21/03/2017 Spotlight

Hello and welcome to Spotlight Special, where our studio audience

put questions to our panel of politicians and commentators on the

week's talking points. None bigger today than the death of Martin

McGuinness at the age of 66. Tributes have paid fulsome praise to

his efforts as a peacemaker, without forgetting his role as an IRA leader

in the Troubles. We are joined by the former Secretary of State Owen

Paterson. Joan Burton, said Jeffrey Donaldson, the DUP MP, Lesley

Riddoch who spent her formative years in Northern Ireland but now

plies her trade in Scotland as political writer and commentator.

Brian Feeney and the formal Sinn Fein MLA Daithi McKay. That's our

panel tonight for the Spotlight Special. And of course you can take

part at home. Here's how you can get in touch on all of tonight's topics.

You can text at the standard rate. You can also phone us. Standard

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at twitter. The details are on your screen now.

Let's get right into the questions. The first one comes from Michael

Taylor, a historian. How should history remember Martin

McGuinness? How should history remember Martin

McGuinness? He passed away in the early hours of this morning at the

age of 66. The airways have been full of tributes to him of various

kinds. Enda Kenny said he was a peacemaker who took the path from

terror to truce. Tony Blair said he was a formidable foe and a

formidable peacemaker. Norman Tebbit said he was a coward who never

atoned for his crimes. This lots and lots of different Let's hear what

our panic panel think. Jeffrey Donaldson, how should history

remember Martin McGuinness? I think it will be a mixed memory.

Today, across Northern Ireland there will be many people with very

different views on Martin McGuinness. Our thoughts are with

the McGuinness family, losing a husband and father is a dramatic

thing for any family. Equally there are families in Northern Ireland who

are missing husbands and fathers and other family members because of the

violent campaign of the IRA. Today will have been a difficult day for

them. I think that history will look at

Martin McGuinness and his role as a senior figure in the Provisional IRA

and asked many questions about that. All of those people, those thousands

of innocent people, did they have to die to get us to where we are today?

I think also, and as a Unionist and someone who served in the security

forces, who lost family, friends, comrades in the Troubles I recognise

the journey Martin McGuinness has been an. That he had a great

influence in bringing the Provisional IRA to the point of

laying down their arms and then being fair -- ending their campaign

of violence and we recognise that role as well. I think there will be

mixed reviews, historically. Your personal thoughts, what will your

final thought be? I worked with Martin McGuinness as ministers

together in the office of Deputy First Minister and I recognised that

he did want to make a positive contribution. That his focus had

shifted from the past to the future, but we can't escape the legacy of

our troubled past. Like many people in Northern Ireland, I had mixed

feelings about today but today's a day to recognise that Martin

McGuinness was a family man, and his family are mourning his loss this

evening. Owen Paterson, you dealt with Martin

McGuinness urged Shadow Secretary of State and Secretary of State. How do

you think history will judge him? You are right. I first came here

three years as the Shadow Secretary of State and Denver two years was

the real Secretary of State, so I met Martin McGuinness on a regular

basis for five years. By the time I had met him he was pursuing his

political ambitions of promoting a united Ireland by entirely

legitimate political means, as a Democrat politician. With using

institutions here to promote his views and his ambition. And being a

conservative and Unionist I didn't believe in his end destination for

the Northern Ireland, but we had an absolutely cordial and constructive

relationship. But, and Jeffrey raised this, I had to remember all

along that he began pursuing those ambitions and those political

ambitions remained with him all his life, by the most appalling, violent

terrorist campaign, which caused many deaths, dreadful destruction

and shocking human misery. I think you have to balance that.

So he obviously was a man of great character and strength, and when he

decided to turn his back on violence and move to his Democratic mode, his

power over his colleagues was obviously very, very strong. He

played an absolutely vital part in moving the republican movement to

adopting peaceful means to promote their aims. But sadly there are many

people watching this programme tonight, and many victims no longer

here, they happily did not have that choice. I think we should remember

them and all those people. And Martin McGuinness? And Martin

McGuinness's own family. I saw interviews with him today,

historical interviews in which he said he felt he had no choice when

he joined the IRA. There was no other way of combating what was

going on, in his view. There would be many people here that

would no far more about the background. Having come into it, at

the time there were Democratic peaceful institutions, you could get

elected as Council here be an MP, you could join a political party,

and there was a political party that wanted to pursue his aims, by

peaceful means. So I never really understood why there was this

campaign of appalling violence which caused such terrible damage and

human misery. As Jeffrey said, it perhaps could have been reached by

peaceful means much earlier. Daithi McKay, can you help Owen Paterson

come to that conclusion? I want to express my condolences to his

family, Bernie and the clan. Today is a very difficult days for them

but I think Martin will be remembered as a peacemaker. He was a

great negotiator, but I think it's real skill set over the last decade

has been in relationships and relationship building. Often, and

Jeffrey referred to it, things in the executive have been rocky at

times, but Martin was a steadying force within the executive and the

Assembly and the institutions that lasted for a whole ten years. That

was a magnificent achievement. Of course, we all come from different

backgrounds and Martin came on a journey, Ian Paisley came on a

journey, the Conservative Party and their policy towards Ireland came on

a journey as well. I don't think Martin should be singled out in the

way he has been today, because he made an enormous contribution to

bedding down the institutions. The real skill set he had was in

relationship building. When you see the tributes that have been made by

the former First Minister David Trimble, by the Reverend David

Latimer, and by the Paisley family, you get a real sense that Martin was

absolutely genuine about making for peace and healing those old wounds.

Some people questioned today if it was a change of head, in other words

a change of tactics or heart, what do you think? A change of heart. But

Martin was always somebody, in terms of the great political debates who

used his head. When difficult decisions had to be made, in terms

of Sinn Fein joining the policing board, even the terms of signing up

to the Good Friday agreement, Martin Laird with his head because he could

see that by making compromises that wasn't necessarily a weakness. That

we could go forward, make compromises and come out in a better

position on the other side. And that has proven to be the case. I think

it is also timely because we are in a difficult position in terms of the

institutions at the moment. There negotiations ongoing and hopefully

this will people cause to reflect on where we have actually come from as

a society and the need to get our heads round the table and make a

deal over the coming days and weeks, because we cannot move back, because

what Martin wanted over the past ten years was to ensure the institutions

worked and delivered fairly. It was suggested Gerry Adams wasn't perhaps

as committed as much as Martin McGuinness, do you think that is a

reasonable comment? There will be a number of comments today on a number

of political points to be made. Only time will tell how the Sinn Fein

negotiating team will approach the present talks. But at the end of the

day, I think today is not a time for political point scoring between the

different parties. I think we can put that off for a few days whilst a

community in Derry is in mourning. You will hear from the age of three

to 13 so you know all about it. What is your view of the legacy of Martin

McGuinness? Well actually I think you're

experiencing it tonight. I'm sitting here as someone who's lived in

Scotland since I was 13 and I'm just astonished by the restraint and care

that you're all taking, actually. People are able to see both sides of

the man's character and his legacy and taking care to pay tribute to

both. That in itself is quite astonishing thing, given the amount

of real damage that's happened. It's probably fairer to say there is a

convention on the day that someone passes away there is restraint. That

restraint may not be there in a few days, I don't know, but I think that

should be pointed out. If you are listening to the tributes that have

come in from all sorts of directions... There was a fairly

straight talking comment from Norman Tebbit, as we would expect, but

obviously his family were so deeply involved. But when you look at the

other remarks from Colin Parry and people like this, with a testament

to the bravery of turning your back on the direction you state your life

and to take your community in a different direction, all of these

things are unexpected. I suppose that's what... I met Martin

McGuinness in the 1990s when I took a posse over from Channel 4. In one

Martin McGuinness and David Ervine how astonishingly unpredictable

those two and both dead. Both were people who were unconventional and

whose being unconventional allowed them to take people to places that

perhaps you would never expect politics could reach. You saw for

example pictures of Martin McGuinness meeting the Queen. What

were the thoughts that would have gone through your head as someone

who was in this? I think we have all seen that little clip played over

and over again, with the Queen audibly saying, I'm still alive.

There's a moment where you cannot believe either side's exchange of

that, the hugeness of what they are involved in. And equally Prince

Charles, being able to overcome the death of his uncle. All of these

things have been admirable, actually, in their different ways.

Martin McGuinness stands in the middle of it all. Brian Feeney,

perhaps you could as a columnist pass some comment on the issue of

restraint on a day like this and also throw some light on where you

think the legacy lies. Well, I think it's too early to talk

about legacy, it's too early to talk in terms of how history will see

him. I should also say I'm not noted for my restraint in columns that I

write. I'd like to put it in a bit of

perspective. The suggestion all the time is someone who is engaged in an

armed struggle or military campaign or resistance or what ever you want

to call it, that is mutually exclusive that that person can only

be either engaged in an armed struggle or can be engaged in

politics. The fact of the matter is the IRA sued for peace on a number

of occasions. As early as 1972 the British government invited a

delegation which included Martin McGuinness to London to discuss

peace terms. The meeting was a disaster, but the sort of thing he

did doesn't automatically mean he wasn't interested in a political

settlement from very early on. There are a number of occasions where

British government has been involved with other organisations, where

they've ultimately dealt with terrorists who became Prime

Minister. For example the Prime Minister of Israel, was a very

successful terrorist in the 1940s and became Prime Minister of Israel,

killed a lot of British soldiers before he moved into politics. So

isn't new to be exclusive. It's not necessarily the case that Martin

McGuinness was blind, violent figure and then at some point had a dancing

conversion and decided to get involved in politics. He would have

considered he was involved in politics throughout the whole

period. The ceasefire in 72 and in 75, ultimately the British

government, the only thing they could do they did, which was to talk

to the IRA, finally, in 1991. Does the British government accept

that the Irish people have a right to self determination? And

negotiations began from that point. Historically, one of the things that

will be to his credit is that he rode two horses at the same time.

John Major today said that he understood sometimes when the IRA

brought promises because it meant that Martin McGuinness had to bring

the hard men with him. For example, something like the Warrington bomb,

John major said, he had to bring people with him who could have

killed him, whereas John Major had problems in the House of Commons

with certain people that they were not going to kill him. Joan Burton,

what do you think is his legacy? I was in O'Connell Street and the

anniversary of 1916, sitting beside Martin McGuinness, and there was an

army, and the cop flew past, and he was busy taking photos of the fly

past the centre his grandkids. By the time I met him consistently at

North-South ministerial meetings, he was tremendously energised by how

far the peace process had changed the north, and sitting in O'Connell

Street, which consisted of the Irish Army, the Irish Guards, the IRA had

many issues with them and killed quite a number of people, and the

children, like people who have been victims here, and their relatives,

on a day like this, of course it is mixed feelings. We remember his

achievements but you also remember, and is somebody who grew up admiring

John Hume, I like to feel that Gerry and John Hume had an influence on

him that made him reach out that that further. We had another

similarity in our backgrounds. Both of our dads were found workers. The

political situation, which was often people who came from all

backgrounds, both of us... We had an enormous interest in people getting

jobs and people getting decent services, and when they were

retired, having pensions available. We had conversations about the

island of Ireland but to his family, my condolences. He was so proud of

them and they were supportive of him, and he always talked about him,

and they were always with him. In that context, with Jim Allister, who

said Martin McGuinness took his secrets to the grade and his

thoughts were with the victims who never reached the age of 66 and who

never had children and grandchildren. It got the point

where he and Gerry Adams were able recognise and meet with people on

the one by one basis, but they were never able to get to the point where

they would look back and say what was the point of this violence?

Politics would have offered... The somebody who was very skilled at

politics and talking to people, would have offered a much better

read. That is why I am saying John Hume and the peace process started

had enormous critics because of what he undertook and people talk about

crossing bridges, journeys, all I can say is, I just hope the message

that goes out to younger people is that the violence is not necessary.

Politics can get you there but of course politics is a hard and

difficult road and the essence of politics is you have days when you

are up and down. Let's good to our audience. The difficulties some of

us have is that Martin McGuinness said he was proud of his IRA past,

and he said that very recently. That is the difficulty for victims and

others looking on. Was he really a true peacemaker for saying that?

There was no doubt he was a proud republican but if he went through it

all again and not had to go through the conflict, he would have chosen

not to go to the conflict and had a settlement in 19691970, there were

opportunities. What I am saying is Martin and many Republicans were

brought up in the circumstances of the environment they lived in and

people from other countries were in the same circumstance they would

have found themselves doing the same thing. I understand absolutely that

there are different views in terms of Martin, but Republicans have

different views of other players than the conflict. I was thinking

today when Margaret Thatcher died, and she was hated, and Martin

McGuinness made the statement then and said, regardless of her views,

celebrating her death is inappropriate. He showed leadership

even though he had every reason to hate Margaret Thatcher and every

reason to hate many people involved in this conflict. He put that one

side for the better outcomes of this community and is part of Ireland. We

are so much about this legacy. It do not want to be bringing anything

lower on this day for the family, but there was never an apology from

Sinn Fein or from Mr McGuinness about any of the murders that were

carried out. There was regretful lost lives. There was never an

apology made to anybody who was murdered by the IRA. I remember

there being a apology to non-competence. But did there have

to be that the true reconciliation to happen, for Martin McGuinness to

reach out in a meaningful way? I think there has to be. One of the

reasons why we have not yet arrived reconciliation in Northern Ireland

is because we have not had the proper acknowledgement is the need

to happen, we have not had people coming forward and saying, it was

wrong. But if they do not believe it was wrong, they will never say it.

So it will be a long time waiting. Let's C. In the day we are in, the

points made by the audience are very valid points. One of the regrets I

have had is time is marching on and there are many victims I have met

and families saying, we would like to know more about the truth, we

would like to know and hear from the people who have that knowledge and

information, we would like to know why, we would like an explanation as

to why we were targeted, why he or she was killed and what was the

value of that, why did that happen? Those are real questions. We will

move towards the reconciliation we want to see in Northern Ireland.

Those answers have to come. I would just say that there are many sides

to people and from Martin McGuinness turned his back on the Troubles and

entered into politics, he was very compassionate, I called him a

peacemaker, in regards to historical institutions of child abuse, he

welcomed us up the Stormont many times, even two weeks before he

revealed he was very seriously ill. He met us and Protestant and

Catholic people. That was something the DUP never did, always refused to

meet victims of child abuse, even up until this day. Just to put the

record straight, I have met the victims of abuse in my own

constituency. I have met those families and victims. We will not

dwell on this because it is a small but important part. You may be met

one or two. Let's move on. Apology necessary, Brian Feeney? He can't

apologise obviously but... There will never be an apology because the

people involved in the IRA consider what they were doing was justifiable

and correct. If you disagree with that, that is the way it is, though

the people do. There has never been an apology from unionists for what

they did for 50 years. They never admit they were responsible. David

Trimble did say Northern Ireland was a courthouse for X. Is that an

apology? -- for Catholics. Out of 50 years of systematic discrimination,

that is a tiny thing to say. Refusing to build houses in case it

increased the vote in places like Dungannon Deri, what can people at

those? There is no apology and nobody asking for it because there

is not one forthcoming. Get real. They did it because they thought

they were doing something that was justifiable. I do not happen to

think it was, the vast majority of people do not think it was, but the

people who volunteered and did those things, they will not say, my life

was a mistake. Let's leave it there and move on. Nicola Sturgeon once a

second referendum for Brexit. Why can't we have a bird of poll --

border poll? The Prime Minister has said now is not the time. MSPs were

debating in Holyrood today and of course Sinn Fein have been saying,

it is time for a voter poll is well. Lesley Riddoch, is the Prime

Minister right? I was in the Scottish Parliament today where they

started of the debate and the risk of sounding picky, it will actually

be the Scottish Parliament needs to decide to enable Nicola Sturgeon to

ask for that. These are not semantic things, this is the not the SNP as a

party wanting this. This is the Scottish Parliament, democratic

institution, deciding to that motion. At the moment, people are

kind of a bit gobsmacked at the speed of events in Scotland and that

is strange because we have been heading for this car crash since

last June. 62% of Scots do not want to leave Europe. All the indications

and opinion polls are it is the same percentage now, perhaps even more.

There has been an attempt to get differentiated deal for Scotland.

That polls suggest most people do not want another referendum. The way

the polls have asked is, do you want one this year? Nobody, including

Nicola Sturgeon above all, once one this year. 48% of people think that

Theresa May's response, where she basically snubbed pretty well all

the devolved parliaments, including the Northern Ireland assembly, that

that was a mistake. So we are in the situation at the moment where people

want to see something better, still can hardly believe that a UK

Government will run roughshod over everybody that disagreed with them

apart from the City of London, Nissan Gibraltar and the island of

Ireland, you would have to hope. So Ireland and Scotland will be very

linked because Scottish people are watching to see what solutions you

come up here because of the border is not an active issue in the future

for Ireland, it would be hard for the UK to say, it will be a complete

no-no for an Scotland. Daithi McKay, the Good Friday

agreement allows for a border poll but the Secretary of State thinks

there will be a different outcome. There is no evidence it would be a

different outcome this time round? The Secretary of State would never

be biased in his analysis, I'm sure! I think they go on elections and

such. There is now a unionist majority within the Assembly so

there is doubt over what a referendum outcome might be. I don't

actually like the term border poll. You mean a national list majority.

Sorry? A nationalist majority. A unionist minority in the assembly.

There's a certain grey area that. I don't like the terminology border

poll. I think it conjures up images of negativity of what the border has

represented many people for many years. I think it should be called

an independence referendum, in the same way it was termed in Scotland

and people should put forward their vision of what independence on this

island would look like. I do certainly get a sense that things

are moving. I've spoken to many prominent unionists, especially from

the farming community, would actually accept a change in the

constitutional status, given what they see down the line, in terms of

a potentially hard border, agricultural goods coming down the

goods ink as well. The Brexit minister in London who clearly

doesn't know what the border will look like. There is a lot of

uncertainty out there about people's economic futures. I think we should

have an independence referendum. I would like to see a united Ireland

and a Republican but I would like to listen to other options. That has

been some discussions about a united Ireland, where you would still have

an assembly in Belfast. That is worth considering and certainly

worth debating, but we need to have the debate. I think Brexit coming

over the horizon, there are a lot of concerned communities along the

border and I think we need to start listening to those communities and

the impact that this is going to have on them. Joan Burton, do you

want a border poll? I don't think it is appropriate at

the moment, but there's no doubt that Brexit is an extraordinary,

historical event and it is going to change things and the island of

Ireland. I suspect it's going to change the United Kingdom

enormously, because frankly when you look at the trade between Ireland

and the UK, it's about 60 billion a year back and forward. We have no

idea as yet what's going to happen over the next two years, in terms of

a settlement. I've met people from farming backgrounds in Ulster. Their

families stay here in north and perhaps using meat factories in the

south. The notion that there would be a hard border, leave the politics

out of it, just from the point of view of people with businesses and

jobs, trying to get on with it, is actually incredibly difficult. I

suppose... What you think about this talk of electronic borders. I think

you called it the Lycra option. The Prime Minister Enda Kenny and her

met a few months ago and they said they wanted it frictionless and

seamless. I said it is the Lycra option, it sounds great... In terms

of the different members of the House of Commons who have been

visiting the Republic, a lot of the people who like Owen are pro-Brexit,

are extremely exuberant about it. They don't see any problems, where

as the rest of us... We're living in the 44th year of our membership of

the European Union. Just let me say this, going back to the previous

discussion about Martin McGuinness' death, when Ireland joined the EU, I

think Owen needs to be clear about this. When the Republic joined the

EU, our relationship with Britain shared for ever and for the

positive, because suddenly, sitting around those tables in Brussels, we

were there as equals to the United Kingdom. So the obsession, if you

like, with England as the old enemy change to being equal countries in a

partnership of a union of quite a lot of countries. Are there problems

with the European Union? Yes, of course there are. But we are going

down a road, and perhaps Owen will enlighten us here tonight... Let's

give him the opportunity. In the island of Ireland and the UK,

between both countries there is about 400,000 jobs involved in,

between the two Islands. You're not sanguine but wildly enthusiastic.

How can you reassure Joan Burton and everyone else in this room who is so

concerned? First of all, I ask answer the

question about border poll. I was conscious as Secretary of State it

was important to call for a border poll if the polls showed there was a

chance for a result promoting a united Ireland. The last poll I saw

was in September, which showed 63% wanting to stay within the United

Kingdom and only 22% wanting Northern Ireland to join a united

Ireland. A lot has changed since then. So I'd say there is no grounds

for calling a border poll. But I entirely agree with everything Joan

said. To have a hard border, as is being painted, as this awful, spooky

vision would be an absolute nonsense. The Common travel area,

through some very difficult times between the Republic and the United

Kingdom, has been a huge success. We will get under it... I want to let

you continue but Brian Feeney says Common travel area talk is waffle.

It's not, it's very real. I will let you elaborate and interject O'Brien.

First of all parties on all sides are clear we want to keep the Common

travel area. Has been a report from both houses saying they wanted to

keep it. When I was here the then Immigration Minister signed an

understanding, upgrading the Common travel area around the whole thing,

which has been an enormous advantage.

On the issue of the border, there are just so many international cases

where modern technology shows you can have different regimes, and

there is one today on the island of Ireland. There are different tax

regimes in Northern Ireland and in Southern Ireland and it's not a

problem. Today 10,500 trucks will go across the border from Ontario to

Detroit and another 5000 across the border at Buffalo. These are what

the Americans happily describe as alien trucks with alien drivers and

alien goods and they hardly bothered to change gear. If you look at the

Russian Finnish border, that's gone down from two days to about half an

hour. If you look at what the Iranians and Pakistanis have done,

about as fraught border as anywhere in the world, that has been the

trial... That is a hard border with soft bits. These are real hard

borders. There is such good now, Joan rightly says Bigfoot between

the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom, such huge trade,

there will be a sensible arrangement. As the Taoiseach and

power Prime Minister have said, and all doable with modern technology.

And it happens every day. The TR I system has been going since the

1950s. Something like 3 million... Tens of thousands of border

movements per day. There one and a half million tonnes of goods that go

on trucks to the Republic of Ireland and across again to the United

Kingdom's roads and nobody notices, nobody knows about and it happens.

Let's just enjoy technology and work towards seamless border. Absolutely

right. The gentleman in the front row? Do you think talk of a border

poll or the attitude of the Scottish Nationalists as a distraction? And

the people who were opposed to Brexit, they are in denial. That

reality is the United Kingdom voted to come out. All energy should be

focused on getting the best possible deal. Do you agree? And the

gentleman in a checked shirt? I think personally, I was listening

to Daithi McKay, and he talked about uncertainty. To be honest I think

Sinn Fein and the SNP are trying to capitalise on feelings of

uncertainty at the moment by calling for these polls. I would suggest

wisdom dictates and we should wait to see what the agreement looks like

we can have a poll in the future. And the gentleman in the red tie? I

work and lived in Derry. In the moment in the north-west we've had

lots of issues in relation to infrastructure. The last thing we

need is a physical barrier on the border stopping trade coming in. It

would be a disaster for our economy. The constituency was the second

highest of any council district in the British Isles to vote to remain

in. You have to remember Northern Ireland was against it and it's

going to be an absolute disaster. We are concerned at the moment, the

government is concerned with storm and but we should be concerned with

Brexit. Brian Feeney, have you been reassure? By the Secretary of State?

The British government has no policy on what to do with the border.

Furthermore, it's not up to them to decide. Look, it's not up to them to

decide. There are 27 other countries who will sit round the table and

tell the British what they agree. All the talk... But one of them,

Ireland, is going to be going in, saying we pretty much want what

Northern Ireland once. They will try to have... The phrase

Taoiseach and Theresa May used was as seamless border as possible, not

seamless. They won't have one. There are hundreds of millions of litres

of milk transferred north and south every day, to make yoghurt.

Backwards and forwards. You are going to have two different systems

of tax, or tariffs outside the single market and inside. We are

going to be outside the customs union. There's no point shaking your

head. He says there already are different tax regimes. I'm talking

about tariffs. Yes. The North will be outside the single market. So far

what seems to come from most pro-Brexit Tories is your leaving

the single market and you're also probably leaving the customs union,

maybe with some reservations around financial services and a couple of

other things. But take the situation of the Republic of Ireland and

Northern Ireland and Scotland, and indeed Wales as well. Agriculture

and agricultural exports are of tremendous importance, both in terms

of an farm and jobs in processing. If that is going to revert, if you

are leaving the customs union, as is being suggested, that means that at

the very worst case scenario, and I hope it won't come to this, you're

going to have two comply with World Trade Organisation rules. In that

case the tariffs or the tax is charged on agricultural imports into

another country... This is getting a little complex for the time we have.

Jeffrey Donaldson, you will be behind Owen Paterson all the way on

this of course about what to say to these concerns?

I made unionists but sometimes you have to pinch yourself when the

people talking up the border are the Nationalists not the Unionists. I

find it difficult to square an argument... We don't want one. Why

do you talk it up all the time then question what you are obsessed with

the border. I forgot about the border years ago. Are we supposed to

believe that? In terms of nationalism... You heard

it first on Spotlight Special! LAUGHTER

I voted for independence last June when I hear Nationalists who want

all this power for themselves, wanting to give the power away to

Brussels, then what is nationalism about? What does it stand for in the

modern Europe when Nationalists say we want to give all the power away

to these unelected people in Brussels? I'm Unionists, I believe

in the United Kingdom, and that's where we are going to remain.

APPLAUSE Go-ahead, sir.

Wouldn't it make more sense to put the border in the Irish Sea and have

oil of Ireland together? That was the suggestion of Mervyn King, the

former governor of the Bank of England will stop we can discuss

that. Gentleman in the white shirt? Just to clear up your point on the

border and why we are so obsessed with it. As Brian Feeney said

earlier, Irish people got into these negotiations because we wanted

self-determination. We're now getting dragged out against our

determination. Let me finish. Our concerns with the border, if I had

border goes back up it could wreck the peace process from certain

people's views. From my generation, people who don't want to go back to

that, we don't want to see trouble starting again. Let's unpack that

statement for a moment, unpack the statement we've just heard. They had

border could threaten the peace process. In other words, the guns

and bombs will come out again because certain people can't access

that we have a democratic vote and the vote didn't go the way they

wanted. I don't believe in that, I believe in democracy. If the

decision in 1998, if there was a referendum here... I voted against

and lost the vote and I accepted the Democratic outcome. That's what

democracy means. When you have a vote, the United Kingdom vote on the

boat doesn't go the way you want it, please don't threaten us with guns

and bombs because you don't like the democratic outcome. Scotland also

voted to remain, 62-38. How do you address that problem, that question

of nationalism? We talk about what we could expect

for Brexit. As far as tariffs are concerned, what is the script with

the Tory party? At the moment, we're being told in Scotland that the

powers over agriculture and fisheries will not come back to the

Scottish Parliament because there might be different harassed in

different parts of Britain. It seems like there is one set of abilities

to seek board is not been proportioned when it is Ireland,

now, Brexit or difficult, and when it comes to the rest of the UK, it

is just no can do, so which is it? We want reciprocal free trade with

everybody. I give going to give us agriculture and fisheries? Large

elements of it. It is a completely devolved authority. I did this when

I was dean Defra. The UK and before every council meeting, we had a

meeting with devolved ministers, and the SNP minister always turned up

with a long list of requirements for me to get through, hoping I would

fail, but am pretty well everything, even on last night of 2am when we

had negotiations with Chancellor Merkel and her chancellery, I was

trying to get something for Scotland. It is the future I was

asking you about. There has to be one negotiating country representing

all international bodies, and we will get our full seat back with

Brexit in our ability to negotiate and vote on all world bodies. That

has to be the UK. You cannot answer yes or no, can you? We want

reciprocal free trade. There is a huge deficit. This is very

important. We also must move on. Owen Paterson says that the food

coming across, bottle, into America is alien trade and alien food. The

truth is, I'll write in the UK want to trade with each other but as you

rightly said it is 27 member states will make that decision, but it is

not just coming from the Republic of Ireland into the UK that is the

issue here. There are other countries in the EU that export to

the UK. The United Kingdom is only 60% self sufficient and they are

dependent on EU states and another Owen Paterson says he wants free

trade with everyone, he's making a big mistake because I do not think

the 27 member states will allow that. I will have to move you one.

Thank you, sir. We have just run out of time on that one. If the

power-sharing negotiations fail, is there any alternative to either

direct or another election? We note that this is the last week. Time

runs out next Monday at 4:30pm. But the secretary once again it will

organise by the end of this week so parties have time to go back to the

members and discuss it. Is he a super optimist? Who knows? I would

imagine that with all the difficulty stacking up for the Conservatives,

the last thing they want in addition to the Scottish Nationalist threat

is anything to do with trying to run Northern Ireland directly from

London. That has got to be the last thing that this government wants.

Bescot be huge pressure to try to encourage some sort of weight to

keep the show on the road. I would have thought that from the point of

view of a lot of Scottish people, people are really hoping that

something can be pulled together here. We are right at the quick of

the difficulties now. And it does look like has come to one of these

points again, which everyone feared at the beginning would be total

roadblocks. And yet, up until now, through force of character,

perseverance, all sorts of compromise, you have managed to

overcome that, and I'm sure a lot of people are watching and hoping that

somehow you do not get direct rule back in Northern Ireland because

that is a backward and retrograde direction which in Ireland at least

nobody wants. It is the last of three weeks of negotiations and we

have not even had a plenary session yet. It will not happen. There will

not be a settlement on Monday. The basic position is this assumption is

that if Arlene Foster were to stand aside... If she did, it does not

follow the would be an executive because there is a whole list of

other requirements. You listen to what Sinn Fein say and believe the

or you don't. When Gerry Adams says there will be no return to the

status quo and Michelle O'Neill says that there will have to be a

complete change, not business as usual, that means that they have a

list of demands which have nothing to do with forming an executive. So

there will not be an executive formed next week. So an election or

direct rule? The Secretary of State is required to call an election if

there is nothing after three weeks. But there is a cork is from ten

years ago or so when the Secretary of State was not calling an

election, there was a zombie assembly. How dare you! The

Secretary of State must call an election was the decision but in a

reasonable period. Obviously, the Secretary of State could not say, we

will have an election in the next three weeks because of Easter. No

court will step in and told the Secretary of State, you must have an

election on the 27th of June because the court would decide they would

not interfere in politics. So a reasonable period could last a long

time. I know certainly the British government does not want to have

direct rule and no parties want to go back to direct rule. Jeffrey

Donaldson, you have been making encouraging noises in the last

couple of weeks. Are you as convinced as Brian Feeney that

nothing will happen? I do not share his pessimism but I do recognise

that it would be difficult to achieve this in the next few days,

especially with the events of today. But I do believe that what we have

in front of us, the hill to climb in front of us, is not any higher than

the mountains we have climbed already in Northern Ireland. And we

have come a long way. We are at Stormont, we are working daily,

there have been plenty of bilateral discussions, hard-nosed discussions

about the issues that need to be resolved, and I believe we have made

some progress on those issues. Like the Irish language? Give us a clue.

It remains to be seen whether we will get agreement on and I will not

compromise the integrity of the process but if there is a will,

there is a way. I am convinced that if the people in Northern Ireland

want to see Stormont up and running, they want to see parties delivering

government, and some of the parties who let the government after the

elections last year are now indicating to us that they want to

be back in government, and I think that is a positive development, it

is an indication to what we been hearing is, we do not want to go to

direct rule. Direct rule or an election or compromise? I think

everybody wants to see the compromise being made. One of the

biggest problems is the Secretary of State, and he would not be the first

been that position. In that action they believe him to be a player, not

the referee. He made an extraordinary statement in February

in regards to cases from the past involving British soldiers, and to

do that. That was when he said there was a disproportionate emphasis...

And to undermine legal process is was an extraordinary thing to do.

Then he expects to pull up a chair and chaired talks between all the

parties. But ultimately, you have to get on with the DUP, don't you? He

is a key player because one of the issues is dealing with the past and

issues that have hung around since the conflict. All those things need

to be dealt with. There can be no return to direct rule. Republicans

did come out in major numbers to send a clear message that they

needed to be taken more seriously in the future because we have a

unionist minority here in the north and it cannot be the case that we

return to a direct rule situation. If there is to be a situation where

there is no agreement, there has to be some government involvement in

the running of the North. Joan Burton? Get in the! All I can say is

that anyone who sees the benefit of the Belfast agreement to people

right across the community in Northern Ireland has to say that no

one wants to see a return to direct rule. When you think of all those

young people who have grown up, free to go out at night, free to go where

ever they want. How would direct rule change that? I think it would

be deeply unsettling and unacceptable in particular to the

nationalist community at a time during Brexit. I know Jeffrey has a

case that Brexit will be wonderful but I think Brexit is challenging.

To actually forego an administration working in the north of Ireland to

do its best for the North of Ireland, to do its best for the

island of Ireland, I genuinely think there needs to be a stream within

that Brexit process which actually addresses the island of Ireland and

specifically the issue of Northern Ireland. We kind of mood of the

question a little bit. I am saying I do not want to see direct rule, I

think that would be a disaster. What about an election? That is an

enormous insult to all those people who went out and voted and say, you

have to get out then do it again in another few weeks. Provisions exist

within structures to have an extension. The events of the next

few days will mean that various parties negotiations will be turned

up. People need an extra couple of weeks, perhaps President Trump might

send an envoy to deliver his particular insights, it has happened

before. The EU played a role, the Americans played a role, parties

themselves play the role, we will elbow. Let me bring in a couple of

people. We come to this decision again whenever the national start

talking again about problems, we talk about, going back to the old

days, I do not know why it is that whenever nationalists and

republicans stop feeling they are under some kind of pressure, and

that we should do something above the normal conversation, they always

revert back to this, we might go back to the old days. Why is that? I

really hope that political talks go well but please can somebody make

decisions about our budget? It is really important because people need

to know what is happening. It is time to vote for the Alliance Party

because if you vote for Michelle all Arlene, you will get Theresa May.

Owen Paterson, does Theresa May want direct rule at this particular

juncture in history? Absolutely not. There is absolutely nobody I know in

Parliament now wants to see direct rule. I was in the tearoom yesterday

and people were talking about it, in complete agreement... And perhaps

today something good will come out of it. All those news programmes on

the reruns and those terrible films being shown are just a reminder for

everyone of what Northern Ireland has been through and how far it is,,

and it's got there with some hideously difficult decisions being

made by people like John Major earlier on and followed on by Tony

Blair. You had bipartisan agreement in Westminster and in Dublin and

bipartisan agreement in the United States. So there is massive support

for these institutions. There is honestly nobody in the tearoom who

wants direct rule at all. So I think there's a few days left. I thought

it was four o'clock on Monday afternoon... That's what I said. You

said 4:30pm. I beg your pardon, I'm sorry! The lady at the back is

absolutely spot on. Somebody has got to set a budget. Bills have got to

be paid. I keep in touch with Northern Ireland and I talk to

people here quite a lot and see if I can help in some ways. I can tell

you, there is absolute exasperation with the political class at the

moment, in not getting together and working together... What is the

problem? It's a local politicians. It's not for some Westminster

politician to swan in, it's for the local politicians to sit down. There

have been nine years of effort and misery and hard work on three major

international governments to get things up and running and now there

are days left in which to get the working -- them working again. I

just hope everyone will go back home later, there will be more news

programmes tonight... Just remember what Northern Ireland has been

through and the support internationally to get Northern

Ireland have these institutions. They need to be up and running by

four o'clock, possibly for 30 PM, in the afternoon. The lady at the front

row there. I agree that direct rule is a

retrograde step. But, for example, if we had direct rule for a short

period, somebody might finally ring about efficiency in areas like

health, where we have had successive reports about closing hospitals and

nobody, including the latest minister Michele O'Neil has done

anything about it. Thank you, the gentleman just behind you?

To avoid situations like the one we are in, with the possibility of

eight cross community coalition in the fume future help? -- in the

future help? I think the majority of people do not want direct rule but

whenever they come to a settlement this time, it has to be a definitive

settlement. It can't be yet another answer to yet another crisis.

Charities and community groups across the North are having to let

people go. Every year it seems to be the same. A budget crisis, nothing

can be agreed. This solution has to be definitive. I think it has to

address issues that were agreed in the past, like an Irish language and

Bill of Rights. Everyone the table nodding in agreement. We will leave

the last word on this occasion with our audience. Thank you. Thank you

to our panel, thank you to our studio audience who have been most

enthusiastic and you are home for watching. You can continue to debate

online using the hashtag spotlight NIA. Until next time, a very good

night. -- using #SpotlightNI.