterday in | :02:15. | :02:21. | |
the budget was measures to make or address the unfairness that there | :02:22. | :02:24. | |
may be between the 85% of employed people and the 15% of self-employed | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
people who pay lower national insurance. Even with those changes, | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
that rate of national insurance will still not be as high as the rate | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
paid by the employed. This funny line in your manifesto, we'll not | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
raise VAT, national insurance contributions or income tax, should | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
not have been read to mean we will not raise VAT, national insurance | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
contributions... We were clear this was the rate of class one national | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
insurance. Fraser Nelson's a Tory supporter and is shaking his head. | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
The first page. I've got it here, the Conservative manifesto and I | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
don't know if you can point us to the bit where it says class 1? We | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
had a debate in Parliament. Questions were raised. This was the | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
contract you guys made and you have broken it. It was agreed. | :03:16. | :03:17. | |
APPLAUSE. . | :03:18. | :03:27. | |
David Cameron tweeted that message out. That was the promise. This is | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
the pledge. And right now, people are wondering, do Tory promises and | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
tax mean anything. You are dodging the question, Fraser, because the | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
question Graham asked is, is breaking a pledge justified when | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
done in the name of fairness? He said silence, which is exactly what | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
we have been getting over the pledge. Now, there are some signs | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
that right now, for example, I would quite like the Conservatives to | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
break their pledge on the pension credible lock, it's too expensive. | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
You can go back and say, we made this promise but we are sorry, we'll | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
have to change it. You need to be honest and level with the country | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
about what you are doing and why. What we are getting now is, and | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
Philip Hammond is sneaking it into a budget, and pretending he isn't some | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
kind of Bill Clinton-style Jesuitical language that he hasn't | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
broken his pledge when it was there in black-and-white. It's more than | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
about bad economics, it's about hon city and politics and whether | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
politicians should be believed. Polly Toynbee? I think the problem | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
was, this was a ridiculous pledge to make in the first place and I hope | :04:35. | :04:41. | |
that no party will go into another election ever locking themselves | :04:42. | :04:43. | |
into things they can't be sure they are going to keep. It may be | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
necessary to raise taxes. After all, when this manifesto was written, we | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
didn't have Brexit, all sorts of things have happened. Who knows what | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
may happen in the next few years related to the world economy or | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
anything else. I don't think politicians should ever tie their | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
hands particularly on tax. The reason it was done by George Osborne | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
and David Cameron was to try to stick it to Labour by saying, look, | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
we've got this pledge, now you'll have to follow that, knowing that | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
Labour probably didn't want to spend more. I think that was a very, very | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
bad reason for doing it. For good economic reasons. The Institute for | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
Fiscal Studies has said so, lots of other experts have said, don't do | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
this. Leave yourself some leeway. If you do break a promise, then be | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
honest and apologise. I mean, this Jesuitical stuff about, well was it | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
this clause or that clause, absolute nonsense. Who would be a minister, | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
it's a hard job, you've got to beat the script and I feel very sorry for | :05:42. | :05:48. | |
you. You'll have to repeat it, but how much easier it would have been | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
for you to say, sorry, I got that wrong, it is a bad thing to break a | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
pledge but it's even worse to make an economic mistake. We'll come back | :05:56. | :06:06. | |
to you, Karen. You, Sir? Self-employed are paying less | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
national insurance. What about the multi-millionaires not paying their | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
tax? Please APPLAUSE. | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
And you, Sir? Regardless of the fairness of it, it's another U-turn | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
and I was reading yesterday that there was other Tories saying, | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
quick, let's make a U-turn from this to get past this so we don't have | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
another U-turn and this is the reason we have such a disconnect in | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
the country between people and politicians, we cannot trust what | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
people are saying because there are pledges and they get changed. People | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
get sick of it. APPLAUSE. | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
The woman there? Do you see a difference in this manifesto pledge | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
break to the one of the increase in student fees? Why is it different | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
and why is there less uproar. From the Lib Dems you mean? Yes. | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
APPLAUSE. Tasmina act head Sheikh? Thank you. | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
I think manifesto pledges are important because when a party are | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
presents themselves to be elected to Government, all parties should stand | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
and people should be able to rely on that. I agree with Polly, it would | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
have been better to come clean and say we have made a mistake and | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
changed our mind, rather than pretending that's not what they | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
meant in the first place. To follow on the point about self-employed | :07:33. | :07:34. | |
people and to have a level playing field. Self-employed people don't | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
have access to parental leave benefits and holiday pay and other | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
things and they're already finding it very difficult to keep their | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
businesses going and indeed employ other people. If we are talking | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
about fairness, I wonder why the Chancellor, if he wants to have a | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
level playing field, why he didn't hear the voices of the WASPI women | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
campaigning right outside the House of Commons chamber who wanted | :07:57. | :07:59. | |
pension changes. APPLAUSE. | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
Kezia Dugdale? It's very interesting, Tasmina's answer | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
because of course in Scotland the SNP have promised to scrap the | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
council tax the last ten years, won two elections on it and failed to do | :08:11. | :08:18. | |
it. I wish colleagues would take their pledges as seriously as you | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
do. This is a question that was fundamentally about fairness. I | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
agree that what the Government were trying to say, self-employed people | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
pay less tax than people who work for the Government because they | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
don't get the same rights, so if you are going to increase the tax level, | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
you should increase their rights as well, give them paternity leave and | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
sick leave. The important point is, what is happening here, is that the | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
Tories are forcing low-income and middle-income people in this country | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
to pay the price of Brexit. There is a simple bit of maths we can do. The | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
tax increase on businesses will generate ?2 billion of additional | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
revenue to spend on schools and hospitals. At the same time, the | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
Tories are going to spend ?70 billion by the end of this | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
Parliament giving tax cuts for the richest most well-off people in this | :09:05. | :09:07. | |
country. That's unfair and that's what we must challenge every step of | :09:08. | :09:10. | |
the way. APPLAUSE. | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
The man in the checked shirt in the second row? I think the problem here | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
is, and what we are learning, is that manifestos aren't really worth | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
the paper they're written on these days. | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
APPLAUSE. So if we go back to 2010 and the | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
debacle over the tuition fees and now this, and then what was alluded | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
to before with the SNP wanting to scrap council tax, was it? Yes Then | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
how could we possibly believe any political party and what they say in | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
a manifesto, should a manifesto come with small print attached? | :09:47. | :09:48. | |
APPLAUSE. OK. You, Sir? | :09:49. | :09:55. | |
2015 feels like a decade ago. I feel like people are making a big deal | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
out of nothing. I'm not really bothered, give them some wriggle | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
room. So you think it's a trivial matter really? It seems like a | :10:05. | :10:07. | |
farce, I'm not really bothered. So you are a friend of Karen Bradley? I | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
wouldn't say that, no. Briefly Karen, do you want to answer? You | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
have been told by Polly that it should never have been there in the | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
first place? . There are many, many points I could make. There are, but | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
do you think it's right - the point is, is it right for a Chancellor's | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
hands to be tied on an issue like national insurance and tax in a | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
manifesto because there is a thing, it was put in at the last moment, | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
they couldn't think of anything to say, stick it in, isn't that right? | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
The Tories never thought they would win a majority, they thought, it | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
doesn't matter what is in the manifesto, we'll go into a | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
coalition. Like the referendum indeed. Unfortunately they ended up | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
winning power. Theresa May can say, I didn't write | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
this manifesto. There is a case to be made for doing this. It was | :11:01. | :11:15. | |
tweeted about. Briefly from you? Karen Bradley said it was made | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
perfectly clear that the promise applied to 85%. Can you tell us how | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
it was made clear? Well, when we legislated for the tax lock, we | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
legislated that we would not increase the rate of national | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
insurance that's paid by 85% of employed people, class 1 national | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
insurance, 12%. I wanted to pick up on Fraser's point that he said, we | :11:41. | :11:43. | |
sneaked this out. This wasn't sneaked out, it was a budget where | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
the Chancellor stood up and said, we know we need to pay for skills, | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
schools and social care, these are things we need the pay for. We don't | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
want to burden our children with this. It was very open about that. | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
There were tax cuts for the richest people in society. Why force that | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
extra pressure on to low-income people. The point about the changes | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
is that actually, you have to have taxable profits at over ?32,000 | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
before you'll be paying more tax. It's ?16,000. No, no, the overall | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
picture, you have to look at the budget in the whole. It's over | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
?32,000 so actually we are protecting the lower and middle | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
incomes. People in Sunderland who're working for themselves are people | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
who're going to be paying the tax. Not the people who work in the City | :12:32. | :12:33. | |
of London. APPLAUSE. | :12:34. | :12:42. | |
Jean Hellens? Is the extra ?2 billion funding over the next three | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
years for social care too little too late? | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
APPLAUSE. Polly Toynbee? Social care crisis is | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
quite appalling and the way it's tipping over into the NHS filling up | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
A departments, unable to get people into beds because other | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
people are stuck in beds because there are no social care places for | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
them and no care packages at home, the ?2 billion is over three years. | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
What the King's Fund says, who're the main auditors of this, they say | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
we need ?2 billion a year. What this might do is just about hold it as it | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
is, but as it is, between half a million and a million old people, | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
frail people, are not getting the care they would have had five years | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
ago. The crisis is in people's front | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
rooms, behind closed doors where people can't see it, people not | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
getting care who really need it, as well as the crisis that we can see | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
in the NHS and for there to be no money for the NHS is extraordinary. | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
We have been through six years where never before since the NHS was | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
founded in 1948 has it ever had such a low settlement. No wonder it's | :13:58. | :14:04. | |
bursting at if seems -- the seems. The wonder is how the incredible | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
people in the NHS all the way through have just about kept it on | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
the road. But it's not going to last and may not last until the end of | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
this year without us seeing many more people waiting on trolleys, | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
some who've already been dying in hospital corridors. I think this | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
Government is extraordinary that in this budget, ?9 billion were taken | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
off corporation tax for corporations and just think what that money would | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
have done for the NHS and social care. | :14:33. | :14:32. | |
APPLAUSE. Fraser Nelson. Because the economy | :14:33. | :14:45. | |
is going a lot better than people thought this time last year, there | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
is ?2 billion more to give to help solve the care crisis, but that is a | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
sticking plaster, only therefore three years. We will have a huge | :14:55. | :14:57. | |
problem though one has come up with a solution for. The Government has | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
said it is thinking radically about this and it has to because nothing | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
seems to be working right now. My hunch is that what you will have to | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
do is look carefully. For example, the Government has said nobody | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
should have to sell their homes to pay for their care, but you do get | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
some people who get care who basically could borrow against the | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
value of their house. You get people who have greater assets that are not | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
counted when it comes to what they qualify for. For example, in the | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
NHS, I do not see that I should get a free GP appointment if I can | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
afford to pay for it, nor subsidised medicine. So you would have a means | :15:38. | :15:45. | |
tested NHS? More than right now. The NHS' needs are huge and the | :15:46. | :15:48. | |
Government's ability to fund it is running out. Those who can afford to | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
pay more should be asked to and would be happy to. I don't see why | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
people like me are funded by the NHS, when we can afford to pay ?10 | :15:59. | :16:07. | |
for the NHS. The end of a free at point of use NHS is the end of the | :16:08. | :16:13. | |
principal. Karen Bradley, Fraser just said nothing is working right | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
just now. Do you agree? I am not sure I agree on paying for services | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
on the NHS, which is free at the point of need and the point of | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
delivery and will remain so. Just to pick up, why do you object to what | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
he says, that rich people could help the NHS by paying? I agree with | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
Polly that it would be the end of the NHS because that would be a | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
fundamental change to the way the NHS works, which I want to protect. | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
On social care, some areas get this right but 50% of all discharges from | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
hospital are down to 24 local authority areas. So we know there | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
are places this is working, places this is right, but there are places | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
where it is not. The Chancellor has announced ?1 billion up front so | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
that care packages can be put in place and we can make sure we get | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
this right so we do not have a crisis next winter. Also over the | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
summer we will look at what we need to do, fundamental reform, so we can | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
look at where this is working and replicate that in those places it | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
simply isn't. In the second row from the back. Why has the Government | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
decided to stop nursing bursaries? Who is going to deliver this social | :17:28. | :17:29. | |
care? APPLAUSE | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
Do you want to take that point? We want to professionalise nursing | :17:34. | :17:42. | |
and have it with the same degree courses as other students. But it is | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
very, very important to make sure we get social care right. Police said | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
there was no money for the NHS. There was. There was money for GP | :17:52. | :17:59. | |
triage at A, and there was money for the sustainability and | :18:00. | :18:02. | |
transformation plans, so we can get those right, too. Well, it's not | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
enough money. Last weekend we saw over 200,000 people marching to save | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
our NHS in England, because the system is in disarray. Fraser speaks | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
about a lack of money. It is about priorities. The Government has money | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
to spend and it is up to them to decide what is most important of | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
them. I believe a National Health Service, social care packages are | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
part of the social contract that government has with its people. You | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
are all paying into it, we are all paying into it, so we need it and it | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
should be there. Today we have the A times which have been released, | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
which show massive problems in the NHS, and the NHS needs to be saved | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
but that does not seem to be a priority. In terms of the Budget, | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
how are people feeling about this Budget? If you are in receipt of | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
benefits, if you are having ?30 cut each week, do you feel better off | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
after this Government's decisions? A Budget and Chancellor that does not | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
mention Brexit when this is what it is all about? We know that the | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
Chancellor is amassing what has been called a war chest of money to | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
protect from the impact of Brexit. What the Chancellor should be doing | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
is spending on the people of this country in need, who need that | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
support now. That is his responsibility, and he is letting | :19:28. | :19:30. | |
the country down. APPLAUSE | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
You, sir, in the fourth row. Until we take politics out of the | :19:35. | :19:41. | |
National Health Service, we will never find an answer. | :19:42. | :19:43. | |
APPLAUSE We need some fresh ideas. | :19:44. | :19:50. | |
I totally agree that at some point, somewhere, we will have to start | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
paying for the service we get. It is a fantastic service but we need to | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
be real and take the politics out of it and get it sorted out. What do | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
you mean exactly, that politicians can't solve it? It is like tennis, | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
from one side of the court to the other. We need to take the politics | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
out and have a proper, grown-up talk. | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
The ?2 billion for social care is less than they spend treating | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
illnesses caused by obesity. Because people are too reliant on the NHS, | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
does that add unnecessary stress to an already overcrowded service? | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
Kezia Dugdale. That last point is about preventative spending, what | :20:33. | :20:35. | |
can we do to reduce demand on the NHS. To answer the original | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
question, ?2 billion is welcome but not nearly enough. Over the last | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
parliament, the Tories cut 4.6 billion out of social care. They are | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
putting back in half of what they took out previously. The fundamental | :20:50. | :20:58. | |
tragedy about this is how short term it is in its thinking. We are | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
talking about the money that we spend helping largely elderly people | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
living in their own homes safely for as long as they possibly can, to | :21:07. | :21:09. | |
keep them out of hospital. When we get a bit scrimping with this cash | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
and do not put enough in, we are putting more pressure on the NHS. It | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
means an elderly person is more likely to get ill, to sit in A and | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
wards for weeks on end. Investing is actually saving our NHS money and | :21:26. | :21:28. | |
that is what is so wrong with the Tory attack on social care. Karen, I | :21:29. | :21:39. | |
work in the NHS, I look after old people, have done for 20 years. | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
Everyday I the effects of your government's cuts on the service | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
that we so desperately wants to deliver for our older persons. | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
Hospitals should be able to admit older persons straight and welcome | :21:54. | :21:56. | |
them, not have them waiting for 14 hours on trolleys like your | :21:57. | :22:05. | |
government does. When it's time for them to be discharged from hospital, | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
we should be able to do that safely. Your government doesn't get it. | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
Elderly people, care of the elderly need more resources. | :22:19. | :22:19. | |
APPLAUSE I don't think anybody in the | :22:20. | :22:28. | |
government has said we don't need to address this problem. | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
That's why the money was put in in the Budget. We do need to make sure | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
we get this right but it's not just about money. When we know that 50% | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
of delayed discharges are down to 24 local authority areas, we know there | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
are places getting this right. We need to learn from them and get it | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
right across the board. Because I agree with you and I want this for | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
my constituents, too, that when they leave hospital... First, frail and | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
elderly can go into hospital and be admitted quickly and appropriately. | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
That is why GP triage at A will make such a difference. But also | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
that there are care packages and places for them, because nobody | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
wants to be in hospital longer than they have to be. Which of these | :23:11. | :23:17. | |
councils are you referring to? 24 councils are responsible for 50% of | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
delayed discharges. And yet councils have all had their budgets cut by | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
40% on average. APPLAUSE | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
Some councils, we are seeing this working, for example in Salford. | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
It is working because health and social are working together. We know | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
it can be done and we can get it right. The situation is very | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
different in different parts of the country, different in terms of the | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
consideration of the NHS and in terms of the councils. It is not | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
just a question of some councils are wonderful. 40% cuts to councils, | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
another 20% cuts to councils in this Budget. And today, figures revealed | :23:57. | :24:06. | |
devastating delays in April waiting for cancer care, the longest delays | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
for most people since the targets were first put there. I would like | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
to take up that point, why can't we take politics out of the NHS? The | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
thing is, the NHS is at the heart of politics. There are a lot of | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
Conservatives, maybe not Karen, but maybe Fraser, there are a lot who | :24:24. | :24:26. | |
really don't believe in it, who think people should pay for | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
themselves. Because we want to reform it? Reform always means | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
privatisation, insurance systems, going the American way. So it is | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
political and we have to fight for it very hard to keep it as it is, as | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
it was founded. And we know, because when Labour was in power they did | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
manage to get the funding right up to the level about equal to | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
comparable countries in Europe, the results absolutely soared and | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
waiting lists dropped. APPLAUSE | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
Nathan Cinnamond, if you would stand by for your question. | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
We're in Bognor Regis next week, the week after we'll be in Bangor. | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
And for a Special Question Time on Brexit we'll be in Birmingham | :25:12. | :25:14. | |
on Monday 27th March where our audience will be able | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
to put their questions about what Brexit might mean | :25:18. | :25:19. | |
for Britain to some of the leading politicians | :25:20. | :25:21. | |
That's from 8.30 to 10pm on Monday March 27th. | :25:22. | :25:33. | |
Come and join our audience for any of those programmes. | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
Nathan Cinnamond, your question. Should a snap election be called to | :25:37. | :25:55. | |
give the Government a Brexit date? What William Hague was calling for | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
this week, to give the Government a mandate for Brexit. Kezia Dugdale. | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
No. My reason for thinking that is that Brexit has caused a tremendous | :26:06. | :26:08. | |
amount of instability and insecurity across the country. As I speak to | :26:09. | :26:16. | |
people and businesses, what they want is a period of peace and calm, | :26:17. | :26:18. | |
time to understand what is happening, to digestive and move on | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
from there. If we had a general election now it would, dare I say | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
it, bring out the worst in politics and politicians, back to manifesto | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
drafting, not doing what was in the interests of the country. How do you | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
think Labour would fare? Brilliantly. Is that why you are a | :26:35. | :26:42. | |
bit off the idea? I wonder why you would think that, David. Honestly, I | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
have gone through a Scottish parliament election and a Scottish | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
general election in recent times and a referendum, too, so I do not fear | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
elections. I have experienced them, and experienced bad results. That is | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
not my motivation for being opposed. I think it is bad for the country, | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
and I will do what I think is in the interests of working people and that | :27:06. | :27:08. | |
is why I don't think it is time for a general election. Are you in | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
favour of an election? Yes, I am a Labour supporter and the reason I | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
want a general election is because it would get rid of Jeremy Corbyn. | :27:18. | :27:18. | |
APPLAUSE Who would you have instead? | :27:19. | :27:26. | |
There are several leading... Chuka Umunna. I would love to see him as | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
leader of the Labour Party. There are people out there that can offer | :27:31. | :27:33. | |
credible opposition to the Conservative government, which it | :27:34. | :27:40. | |
needs at the moment. Almost anyone. Yes, perhaps. Polly Toynbee. I find | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
it extraordinary that Theresa May would not be very tempted, because | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
if she had an election now, she would absolutely wipe the floor and | :27:50. | :27:56. | |
get a stonking great majority. Labour is sadly 16 points behind. | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
Worse than that, the underlying figures, a poll today, shows that | :28:01. | :28:09. | |
John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn are 31 points behind on who do you most | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
trust on the economy. As this Budget comes out, which is profoundly | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
unfair to ordinary working families, who Theresa May is supposed to be | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
supporting, despite the injustice of the Budget, despite the fact that | :28:24. | :28:26. | |
there are lots of alternative ways of doing it better, even so, Corbyn | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
and McDonnell, and I am sorry he is not here today because I intended to | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
direct it at him, not at Kezia Dugdale, who did not support Corbyn | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
in the last election, I think it is a tragedy. I think Labour has to | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
come to its senses. When you look at the prospect of what would happen if | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
there was an election now, you might get rid of Corbyn, but you would get | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
rid of 100 Labour MPs, good people, at the same time. I agree it is a | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
pity he is not here, but what is it that you have against Jeremy Corbyn | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
and John McDonnell? Well, you know, he won with a great success in the | :29:03. | :29:05. | |
beginning and a tremendous coterie of people who flocked to Labour, who | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
were not really Labour people, and you thought, let's see if he can | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
work his magic? Can it work? Can you affect a wider part of the | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
population, enough voters to rally to his flag? He has had plenty of | :29:19. | :29:27. | |
time to try, and after Copeland, after a by-election, a ward | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
by-election here, lost to the Liberal Democrats... Are you taunted | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
by your old SDP party and a revival of that? No, been there, done it and | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
it didn't work. What do you make of William Hague and Andrew Lansley | :29:45. | :29:46. | |
also said there should be an election? You can see why the Tories | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
find it attractive because never have they been more confident of | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
winning a general election. The polls suggest they would get a | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
majority of over 100. It is difficult to think of the Labour | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
Party getting any weaker, although Jeremy Corbyn always astonishes in | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
his ability to make it worse. Theresa May said she wouldn't do it, | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
and we know she keeps her promises. She says rightly that we need | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
stability. She does not really need a bigger majority because right | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
now... Hang on a second, the point William Hague is getting at is that | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
she wasn't, I know we don't elect prime ministers, but she never had | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
an election with her name as Prime Minister, and she has Brexit | :30:29. | :30:30. | |
negotiations to conduct which will be tough. Those are his grounds, to | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
give her a mandate to go to other countries and say, I have the conch. | :30:37. | :30:46. | |
Her authority in Parliament is strong. Everybody knows she could | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
put to the sword quite a few Labour MPs and Labour TSB had enough | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
misery. It would be unfair to inflict more on it. The one thing | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
that makes me change my mind on this, if the Tories are going to | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
think we are not bound by the last manifesto, they are honour bound to | :31:05. | :31:07. | |
get a new mandate. They are not going to be too happy about things | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
in the document, so really under the system you need to be bound by a | :31:12. | :31:14. | |
manifesto. If you don't want to be, you need to ask for a new mandate. | :31:15. | :31:20. | |
Even even over the issue in the budget? If she thinks the last | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
manifesto is rendered null and void by Brexit and her leadership and | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
there's a fair argument for that, that doesn't make the case for get | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
ago fresh mandate. Nathan what do you think? Are you in favour of an | :31:32. | :31:38. | |
election? Political circumstances change and it's not the ideal | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
situation but I think the Conservative Party did say, we will | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
have a referendum, presumably with the intention of delivering on it | :31:46. | :31:48. | |
soiful like we should continue as we are, let Jeremy Corbyn sap the soul | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
out of the Labour Party and let those who believe in the will of the | :31:53. | :31:55. | |
people continue. APPLAUSE. | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
You on the gangway? In regards to the general election, I don't | :32:01. | :32:03. | |
believe it should happen because the last thing we need is to split up | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
the country again when we are going through a Brexit. We need to ensure | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
that we are showing a united front for all of Europe and all of the | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
rest of the world. Secondly in regards to Jeremy Corbyn, it's not | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
such Jeremy but it was the ideas that he brought forward, he went | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
back to the original reasons that the Labour Party was actually | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
created to ensure that the working class people had a voice and that's | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
what people went back for and voted for. It wasn't the man, it was the | :32:35. | :32:36. | |
ideas. APPLAUSE. | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
So you believe he should stay there and fight his corner whenever the | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
election comes? I don't think we should have an election yet. Whether | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
it's the time that he's there at that point, but we do need to change | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
how Labour is working because the middle of the road doesn't work any | :32:55. | :32:57. | |
more. OK. And you, Sir? You on the | :32:58. | :33:11. | |
gangway? About Brexit, I can't understand when in 1973 when it was, | :33:12. | :33:19. | |
we only voted for Common Market for trade. You look at it at the end of | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
the day, why did the British people not get a vote on the other six | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
treaties that was passed? Well they've had it now haven't they, the | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
vote, and they're leaving, so it's all done and dusted. | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
APPLAUSE. Let's go back to the election. | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
Tasmina? I fail to see what the point of a snap election would be, | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
apart from just to demonstrate the further arrogance of the Tory party, | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
because I find it distasteful when the Chancellor at the despatch box | :33:52. | :33:53. | |
talked about the last Labour Government as if there was never | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
going to be another Labour Government ever in Consigning the | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
Labour Party to history which of course isn't good for democracy. But | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
clearly, those that want a snap election would want to install even | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
more Tory MPs at Westminster and that's not good for the whole of the | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
country. I think what the most disturbing thing out of all of this | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
is, is that the Labour Party have allowed themselves to get into a | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
position where the Conservative Party know they can do what they | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
want now and conceivably for the next five years in advance of | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
another election because there's no prospect of the Labour Party winning | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
that election. That's not good in times right now when there needs to | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
be a really strong and united opposition to stand up to the cuts | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
that are coming from this Government and also to stand up in terms of the | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
Brexit deal. Now, whilst I understand that the people of | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
Sunderland voted to leave the European Union, the terms upon which | :34:51. | :34:53. | |
you leave and ensuring that your jobs and your industries are | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
protected once you leave should be of paramount importance to the | :34:59. | :35:00. | |
Government. But what it appears to me to be the case, is that having a | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
snap election or increasing the number of Tory MPs, is because, as | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
is always the case, the Conservatives want to ride rough | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
shot over everybody and get everything their own way without | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
having to seek further recourse to the opposition. That's why those | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
Brexiteers in the Tory party wanted Brexit in the first place because | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
they didn't want anyone to have any involvement in all of their | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
decisions. You say it's arrogant to want to win an election? It's | :35:32. | :35:34. | |
arrogant to suggest there wouldn't be another Labour Government. He | :35:35. | :35:44. | |
said at the despatch box, the last Labour Government. On the topic of | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
should there be another snap election, there shouldn't be. There | :35:49. | :35:57. | |
is work to be done on building a stronger country, and delivering the | :35:58. | :36:00. | |
vote that the British people had last year and so decisively voted to | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
leave the European Union. What about getting a mandate to negotiate in | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
the way that Theresa May wants to negotiate because we don't know what | :36:10. | :36:12. | |
she wants to do. We have that mandate. The people said they want | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
to leave the European Union. But how to leave is another question. The | :36:18. | :36:20. | |
British people said they want to leave the European Union. They | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
didn't define how, and if there was a general election, she could | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
explain how she wanted the relationship with the rest of the | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
world to be. There is a process of negotiation and we have to get the | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
best and right deal for Britain. But I think on elections and referendum, | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
I think to be honest with you, we've all probably had enough of them and | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
I could do with a little bit of time to get on with the job. No more | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
elections. You, Sir? The fourth row? Just to the original question, | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
surely the vote on the 23rd June was enough of a mandate that the people | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
of the UK wanted to leave the European Union. But what if it | :36:58. | :37:05. | |
doesn't come out the way, I mean you presumably have a view about how you | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
wanted to come out, if it doesn't come out the way you want? The way | :37:11. | :37:13. | |
that we want it, it's gone through the House of Commons where they've | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
got the debate, they're trying to say there's going to be a vote after | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
the negotiations, so that surely is enough for the elected members of | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
Parliament. You, Sir, on the left? Just going back to the point on the | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
Labour Party, as weak as the Labour Party is today, they also lost a lot | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
of votes and a lot of seats during the back end of Tony Blair's reign, | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
during the Brown years, the Miliband years. During the Miliband years, I | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
remember leading up to the last general election, one of the pledges | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
that they put out to try and inspire voters like me to try and | :37:50. | :37:52. | |
differentiate themselves from the Tory party was, we are not going to | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
keep university fees at ?9,000, instead we are going to lower them | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
to ?6,000. That to me summed up the Labour Party at the time, they were | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
an, I can't believe it's Tory, Tory light. We do need an opposition but | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
we need an opposition that is different, OK, we need choices in | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
the political spectrum in this country. You agree with the woman on | :38:14. | :38:23. | |
the gangway? Absolutely. Even if not enough people are choosing it, what | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
do you say? Tony Blair disillusioned a lot of people from politics, a lot | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
of long time Labour voters. APPLAUSE. | :38:31. | :38:37. | |
OK. A brief point from you, Sir, then another question? I think that | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
the problem Jeremy Corbyn's got is, he's got to unite staunch remainers | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
mainly down south and staunch levers, Brexiteers in the north and | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
I just don't think any leader is capable of doing it for Labour. | :38:53. | :39:00. | |
We have got a question, I'm tempted to come to this question in a | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
moment. I think we might come to this question. Debra? | :39:05. | :39:15. | |
Should Scotland be given a second referendum? | :39:16. | :39:23. | |
Tasmina you start this because it's tied up with Brexit? After the | :39:24. | :39:29. | |
referendum vote, it's clear, Sunderland, the votes to leave are | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
the same but in the opposite direction in terms of how Scotland | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
voted to remain. The First Minister was were scleer that she wanted to | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
discuss and agree with Theresa May as far as possible a solution that | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
would make sure that the views and aspirations of the people of | :39:45. | :39:47. | |
Scotland were also taken into account. So she presented a plan. | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
Scotland's place in Europe to the Prime Minister. That included three | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
points, first one being, could we all stay part of the single market | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
because we think that's best for the whole of the UK. Helpfully, Fraser's | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
brought the manifesto here which says yes to the single market. It's | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
all in there in terms of what the Conservative Party were elected on. | :40:10. | :40:12. | |
The second point and, as we all know, the Prime Minister's ruled | :40:13. | :40:14. | |
that out, I don't think that was a particularly wise thing to do before | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
going to the negotiating table at Brussels. The second point in the | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
First Minister's plan was for there to be a differentiated agreement for | :40:24. | :40:31. | |
Scotland much like you're hoping and anticipating that a differentiated | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
agreement would be in place for Sunderland and your car | :40:35. | :40:36. | |
manufacturers here also. We are waiting for the Prime Minister to | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
confirm whether or not she's going to find such an arrangement | :40:41. | :40:43. | |
acceptable, an arrangement which has the support of the Scottish | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
Parliament. So hang on a second. You are not asking, as I thought your | :40:48. | :40:50. | |
leader was, for a referendum next autumn? I'm just getting to the | :40:51. | :41:01. | |
third point, David. Thank you. The third point is if the Prime Minister | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
doesn't agree, the First Minister has a mandate to call another | :41:06. | :41:08. | |
independence referendum because her manifesto detailed that if we were | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
to be taken out of the EU against our will, that should be the case. | :41:13. | :41:19. | |
The people of Scotland voted in their numbers, 62-38 to remain in | :41:20. | :41:22. | |
the European Union and the Scottish Parliament also gave her a mandate | :41:23. | :41:25. | |
to negotiate the best deal for Scotland. Polly Toynbee, do you | :41:26. | :41:28. | |
think there should be a second referendum and do you think there | :41:29. | :41:31. | |
will be one, more to the point. We were talking about a general | :41:32. | :41:33. | |
election not being necessary? I think the Scots should be able to | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
have referendums whenever they want them. Any old time? Why not? Until | :41:37. | :41:43. | |
one side wins? Or until the SNP wins? Thai got their own Parliament. | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
If the Scottish people feel they are having too many referendums, they'll | :41:49. | :41:51. | |
start saying no. I think what is very depressing is the extent to | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
which Theresa May has done so little to woo the Scots to keep them in the | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
union. This is the Conservative and Unionist Party. She went the other | :42:01. | :42:06. | |
day, it was very odd and said to them, it's senseless for you to want | :42:07. | :42:09. | |
to leave your biggest market. You thought hang on a minute, she's just | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
taking us out of her biggest market, out of the biggest single market. | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
She doesn't have very good arguments. On the other hand, the | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
Scots are saying, we want to stay in the EU, a good market, you know, and | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
yet they're wrenching themselves away from us. All of this disunity | :42:26. | :42:31. | |
is a terrible disaster for all of us. I desperately want Scotland to | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
stay in the union and want Britain to stay as close to Europe as | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
possible in the single market which is in your manifesto and in the | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
customs union. Otherwise I fear disaster and for places like | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
Sunderland, more than anywhere, more than the south, which is curby, it's | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
here that we'll be hurt most if we go right out. There are many points. | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
The gentleman up there said as if there was on the one kind of out, | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
there are many. I think we should have a question on the deal she gets | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
at the end as to whether we all agree with it. | :43:08. | :43:14. | |
APPLAUSE. The woman there. In relation to the | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
original question. Absolutely not should Scotland have another | :43:20. | :43:22. | |
referendum. We opted as a United Kingdom to vote to leave or to stay | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
with the European Union, so therefore we should all just deal | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
with... No, Tasmina, you spoke at great length and I've got to crack | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
the whip so we get fourthth further down the line. Fraser Nelson? There | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
was appetite in Scotland for a referendum. Three in four Scots | :43:40. | :43:46. | |
don't want it, something like that. Nicola Sturgeon does sign to be in a | :43:47. | :43:54. | |
hurry, she saying 2018 -- does seem to be in a hurry. You would think | :43:55. | :44:01. | |
you wanted to wait until at least we left the EU. The Prime Minister | :44:02. | :44:08. | |
wants... Tasmina. We had a compromised document. We had that on | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
agreed terms. You've had your stay, you've spoken at some length. | :44:14. | :44:23. | |
I'mancing Fraser's point -- I'm answering Fraser's point. I suspect | :44:24. | :44:30. | |
Nicola Sturgeon is in a hurry because her own rating is tanking | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
her approval rating which is going down, she knows she might not get | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
control of the next Scottish Parliament so she's only got a small | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
window to play havoc with the union once again. Kezia Dugdale, as leader | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
of the Labour Party in Scotland, would you welcome one? The question | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
was should Scotland be given one. The question should be, does | :44:51. | :44:53. | |
Scotland want one and Fraser's right. The country is divided | :44:54. | :45:00. | |
enough, we do not want to be divided again. And can I say to you very | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
clearly, I spent two-and-a-half years of my life campaigning for a | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
no-vote and it was an active referendum, the talk of the pubs, on | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
the buses, all the time for two-and-a-half year, 85% voted no, | :45:16. | :45:18. | |
and I understand there are some people now who're angry at Brexit, | :45:19. | :45:21. | |
angry at the Tories and think it's time to go again, but the harsh | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
reality is this, the economic case for independence is weaker now than | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
it was a few years ago and what the SNP are arguing for is false hope. | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
They're saying to the poorest people in this country that it can be | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
different. They'll be faced with a ?15 billion deficit if we were | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
independent meaning less money for education and NHS, that's why I | :45:44. | :45:45. | |
always oppose independence. APPLAUSE. | :45:46. | :45:55. | |
As a member of the Conservative and unionist party, I want Scotland to | :45:56. | :46:02. | |
remain part of the UK. Even though I will be at the England- Scotland | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
Calcutta rugby match, I still want Scotland to be a very important part | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
of the union. And I just think, in the same way that I respect the | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
decision the British people made on June the 23rd, I respect the | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
decision that Scottish people made to stay in the union. If Parliament | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
asked for a referendum, would you think they should be given a second | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
referendum? The people of Scotland do not want that. If the Scottish | :46:33. | :46:39. | |
Parliament said they want a referendum, as suggested, do you | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
think the British government should stand in the way? We should do what | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
is right for Scotland and the UK. Let's get it clear... Your party, at | :46:48. | :46:54. | |
the point when we are taking power back from Brussels and giving them | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
to Westminster and Edinburgh, you want to... No, wait, let's not get | :46:58. | :47:04. | |
into that argument. You just said you think if the Scottish Parliament | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
asked for a referendum, the Westminster Parliament, under | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
Theresa May, should deny them that right. The people of Scotland do not | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
want another referendum and I respect that decision. This will | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
rumble on. A question about education from David Russell. Why | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
are so many politicians, mostly but not exclusively from the left, so | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
violently opposed to grammar schools? Are you violently opposed | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
to grammar schools? I am all for them. Fraser Nelson. I am going to | :47:36. | :47:46. | |
let you down here, I am afraid, I am not a fan of grammar schools either. | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
I am against academic selection. We have done some incredible things | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
with education in England. Wider you think you are letting me down? The | :47:57. | :48:06. | |
thing is that grammar schools, for a while they did really good at | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
getting people from poorer backgrounds, bright people, into | :48:12. | :48:14. | |
places they would otherwise not be. But now we have far better tools | :48:15. | :48:17. | |
than that. We have academies, free schools. So many more devices to get | :48:18. | :48:24. | |
people from all abilities and to put the resource into educating kids | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
from all abilities. If you allow new schools to take the smartest kids, | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
that's probably what they will do. They should not have that option. We | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
should have all community schools. We are seeing new schools like Moss | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
born Academy, once one of the worst schools in England, which is now one | :48:42. | :48:44. | |
of the best performing in England. The Conservatives should build on | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
their success, rather than go back to grammar schools, which I think is | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
a bit of a trap. APPLAUSE | :48:53. | :48:54. | |
The Chancellor said they were raising money for 148 new free | :48:55. | :49:00. | |
schools, which would be free to select pupils based on academic | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
ability, which is a grammar school, in effect. | :49:05. | :49:07. | |
I think the point is that previously it has been against the law for | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
selective schools to expand to open new free schools. I think we should | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
have the maximum amount of choice in our education system. There is | :49:17. | :49:19. | |
nothing wrong with wanting the best for our children and the most | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
appropriate school place for them. That means some selective schools, | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
but also faith schools, specialist mathematics schools, schools that | :49:29. | :49:30. | |
specialise in the things that are right for our young people. Grammar | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
schools is the question, not faith schools. The funding announced | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
yesterday is for all schools, and we should have that choice. There is | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
nothing wrong in my view in wanting to make sure that every child has | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
the chance to have the best school place they possibly can. How can the | :49:49. | :49:56. | |
government justify spending 320 million on new free schools, new | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
grammar schools, when currently state schools are really struggling | :50:01. | :50:06. | |
to make ends meet? Surely you are just papering over the cracks. | :50:07. | :50:07. | |
APPLAUSE And you. | :50:08. | :50:15. | |
Surely we should not be taking an elitist approach to this and should | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
be funding schools on the whole, investing in children who don't have | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
the opportunity to get to a grammar school. Do you think these 140 new | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
schools will all turn into grammar schools, selective schools? We can't | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
predict the future, but it's very likely. In Scotland, we do not have | :50:33. | :50:41. | |
grammar schools, free schools or academies and we look at you in | :50:42. | :50:48. | |
England and think you are a bit odd. White whose system works best? I am | :50:49. | :50:54. | |
well up for debating that. Why are Scottish standards of education | :50:55. | :51:01. | |
falling? That is the SNP's fault. Really! I could tell you why that is | :51:02. | :51:08. | |
at great length, or I could just tell you the SNP have cut ?1.5 | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
billion from local services in five years, and if you do that local | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
councils, schools will suffer as a consequence. Let's stick with the | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
idea of grammar schools. The reason I am so opposed to grammar schools | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
is that I can't stomach the fact that you might right of someone's | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
life chances at the age of 11, or indeed the age of 14. -- you might | :51:30. | :51:37. | |
write them off. Do you mind being a Standard Bearer? Like Kezia, I am | :51:38. | :51:43. | |
Scottish so we never went through the grammar school thing. However, | :51:44. | :51:49. | |
if you failed your 11 plus, you had years and years to catch up and move | :51:50. | :51:56. | |
forward. I had a guy in my Scottish Highers class, who started in the | :51:57. | :52:02. | |
medial and worked his way year. He was only able to do that because he | :52:03. | :52:08. | |
was selected according to his ability. You are in favour of | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
selection as it goes along. Absolutely. Karen talks about | :52:12. | :52:17. | |
choice, but whose choice? The trouble with these 140 new schools | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
is that it is the schools who will be choosing, not the parents | :52:23. | :52:25. | |
choosing the schools. That seems the wrong way round. If you have a lot | :52:26. | :52:30. | |
of selective schools, and a lot of faith schools are pretty selective, | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
if you have a lot of selective schools and a lot of them | :52:35. | :52:37. | |
increasingly under the Conservative government have become undercover | :52:38. | :52:40. | |
selective schools, it means the schools next door becoming de facto | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
secondary modern. Very few people choose the secondary modern. You | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
might choose a compensate. So the mud -- the notion of choice seems | :52:51. | :52:54. | |
wrong. And the question of money, exactly as you were saying, is that | :52:55. | :53:00. | |
1 billion has been put into capital for schools but nearly all of it is | :53:01. | :53:04. | |
going to this handful of hand-picked new free schools, and very little to | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
schools that desperately need capital funding. | :53:08. | :53:08. | |
APPLAUSE The woman in green. | :53:09. | :53:18. | |
I am a school governor, and if the Government's position really is to | :53:19. | :53:21. | |
give every child the best opportunity in education, why are we | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
seeing such drastic cuts that are going to mean redundancies and | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
bigger classes? It does not stack up. It doesn't. You have not spoken | :53:30. | :53:37. | |
on this. Are you going to remove my gag for this question, David? I | :53:38. | :53:44. | |
never tried to gag you. It is more than I could manage. Is that an | :53:45. | :53:51. | |
invitation to speak. But not too long. Education is always a work in | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
progress. Always we have to continue to work to improve our standards. | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
Karen mentioned grammar schools gave every child a chance. They don't. | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
They give a chance to those children whose parents can afford the tuition | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
for the exams to get into those schools in the first place. I have | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
to pick up on Kezia's point about the Scottish education system. Of | :54:14. | :54:16. | |
course there is work to be done, we can agree on that. But we have | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
record levels of attainment in Scotland. Not true. 93.3% of young | :54:22. | :54:27. | |
people are going into education, training or employment when they | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
leave school, and that is fantastic. 55% of young people are going to | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
university, where we have free tuition. The rich and poor gap is | :54:36. | :54:41. | |
absolutely disgraceful. There is work to be done on improving... You | :54:42. | :54:47. | |
are less likely to get into university if you are poor and | :54:48. | :54:54. | |
Scottish. The work is being done but we should not take away from the | :54:55. | :54:57. | |
success of the education system, nor the fact that you give every child a | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
chance by giving them access to free education, the pinnacle of Scottish | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
education. We are in Sunderland, so let's go back to Sunderland and take | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
a question from you, sir. I am all for grammar schools and it sounds | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
like it is the left that is trying to bring everyone down while the | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
government is trying to give everyone an opportunity to go to | :55:20. | :55:24. | |
where they need to go. The left does not like school choice. They don't | :55:25. | :55:31. | |
like toys in the NHS as well. Last question from Linda Wood. Should MPs | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
be allowed to do paid work outside of Parliament? I suspect that was | :55:37. | :55:45. | |
provoked by the news that the former Chancellor is getting ?650,000 a | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
year, is that right, as an adviser to Blackrock, on top of his salary. | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
Should that be allowed? Polly Toynbee, you first. No, and I think | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
it has pretty much done in any chance he has for the future. That | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
will be held against him. It is a huge political blunder. He says he | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
is only doing four days a month. I would not have anybody investing in | :56:10. | :56:14. | |
Blackrock if that is their idea of value for money. If you look at what | :56:15. | :56:17. | |
he did to the economy, to the country, when he was in control | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
himself, who would pay him that amount of money to advise anybody's | :56:23. | :56:24. | |
company? APPLAUSE | :56:25. | :56:31. | |
Karen Bradley, briefly, if you would. | :56:32. | :56:37. | |
We should have people from all backgrounds and experiences in | :56:38. | :56:40. | |
Parliament, and if that means they are earning additional money, as | :56:41. | :56:43. | |
long as it is declared and the voters know about it, it is down to | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
them and their voters at the election, as to whether the voters | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
support them. And 650 grand, that is his affair. If it is declared and | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
clear and open, we want people from all backgrounds. He is doing what? | :56:59. | :57:07. | |
He is taking one day off work, isn't he? Kezia. I represent Edinburgh and | :57:08. | :57:17. | |
the Lothians in the Scottish Parliament, 450,000 people I am | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
supposed to give voice to. That is a full-time job. The Labour Party in | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
Scotland is clearly opposed to second jobs, so much so that we are | :57:27. | :57:29. | |
about to legislate against it. APPLAUSE | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
Tasmina, are you in favour of legislation against second jobs? | :57:35. | :57:43. | |
Our MP work is our primary job and I don't know how you could do your job | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
properly if it was not a full-time job. Fraser Nelson. It is good to | :57:48. | :57:54. | |
let politicians get out of it, but he is being paid as much as a | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
premiership footballer. If he was one, that would be all right. Maybe | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
you should cap it, you can't more than double your salary. | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
And a reminder, we'll be in Birmingham for | :58:09. | :58:18. | |
a Special Question Time on Monday March 27th, | :58:19. | :58:21. | |
between 8.30 and 10pm, looking at Brexit when our audience | :58:22. | :58:23. | |
will be able to put their questions on what Britain after Brexit might | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
look like to some of the politicians at the heart of the process. | :58:27. | :58:29. | |
To come and take part in our audience in Bognor Regis, | :58:30. | :58:32. | |
Bangor or Birmingham go to our website, or | :58:33. | :58:34. | |
If you are listening tonight on Radio 5 live, the debate goes | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
Thanks to our panellists, particularly to Kezia, who nobly | :58:40. | :58:58. | |
drove down from Edinburgh. We are grateful to you, and to all of you | :58:59. | :59:02. | |
who came to Sunderland to take part. Until next Thursday, good night. | :59:03. | :59:33. | |
The 24-year-old man has been charged with murder. | :59:34. | :59:36. | |
You made sure an innocent man is charged! | :59:37. | :59:39. | |
What gives you the right to say that he's innocent? | :59:40. | :59:42. |