Browse content similar to 07/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Right, can everybody hear me at the back? | 1:36:27 | 1:36:30 | |
-SHOUTING -Can you hear me? | 1:36:30 | 1:36:33 | |
We're going to move off to Number 10. | 1:36:33 | 1:36:36 | |
These men are British Army veterans of the Troubles. | 1:36:36 | 1:36:40 | |
The way we're going to do it is in an orderly fashion. | 1:36:40 | 1:36:44 | |
Former soldiers on the march. | 1:36:44 | 1:36:47 | |
Proud to have served the Queen. | 1:36:47 | 1:36:50 | |
But now, angrily challenging the very state they served | 1:36:52 | 1:36:56 | |
in Northern Ireland. | 1:36:56 | 1:36:57 | |
There's a foul smell that emanates from that house over there. | 1:36:57 | 1:37:01 | |
SHOUTS OF AGREEMENT | 1:37:01 | 1:37:02 | |
It's the smell of fear. | 1:37:05 | 1:37:08 | |
It's the smell of cowardice. | 1:37:08 | 1:37:10 | |
It's the smell of betrayal. | 1:37:10 | 1:37:12 | |
They are betraying us | 1:37:12 | 1:37:14 | |
because they don't care. | 1:37:14 | 1:37:16 | |
This former member of the SAS stormed the Iranian Embassy | 1:37:21 | 1:37:25 | |
in London in 1980. | 1:37:25 | 1:37:28 | |
Now speaking out against the Government, | 1:37:28 | 1:37:31 | |
his hand shook as he called for an end to investigations | 1:37:31 | 1:37:34 | |
of Army killings. | 1:37:34 | 1:37:36 | |
Margaret Thatcher would turn in her grave! | 1:37:37 | 1:37:40 | |
SHOUTS OF AGREEMENT | 1:37:40 | 1:37:42 | |
She would turn in her grave to see what is happening to her boys today. | 1:37:48 | 1:37:54 | |
Thank you. | 1:37:56 | 1:37:57 | |
Old soldiers marching on Downing Street | 1:38:02 | 1:38:05 | |
isn't really much of a threat to the Government, | 1:38:05 | 1:38:07 | |
but it does illustrate the political minefield | 1:38:07 | 1:38:11 | |
opening up in front of Theresa May. | 1:38:11 | 1:38:14 | |
The veterans want to stop new investigations | 1:38:17 | 1:38:20 | |
into Army killings during the Troubles. | 1:38:20 | 1:38:23 | |
They have been energised by a scathing Parliamentary report | 1:38:23 | 1:38:26 | |
that forced the Government to shut down | 1:38:26 | 1:38:28 | |
the Iraq Historical Allegations Team, known as IHAT, | 1:38:28 | 1:38:33 | |
after allegations that it had turned into a witch-hunt against soldiers. | 1:38:33 | 1:38:37 | |
They now want a similar intervention in Northern Ireland, | 1:38:39 | 1:38:43 | |
just when Mrs May and her Government | 1:38:43 | 1:38:45 | |
have to figure out how to put Stormont back together again. | 1:38:45 | 1:38:49 | |
The Prime Minister could be forgiven | 1:38:51 | 1:38:53 | |
for thinking that her predecessors had dealt with Northern Ireland. | 1:38:53 | 1:38:57 | |
But now it's dropping back on to the political agenda. | 1:38:57 | 1:39:02 | |
Good morning, comrades. I'm delighted to be here... | 1:39:02 | 1:39:05 | |
Jeffrey Donaldson wants a statute of limitations | 1:39:05 | 1:39:08 | |
that would stop police from reinvestigating incidents | 1:39:08 | 1:39:12 | |
involving soldiers from decades ago. | 1:39:12 | 1:39:14 | |
What we're talking about here are historic investigations, | 1:39:17 | 1:39:20 | |
investigations that in some cases go back over 40 years. | 1:39:20 | 1:39:25 | |
They've been investigated by the police, | 1:39:25 | 1:39:28 | |
and the statute of limitations would relate | 1:39:28 | 1:39:31 | |
to reopening investigations. | 1:39:31 | 1:39:33 | |
But Sinn Fein says the soldiers are looking for special treatment. | 1:39:35 | 1:39:39 | |
There's an accountability deficit we're dealing with here. | 1:39:41 | 1:39:45 | |
What we're dealing with, the vast majority of these | 1:39:45 | 1:39:48 | |
state killings were done by the British Army, | 1:39:48 | 1:39:51 | |
and frankly they have been acting with impunity, | 1:39:51 | 1:39:54 | |
and now what we're hearing from MPs over in Westminster, and others, | 1:39:54 | 1:39:59 | |
including some Unionists, is saying that they should have immunity. | 1:39:59 | 1:40:02 | |
And these are the people who stated | 1:40:02 | 1:40:04 | |
that they were absolutely against immunity, | 1:40:04 | 1:40:06 | |
and they're trying to legalise it. | 1:40:06 | 1:40:07 | |
You cannot legalise immunity for murder. | 1:40:07 | 1:40:10 | |
This man is the immediate focus of the veterans' campaign. | 1:40:12 | 1:40:16 | |
Dennis Hutchings, like the other former soldiers, is angry. | 1:40:19 | 1:40:23 | |
The majority of our MPs from this and previous governments, | 1:40:23 | 1:40:30 | |
and I also include those buggers who sit in the MOD, | 1:40:30 | 1:40:34 | |
have spent millions on setting up inquiries like HET, | 1:40:34 | 1:40:41 | |
IHAT, Afghanistan, etc, etc, | 1:40:41 | 1:40:45 | |
and have done absolutely bloody nothing for us! | 1:40:45 | 1:40:50 | |
SHOUTS OF AGREEMENT | 1:40:50 | 1:40:52 | |
In his case, the anger is personal. | 1:40:52 | 1:40:56 | |
Well, today is wake-up day for them, | 1:40:56 | 1:41:00 | |
because the vast majority of the people | 1:41:00 | 1:41:04 | |
of this United Kingdom support us. | 1:41:04 | 1:41:07 | |
CHEERING | 1:41:07 | 1:41:10 | |
Dennis Hutchings isn't just an Army veteran. | 1:41:10 | 1:41:13 | |
The Crown has also accused the 75-year-old of being a criminal. | 1:41:13 | 1:41:18 | |
43 years ago, on this road outside Benburb, | 1:41:23 | 1:41:27 | |
Dennis Hutchings was part of an Army patrol | 1:41:27 | 1:41:29 | |
that shot John Pat Cunningham, | 1:41:29 | 1:41:31 | |
a 27-year-old man with a learning disability. | 1:41:31 | 1:41:35 | |
The Ministry of Defence apologised for the killing four years ago. | 1:41:35 | 1:41:40 | |
Later this month, | 1:41:43 | 1:41:44 | |
Dennis Hutchings is due to appear in a court in Northern Ireland | 1:41:44 | 1:41:48 | |
to answer the charge that his role in the shooting | 1:41:48 | 1:41:50 | |
amounted to the attempted murder of John Pat Cunningham. | 1:41:50 | 1:41:54 | |
He will be the first soldier to stand trial | 1:41:54 | 1:41:57 | |
on a Troubles-related charge for almost two decades. | 1:41:57 | 1:42:00 | |
And another prosecution is coming. | 1:42:05 | 1:42:07 | |
Two former members of the Parachute Regiment | 1:42:07 | 1:42:10 | |
are expected to be charged with murdering the man | 1:42:10 | 1:42:13 | |
in this famous photograph - official IRA gunman Joe McCann, | 1:42:13 | 1:42:18 | |
as he ran from a patrol in 1972. | 1:42:18 | 1:42:22 | |
Veterans thought their connection to the Troubles ended years ago, | 1:42:23 | 1:42:27 | |
but each new case, according to the Prosecution Service, | 1:42:27 | 1:42:30 | |
involves new evidence. | 1:42:30 | 1:42:33 | |
And hundreds more soldiers are due to be scrutinised | 1:42:33 | 1:42:36 | |
by the PSNI's legacy unit. | 1:42:36 | 1:42:39 | |
What about those people who would say, | 1:42:41 | 1:42:42 | |
you are not exempt from prosecution, you're not above the law either? | 1:42:42 | 1:42:45 | |
Nobody here would claim to be exempt. | 1:42:45 | 1:42:48 | |
If anybody here has done an offence, | 1:42:48 | 1:42:51 | |
we would be the first ones, first of all to report it, | 1:42:51 | 1:42:54 | |
and accept the punishment. | 1:42:54 | 1:42:56 | |
We would advocate if a soldier has done wrong, | 1:42:56 | 1:42:58 | |
they should be prosecuted. | 1:42:58 | 1:43:01 | |
What we are objecting to is that some people | 1:43:01 | 1:43:03 | |
do not get prosecuted and we do. | 1:43:03 | 1:43:07 | |
It is that equality of treatment that we are fighting for | 1:43:07 | 1:43:10 | |
and demonstrating for today. | 1:43:10 | 1:43:12 | |
At Downing Street, veterans handed in a letter, | 1:43:16 | 1:43:19 | |
demanding an end to the prosecutions. | 1:43:19 | 1:43:22 | |
They also want the prosecutor who ordered the first case, | 1:43:22 | 1:43:26 | |
Barra McGrory, sacked, because his former legal clients | 1:43:26 | 1:43:30 | |
include Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein. | 1:43:30 | 1:43:34 | |
Mr McGrory says his decisions are impartial and he has been defended | 1:43:34 | 1:43:39 | |
by Secretary of State James Brokenshire. | 1:43:39 | 1:43:41 | |
But Mr Brokenshire also said the system | 1:43:43 | 1:43:45 | |
for investigating historic cases in Northern Ireland | 1:43:45 | 1:43:48 | |
is not working and needs to be overhauled. | 1:43:48 | 1:43:52 | |
His boss also had something to say. | 1:43:52 | 1:43:54 | |
In the case of Northern Ireland, | 1:43:54 | 1:43:56 | |
90% of deaths were caused by terrorists, | 1:43:56 | 1:43:59 | |
and it's essential that the justice system reflects this. | 1:43:59 | 1:44:02 | |
It would be entirely wrong to treat terrorists more favourably | 1:44:02 | 1:44:05 | |
than soldiers or police officers. | 1:44:05 | 1:44:07 | |
Now the storm raised by the soldiers | 1:44:07 | 1:44:09 | |
has blown well beyond Westminster. | 1:44:09 | 1:44:12 | |
So far, the campaign by Northern Ireland veterans | 1:44:13 | 1:44:16 | |
has had the impact they wanted. | 1:44:16 | 1:44:19 | |
Cabinet Ministers have supported them, | 1:44:19 | 1:44:21 | |
the Prime Minister has even weighed in. | 1:44:21 | 1:44:24 | |
But there has been another unintended effect - | 1:44:24 | 1:44:27 | |
their campaign has become highly political in Northern Ireland. | 1:44:27 | 1:44:32 | |
In the aftermath of last week's election, | 1:44:37 | 1:44:39 | |
the prosecution of former soldiers looks like another issue | 1:44:39 | 1:44:43 | |
that complicates Northern Ireland's already tangled legacy debate. | 1:44:43 | 1:44:48 | |
A debate bedevilled by the equal treatment of victims, | 1:44:53 | 1:44:57 | |
the State's refusal to release information | 1:44:57 | 1:45:00 | |
that it deems necessary to national security, | 1:45:00 | 1:45:03 | |
and the funding of inquests, | 1:45:03 | 1:45:05 | |
which Sinn Fein says prompted it to break off its meeting | 1:45:05 | 1:45:08 | |
with the Secretary of State today. | 1:45:08 | 1:45:10 | |
Before the election, this mainly Unionist victims' group in Cookstown | 1:45:10 | 1:45:15 | |
heard warnings about the growing controversy. | 1:45:15 | 1:45:18 | |
There's going to be talks. | 1:45:19 | 1:45:21 | |
You know one of the bargaining chips that's going to be in it? | 1:45:21 | 1:45:23 | |
It's going to be victims' issues. | 1:45:23 | 1:45:25 | |
And when it comes down to it, it will be a trade off. | 1:45:25 | 1:45:28 | |
The very same night, Sinn Fein's new Northern leader | 1:45:30 | 1:45:33 | |
accused the British Government of trying to cover up the past. | 1:45:33 | 1:45:37 | |
They don't want the world to know what they did in our country. | 1:45:39 | 1:45:43 | |
They don't want the world to know about the death squads, | 1:45:43 | 1:45:46 | |
about shoot-to-kill, | 1:45:46 | 1:45:47 | |
about the torture and the full extent of collusion. | 1:45:47 | 1:45:50 | |
In Portadown, the leader of unionism told victims at a campaign rally | 1:45:55 | 1:46:00 | |
that she will not tolerate the pursuit of the security forces. | 1:46:00 | 1:46:03 | |
I would rather be out of power for a generation | 1:46:05 | 1:46:09 | |
than in power on the backs of those people | 1:46:09 | 1:46:13 | |
who gave everything to serve our community. | 1:46:13 | 1:46:15 | |
Those who defended us, | 1:46:15 | 1:46:17 | |
those who put themselves between us and the terrorists, | 1:46:17 | 1:46:23 | |
I am not going to allow those people to be sacrificed | 1:46:23 | 1:46:29 | |
on the altar of political expediency. | 1:46:29 | 1:46:32 | |
I have to say. | 1:46:32 | 1:46:33 | |
-Hear, hear. -APPLAUSE | 1:46:33 | 1:46:35 | |
That's the general manager's house, where my mother was brought up. | 1:46:45 | 1:46:49 | |
For the first time in decades, | 1:46:49 | 1:46:51 | |
Andrew Sayers is back in Belleek, County Fermanagh, | 1:46:51 | 1:46:54 | |
his mother's hometown. | 1:46:54 | 1:46:56 | |
The earliest memory I've got is looking at a picture of my mother | 1:46:57 | 1:47:01 | |
standing at the back of this house in the garden. | 1:47:01 | 1:47:04 | |
Once, Andrew's family was Belleek Pottery. | 1:47:04 | 1:47:09 | |
They ran the factory for two generations. | 1:47:09 | 1:47:11 | |
-That looks like the pile of pots. -Yeah. | 1:47:13 | 1:47:15 | |
They'd failed quality control and I was allowed to smash them, | 1:47:15 | 1:47:19 | |
with full permission, because they weren't going to be sold. | 1:47:19 | 1:47:22 | |
Like his ancestors, Andrew also came to work in Belleek. | 1:47:25 | 1:47:30 | |
But he flew in under the cover of darkness and hid in the hedgerows, | 1:47:31 | 1:47:35 | |
carrying out special operations as an Army officer. | 1:47:35 | 1:47:40 | |
We came up the valley, | 1:47:40 | 1:47:41 | |
put the helicopter down behind the high ground. | 1:47:41 | 1:47:43 | |
It was dark and the idea was to ensure | 1:47:43 | 1:47:46 | |
that nobody could see where we were disembarking the troops. | 1:47:46 | 1:47:49 | |
You spent your holidays here as a boy. | 1:47:49 | 1:47:51 | |
Your mum grew up in the house beside Belleek Pottery, | 1:47:51 | 1:47:54 | |
and yet you came back here under cover of darkness. | 1:47:54 | 1:47:57 | |
What was that like? | 1:47:57 | 1:47:59 | |
It felt horrible. | 1:47:59 | 1:48:00 | |
Just down the hill from my aunt's house. | 1:48:00 | 1:48:03 | |
And I knew that if I had climbed the hill from | 1:48:03 | 1:48:06 | |
100 yards down there, | 1:48:06 | 1:48:08 | |
I would have been welcomed and given a cup of tea. | 1:48:08 | 1:48:10 | |
-This was hostile territory... -Yes. | 1:48:10 | 1:48:12 | |
Did you regard these people as the enemy? | 1:48:12 | 1:48:14 | |
Yes. I was very conscious that the children that I had played with | 1:48:14 | 1:48:17 | |
when I was eight, perhaps one or two of them | 1:48:17 | 1:48:19 | |
were now members of an IRA unit. | 1:48:19 | 1:48:22 | |
The law applies equally to us as it applies to the terrorists. | 1:48:22 | 1:48:27 | |
Andrew is one of the organisers of the veterans' campaign. | 1:48:27 | 1:48:32 | |
They say the new prosecutions, | 1:48:32 | 1:48:34 | |
the investigations and a series of inquests | 1:48:34 | 1:48:36 | |
into security force killings amount to a witch-hunt. | 1:48:36 | 1:48:40 | |
This former member of the Black Watch | 1:48:42 | 1:48:44 | |
believes soldiers suspected of any wrongdoing | 1:48:44 | 1:48:47 | |
have already been sufficiently investigated. | 1:48:47 | 1:48:51 | |
They were investigated thoroughly at the time. | 1:48:51 | 1:48:55 | |
A soldier is subjected to a series of investigations | 1:48:55 | 1:48:58 | |
if he fires his gun that is far more vigorous | 1:48:58 | 1:49:01 | |
than terrorists are subjected to. | 1:49:01 | 1:49:05 | |
We have to face not only the civil police, | 1:49:05 | 1:49:08 | |
but the Royal Military Police. | 1:49:08 | 1:49:10 | |
Any belief that the military police is best mates with the British Army, | 1:49:10 | 1:49:15 | |
they don't understand how it operates. | 1:49:15 | 1:49:18 | |
Killings by the military account for about one-third | 1:49:22 | 1:49:25 | |
of the Troubles cases now in front of the PSNI. | 1:49:25 | 1:49:29 | |
The British Government agrees with the veterans | 1:49:29 | 1:49:32 | |
that that is disproportionate, | 1:49:32 | 1:49:34 | |
because the Army was responsible for less than 10% of the deaths. | 1:49:34 | 1:49:38 | |
But there is a great deal of evidence | 1:49:38 | 1:49:41 | |
that the reason so many Army killings are being re-examined now | 1:49:41 | 1:49:45 | |
is that they were not properly investigated in the first place. | 1:49:45 | 1:49:50 | |
A man with a weapon. Then you may shoot him. A man with a weapon. | 1:49:50 | 1:49:55 | |
At the heart of this story is a fundamental disagreement | 1:49:55 | 1:49:58 | |
about how military killings in Northern Ireland were investigated. | 1:49:58 | 1:50:03 | |
Soldiers believe they were subjected to rigorous scrutiny | 1:50:03 | 1:50:06 | |
and investigations, and that when they were told | 1:50:06 | 1:50:09 | |
they were in the clear, that was it. Case closed. | 1:50:09 | 1:50:12 | |
But many families of people killed by the Army do not agree. | 1:50:17 | 1:50:21 | |
In Londonderry's Free Derry Museum, | 1:50:26 | 1:50:28 | |
British Army radio transmissions are played on a loop. | 1:50:28 | 1:50:33 | |
'60 fired at a bomber in William Street. Man hit.' | 1:50:33 | 1:50:37 | |
These are the actual sounds of Bloody Sunday, | 1:50:37 | 1:50:40 | |
when 13 people were shot dead by the Army in January 1972. | 1:50:40 | 1:50:45 | |
I'm meeting John Kelly, | 1:50:50 | 1:50:52 | |
whose brother was a teenager when he was killed. | 1:50:52 | 1:50:55 | |
My brother Michael was only 17, | 1:50:55 | 1:50:57 | |
and the youngest to die on Bloody Sunday. | 1:50:57 | 1:50:59 | |
And that's the little Babygro that was used to stem the flow | 1:50:59 | 1:51:03 | |
of blood when he was taken into the house after being shot. | 1:51:03 | 1:51:05 | |
That was the first thing the mother of the house grabbed, | 1:51:05 | 1:51:07 | |
was that Babygro. | 1:51:07 | 1:51:09 | |
So that actually, the blood on that Babygro | 1:51:09 | 1:51:11 | |
-is your brother's blood from that day? -It's the blood of my brother. | 1:51:11 | 1:51:14 | |
It's extremely important to my family that we have something | 1:51:14 | 1:51:17 | |
belonging to Michael here. | 1:51:17 | 1:51:18 | |
Despite the high profile attached to Bloody Sunday, | 1:51:22 | 1:51:25 | |
the families of the dead said it took more than 35 years | 1:51:25 | 1:51:28 | |
for the killings to be properly investigated. | 1:51:28 | 1:51:31 | |
In 2010, after the biggest and most expensive inquiry | 1:51:33 | 1:51:38 | |
in British legal history, | 1:51:38 | 1:51:40 | |
the Government apologised for the killings, | 1:51:40 | 1:51:43 | |
saying they were unjustified, unjustifiable and wrong. | 1:51:43 | 1:51:47 | |
Do you think the soldiers involved in Bloody Sunday | 1:51:50 | 1:51:53 | |
were properly investigated at the time? | 1:51:53 | 1:51:56 | |
No. | 1:51:56 | 1:51:57 | |
So you're clear that at the time, your brother's death, | 1:51:57 | 1:52:01 | |
the deaths of the others that day were not investigated properly? | 1:52:01 | 1:52:04 | |
They were not investigated properly. | 1:52:04 | 1:52:06 | |
And for anyone else to say different, | 1:52:06 | 1:52:09 | |
they are living in Cloud Cuckoo Land. | 1:52:09 | 1:52:12 | |
There was never a murder investigation | 1:52:12 | 1:52:14 | |
by the police at the time. | 1:52:14 | 1:52:16 | |
The PSNI recently sent investigation files on Bloody Sunday | 1:52:18 | 1:52:23 | |
to the Prosecution Service, which means the soldier who killed | 1:52:23 | 1:52:27 | |
Michael Kelly could be the next veteran in the dock. | 1:52:27 | 1:52:30 | |
John doesn't speak for all the families, | 1:52:32 | 1:52:34 | |
but he would welcome that day in court. | 1:52:34 | 1:52:37 | |
Will prosecutions bring closure? | 1:52:37 | 1:52:40 | |
Prosecutions will certainly bring closure to me. | 1:52:41 | 1:52:44 | |
We have been... | 1:52:44 | 1:52:46 | |
It's 45 years since Bloody Sunday, and I was 23 on that day. | 1:52:46 | 1:52:52 | |
Some of these soldiers are the same age as me now. | 1:52:52 | 1:52:55 | |
And for me, I want to get on with the rest of my life, | 1:52:55 | 1:52:57 | |
whatever I have left. | 1:52:57 | 1:52:59 | |
So when I see prosecutions happen, I can smile | 1:52:59 | 1:53:04 | |
and say I've done a good job. | 1:53:04 | 1:53:06 | |
I was part of a process from the families, | 1:53:06 | 1:53:10 | |
and all the people who helped us over the years, that we have | 1:53:10 | 1:53:12 | |
tried to achieve truth and justice for our loved ones. | 1:53:12 | 1:53:15 | |
And through prosecutions, it will be the final | 1:53:15 | 1:53:18 | |
part of the equation. | 1:53:18 | 1:53:19 | |
'While a body was brought forward into a possible line of fire.' | 1:53:19 | 1:53:23 | |
As the most notorious action by the British Army | 1:53:25 | 1:53:27 | |
during the Troubles, | 1:53:27 | 1:53:28 | |
Bloody Sunday was always a focus of attention. | 1:53:28 | 1:53:32 | |
But hundreds of other killings were filed away | 1:53:36 | 1:53:39 | |
and largely ignored. | 1:53:39 | 1:53:41 | |
Evidence at the Bloody Sunday Inquiry revealed that | 1:53:42 | 1:53:45 | |
between 1970 and 1973, during the worst period | 1:53:45 | 1:53:50 | |
for killings, the RUC and Army had an informal agreement which meant | 1:53:50 | 1:53:55 | |
that Army shooters were only interviewed by military police. | 1:53:55 | 1:54:00 | |
That agreement was that basically | 1:54:00 | 1:54:03 | |
the Royal Military Police should have taken statements from soldiers | 1:54:03 | 1:54:06 | |
as to what happened during incidents where people were killed. | 1:54:06 | 1:54:11 | |
And the soldiers' statements would then be sent to the RUC. | 1:54:11 | 1:54:14 | |
By their own account, this took the form of a tea and sandwiches event, | 1:54:14 | 1:54:18 | |
where they simply sat with the soldier and said, | 1:54:18 | 1:54:20 | |
"Tell us what happened." | 1:54:20 | 1:54:21 | |
And there was no attempt to probe whether they had | 1:54:21 | 1:54:25 | |
broken the criminal law. | 1:54:25 | 1:54:27 | |
During the Troubles, | 1:54:31 | 1:54:32 | |
just over 20 military killings were brought to court, | 1:54:32 | 1:54:36 | |
a comparatively small proportion | 1:54:36 | 1:54:38 | |
of the 311 deaths caused by the Army. | 1:54:38 | 1:54:42 | |
Soldiers were acquitted in two-thirds of the cases. | 1:54:43 | 1:54:47 | |
In most cases in which troops were convicted of murder | 1:54:47 | 1:54:50 | |
or manslaughter, they were released after relatively short terms | 1:54:50 | 1:54:54 | |
in prison, and usually returned to the Army. | 1:54:54 | 1:54:57 | |
Those are the stark statistics of the last 40 years, | 1:54:59 | 1:55:03 | |
in terms of the actions of the British Army | 1:55:03 | 1:55:05 | |
on these streets since 1969. | 1:55:05 | 1:55:07 | |
That is not a witch-hunt. | 1:55:07 | 1:55:09 | |
Once again, there's a big difference | 1:55:13 | 1:55:15 | |
over what that small number of cases means. | 1:55:15 | 1:55:18 | |
Does it show favourable treatment for the Army, or is it evidence | 1:55:18 | 1:55:22 | |
that soldiers mostly operated within the rule of law, | 1:55:22 | 1:55:25 | |
even when they killed? | 1:55:25 | 1:55:27 | |
The Army's chief legal advisor in Iraq | 1:55:27 | 1:55:30 | |
was Lt Col Nicholas Mercer. | 1:55:30 | 1:55:33 | |
After he blew the whistle on the abuse of prisoners there, | 1:55:33 | 1:55:36 | |
a human rights group named him their lawyer of the year. | 1:55:36 | 1:55:40 | |
In the 1990s, he also instructed troops in Northern Ireland | 1:55:40 | 1:55:44 | |
on the rules of engagement, | 1:55:44 | 1:55:46 | |
specifying when they could or couldn't open fire. | 1:55:46 | 1:55:50 | |
Those rules were known as the yellow card. | 1:55:50 | 1:55:53 | |
The Lt Col is now a Church of England minister in Dorset. | 1:55:53 | 1:55:58 | |
He says there was sympathy in the Army for some of those | 1:55:58 | 1:56:00 | |
soldiers who wrongly crossed the line. | 1:56:00 | 1:56:04 | |
There was a view to one extent that this was a war, | 1:56:04 | 1:56:07 | |
and that these things happen, | 1:56:07 | 1:56:09 | |
and yet you're apply domestic law to what is a wartime situation. | 1:56:09 | 1:56:14 | |
From a legal perspective, of course, murder is murder. | 1:56:14 | 1:56:17 | |
You can take mitigating circumstances into account | 1:56:17 | 1:56:20 | |
and let's face it, there are mitigating circumstances, | 1:56:20 | 1:56:22 | |
these are young men with rifles who normally wouldn't have them | 1:56:22 | 1:56:26 | |
in highly charged operational situations, | 1:56:26 | 1:56:29 | |
which does make it different | 1:56:29 | 1:56:31 | |
from something like a gangland killing or a stabbing | 1:56:31 | 1:56:34 | |
or something of that nature. | 1:56:34 | 1:56:36 | |
But the yellow card rules made it clear that soldiers operating | 1:56:36 | 1:56:40 | |
in Northern Ireland could not behave as if they were in a war. | 1:56:40 | 1:56:44 | |
In international armed conflict, then... | 1:56:44 | 1:56:48 | |
you can shoot to kill because the other side | 1:56:48 | 1:56:50 | |
is a combatant. | 1:56:50 | 1:56:52 | |
In any other conflict, it would have to be | 1:56:52 | 1:56:55 | |
in self-defence of yourself or in self-defence of others. | 1:56:55 | 1:57:00 | |
So in Northern Ireland, self-defence? | 1:57:00 | 1:57:03 | |
Of yourself or others, yeah. | 1:57:03 | 1:57:04 | |
But such legal niceties had to be explained to soldiers on the ground. | 1:57:04 | 1:57:09 | |
Please, can you take your Guardsmen through the yellow card again, | 1:57:09 | 1:57:12 | |
and make sure its provisions are obeyed? | 1:57:12 | 1:57:15 | |
I expect them to take fairly vigorous action if we're under | 1:57:15 | 1:57:18 | |
attack, and I will back them up to the shagging hilt. | 1:57:18 | 1:57:21 | |
If they act within the spirit and the law of the yellow card, | 1:57:21 | 1:57:25 | |
I'll be there in court with them, my collar and tie, | 1:57:25 | 1:57:29 | |
making sure they get off. | 1:57:29 | 1:57:30 | |
I think, I think if you serve | 1:57:30 | 1:57:31 | |
in the Armed Forces you have some sympathy for the soldiers | 1:57:31 | 1:57:34 | |
on the ground. | 1:57:34 | 1:57:36 | |
I mean, I would go out on patrol with soldiers, | 1:57:36 | 1:57:38 | |
just to see what it was like first hand, and we did rural vehicle | 1:57:38 | 1:57:43 | |
checkpoints at night, with cars speeding up, | 1:57:43 | 1:57:46 | |
slowing down, young men with weapons - it's not easy. | 1:57:46 | 1:57:50 | |
Nicholas Mercer does believe there is a danger that individual | 1:57:51 | 1:57:55 | |
soldiers are left to face consequences not of their making. | 1:57:55 | 1:57:59 | |
Where you off to? | 1:57:59 | 1:58:01 | |
The fact that they were following orders | 1:58:01 | 1:58:03 | |
is not a defence in law - | 1:58:03 | 1:58:06 | |
the question is did they kill someone, | 1:58:06 | 1:58:08 | |
did they intend to do it, and do they have a lawful defence? | 1:58:08 | 1:58:11 | |
Having said that, all too often the State melt into the background, | 1:58:11 | 1:58:16 | |
leaving the servicemen stranded. | 1:58:16 | 1:58:19 | |
Alan Barry was a 19-year-old Grenadier Guardsman | 1:58:23 | 1:58:26 | |
when he first set foot in Northern Ireland. | 1:58:26 | 1:58:29 | |
Born in Dublin, he was raised near Birmingham. | 1:58:29 | 1:58:32 | |
I always wanted to be a soldier from a very early age. | 1:58:33 | 1:58:36 | |
That's how I ended up in the Army. | 1:58:36 | 1:58:38 | |
It's been more than 30 years | 1:58:38 | 1:58:40 | |
since he first found himself on this street in Strabane. | 1:58:40 | 1:58:43 | |
What was it like patrolling here, as a young 19-year-old? | 1:58:45 | 1:58:49 | |
Well, you were on edge all the time. | 1:58:49 | 1:58:51 | |
You didn't know what was coming or where it was coming from. | 1:58:52 | 1:58:56 | |
There was an air of tension, constantly. | 1:58:56 | 1:59:00 | |
Coming over this bridge for the first time in a Land Rover, | 1:59:00 | 1:59:04 | |
I'll always remember the peat fire smell, | 1:59:04 | 1:59:08 | |
because I actually didn't know what it was. | 1:59:08 | 1:59:11 | |
-Were you frightened? -Yeah. | 1:59:11 | 1:59:12 | |
As young Guardsmen, yeah, we were frightened. | 1:59:12 | 1:59:15 | |
I was, I know that. | 1:59:15 | 1:59:17 | |
What kind of reception did you get back then in the '80s? | 1:59:17 | 1:59:20 | |
Hostile. | 1:59:20 | 1:59:22 | |
You could see the naked hatred in people's eyes towards us. | 1:59:22 | 1:59:26 | |
I remember once getting on a bus. | 1:59:27 | 1:59:30 | |
As I walked down I had my rifle up in the port position like this, | 1:59:30 | 1:59:34 | |
and I'm looking down each individual aisle. | 1:59:34 | 1:59:37 | |
The bus was packed with children of about 15, 16 years of age. | 1:59:37 | 1:59:43 | |
I was 19. | 1:59:43 | 1:59:44 | |
And the obscenities that were screamed at me, | 1:59:44 | 1:59:46 | |
you know the usual "Brit this, Brit that", | 1:59:46 | 1:59:49 | |
"Eff off back to where you're from," and all the usual stuff. | 1:59:49 | 1:59:53 | |
When I got off the bus, I took my flak jacket off, | 1:59:53 | 1:59:55 | |
and it was absolutely covered in phlegm and spit. | 1:59:55 | 2:00:00 | |
You say that a lot of people here saw you as the enemy. | 2:00:00 | 2:00:04 | |
What did you think your role here was at that stage? | 2:00:04 | 2:00:08 | |
My view, and the view of many of my fellow comrades, | 2:00:09 | 2:00:13 | |
was that we were here to stand between two warring factions. | 2:00:13 | 2:00:18 | |
We were not here to oppress anyone. | 2:00:18 | 2:00:20 | |
We were here to stop people being murdered, | 2:00:20 | 2:00:24 | |
to stop people being killed, and that was our job. | 2:00:24 | 2:00:28 | |
Alan Barry was also one of the London march organisers. | 2:00:29 | 2:00:32 | |
He's incensed that Dennis Hutchings | 2:00:34 | 2:00:36 | |
and other soldiers are being brought to trial. | 2:00:36 | 2:00:39 | |
The State, he says, has double standards. | 2:00:39 | 2:00:42 | |
The main reason for this event today | 2:00:43 | 2:00:47 | |
was to send a clear message out to our politicians and also | 2:00:47 | 2:00:52 | |
to the people both here in the United Kingdom and the people | 2:00:52 | 2:00:57 | |
in Northern Ireland, | 2:00:57 | 2:00:58 | |
of the injustice of what's currently happening. | 2:00:58 | 2:01:01 | |
He says that's mainly because of the efforts Tony Blair's government | 2:01:02 | 2:01:06 | |
put into dealing with IRA fugitives. | 2:01:06 | 2:01:08 | |
Back in 2001, the Government agreed to an amnesty | 2:01:10 | 2:01:14 | |
in exchange for decommissioning. | 2:01:14 | 2:01:16 | |
But the Ministry of Defence didn't want the plan | 2:01:17 | 2:01:20 | |
to include soldiers, | 2:01:20 | 2:01:22 | |
because that would equate them with terrorists. | 2:01:22 | 2:01:24 | |
That changed four years later, | 2:01:26 | 2:01:29 | |
when the then Secretary of State Peter Hain | 2:01:29 | 2:01:31 | |
brought legislation to Parliament | 2:01:31 | 2:01:33 | |
that would grant immunity from prosecution | 2:01:33 | 2:01:36 | |
for certain Troubles-related crimes. | 2:01:36 | 2:01:39 | |
This time, soldiers were included in the Government's plans. | 2:01:39 | 2:01:43 | |
Sinn Fein were only concerned with their side, | 2:01:46 | 2:01:48 | |
but you couldn't legislate, I would never | 2:01:48 | 2:01:50 | |
have been prepared to legislate in a way that gave a special | 2:01:50 | 2:01:54 | |
status to former IRA militia men on the one hand, | 2:01:54 | 2:02:00 | |
but not to soldiers on the other. | 2:02:00 | 2:02:01 | |
How could any Secretary of State do that? | 2:02:01 | 2:02:03 | |
How could any responsible individual do that? | 2:02:03 | 2:02:07 | |
With soldiers coming in, Sinn Fein wanted out. | 2:02:07 | 2:02:11 | |
Just as the MoD had objected to being included with the IRA, | 2:02:11 | 2:02:16 | |
Sinn Fein now objected to the inclusion of soldiers. | 2:02:16 | 2:02:19 | |
The Government dropped the legislation. | 2:02:19 | 2:02:22 | |
That still left the problem of republican fugitives, | 2:02:22 | 2:02:25 | |
known as on-the-runs. | 2:02:25 | 2:02:28 | |
So quietly, the Government began issuing | 2:02:28 | 2:02:30 | |
what are now known as letters of comfort. | 2:02:30 | 2:02:33 | |
These letters were supposed to be a limited statement of fact, | 2:02:34 | 2:02:37 | |
namely that individual republicans were not wanted by the police. | 2:02:37 | 2:02:42 | |
But that scheme backfired spectacularly. | 2:02:42 | 2:02:46 | |
Three years ago, Donegal man John Downey was found not guilty | 2:02:46 | 2:02:50 | |
of the 1982 Hyde Park bombing. | 2:02:50 | 2:02:53 | |
IRA terrorists have carried out | 2:02:53 | 2:02:55 | |
two lethal bomb attacks in London. | 2:02:55 | 2:02:58 | |
The attack killed four members of the Household Cavalry, | 2:02:58 | 2:03:01 | |
and seven of their horses. | 2:03:01 | 2:03:03 | |
Seven Army musicians were killed by a bomb | 2:03:04 | 2:03:07 | |
at Regent's Park the same day. | 2:03:07 | 2:03:09 | |
Downey had been wanted by police, because fingerprint evidence | 2:03:11 | 2:03:15 | |
was suspected of linking him to the Hyde Park attack. | 2:03:15 | 2:03:19 | |
He pleaded not guilty, and was acquitted because | 2:03:19 | 2:03:22 | |
he received a letter from the Government | 2:03:22 | 2:03:25 | |
saying he was not wanted for any offences. | 2:03:25 | 2:03:28 | |
As a former member of the Household Division, | 2:03:28 | 2:03:30 | |
it is something I feel quite strongly about. | 2:03:30 | 2:03:33 | |
Troopers of the Blues and Royals mounting public duty, | 2:03:33 | 2:03:36 | |
who were not carrying weapons, who were mounting public duty | 2:03:36 | 2:03:39 | |
on their horses were blown to smithereens. | 2:03:39 | 2:03:42 | |
John Downey walked into court with a letter of comfort, | 2:03:43 | 2:03:47 | |
and the case collapsed. | 2:03:47 | 2:03:48 | |
What was your reaction and the reaction | 2:03:48 | 2:03:51 | |
of your colleagues when you found out about the letters of comfort? | 2:03:51 | 2:03:55 | |
If the cost of peace is letters of comfort, | 2:03:55 | 2:03:59 | |
I can only speak for myself, | 2:03:59 | 2:04:01 | |
that is something that I can live with. | 2:04:01 | 2:04:03 | |
What I cannot live with, is letters of comfort | 2:04:03 | 2:04:06 | |
for terrorists and gangsters and veterans being pursued. | 2:04:06 | 2:04:10 | |
That's wrong. It's a completely one-sided situation. | 2:04:10 | 2:04:14 | |
And it's not morally, fundamentally right. | 2:04:14 | 2:04:17 | |
Do you bear any responsibility | 2:04:17 | 2:04:18 | |
for where we are today, given that the militaries | 2:04:18 | 2:04:22 | |
reserve most of their ire for the Blair Government | 2:04:22 | 2:04:25 | |
for the letters of comfort? | 2:04:25 | 2:04:27 | |
It's very, very hard to overstate the depth of feeling that's | 2:04:27 | 2:04:31 | |
still there within the military over those letters of comfort. | 2:04:31 | 2:04:35 | |
They see it as a sign, they see it as pure treachery. | 2:04:35 | 2:04:38 | |
I completely reject any accusation and resent, deeply resent | 2:04:38 | 2:04:43 | |
any accusation of treachery. | 2:04:43 | 2:04:45 | |
I have always been consistent and clear | 2:04:45 | 2:04:48 | |
that it has to apply to everybody. | 2:04:48 | 2:04:49 | |
It has to apply to IRA gunman and bomber | 2:04:49 | 2:04:53 | |
equally as to British soldiers. | 2:04:53 | 2:04:55 | |
A judge blamed the Downey case on a catastrophic | 2:04:57 | 2:05:00 | |
mistake by the PSNI. | 2:05:00 | 2:05:02 | |
However, a second murder suspect was found to have received a letter, | 2:05:03 | 2:05:08 | |
and veterans believe that shows republicans were protected. | 2:05:08 | 2:05:12 | |
But the office of Barra McGrory, the Director of Public Prosecutions, | 2:05:13 | 2:05:18 | |
said it is has been made clear that there is no amnesty system in place | 2:05:18 | 2:05:22 | |
for any type of individual. | 2:05:22 | 2:05:24 | |
When he was Sinn Fein's lawyer, | 2:05:37 | 2:05:39 | |
Mr McGrory was involved in identifying who might receive | 2:05:39 | 2:05:42 | |
the letters, although he has said he had, "no hand, | 2:05:42 | 2:05:45 | |
"act or part in the devising of the scheme." | 2:05:45 | 2:05:48 | |
Since he became DPP, he has referred | 2:05:50 | 2:05:53 | |
nine Troubles cases to the PSNI for further investigation, | 2:05:53 | 2:05:58 | |
four related to Army killings. | 2:05:58 | 2:06:00 | |
But it's the perceived connection between his past and present roles | 2:06:02 | 2:06:06 | |
that has made him an object of attack from the veterans. | 2:06:06 | 2:06:10 | |
The Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland | 2:06:12 | 2:06:17 | |
cannot be considered impartial. | 2:06:17 | 2:06:20 | |
Sack the DPP, and save our troops. | 2:06:20 | 2:06:23 | |
At this election campaign meeting in Cookstown for mainly | 2:06:26 | 2:06:29 | |
Unionist victims' groups, the prosecutions were | 2:06:29 | 2:06:32 | |
high on the agenda. | 2:06:32 | 2:06:33 | |
Within this room and further afield, there are a lot of retired members | 2:06:35 | 2:06:39 | |
of the security forces worried for their future. | 2:06:39 | 2:06:42 | |
They're coming to me saying, we cannot sleep at night. | 2:06:42 | 2:06:44 | |
We are being revisited by, | 2:06:44 | 2:06:48 | |
re-traumatised by, incidents in the past. | 2:06:48 | 2:06:51 | |
And it's not like any of these soldiers or police went out | 2:06:51 | 2:06:54 | |
with death in their minds. | 2:06:54 | 2:06:56 | |
They went out to do a job of work and were faced with an incident | 2:06:56 | 2:07:00 | |
which they had to react to very, very quickly. | 2:07:00 | 2:07:03 | |
They did not set out with murder in their heart. | 2:07:03 | 2:07:06 | |
Politicians were invited to sign a pledge opposing any Troubles | 2:07:06 | 2:07:10 | |
amnesty but also seeking some legal protection for the security forces. | 2:07:10 | 2:07:15 | |
Audience members also had the Director of Public Prosecutions | 2:07:15 | 2:07:19 | |
on their mind. | 2:07:19 | 2:07:21 | |
We'll just move on to the next question. | 2:07:21 | 2:07:23 | |
It's from Trevor. A very simple question. Do you believe | 2:07:23 | 2:07:26 | |
Barry McGrory is impartial? | 2:07:26 | 2:07:28 | |
LAUGHTER | 2:07:28 | 2:07:31 | |
Trevor, I'm very conscious I don't have parliamentary privilege here. | 2:07:35 | 2:07:39 | |
That's the first thing to say. | 2:07:39 | 2:07:41 | |
How should I put this? | 2:07:43 | 2:07:44 | |
There is very deep concern among many within the community | 2:07:44 | 2:07:48 | |
about the referrals that are being made by the | 2:07:48 | 2:07:52 | |
Director of Public Prosecutions. | 2:07:52 | 2:07:56 | |
I think, you know, people will judge for themselves | 2:07:56 | 2:08:00 | |
the number of cases that have been, I suppose, referred by | 2:08:00 | 2:08:05 | |
the Director of Public Prosecutions. | 2:08:05 | 2:08:07 | |
And I think, Trevor, you'll appreciate, the limitations | 2:08:07 | 2:08:10 | |
and what we can say on that. | 2:08:10 | 2:08:12 | |
But that night the DUP representative defended | 2:08:12 | 2:08:16 | |
Barra McGrory's integrity. | 2:08:16 | 2:08:18 | |
I'll echo, I think, Tom's cautiousness | 2:08:18 | 2:08:22 | |
in the sense of there isn't parliamentary privilege and | 2:08:22 | 2:08:24 | |
obviously he has come out and very strongly denied allegations. | 2:08:24 | 2:08:28 | |
If there is any skewing or any, differential in treatment then | 2:08:29 | 2:08:34 | |
that must be identified and he will be answerable | 2:08:34 | 2:08:37 | |
to that and for that. | 2:08:37 | 2:08:39 | |
Sorry. Maybe I've made a mistake here. | 2:08:40 | 2:08:43 | |
Was he not involved in the make-up of the "on the run" letters | 2:08:43 | 2:08:48 | |
before he took on that new position? | 2:08:48 | 2:08:50 | |
What the director has said very clearly | 2:08:50 | 2:08:52 | |
is that he has been very, very open and said that he | 2:08:52 | 2:08:55 | |
has not been biased. | 2:08:55 | 2:08:56 | |
He has looked at what has come before him, and in his professional | 2:08:56 | 2:08:59 | |
integrity he has referred on where he has to do that | 2:08:59 | 2:09:01 | |
and he does have legal obligations there. | 2:09:01 | 2:09:03 | |
The DPP's office says the Army cases are a fraction of the legacy | 2:09:03 | 2:09:08 | |
prosecutions he's brought, the majority involving republicans. | 2:09:08 | 2:09:13 | |
And Mr McGrory has said he represented many people, | 2:09:14 | 2:09:17 | |
including police and soldiers. | 2:09:17 | 2:09:21 | |
He told BBC Newsline that as DPP he applies the law evenly | 2:09:21 | 2:09:25 | |
and his former clients have no bearing on his decisions. | 2:09:25 | 2:09:29 | |
And he resents the criticism. | 2:09:29 | 2:09:32 | |
I can't speak for the motivation of those who say | 2:09:32 | 2:09:35 | |
such things but some of them ought to know better. | 2:09:35 | 2:09:38 | |
If they're not trying to influence me, then | 2:09:38 | 2:09:41 | |
they are certainly being personally insulting and they are questioning | 2:09:41 | 2:09:47 | |
my integrity. | 2:09:47 | 2:09:48 | |
Who I have represented in the past really has | 2:09:48 | 2:09:50 | |
got nothing to do with it. | 2:09:50 | 2:09:52 | |
I apply the rule of law as it is and decisions are taken | 2:09:52 | 2:09:57 | |
on the evidence and in the public interest. | 2:09:57 | 2:10:01 | |
Last month, when Irish Foreign Minister | 2:10:01 | 2:10:03 | |
Charlie Flanagan delivered the annual Pat Finucane lecture, | 2:10:03 | 2:10:07 | |
Mr McGrory was on hand to hear him defend the decision | 2:10:07 | 2:10:11 | |
to prosecute soldiers. | 2:10:11 | 2:10:13 | |
Regardless of who someone was and regardless | 2:10:13 | 2:10:16 | |
of what they were doing there is a requirement | 2:10:16 | 2:10:19 | |
to effectively and meticulously investigate the matter | 2:10:19 | 2:10:22 | |
of their death. | 2:10:22 | 2:10:24 | |
And thereafter, if the threshold of proof is met, a prosecution must | 2:10:24 | 2:10:29 | |
actively and vigorously be pursued. | 2:10:29 | 2:10:33 | |
The eldest son of murdered solicitor Pat Finucane said | 2:10:33 | 2:10:37 | |
the criticism of Mr McGrory is wholly unjustified. | 2:10:37 | 2:10:42 | |
I think the conflation of a lawyer | 2:10:42 | 2:10:46 | |
with the perceived sympathies or beliefs of their client | 2:10:46 | 2:10:54 | |
is probably one of the most dangerous things one can do | 2:10:54 | 2:10:58 | |
in a democratic society. I do not think that this deliberate | 2:10:58 | 2:11:03 | |
association of Mr McGrory with persons he may have represented | 2:11:03 | 2:11:08 | |
in a previous capacity is in any way helpful or justified | 2:11:08 | 2:11:12 | |
and I think it should stop. | 2:11:12 | 2:11:14 | |
New negotiations began at Stormont yesterday, | 2:11:17 | 2:11:20 | |
with legacy issues near the top of the agenda. | 2:11:20 | 2:11:23 | |
Both Sinn Fein and the DUP have conflicting demands about the past | 2:11:24 | 2:11:29 | |
that can only be answered by the British Government. | 2:11:29 | 2:11:32 | |
People who have served the State who have been | 2:11:33 | 2:11:37 | |
in the armed forces I think | 2:11:37 | 2:11:39 | |
are entitled to a level of legal protection. | 2:11:39 | 2:11:42 | |
What we're talking about is not an amnesty, | 2:11:42 | 2:11:44 | |
but a statute of limitations which would mean you set a time period | 2:11:44 | 2:11:50 | |
after which it's no longer possible to pursue those cases. | 2:11:50 | 2:11:54 | |
There's never been a statute of limitation for murder. | 2:11:54 | 2:11:56 | |
If there is evidence that someone has committed a murder then | 2:11:56 | 2:11:59 | |
of course that person is liable to prosecution. | 2:11:59 | 2:12:02 | |
What we're talking about here are historic investigations | 2:12:02 | 2:12:05 | |
and the statute of limitations would relate | 2:12:05 | 2:12:07 | |
to reopening investigations. | 2:12:07 | 2:12:10 | |
The question is, is everyone equal under the law? | 2:12:10 | 2:12:13 | |
They're arguing for a statute of limitations for State forces | 2:12:13 | 2:12:17 | |
so clearly they don't believe in equality under the law. | 2:12:17 | 2:12:20 | |
So on the one hand they're saying we want everyone equal under the law | 2:12:20 | 2:12:25 | |
and on the other hand saying, except if they're State forces. | 2:12:25 | 2:12:29 | |
Then they should be more equal than others. | 2:12:29 | 2:12:31 | |
It's practical immunity over the last 40 years | 2:12:31 | 2:12:34 | |
and now they're trying to legalise it. | 2:12:34 | 2:12:37 | |
Each individual, whether they are State forces | 2:12:37 | 2:12:38 | |
or not State forces, whether they were in the | 2:12:38 | 2:12:41 | |
British Army, or used to be in the IRA, or whether in a loyalist | 2:12:41 | 2:12:44 | |
organisation, unionist paramilitary, whatever they happen to be | 2:12:44 | 2:12:47 | |
if you want to deal with it, then deal with it on an equal basis. | 2:12:47 | 2:12:50 | |
The problem for all politicians is that an end to prosecutions, | 2:12:50 | 2:12:54 | |
whether for one side or all sides, requires victims to relinquish | 2:12:54 | 2:12:59 | |
any hope of seeing justice. | 2:12:59 | 2:13:01 | |
What has to happen here, and this is a very hard thing for families | 2:13:03 | 2:13:08 | |
and victims to accept, is that if you do not want your elderly | 2:13:08 | 2:13:16 | |
relative former soldier prosecuted then you've got to accept | 2:13:16 | 2:13:21 | |
that the elderly former republican who did something totally wrong | 2:13:21 | 2:13:27 | |
and illegal and murderous has got to be exempt from being pursued | 2:13:27 | 2:13:35 | |
and prosecuted as well. | 2:13:35 | 2:13:37 | |
What would you say to those people | 2:13:37 | 2:13:38 | |
who've said it's been 45 years, it's time to draw a line in the sand? | 2:13:38 | 2:13:43 | |
For Northern Ireland's future, prosperity and well being, | 2:13:43 | 2:13:46 | |
let it go. | 2:13:46 | 2:13:47 | |
I have heard that many times. | 2:13:47 | 2:13:49 | |
Heard it many times, | 2:13:49 | 2:13:51 | |
and to me it's an insult. | 2:13:51 | 2:13:53 | |
There are people out there crying out for justice for the loss | 2:13:53 | 2:13:57 | |
of their loved ones. It will never, ever go away. | 2:13:57 | 2:14:00 | |
Don't get me wrong, this is not about vengeance, | 2:14:02 | 2:14:05 | |
this is about justice. | 2:14:05 | 2:14:07 | |
Others say the only way forward is to choose between prosecutions | 2:14:07 | 2:14:11 | |
of all sides or none. | 2:14:11 | 2:14:14 | |
I think the very difficult consideration we all have to make, | 2:14:14 | 2:14:20 | |
do we go all out one way or all out the other? | 2:14:20 | 2:14:23 | |
Do we prosecute, or do we amnesty? | 2:14:23 | 2:14:27 | |
I understand and realise completely the difficulty that that decision | 2:14:27 | 2:14:31 | |
will make for some people, but I'm afraid it's a Rubicon that | 2:14:31 | 2:14:36 | |
in my view simply has to be crossed. | 2:14:36 | 2:14:38 | |
For now, the veterans are planning more, and they say bigger, | 2:14:42 | 2:14:45 | |
marches to put pressure on the Government. | 2:14:45 | 2:14:48 | |
Our argument and our beef is with the government | 2:14:49 | 2:14:52 | |
and the politicians. | 2:14:52 | 2:14:54 | |
It is not with the republican community. | 2:14:54 | 2:14:57 | |
I have heard the republican | 2:14:57 | 2:14:59 | |
side of Sinn Fein saying we have to move on, we need closure. | 2:14:59 | 2:15:03 | |
Closure applies to both sides and it strikes me and it strikes fellow | 2:15:03 | 2:15:07 | |
veterans that republican Sinn Fein, IRA effectively want closure | 2:15:07 | 2:15:13 | |
for themselves, but they don't want closure for us. | 2:15:13 | 2:15:16 | |
The past, like old soldiers, will not fade away. | 2:15:17 | 2:15:22 | |
We cannot help but continue to remember it. | 2:15:22 | 2:15:25 | |
The question is can we, or can we not agree on a way to go forward | 2:15:25 | 2:15:30 | |
into the future together? | 2:15:30 | 2:15:32 |