10/02/2017 Select Committees

Welcome to the transport Select Committee. Could we have your name

and organisations, please. Good afternoon. I am director for global

safety Anfield investigation and certification for General Motors,

Europe. Good afternoon, I am the vice-president for GM quality in

Europe. Good afternoon. Helen Ford head of Government relations and

public policy for general moaters in the UK. Thank you very much.

How many fires in the Zafira model B are you aware of, who can tell me,

how many? Let me check. Maybe I can take this. There are

about 287 fires associated to heating and ventilation systems. How

many fires in total are you aware of? For ZafiraB? We just wanted to

confirm which model you were referring to? I think it's a pretty

obvious question to start with, isn't it? This is the reason that

you are here today. The first simple question is how many fires are you

aware of in ZafiraB? Well, we are aware of the 287 fires that have

brought to our attention. 276 fires. Right. -- -- 287. How many of these

have been fully investigated by our engineers? Well, we have

investigated a large number by the engineers. How many? I have to come

back on this one, please. You know, it's a little odd, you have come

here to talk about this subject and this is pretty straightforward

information, isn't it? How many fires, how many have been

investigated by your engineers, you don't know? Well, actually there is

59 cases I know that have been investigated. So 59 out of, what did

you say, 28... 287. Doesn't sound a lot, does it, what's happened to the

others? Maybe what we can say on that one, before the media attention

we were only informed about very few of these cases and after the media

we got within, I don't know, four to six weeks, we got aware of more than

100 additional cases which we have not had a chance to inspect on. That

was sometime ago, wasn't it? The media attention was sometime ago. So

how many have you investigated? Can no one tell me how many have been

investigated by your engineers? The recalls were older vehicles and they

had been scratched before we could investigate them. The figure that

was referred to, the 49, the 59 vehicles of the 59 vehicles that we

have investigated. We have been able to see ourselves. What's happened to

the others? 59 you have investigated and what is that over 200 you

haven't investigated. So what's happened to those? Several of those

vehicles, number one we couldn't get access to. A lot of the vehicles are

even scrapped before we can get there. So, for instance, I know

about one case where we sent out our fire investigation team but actually

the vehicle was scrapped before we could get access and really do the

detailed analysis. When you said you couldn't get access to them, what

does that mean exactly? In what way couldn't you get access to them?

First of all, if there is a fire case and the customer needs to ask

their insurance company and permission for them, for us to do

the inspections, without that permission we can not do the

inspection. Did you seek permission? Yes. Was it refused? In some cases

it is refused, that's right, yes. Who was it refused by? Sometimes by

the customers, sometimes if we approach the insurance companies,

the vehicles are already scrapped and especially in the Zafira cases a

lot of cases were old cases which were brought to the attention later

on there could be no physical inspection realised any longer. So

how big a problem is this that you weren't able to get access, how many

cars did you try to get access to? Well, I think... We should really

think about the cars we want to get access to. How many did you try to?

The recall and to really get the repair. It's very important for us

to truly reach out to our customers. I am asking how many cars did you

try to get access to? I didn't give you that figure. It's strange that

you have come here to answer questions on this topic and you

can't tell me how many cars you tried to get access to. I think it's

very important that now that we have identified a final fix for our

vehicles that we reach out to the customers. It's all right talking

about reaching out, I am asking you a direct question, not reaching out.

I am asking what you have done and you can't tell me how many cars you

tried to get access to after these fires have occurred? As soon as we

get aware of fire cases we actually reach out to the customers and ask

them for permission in order to inspect those vehicles. A lot of

those cases actually were historical ones which happened over, not just

in 2016, and we have sent out our team to inspect wherever we could

get access to those vehicles. But it's a bit odd you can't tell me how

many you tried to get access to and failed to, it's very, very odd.

You talked about 59 out of 287. You have said that you didn't have

access to all of those, how do you know those 287 have indeed had fires

that were related to the heating and you described some other fault, if

you haven't got them how do you know it's 287 that you referenced a

specific reason why they went up in fire if you have not had access to

vehicles? There is descriptions which we get from our customer,

contact centres which have been talking to our customers on how the

fire evolved. I think we have a clear indication that this is a very

strong part. To confirm you have never seen those cars with the

exception of 59. So you are going on someone else's say so? What we are

saying is that after the media response we got a lot of calls in

our call centres and they informed us later on they also had to... They

were no longer available, this is where the number is coming from.

Again, perhaps you can help, you said it was 287 where there were

fires caused in the heating or something else. Heating or

ventilation system. Right. That's quite specific. You yourself haven't

been able to acertain that's really where the fire started. How can you

rely on that data? It's specific to expect the customers... This is the

problem with the data reliability and this is what we are shooting

for, we need better data for us and for the whole industry to rely on.

Often we just get not aware of it, if a vehicle fire occurs and the

customer is approaching insurance and the insurance is paying him out

and in most of the cases we never get any information about that one.

Therefore, we need a better data source where all this information is

collected so there are data collection in the fire services, in

the insurance companies. When you came before us last time we went

through this. Have you had any fires since this committee met with the

team that you sent? After the second part of the recall we did not have

any additional fire in these vehicles. Any since we last met up,

which I think was last July? I would have thought after that you would

have moved heaven and earth to get hold of those vehicles and strip

them apart, have you done that because the impression you are

giving is you doesn't know, doesn't feel like anything's changed?

Actually what we have been doing is, from the first recall we had parts

sent back to us in the technical centre and we had about 1,000 parts

from the first recall which we then actually did investigate and I think

we have seen first indication for recourse but we have also seen that

there is a second part of a root cause which is the effective use and

that's why we have initialiated the second recall on the 8th August,

2016. A quick question before I come back,

chair. Could I ask each of the panel

members just to very quickly tell me of the 287 customers who have been

affected with the fires how many have you personally met with? Each

of you, if you could tell me. I haven't met with any of those

customers affected, it's not the line of job I am employed. Actually

there are colleagues who have personally met them, I have not a

chance to meet them. Same as with me. So none of the panel have met

any of the families whose cars went on fire. We have not had the

opportunity. Not had the opportunity? It's been quite a

while. Some of our colleagues have done. And the customer care team and

their responsibility... I am looking at the biographies. We have the

vice-President of GM Quality Europe, the director of global safety

Anfield investigations and the head of Government relations and public

policy, that makes up the panel before us. None of you have thought

to take half a day to meet any of the people who have been affected by

it? Just a couple of hours? OK. Thank you, chair. I will probably

want to come on to suggestions about how we better have a data management

later in this session, but I am confused at the minute, of the 200

and so fires you are aware of, I understand that some of them you

wanted to investigate but couldn't because they had already been

scrapped, the insurer had written them off. I would - if I was an

insurance company and I started seeing a pattern that there was a

fire in a particular model of car, I would want to be starting to ask

some questions. So, in all the cases that you are aware of has the

insurer just said it's been on fire, we are going to write it off, issue

a cheque to the owner, or what steps did they take that you are aware of

to acertain the cause of the fire in the first place? I think you are

bringing up a very good point. First of all, there are multiple numbers

of fire cases in the UK. Last time I think we came to see you we had a

figure of about 18,000. Now there is data which goes up to 100,000.

Whatever data source we believe I think it would be really beneficial

if insurance companies would share their data with us if Fire Brigades

would share their data with us and I totally agree that it will be much

more beneficial for us to have that data so we could send our people to

really investigate those cars at the point where that fire is going to

take place and not maybe two or three years later where it comes to

our at this answerings and that is I think one of the key proposals that

we would like to make, not just for the benefit of us, but for the

benefit of the industry and I think ultimately also for the customer.

I appreciate that is what we might want to look at going forward but

I'm still not clear in my mind, I've had a car, it's gone on fire, I

reported to my insurance company. What steps do they take to ascertain

the cause of that? That may put it another way. How many other fires

are you aware of in your vehicles that are not related to the

particular heating control the fact we are aware of? Do you mean in

other cars? Yes, I'm trying to get the picture in my mind, if I was an

insurance company, how many fires in Vauxhall cars would I expect a year?

I think fires are involved in all of the car lines from us and our

competitors. As we mentioned, in this one source, they are saying

100,000 vehicle fires in the UK only and 65% of these cards are because

of criminal intent and a lot of other fires are because of poor

maintenance. And also our portion, what the side-effects are, we don't

want to play that output for us is difficult to identify if a fire is

related to a design defect or it is other purposes. This is also white

forensic investigation is difficult because the fire itself often

destroys the trace the origin of the fire and therefore it is very

difficult for us, just from the number to identify if there is a

root cause behind or not full so what would help us, if there was a

consolidated data source that we can at least see a trend on that. This

is what we don't have. Forgive me for pressing. Do the insurance

companies make that effort to find out the cause of the fire or is it

that they just recorded as a fire? Is it a day to release issue or do

these insurance companies need to take steps themselves to find out

the source? The Biglia fire happens, the customer notifies the insurance

company -- typically. They might choose to send a settlement agent

that will look at the car but those are typically no forensic fire

investigators. They look at the car and take the first assessment and

they decide on the settlement of the case. Unfortunately, there is no

direct link back to us which then would be able to probably go deeper

in order to truly understand the nature of the fire.

Thank you, chair. I should declare that I am an owner of the Zafira but

not one of the models effected. What happens in the rest of Europe? Is it

only in the UK where they have had car fires? The Opel badge? What do

they have with the rest of Europe and reporting mechanisms? Does

another country have a system of reporting fires? This specific case

is related to the UK vehicles, or let me say to the right hand driven

vehicles. And of course there are other countries affected, like

Malta, which is on the same road, but we do not seek fire cases on

that relation. But we cover this in our recall activities as well. So it

is a different component in the left-hand drive vehicles? The

location is different and if you drive on the other side of the road,

it is different, what is the middle of the and in one country is the

left side and the other the right side. So you are not seeing Zafira

fires in other European countries? No. And I think you also touched on

one aspect, if we have another country is a better system of data

feedback. I think probably UK could set a standard in introducing such a

system and other European countries could absolutely learn from that.

Maybe I can add in addition we are in close contact with the DVSA here

and also thinking to get the field action as soon as possible done to

get very high fulfilment rate. For example in other countries we have a

system where we write three comes to the customers and after that the

customers will Dignitas from the authorities if they do not react on

that recall request, vehicles will be ground. And this helps to speed

up these regal measurements for us and the industry and in addition,

what we think about is also the MOT, you have a yearly MOT system here in

the UK, and if there would be a requirement to check if there is an

outstanding recall on these vehicles, this would help us and a

whole industry a lot as well here. How have you dug with customers who

have not responded? What efforts have you made to contact them? After

now the written up to 1.2 million letters to customers. There are

customers out there who have received up to seven letters

inviting them to actually seek assistance and repair for their

vehicle and also dealers. In addition, where we have data from

the customers, we have given them a call we have them an e-mail and

really reached out to try for them to get in contact. I think up to

date and then say that we managed repair now 165,000 of the Zafira Bs

in order to get the final fix implemented. Our dealers have put up

additional hours during the week but also have devoted a lot of time

during the weekend in order to execute the recall. People from our

plants who have been trained and support our dealers in order to do

so and in order to make the waiting time for each customer very short we

also have now directed that two technicians are working on one car

so we can do that rather rapidly so the customer doesn't have to wait

very long. We have also added resources when it comes to the

customer contact centres that are the centres who make the

appointments. We try to make sure that we can maximise the

opportunities for customers to come and seek the support of the dealers.

As you have truly stated, we really have to get access to our customers

and convince them to come and get their car being fixed. There was a

delay at the start of the second recall, wasn't there, because you

didn't have parts? Why did that happen? Actually there wasn't really

a delay of the recall. We have very rapidly worked with our suppliers in

order to make sure we have parts. I think I can really state that today

we have the capacity as well as the parts and we could theoretically

finish the whole recall in the next month, if customers come and see us

and would actually make an appointment together with us. Maybe

one additional comment. What also is missing is the data accuracy. We

have a lot of data from vehicles which may no longer on the road, and

we're not talking about a few hundred, we're talking about 16,000

or something like that, where we are not sure, together with the dealers

and the DVLA, if they are still on the roads. This is also some point,

if we would get a better help to understand which vehicle really are

out and not scrapped or whatever, that would help us as well. You said

the problem was really unauthorised repairs. Why did you say that when

you never identified who had been doing the alleged unauthorised

repairs? When we got aware of the fire cases, we did a field survey

and asked our dealers, please return back, I think more than a thousand

resistors to us and we did a check on them and found 2.7% of these were

manipulative. 2.7% of what? Of the resisters we got returned out of the

field. Did you name the people you're done these unauthorised

repairs? No. So if you blame the problem on unauthorised repairs, why

didn't you take more trouble to identify those people? It is very

difficult to identify those because, at a certain point of time,

customers do not come to authorised repairers. Instead of blaming who

has done these authorised repairs we have taken at the first indication

that this was one of the two root causes, we're taking action and

initiated the first recall. However, although we haven't really done

those false repairs, we have taken responsibility for that and have

taken action. We also continued the root cause analysis and we did

identify a second part of root cause which wasn't actually a false repair

but which was, according to the design of this fuse. Therefore we

have initiated the second recall which actually has been exchanging

and bringing the car back to the original stage which was the first

recall, but taking a different technical path and using a fuse

which is much more reliable and resistant in that configurations

versus the potential of causing any problem. How many cars caught fire

after the first recall? I think what I can say, directly after the first

fire after the first recall, that was a vehicle which was prepared and

caught fire and that was for us again the trigger... How many? I

don't have the figure. Why don't you know? You knew you were coming here

today to answer these questions and that is another fairly basic

question. We did not get the questions before. You just don't

know. If you're asking for specific figures, of course we can deliver. I

am asking for those figures but I'm also is pressing surprise that you

have come here to answer questions about this very unsatisfactory

situation and you haven't got the basic information on it. There is a

pricing and not very good. In terms of those who drive these

cars, it is traditionally a family car used for school trips, holidays,

trips to hospital and all the rest of it and think it's probably fair

to say that your customers, in the UK at least, are very loyal to your

brand. They have been for many years. I hosted some of your

customers who had been effected by this in Parliament just before

Christmas, in this corridor actually, the group came in, and

they have sent some notes to me about the recall process and also

how they feel your company has handled the whole process since it

began and I just want to read some of this out to you. The notes say,

some customers were made to feel like a nuisance. When they go

through the recall process, the attitude from dealerships have been

met with disgust. They say that vehicles are often returned to them

with further problems, with the heating and ventilation system. It

can sometimes take up to two or three new motors to find one that

works. And the impact here says that customers are made to feel like

second-class citizens. Do you recognise any of this? We apologise

if customers from the recall was to fix the problem and our dealers were

trying to make the process as smooth and easy for our customers and we

understand that might be the case the whole time. We for the

additional inconvenience. There are specific cases, we can follow that

up afterwards. You must be aware of some of these cases. We are aware

and we have instructed our retailers and also given out additional

guidance to them to ensure and to remind the middle is to make sure

that the heating and ventilation system is in good working condition

before the vehicle is passed back. That's not happening. We recognise

it's fitted that I have been mistakes. If you have any specific

examples of any of that, please let us know and we can follow it up

directly with the customers and retailers.

Would either of you like to add anything to that? No. Nothing to say

to - you know, I think your customers have been treated pretty

shoddily and they are being bandied around from pillar to post. I cannot

think of another probably duct in the United Kingdom at the moment,

where people have set up a campaign group to come to Parliament to try

to get MPs to resolve it. -- another product. Some are sat behind in the

audience listening to you. I would have thought you would have

something more to add for the experience. Some of these people's

children don't want to go in a car again and some people have had their

homes damage as a result of this. Well, what I would personally like

to say is that I'm very sorry for the evening frightening subpoenas

our customers have gone through and there was probably nothing we can do

to make it unhappen and what we can do and I think it has been pointed

out, we would really like to make any experience coming to see us and

getting their vehicle fixed, as positive and as straightforward as

possible and that is where we have put a lot of effort in. In addition,

those customers who have gone through a fire, they probably have

also had personal losses, like, you know, personal belongings, things

they really felt important about which are not insured, so we have

now been reaching out to those customers, in order to make sure

that we understand those cases and situations and that we can find a

settlement, together with them, to compensate them, not just for the

insured losses but also for the ininsured losses. Of the 287 that

you say where people have losses, insured or otherwise, of the 287, in

terms of reaching that et islement, how many are outstanding -- reaching

that settlement? We have been reaching out to 160 so far where we

are currently in the discussion and trying to seek a settlement and we

will, of course, step-by-step approach all outstanding cases.

I want to come back to the point on insurance, in your interaction. Have

you contacted all of the main insurers in the market to make the

pointed that - we would actually like to see all of the cars that

you've had claims registered against, particularly in the class

of Safira, Corsa, so you can get better access to the car wrnchts we

work with the insurance company, and where we are aware of the fire and

had permission. We have worked with the insurance company to inspect

vehicles that were available. When we talk about having better access

to data, this is an industry issue and so with our trade body, working

with the asAssociation of British Insurers and looking at an

industry-to-industry solution to this problem. Do you think insurers

are taking it seriously enough? On the one hand it is your reputation,

your brand, but you if you can't get control, you can't get hold of the

asset. And also with the insurance, if they don't have t they cannot pay

out. Have you seen an uptick in the number of cars being delivered back

to you, that have been involved in fires? With Zafira a unique

situation, it was an older vehicle, and some of the fires happened years

ago, so they weren't scrapped. But we have a working industry with the

insurance industry and with the trade body, this is an area where

they are keen to work on, ongoing. Do you think something is required

compulsory, along the lines of, if a vehicle is damaged by fire, from its

engine or any component there, should be a requirement, before an

insurer pays out, for that car to be expected so that the market knows

what the issue is? Absolutely but obviously a customer unfore-Tube

ately with a fire is having compensation -- unfortunately. What

we would like to see is the availability for us to investigate

as soon as possible, we don't want to hold up the process of customers

being reimbursed from an insurance company, for example, but we would

like to have better access, and data and better checks. Can I just check,

other motor manufacturers, so this fault could be common to other motor

manufacturers, did you contact other motor manufacturers to let them know

you are aware of something and perhaps share information in case

they had the same issue with their vehicles as well? What I can say on

this one, of course we inform the authorities on this one and there is

a European system where all the customers and other authorities are

informed about. We cannot get, for example, if we have a

supplier-caused issue or part of a supplier part is in question, we

will not get the data from our competitors because of the antitrust

law but what he doing, when in contct with the authorities, we name

them, the supplier we are working with and they approach the supplier

and they are asking the question which other manufacturers are using

the same component. I remember six months ago, when your team game

before us, Chair, and I asked the que, and the answer was no, which I

think we all thought was a bit of a poor show. So I received an

assurance that afternoon that other manufacturers would be contacted. I

didn't expect it to be that afternoon, but I would have thought

that GM would have putted a call into other motor manufacturers,

rather than leaving it to regulators and what have you. Not least because

you assured me that you would. But, also, it is common sense, isn't it?

Well, we have been working with our supplier and that supplier exactly

knows in which - who are their other customers. What we, however, need to

say is that most, you know, this very specific same part, most

probably, is not being used in the very same configuration in any other

system. However, we have advised our suppliers about any findings that we

had and also the risks that we see, with regard to our very specific

component and you know, they know exactly who their customers are. I

find that a bit of an unsatisfactory answer. Six months ago we were

assured something would happen. Actually your team suggested. It

struck me as common sense to do that and it hasn't been done. I find that

pretty extraordinary. Sorry, as has been explained we are prohibited to

a certain extent with competition law and so there are processes in

place that we explained in a follow-up letter afterwards to the

committee, after our evidence in July. I will be amazed if

competition law stopped you from health and safety perspective to

contact on the most general of terms, other motor manufacturers to

say - we have an issue specific to these parts, you may well want to

check you have these parts as well, we are putting you on notice. I

understand the question. The supplier reached out to its

customers, we would not know the competition or supplier's customers.

It is always a question back from the authorities, where you do the

notification to, which partsome affected and which supplier and then

we give the name of the supplier to the authority and they approach the

supplier to get this information from them.

It is really really very convincing, it is not clear if you have not done

anything, if you don't want it tell us about it.

Are Zafira owners and drivers still at risk?

W we have advised our Zafira drivers to operate their vehicle under a

blower motor condition of oat 0 or 4. At that point of time there is no

risk for the Zafira drivers but I would strongly recommend that the

Zafira drivers are coming to seek us so we can finalise the recall and

their vehicles can be operated under any conditions. Are you absolutely

satisfied that you, as a company, have done everything possible to

eliminate the risk as best you can? Well, we have been reaching out

several tierges even before any recall was issued, so that we advise

our customers how they can actually avoid the risk... So are you

satisfied that they are safe, that's what Mr Vicars is asking you. We

keep being told you reach out but Mr Vickers is asking, are the drivers

safe and the occupants of the cars? Well, let me put it this way, with

every safety recall it is a serious situation and I personally cannot be

satisfied to have safety recall but I am very confident that we have

done what is right in order to mitigate the situation and now offer

the customer a quick fix for their vehicle so that we eliminate any...

But are they safe, Mr Vickers is something you, are they safe?

If the question s if the fix has been done, then yes, we say the

vehicle is safe to drive, if this is the question. For the remaining

ones, which are not in our garages for the fix, we suggest they come in

as soon as possible to get this done and to operate their vehicle safely.

So there are still vehicles out on the road where there is there is

still risk. Following on from that, are you

satisfied that your dealers have done everything, through their

network to contact drivers? You have written to something like 1.2

million people. Letters go astray. Letters get put behind the clock on

the mantelpiece and forgotten. What repeated actions have you taken as a

company and dealer network to make contact with people? Where we have

data and can validate it, we are using other data point like phones

and e-mail to directly contact customers who have not come in yet.

Where we don't have the that detail we have gone to the RAC and AA it

validate information with them and using their contact details to again

address those customers. Now there are still customers out there, that

we know have received the letter and haven't had the recall work done,

they are the registered owners N those circumstances, what we are

proposing to do, we ask the DVSA if we can do a joint letter with that

customer's insurance company to remind them to have a completed

safety recall, and without that it could invalidate the customer's

insurance. We are asking the DVSA for permission to undertake that

step as well. With some of the outstanding figures, as Thomaz

highlighted, there are around 13,000 of the outstanding Zafira's that no

v no registered keeper. They are what is known as sold to trade. They

have been sold to trade between six months and up to three years. We are

working with the DVSA to validate that because there is no registered

keeper, what wrird to do is to notify the previous registered

keeper where we have an address but we are aware they are not the owner

of that vehicle because they've passed them on to trade. So that's

an area where we can keen to work with the DVSA on, going forward in

how we can eliminate that. I want to return to the point about

the insurance companies. What is the situation, if a vehicle is found to

have a faulty part and it burns to the ground, does the insurance

company bear the ultimate cost of paying out on that, or does that

come back to the manufacture? I think in the cases we have seen,

where - I couldn't say with any confidence exactly what happened,

our understanding, my understanding is that insurance companies have

compensated companies have compensated the owner and then we

have compensated the insurer. So if you are compensating the insurer,

but any manufacturer who had a similar problem is compensating the

insurer, does that not give you an ownership right to the vehicle. So,

f heaven forbid my Zafira goes up into flames and I go to my insurance

company and they pay out, the insurance company is going to GM and

say - it has gone up in flames because of this fault, therefore you

need to put the insurance company back in fupds so the insurance

company is not at a loss, so effectively then you own my Zafira.

The insurance company would not necessarily do the forensic

investigations to pinpoint the root cause and fires are destructive by

nature so establishing the cause is very difficult. So the insurance

company will do an initial assessment, as joy understand it and

part of that is pretty much to rule out criminal be intent of activity

and then there is a settlement. We are then, where we are aware of t we

are then able to inspect that vehicle afterwards. I know you are

asking about whether or not weather then we own T I don't have that

information. We can come back. On what basis do Manufacturer 's

like GM paid insurance companies? Do you say, for example, for every

thousand cars that are insured, if there is a claim on those you pay

out 10%? How does it work? We do the compensation in the case that we

understand and we see that we have a design or Manufacturing related

issue and have issued a safety recall. That is not the common

practice, the common practice is the insurer sends an inspector to see

the car and does the first judgment and understand the settlement and

that is how the insurer pays out the customer. In this case we have said,

because of the safety recall, we will actually compensate for the

insurer for the same amount of settlement that he has done those of

their customer. I understand that, but in terms of generally,

run-of-the-mill, somebody has a problem with their Insignia and it

is shown to be Manufacturing problem, do you not routinely

compensate the insurance company? Well, I would say it is very hard

for the Inspector of the insurance company to find out whether there is

a manufacturing related issue. That is why we would seek to have that

short cut of information coming towards us in order to get the

opportunity to do a detailed investigation. However, as we have

been pointing out before, data shows that about 65% of all of the fire

cases are due to arson and often this is very obvious. The next piece

of occurrence is weak maintenance and some of that can also be very

obvious. Then there is the remainder which is very difficult to find out

and there are really detailed investigation is necessary in order

to find out. And sometimes evidence will never be able to be found

because the fire destroyed that key criteria of evidence. And if we get

the chance of a very early Nick Hurd -- notification of the fire and we

get in contact with the insurance company to investigate, we do it

together. That is the best situation for us. Do you not think it is

strange that the insurance company has a vested interest in finding out

who is really responsible, that they don't bother, presumably because we

will pay the premiums at an increased level? There is quite an

onus on the insurance company that they have an opportunity here to

hold accountable those who should be held accountable and they are not

bothering. I think they have started to react to our requests in a

cacique if we can find a joint database where not just insurers but

also by brigades, who often will be called in case of a fire, in all of

those data would come together in one place so that not just us but

all manner factors could have access to it, that would be very helpful.

It also increases the data points we can use to see if there is a trend

and can take action much faster. There are now fires in Corsa B

models now. What is the problem in that -- coarser D.

This is about a safety recall we issued in April 2015. It is on the

pump relate box that is supporting the braking system. We have about

4000 vehicles affected in the UK, it is a 1.4 turbo engine, out of a

fleet of 700,000 vehicles and we already reworked 3000 of them. We

had one fire case when we started the investigation and data on a

second one. These are the two known cases we have. After the media

response, there is one potential additional one but these are the

three cases we are aware of. What is the reason for those fires? It is

water ingress into the Relay box and that can be a short circuit. Can I

ask if Vauxhall have ever refused to investigate a fire when it's been

reported to them by a customer? Going back before the media

attention and all the rest of it, have you ever refused to investigate

customer claims fire? I don't have that information but I can certainly

go back to the team and look back and get back to you. We do expect to

have refused? -- would you have. To my knowledge, we have fire is that

work with us so we have the resources and I couldn't see a

reason why we wouldn't do that but I can't say with any certainty. If I

can take that back to the wider team in the office and get back to you.

You would be interested to know of any cases that have been brought to

our attention where customers have said they had reported fires and

they were essentially palmed off. If you have that information, please

let us know and we can go through and trace that and come back to you

specifically. It just so happens that there are people with those

exact cases here in Parliament this afternoon. Could I ask each one view

to take the time to have a chat with them at the end of the session?

Certainly, I would do that. That would be very helpful also briefly,

chair, going back to the communication with customers. You

have been writing a lot of letters and sending a lot of e-mails and you

set up a Facebook ad to raise awareness of the issue. How

successful do you judge that to I don't have those figures

specifically... You don't seem to have an awful lot with you. There

were a wide variety of areas on those themes as to what we would be

discussing today. We felt we were the right people to answer those

questions. That this the vast amount of work that goes on across the

whole business so I might not have all that information but I don't, I

can get back to you. There is a Facebook group which has about

16,500 people on it who are owners of the models affected. We are aware

of the existence of the group, it is a closed group. Have you tried to

reach out to them specifically? Yes, I believe our customer care director

is in contact with the team and they are in discussions with them as we

speak. Good. And the more general question, and perhaps it would be

one for you guys to answer. You have this problem with the Zafira models

and with Corsas but thinking of the industry more widely, there is the

Volkswagen emissions scandal, there is problems with just about every

manufacturer, Renault, Peugeot. I would go so far as to say that the

reputation of the industry is probably at the lowest point it has

ever been. How do you see the industry gaining back public trust,

given all these scandals that exist in different manufacturers including

yourselves? And how are you going to get public trust back?

Every recall and every safety recall is a very severe issue so giving it

a lot of attention in order to get it fixed is a very important point.

Unfortunately we cannot turn the clock backwards. However, the

question is how we learn quickly and make sure that any new project we

bring out, any new car we bring out, we'll get all of the learnings from

the history. But making sure, in case there was any risk associated,

and we get the first incident of any risk, we quickly take very diligent

actions, we quickly investigate the situation and we take actions in

order to correct in case there is an issue out there. And of course you

might debate how much is quickly and how much emphasis we put on the bike

can assure you that safety is absolutely our first priority in our

company -- I can assure you. We had picked at the top, beat the safety

of our customers, our employees, but our business partners -- be it the

safety. Each board meeting we had been putting safety on top of our

agenda and we are starting each one of those. That gives us the

opportunity to raise issues, take decisions quickly and really

execute. Do you have anything to add to that on what you should do

differently now? That is absolutely right what Elvira is saying and in

addition now culture, we introduced in the safety by month, every

employee can raise up a safety issue to a specific board so this is

documented and will be followed up in the safety arena. What about the

problem you are facing? You have two models with fires where drivers and

passengers are fighting. Should you be doing anything different now to

restore confidence? -- are frightened. What we're doing when

Woody at taking position on recalls, we do not necessarily wait until we

have the root cause -- when we are taking. If we can minimise the risk

to the customer we go out already to start the recall and go back in a

second wave to fix the problem finally. Of course this causes

inconvenience to the customers but this is what we're doing to protect

them as much as possible. We must close this session now, we will be

writing to you with further information that we require so thank

you for coming in. Could I have your name and positions

please? Pete Ahern, operations director. Gareth Llewellyn, chief

Executive of DVSA. Andy King, head of enforcement. We were told last

and that you were surprised at the length of time timetabled for

Vauxhall for the Zafira recall. Have you done anything about making that

action quicker and more effective? What have you been doing about the

problem? Mr Llewellyn. We went through about 75,000 vehicle

identification numbers and matched up against the MOT register for

Vauxhall and we concluded there were about 12,500 Zafira cars which were

outside the MOT, they don't have a valid MOT. Some only just but some

by a very long wait also we have identified another 5500 where they

have no MOT history, maybe because they have been taken abroad when

they were first registered. We tried to slim down the number when we

believe there are active models on the road at the moment to enable

Vauxhall to be able to focus their marketing campaign. We are a little

concerned in that space because a number of the letters originally

sent out have been referred back to DVLA, and DVLA were not part of the

original process and what has come from that is we believe the mail

merge undertaken by Vauxhall was not done successfully on some occasions

and the letters did not end up with the right people so we are talking

to them about how to rectify that position to make sure the right

owners get the letters suggesting that models should be recalled.

Kristen Stewart? -- Mr Stewart. In the previous

session I try to get some detail as to what an insurance company would

examine when it gets a claim for a car that has caught fire. I still

haven't got a proper answer as to what checks they would do to

identify what is causing the fire and, if so, how that might be

relayed to yourselves or to the manufacturers, that there is a

pattern developing that needs to be investigated and rectified. What is

your position on that? We have applied to the Association of

British insurers for access to the mode industry and theft register

because we don't understand quite what is involved in that the moment

and it might give us a better insight into the sort of information

the industry holds and the sorts of things they are looking for and we

can then map that onto where we think certain safety recalls are to

answer this question if there should be some sort of Central register of

issues effecting vehicles. Until we have sight of that register, it is

rather difficult to comment on that at the moment. My question is, is

that investigatory work done at all and enjoys are not racing -- not

releasing it, or do they need to put in place a better system for

following up? I find it quite strange that they would just write

off checks to their policyholders without properly investigating the

cause. And if there is a pattern developing, that should be

translated to yourselves and a fatuous are you aware that that work

is done and it is just they are withholding it or do they need to be

taking additional steps to investigate?

I can't comment on the level of investigation insurers go to but I

would hope that information is on the register, which is why we have

asked for a companiy. Once evaluaited I can probably answer in

more detail Are the insurers giving you any reasons why they are not

sharing that with you currently? No, our sister organisation in the DVLA

have access already, so it is a matter of process. Have you had an

indication of when you might get access? I haven't. If you are asking

whether there are any roadblocks to it, I don't think there are.

Thank you, Chair. A number of different points, if I may,

obviously that pick data base will be useful, but, also, the Fire And

Rescue Services, I understand that a number of them use a fairly basic

system, incident recording system which doesn't have the capacity to

ask any additional information. A number use their own in-house

systems but a number also use 3 TC software I understand which can get

more information on the reason for fires, whether they are arson

attacks, whether there is a criminality element or whether it

seems to be some problem with the vehicle itself. Have you had any

conversations with the Home Office, about Fire And Rescue Services,

being able to have a data base they use properly to record this

information that gets fed through to yourselves? To my knowledge, swrent

had those conversations with the Home Office. I think what this is

highlight something that there are a number of databases around and

general coordination would be a good thing, in terms of of trying to

identify what the true root cause is and also to provide greater

information to the public. I should stress my slight worry is we are not

getting to the true root cause here. The failure of a resister is the

initial cause. If you twrak back, why it failed so why did somebody

have to manipulate in the first place? Because the resister was

failing, it was failing because the blower motor wasn't blowing enough

air and that was you failing because it was corroded and the true cause

is water ingross. So you have to work out what to solve in the first

place. If you don't actually see the, well, depends which way you

look at t the start or end of the process in terms of the fire and

work backwards, if you have no way into that problem, then you have no

way into that problem? There isin is the problem. Yet there are processes

at least in they are I why, already in place that could be brought

together and data that could be gathered to ensure that no further

families ever have to have the appalling intags with their car and

claims around them. The data is either out and not being captured or

they are out there and is being captured and nobody is doing

anything with it. There is probably something with we

can do to coral resources to find out the initial problems with this.

Can I may tackle another question. In terms of an owner of whether it

is a Zafira, Corsa or I indeed any other model of car subject to

recall. If the owner says, it is oar safety recall but I'm not going to

bother, there is actually nothing in place s that correct, to require

them to do that work, so even if if it is a safety-critical issue, that

could either cause loss of life at one end of the scale or snarl up a

motorway with a fire that causes the carriageway to be blocked for hours

on end. Unpleasant through to life ending, there is nothing actually to

stop somebody doing that, is there? There is no process within the MoT

system to say fl has been a safety recall on this model of car, have

you had it done, no you haven't, you can't are have your MoT? I think you

have put your finger on a flaw in the test accept at the moment. It is

something we are going to solve in the very near future. By the end of

the financial year we'll launch our MoT reminder service. All people who

will have cars, will be reminded when this is due. An attach will be

a reminder - please talk to your carriage about whether there are

outstanding safety recalls on your vehicle, that will hopefully get to

those people where maybe we've lost the correct in the system as it

where they are located, transfer of ownership, etc, then the second

phase in the revamp of the MoT system is a view if you haven't had

a safety recall completed on something that's very

safety-critical, then you will not be given an MoT. Presumably to

actually do, that apart from possible legislative changes that

might be required it is simple because you book in through the

computerised system, that would be fairly straightforward, to come with

and say - these are the recalls that have been associated with this type

of car. It would be on different databases but an automatic process

that wouldn't allow interinvestigation by an individual.

Final oi be that point, if I may, Chair, I guess there is also the

issue of where a resister in this case... Can by pass, whatever it may

be, pass the DVLA thought about a process, whereby the owner of a

vehicle is required to tell the MoT inspector that there has been a

repair done on a part of the car, so they may have got it do done, I put

my hands up, I don't tend to use dealer networks because they are

damn expensive but I like to think the mechanic I go to is a very

competent mechanic. So if you have either done the work yourself or

gone to a mechanic, should there be requirement on the MoT system to

Sehwag there is work done, whatever, part of the MoT system, actually it

there should be a requirement to have that piece inspected, even if

it isn't parting of the MoT certification prose.s The system we

have at the moment is based around the existing MoT process. There is

so much potential for it to be used for passing information back out to

customers, to keep the vehicle safe and also collect information from

the garage network about things they are finding on the cars, which will

note unusual situations or emerging recall situations. So the next phase

of the MoT development that's what we are trying to do, to provide more

information to customers and also be able to gather information on the

overall safety of the network. When is the time frame on that work sth

when can we expect to have an all-singing all--dancing system?

With we have come out of phase B, a couple of years, and we are about to

approach phase C but it is a three-year period. So 2020, we might

hopefully see If it is pryer advertised last, but hopefully if it

is pryer advertised earlier, it'll be there earlier. Thank you.

One briefp point following on, before I ask the question I want to

ask. At the moment you are the vehicle tax internet system works,

such if you don't have an MoT you can't get tax. Does that mean in

this context, if you haven't got your vehicle detail sorted out you

won't get your tax? There is a data base that wouldling in and it would

automatically process that without any intervention from the test T

wouldn't be up to the tester to make a decircumstances it could all be

automated. It links into the question I want to ask. From

listening to the previous panel where they seem to be suggesting

answers could perhaps lie with the insurers doing more, and they

couldn't see any circumstances where it wouldn't give the manufacturers

access to the vehicle, if they asked, it seems to me that there has

been a bit of ballparking in here. Do you work on the basis that if

there was more regulation involved in this, then there could be some

way of, if you like, forcing the insurers to make sure the vehicle is

made available for the manufacturers? They are forcing, if

you like, the vehicle owner to take action, if they are not in the

recall, as we have just discussed. And then, ultimately, putting the

matter back to the manufacturers? It just seems at the moment it is a bit

lax? It is true to say that our code of practice at the moment lacks a

little bit of teeth. The vast majority of manufacturers we deal

with in safety recalls and we deal with about 330 a year, the vast

majority 69 safety recalls go under the radar and are an imagined well

by the manufacturers and work gets done and cars go back on the road

safety. There are a few outliars, some of which we are dealing with at

the moment but there are plenty of opportunities in there for a level

of regulation which encourages manufacturers to do a better job. If

you compare us with some of our peers in Europe n Germany, for

example, I think it was mentioned earlier, after three letters, the

regulator goes in, takes the registration number off the car and

you cannot drive T if you look at Netherlands, for administrative

failures the fine is 800,000 euros, a potential one-year cessation of

trading, or two-years in prison, we don't have any of that. Do you think

there is also a role for giving the DVSA more teeth in this area as

well? I know Nissan cars have been on the front pages of the paper,

splitting in two and Toyota Prius and we've heard about Vauxhall. We

seem to be hearing more and it is down to manufacturers which action

they want table. I understand it the DVSA there is a requirement for

manufacturers to contact you. Should you be in a position to invoke the

recall on a reasonable suspension? I think we also welcome a voluntary

approach with manufacturers but I think there's some teeth there

lacking, some compulsion we may want to look at in the future in temples

when we don't get the response or we are not satisfied about being able

to take further action and expedite some road safety risk. Has your view

changed in light of the incidents I just mentioned? I mean, it feels as

if there is a bit of a space right now for somebody to be able to take

action, so that the ball can't continuously be passed. If you know

the general product safety regulation is around failures in

design and construction of a vehicle, we control it is corrosion

over peered of time and the chassis status would be picked up in the MoT

process. -- over a period of time. There is a question of whether the

models have had MoTs but that's the space for that type of an issue.

Unless we get evidence that it is a design failure, in which case it

comes back into the code of practice, I think in terms of what

we can do nerks there are probably three levels. We have learnt a lot

from this -- we can do next, there are three levels. We have learned a

lot, so the MoT involvement is a good process, we'll proposed to kick

that off shortly. Second sand what regulatory powers do we have in the

context of the code of practice. At the moment we don't have any. That

needs to be improved to be able it chivy along some manufacturers that

are not getting to where we need to. Ultimately our goal is making sure

there are no unsafe vehicles on the road. The final bit of us corks is

whilst we are an enforcement authority in many areas, we are not

an enforcement agency as far as general product safety regulations

themselves are concerned so that final ability it take an

organisation to court is not there at the moment. Thank you, I will

stop there. -- to take. So what are the most important

powers you would like to have, that you don't have now? If you look at

the code of practice at the moment, it is a little bit siement on time

scales. If our focus son making sure that the safety remedy is compo

indicted as fast as possible so, people are not put at risk, being

able to ensure that manufacturers speed up the safety recall process

is a clear one, making sure the administration around that is as

robust as possible, so it doesn't create problems as we have seen on

this particular issue and clearly, if there is a lack of willingness to

solve the problem, we need it take it one step further, and as I said

-- to take T and our colleagues Netherlands have greater powers than

we do. What greater powers do they have that you would like? They can

compel a manufacturer to seize trading. There is a two-year prison

sentence for some components and for administrative fines, it is up to

800,000 euros. They are quite stringent. And in Germany, if

removal of the registration plate. If you go down an avenue of trying

to correct this and people don't take notice, you remove that road

safety risk by stopping the vehicle being licensed and registered. So

all those powers, are you seeking? It would make the system more robust

but bear nibbed the vast majority of -- but bear in mind the vast

majority of safety recall are dealt with. One of the issue, as well s I

suspect, almost everybody in this room will have come across really

good mechanics and some, perhaps, questionable ones. Would you like

any powers at all to be able to, if you are able to identify mechanics

who are really, perhaps, should not be touching cars to be anywhere near

them, perhaps having power that is would cease somebody from trading in

that way? We already have those powers. OK We already remove testers

and examiners from garages under the MoT system and we publish that

information. That's somebody doing the test but if you have somebody in

a lock of-up garage, tucked away in London, fixing cars for a few quid

and what they are doing is dangerous, the member of the public

who goes to them and hands over the money in good faith thinks they are

cheap and maybe won't ask why. ... Often they have things in place,

the gas industry is a good example. You have to be registered and have a

certain level of education and understanding and pass

qualifications to get to that level. There is clearly a road safety risk

in a mechanic not doing what he is doing and not repairing the vehicle

to a safe standard. At the moment you don't have that power.

Would that be useful in the future? That would give the public more

confidence that they know the mechanic has achieved a certain

level of status. How many vehicle recall saya handling at the moment?

333 in the last year involving 1.7 million vehicles. We get on average

one or two a day. It is quite a considerable workload. How many

involve fires? Over the last ten years I think we have had about 1.1

million vehicles recalled because of fire issues more generally, engine

fires, electrical fires and other causes. How many of the recalls now

are to do with fires? I do not know the exact number. With Vauxhall

you're dealing with fires and five models at the moment. Five? Yes.

Different cars. -- models. It is unusual for one manufacturer.

Multiple recall is on the same model. Last year we had seven

recallrecalls. Some unusual characteristics about this

particular incident. Would you like to add to that? No. On both of those

recalls they have been recalled twice. With different corrective

action taken. For four, Chrysler and the third one has disappeared out of

my mind, forgive me. When it pops back in... Yes. I am alarmed about

the volume of recalls. Each individual recall will be down to a

specific component design but is there a wider issue about the

quality and design of cars that is leading to this large increase in

the volume of recalls? Our manufacturers cutting corners to

keep costs down? Is there a wider issue we should be looking at? I

cannot give you a definitive answer. The code of practice, there is a big

component around early notification and we get a large number of

manufacturers who tell us very early about things that are emerging and

that they want to get on top of quickly and salt and that is one

reason why the vast majority of recall iss -- recalls go under the

radar. I would not see it is now so thoroughly always down to worsening

standards. Sometimes we are getting more information early on. Land

Rover was the other manufacturer. I am quite shocked by some of what you

have just said. Thinking of the Zafira models, I understand it was

not the manufacturer who informed you, it was customers themselves who

informed you. Do you have any power... That does not seem right...

Do you have any power to stop manufacturers doing that? Surely

they should have to tell you and you should not have to find out from

customers? Yes. We are discussing with Vauxhall a number of reports

that have come to us on the 13th of January with the ECC Zafira model, a

couple of reports from them and a report from the public and we are

pressing Vauxhall for more details into the cause of those fires. We

press the manufacturers for that information. I rate in saying you

found out about this from a member of the public first? Yes. How much

time had passed between that report coming from a member of the public

to Vauxhall getting in touch with you? Have they told you why they did

not contacted? I think it was about four or five days after we sent them

the information we had a notification of four fires on

Zafiras in 2016. We have had conversations throughout about when

they knew certain aspects. We are trying to resolve those. It is about

what is early notification in the minds of some manufacturers compared

to others. 20% of the information comes from third parties and market

intelligence. Ideally the sooner we know them or we can solve. Do you

judge they did not come to your early enough? Is your interpretation

it was not early enough? Yes. If we find out through a third party it is

never early enough. I agree. We continue to press Vauxhall on this

and one of the issues emerging is that some of the decision-making in

terms of Vauxhall classifying issues as a safety defect comes from

Germany and Vauxhall in the UK have said that the decision that sets

elsewhere. Is that unusual? Think of other manufacturers around the

world. The structure between the UK and Europe is not necessarily in

itself unusual. What is of concern potentially is how quickly that

information comes from the manufacturer or producer and

distributor. It is clear in the code of practice that if you have the

parent company you are to tell them of the early notification system in

the UK. Very clear. Of course. You may have heard earlier, when I

mentioned to the previous witnesses examples of people telling Vauxhall

about this, and they were effectively told it was not an issue

and to go away, what would you say any case like that? Do you have any

power to take that up with Vauxhall and impose anything on them? Every

occasion where that is reported we would take that up with the

manufacturer. Where that is proven to be the case can you do anything

or is there another agency that can do anything? In terms of our ability

to take enforcement action we have very limited powers. We can provide

information to Trading Standards bodies for them to take action. We

pass all this information on with very strict guidance to the

manufacturer about what they should do about it. We had a report that a

car had been sold at a particular garage after the recall had been

launched, with an invoice that said there were no outstanding recalls

and that was not true, so our staff visited the garage and pass the

information back to Vauxhall to make sure the change was made quickly.

What would you say in terms of the way Vauxhall have handled this month

from your point of view, what would be the top things you would want

them to take away and never do again? Probably the most important

is the early notification because we are not going to take regulatory

action if an organisation comes to us and says we think we have a

safety risk, we are trying to get on top of it as quickly as possible,

work with us. Of course. That has not happened here. It does with most

manufacturers. The second thing is to be open. As understanding about

why something has failed, changes, tell us. Every time we have a fix it

appears to be the final fix. If they have said we cannot fix it

permanently but we are going to remove some of the risk why we build

up a stock of parts to do the whole fix that would have been a different

story. There were some other examples mentioned about issues with

different manufacturers having different safety problems.

Generally, how can the DVS saying help the industry salvage itself

from what seems to be crisis after crisis? How can you help save the

industry from itself? What is your role in that more widely? Early

dialogue is critical, to get that confidence back. You need more

teeth. I am not blaming you guys. There are areas where we could put

some teeth into this. Important is it you get those extra powers? Why

might we are on the code of practice is the code of practice has not

changed and we have to review that but we are being more rigorous and

how we tackle some of the issues. Some of that has been interpreted by

certain parts of industry as changing the code of practice but we

are just being more rigorous in how we implement it. Most safety recalls

gets dealt with easily. Those powers will be essential to make sure it

does not happen again. A minute automatic or you said most

manufacturers are cooperative which implied that Vauxhall not just in

this case but generally are not. Would that be fair? There is no

doubt we have had to chase a lot of information we believe exists to

understand how big the risk is. On the Zafiras with the electronic line

control, we know there are a number of fires out there and have asked

for information about what Vauxhall's understanding as and they

are waiting to complete a formal investigation but there is still

risk out there so the earlier we have that information the better. We

are chasing to understand what the total risk is to work with them to

remove that risk. The fact to said there is still risk out their

answers the question I put to the previous panel that there are people

driving in Zafiras that are at risk. Are you wholly satisfied that the

company are cooperating and doing their best to ensure that those

vehicles are identified? The fact we are still asking questions says I am

not confident. What we have heard over the last year has put us in

that space. We are constantly pushing for cancers to our questions

to understand how big the remaining risk is. You said that most recalls

went below the radar. Nobody noticed they were happening. Is that because

there were a small number of vehicles affected or because, as

seems to be the case, I have not seen evidence, some manufacturers,

perhaps premium manufacturers, offering a free service and they are

doing the recall so that nobody, particularly the customer, finds out

it has been part of a safety call? Is that what you had in mind or

something different? What is going on? I will give you the short

answer. The vast majority of safety recalls take place within the

warranty period before a car gets to MOT. You take your car to a

franchised dealer and the dealer will know from its owner that it has

a problem and you will be going with that as part of the normal course

and you will not see it because it will be dealt with very quickly. In

the case of the Zafira the vast majority of models were outside

warranty and outside the period for which you do not need an MOT. The

situation is different. So, yes, there are sorts of different ways

that manufacturers are getting safety recalls done by the customer

may never know. Yes. The previous panel, in answer to a question I

posed about whether they contacted other manufacturers, they seemed to

tell me that they had. Is there some common issue that manufacturers tend

to liaise with you but do not allow other manufacturers that it might be

an issue? Is that something you think is acceptable? We would use a

system to make sure this gets out to a wider audience across Europe and

the bull understand what it is about. And people can take a

judgment about its effect. Is it enough? Making sure there is

confidence in the system, you would think they would find some way that

their senior engineers, there would be somebody to discuss these matters

or have an outlook for dialogue. If they're not that culture within the

manufacturing industry and therefore they reference you and they have

done their job? There seems to be a lot of concern about competitiveness

and sharing secrets in that wild and sometimes that gets in the way. That

is very difficult for us without understanding the components to

contact somebody when you do not know that person exists. You have to

go through the manufacturer and speak through whatever channel is

possible with whoever is making the components of that is the issue.

On the one hand I can see the issue about sharing intellectual property

but another way you can looking at it is bearing bad news. When it

comes to something as fundamental as safety, I am he a taken aback that

the industry is not nor collaborative, and it doesn't give

me confidence that they can sort their own issues out if they cannot

discuss it, by saying - we found this issue, you might want it check

it out. I find it worrying, and I also find it worrying that they

didn't do what they said six months ago. Again, they seem it make it up

as they go along. We expect to remove the road safety issue risk as

soon as possible. We don't want it to continue any longer than

necessary. Thank you. Do you share your concern wts D kr. - VCA is that

faulty or dangerous dep sign can belinged to vehicle certification?

Yes we have a close working relationship with DCA. We're in the

process of setting up an area to target the Volkswagen swachlingts we

know they value our information and feedback for type testing for

vehicles before they come on to the market. Are there any further

questions? No. Well, Mr MacDonald, and Mr

Sellerings. One brief, point, Chair, thank you.

We talk about the powers you guys don't have, rather than the ones you

do V I wonder if you can talk to us, just briefly, about resources. There

seemed to be some concern, previously when you were at

committee about the resources you have, the cash resources and what

you can do with that. I wonder if you could give us perhaps an update?

So, as you know, DVSA is a trading fund. The vast majority of our

income does not come from the Government. This area is funded by

what we all the single enforcement budge eted. Probably one of the only

areas that the Department for Transport actually funds in this

space. We are about to publish our five-year strategy. Part of that

strategy is to become self-financing, so we are talking to

the department at the moment about how we do that and, therefore, what

changes may need to be made to penalties, fees and charges, etc to

enable us to do that. Because, I come from a world where the polluter

pays in the environmental space. I think it is just as relevant here.

We are trying to work through that with the department at the moment. I

haven't got any over worries about financial resources at the moment.

The people resources are always a challenge. I'm immensely proud of

the people that work for DVSA. They do difficult jobs in difficult

circumstances. How many people would be working on the recalls? It is

administered by a team of seven but they sit within our enforcement arm

which has 1,000 people. We have taken the enforcement arm out of the

corps operations. Ho -- it reports to me. The organisation has changed

and it can get more resources if required and more opportunity to

expand that if necessary Seven seems a tiny amount of the recalls you

mentioned earlier. We're evaluating that in terms of what more resource

we may need to ensure we can drive compliance in the way we want to and

to ensure, as we look to deal with some of the issues emerging from

this particular issue with vauks Whitehall, that we have adequate

resource. -- with Vauxhall. Some MPs have more than seven MPs of staff.

Well I don't know who they are. Not me. Well, can I talk about the last

answer, I welcome the polluter pays-type approach and particularly

when it comes to heavy goods vehicles, for example, where the

wholly inadequate fining system for somebody that has poor brakes that

don't work on a trailer and only gets ?100 fine is appalling. So good

luck with that one and it'll be nice to see the draft, perhaps of your

document at some stage but my question actually is the types of

vehicles are now changing. We are looking more and more of electric

vehicles and I'm already hearing of recovery operators going to repair a

vehicle, going to load a voke and being faced with a potential 50,000

volt shock from an electric vehicle. What work is being done looking at

that both for now and for the future in terms of the unique aspects of

risk around electric vehicles and how that is likely to shape up in

the future? Well we have a variety of people across the Department for

Transport and with colleagues, people like in the VCA to try to

understand this. Every vehicle that comes on to the road, three years

later has to be MoT tested, so we have to be ahead of that. We are

zoontly looking ahead. We have only been looking last week at autonomous

vehicles. Things are going to change at some point remove the driver, so

how does that work and how will that interact in our whole world? We are

constantly reviewing that and looking at that. We have to plan

ahead because we have a network of testing station that is will have to

test the vehicles at some point so they'll need to integrate that into

the test. So early work and progress?

Perhaps a topic for another inquiry. Thank you very much. Order, order.

I six Prime Ministers, six very different styles of leadership but

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