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It's just five days since Martin McGuinness's funeral provided | 3:16:16 | 3:16:20 | |
this moment of accord. | 3:16:20 | 3:16:22 | |
But the coming together did not last. | 3:16:23 | 3:16:26 | |
That handshake represented a reaching out, but the inclusivity | 3:16:26 | 3:16:30 | |
that that represents was not then carried forward into the talks. | 3:16:30 | 3:16:35 | |
The DUP didn't approach it with the right attitude. | 3:16:35 | 3:16:38 | |
They weren't prepared to bring | 3:16:38 | 3:16:39 | |
forward mechanisms and deal with the issues. | 3:16:39 | 3:16:42 | |
The talks have collapsed. There is no government. | 3:16:42 | 3:16:45 | |
Stormont once again is in crisis. | 3:16:45 | 3:16:48 | |
It is extremely disappointing that an Executive | 3:16:48 | 3:16:51 | |
has not been formed in Northern Ireland today. | 3:16:51 | 3:16:55 | |
As the Prime Minister triggers Brexit, the union is on her mind. | 3:16:55 | 3:16:59 | |
When this great union of nations, England, Scotland, Wales and | 3:16:59 | 3:17:03 | |
Northern Ireland, sets its mind on something and works together | 3:17:03 | 3:17:07 | |
with determination, we are an unstoppable force. | 3:17:07 | 3:17:11 | |
But have nationalists' electoral gains put the union on the line? | 3:17:11 | 3:17:15 | |
It also clearly was a vote for Irish unity. | 3:17:15 | 3:17:18 | |
While one key constant of the devolved era is gone. | 3:17:18 | 3:17:22 | |
..was I physically able or capable of fighting an intensive | 3:17:23 | 3:17:28 | |
five, six-week election in the current state that I'm in? | 3:17:28 | 3:17:33 | |
And the answer to that was no. | 3:17:33 | 3:17:36 | |
Even though it... | 3:17:36 | 3:17:39 | |
breaks my heart. | 3:17:39 | 3:17:40 | |
It's more than 20 years since Martin McGuinness led his Sinn Fein | 3:17:46 | 3:17:50 | |
team into this building for the first official talks with the | 3:17:50 | 3:17:54 | |
British government. | 3:17:54 | 3:17:55 | |
From that point he was focused on rebuilding political institutions. | 3:17:55 | 3:18:00 | |
Over the last decade he was key to sustaining government at Stormont. | 3:18:00 | 3:18:05 | |
He built it up, but he also tore it down. | 3:18:05 | 3:18:08 | |
So what's next now that he's gone? | 3:18:08 | 3:18:11 | |
It wasn't a state funeral but it looked a bit like one. | 3:18:34 | 3:18:38 | |
Right down to the flag-covered coffin allowed into the church. | 3:18:38 | 3:18:42 | |
A special exception made for Martin McGuinness. | 3:18:42 | 3:18:45 | |
Vast crowds of people came from the Bogside and far beyond. | 3:18:46 | 3:18:51 | |
Political leaders of all shades. Prime ministers past and present. | 3:18:51 | 3:18:56 | |
Presidents. And of course Bill Clinton stole the show. | 3:18:56 | 3:19:01 | |
They asked me to speak for three minutes. | 3:19:01 | 3:19:03 | |
He could do this in 30 seconds. I can just hear him now. | 3:19:03 | 3:19:07 | |
"Here's my eulogy. I fought, I made peace, I made politics." | 3:19:07 | 3:19:12 | |
He earned the right to ask us | 3:19:13 | 3:19:19 | |
to honour his legacy by our living. | 3:19:19 | 3:19:24 | |
To finish the work that is there to be done. | 3:19:24 | 3:19:29 | |
But what is that legacy? | 3:19:29 | 3:19:32 | |
Martin McGuinness was not a terrorist. | 3:19:32 | 3:19:36 | |
CHEERING | 3:19:37 | 3:19:39 | |
Martin McGuinness was a freedom fighter. | 3:19:39 | 3:19:43 | |
CHEERING | 3:19:43 | 3:19:46 | |
There was no greater way to insult my community, | 3:19:46 | 3:19:50 | |
to devalue them and to debase them, | 3:19:50 | 3:19:53 | |
by saying that a man was a freedom fighter who'd done | 3:19:53 | 3:19:57 | |
all that Martin McGuinness had done in his early years. | 3:19:57 | 3:20:00 | |
The paradox of Martin McGuinness the peacemaker is that his career | 3:20:04 | 3:20:08 | |
began in violence. | 3:20:08 | 3:20:10 | |
He first emerged in the early 1970s as a spokesperson for what was | 3:20:18 | 3:20:23 | |
a new, violent organisation. | 3:20:23 | 3:20:26 | |
None of our intelligence units from the Waterside... | 3:20:28 | 3:20:33 | |
The Provisional IRA. | 3:20:33 | 3:20:35 | |
A group that rapidly left its mark on Derry. | 3:20:37 | 3:20:40 | |
EXPLOSION | 3:20:40 | 3:20:42 | |
EXPLOSION | 3:20:46 | 3:20:48 | |
And a group that also in this city came under the control of | 3:20:48 | 3:20:51 | |
Martin McGuinness. | 3:20:51 | 3:20:53 | |
Now, as the officer commanding the Derry part of the IRA | 3:20:55 | 3:20:59 | |
Provisional operation, can you say whether the bombing is likely | 3:20:59 | 3:21:03 | |
to stop in the near future in response to any public demand? | 3:21:03 | 3:21:07 | |
Well, er, we will always take into considerations the feelings | 3:21:07 | 3:21:11 | |
of the people of Derry and these feelings will be passed on to | 3:21:11 | 3:21:14 | |
our GHQ in Dublin, you know. | 3:21:14 | 3:21:15 | |
Even at the age of 21, | 3:21:15 | 3:21:17 | |
Martin McGuinness already stood out as a charismatic leader. | 3:21:17 | 3:21:22 | |
He had a kind of angelic-looking face, innocent-looking face, | 3:21:22 | 3:21:25 | |
and yet could speak with this Derry accent and, er... | 3:21:25 | 3:21:29 | |
that was a mixture of doggedness and determination. | 3:21:29 | 3:21:34 | |
Denis Bradley was a young priest in Londonderry at the time | 3:21:34 | 3:21:38 | |
McGuinness's IRA was taking over. | 3:21:38 | 3:21:40 | |
By the time internment happened in 1971, | 3:21:45 | 3:21:48 | |
the argument against violence was being lost. | 3:21:48 | 3:21:52 | |
Young people who had never previously taken part in riot situations | 3:21:53 | 3:21:58 | |
because they were dubious about the morality of the whole thing | 3:21:58 | 3:22:00 | |
immediately took part in it. | 3:22:00 | 3:22:02 | |
All moderate argument has gone out the window. | 3:22:02 | 3:22:05 | |
Bloody Sunday killed any hope of moderation returning. | 3:22:05 | 3:22:08 | |
McGuinness was found to have been almost certainly carrying | 3:22:08 | 3:22:11 | |
a gun that day but played no direct role in the events that led | 3:22:11 | 3:22:15 | |
to the Parachute Regiment killing 13 people. | 3:22:15 | 3:22:18 | |
In the aftermath, in Republican eyes, | 3:22:18 | 3:22:20 | |
his IRA unit was cast as defenders of Catholics in the city. | 3:22:20 | 3:22:25 | |
In the Bogside and across other parts of this city, | 3:22:25 | 3:22:28 | |
Martin McGuinness was an established Republican hero and recognised IRA | 3:22:28 | 3:22:33 | |
leader while he was still younger than many university students. | 3:22:33 | 3:22:38 | |
A reputation like that couldn't be contained. | 3:22:38 | 3:22:41 | |
He was the incarnation of all that was evil. | 3:22:43 | 3:22:45 | |
He was the bogeyman of unionism. | 3:22:45 | 3:22:48 | |
He was there to be the leader of the organisation that was trying | 3:22:48 | 3:22:53 | |
to drive the Brits out of Ulster, and of course, | 3:22:53 | 3:22:55 | |
with being a British citizen living in Northern Ireland and as | 3:22:55 | 3:22:59 | |
this being British territory, that was a threat to our very | 3:22:59 | 3:23:02 | |
existence, and he was the personification of that threat. | 3:23:02 | 3:23:05 | |
But as far back as 1972 the Brits wanted to talk to | 3:23:07 | 3:23:11 | |
this 22-year-old bogeyman. | 3:23:11 | 3:23:14 | |
His rise really began after internment and Bloody Sunday, | 3:23:16 | 3:23:21 | |
and he became such a senior figure in Derry that he was recognised | 3:23:21 | 3:23:28 | |
as an important strategist as well as everything else. | 3:23:28 | 3:23:30 | |
He was brought over to London for talks with the British government | 3:23:30 | 3:23:34 | |
about a ceasefire in the summer of 1972, | 3:23:34 | 3:23:38 | |
along with Gerry Adams and the chief of staff, Sean Mac Stiofain, | 3:23:38 | 3:23:43 | |
and a couple of others. | 3:23:43 | 3:23:45 | |
Those talks took place in the summer of 1972, | 3:23:54 | 3:23:57 | |
during the worst period of the Troubles. | 3:23:57 | 3:23:59 | |
Young Martin McGuinness went from the wreckage of Derry to | 3:24:01 | 3:24:04 | |
a posh house in Chelsea to meet a member of the British government, | 3:24:04 | 3:24:08 | |
Secretary of State Willie Whitelaw. | 3:24:08 | 3:24:11 | |
Absolute crazy stuff. | 3:24:11 | 3:24:13 | |
Crazy stuff that you thought that you could pull | 3:24:13 | 3:24:16 | |
a youngster like Martin McGuinness and put him on | 3:24:16 | 3:24:18 | |
a plane and put him over into Cheyne Walk, into the grandees. | 3:24:18 | 3:24:22 | |
And the British hardly even knew where Derry was, | 3:24:22 | 3:24:25 | |
never mind, you know... "Oh, Martin McGuinness, well, who..." | 3:24:25 | 3:24:28 | |
You know, we'll bring these guys over and we'll have | 3:24:28 | 3:24:31 | |
a wee chat with them in a nice plush house along the banks of the Thames? | 3:24:31 | 3:24:37 | |
Crazy stuff. But it was part of the time. It was where we were at. | 3:24:37 | 3:24:41 | |
I think Martin McGuinness learned the value of more subtle | 3:24:41 | 3:24:44 | |
negotiation, because those 1972 talks | 3:24:44 | 3:24:46 | |
were simply outright brinkmanship demands, | 3:24:46 | 3:24:49 | |
naive demands from the IRA leadership, | 3:24:49 | 3:24:52 | |
simply wanting a united Ireland or bust, and wanting it very quickly. | 3:24:52 | 3:24:56 | |
The IRA had three uncompromising demands - | 3:24:58 | 3:25:00 | |
all-Ireland self-determination, | 3:25:00 | 3:25:03 | |
British withdrawal by 1975 and the release of prisoners. | 3:25:03 | 3:25:07 | |
The Provisional IRA will not stop the fight until the three | 3:25:08 | 3:25:13 | |
demands that we have put to Mr Whitelaw are met. | 3:25:13 | 3:25:16 | |
But the man who would one day become Sinn Fein's chief negotiator | 3:25:16 | 3:25:19 | |
had much to learn. | 3:25:19 | 3:25:21 | |
They were so politically naive that they had an idea that | 3:25:22 | 3:25:26 | |
a man was going to walk in some day with | 3:25:26 | 3:25:29 | |
a letter from the Prime Minister of Britain saying, "I'm going to | 3:25:29 | 3:25:32 | |
"withdraw my troops and my people and my power out of Ireland." | 3:25:32 | 3:25:37 | |
EXPLOSION | 3:25:37 | 3:25:39 | |
Not surprisingly, the British didn't meet the demands. | 3:25:44 | 3:25:48 | |
The talking didn't last long. | 3:25:48 | 3:25:51 | |
EXPLOSION | 3:25:51 | 3:25:54 | |
McGuinness went back to what he knew in the IRA. | 3:25:54 | 3:25:56 | |
Now a known senior IRA figure, he spent a lot of time on the run. | 3:25:56 | 3:26:01 | |
-NEWSREEL: -McGuinness, still disguised with dyed hair and | 3:26:03 | 3:26:06 | |
a recently grown moustache, | 3:26:06 | 3:26:08 | |
were driven off to the Mountjoy Prison to shouts of | 3:26:08 | 3:26:11 | |
"Up the Provos" from their supporters. | 3:26:11 | 3:26:14 | |
The running was interrupted in 1973 when he was arrested | 3:26:14 | 3:26:18 | |
in the Republic with ammunition and explosives and sent to jail. | 3:26:18 | 3:26:22 | |
There were 30 policemen in the little courtroom | 3:26:23 | 3:26:26 | |
during the brief hearing. | 3:26:26 | 3:26:28 | |
McGuinness refused to accept the jurisdiction of the court. | 3:26:28 | 3:26:32 | |
He said, "My loyalties lie with the 32-county state. | 3:26:32 | 3:26:36 | |
"That's a united Ireland state." | 3:26:36 | 3:26:39 | |
And he added, "This is a framed-up charge." | 3:26:39 | 3:26:42 | |
Martin McGuinness later claimed this was the period when he left the IRA. | 3:26:42 | 3:26:47 | |
Few people believed him. | 3:26:47 | 3:26:49 | |
I don't think he ever left the IRA. | 3:26:50 | 3:26:52 | |
The IRA still exists. | 3:26:52 | 3:26:54 | |
And he certainly didn't leave it in 1974. | 3:26:54 | 3:26:57 | |
After 1974, he really... It's arguable that his IRA career | 3:26:57 | 3:27:01 | |
was only getting off the ground. | 3:27:01 | 3:27:04 | |
He was a commander in the Provisional IRA, said so, | 3:27:05 | 3:27:08 | |
boasted about it. | 3:27:08 | 3:27:10 | |
The fact that he was the commander of the Provisionals, | 3:27:10 | 3:27:12 | |
he said number two in command, it was always our belief, | 3:27:12 | 3:27:15 | |
it was always our position that he was in the Army Council | 3:27:15 | 3:27:18 | |
and the leading member in the Army Council of Provos, | 3:27:18 | 3:27:21 | |
so death was his business, murder was his game. | 3:27:21 | 3:27:24 | |
The key event in the Republican movement | 3:27:24 | 3:27:27 | |
was the creation of Northern Command in 1976. | 3:27:27 | 3:27:31 | |
McGuinness became the first commander of Northern Command, | 3:27:31 | 3:27:35 | |
and that meant, essentially, | 3:27:35 | 3:27:36 | |
that McGuinness and Adams took over the military campaign. | 3:27:36 | 3:27:40 | |
So the northerners were running it. | 3:27:40 | 3:27:43 | |
Under this strengthened northern leadership, | 3:27:43 | 3:27:46 | |
the long war had begun. | 3:27:46 | 3:27:48 | |
And it was ruthless in its prosecution. | 3:27:49 | 3:27:52 | |
The new leadership set down a blueprint | 3:27:52 | 3:27:54 | |
that was followed for the next two decades - | 3:27:54 | 3:27:57 | |
a grinding campaign of isolated attacks, | 3:27:57 | 3:28:00 | |
punctuated by what Republicans called "spectaculars", | 3:28:00 | 3:28:04 | |
such as when the IRA took revenge on the Parachute Regiment | 3:28:04 | 3:28:08 | |
for Bloody Sunday and reached inside the Royal Family in a single day. | 3:28:08 | 3:28:13 | |
-NEWS REPORT: -At 11.30 this morning, | 3:28:15 | 3:28:17 | |
Lord Mountbatten's family had set off from the jetty. | 3:28:17 | 3:28:20 | |
16 minutes later, it happened. | 3:28:20 | 3:28:23 | |
We just heard a very loud bang | 3:28:23 | 3:28:26 | |
and we were informed that Lord Mountbatten's boat had exploded. | 3:28:26 | 3:28:31 | |
That was planned by the IRA shortly after Martin McGuinness took over | 3:28:31 | 3:28:36 | |
as chief of staff of the IRA in 1978. He had sanctioned it. | 3:28:36 | 3:28:40 | |
The IRA also struck at Warrenpoint, | 3:28:41 | 3:28:43 | |
killing 18 members of the Parachute Regiment. | 3:28:43 | 3:28:46 | |
Police who have been to the scene | 3:28:48 | 3:28:49 | |
say they have never seen such carnage | 3:28:49 | 3:28:52 | |
in all the Troubles in Northern Ireland. | 3:28:52 | 3:28:54 | |
This would have been a very complex plan, | 3:28:54 | 3:28:57 | |
for two operations to take place on the same day. | 3:28:57 | 3:29:01 | |
The key thing was the Parachute Regiment, | 3:29:01 | 3:29:04 | |
because of what they had done in Derry in 1972. | 3:29:04 | 3:29:08 | |
The graffiti went up immediately, | 3:29:08 | 3:29:10 | |
that night - "13 dead but not forgotten. | 3:29:10 | 3:29:13 | |
"We got 18 and Mountbatten." | 3:29:13 | 3:29:15 | |
The devastating double attack was a mark | 3:29:15 | 3:29:18 | |
of the IRA's new lethal capacity | 3:29:18 | 3:29:20 | |
under Martin McGuinness's leadership. | 3:29:20 | 3:29:22 | |
It made Martin McGuinness one of Northern Ireland's most wanted men. | 3:29:22 | 3:29:27 | |
One of those hunting him was a young Catholic RUC officer | 3:29:30 | 3:29:34 | |
named Peter Sheridan. | 3:29:34 | 3:29:35 | |
For some police officers he was a hate figure, | 3:29:37 | 3:29:39 | |
for some police officers he an object of fear, | 3:29:39 | 3:29:42 | |
and for many of us, he was treated with deep suspicion. | 3:29:42 | 3:29:46 | |
When I came to Derry first of all in '78, | 3:29:46 | 3:29:48 | |
he would have been the number one person | 3:29:48 | 3:29:51 | |
that people would have been on the lookout for in the police. | 3:29:51 | 3:29:54 | |
As a young sergeant in Londonderry, | 3:29:54 | 3:29:56 | |
Peter Sheridan was trying to introduce community policing. | 3:29:56 | 3:30:00 | |
Two or three years ago, people wouldn't have expected to see | 3:30:00 | 3:30:02 | |
police out walking on the street again. | 3:30:02 | 3:30:05 | |
It's a gradual improvement that we have to make. | 3:30:05 | 3:30:07 | |
We can't just decide overnight | 3:30:07 | 3:30:09 | |
that we're going to go out today and two policemen | 3:30:09 | 3:30:11 | |
are going to walk about again, like they did in the early '60s. | 3:30:11 | 3:30:14 | |
Meanwhile, the IRA was trying to kill him. | 3:30:14 | 3:30:17 | |
You must have lived under constant threat yourself? | 3:30:17 | 3:30:21 | |
Yes, I did. Almost every day in the city there was some incident. | 3:30:21 | 3:30:25 | |
For example, at Magee College, | 3:30:25 | 3:30:27 | |
I was the first on the scene of the shooting of a prison lecturer. | 3:30:27 | 3:30:31 | |
The IRA shot lecturer Leslie Jarvis because he taught in prison, | 3:30:31 | 3:30:36 | |
but they also left a booby-trap for police responding to the attack. | 3:30:36 | 3:30:40 | |
I arrived at this car, where he was shot dead. | 3:30:43 | 3:30:46 | |
I got into the car and felt his pulse, and he was dead. | 3:30:46 | 3:30:49 | |
I remembered seeing his briefcase in the back of the car. | 3:30:49 | 3:30:52 | |
So I cordoned off the area and called the detectives, | 3:30:52 | 3:30:55 | |
walked over to detectives to explain the set-up. | 3:30:55 | 3:30:58 | |
I literally walked away and the bomb exploded, | 3:30:58 | 3:31:01 | |
which was his briefcase had been replaced. | 3:31:01 | 3:31:03 | |
The two officers were killed, | 3:31:05 | 3:31:07 | |
and I was literally 20 feet from them. | 3:31:07 | 3:31:10 | |
A biography of Martin McGuinness later claimed | 3:31:10 | 3:31:12 | |
he watched the attack unfold. | 3:31:12 | 3:31:15 | |
They wanted to kill most police officers, | 3:31:15 | 3:31:17 | |
but if you were Catholic in the police, you were a bigger target. | 3:31:17 | 3:31:21 | |
If you were senior, you were a bigger target. | 3:31:21 | 3:31:23 | |
The former Assistant Chief Constable now heads | 3:31:23 | 3:31:26 | |
Northern Ireland's leading reconciliation charity, | 3:31:26 | 3:31:29 | |
and worked closely with Martin McGuinness, the politician, | 3:31:29 | 3:31:32 | |
and grew to like him... | 3:31:32 | 3:31:34 | |
..despite the fact Martin McGuinness had previously wanted him dead. | 3:31:37 | 3:31:41 | |
Given that the IRA tried to kill you, | 3:31:44 | 3:31:46 | |
and given that Martin McGuinness was such a senior figure in the IRA | 3:31:46 | 3:31:49 | |
at that time, when you join the dots, | 3:31:49 | 3:31:51 | |
it effectively means that Martin McGuinness tried to kill you. | 3:31:51 | 3:31:54 | |
Yeah. And I have had probably that not dissimilar conversation | 3:31:54 | 3:31:59 | |
with him and many others in the Republican movement. | 3:31:59 | 3:32:02 | |
But Martin McGuinness wasn't just an IRA leader. | 3:32:02 | 3:32:06 | |
He was also emerging as an elected politician. | 3:32:06 | 3:32:09 | |
CROWD CHANTS | 3:32:09 | 3:32:11 | |
With your successes in today's elections, | 3:32:15 | 3:32:18 | |
is this now not the time to give up the Armalite? | 3:32:18 | 3:32:20 | |
We have always said that we believe that we can only achieve | 3:32:20 | 3:32:23 | |
what we are attempting to establish in Ireland, | 3:32:23 | 3:32:25 | |
a democratic socialist republic, | 3:32:25 | 3:32:27 | |
through the use of political action and military force. | 3:32:27 | 3:32:30 | |
That is the Republican position. | 3:32:30 | 3:32:31 | |
We don't believe that winning elections | 3:32:31 | 3:32:34 | |
and winning any amount of votes will bring freedom in Ireland. | 3:32:34 | 3:32:36 | |
At the end of the day, | 3:32:36 | 3:32:38 | |
it will be the cutting edge of the IRA which will bring freedom. | 3:32:38 | 3:32:40 | |
Always with Martin McGuinness, | 3:32:40 | 3:32:42 | |
the military went hand in hand with the political. | 3:32:42 | 3:32:45 | |
When he was being carried down the Guildhall steps | 3:32:49 | 3:32:52 | |
the first time he was elected, if you look at the fuss, | 3:32:52 | 3:32:56 | |
the kind of shock-horror, | 3:32:56 | 3:32:58 | |
I think he came to realise that the political path | 3:32:58 | 3:33:00 | |
had as much to offer as the armed path. | 3:33:00 | 3:33:03 | |
They were determined to say to people, | 3:33:05 | 3:33:07 | |
"Look, our vote means people support the armed struggle." | 3:33:07 | 3:33:11 | |
But McGuinness at that stage thought, "If we don't keep going, | 3:33:11 | 3:33:14 | |
"then we're not going to get anywhere." | 3:33:14 | 3:33:17 | |
The armed struggle is what gives the Republican movement its weight, | 3:33:17 | 3:33:21 | |
or, as he said, it's cutting edge. | 3:33:21 | 3:33:23 | |
There was another key element to what the IRA called its war. | 3:33:23 | 3:33:27 | |
Propaganda. | 3:33:27 | 3:33:29 | |
Once again, Martin McGuinness was at the forefront. | 3:33:29 | 3:33:33 | |
I believe the people will vote for me | 3:33:34 | 3:33:37 | |
because I have been active, certainly, | 3:33:37 | 3:33:40 | |
on the Republican side | 3:33:40 | 3:33:42 | |
against the British. | 3:33:42 | 3:33:43 | |
I have been totally opposed to their presence | 3:33:43 | 3:33:45 | |
in my country. | 3:33:45 | 3:33:47 | |
And I certainly believe and support the aims of the IRA | 3:33:47 | 3:33:51 | |
in that Ireland can only be freed, that peace can only come, | 3:33:51 | 3:33:55 | |
and this is what is important. | 3:33:55 | 3:33:57 | |
At the end of the day, I am a man of peace. | 3:33:57 | 3:34:00 | |
At other times, he denied his involvement in the IRA. | 3:34:00 | 3:34:03 | |
Whoever said that I was a member of the IRA? | 3:34:03 | 3:34:07 | |
Are you saying that I'm a member of the IRA? | 3:34:07 | 3:34:09 | |
The definitive history of the IRA names you | 3:34:09 | 3:34:11 | |
as the OC of the Derry Brigade. | 3:34:11 | 3:34:13 | |
Well, I have never said that I was in the IRA. | 3:34:13 | 3:34:15 | |
Are you denying that you ran the IRA in Free Derry? | 3:34:15 | 3:34:19 | |
I am not a member of the IRA. | 3:34:19 | 3:34:20 | |
In 1985, a BBC documentary called Real Lives, | 3:34:25 | 3:34:29 | |
due to be screened across the UK, | 3:34:29 | 3:34:31 | |
examined this man of contradictions, | 3:34:31 | 3:34:34 | |
placing the Corporation right in the firing line. | 3:34:34 | 3:34:37 | |
While the IRA wanted to bring down the British Government, | 3:34:37 | 3:34:41 | |
this half hour of television almost brought down the BBC. | 3:34:41 | 3:34:45 | |
Margaret Thatcher's Government wanted the programme scrapped. | 3:34:45 | 3:34:49 | |
The BBC withdrew it, leading to accusations of both censorship | 3:34:49 | 3:34:52 | |
and propaganda. It was broadcast two months later. | 3:34:52 | 3:34:56 | |
We had the Real Lives documentary, which was revolutionary. | 3:34:56 | 3:35:00 | |
The past 15 years have seen many sacrifices. | 3:35:00 | 3:35:03 | |
In Republican graves throughout Ireland | 3:35:03 | 3:35:06 | |
lie the remains of Irishmen and women who saw that resistance | 3:35:06 | 3:35:10 | |
was the only method that Britain understood. | 3:35:10 | 3:35:13 | |
It actually showed someone who had been frequently called | 3:35:13 | 3:35:16 | |
a leading IRA man playing with his kids on the beach, | 3:35:16 | 3:35:19 | |
laughing and talking with his wife. | 3:35:19 | 3:35:22 | |
Very relaxed, very calm. | 3:35:22 | 3:35:24 | |
So, it actually showed him as a human being | 3:35:24 | 3:35:27 | |
and allowed him to discuss what his views and aspirations | 3:35:27 | 3:35:31 | |
and what his feelings were. | 3:35:31 | 3:35:32 | |
We believe the only way that Irish people can bring about | 3:35:32 | 3:35:37 | |
the freedom of their country | 3:35:37 | 3:35:40 | |
is through the use of armed struggle. | 3:35:40 | 3:35:43 | |
I wish it could be done in another way. | 3:35:43 | 3:35:46 | |
If someone could tell me a peaceful way to do it, | 3:35:46 | 3:35:50 | |
then I would gladly support that. But no-one has yet done that. | 3:35:50 | 3:35:53 | |
We saw him counterpoised with Gregory Campbell. | 3:35:53 | 3:35:57 | |
Hello. How are you? | 3:35:57 | 3:35:59 | |
Nobody had any conception of how controversial it would be, | 3:35:59 | 3:36:03 | |
that Margaret Thatcher would intervene. | 3:36:03 | 3:36:06 | |
and it would for a day, I think, | 3:36:06 | 3:36:08 | |
create a worldwide news strike by BBC journalists. | 3:36:08 | 3:36:13 | |
I don't think anybody would say I was responsible for that. | 3:36:13 | 3:36:17 | |
But I had a clear choice. | 3:36:18 | 3:36:20 | |
It was clear to me what the producers were trying to do, | 3:36:20 | 3:36:24 | |
and that was to present Martin McGuinness in a particular light. | 3:36:24 | 3:36:27 | |
So I said, "Well, if they do, I will present the truth about him." | 3:36:27 | 3:36:32 | |
And perhaps that's what I'm doing now as well. | 3:36:32 | 3:36:35 | |
In the Protestant community, there is a great concern | 3:36:37 | 3:36:42 | |
that somebody like Martin McGuinness | 3:36:42 | 3:36:45 | |
can become almost a cult figure | 3:36:45 | 3:36:49 | |
in the Republican community, | 3:36:49 | 3:36:51 | |
can be elected at election after election. | 3:36:51 | 3:36:55 | |
It was quite interesting because we saw a shot | 3:36:55 | 3:36:59 | |
of Gregory Campbell cleaning his gun. | 3:36:59 | 3:37:02 | |
So, it was a neat sort of reversal. | 3:37:02 | 3:37:04 | |
You were expecting to see Martin McGuinness maybe cleaning his, | 3:37:04 | 3:37:08 | |
but it wasn't to be. | 3:37:08 | 3:37:09 | |
What you saw with me was a factual representation | 3:37:12 | 3:37:15 | |
of the way it was in 1984. | 3:37:15 | 3:37:19 | |
But I didn't like the correlation of illegal arms | 3:37:21 | 3:37:28 | |
that were used to kill innocent people | 3:37:28 | 3:37:31 | |
with the personal protection weapon | 3:37:31 | 3:37:34 | |
that was being used to defend innocent people. | 3:37:34 | 3:37:36 | |
I remember the controversy over the parallels which | 3:37:36 | 3:37:40 | |
the Real Lives programme drew between Martin McGuinness | 3:37:40 | 3:37:44 | |
on the one hand and Gregory Campbell on the other. | 3:37:44 | 3:37:47 | |
People on both sides were a bit angry about that. | 3:37:47 | 3:37:50 | |
Gregory's people were angry about their man being compared to | 3:37:50 | 3:37:54 | |
and IRA activist, | 3:37:54 | 3:37:56 | |
and Republicans were angry at their leader | 3:37:56 | 3:37:59 | |
being compared to somebody who was perceived as a sectarian bigot. | 3:37:59 | 3:38:03 | |
Were there any similarities between you and Martin McGuinness? | 3:38:03 | 3:38:07 | |
Well, I suppose we were round about the same age, | 3:38:09 | 3:38:13 | |
and we breathed the same air. | 3:38:13 | 3:38:15 | |
But it wasn't all about PR and publicity. | 3:38:18 | 3:38:21 | |
Even in the later stages of the IRA campaign, | 3:38:21 | 3:38:24 | |
and even in Martin McGuinness's home city, | 3:38:24 | 3:38:26 | |
violence towards those considered to be informers and collaborators | 3:38:26 | 3:38:30 | |
was extreme. | 3:38:30 | 3:38:32 | |
The IRA decided to use civilians as human bombs. | 3:38:32 | 3:38:36 | |
The place and times that belonged to Martin McGuinness | 3:38:41 | 3:38:45 | |
also belonged to Kathleen Gillespie. | 3:38:45 | 3:38:47 | |
She grew up in Derry | 3:38:50 | 3:38:51 | |
and married her husband Patsy in the same church | 3:38:51 | 3:38:54 | |
where Martin McGuinness's funeral was held last week. | 3:38:54 | 3:38:57 | |
I don't know if it was love at first sight, | 3:39:01 | 3:39:03 | |
but I fancied him when I was 16. | 3:39:03 | 3:39:06 | |
We got engaged when I was 17 | 3:39:07 | 3:39:11 | |
and we got married when I was 20. | 3:39:11 | 3:39:14 | |
Like many in Derry in the early '70s, | 3:39:14 | 3:39:16 | |
Patsy Gillespie found it hard to get work. | 3:39:16 | 3:39:20 | |
He started cooking in an Army base, a risky job in a city | 3:39:20 | 3:39:23 | |
where the IRA was such a heavy presence. | 3:39:23 | 3:39:27 | |
It wasn't a sensible move. | 3:39:31 | 3:39:33 | |
But Patsy didn't want to be on the dole. | 3:39:33 | 3:39:35 | |
He needed a job, wanted to look after his family. | 3:39:37 | 3:39:41 | |
Patsy's job made him what the IRA called a legitimate target. | 3:39:41 | 3:39:45 | |
One night in October 1990, | 3:39:45 | 3:39:48 | |
masked gunmen took over the family home. | 3:39:48 | 3:39:51 | |
They took Patsy away at midnight, | 3:39:51 | 3:39:54 | |
they led him into the living room to say goodbye to us. | 3:39:54 | 3:39:57 | |
-NEWS REPORT: -The terrorists told Mrs Gillespie | 3:39:57 | 3:39:59 | |
that no-one would be harmed | 3:39:59 | 3:40:01 | |
and her husband would be back in half an hour. | 3:40:01 | 3:40:03 | |
He put his arms round us and said, "Don't worry, girl. | 3:40:03 | 3:40:05 | |
"Everything will be all right, I will be home soon." | 3:40:05 | 3:40:08 | |
And that was the last time I saw him. | 3:40:08 | 3:40:11 | |
Patsy Gillespie was one of three men the IRA forced | 3:40:11 | 3:40:14 | |
to drive car bombs that night. | 3:40:14 | 3:40:17 | |
In Newry and Omagh, the drivers managed to escape | 3:40:17 | 3:40:20 | |
before the bombs went off, but Patsy Gillespie had no chance | 3:40:20 | 3:40:24 | |
to get away from the massive bomb he drove. | 3:40:24 | 3:40:27 | |
The van contained, to my knowledge, 1,200lb of explosives, | 3:40:27 | 3:40:33 | |
and Patsy was chained to the van. | 3:40:33 | 3:40:36 | |
So, he must've known then, | 3:40:36 | 3:40:38 | |
"I'm chained. I'm not going to get out of here." | 3:40:38 | 3:40:42 | |
-NEWS REPORT: -A senior security source said last night's bombings | 3:40:42 | 3:40:45 | |
reveal an obscene new twist. | 3:40:45 | 3:40:48 | |
He said they're using human bombs. | 3:40:48 | 3:40:50 | |
He drove into the Army checkpoint at Coshquin | 3:40:50 | 3:40:56 | |
and immediately shouted a warning, | 3:40:56 | 3:40:59 | |
"I'm loaded, I'm loaded, get away! Get away! | 3:40:59 | 3:41:01 | |
"I'm loaded." | 3:41:01 | 3:41:03 | |
Patsy Gillespie and five soldiers were killed in the blast. | 3:41:03 | 3:41:07 | |
Kathleen heard the bomb go off from her home. | 3:41:07 | 3:41:10 | |
We sort of knew all day that Patsy was dead, | 3:41:10 | 3:41:14 | |
but the confirmation didn't come | 3:41:14 | 3:41:17 | |
because...there was nothing to identify him. | 3:41:17 | 3:41:21 | |
There was only... | 3:41:23 | 3:41:24 | |
The police were finding wee bits of body parts and bits of flesh, | 3:41:24 | 3:41:28 | |
and Patsy was identified by a piece of flesh | 3:41:28 | 3:41:34 | |
which was found attached to part of a grey zip | 3:41:34 | 3:41:39 | |
of the cardigan he was wearing when they took him away. | 3:41:39 | 3:41:42 | |
Did you know that at the time? | 3:41:45 | 3:41:47 | |
No. Patsy's remains were brought home from the hospital | 3:41:47 | 3:41:52 | |
on the Friday, | 3:41:52 | 3:41:55 | |
and I still thought that they were | 3:41:55 | 3:41:58 | |
taking me to identify the body. | 3:41:58 | 3:42:01 | |
Because I said to the detectives when we went to the mortuary | 3:42:01 | 3:42:05 | |
at Altnagelvin, | 3:42:05 | 3:42:07 | |
"Are we going in to identify the body now?" | 3:42:07 | 3:42:11 | |
And he said, "The coffin's closed, Kathleen." | 3:42:12 | 3:42:17 | |
That's when I thought, "Something's not right here." | 3:42:20 | 3:42:26 | |
When you look at that and compare it to the 21st century | 3:42:29 | 3:42:34 | |
and Isis, that is probably the closest that they came | 3:42:34 | 3:42:38 | |
to being the forerunner to Isis. | 3:42:38 | 3:42:40 | |
You recall the horror which went through the area, | 3:42:42 | 3:42:46 | |
including among people who were not at all unsympathetic | 3:42:46 | 3:42:50 | |
to the armed struggle. | 3:42:50 | 3:42:52 | |
I remember the day after, | 3:42:52 | 3:42:53 | |
seeing a senior member of the Provisional IRA, | 3:42:53 | 3:42:56 | |
in Rossville Street, | 3:42:56 | 3:42:58 | |
and crossing the street to say to him and I said, | 3:42:58 | 3:43:01 | |
"That was a really lousy action last night." | 3:43:01 | 3:43:05 | |
He replied, "Eamonn, that was a perfect military operation." | 3:43:05 | 3:43:09 | |
In 2013, at the Oxford Union, | 3:43:11 | 3:43:13 | |
Martin McGuinness was challenged about Patsy Gillespie's death | 3:43:13 | 3:43:17 | |
by Victor Barker whose 12-year-old son was killed in the Omagh bomb. | 3:43:17 | 3:43:21 | |
Patsy Gillespie's widow, | 3:43:24 | 3:43:26 | |
who's alive today, | 3:43:26 | 3:43:27 | |
knows exactly what happened | 3:43:27 | 3:43:29 | |
and who ordered the death of her husband. | 3:43:29 | 3:43:32 | |
Everybody in this room would have more respect for you, Martin, | 3:43:32 | 3:43:36 | |
if you accepted your position | 3:43:36 | 3:43:39 | |
and you started telling the truth. | 3:43:39 | 3:43:42 | |
APPLAUSE | 3:43:42 | 3:43:44 | |
I don't know who was involved in the bomb explosion | 3:43:47 | 3:43:49 | |
which took the life of Patsy Gillespie. | 3:43:49 | 3:43:52 | |
Some people might think I do, but I don't. | 3:43:52 | 3:43:54 | |
When you say you don't know, for example, in Patsy Gillespie's case, | 3:43:54 | 3:43:57 | |
-you could find out. -I'm in government. | 3:43:57 | 3:44:00 | |
The job of finding out is the responsibility of the police. | 3:44:00 | 3:44:05 | |
By the stage of the human bombs in 1990, | 3:44:05 | 3:44:09 | |
operations like that would have | 3:44:09 | 3:44:11 | |
needed the approval of the Northern Command leadership, | 3:44:11 | 3:44:14 | |
and he was OC of the Northern Command. | 3:44:14 | 3:44:16 | |
So he would have known all about it and given the go-ahead. | 3:44:16 | 3:44:19 | |
A good few years ago, | 3:44:19 | 3:44:22 | |
I had to try and come to terms | 3:44:22 | 3:44:26 | |
with the fact that all the truths will never be told. | 3:44:26 | 3:44:31 | |
There are so many secrets still, | 3:44:31 | 3:44:34 | |
and Martin McGuinness has taken | 3:44:34 | 3:44:36 | |
a lot of secrets to the grave with him, | 3:44:36 | 3:44:39 | |
which can never be revealed. | 3:44:39 | 3:44:41 | |
This is where Patsy Gillespie died. | 3:44:43 | 3:44:46 | |
Time and the peace process have removed | 3:44:48 | 3:44:50 | |
more of the Army checkpoint than the bomb did. | 3:44:50 | 3:44:53 | |
It's very strange, because I feel closer to Patsy at Coshquin | 3:44:55 | 3:45:00 | |
than I do actually at his grave. | 3:45:00 | 3:45:03 | |
To me, Coshquin is the last place where Patsy was complete. | 3:45:03 | 3:45:07 | |
It's like part of his presence is still around there somewhere. | 3:45:10 | 3:45:17 | |
I do send my condolences to Martin McGuinness's wife | 3:45:20 | 3:45:25 | |
but, at the same time, I'm very envious of her and her family | 3:45:25 | 3:45:30 | |
because they got to sit beside him while he died, and comfort him. | 3:45:30 | 3:45:37 | |
And it was a comfort for them. And I was robbed of that. | 3:45:37 | 3:45:40 | |
It's hard to reconcile Martin McGuinness | 3:45:45 | 3:45:48 | |
the IRA leader who sanctioned such horror | 3:45:48 | 3:45:51 | |
with Martin McGuinness the politician | 3:45:51 | 3:45:53 | |
who did so much in recent years to make this place work. | 3:45:53 | 3:45:57 | |
Within months of Patsy Gillespie's murder, | 3:45:57 | 3:46:00 | |
he was holding secret peace talks with the British Government, | 3:46:00 | 3:46:03 | |
which ultimately ended the IRA's campaign. | 3:46:03 | 3:46:06 | |
For some reason, he'd decided the violence had to stop. | 3:46:06 | 3:46:10 | |
And it's important to try and understand why. | 3:46:10 | 3:46:13 | |
Was this simply a new tactic | 3:46:13 | 3:46:15 | |
or had Martin McGuinness seen the error of his ways? | 3:46:15 | 3:46:19 | |
Martin McGuinness's life, a very public life, | 3:46:19 | 3:46:22 | |
is that of a journey. | 3:46:22 | 3:46:24 | |
If we read in the Scriptures | 3:46:24 | 3:46:27 | |
about Saul of Tarsus making a remarkable journey, | 3:46:27 | 3:46:31 | |
being the chief of sinners and becoming | 3:46:31 | 3:46:34 | |
God's and Christ's chief witness, | 3:46:34 | 3:46:36 | |
and Martin McGuinness, while it's not a theological journey, | 3:46:36 | 3:46:40 | |
it has been a life journey where he has been the chief sinner | 3:46:40 | 3:46:45 | |
and has become the person who has become one of the | 3:46:45 | 3:46:48 | |
chief peacemakers in Northern Ireland. | 3:46:48 | 3:46:50 | |
Religion may have played its part, but even in Belfast's | 3:46:53 | 3:46:56 | |
Clonard Monastery, where key talks were held, | 3:46:56 | 3:46:59 | |
the sales pitch for peace was grounded in practical politics. | 3:46:59 | 3:47:03 | |
Through working with Father Alec Reid | 3:47:06 | 3:47:08 | |
and the peace ministry | 3:47:08 | 3:47:10 | |
that ran from Clonard Monastery, | 3:47:10 | 3:47:13 | |
and I knew of the work that was | 3:47:13 | 3:47:16 | |
being done to try and persuade the IRA | 3:47:16 | 3:47:20 | |
towards the democratic process, | 3:47:20 | 3:47:22 | |
to use politics and to leave behind the gun, | 3:47:22 | 3:47:26 | |
I became aware of what a very important figure he was, | 3:47:26 | 3:47:29 | |
also of what a very, very important figure Gerry Adams was | 3:47:29 | 3:47:33 | |
in terms of bringing that paramilitary constituency with them, | 3:47:33 | 3:47:38 | |
persuading them to what Father Alec always used to call | 3:47:38 | 3:47:41 | |
the alternative solution, the alternative strategy. | 3:47:41 | 3:47:45 | |
Violence and the politics for Republicans were always | 3:47:47 | 3:47:51 | |
inextricably linked. | 3:47:51 | 3:47:52 | |
The balance was what changed. | 3:47:52 | 3:47:55 | |
Eventually it was seen that violence was counter-productive | 3:47:55 | 3:47:58 | |
for Republicans and that they could achieve more by politics. | 3:47:58 | 3:48:01 | |
Martin McGuinness brought plenty of fanaticism to the violent era | 3:48:01 | 3:48:05 | |
of the Provisional IRA, and he brought the same fanaticism | 3:48:05 | 3:48:09 | |
into the peace process. | 3:48:09 | 3:48:10 | |
And if peace was a tactical move by Republicans, | 3:48:13 | 3:48:16 | |
was that because the IRA had reached stalemate with the British | 3:48:16 | 3:48:20 | |
or even faced defeat? | 3:48:20 | 3:48:22 | |
Once Martin McGuinness decided that the IRA's armed struggle was | 3:48:32 | 3:48:36 | |
not yielding what he had hoped and thought it would achieve, | 3:48:36 | 3:48:38 | |
he was prepared to be flexible | 3:48:38 | 3:48:40 | |
in terms of operating on a different basis. | 3:48:40 | 3:48:42 | |
The fact that it took so long to get serious communication about | 3:48:42 | 3:48:45 | |
the sort of ending of the conflict was partly because it needed | 3:48:45 | 3:48:49 | |
to get to the point where the IRA thought, | 3:48:49 | 3:48:51 | |
"We do need to bring something to an end or at least to change | 3:48:51 | 3:48:53 | |
"our strategy in pursuing our Republican goals." | 3:48:53 | 3:48:56 | |
Did a penny drop? | 3:48:59 | 3:49:00 | |
Was there a shaft of light from heaven? | 3:49:00 | 3:49:03 | |
Was there a Damascus road moment in Martin McGuinness's life? | 3:49:03 | 3:49:06 | |
I tend not to think so. | 3:49:06 | 3:49:08 | |
I think it was a gradual process, | 3:49:08 | 3:49:10 | |
a realisation on his part and on other people's part, | 3:49:10 | 3:49:14 | |
and of course they would probably never concede or admit this, | 3:49:14 | 3:49:18 | |
that their war was unwinnable, | 3:49:18 | 3:49:20 | |
that the British were actually on top of them. | 3:49:20 | 3:49:22 | |
How do you then rationalise where Martin McGuinness got to? | 3:49:25 | 3:49:28 | |
People can change. There can be a change of heart in people. | 3:49:28 | 3:49:31 | |
And I actually think that they're entitled to have that change | 3:49:31 | 3:49:34 | |
and entitled to be encouraged in that change. | 3:49:34 | 3:49:37 | |
And I think most people would recognise that that's what | 3:49:37 | 3:49:40 | |
you saw in Martin McGuinness. | 3:49:40 | 3:49:43 | |
Change of heart, or simply change of head and tactics? | 3:49:43 | 3:49:47 | |
It's hard to overstate how big a stretch it was for | 3:49:47 | 3:49:50 | |
a Republican leader like Martin McGuinness to come here, | 3:49:50 | 3:49:54 | |
the seat of Unionism on the hill, and take office. | 3:49:54 | 3:49:58 | |
I nominate Martin McGuinness as Minister for Education. | 3:49:58 | 3:50:02 | |
HISSING | 3:50:02 | 3:50:04 | |
Shame. | 3:50:04 | 3:50:06 | |
Will Mr Martin McGuinness confirm that | 3:50:06 | 3:50:08 | |
-he is willing to take up office? -HISSING CONTINUES | 3:50:08 | 3:50:10 | |
Order! Order! | 3:50:10 | 3:50:13 | |
What's clear is that he took to it with born-again zeal. | 3:50:13 | 3:50:17 | |
Good to see you. How are you doing? Thank you very much. | 3:50:17 | 3:50:21 | |
The cameras were out to capture the new Education Minister's | 3:50:21 | 3:50:24 | |
first day at the department's headquarters in Rathgael. | 3:50:24 | 3:50:28 | |
-THEY CHANT: -McGuinness out. Went do we want it? -Now. | 3:50:28 | 3:50:32 | |
-What do we want? -McGuinness out. | 3:50:32 | 3:50:34 | |
-When do we want it? -Now. | 3:50:34 | 3:50:35 | |
And they also captured the angry protests at Queen's Students' Union. | 3:50:35 | 3:50:39 | |
That looks far better than I do. My curly hair, what's left of it. | 3:50:46 | 3:50:50 | |
Hello. | 3:50:50 | 3:50:52 | |
A younger generation appeared more welcoming. | 3:50:52 | 3:50:55 | |
# That's when your dreams will all come true. # | 3:50:55 | 3:50:58 | |
-Brilliant. -Brilliant. Absolutely first class. | 3:50:58 | 3:51:01 | |
Well done, everybody. | 3:51:01 | 3:51:04 | |
Having taken the huge step of entering Stormont, | 3:51:04 | 3:51:07 | |
Martin McGuinness seemed genuinely upset | 3:51:07 | 3:51:10 | |
when it appeared likely to fall over decommissioning. | 3:51:10 | 3:51:14 | |
It's been absolutely gut-wrenching for me, | 3:51:15 | 3:51:19 | |
as an Irish Republican, to come to this building, Stormont, | 3:51:19 | 3:51:24 | |
and be a minister in a Northern Executive. | 3:51:24 | 3:51:27 | |
But was he being seduced by the institutions? | 3:51:29 | 3:51:32 | |
It was surprising just how far he would travel to keep Stormont alive. | 3:51:37 | 3:51:42 | |
It certainly led him into some astonishing relationships. | 3:51:42 | 3:51:45 | |
It was a summer's evening | 3:51:47 | 3:51:49 | |
and I turned up on my motorbike and | 3:51:49 | 3:51:52 | |
I wear a balaclava on my motorbike, | 3:51:52 | 3:51:54 | |
and I took my helmet off and McGuinness was standing there | 3:51:54 | 3:51:57 | |
and I took the balaclava off and I said, | 3:51:57 | 3:51:59 | |
"I'm the only one wearing a balaclava here." | 3:51:59 | 3:52:02 | |
And that broke the ice. | 3:52:02 | 3:52:04 | |
Because I think they could've taken that one of two ways. | 3:52:04 | 3:52:07 | |
"Is he deliberately trying to rub us the wrong way | 3:52:07 | 3:52:09 | |
"or was that actually quite funny?" | 3:52:09 | 3:52:11 | |
But serious business needed to be done. | 3:52:11 | 3:52:14 | |
Painful choices for Sinn Fein and the IRA. | 3:52:14 | 3:52:18 | |
Partnership government with the DUP meant Republican support | 3:52:18 | 3:52:22 | |
for policing, decommissioning | 3:52:22 | 3:52:24 | |
and the winding up of the IRA. | 3:52:24 | 3:52:27 | |
Martin McGuinness, who did so much to build the IRA, | 3:52:27 | 3:52:31 | |
was now charged with taking it apart. | 3:52:31 | 3:52:34 | |
Martin was the guy who was going to have to sell it to the troops, | 3:52:34 | 3:52:38 | |
and it was the things that he said, | 3:52:38 | 3:52:40 | |
you knew he was the guy that was going into the caves | 3:52:40 | 3:52:43 | |
to sell the message. | 3:52:43 | 3:52:45 | |
Martin McGuinness brought Sinn Fein over the Rubicon that they've | 3:52:45 | 3:52:48 | |
never, ever been able to go back on. | 3:52:48 | 3:52:51 | |
And that was swearing support and giving legitimacy | 3:52:51 | 3:52:55 | |
to the Crown forces of the British state in Ireland. | 3:52:55 | 3:52:58 | |
And once a Republican does that in the cold light of day, there's | 3:52:58 | 3:53:01 | |
no going back for them. | 3:53:01 | 3:53:02 | |
And their weapons are no longer the weapons of murder, | 3:53:02 | 3:53:05 | |
their weapons have to be the weapons of politics. | 3:53:05 | 3:53:08 | |
The Republican romance with Stormont was now personified | 3:53:10 | 3:53:14 | |
in a most unlikely couple. | 3:53:14 | 3:53:16 | |
People that never spoke to one another before now can even chuckle. | 3:53:24 | 3:53:28 | |
We've been described as the Chuckle Brothers back home | 3:53:28 | 3:53:31 | |
by people who thought that would've demeaned us in the beginning. | 3:53:31 | 3:53:35 | |
It turned against them in the end and we're hoping we can | 3:53:35 | 3:53:38 | |
chuckle our way through 2008. | 3:53:38 | 3:53:40 | |
He knows that I can stand the pace | 3:53:40 | 3:53:43 | |
and he complains I work him too hard. | 3:53:43 | 3:53:46 | |
He and I have a very positive approach, and it's working. | 3:53:46 | 3:53:51 | |
I haven't hit him yet | 3:53:51 | 3:53:53 | |
and he hasn't hit me yet. | 3:53:53 | 3:53:55 | |
Not an inch and no surrender. | 3:53:55 | 3:53:57 | |
My father had charisma in bucket-loads, | 3:53:59 | 3:54:02 | |
and Martin McGuinness had the X factor. | 3:54:02 | 3:54:05 | |
They had that ability to look people directly in the eye, | 3:54:05 | 3:54:11 | |
talk to them man to man, | 3:54:11 | 3:54:13 | |
person to person, and empathise and sympathise and engage with them. | 3:54:13 | 3:54:19 | |
And all of a sudden here we were on a settee, a small settee, | 3:54:19 | 3:54:25 | |
that obviously had good springs. | 3:54:25 | 3:54:28 | |
We were in the midst of battles. | 3:54:28 | 3:54:30 | |
That's right. Campaigning. | 3:54:30 | 3:54:32 | |
We're only too glad he'd bring this to both of you... | 3:54:32 | 3:54:35 | |
And, you know, it was amazing. | 3:54:37 | 3:54:41 | |
But funny, you know, I remember that morning talking Paisley | 3:54:41 | 3:54:46 | |
and he believed | 3:54:46 | 3:54:50 | |
that this Martin McGuinness guy had transformed, | 3:54:50 | 3:54:55 | |
and Martin McGuinness believed that Ian Paisley had transformed. | 3:54:55 | 3:55:00 | |
I had developed a very good working relationship with Martin McGuinness. | 3:55:02 | 3:55:06 | |
He was a crucial figure in the negotiations | 3:55:06 | 3:55:10 | |
to get self-government in which he played a leading role | 3:55:10 | 3:55:16 | |
and which the old enemies were brought together | 3:55:16 | 3:55:19 | |
to get that agreed and get it working properly | 3:55:19 | 3:55:22 | |
and the unlikely alliance with Ian Paisley. | 3:55:22 | 3:55:26 | |
The Chuckle Brothers, was, I think, | 3:55:26 | 3:55:29 | |
indicative of a warm personality on both sides. | 3:55:29 | 3:55:33 | |
Of course the DUP-Sinn Fein marriage was far from perfect, | 3:55:35 | 3:55:39 | |
though it was surprisingly solid, | 3:55:39 | 3:55:42 | |
even when Ian Paisley was replaced by Peter Robinson. | 3:55:42 | 3:55:45 | |
Through thick and thin, | 3:55:45 | 3:55:47 | |
Martin McGuinness proved his fidelity. | 3:55:47 | 3:55:49 | |
And when a challenge came from former Republican comrades | 3:55:49 | 3:55:53 | |
he made it abundantly clear where his loyalties now lay. | 3:55:53 | 3:55:57 | |
The shooting happened just before 10 o'clock last night. | 3:56:01 | 3:56:04 | |
The soldiers from 38 Engineer Regiment | 3:56:04 | 3:56:06 | |
were hours from deployment to Afghanistan. | 3:56:06 | 3:56:08 | |
It's understood they'd ordered the pizzas | 3:56:08 | 3:56:11 | |
and were shot as they took delivery of them. | 3:56:11 | 3:56:13 | |
Two days after the Massereene Barracks shooting, | 3:56:13 | 3:56:16 | |
PSNI officer Stephen Carroll was shot dead in Craigavon. | 3:56:16 | 3:56:20 | |
This was the first killing of a police officer in Northern Ireland | 3:56:20 | 3:56:24 | |
since the Good Friday Agreement. | 3:56:24 | 3:56:27 | |
Martin McGuinness's condemnation proved a watershed. | 3:56:27 | 3:56:30 | |
These people, they are traitors to the island of Ireland. | 3:56:31 | 3:56:35 | |
They have betrayed the political desires, | 3:56:35 | 3:56:39 | |
hopes and aspirations of all the people who live in this island | 3:56:39 | 3:56:42 | |
and they don't deserve to be supported by anyone. | 3:56:42 | 3:56:46 | |
It would have been a difficult message for him to sell in | 3:56:46 | 3:56:50 | |
his own community, even though it was dissidents. | 3:56:50 | 3:56:53 | |
I know, around his own house, | 3:56:53 | 3:56:55 | |
there were some paint bombs thrown at his house, | 3:56:55 | 3:56:57 | |
so it didn't go unnoticed. | 3:56:57 | 3:56:59 | |
But not everybody had signed up to the extent that | 3:56:59 | 3:57:01 | |
Martin McGuinness had signed up to this. | 3:57:01 | 3:57:04 | |
The day that he did that, | 3:57:04 | 3:57:05 | |
he was signalling very, very strongly to Republicans | 3:57:05 | 3:57:09 | |
that he had crossed the Rubicon. | 3:57:09 | 3:57:11 | |
That there's no going back. | 3:57:11 | 3:57:13 | |
He knew, ideologically, the day that he took his oath as a minister, | 3:57:13 | 3:57:16 | |
an oath that included support for the police, that was it. | 3:57:16 | 3:57:20 | |
His language that day was absolutely incredible. | 3:57:20 | 3:57:25 | |
It had an effect all over the island of Ireland. | 3:57:25 | 3:57:28 | |
I think that resounded and was hugely brave. | 3:57:28 | 3:57:32 | |
When you say he's brave, do you mean politically brave | 3:57:32 | 3:57:35 | |
or are we talking about threats to his life? | 3:57:35 | 3:57:37 | |
Oh, threats to his life. | 3:57:37 | 3:57:39 | |
I mean, Martin, there was a threat to Martin's life for long periods. | 3:57:39 | 3:57:44 | |
I know that. | 3:57:44 | 3:57:46 | |
It seemed there were no lengths to which Martin McGuinness wouldn't go. | 3:57:51 | 3:57:55 | |
But it wasn't always his call alone. | 3:57:55 | 3:57:58 | |
With the historic state visit of the Queen to the Republic, | 3:57:59 | 3:58:02 | |
Sinn Fein was invited to Dublin Castle. | 3:58:02 | 3:58:06 | |
But meeting the Queen of England remained, at that time, | 3:58:06 | 3:58:09 | |
a step too far. | 3:58:09 | 3:58:10 | |
My hope had been that when she came to Dublin, to Dublin Castle, | 3:58:11 | 3:58:16 | |
that Sinn Fein would attend. | 3:58:16 | 3:58:18 | |
-That was my hope. -They boycotted that. | 3:58:18 | 3:58:21 | |
Was that a mistake, from their point of view? | 3:58:21 | 3:58:23 | |
Oh, absolutely it was a mistake | 3:58:23 | 3:58:25 | |
and they knew very quickly that it was a mistake. | 3:58:25 | 3:58:26 | |
SHE SPEAKS IN GAELIC | 3:58:26 | 3:58:28 | |
APPLAUSE | 3:58:33 | 3:58:34 | |
It was a mistake that Martin McGuinness rectified in Belfast. | 3:58:39 | 3:58:43 | |
If Martin made up his mind that he was going to do something, | 3:58:49 | 3:58:52 | |
he did it. | 3:58:52 | 3:58:54 | |
-Do you think he was key in that? -Totally. Totally. No doubt about it. | 3:58:54 | 3:58:58 | |
Totally. Lock, stock and barrel. | 3:58:58 | 3:59:00 | |
That was Martin McGuinness | 3:59:00 | 3:59:03 | |
making the decision that he was going to carry this. | 3:59:03 | 3:59:07 | |
-I'm still a Republican. -Martin, how was it to meet the Queen? -Very nice. | 3:59:07 | 3:59:12 | |
There came a sense of respect between the two people. | 3:59:12 | 3:59:15 | |
In some ways, I think Martin McGuinness | 3:59:15 | 3:59:17 | |
treated the Queen like the way he would have treated his mother. | 3:59:17 | 3:59:20 | |
They were the same age bracket. | 3:59:20 | 3:59:21 | |
There was almost that deference to somebody who was an older person | 3:59:21 | 3:59:24 | |
and it was incredibly brave of the Queen | 3:59:24 | 3:59:27 | |
to step forward to reach out her hand. | 3:59:27 | 3:59:30 | |
But it was equally courageous of Martin McGuinness | 3:59:30 | 3:59:33 | |
in his own constituency to take her hand. | 3:59:33 | 3:59:35 | |
In shaking the hand of Queen Elizabeth, I'm extending the hand of | 3:59:35 | 3:59:40 | |
peace and reconciliation to all of my Unionist brothers and sisters. | 3:59:40 | 3:59:45 | |
He showed a lot of courage in doing that, | 3:59:45 | 3:59:47 | |
because there would have been Republicans... | 3:59:47 | 3:59:50 | |
There were Republicans who sniped at him for meeting the Queen. | 3:59:50 | 3:59:54 | |
He showed leadership as opposed to followership. | 3:59:55 | 4:00:00 | |
It wasn't just one meeting with the Queen. | 4:00:00 | 4:00:03 | |
Deputy First Minister, Your Majesty. | 4:00:03 | 4:00:05 | |
-Ah, good evening. -Hello. Are you well? | 4:00:05 | 4:00:08 | |
-Thank you very much, I'm still alive! -Nice to see you again. | 4:00:08 | 4:00:12 | |
But the past is not easily forgotten. | 4:00:12 | 4:00:15 | |
Martin McGuinness never apologised for past actions of the IRA. | 4:00:15 | 4:00:20 | |
And that always had the potential to threaten the process. | 4:00:20 | 4:00:25 | |
When Arlene Foster took charge as First Minister, she told Spotlight | 4:00:25 | 4:00:30 | |
about the difficulties she experienced with Martin McGuinness | 4:00:30 | 4:00:33 | |
because of his graveside oration at the IRA funeral | 4:00:33 | 4:00:37 | |
of the man she believes tried to kill her father. | 4:00:37 | 4:00:40 | |
If you talk to Martin McGuinness now, he will say, | 4:00:44 | 4:00:47 | |
and I heard him say it just recently, | 4:00:47 | 4:00:49 | |
that Unionists aren't the enemy, | 4:00:49 | 4:00:51 | |
the enemy is poverty, the enemy is unemployment, | 4:00:51 | 4:00:54 | |
the enemy is this, that and the other. | 4:00:54 | 4:00:55 | |
That's fine but it doesn't take away from the fact | 4:00:55 | 4:00:58 | |
that he thought it appropriate to speak at Seamus McElwaine's funeral. | 4:00:58 | 4:01:02 | |
A man who had been responsible for murdering | 4:01:02 | 4:01:07 | |
many people in County Fermanagh. | 4:01:07 | 4:01:10 | |
In one of his final interviews, Martin McGuinness was asked | 4:01:12 | 4:01:16 | |
if he had regrets about endorsing the use of violence. | 4:01:16 | 4:01:19 | |
I don't regret any of that. | 4:01:22 | 4:01:25 | |
But I think that people can judge all of that, and the people | 4:01:25 | 4:01:29 | |
who wrote about these matters were never in the city, | 4:01:29 | 4:01:32 | |
they don't understand what was happening in the city at the time. | 4:01:32 | 4:01:36 | |
I can understand people now saying, | 4:01:36 | 4:01:39 | |
"Well, the Martin McGuinness of the early 1970s and '80s and '90s, | 4:01:39 | 4:01:43 | |
"you have to look at him in that context of that time, | 4:01:43 | 4:01:47 | |
"whatever false justification he might have been used | 4:01:47 | 4:01:51 | |
"for being involved in the IRA." | 4:01:51 | 4:01:53 | |
If you look at the latter Martin McGuinness, in latter days, | 4:01:53 | 4:01:58 | |
even in the final couple of months of his life, | 4:01:58 | 4:02:02 | |
he had resigned as Deputy First Minister, | 4:02:02 | 4:02:05 | |
the peace process was well embedded, over 20 years on, | 4:02:05 | 4:02:09 | |
he was obviously gravely ill, | 4:02:09 | 4:02:11 | |
everyone could see he was gravely ill and he knew it. | 4:02:11 | 4:02:15 | |
The Grim Reaper was almost at the door, and the Martin McGuinness | 4:02:15 | 4:02:19 | |
of the latter days, the resigned Martin McGuinness, | 4:02:19 | 4:02:23 | |
the peacemaker Martin McGuinness said, "I regret none of it." | 4:02:23 | 4:02:27 | |
That summed the man up for me. | 4:02:27 | 4:02:29 | |
But Martin McGuinness did stretch Republicans | 4:02:29 | 4:02:32 | |
and made some big gestures. | 4:02:32 | 4:02:34 | |
But his supporters didn't feel the DUP responded in kind. | 4:02:34 | 4:02:38 | |
Now battling serious illness, | 4:02:38 | 4:02:41 | |
scandals like the Renewable Heating Incentive raised serious tensions. | 4:02:41 | 4:02:47 | |
A DUP decision to scrap an Irish language scheme | 4:02:47 | 4:02:50 | |
added to a sense of crisis. | 4:02:50 | 4:02:53 | |
The frail and dying Martin McGuinness tried a strategy | 4:02:53 | 4:02:57 | |
that had worked before, but his power was slipping away. | 4:02:57 | 4:03:01 | |
I phoned Arlene Foster, I said to her, | 4:03:03 | 4:03:05 | |
"Arlene, what I'm asking for is your cooperation. | 4:03:05 | 4:03:09 | |
"Stand aside for four or five weeks." | 4:03:09 | 4:03:12 | |
I provided a way out for Arlene Foster, and she refused to take it. | 4:03:12 | 4:03:17 | |
Why did Martin McGuinness ultimately resign? | 4:03:17 | 4:03:19 | |
Ultimately, the reason McGuinness resigned was the Nationalist and | 4:03:21 | 4:03:25 | |
Republican base had had enough of this sense that the DUP were | 4:03:25 | 4:03:30 | |
essentially setting the agenda. | 4:03:30 | 4:03:33 | |
McGuinness was able to counter that to some degree, | 4:03:33 | 4:03:37 | |
but what happened over the unfolding RHI scandal | 4:03:37 | 4:03:39 | |
and the arrogant way that the DUP were seen | 4:03:39 | 4:03:42 | |
to be dismissing Sinn Fein concerns | 4:03:42 | 4:03:45 | |
I think really forced Martin McGuinness's hand | 4:03:45 | 4:03:48 | |
in a way that he was left with no other choice than to resign. | 4:03:48 | 4:03:52 | |
We in Sinn Fein will not tolerate | 4:03:55 | 4:03:57 | |
the arrogance of Arlene Foster and the DUP. | 4:03:57 | 4:04:00 | |
Sinn Fein wants equality and respect for everyone. | 4:04:02 | 4:04:08 | |
And that's what this process must be about. | 4:04:08 | 4:04:12 | |
So today I have told Arlene Foster | 4:04:12 | 4:04:15 | |
that I have tendered my resignation, effective from 5pm today. | 4:04:15 | 4:04:22 | |
I have no doubt that that was a devastating time for him. | 4:04:25 | 4:04:30 | |
Personally devastating, because everything that | 4:04:30 | 4:04:33 | |
he had worked for was not just about building up, | 4:04:33 | 4:04:36 | |
but sustaining the institutions. | 4:04:36 | 4:04:38 | |
Just weeks after he resigned, | 4:04:42 | 4:04:44 | |
Republicans were laying their hero to rest. | 4:04:44 | 4:04:47 | |
We applaud Martin McGuinness. He was a Republican of the Republic. | 4:04:54 | 4:05:01 | |
The dual leadership of Adams and McGuinness has been a constant | 4:05:10 | 4:05:14 | |
at the forefront of the Republican movement | 4:05:14 | 4:05:16 | |
since the two first met back in 1972, | 4:05:16 | 4:05:19 | |
when they went to negotiate with the British Government. | 4:05:19 | 4:05:22 | |
With Martin McGuinness now gone and Gerry Adams solely in charge, what | 4:05:22 | 4:05:26 | |
many are asking is have Republicans fallen out of love with Stormont? | 4:05:26 | 4:05:31 | |
Are we entering a kind of long cold war in Northern Ireland politics? | 4:05:31 | 4:05:36 | |
I think, for Sinn Fein, | 4:05:36 | 4:05:37 | |
they felt they were making very little progress | 4:05:37 | 4:05:39 | |
within the institutions, | 4:05:39 | 4:05:41 | |
so I think the era of Sinn Fein support | 4:05:41 | 4:05:43 | |
for the institutions of the Good Friday Agreement, | 4:05:43 | 4:05:45 | |
whilst it's not over, there's no doubt that Sinn Fein have cooled | 4:05:45 | 4:05:48 | |
on the idea of devolved power-sharing, | 4:05:48 | 4:05:51 | |
at least in the short term. | 4:05:51 | 4:05:52 | |
Why is Sinn Fein apparently reluctant | 4:05:52 | 4:05:56 | |
to go back into Stormont government? | 4:05:56 | 4:05:58 | |
They know they have just secured their highest ever vote | 4:05:58 | 4:06:02 | |
in a Northern Ireland election, at a time when, under the | 4:06:02 | 4:06:05 | |
leadership of Martin McGuinness, really as his final act as leader, | 4:06:05 | 4:06:09 | |
he pulled the plug on the institutions. | 4:06:09 | 4:06:12 | |
And by doing so, he tapped into a sentiment that had existed | 4:06:12 | 4:06:17 | |
within Nationalism that the institutions were not working | 4:06:17 | 4:06:21 | |
in an even manner to deliver for both Nationalists and Unionism, | 4:06:21 | 4:06:26 | |
that the pendulum had swung too far in favour of Unionists. | 4:06:26 | 4:06:29 | |
Having worked so hard to make Stormont function, | 4:06:29 | 4:06:33 | |
some Republican sources say Martin McGuinness | 4:06:33 | 4:06:35 | |
would have wanted it to return. | 4:06:35 | 4:06:37 | |
But Brexit, due to be formally triggered by Theresa May | 4:06:37 | 4:06:41 | |
tomorrow, has changed the circumstances in a way | 4:06:41 | 4:06:44 | |
that Gerry Adams seems to relish. | 4:06:44 | 4:06:47 | |
In a way, then, Brexit is a gift for you, right? | 4:06:47 | 4:06:51 | |
You campaigned against it, but now that it's happening, | 4:06:51 | 4:06:54 | |
you're using it to make the case for a united Ireland. | 4:06:54 | 4:06:57 | |
Yeah, well, you always have to never | 4:06:57 | 4:07:00 | |
waste a crisis, never waste a difficulty. | 4:07:00 | 4:07:03 | |
Gerry Adams has said never waste a good crisis. | 4:07:03 | 4:07:07 | |
Is that what we're now seeing playing out? | 4:07:07 | 4:07:09 | |
That's right. | 4:07:09 | 4:07:11 | |
There's absolutely no doubt about that. | 4:07:11 | 4:07:13 | |
Adams is going to make as much use as he can of this crisis. | 4:07:13 | 4:07:16 | |
It is a crisis. | 4:07:16 | 4:07:18 | |
The difference is, 20 years ago, it would have been a security crisis. | 4:07:18 | 4:07:22 | |
Now it's a political crisis. | 4:07:22 | 4:07:24 | |
It is a perfect storm for Republicans. | 4:07:24 | 4:07:27 | |
They have political advantages now | 4:07:27 | 4:07:29 | |
that they've not seen in a long, long time. | 4:07:29 | 4:07:31 | |
CHEERING | 4:07:31 | 4:07:34 | |
They used them to dramatic effect on 2nd March at the election. | 4:07:34 | 4:07:38 | |
They came very close to overtaking the DUP | 4:07:38 | 4:07:41 | |
in terms of seats and the popular vote. | 4:07:41 | 4:07:44 | |
This is the onward march of Sinn Fein. | 4:07:44 | 4:07:46 | |
I'm not sure it's a march that can be stopped. | 4:07:46 | 4:07:49 | |
Rather than calming Unionist nerves, | 4:07:49 | 4:07:51 | |
Sinn Fein is calling for a border poll. | 4:07:51 | 4:07:55 | |
Brexit, as we have stated on many occasion, will be a | 4:07:55 | 4:07:58 | |
disaster for the economy and | 4:07:58 | 4:07:59 | |
it'll be a disaster for the people of Ireland. | 4:07:59 | 4:08:02 | |
For us in Sinn Fein, that increases the urgency for | 4:08:02 | 4:08:05 | |
the need for a referendum on Irish unity, | 4:08:05 | 4:08:08 | |
and that needs to happen as soon as possible. | 4:08:08 | 4:08:10 | |
A united Ireland has moved up the political agenda. | 4:08:10 | 4:08:14 | |
CHEERING | 4:08:14 | 4:08:16 | |
Sinn Fein could easily become the largest party | 4:08:18 | 4:08:21 | |
within Stormont. | 4:08:21 | 4:08:23 | |
Sinn Fein will almost certainly enter coalition government | 4:08:23 | 4:08:26 | |
within the South. | 4:08:26 | 4:08:28 | |
It's one step further to actually achieve a majority | 4:08:28 | 4:08:31 | |
for a united Ireland. | 4:08:31 | 4:08:33 | |
But it's less inconceivable, the prospect of a | 4:08:33 | 4:08:35 | |
united Ireland, than it was even two years ago. | 4:08:35 | 4:08:38 | |
Now it appears that it's become much more part of the mainstream | 4:08:38 | 4:08:41 | |
discourse in the South as well as the North again. | 4:08:41 | 4:08:44 | |
There is no prospect that a border poll could | 4:08:44 | 4:08:46 | |
be won and deliver a united Ireland in the short term. | 4:08:46 | 4:08:49 | |
This is more a period for building towards | 4:08:49 | 4:08:52 | |
Irish unity. | 4:08:52 | 4:08:54 | |
But is this change in tactics driven by events, or the | 4:08:56 | 4:09:00 | |
absence of Martin McGuinness? | 4:09:00 | 4:09:02 | |
I genuinely believe that Stormont would have collapsed if he had been | 4:09:03 | 4:09:07 | |
part of the Sinn Fein process up to the end. | 4:09:07 | 4:09:11 | |
I know they say he was, but I | 4:09:11 | 4:09:13 | |
think his influence was lacking at that time. | 4:09:13 | 4:09:16 | |
And I think that the Executive | 4:09:16 | 4:09:18 | |
wouldn't have collapsed to the same extent that it did. | 4:09:18 | 4:09:22 | |
I just think that Brexit is going to dominate politics, and therefore I | 4:09:23 | 4:09:29 | |
think that we need a good few statesmen around the place. | 4:09:29 | 4:09:33 | |
It would have been nice to have McGuinness around to | 4:09:33 | 4:09:36 | |
do some of that type of stuff. | 4:09:36 | 4:09:38 | |
I think there's a challenge here for Republicans. | 4:09:38 | 4:09:41 | |
Do they want his legacy to live on? | 4:09:41 | 4:09:42 | |
Or do they want to diminish it? | 4:09:42 | 4:09:44 | |
And the fact that they don't have a big beast of | 4:09:44 | 4:09:48 | |
his calibre, and they don't have someone with his interpersonal | 4:09:48 | 4:09:52 | |
skills in Sinn Fein at the present time means that there is huge danger | 4:09:52 | 4:09:56 | |
of that relationship not working properly. | 4:09:56 | 4:09:59 | |
And that relationship has got to be synchronised. | 4:09:59 | 4:10:02 | |
But others are less convinced that Gerry Adams is doing | 4:10:02 | 4:10:05 | |
anything different to what Martin McGuinness himself | 4:10:05 | 4:10:08 | |
would have supported. | 4:10:08 | 4:10:10 | |
Well, there is a view that he was one of the | 4:10:10 | 4:10:13 | |
primary advocates of keeping the institutions running. | 4:10:13 | 4:10:16 | |
I suppose it's one of the ultimate ironies, then, | 4:10:16 | 4:10:19 | |
that he was the man that brought them down by his resignation. | 4:10:19 | 4:10:23 | |
I think one of the most significant aspects of | 4:10:24 | 4:10:27 | |
Martin McGuinness's time as a leading Republican was that he | 4:10:27 | 4:10:31 | |
forged a remarkable dual leadership alongside Gerry Adams, and that | 4:10:31 | 4:10:37 | |
brought the Republicanism from the IRA campaign | 4:10:37 | 4:10:41 | |
to the peace process, and through the peace process, | 4:10:41 | 4:10:45 | |
political talks, into the devolved era. | 4:10:45 | 4:10:48 | |
It was striking that at no period of their tenure as dual leaders | 4:10:48 | 4:10:53 | |
could you have put a cigarette paper between them. | 4:10:53 | 4:10:56 | |
And that was true to outsiders but also to insiders. | 4:10:56 | 4:10:59 | |
They were very, very careful to never allow any | 4:10:59 | 4:11:03 | |
sense that one was disagreeing with the other. | 4:11:03 | 4:11:07 | |
There were definitely inseparable. | 4:11:08 | 4:11:10 | |
And it wasn't good guy, bad guy. | 4:11:10 | 4:11:13 | |
I mean, they were very much on the one page. | 4:11:13 | 4:11:17 | |
That key partnership is no more. | 4:11:17 | 4:11:19 | |
It is now Adams alone, raising questions | 4:11:19 | 4:11:23 | |
and uncertainty for Sinn Fein and the future. | 4:11:23 | 4:11:27 | |
After nearly a decade of sustained devolved government, | 4:11:27 | 4:11:32 | |
in which Martin McGuinness played a key role, | 4:11:32 | 4:11:35 | |
the future of our political institutions remains uncertain. | 4:11:35 | 4:11:39 | |
Talks have failed, Brexit is coming, | 4:11:41 | 4:11:45 | |
and Martin McGuinness has left the stage. | 4:11:45 | 4:11:49 | |
Martin McGuinness's journey was indeed remarkable, from IRA hard man | 4:11:49 | 4:11:55 | |
to soft peacemaker, shaking hands with the Queen and building a warm | 4:11:55 | 4:12:03 | |
and very important relationship with the DUP leader, Ian Paisley. | 4:12:03 | 4:12:09 | |
The problem with Northern Ireland politics today is there are | 4:12:09 | 4:12:14 | |
insufficient leaders of the stature | 4:12:14 | 4:12:17 | |
of Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness | 4:12:17 | 4:12:20 | |
who have the capacity to lead and sometimes tell their followers | 4:12:20 | 4:12:24 | |
things they don't want to hear, and have the courage to do that. | 4:12:24 | 4:12:28 | |
It seems to me that we all have to make our minds up now, | 4:12:28 | 4:12:31 | |
that political failure is not an option, | 4:12:31 | 4:12:34 | |
that whatever we need to do, and part of that will involve | 4:12:34 | 4:12:38 | |
getting out of the sectarian bunkers and focusing on the future | 4:12:38 | 4:12:42 | |
and all the issues that are lying ahead of us - | 4:12:42 | 4:12:45 | |
the economics of Northern Ireland. | 4:12:45 | 4:12:47 | |
Given where we are now, with Martin McGuinness having left | 4:12:47 | 4:12:50 | |
the political stage, with institutions that have | 4:12:50 | 4:12:53 | |
fallen down, with big movements elsewhere, with Brexit and the | 4:12:53 | 4:12:59 | |
implications for that, are we entering a more dangerous phase? | 4:12:59 | 4:13:04 | |
From a distance, it's a worry. | 4:13:04 | 4:13:07 | |
All I can do is pray that they have the guts, | 4:13:07 | 4:13:13 | |
have the conviction, have the ability and are able to do it. | 4:13:13 | 4:13:19 | |
But as we talk, it's a question mark. | 4:13:19 | 4:13:23 | |
So how will Martin McGuinness be remembered, | 4:13:26 | 4:13:30 | |
given the question mark hanging over Stormont? | 4:13:30 | 4:13:34 | |
I think when you're assessing Martin McGuinness's legacy, there are two | 4:13:34 | 4:13:38 | |
aspects to it that shout out, both which have to be remembered. | 4:13:38 | 4:13:41 | |
One is the crafting of a peace process which has the | 4:13:41 | 4:13:44 | |
opportunity to make Northern Ireland, Ireland, | 4:13:44 | 4:13:46 | |
British-Irish politics, transformed in a peaceful way | 4:13:46 | 4:13:50 | |
which would not have been possible had people like McGuinness | 4:13:50 | 4:13:52 | |
not decided to move the movement in that direction. | 4:13:52 | 4:13:55 | |
Having said that, the irony of it is, of course, | 4:13:55 | 4:13:58 | |
that we wouldn't have needed a peace process in Northern Ireland had it | 4:13:58 | 4:14:01 | |
not been that in an earlier stage of his career, | 4:14:01 | 4:14:04 | |
people like Martin McGuiness decided that lethal violence, | 4:14:04 | 4:14:07 | |
IRA activity was a necessary and legitimate thing. | 4:14:07 | 4:14:09 | |
And I think both parts of the legacy are important. | 4:14:09 | 4:14:12 | |
Gunman or statesman, Provo or peacemaker, | 4:14:13 | 4:14:18 | |
his past and our future now inextricably linked. | 4:14:18 | 4:14:23 |