Browse content similar to 16/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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We're in the Skyline Pavilion at Butlins, | :00:00. | :00:18. | |
Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg. | :00:19. | :00:26. | |
The Labour MP, who last year resigned from the Shadow Cabinet | :00:27. | :00:29. | |
to briefly challenge Jeremy Corbyn for the leadership of | :00:30. | :00:31. | |
Joanna Cherry, who speaks for the SNP on Justice and Home Affairs. | :00:32. | :00:39. | |
The Times and Spectator columnist, Matthew Parris. | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
And the chairman of Wetherspoon, the pub chain, Tim Martin. | :00:43. | :00:57. | |
You can join the debate on Facebook, Twitter or text 83981. | :00:58. | :01:14. | |
If you push the red button, you can see the text going across the bottom | :01:15. | :01:23. | |
of the screen. Our first question from Florence Holland-Norris, | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
please. Theresa May said now is not the time for a Scottish independence | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
referendum. When is the time? Theresa May is said now is not the | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
time. When is the time, Jacob Rees-Mogg? I strongly believe the | :01:40. | :01:46. | |
people of Scotland have the right, as all nations do, to | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
self-determination. That they, if they want to be a separate country, | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
have a right to do that. I am sure the people of Scotland could be a | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
successful nation as they were before 1707. However, now is not the | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
time because we are in the midst of the Brexit negotiations, which are | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
about to begin, and there is a two-year period those will go on | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
for, and Scotland would not know what it was leaving to until those | :02:11. | :02:17. | |
are completed. Secondly, there was a referendum in 2014 which the | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
Scottish National Party said would be for a generation. I assume that | :02:22. | :02:24. | |
generations in Scotland are much the same as in England and three years | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
is a pretty short generation. APPLAUSE | :02:29. | :02:37. | |
Florence's question was, when is the time? | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
I am happy to accept the generational aspect of the call by | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
the Scottish National Party. That is perfectly reasonable. I do not think | :02:48. | :02:53. | |
you can bind future generations. So 20 years? This is a political | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
discussion. That is why we are having it! It is that, rather than | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
being dressed up as a matter of great principle. It is a political | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
discussion between Mrs Sturgeon who is a highly capable politician, who | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
is trying to pick the moment when she thinks she will have the | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
greatest chance of winning, which is completely understandable. She | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
thinks with the uncertainty there may be in the midst of the Brexit | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
negotiations, that will be the opportunity. From the point of view | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
of Mrs May, it is the counter to that, that this is an unfair choice | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
to offer to the people of Scotland at a point when they do not know | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
whether they might get a very good deal within a Brexit situation. But | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
what is going to happen to fishing and farming rights, that may well, | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
if the current devolution system remains, go to Scotland? Under the | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
current acts of Parliament, anything not reserved to Westminster goes to | :03:48. | :03:49. | |
Edinburgh. That has not been settled, whether the things at | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
brussels comeback. One final thing. It has always struck me as very awed | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
that people who want independence from Westminster want immediately to | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
come under the yoke of Brussels, and they have become the Brussels | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
National party, rather than the Scottish National Party. | :04:09. | :04:09. | |
APPLAUSE Joanna Cherry, Theresa May has said | :04:10. | :04:18. | |
that now is not the time. We heard are saying that today. When | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
is the time? I am going to agree with Theresa May that now is not the | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
time. If she had listened to what the First Minister said on Monday, | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
she announced that she intends to hold a referendum in 18 months' | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
time, approximately, because we know, of course, because Michel | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
Barnier has told us and David Davis that within 18 months of triggering | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
Article 50, an agreement will have to be reached, so there will be a | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
six-month window of opportunity for the European Parliament and other | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
parliaments to vote on whatever deal is reached. It is true we had an | :04:53. | :04:59. | |
independence referendum in September 2000 and four. But the point is that | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
circumstances have changed completely since then. -- 2014. Back | :05:03. | :05:09. | |
then, we were told the way to guarantee citizenship in the EU was | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
to vote to remain part of the UK. I realise that this part of England, | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
and England and Wales as a whole, voted to leave the European Union, | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
and I respect that. But Scotland voted to remain part of the European | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
Union, and we currently face being taken out of the EU against our | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
will. If there is one thing we learned this week it is that it is | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
generally a good idea to keep your manifesto promises. And Nicola | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
Sturgeon made a manifesto promise to the Scottish people in the Scottish | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
general election last year, that the Scottish Parliament would hold | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
another referendum if there was a material change in circumstances, | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
such as Scotland being taken out of the European Union against its will. | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
That material change of circumstances has occurred. On the | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
back of that manifesto, Nicola Sturgeon 146.5% of the vote in | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
Scotland, the highest share of vote for a government across the UK since | :06:06. | :06:13. | |
1966. -- 46.5%. Even Labour in 97 did not get that much. So Nicola | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
Sturgeon has a mandate on the back of a manifesto commitment to hold | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
this referendum. Would you agree it is sensible to wait until the Brexit | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
negotiations are finished, so the people of Scotland can see what is | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
on offer before they have a second referendum on whether to remain in | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
the UK or not? You will not be surprised that I agree with what the | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
First Minister said. Do you think Brexit should be finished? The | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
Scottish people need to make an informed choice. Wait until after | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
the negotiation? 18 months after Article 50 has been triggered, as we | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
were told by the chief negotiator for the European Union and | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
importantly by David Davies, who told us this yesterday at the Brexit | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
select committee on which I sit, that he agrees with Michel Barnier | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
that an agreement will have to be reached within 18 months of Article | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
50 being triggered. The reason is there is a two-year period and you | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
need a six-month window for the European Parliament and other member | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
states to ratify the agreement. So when I think it should be, I think | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
it should be after that degree of certainty has been reached, when we | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
see the deal that has been negotiated, and when other European | :07:26. | :07:27. | |
Union countries are getting a chance to say whether they like the deal or | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
not, Scotland should get a chance to say whether Scotland wants to take | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
that deal or be an independent country. Thank you. The man there. | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
You said that Nicola Sturgeon said that if there had been a material | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
change in circumstances they would hold a second referendum, that being | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
being dragged out of the EU. But if I am not mistaken, if you leave the | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
UK, Scotland are not automatically in the EU, so you would be coming | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
out anyway if you leave the UK, so that is contradictory to what she is | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
saying is the justification for having a new referendum. Don't | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
answer for a moment, we will come back to it. The woman in the third | :08:10. | :08:16. | |
row. When you say that the Scottish people voted on the independence | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
referendum in 2014, that they thought they were voting to stay in | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
the EU, they already knew we were going to have a referendum on the | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
UK's membership of the EU, and they voted to remain as part of the UK. | :08:31. | :08:32. | |
APPLAUSE Forgive me, I will come to you but I | :08:33. | :08:43. | |
don't want the whole debate to be dominated by your position. | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
I would like a chance to answer. If you remember them, we can come back | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
to them. Angela Eagle. I think we are divided enough at the moment and | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
this is an opportunistic thing that Nicola Sturgeon has done. | :08:57. | :08:57. | |
APPLAUSE I think the politics of grievance | :08:58. | :09:07. | |
are not going to help us come together and try to make the best | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
deal in the Brexit negotiations for all of the countries of the United | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
Kingdom, and all of the regions of the United Kingdom, to. | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
I think it's important as well to recognise that we need to work | :09:22. | :09:31. | |
together in these crucial next two years, and to launch this second | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
lead after only three years, to have an independence referendum, I think | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
is mischievous, to say the least. APPLAUSE | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
What do you expect Nicola Sturgeon to do? | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
She says there is no contact between her and Theresa May, she is not | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
being included in these things. What do you expect to do, sit it out and | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
wait while negotiations go on? I think Theresa May needs to be more | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
inclusive in the way she conducts Brexit negotiations, both with | :10:10. | :10:11. | |
Parliament, which she initially tried to exclude, and also with | :10:12. | :10:18. | |
Wales and Scotland. And I would like to see a special committee of the | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
regions setup, socially could involve them, too. I think she would | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
have a much more powerful and stronger argument to do a better | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
deal if she was much more inclusive. I think when you think about it as a | :10:32. | :10:39. | |
social Democrat, we want solidarity and working together. We don't want, | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
and don't think that our country's future is best made by dividing us | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
up and separating off one piece from another. Are you in favour of Jeremy | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
Corbyn said he was in favour of, which was that he was fine with a | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
second referendum? The Labour Party's position, and Jeremy has | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
clarified this, is that we are against a second referendum. The MSP | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
is in Scotland, Labour MSP is, will be voting against during the debate | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
at Holyrood next week. We think that the SNP should get on with doing the | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
day job and actually governed Scotland in the interests of | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
everybody. We are doing that, Angela, we are doing that. As well, | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
I don't understand why the SNP want to stay in the single market in | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
Europe, which many of us wanted to stay in, but think it is OK, in | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
order to achieve that, to leave the even bigger single market which is | :11:37. | :11:44. | |
the UK. We want to stay in both. Do you know if the Scottish people have | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
the appetite for a second referendum so soon? What is your view? I don't | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
think they should. Matthew Parris. I don't think Nicola Sturgeon actually | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
wants a second referendum before Brexit. I think she wants to call | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
for it before Brexit and she knows she can rely on Mrs May to refuse to | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
have one, so it suits both of them in lots of ways. But I do think that | :12:10. | :12:15. | |
if in a sustained way the Scottish people want a second bite at this | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
cherry, I think they should be allowed to have it. Circumstances | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
have changed. APPLAUSE | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
And here I agree with Joanna Cherry. Circumstances have changed since the | :12:27. | :12:34. | |
last referendum in Scotland. It's a completely different United Kingdom | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
that Scotland is now in. If the Scottish people want to take another | :12:39. | :12:41. | |
look at that after we have left, then I don't think any government | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
should deny that to them for very long. I must say to Jacob that for | :12:46. | :12:53. | |
those who wanted to insist that the will of the people as to whether we | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
should stay in the European Union or not should be consulted and should | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
prevail, then to deny that same privilege to the people of Scotland | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
seems to me perverse. This is a question of timing. I wouldn't begin | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
to deny the right of the Scottish people to have another referendum at | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
some point. Jacob, when you and people in the audience were having | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
their referendum on whether or not to stay part of the European Union, | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
how would you have felt if Brussels said it is up to Brussels whether | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
you have it or not, and it is up to Brussels when you have it? That is | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
what we are being told, it is up to Westminster whether or not you can | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
have it and when you have it. If anything is going to destroy the | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
union between Scotland and England, then that sort of attitude is going | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
to do it. But you want the union destroyed, don't you? Hang on. Are | :13:49. | :13:58. | |
you in favour... I don't want to destroy it, I want to create a new | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
partnership of equals. All right, you want to break it. I would like | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
to answer the audience. Coming out of the EU, would Scotland still be | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
in the European Union, we are completely in uncharted territory, | :14:13. | :14:15. | |
but at the moment Scotland is part of a member state. No other EU | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
member state has said it would veto an independent Scotland's | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
membership, and the current President... The Spanish have not | :14:25. | :14:27. | |
said that. You can check. Go home and Google. The Spanish government | :14:28. | :14:34. | |
have not said they would veto. Some voices in Spain are concerned about | :14:35. | :14:36. | |
Scottish independence because they think it might set a precedent for | :14:37. | :14:43. | |
Catalonia. But Esteban Pons, a member and a leading MEP pointed out | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
that the situation of Scotland as an independent ancient nation which | :14:49. | :14:51. | |
voluntarily entered into a union with another nation, England, is | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
completely different from breaking Catalonia away from the rest of | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
Spain. I will give you plenty of time later. Tim Martin has not yet | :15:01. | :15:03. | |
spoken and we have had court of an hour. On a practical level, it is | :15:04. | :15:10. | |
definitely right, as everyone seems to be agreed, that there should be | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
another referendum in future in these particular circumstances. On a | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
practical level also, it's very unreasonable to think that while we | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
are organising the business of getting out of the EU, organising | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
trade deals and so on, that at the same time but before you actually | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
leave there is a massive political issue which is a referendum. If | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
there is going to be one should be after Brexit has occurred and you | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
also enough time to deal with it. The second row from the back. If in | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
the next referendum that Scotland have they voted to leave, that would | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
be great because it is democracy in action. I don't understand why | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are so in favour of being part of the | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
European Union. You can't be part of the European Union and be | :16:02. | :16:02. | |
independent. All I seem to hear from the SNP | :16:03. | :16:20. | |
is about the English Government and the Scottish Parliament, | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
why then have they got 50 something MPs in the United Kingdom Parliament | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
because that's what it is. Shirley Scott, can we just | :16:28. | :16:30. | |
have your question? Is the will of the 52% worth more | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
than keeping a United Kingdom? In other words, is Brexit a price | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
worth paying if it breaks I very much want to keep | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
the United Kingdom, I think that we I think that for family ties, | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
for historic ties, it's in England's interest that the Union remains | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
and that it's also in I think it's important to us and, | :16:54. | :17:01. | |
when you think of what your country is, I think my country | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
is the United Kingdom, I would be very sad to see | :17:07. | :17:08. | |
that destroyed and it's worth bearing in mind, | :17:09. | :17:16. | |
that not far off 40% of people in Scotland voted to leave and that | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
you see in opinion polls that quite a lot of people who voted | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
to leave do not want, even if they supported independence | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
in 2014, to end up in a Scotland So things have changed a great deal | :17:28. | :17:30. | |
because of both referendums. I'm afraid, it's a price I don't | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
want to pay and I don't think I think we can both | :17:35. | :17:40. | |
have a United Kingdom and leave the European Union | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
and that is the best Joanna Cherry, do you | :17:45. | :17:46. | |
think that's possible? What Jacob just said, we can have | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
a United Kingdom and leave the EU? Well, the difficulty is that | :17:50. | :17:58. | |
Theresa May has been completely intransigent at looking at any | :17:59. | :18:01. | |
of the compromise proposals the Scottish Government have put | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
forward in the light To answer the lady in the audience's | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
question a moment ago, the reason why we have 59 Scottish | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
MPs, 56 of whom are SNP, at Westminster is because Scottish | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
Parliament's is devolved and only has powers over certain things - | :18:19. | :18:20. | |
defence, foreign affairs, macro-economic policy, | :18:21. | :18:32. | |
immigration are all at Westminster. So that's why we presently have | :18:33. | :18:33. | |
Scottish MPs at Westminster. Indeed, I'm proud to represent | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
the people of Edinburgh South But I don't think it will be | :18:37. | :18:38. | |
possible to preserve the UK because Now, three months ago, | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
the Scottish Government put forward a set of compromise proposals | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
whereby Scotland would remain part of the United Kingdom, | :18:47. | :18:48. | |
but also part of the single market and Theresa May has | :18:49. | :18:51. | |
refused to discuss those proposals and yesterday, | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
when I was questioning David Davis, he ridiculed me when I suggested | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
that it would be at least courtsey for the Government in London | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
to respond to the Government In the last independence referendum, | :19:04. | :19:05. | |
we were told in Scotland that we are an equal partner in this | :19:06. | :19:12. | |
union, it doesn't feel like equality when your views | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
are completely overlooked. We were asked not to leave the UK, | :19:16. | :19:17. | |
but to stay and lead It doesn't look like we're leading | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
the United Kingdom when we're It's not the politics of grievance, | :19:22. | :19:29. | |
Angela, it's the politics We're simply asking | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
for our voice to be heard. I just want to make one | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
further point, David, because the people in the audience | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
are raising points. No, I have to keep stopping you, | :19:45. | :19:46. | |
only because there are four other people on the panel and a number | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
of people in the audience. I know you have a lot | :19:50. | :19:52. | |
you would like to say and I can't just allow you to take the programme | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
over with what you're saying, Very happy not to take | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
the programme over, but I would like the opportunity | :20:00. | :20:02. | |
to answer specific points. I'm sure the audience would | :20:03. | :20:04. | |
like their points to be answered. It strikes me we're spending | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
an awful lot of time talking about, should Scotland | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
have another referendum. I agree, it's the Scottish people's | :20:14. | :20:15. | |
rights to have that. Right now, we are getting | :20:16. | :20:17. | |
ready to leave the EU and it's far more important, | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
I feel, and surely you must agree, that Scotland and Wales and England | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
all work together so that we get what we want when we leave the EU | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
and then afterwards devote the time to Scotland and then do you then | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
want to have a referendum? What currency are you going to use | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
if you get your referendum What currency have you | :20:33. | :20:42. | |
got, the groat is it, It's perhaps worthwhile reminding | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
ourselves that viewers in Scotland are watching this programme tonight | :20:47. | :21:05. | |
and we, perhaps, shouldn't ridicule them in the same way that I wouldn't | :21:06. | :21:08. | |
wish to ridicule people Unlike the British Government, | :21:09. | :21:10. | |
when we hold our next referendum in Scotland, | :21:11. | :21:21. | |
we will have a detailed plan and we will set out plan about how | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
we propose to secure Scotland's We will set out our plan on how | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
we propose to secure a rosy economic future for Scotland and we will set | :21:30. | :21:39. | |
out our plan on the currency then and we're working | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
on that at the moment. Right. | :21:43. | :21:44. | |
on this programme tonight, You did say you wouldn't | :21:45. | :21:51. | |
be tied to the pound, We probably wouldn't | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
want to be tied to the pound? No, I said the pound might be | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
a little bit less attractive if it was plummeting after Brexit, | :22:00. | :22:01. | |
as it is now. We do have one of the worst | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
performing currencies But I take no pleasure | :22:06. | :22:07. | |
in that because the pound is important to the whole | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
of the United Kingdom. I think there were two things | :22:12. | :22:13. | |
in the Scottish referendum which were unhelpful | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
in the overall debate. One was that Scotland would go | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
to hell in a handcart There are countries | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
the size of Scotland - the Republic of Ireland, | :22:25. | :22:32. | |
New Zealand, Singapore - similar economies which have | :22:33. | :22:34. | |
done extremely well. But the other point that no-one | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
grasped the nettle in respect of - if you want your own country | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
and your own Government, you have to have your own currency, | :22:44. | :22:52. | |
a currency and a government sides of the same coin | :22:53. | :23:00. | |
and so I think that that is a nettle that wasn't grasped at the time | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
by the SNP Time. We've also seen the problems | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
in Greece, in Portugal, etc and in Europe, as a result | :23:12. | :23:13. | |
of trying to have a European currency with no | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
government behind it. We've had a lot of questions | :23:17. | :23:17. | |
about the Scottish referendum, We've also had a lot | :23:18. | :23:24. | |
of questions about Brexit itself I'd like to take this | :23:25. | :23:26. | |
question from Sue Bringloe, please, which is looking | :23:27. | :23:28. | |
at the Brexit negotiations. In light of David Davis's admission | :23:29. | :23:30. | |
that no economic assessment has been carried out on the effects of a hard | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
Brexit, should the triggering This was before the committee, | :23:35. | :23:37. | |
Joanna Cherry, that So, since he doesn't | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
have any idea what might happen if it doesn't work, | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
should he delay until he has worked Well, it was an astonishing | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
admission at the Select Committee this week, from the Secretary | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
of State for Exiting the European Union, that he's done | :23:56. | :23:57. | |
absolutely no analytical work on the costs of the fallback | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
position - which is exiting the European Union without any kind | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
of deal - that they haven't done any work to see what that would actually | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
cost and what the implications And yet, we have a Prime Minister | :24:16. | :24:18. | |
who's gone round the country saying - no deal is better than a bad deal, | :24:19. | :24:25. | |
but they haven't actually It seems that David Davis comes | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
from the Boris Johnson school Don't do any of it and hope you can | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
bluff your way through. Then following the Budget | :24:36. | :24:44. | |
and this screeching, embarrassing U-turn on national | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
insurance contributions that the Chancellor has put | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
us through this week, are we going to let these | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
people do the Brexit negotiations which are far, | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
far more difficult than budget, a simple Budget, with 28 things | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
in it, and he gets that wrong. So, I'm seriously worried now | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
about how this is going. I actually think - | :25:09. | :25:10. | |
...needed to stand up and say something then, | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
on a Wednesday. He stands there and | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
everyone turns off. You've got mobile phones, | :25:20. | :25:25. | |
you've got everything. You're saying there - | :25:26. | :25:27. | |
stand up to Theresa May. You've got your own leader, | :25:28. | :25:37. | |
and he doesn't do anything. I know you don't like him, | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
but you're going to Well, I don't think anyone | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
can accuse me of not But the important thing, I think, | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
for our Prime Minister is that she doesn't try to do this | :25:51. | :26:01. | |
in the way she's begun by doing it. She's got to bring | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
the nation together, She's got to take us forward | :26:06. | :26:07. | |
and she has to do that by actually including everybody, | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
not this high-handed - leave it to us, we don't want | :26:14. | :26:15. | |
to talk to you about it attitude. I think, as a country, | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
we will then have a much better I'm deeply worried about | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
how they've started. Let me remind just you of | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
Sue's question, Jacob. In the light of David Davis's | :26:27. | :26:40. | |
admission no economic assessment has been carried out on the effects | :26:41. | :26:42. | |
of a hard Brexit, should I'm so pleased that | :26:43. | :26:45. | |
Mr Davis said this. Think back to the referendum | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
campaign, the Bank of England, the OECD, the IMF all told us | :26:50. | :26:51. | |
we were ruined. We were going to have a punishment | :26:52. | :26:54. | |
Budget within days of daring to vote All these clever economists got | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
the whole thing completely wrong. What we don't want to do is to think | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
that we can model economically what may happen with any degree | :27:03. | :27:10. | |
of precision in two years' time, depending on factors | :27:11. | :27:13. | |
that are uncertain. We can't do that and it is a false | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
position to put yourself in, What you want to do is to look | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
at the general picture How do we trade with 60% | :27:22. | :27:27. | |
of the world already? Would we need to apply tariffs | :27:28. | :27:30. | |
on goods coming into this country That would be a voluntary | :27:31. | :27:36. | |
choice for us, there So you can make an intelligent | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
Judgment without getting in all these people who got it | :27:42. | :27:49. | |
so hopeless wrong only a year ago and I think it's worth | :27:50. | :27:52. | |
learning from experience. ..are you talking about accepting | :27:53. | :27:54. | |
10% tariffs for our car industry, which would put the automotive | :27:55. | :28:01. | |
industry at a huge disadvantage? And, between 30% and 40% | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
tariffs which the WTO has On those two points, | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
we've already had a bigger depreciation in the pound | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
than in the tariff that would apply to cars | :28:15. | :28:16. | |
and on agriculture we are only 55% So that if those tariffs | :28:17. | :28:19. | |
were imposed on British beef, for example, and we opposed 70% | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
tariffs, because they're 70% on beef, on Irish beef, | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
that would be fantastic I'm not saying we should do this, | :28:28. | :28:30. | |
but we would be in a very strong position to retaliate if vicious | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
tariffs were imposed on us. We have a huge trade deficit | :28:37. | :28:38. | |
with the European Union. The person in the spectacles there, | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
in the middle, yes. Surely the panel would accept, | :28:43. | :28:48. | |
maybe bar the two socialist, that free enterprise and unilateral | :28:49. | :28:54. | |
free trade, as proven throughout the Victorian era and indeed | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
with the great man Robert Peel, is extremely effective and British | :28:58. | :28:59. | |
business and free enterprise will always overcome trade barriers | :29:00. | :29:01. | |
put up by other countries and that specialisation | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
is the key to success? Well, I'm afraid, I have to agree | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
with Jacob Rees-Mogg. It is absolutely impossible to do | :29:10. | :29:16. | |
any kind of assessment of what might happen to us if we crash out | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
of the European Union And it breaks my heart, | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
Jacob, that you and your friends are taking us | :29:23. | :29:30. | |
down this road. So you think the outcome is going | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
to be falling off the cliff? We may get a very hard Brexit, | :29:34. | :29:41. | |
we may get a crashing out It's perfectly clear I think, | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
to almost everybody who travels on the continent, that our European | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
partners are not going I negotiate a lot of trading | :29:53. | :29:55. | |
agreements over the years and the one thing, as I think some | :29:56. | :30:05. | |
people have said here, Jacob said, is you can't guarantee the outcome | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
in advance and there are so many variables it may not | :30:10. | :30:12. | |
be worthwhile trying. I think our best approach | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
with the EU is to tay - we're happy to do a free trade deal | :30:17. | :30:29. | |
with you or we'll trade under World Trade Organisation | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
rules, its's up to you. It's under those circumstances | :30:34. | :30:35. | |
we'll get the best deal. If everyone says, we're desperate | :30:36. | :30:37. | |
for a free trade deal, But if we don't impose any tariffs - | :30:38. | :30:39. | |
at the moment the EU is not a free trading organisation, | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
for 7% of the world it's free trade, for the other 93% | :30:46. | :30:47. | |
there are huge tariffs. We can drop the prices that people | :30:48. | :30:49. | |
pay in the shops, in Bognor Regis, by 7% or 8% from the end | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
of the Brexit negotiations if just don't charge any tariffs | :30:55. | :30:57. | |
for third party countries. The woman up there. It might sound a | :30:58. | :31:19. | |
bit simple and it seems obvious to me that surely a lot of these | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
conversations and decisions should have been spoken about and made | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
before we were given the choice to vote. | :31:29. | :31:28. | |
APPLAUSE Joanna Cherry, do you agree? | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
I wholeheartedly agree with you, madam. Yesterday's performance by | :31:36. | :31:42. | |
David Davies, bit for the EU select committee was quite extraordinary, | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
and all credit to the chair of the existing EU select committee, | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
Hillary Benn, and also -- and also, Angela's colleague, or putting David | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
Davies on the spot. Not only did he tell us he had made no economic | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
assessment of the effect of crashing out of the EU with no deal, but he | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
also went on to say that yes, if we fell back and relied on WTO rules, | :32:08. | :32:15. | |
30-40% would be slapped on British agricultural exports, 10% on car | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
exports. He went on to say that yes, he had not really thought about it | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
but now that it was put to him, yes, we would all lose our health | :32:24. | :32:29. | |
insurance when travelling abroad. He also said yes, the financial | :32:30. | :32:31. | |
services sector which is so important to London and Edinburgh, | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
which I represent, will lose its passport in rights. He also agreed | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
with Hillary Benn that we would fall out of the EU United States open | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
skies agreement which would make airfares more expensive. I respect | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
the fact that the people of England and Wales voted to leave the | :32:49. | :32:51. | |
European Union but I am sure the people of England and Wales did not | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
vote to make their country poorer and did not vote to make their | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
country have less free trade. It might surprise you to hear this, as | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
a Scottish Nationalists I'm a fan of English wine. You have some great | :33:06. | :33:11. | |
wine in this area of West Sussex. If you crash out with no deal, 32% | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
tariffs for export of that wine will be slapped on. These are the things | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
that David Davis now admits to be the case but were not discussed | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
before the referendum. Like the lady who asked the question, I am worried | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
that we seem to be proceeding... I have two stop you again, I am sorry. | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
Thank you. Given the incredible uncertainty with regards to leaving | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
the European Union, does it not make sense to have a second referendum | :33:43. | :33:51. | |
when the final deal is known. Well, secondary friend is being all the | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
rage, why not? I certainly think, and I voted in the House of Commons | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
for a meaningful vote at least in the House of Commons, a proper | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
debate about the kind of deal the government come back with. I think | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
that is right. Whether that be just a vote in the House of Commons after | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
a debate, or a second referendum, you can make an announcement for | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
either. Do you mean a House of Commons vote of the kind that could | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
remove certain parts of the agreement, or one which is just take | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
it or leave it? We wanted a meaningful vote which by definition | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
does not mean absence choice. You have the whole agreement, or | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
absolutely nothing. We would want there to be a vote when we could | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
send the government back to the negotiating table. We can argue | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
until the cows come home about whether there should be this or that | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
vote in parliament and at what point there should be a vote. It will all | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
depend on how public opinion approaches the emerging terms of the | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
deal that we are going to get. And if the public turn against what | :34:56. | :34:58. | |
looks like the kind of deal that we are going to turn against, believe | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
me, Parliament will get a vote, Parliament will demand a vote. MPs | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
are pretty pusillanimous people. They tend to put their fingers up to | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
the wind and see which way public opinion is growing. Isn't that their | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
job? It is. If public opinion is blowing against this deal there will | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
be a vote in parliament and the government will not be able to | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
ignore it. The people have spoken and have declared that two plus two | :35:27. | :35:40. | |
equals five. Jacob Rees-Mogg. Matthew Parris says if public | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
opinion starts to turn against what is negotiated, Parliament will | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
change its mind. Do you agree? I take a completely different role for | :35:50. | :35:52. | |
members of Parliament. We are there to stand up for what we believe in, | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
put it to the electorate, and if they wanted, they will vote for us. | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
I do not think it is about being a weather vane of the latest opinion | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
poll which is probably wrong anyway. Parliament will have lots of votes | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
but the British people voted in a referendum to leave. That decision | :36:10. | :36:15. | |
needs to be implemented. What happens after we leave is going to | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
be open to endless negotiation and votes, but the fundamental point is | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
that that referendum was authoritative. | :36:24. | :36:23. | |
APPLAUSE Doesn't this exactly show us that | :36:24. | :36:34. | |
referendums with a yes or no decision are so difficult to bring | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
to the general public? I think this is exactly the reason | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
why the Scottish referendum has got to be a further generation, because | :36:45. | :36:47. | |
I don't genuinely believe we are in a position to know the full facts. | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
There are so many different questions and we are not being told | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
exactly what those things are. Well, we know we are not getting ?350 | :36:59. | :37:06. | |
million a week for the NHS. As Jacob says, he prefers the net figure. We | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
have a lot of Hamza and we have other questions. Instead of asking | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
questions of the panel, if I could hear your opinions. The woman up | :37:16. | :37:28. | |
there. What is your view? I just wondered if the MPs got to debate | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
it, if they would vote with their conscience, or vote as they were | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
told. It was your question, wasn't it? What is your view? We are | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
stronger together. The MPs are not representing us very well. They are | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
doing what they are told by the whips, not what they believe in. The | :37:47. | :37:53. | |
man in red on the gangway. This is probably a moot point, as if Marine | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
Le Pen wins in May, she has said she will come out of the euro, which is | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
the cement of the European Union and it will come crashing down. In the | :38:04. | :38:11. | |
front row. I think as the Americans are saying that the war is too | :38:12. | :38:14. | |
dangerous to be left to the generals, what we heard today from | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
Jacob is so frightening that perhaps Brexit is too dangerous to be left | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
to the Conservatives, because it is the generation of our children and | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
their children. It is becoming ideological and not what is going to | :38:30. | :38:36. | |
happen in the negotiation. I'm sorry to disagree but I think it is a huge | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
economic opportunity for us that, as Tim pointed out, the EU is free | :38:43. | :38:49. | |
trade for 7% of the world. 93% is kept out by tariff barriers. We want | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
to be trading with the whole world, not focusing on a narrow Europeans | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
fear. That is a generational choice. We already do half of our trade with | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
our nearest neighbours, democracies in the European Union. That is | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
because of the tariffs. We can trade with the rest of the world, too. We | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
have enormous tariffs on the rest of the world. 32% on the wine in Tim | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
Bosz 's, 17% on beef. We keep out of the rest of the world and make goods | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
more expensive British consumers. I have heard a lot from the panel | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
about England and Scotland. The UK includes two other countries. Where | :39:32. | :39:38. | |
is their voice tonight? What is your view? We are stronger together. As | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
an English man, I would like to have a vote as to whether or not I want | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
Scotland to be part of the United Kingdom. | :39:49. | :39:48. | |
APPLAUSE The woman at the back. | :39:49. | :40:01. | |
I think we have a lesson to learn about intersection, which is that | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
when we are talking about racism, white people should be quiet. When | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
we are talking about sexism, men should be quiet. And when we are | :40:10. | :40:12. | |
talking about Scottish independence, English people should be quiet. On | :40:13. | :40:19. | |
that note, I am going to move on. We will have more debate on this. We | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
are going to be in Wales next week. We're in Bangor next week and then | :40:25. | :40:31. | |
on Monday 27th March at 8.30pm we've a special Question Time | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
from Birmingham - What happens once | :40:35. | :40:36. | |
Article 50 is triggered? And Question Time from | :40:37. | :40:42. | |
Carlisle is on March 30th. I will announce all of that at the | :40:43. | :40:56. | |
end, which will make you fall asleep, but the details are on | :40:57. | :41:04. | |
screen of how to apply. Let's go onto a different point. Isabella | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
Spooner. Should Philip Hammond resign? A nice, straightforward | :41:09. | :41:15. | |
question. Should Philip Hammond resign after a Budget that lasted a | :41:16. | :41:22. | |
week. Angela Eagle. Well, he has been put in a pretty humiliating | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
position. We have had this huge, screeching U-turn on one of the main | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
points of what was meant to be a very simple budget. He was meant to | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
be a safe pair of hands and has fluffed his Budget. And the more | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
astonishing thing was how it emerged that he had not realised he was | :41:41. | :41:47. | |
breaking a manifesto commitment. Now, I read the Tory manifesto but | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
apparently he didn't. You did not leap up and down immediately, it was | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
Laura Kuenssberg at the BBC who spotted it according to Hammond. | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
That is absolutely true, he was told by a BBC journalist that he had | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
broken his manifesto commitment. He had not discussed any of this with | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
colleagues. The Cabinet had not noticed. And we are putting these | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
people in charge of Brexit negotiations. Was the policy right? | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
Well, the interesting thing about the policy and the problem with the | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
way he has botched it, we have a huge issue in the future with the | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
idea that people can be made to be apparently self-employed and opt out | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
for a minor tax advantage of their employment rights. Many people are | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
told they have to be self-employed before they are given work, which | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
means they cannot get access to sick pay, to holiday pay, to maternity or | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
paternity pay. This is affecting our tax base, so he was right, in my | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
view, to look at this whole area. But because he introduced the tax | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
before talking about the benefits, and botched the reform, he has been | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
dragged to the House of Commons by his own side and basically announced | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
that even though there is billions of pounds of tax revenue at risk, | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
that he can't do anything about it for the rest of the parliament. I | :43:12. | :43:14. | |
think his credibility is going south. | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
In business we frequently get things wrong. In fact, almost every day and | :43:19. | :43:25. | |
if we had someone like Theresa May around to give us a good telling off | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
we would change our mind more quickly. We always say within | :43:29. | :43:36. | |
Wetherspoon it's fine to zig-zag to a good conclusion. There is nothing | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
wrong with making a mistake, you have to own up and then get on with | :43:42. | :43:43. | |
it. APPLAUSE | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
A woman is shouting at you. It's OK to make a mistake even if you are | :43:49. | :43:51. | |
the Chancellor? Surely this is an example of incompetence? No. | :43:52. | :43:57. | |
Chancellor's make mistakes all the time. The amaze thing about | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
democracy is that it works. We have all these debates. We have debates | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
in Parliament. Angela gets on the case, so does Jacob and that's why | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
it's such a great system. The problem with the European system is | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
that there are five unelected presidents. You can't deselect | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
President Juncker. Great to have our democracy when we can point out | :44:21. | :44:27. | |
Philip Hammond's mistakes. He's lost trust in the public. I think it's | :44:28. | :44:33. | |
unacceptable Philip Hammond should have been humiliated in this way. By | :44:34. | :44:36. | |
the Prime Minister snoochl by the Prime Minister. He must have | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
considered Respublica Iing nation in the last couple of days. She must | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
also take ownership for what was in the Budget statement. She saw it, | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
presumably the Cabinet discussed it. How it has been allowed to arise the | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
impression that it was all Philip Hammond and nobody else seems to me | :44:55. | :45:01. | |
wrong. I think any Prime Minister who hue mulliataways her Prime | :45:02. | :45:03. | |
Minister in the way this happened will find that revenge may well be | :45:04. | :45:11. | |
served, as it was on Margaret Thatcher, cold in the future. He is | :45:12. | :45:18. | |
a grown up guy he can take a chuff around the cheeks from the Prime | :45:19. | :45:21. | |
Minister. For the Chancellor to resign at the moment, at this chit | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
critical moment when we are about to trigger Article 50 would be against | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
the national interest. He will be hurting and smarting. I'm surprised | :45:31. | :45:37. | |
he would be that sensitive. He will have his revenge. Politicians are | :45:38. | :45:47. | |
sensitive. Are they? Yes. You insisted this measure be blocked. I | :45:48. | :45:49. | |
presume you were one of them? I said so in the Budget debate, that | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
followed the Chancellor's Budget, I think that you need to look | :45:54. | :45:56. | |
at the whole issue of national insurance and disguised | :45:57. | :46:06. | |
self-employment in a proper way and have a fundamental | :46:07. | :46:08. | |
reform of national contributory insurance, it's | :46:09. | :46:09. | |
basically an income tax and look at What about the point | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
that Matthew made? I'm about to come | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
to Mr Parris' point. I do not think, as the lady | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
asked, that Mr Hammond I actually think there | :46:21. | :46:22. | |
is an enormous wisdom in being able to admit that | :46:23. | :46:29. | |
you have made a mistake All of us, in our daily lives, | :46:30. | :46:32. | |
make mistakes and we all know that it is better to correct that | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
mistake and reverse it quickly rather than waiting | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
and having to reverse anyway. The lady who asks about | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
the Chancellor - shouldn't the Well, somebody said | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
of Elizabeth I, a man called Wentworth, he said - | :46:52. | :46:57. | |
none is without fault, no | :46:58. | :46:58. | |
not our gracious Queen. For his pains, he got sent | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
to the Tower of London. We all make mistakes | :47:04. | :47:05. | |
whether we are the Prime Minister or the Chancellor - | :47:06. | :47:14. | |
I'll exclude Her Majesty from this - but we all make mistakes | :47:15. | :47:17. | |
and we are best off if we reverse Cannot just hear the pleasure oozing | :47:18. | :47:23. | |
from Jacob Rees-Mogg as he patronises Philip Hammond | :47:24. | :47:30. | |
and says that we all make mistakes. The fact is, the leavers don't | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
like Philip Hammond. They don't think he's a sufficiently | :47:36. | :47:37. | |
hard lever and they are enjoying the humiliation | :47:38. | :47:40. | |
of the Chancellor. I'm so sorry, this is a wrong | :47:41. | :47:41. | |
obsession with Europe that I used to be accused of when I was | :47:42. | :47:44. | |
a eurosceptic before we had the vote This had nothing what ver to do | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
with Brexit or anything like that. It seemed to me a bad tax move | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
and one that was not Why wasn't it spotted then | :47:53. | :47:55. | |
if it the climb down commitment that will he didn't | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
want to break, why did nobody, the Prime Minister, | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
the Cabinet, you... I think the error was that they | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
thought that the Bill that had made it impossible to change national | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
insurance covered the manifesto I think they looked at a more recent | :48:14. | :48:15. | |
document rather than the original document | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
and that's a perfectly... The 1922 Committee were told that | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
willed there would be no reversal of this when they were complaining | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
about it last week. There were Conservative | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
ministers, on the TV, There are a lot of people | :48:35. | :48:36. | |
who won't forget this huge mess. But that's deeply | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
unrealistic and I hope that, when the time comes | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
and I'm in opposition, Everybody knows that a policy | :48:46. | :48:56. | |
reversal cannot be half admitted. You can't say - well, we might | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
reverse it tomorrow or we might not. You have to wait until the point | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
the reversal is announced. Of course we all make mistakes, | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
but this was a colossal mistake. It was the centrepieces | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
of his Budget. And now that he's had | :49:13. | :49:13. | |
to do the screeching U-turn on it, there's | :49:14. | :49:15. | |
a He didn't mention | :49:16. | :49:17. | |
Brexit at all in his Budget, which most of us found quite | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
surprising and concerning. But this is the man | :49:23. | :49:24. | |
who's going to be in charge of the United Kingdom's | :49:25. | :49:26. | |
finances as we go through the Brexit process, and he made | :49:27. | :49:29. | |
a colossal mistake in his Budget. He seems to have completely | :49:30. | :49:32. | |
forgotten about a manifesto promise. What happened here was, | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
that the Tories rebelled Now, I'm sat between two Tories | :49:37. | :49:38. | |
tonight and they'll know better than I do that Tory rebellions normally | :49:39. | :49:47. | |
tend to be a bit slow burn, but this You could tell from | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
the faces sitting behind the Chancellor as he announced this | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
that people weren't happy about it This change would have had | :49:56. | :49:57. | |
a major impact on small I'm sure there are many | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
of you sitting in the audience tonight who would have | :50:03. | :50:05. | |
been impacted by this. At the very least, | :50:06. | :50:08. | |
if you are going to make such a huge change in policy, you should carry | :50:09. | :50:11. | |
out some consultation with business Clearly, this was a smart idea that | :50:12. | :50:14. | |
was thought up to balance the books | :50:15. | :50:23. | |
in ignorance of a manifesto commitment that's had | :50:24. | :50:25. | |
to Yes, in normal times, | :50:26. | :50:26. | |
to answer Isabelle's question, in normal times one | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
would think that this was a resignation matter but, | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
unfortunately, we're not I don't think the public | :50:36. | :50:37. | |
agree with that. I think the public | :50:38. | :50:40. | |
think this was OK, It's about the ego, according | :50:41. | :50:42. | |
to Matthew and really and the sensitivity of politician, | :50:43. | :50:52. | |
we don't go for this. I'm sorry, we have only | :50:53. | :50:54. | |
got five or six minutes Are we asking the | :50:55. | :51:01. | |
impossible from the NHS Are we asking the impossible from | :51:02. | :51:16. | |
the NHS to deliver with the money it has? Well, yes. You have to be | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
swift, I'm afraid on this. I think so. There is going to be a real | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
terms cut in the next two, three years in NHS budgets. NHS staff, who | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
keep the whole thing going, haven't had a pay rise of any amount for | :51:34. | :51:41. | |
years. The huge cuts to social care, which have happened since 2010, | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
nearly ?5 billion worth of cuts to social care, have actually put | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
enormous extra pressure on the NHS. Of the other week I did a shift with | :51:51. | :51:57. | |
the paramedics in my local area, and they are constantly on the go. As | :51:58. | :52:03. | |
soon as they deliver patients into A and clean the ambulance and get | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
ready to go again, and say they are available, they are called. It's | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
massive, increasing pressure. We have to realise that we've got to | :52:13. | :52:18. | |
fund our NHS properly. We have got to ensure we fund social care | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
properly and ensure those areas work together more otherwise we will lose | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
our NHS in the next few years. Right. | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
APPLAUSE Tim Martin. I'm worried the NHS is a | :52:31. | :52:44. | |
sacred car if you have a car firm or agriculture country people compare | :52:45. | :52:47. | |
it with other countries and firms in the world. We have to start saying - | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
how does it work in France, Germany, Australia? I think they have better | :52:54. | :52:56. | |
systems than us. They spend a lot more money than us. They do. We | :52:57. | :53:00. | |
can't go on like this. It doesn't work any more. No-one wants to say | :53:01. | :53:04. | |
that. The woman up there on the back there. Hello. It's the most | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
efficient health in the world. It's not - Cheapest. It's not a car firm, | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
it is keeps us all going. It's vial vitally important to this country. | :53:16. | :53:17. | |
It's not the same as another industry. It's being treated as | :53:18. | :53:22. | |
another industry. It's being under-funded. Personally - Sold off. | :53:23. | :53:28. | |
Exactly. We need to protect it. We know what is happening to it. Is it | :53:29. | :53:35. | |
impossible to deliver? The money for the NHS goes up year in year out. It | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
was ringfenced in the age of austerity. It's getting another ?10 | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
billion before the end of the Parliament. I don't think endlessly | :53:45. | :53:46. | |
providing more money is ultimately going to be the answer. There are | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
enormous strains. The ageing population, one million more people | :53:53. | :53:58. | |
over the age of 75 since 2010. In seven years. Why are we cutting | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
social care? Social care is also getting more money. The Labour Party | :54:03. | :54:05. | |
always thinks it's about money. It's not. It's going to be about | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
delivery. We will have to think seriously how we deliver health and | :54:12. | :54:13. | |
social social care in this country. We have to be open to reform. I | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
don't know what that. Is I don't have a policy prescription, but I | :54:18. | :54:20. | |
think we need a national conversation about how we are going | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
to develop this because there isn't endless money. There isn't a money | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
tree that is going to pour billions in. It has been protected in a time | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
of austerity, but there are always demands for more. An ageing | :54:33. | :54:35. | |
population, better types of medicine, on it goes. We need a | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
serious conversation about how we are going to deal with this. Would | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
you like to see or examine the possibility of a tax specifically | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
for the NHS? No, absolutely not. They are a great mistaking they lead | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
to the wrong amount of money, too much or too little. Too much gets | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
pinched and the two little has to be topped up. Governments cheat on | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
those taxes. I'd like to ask what the Government is going to do to | :55:02. | :55:07. | |
provide more GPs? I work in a GP surgery and over the last three | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
years we've struggled to even get locoms to come in because of the | :55:13. | :55:15. | |
amount of paperwork that the Government put in place. So there is | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
actually less time for patient care and then the Government say - we | :55:21. | :55:26. | |
need doctors for 24-hours a day, we should make them work longer. They | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
work hard. They work long. Is it money or the administration that's | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
in the way? Both. You need both. We are asking the impossible from the | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
NHS. We have always asked the impossible from the NHS. The NHS has | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
always struggled, always wanted more money, politicians have never been | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
able to give it as much money as they want. The result is that we | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
have a good second rate health service in Britain for the cost of | :55:53. | :55:57. | |
what would in any other country be a fourth rate health service. We get | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
very good value out of the NHS. APPLAUSE | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
But it's under strain. It's fraying. We must find new sources of of | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
revenue. Just to cut to the quick, I think people like me ought to have | :56:13. | :56:15. | |
to pay something towards our healthcare because I can afford to. | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
APPLAUSE Joanna. Yes, the Tories are asking | :56:21. | :56:27. | |
the impossible of the NHS in England and Wales because they under fund | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
it. Health sl devolved in Scotland. We have pumped record funding into | :56:33. | :56:35. | |
the NHS in Scotland. We have the best A waiting times in the United | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
Kingdom. We have more staff per head than the NHS in England and Wales | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
and you see no junior doctors striking in our NHS. What are the | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
outcomes? The Tory Government should take a leaf out of the Scottish | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
Government's book and fund the NHS in England and Wales properly. What | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
are the outcomes? What is your point, Matthew? What are the | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
outcomes in health in Scotland? Health in Scotland is improving, | :57:02. | :57:04. | |
Matthew. Health in Scotland is improving. For example, ladies and | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
gentlemen, prescriptions in Scotland are free. Vulnerable, disabled or | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
elderly people get their prescriptions for free. What are the | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
outcomes. You sir, your hand has been up all evening. Yes. Brief | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
point we have to end. I think the NHS is one of the most fundamentally | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
important things about the UK. I think it's far more important than | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
Brexit. It's far more important than anything. People should have more | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
say into what the NHS delivers and how it is run. I think it's far more | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
important. Most people here would probably agree. Everyone here has | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
and is going to use it. Way more people. | :57:40. | :57:41. | |
APPLAUSE Thank you. All right. Thank you very | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
much indeed. We have stop there because our time is up. Apologies to | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
the many hands in the air if you can apologise to a hand. | :57:51. | :57:53. | |
Our time is up. We are going to be in Bangor next week. On Monday, 27th | :57:54. | :57:59. | |
March we have this special one-and-a-half hour programme on | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
Britain after Brexit. It's coming from Birmingham. 8. 30pm on BBC One. | :58:03. | :58:07. | |
We don't know whether Article 50 will have been triggered on that | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
Monday or the day after. That is the context of it. A normal, no such | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
thing as a standard Question Time, a normal or a regular Question Time in | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
Carlisle on the 30th March. So if you can come to any of those | :58:22. | :58:24. | |
programmes you will be very, very welcome. That is Bangor on the 23rd, | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
Birmingham on the 27, Carlisle on the 30th. You can apply on the | :58:30. | :58:38. | |
website. It's on the screen. Or call O330 123 99 88. This debate will go | :58:39. | :58:44. | |
on Radio 5Live on Question Time Extra Time. My thanks to my panel | :58:45. | :58:50. | |
and all of you who came to take part. From Bognor Regis, until next | :58:51. | :58:54. | |
Thursday, good night. The laws in the state of Florida | :58:55. | :59:21. | |
are very harsh. The good men and women of | :59:22. | :59:24. | |
law enforcement | :59:25. | :59:27. |