12/02/2017 Sunday Politics East Midlands


12/02/2017

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 12/02/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Commons Speaker John Bercow is accused of compromising his

:00:41.:00:45.

impartiality by revealing he voted Remain in last year's EU referendum.

:00:46.:00:47.

The EU Withdrawal Bill clears its first Parliamentary hurdle.

:00:48.:00:56.

But will the House of Lords be quite so accommodating?

:00:57.:00:59.

Labour's Leader in the Lords joins us live.

:01:00.:01:06.

And we report from Stoke-on-Trent ahead of a crucial by-election

:01:07.:01:10.

later this month, where Ukip is looking to give

:01:11.:01:13.

And in the East Midlands, the Brexit hotspots -

:01:14.:01:15.

we'll be looking at a detailed report into how our region voted.

:01:16.:01:18.

And women forced to wait years for their pension prepare

:01:19.:01:20.

And with me a political panel who frequently like to compromise

:01:21.:01:36.

Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Janan Ganesh.

:01:37.:01:41.

I'll be trying to keep them in order during the course of the programme.

:01:42.:01:48.

So, Commons Speaker John Bercow has insisted his ability

:01:49.:01:50.

to act impartially is not damaged by reports that he voted to Remain

:01:51.:01:56.

The Sunday Telegraph reveals that Speaker Bercow revealed his views

:01:57.:02:03.

in front of an audience of students at Reading University

:02:04.:02:06.

This may not be popular with some people in this audience -

:02:07.:02:23.

I thought it was better to stay in the European Union than not,

:02:24.:02:27.

partly for economic reason, being part of a big trade bloc,

:02:28.:02:31.

and partly because I think we're in a world of power blocs,

:02:32.:02:35.

and I think for all the weaknesses and deficiencies

:02:36.:02:37.

of the European Union, it is better to be part of that big

:02:38.:02:40.

Speaker Bercow speaking at Reading University earlier this month. Does

:02:41.:02:51.

he not care is this I get that impression, he knows perfectly well,

:02:52.:02:56.

it states he has to be particularly -- Parliamentary neural. Whether

:02:57.:03:00.

there are going to be enough votes to force him out, the question, the

:03:01.:03:05.

last speaker wept out with the 20 vote against him. You yes to have

:03:06.:03:10.

the command of the support across the House. There is a Deputy

:03:11.:03:16.

Speaker, waiting, who would be superb. I think even the people who

:03:17.:03:25.

pretend to support Macis have had enough -- Speaker Bercow have had

:03:26.:03:31.

enough of his ways. The reason I ask whether he care, he didn't just tell

:03:32.:03:34.

the students that he voted to Remain, he then gave them a running

:03:35.:03:39.

commentary on all the issues that will be part of the Brexit

:03:40.:03:46.

negotiations, workers' rights, immigration, trade policy, everyone

:03:47.:03:48.

maternity leave got a hat tip from him. He would be a very well

:03:49.:03:54.

prepared Brexit minister if attendance needs a colleague --

:03:55.:03:59.

David Davis needs a colleague. I don't think this story makes his

:04:00.:04:03.

position untenable, what does is the wired pattern of behaviour of

:04:04.:04:07.

excessive candour on his political views, going back years, this is a

:04:08.:04:15.

guy who when the Queen visited Parliament described her as theical

:04:16.:04:21.

lied scope Queen. He had a running argument with David Cameron. We know

:04:22.:04:25.

his views on Brexit, we know his views on Donald Trump. . He has

:04:26.:04:36.

given interviews, none of the views are illegitimate but the candour

:04:37.:04:40.

which they are expressed with is scrupulous. Given Lyndsay Hoyle is a

:04:41.:04:44.

class accuse. He is the Deputy Speaker. And a fairly ready

:04:45.:04:49.

replacement, whether there is more of a movement to say, maybe not

:04:50.:04:54.

force Bercow out but acknowledge he has had a few years in the job and

:04:55.:04:58.

the question of successor ship comes into play. Has he concluded he is

:04:59.:05:04.

untouchable? What I can definitely say, is that he is determined to

:05:05.:05:09.

fight this one out, and not go of his own volition, so if he goes he

:05:10.:05:12.

will have to be forced out. He wants to stay. Which will be tough. It

:05:13.:05:19.

will be tough. Likely as things stand. I would say this, I speak to

:05:20.:05:23.

someone who likes the way he has brought the House of Commons to

:05:24.:05:27.

life, held ministers to account, forced them into explain thing,

:05:28.:05:30.

whenever there is a topical issue you know it will be in the House of

:05:31.:05:34.

Commons. He has changed that. He has. Time has been courageous, Ied a

:05:35.:05:41.

mire the way he has been a speaker. I would say this, during the

:05:42.:05:48.

referendum campaign, he asked me Nick Clegg, and Peter Hitchens to

:05:49.:05:51.

debate Brexit if his constituency. It was a packed out meeting. He

:05:52.:05:56.

chaired it. I said don't you want to join in? He didn't. He showed no

:05:57.:06:01.

desire to join in, he was impartial. He goes out to universities and kind

:06:02.:06:08.

of demyth GCSEs Parliament by speaking to them in a way, he

:06:09.:06:15.

doesn't gets credit for it and stays on after and drinks with them.

:06:16.:06:22.

Sometimes he, you know, it is clearly a mistake to have gone into

:06:23.:06:26.

his views retrospectively on that referendum campaign, I don't think

:06:27.:06:29.

that, did he try and stop Article 50 from being triggered in the House of

:06:30.:06:33.

Commons? That would be a scandal. Even that would be beyond him.

:06:34.:06:38.

Briefly, yes or no, could you imagine Betty Boothroyd behaving

:06:39.:06:43.

like that? Not at all. None of the recent speakers I could imagine

:06:44.:06:48.

doing that. It is good he is different.

:06:49.:06:51.

The bill that will allow the government to trigger Article 50

:06:52.:06:55.

and begin Brexit negotiations was voted through

:06:56.:06:57.

Many MPs were in a difficult position - unsure whether to vote

:06:58.:07:01.

with their conscience, their constituency,

:07:02.:07:02.

Europe, once such a divisive issue for the Conservatives,

:07:03.:07:06.

is now causing major divisions inside the Labour Party.

:07:07.:07:08.

So, let's have a look what happened in a bit more detail:

:07:09.:07:13.

Thanks to academic research carried out since the referendum,

:07:14.:07:15.

we now have estimates of how each individual constituency voted.

:07:16.:07:18.

It's thought that 410 constituencies voted Leave.

:07:19.:07:23.

On Wednesday night, the EU Notification of Withdrawal Bill

:07:24.:07:31.

was voted through by the House of Commons.

:07:32.:07:33.

The bill left the Labour Party divided.

:07:34.:07:42.

Jeremy Corbyn told his MPs to respect the result

:07:43.:07:44.

of the referendum and vote for the government's bill -

:07:45.:07:47.

But 52 Labour MPs defied Mr Corbyn's thee-line whip

:07:48.:07:50.

That's about a fifth of the Parliamentary Labour Party.

:07:51.:08:06.

Of those 52 Labour MPs who voted against the bill,

:08:07.:08:08.

the majority, 45 of them, represent seats that voted Remain.

:08:09.:08:11.

However, seven Labour MPs voted against the Article 50 Bill,

:08:12.:08:13.

even though their constituents voted Leave in the referendum.

:08:14.:08:15.

The Conservative Party were much more united.

:08:16.:08:17.

The vast majority of Tory MPs, 320 of them, voted for the bill.

:08:18.:08:20.

Just one Conservative MP, Ken Clarke, voted against it.

:08:21.:08:22.

His constituency, Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire, voted Remain.

:08:23.:08:24.

The bill will now go to the House of Lords -

:08:25.:08:27.

peers will start debating it on Monday the 20th of February.

:08:28.:08:40.

Joining me now is Matthew Goodwin, politics professor at

:08:41.:08:43.

He's got a book out next month called

:08:44.:08:46.

Brexit: Why Britain Voted To Leave The European Union.

:08:47.:08:47.

Welcome to the programme. Has Brexit, how you voted in the

:08:48.:08:56.

referendum and your continuing attitudes toward it, is that now

:08:57.:09:00.

becoming the new dividing line in British politics? I think it

:09:01.:09:05.

certainly is contributing to a new dividing line, in western politics

:09:06.:09:09.

more generally, we know over the last ten years, that the old left

:09:10.:09:13.

and right division has been making way for a new division, between

:09:14.:09:17.

essentially social liberals and Conservative, and Brexit was a, an

:09:18.:09:20.

incident a moment that really reflected that new dividing line, so

:09:21.:09:25.

it wasn't just the case that Brexit has cut across Labour's base, it is

:09:26.:09:31.

that dividing line, that deeper division is cutting across social

:09:32.:09:36.

democracies more generally. Is there a possibility, no higher than that,

:09:37.:09:40.

that it will reShane our party politics? I think it is too early to

:09:41.:09:45.

know whether this is a fundamental long-term realignment. If we look at

:09:46.:09:49.

what is happening in local by-election, what is happening at

:09:50.:09:54.

by-elections, pictures a bit mixed but if you look at how some of the

:09:55.:10:01.

Labour vote is responding, I think that potentially reflects the

:10:02.:10:05.

possibility of a terminal decline for the Labour Party, it is going to

:10:06.:10:09.

be incredibly difficult for Labour to win these voters back, these are

:10:10.:10:13.

traditional working class, socially Conservative voters who are leaving

:10:14.:10:18.

the party, don't forget, since the 1997 general election. It is not

:10:19.:10:22.

just because of the referendum. If that was the case, Labour would

:10:23.:10:27.

become more a party of the Metropolitan areas, and less of a

:10:28.:10:30.

party outside of these area, is that what you are saying? What we are S

:10:31.:10:35.

seeing across the west can social democracy that retrenchment into the

:10:36.:10:41.

cosmopolitan, Metropolitan city area, university towns, you can

:10:42.:10:45.

seeing in many European states populist right parties filling the

:10:46.:10:48.

traditional socialist area, why are they doing that? Because they are

:10:49.:10:54.

offering two message, economic and cultural protectionism. Social

:10:55.:10:58.

Democrats are clinging to that economic protectionism but not

:10:59.:11:02.

saying much about migration and multiculturalism and that sort of

:11:03.:11:06.

stuff. Are there deeper forces at work than Jeremy Corbyn? He often

:11:07.:11:09.

gets the blame for what is happening to the Labour Party now, but if you

:11:10.:11:13.

look the way the Greek socialist party has been wiped out. The German

:11:14.:11:20.

Social Democrats are in trouble. The Italian socialist party has lost a

:11:21.:11:24.

referendum. The French socialist are coming close to being wiped out on

:11:25.:11:29.

April 23rd, Labour's problems, are part of a much wider problem of

:11:30.:11:33.

social democracy S Jeremy Corbyn is a surface problem, what I mean by

:11:34.:11:38.

that is you could replace him tosh with another leader, they would

:11:39.:11:41.

still have this fundamental tension within the electorate. They are

:11:42.:11:48.

trying to appeal to two differenter reconcilable groups of voters who

:11:49.:11:51.

think differently about the key issues of the day. It is very

:11:52.:11:56.

difficult for any centre left party now to assemble the kinds of

:11:57.:12:02.

coalitionses we saw in the '90s with Clinton and Blair and Schroeder.

:12:03.:12:05.

Those days are gone. Does that explain why it is now Labour, rather

:12:06.:12:11.

than the Conservatives, historically the party divided over the European

:12:12.:12:15.

Union, does all of that help to explain why its Labour that now

:12:16.:12:21.

seems, disunited over the EU? I think so, I think also that the

:12:22.:12:27.

issue of Brexit, and the EU, is so immatly wrapped up with that issue

:12:28.:12:31.

of immigration, if you look at who has been abandoned Labour since 2015

:12:32.:12:36.

or the late 90s, the one thing those voters share is a rejection of the

:12:37.:12:41.

so-called liberal consensus on EU membership and mass immigration. It

:12:42.:12:45.

is difficult for any Labour lead eer co-bin or Clive Lewis on Dan Jarvis,

:12:46.:12:50.

to bring those voters back unless they are going to move on that

:12:51.:12:54.

cultural terrain. If they are not, they may not go to Ukip, they might

:12:55.:12:59.

go to somewhere more difficult for Labour which is political apathy.

:13:00.:13:01.

Thank you for that. Attention now shifts to the House

:13:02.:13:04.

of Lords where peers will begin scrutinising the EU Withdrawal Bill

:13:05.:13:07.

in just over a week. Brexit Secretary David Davis urged

:13:08.:13:09.

the Lords "to do its patriotic duty" and resist the urge to tinker

:13:10.:13:12.

with the legislation. Former minister Oliver Letwin

:13:13.:13:14.

went one further - mooting the possibility

:13:15.:13:16.

of the abolition of the Lords if it sought to frustrate

:13:17.:13:18.

the bill in any way. Here he is posing the question

:13:19.:13:21.

in the Commons on Thursday. Would he find time, in government

:13:22.:13:28.

time for a debate, should the other place seek to delay beyond the end

:13:29.:13:31.

of March the passage of our accession to Article 50, for this

:13:32.:13:35.

House to discuss the possibility of either the abolition or full-scale

:13:36.:13:38.

reform of the other place? And Oliver Letwin joins

:13:39.:13:47.

me now from Dorset. Welcome back to the programme Mr Let

:13:48.:14:00.

win. Before we come on to the Lord's, can I get your thoughts on a

:14:01.:14:04.

matter that has been making the news this morning and John Bercow's

:14:05.:14:09.

remarks about being a remain voter an giving something of a running

:14:10.:14:13.

commentary on various Brexit issues, has he sqloefr stepped the mark as

:14:14.:14:18.

speaker? -- overstepped the mark. I think this is slightly a fuss about

:14:19.:14:26.

nothing. Every person who thinks about politics will have had some

:14:27.:14:29.

opinion about great matters like Brexit, and I really don't see any

:14:30.:14:33.

particular reason why his opinion shouldn't be known after the fact.

:14:34.:14:39.

I, I was there throughout the five days of the Brexit debate, and I

:14:40.:14:43.

have to say, I thought he was pretty scrupulously fair in the way he

:14:44.:14:48.

handled the House, so, I, I don't really share the view that there is

:14:49.:14:52.

some terrible thing that has been revealed this weekend. Let me come

:14:53.:14:56.

on to what we are here to talk about, which is the Lords. Why have

:14:57.:15:02.

you raised the threat of the abolition of the Lord for doing its

:15:03.:15:06.

job of scrutinising what is coming out the Commons? Well, you know,

:15:07.:15:15.

Andrew, this question of the job of the House of Lords and scrutiny, has

:15:16.:15:19.

to be looked at carefully. There are all sorts of bills that come out the

:15:20.:15:24.

House of Commons which are detailed things that relate to, finance, and

:15:25.:15:29.

expenditure, and the criminal law, and all that sort of thing, and all

:15:30.:15:33.

of that, I admire the work that the House of Lords does, as you say

:15:34.:15:37.

scrutinising and we shouldn't use that word loosely, it means looking

:15:38.:15:43.

carefully at the detail, line by line of complicated legislation,

:15:44.:15:49.

hundreds of Paps in some cases, and spotting, using the considerable

:15:50.:15:52.

expertise many, not all be many of the peers have, in any given field,

:15:53.:15:57.

to identify things where the Commons has got it wrong in the sense that

:15:58.:16:01.

the legislation wouldn't achieve what the Government of the day is

:16:02.:16:04.

seeking to make it achieve. That is a serious proper role for an Upper

:16:05.:16:09.

House and the House of Lords performs it pretty

:16:10.:16:13.

Now this is a very different case. This is a two clause bill. The first

:16:14.:16:24.

clause which is the operative clause says the Prime Minister should go

:16:25.:16:30.

ahead and sign... I understand all that. We haven't got that much time,

:16:31.:16:36.

this is becoming a monologue. There is nothing to scrutinise, Andrew.

:16:37.:16:43.

There were plenty of amendments put before the Commons, none of them got

:16:44.:16:48.

through, it is true. There are eight Labour amendments in the Lords, are

:16:49.:16:51.

you resigned to this bill coming back to the Commons with amendments?

:16:52.:16:57.

No, it should not come back with amendments. There were hundreds of

:16:58.:17:00.

amendments literally put down in the House of Commons, they were all

:17:01.:17:04.

drunk. They were all trying one way or another to derail the process.

:17:05.:17:08.

This is a binary issue, should Theresa May sign the withdrawal or

:17:09.:17:16.

not? What should the Commons do? The Commons has now voted in favour of

:17:17.:17:21.

it. Node do should tolerate and unelected chamber forcing the

:17:22.:17:30.

British people... The people voted in a referendum and the Commons

:17:31.:17:33.

voted. The matter is now signed and sealed and should not be derailed by

:17:34.:17:39.

the House of Lords. On Labour amendment wants confirmation that

:17:40.:17:43.

when it is done, the potential Brexit agreement will be put before

:17:44.:17:47.

parliament before any vote in the European Parliament, that has been

:17:48.:17:52.

an agreed principle, what is wrong with that amendments? The government

:17:53.:17:57.

has already agreed there will be a vote, but actually, what the

:17:58.:18:00.

amendments were seeking was to give the Commons a further vote on

:18:01.:18:05.

whether we actually leave or not. That is already decided. Neither the

:18:06.:18:09.

House of Lords nor anybody else has a right in my view, despite the fact

:18:10.:18:14.

I was a remain, to what the will of the British people. Nobody should

:18:15.:18:19.

think an unelected chamber should now try to change the course of

:18:20.:18:24.

British history by asserting amendments in a very effective on

:18:25.:18:29.

clause bill which says go ahead and trigger Article 50. Are you

:18:30.:18:32.

concerned that amendments by the Lords which would then have to go

:18:33.:18:35.

back to the Commons for consideration, are you concerned

:18:36.:18:42.

that could derail or delay the Prime Minister's timetable for Article 50?

:18:43.:18:47.

Yes, exactly. That would be the result of a prolonged bout of

:18:48.:18:52.

ping-pong between the two houses, or much worse, if the House of Lords

:18:53.:18:55.

failed to give way and the Parliament act had to be used. It

:18:56.:19:00.

would really be intolerable. It is not good for our country. Those of

:19:01.:19:04.

us who voted remain would prefer for that not to happen. The whole

:19:05.:19:10.

country -- it is important for the whole country that this happens in a

:19:11.:19:15.

rapid way and allowing the government free rein to negotiate,

:19:16.:19:19.

that is surely in all our advantages? Deed think any efforts

:19:20.:19:23.

to abolish the House of Lords, an issue you have raised, does that

:19:24.:19:28.

make it easier because your friend David Cameron stuffed the upper

:19:29.:19:35.

chamber with donors, lapdogs and lingerie designers? I was among

:19:36.:19:39.

those who advocated for many years wholesale reform of the House of

:19:40.:19:44.

Lords, to turn it into a serious elected second chamber. I think we

:19:45.:19:48.

should have an upper house which commands legitimacy. This is a

:19:49.:19:53.

second issue. Here we have not got such a House and it seems to be very

:19:54.:19:58.

clear that it should not seek to derail on delay the action which has

:19:59.:20:02.

been mandated by the referendum, agreed by the House of Commons, and

:20:03.:20:06.

what we want to see now is a smooth orderly effect for this bill, so it

:20:07.:20:12.

becomes law and Theresa May can go ahead and negotiate on our behalf.

:20:13.:20:17.

One more question on the process, if the Lords to amend the bill and it

:20:18.:20:20.

goes back to the Commons and the Commons sends these amendments back

:20:21.:20:26.

again, take them out, how long could this ping-pong between the two

:20:27.:20:33.

chambers go on in your experience? It is a very, very interesting and

:20:34.:20:37.

complicated question with the clerks of the two ends of the Palace of

:20:38.:20:42.

Westminster not always agreeing about this. But through certain

:20:43.:20:47.

machinations of slightly changing amendments as they go, in my

:20:48.:20:50.

experience this could carry on for an awful long time if clever people,

:20:51.:20:54.

and there are plenty of clever people in the House of Lords, want

:20:55.:20:57.

to do that and that is precisely why I think we should not tolerate it.

:20:58.:21:02.

Oliver Letwin, thank you for joining us from Dorset.

:21:03.:21:04.

Joining me now is Labour's Leader in the House of Lords, Angela Smith.

:21:05.:21:09.

The Commons passed this bill without any amendments... There were

:21:10.:21:15.

changes, the government did concede a couple of points. But the

:21:16.:21:20.

amendments did not go through. Does that put pressure on the Lords to do

:21:21.:21:25.

the same? I think the Lords always feels under pressure to do the right

:21:26.:21:29.

thing. When I heard Oliver Letwin, I did not know whether to laugh or

:21:30.:21:35.

cry. We will not frustrate, we will not wreck, we will not sabotage. We

:21:36.:21:41.

will do what David Davis said was our patriotic duty. We will

:21:42.:21:45.

scrutinise the bill. We have at amendments from the Labour Party. We

:21:46.:21:49.

will look at those. It depends on the government response if we vote

:21:50.:21:52.

on those. There could be amendments asking the Commons to look again.

:21:53.:21:56.

That is normally what we do. It is not the wrong thing to do. But if

:21:57.:22:02.

you do this and make amendments, it then goes back to the Commons. If

:22:03.:22:07.

the Commons rejects the Lords' amendments, what do you think will

:22:08.:22:11.

happen? I do not see any extended ping-pong at all. It is perfectly

:22:12.:22:17.

legitimate. We are not talking about the outcome of negotiations, we are

:22:18.:22:21.

talking about the process. The process of engaging with Parliament

:22:22.:22:24.

and reporting to Parliament. It would be totally responsible for

:22:25.:22:28.

Parliament to say, off you go, Theresa May, have two years of

:22:29.:22:31.

negotiation and come back and talk to us at the end. The has to be a

:22:32.:22:35.

process where the government can use the expertise of parliament to get

:22:36.:22:40.

this right. But if you do put in some amendments, it has to go back

:22:41.:22:46.

to the Commons, they may well say they don't want those amendments and

:22:47.:22:48.

it may go back to the Lords, could that at the very least delay the

:22:49.:22:54.

Prime Minister's Brexit timetable? I don't think so. She said the end of

:22:55.:22:59.

March. Time has been built in for all the normal processes. I think

:23:00.:23:03.

Oliver Letwin and others are getting a bit overexcited. This is the

:23:04.:23:06.

normal process. Unless the government get things right the

:23:07.:23:10.

first time every time, the has to be this kind of process. These are

:23:11.:23:15.

reasonable amendments. This is a Labour amendment we are talking

:23:16.:23:19.

about here, you want a vote in the UK Parliament before any

:23:20.:23:32.

vote in the European Parliament if and when the Brexit deal is done,

:23:33.:23:36.

the Commons and the Lords get to vote on it first. But the government

:23:37.:23:39.

I think have already agreed to that so what is the point? It needs to be

:23:40.:23:43.

on the face of the bill. It is over well if the government have agreed

:23:44.:23:45.

it. Lord dubs had an agreement about child and look what happened to

:23:46.:23:49.

that. Does not sound as if you would go to the wire on that? It is

:23:50.:23:55.

important it is not just about the vote at the end, you have the

:23:56.:24:00.

ongoing engagement. If it is going to be a bad deal, we need to know

:24:01.:24:05.

long before we get to that stage? Is it something you would hold out for?

:24:06.:24:10.

I don't know yet. It is about how the House of Lords votes, Labour do

:24:11.:24:15.

not have a majority, we never had a majority in the House of Lords when

:24:16.:24:19.

we were in government. It is wrong to suggest that we cannot debate

:24:20.:24:24.

these issues... I don't think anyone is suggesting that. They are. It is

:24:25.:24:30.

not unfair to ask the government to ask the House of Commons to look

:24:31.:24:34.

again to look at those issues if that is what the House of Lords

:24:35.:24:38.

decides. Bit of the House of Commons says we looked, we are sticking with

:24:39.:24:43.

what we voted for, we rejected every amendment by at least 30 votes on

:24:44.:24:47.

all occasions, the Lords then have to buckle, is that what you are

:24:48.:24:52.

saying? Some point I think it is clear the House of Commons have to

:24:53.:24:55.

have its say. I think it is inconceivable that having had a

:24:56.:24:59.

referendum, which was not overwhelming, but it was a clear

:25:00.:25:05.

result, the House of Lords has no intention of sabotaging that but

:25:06.:25:07.

there are things which are not good about the process that we think

:25:08.:25:12.

could be improved. We have not just have the result of the referendum

:25:13.:25:16.

which voted to leave, but we have had the will of the Commons that

:25:17.:25:21.

passed this legislation by a majority of 372. And I am not

:25:22.:25:28.

contesting that for a second! Could you cite a precedent for the upper

:25:29.:25:32.

house amending a bill which passed by 372 votes in the Commons? Quite

:25:33.:25:37.

other things will come to the House of Lords with big majorities from

:25:38.:25:40.

the Commons and quite often the amendments we get, with that then

:25:41.:25:44.

forward and the government sees it could do better. Though not

:25:45.:25:50.

necessarily saying the government has got things wrong, but they could

:25:51.:25:52.

do things better. That happens time and time again and it is not

:25:53.:25:58.

unusual. If you were seen to thwart the referendum result and the vote

:25:59.:26:03.

in the Commons, the elected chamber of parliament, is the threat of

:26:04.:26:07.

abolition hanging over you? I think that is really ridiculous and

:26:08.:26:11.

absolute nonsense. We are not tying to what the decision of the House of

:26:12.:26:14.

Commons, we are trying to do better. It is a bit rich of the government

:26:15.:26:18.

and Oliver Letwin to complain about getting things through in time when

:26:19.:26:23.

the House of Commons spent -- the government spent three months trying

:26:24.:26:28.

to debate this issue. There have been some strong questions put to

:26:29.:26:31.

the government from the House of Lords on all sides. I don't know if

:26:32.:26:35.

the amendments have been passed or not. I think we have a good case for

:26:36.:26:44.

the government to get debate the point. If a traditional MP like

:26:45.:26:51.

Oliver Letwin is calling for the abolition of the hereditary and

:26:52.:26:54.

appointed chamber, and the Labour person like yourself was trying to

:26:55.:26:58.

defend that, that would not be a sustainable position, I would

:26:59.:27:04.

suggest! We saw this with the Strathclyde report as well, this is

:27:05.:27:06.

a government like no other. It is the first Conservative government in

:27:07.:27:10.

history not to have an automatic majority. They do not like challenge

:27:11.:27:15.

or scrutiny. But you get my point, Labour cannot go to the wire in

:27:16.:27:20.

defending and an elected second chamber, can it? Actually, Labour

:27:21.:27:23.

can go to the wire in saying the government does not get it right

:27:24.:27:27.

every time. House of Lords is going to normal processes and people like

:27:28.:27:33.

Oliver Letwin are really getting a little bit over excited, and people

:27:34.:27:37.

who have been anonymously briefing. Who has been anonymously briefing? I

:27:38.:27:44.

don't know, they are anonymous! I understand people want to make

:27:45.:27:47.

amendments, that is the role of the House of Lords, but can I just for

:27:48.:27:51.

the avoidance of doubt, is it still your case that whatever amendments

:27:52.:27:55.

to make, whatever may go back and forward, it is not your intention to

:27:56.:28:00.

stop Article 50 being triggered by the end of March? I have been saying

:28:01.:28:06.

that, exactly that for months and months and months. It is

:28:07.:28:09.

inconceivable that an unelected House will thwart the will of the

:28:10.:28:12.

House of Commons and a referendum on this issue. But that does not mean

:28:13.:28:16.

we will be bullied by Oliver Letwin and others. But the triggering will

:28:17.:28:21.

happen by the end of March? I very much suspect so unless Theresa May

:28:22.:28:27.

has second thoughts, I suspect that will happen. Thank you.

:28:28.:28:30.

Now, just because it's parliamentary recess next week

:28:31.:28:32.

There are two by-elections round the corner -

:28:33.:28:35.

one in Copeland, and another in Stoke-on-Trent Central

:28:36.:28:38.

where the former Shadow Education Secretary,

:28:39.:28:39.

Tristram Hunt, vacated his seat to take up a role

:28:40.:28:41.

as Director of the Victoria Albert Museum in London.

:28:42.:28:44.

But Labour are facing a fight to hold onto the constituency

:28:45.:28:47.

Seconds away, Ukip's new leader has stepped into the ring

:28:48.:28:53.

as their candidate in a by-election bout to see

:28:54.:28:55.

At the last election Ukip came second to Labour here

:28:56.:29:03.

But now they are confident they can land a knockout blow,

:29:04.:29:07.

because this place is packed with people that voted to leave the EU.

:29:08.:29:14.

70% of people voted to leave the European Union.

:29:15.:29:17.

I'm the only candidate standing in this election

:29:18.:29:25.

who is a true Brexiteer, who has always campaigned to leave

:29:26.:29:28.

the EU and therefore I believe I would be the best person

:29:29.:29:31.

But he has had to fight off allegations

:29:32.:29:33.

he wasn't living in the constituency when he entered the contest.

:29:34.:29:36.

Explain to me what is going on with this issue about your house?

:29:37.:29:39.

Well, we took up the lease the day before nominations.

:29:40.:29:42.

Everything we've done is perfectly legal and within the law.

:29:43.:29:44.

The Labour Party are trying to get off the real issues in this election

:29:45.:29:50.

and focus on something which is banal nonsense.

:29:51.:29:56.

And there's been trouble as well for the Labour contender.

:29:57.:30:02.

He's been labelled a Remoaner after he sent a series

:30:03.:30:04.

of anti-Brexit tweets, filled with words

:30:05.:30:07.

I can't believe I'm about to ask this question in a nursery

:30:08.:30:18.

on a Sunday morning TV programme, but did you really tweet that

:30:19.:30:21.

I tweeted many things about Brexit, that's tweet is out there.

:30:22.:30:25.

It was done quite after the referendum result and it

:30:26.:30:28.

was my way of showing my frustration at the fact that months

:30:29.:30:31.

after the result we hadn't had anything from the government.

:30:32.:30:36.

Theresa May had failed to produce any plan,

:30:37.:30:38.

she had failed to give any meaningful statement

:30:39.:30:40.

about what Brexit meant other than bland statements

:30:41.:30:42.

about Brexit is Brexit, and it's a hard Brexit, or a soft Brexit.

:30:43.:30:45.

The context of it was it was out of frustration.

:30:46.:30:49.

So you didn't mean to insult the 70% of the people who live here

:30:50.:30:52.

I never mean to insult anybody and you know,

:30:53.:30:56.

I've made it quite clear, if I'm elected as the member

:30:57.:30:58.

of Parliament for Stoke-on-Trent Central, I will absolutely respect

:30:59.:31:00.

the wishes of the people of Stoke Central.

:31:01.:31:02.

I will make sure my vote in parliament is to trigger Article 50.

:31:03.:31:06.

While the Tories' man has done little bit of rebranding too.

:31:07.:31:09.

I voted Remain and I've been open about that, but my top priority

:31:10.:31:12.

is about the economy and to ensure we still have an

:31:13.:31:15.

Theresa May has set out clear proposal to ensure we develop

:31:16.:31:18.

a trade relationship with Europe and make that a success.

:31:19.:31:29.

It means the Lib Dems and the Greens are the ones battling Brexit.

:31:30.:31:32.

Well, when the Lib Dem candidate is actually here.

:31:33.:31:34.

The candidate is a consultant cardiologist.

:31:35.:31:40.

He is actually at work today doing very important heart surgery.

:31:41.:31:42.

He will be back tomorrow, back on the campaign trail working hard.

:31:43.:31:45.

30% of people voted to Remain and nobody else

:31:46.:31:49.

is representing them, so, you know, it is still a live issue.

:31:50.:31:53.

It is still something people care about.

:31:54.:31:55.

We are only at the start of the Article 50 process

:31:56.:31:57.

We are very a clear that we are standing up for those

:31:58.:32:02.

who want to remain in the single market, who want to protect jobs

:32:03.:32:05.

Labour have taken people for granted in this area for a great many years.

:32:06.:32:10.

Ukip, I'm afraid, all Ukip can offer to politics is division.

:32:11.:32:13.

I've covered a lot of by-elections where Ukip have come second.

:32:14.:32:15.

We'll find out if they really got Labour on the ropes this

:32:16.:32:18.

And here is a full list of all the candidates standing

:32:19.:32:38.

in the Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election.

:32:39.:32:49.

They do atract lots of candidates. You can get that on the BBC website

:32:50.:32:58.

as well. I was trying to think back, here we have the main opposition

:32:59.:33:06.

party defending two seats in by-elections in the midterm of a

:33:07.:33:08.

government. All the speculation is where the

:33:09.:33:15.

opposition party can hold on, that is unprecedented. I can't give of an

:33:16.:33:20.

equivalent. You wouldn't just expect them to win seats they have held

:33:21.:33:26.

traditionally, you would expect hem to make inroads into seats held by

:33:27.:33:32.

the other party, I wonder if they fail to hold on to just one of

:33:33.:33:35.

these, whether it accelerates the momentum and criticism of the

:33:36.:33:41.

leadership of the moment. I think they are interesting constituencies.

:33:42.:33:45.

Matthew good win was talking about the left win coalition over the

:33:46.:33:51.

years, almost being too broad for its own good, including places like

:33:52.:33:58.

Primrose Hill and Hackney. Big university towns in Manchester,

:33:59.:34:03.

Bristol. Diverse ethnically and included places like Stoke which are

:34:04.:34:12.

more Conservative. With a small c. Less economically well-off, more

:34:13.:34:17.

diverse, can the left hang on to both bits of country. Recent

:34:18.:34:20.

evidence suggests it cannot and the opportunity for Ukip is to pick up

:34:21.:34:24.

the second of those two types of community, the Stokes and the cope

:34:25.:34:28.

lands. That what makes the by-elections interest I would

:34:29.:34:32.

suggest. It is not just about Mr Corbyn's future about which we hear

:34:33.:34:37.

too much, it is about this traditional Labour coalition, can it

:34:38.:34:41.

still survive, particularly in places like Stoke? Europe clearly is

:34:42.:34:46.

a test. I think it's a myth by the way that Labour are only split now,

:34:47.:34:53.

over Europe and it has always been a Tory problem, last time I was on I

:34:54.:34:57.

mentioned it. That is why we had a referendum in 75. That is why they

:34:58.:35:04.

had a round then. But they were in chaos behind the scenes over what

:35:05.:35:09.

they thought about the euro, skillful leadership can paper over

:35:10.:35:14.

the cracks, and to address the wider issue of whether we are now in an

:35:15.:35:18.

era where left right issues have disappeared, and there is more of a

:35:19.:35:23.

regional divide, if you take Europe out of the equation which you can't,

:35:24.:35:30.

but if you were able to, issues about health, transport housing do

:35:31.:35:34.

split more left-right than a regional divide, so I think there is

:35:35.:35:39.

still fundamental left-right issues, but Europe isn't one of them and

:35:40.:35:44.

Europe has to be managed by a Labour leader skill fully and evidently

:35:45.:35:48.

that hasn't happened now. How would you see the by-elections in the

:35:49.:35:53.

current political context? Labour should be walking them, it should be

:35:54.:35:58.

a sign of the March of the Labour Party taking on the current

:35:59.:36:00.

Conservative Government. I don't think they raise any questions about

:36:01.:36:03.

Corbyn's leadership because the people who put him in don't think

:36:04.:36:07.

that winning elections matter, you have to remember this will be the

:36:08.:36:12.

mainstream media, it will be our fault why any of those Labour

:36:13.:36:17.

candidates don't win, the thing that is interesting is whether there is

:36:18.:36:20.

is a role for Ukip. The argument after the referendum was Ukip has

:36:21.:36:24.

done its job, it got the referendum, nothing to see here, I remember

:36:25.:36:30.

speaking to put a Nuttall before he was Ukip leader, on the day after

:36:31.:36:37.

the battle and he said this is Year Zero, where Ukip starts now, and

:36:38.:36:41.

this, and this is the interesting thing, does, do we see this one

:36:42.:36:44.

particular party having a role in the future? And I think it is all to

:36:45.:36:49.

play for, they could not not have stood in this seat. They have to win

:36:50.:36:53.

it to be an electoral force. The Labour candidate in Copeland has

:36:54.:36:57.

made the NHS the issue for her in this, that goes into the left-right,

:36:58.:37:00.

are we spending enough, are we not? That will be a test of what you were

:37:01.:37:06.

saying to see if traditional left-right issue, which at the

:37:07.:37:09.

moment would play Labour's way I would suggest, are big enough to

:37:10.:37:13.

overcome all the things you have been talking about and Matthew has

:37:14.:37:17.

been talking about. Maybe at this particular junction they are not,

:37:18.:37:21.

but I don't think any of those issues will go away, and that is why

:37:22.:37:27.

I question whether we are see the end of a historic left-right divide.

:37:28.:37:33.

At the moment with Europe so prominent, clearly these

:37:34.:37:36.

by-elections are unusual. And they will be a test of leadership for

:37:37.:37:40.

Theresa May in the coming months if not at the moment, as they have been

:37:41.:37:44.

in a way that he hasn't risen to, for the Labour leader.

:37:45.:37:49.

We will be leave on BBC One on the night, February 23rd off back of

:37:50.:37:53.

this week, we will bring you the result of both these crucial

:37:54.:37:55.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:56.:37:58.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:37:59.:38:01.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:38:02.:38:17.

In the East Midlands, women on the march.

:38:18.:38:19.

# When I get older, dyeing my hair...#

:38:20.:38:21.

Thousands affected by changes to their pension age

:38:22.:38:23.

Over 2.6 million women across the UK have

:38:24.:38:26.

lost ?36,000, up to ?40,000 out of a planned pension pot, which

:38:27.:38:31.

And the Brexit hotspots, and the polling

:38:32.:38:39.

centre which exactly matched the national results.

:38:40.:38:41.

A new survey produces a detailed map of how the

:38:42.:38:43.

region voted, but has anyone changed their mind?

:38:44.:38:48.

I think it will do the country good. So...

:38:49.:38:51.

Get it back to English-grown produce.

:38:52.:38:54.

We could start trading in other countries

:38:55.:38:55.

I had no big reason to vote to stay in, I just thought

:38:56.:39:01.

it was a logical reason to stay in, because I think it's more

:39:02.:39:04.

Hello, I'm Marie Ashby, and my guests this week -

:39:05.:39:11.

Mark Spencer is the Conservative MP for Sherwood, and Margot Parker

:39:12.:39:14.

is a Ukip member for the European Parliament

:39:15.:39:16.

And let's start by looking at a story raised in

:39:17.:39:20.

A Derbyshire headteacher who normally runs marathons

:39:21.:39:27.

for charity is having to raise funds for his school instead.

:39:28.:39:33.

Dave Shaw is head of the Spire Primary School in Chesterfield,

:39:34.:39:36.

which is facing a ?19,000 cut in its budget.

:39:37.:39:38.

His case was raised by Toby Perkins at this week's

:39:39.:39:40.

The headteacher, Dave Shaw, was running

:39:41.:39:49.

However, her new school's funding formula means that

:39:50.:39:52.

Spire Junior School now faces the biggest cuts

:39:53.:39:53.

Running for cash is now the only alternative to sacking staff.

:39:54.:39:59.

Mark Spencer - Dave Shaw, there, used to

:40:00.:40:01.

Running marathons for charity is one thing, but having

:40:02.:40:05.

to run to pay his staff's wages - that's mad!

:40:06.:40:10.

Yes, I think clearly every pupil, whether they are in

:40:11.:40:13.

Chesterfield or in Sherwood, should get the same amount of funding right

:40:14.:40:16.

across the country and that's what we're trying to achieve.

:40:17.:40:19.

At the moment, a pupil in Nottinghamshire

:40:20.:40:21.

If you compare that to Islington, to pick a

:40:22.:40:27.

constituency at random, that's over ?6,000 per pupil, and even if you

:40:28.:40:30.

consider the London weighting of that, that's

:40:31.:40:32.

So, the good news is that Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire on average, when

:40:33.:40:38.

we apply this new formula, win on average.

:40:39.:40:41.

So I think you've got to bring balance to the country so that

:40:42.:40:44.

a pupil in Sherwood gets the same cash as a pupil anywhere else.

:40:45.:40:47.

And headteachers like Dave don't have to

:40:48.:40:49.

go running to try to get money to pay the wages.

:40:50.:40:52.

This isn't just a one-off, though, Mark, is it?

:40:53.:40:54.

The PTA, the charity which supports parents,

:40:55.:40:56.

reported just over a week ago that more than a third of

:40:57.:40:59.

parents are being asked to contribute to school funds to top it

:41:00.:41:01.

Well, I mean, I think if you go back, parent teacher associations

:41:02.:41:08.

have existed forever, and there's always

:41:09.:41:09.

something else you can buy to

:41:10.:41:10.

Yes, but this is for books and things like that that children need

:41:11.:41:15.

So, we need to make sure that the funding system for our

:41:16.:41:19.

schools is fair right across the country,

:41:20.:41:21.

and whether you are a pupil here in Nottinghamshire or

:41:22.:41:23.

Derbyshire or Leicestershire, you get the same support, the same

:41:24.:41:25.

amount of cash, as anywhere else in the country,

:41:26.:41:28.

Margot Parker, what do you think about this?

:41:29.:41:32.

I think clearly it's got to be balanced out.

:41:33.:41:37.

It's not right that somebody runs to handle load of

:41:38.:41:42.

It's not right that somebody runs to hand a load of

:41:43.:41:44.

money over in order to be able to maintain a teacher or maintain

:41:45.:41:48.

breakfast at school, or whatever it is they are trying to do.

:41:49.:41:50.

There should be an equal playing field.

:41:51.:41:52.

You can't mess around with education - it's got to be fair.

:41:53.:41:55.

Yes, it's massive, it's not acceptable.

:41:56.:41:58.

It's worth pointing out, at the moment

:41:59.:42:03.

it's not fair, so there are schools who are

:42:04.:42:05.

getting a lot less cash in

:42:06.:42:07.

Nottinghamshire than in other parts of the country.

:42:08.:42:09.

Well, to be quite honest, education is very

:42:10.:42:13.

I mean, at the end of the day, it has to be found from

:42:14.:42:17.

I'm not an education spokesperson, but I can tell you

:42:18.:42:21.

that you got to have a fairness, you got to have kids that,

:42:22.:42:24.

if they don't get breakfast, a breakfast is

:42:25.:42:26.

That's important, because no child should

:42:27.:42:28.

have to start the day hungry, or any other way.

:42:29.:42:31.

So, wherever it comes from, I think it has to be found, because

:42:32.:42:37.

the children are the future, at the end of the day.

:42:38.:42:40.

It's not their fault - we have to really look after them.

:42:41.:42:44.

Well, hundreds of women from across the East Midlands

:42:45.:42:47.

are planning to join a national protest in London next month

:42:48.:42:50.

The so-called Waspis, or Women Against State Pension Inequality,

:42:51.:42:53.

are angry that changes to their retirement age

:42:54.:42:55.

have left them having to work longer than planned

:42:56.:42:57.

Our political reporter Helen McCulloch's been

:42:58.:43:00.

# Send me a forecast, drop me a line, try to change your mind.

:43:01.:43:05.

# Indicate precisely what you mean to say, Waspi women,

:43:06.:43:10.

The Waspi campaign began two years ago when women born

:43:11.:43:16.

Two pensions acts aimed at bringing women's retirement age in line

:43:17.:43:26.

with men meant women born in the 50s would have to wait until they were

:43:27.:43:30.

Campaigners say they were never informed of the changes,

:43:31.:43:35.

We're very angry and very frustrated, and I've completely lost

:43:36.:43:41.

all trust in the government and politicians and systems

:43:42.:43:43.

I paid a full stamp, and I honestly thought

:43:44.:43:49.

I would get my pension when I reached 60,

:43:50.:43:51.

I organised this big party, everything, thinking...

:43:52.:43:56.

And two weeks before this, then I get told off,

:43:57.:44:03.

Tricia Clough is one of the main coordinators of the campaign,

:44:04.:44:10.

and insists the government failed to inform millions of women

:44:11.:44:13.

The government are saying, we've put it out on the news,

:44:14.:44:17.

we had a news item, and we also put little articles in newspapers.

:44:18.:44:20.

We've had women who've lost their partners, who have had

:44:21.:44:26.

We've had some women who had to go on jobseekers' schemes,

:44:27.:44:36.

which they've found really difficult emotionally, physically...

:44:37.:44:38.

Meetings like this are happening up and down the country,

:44:39.:44:40.

and it seems the Waspi movement shows no signs of slowing down,

:44:41.:44:43.

but not everybody has welcomed their campaign.

:44:44.:44:47.

If the Waspi campaign got their way, which was for

:44:48.:44:52.

If the Waspi campaign got their way, which was for a bridging pension

:44:53.:44:55.

in the 1950s, then a woman born on the 1st of January 1960 would not

:44:56.:45:00.

only see her classmate one day older gets six years of tension

:45:01.:45:03.

only see her classmate one day older gets six years of pension

:45:04.:45:06.

that she would not get, but she would have to paperback

:45:07.:45:09.

that she would not get, but she would have to pay for that

:45:10.:45:12.

through higher national insurance contributions and higher taxes.

:45:13.:45:14.

I can't see how that is in anyway fair.

:45:15.:45:17.

The other group of I think who are grossly discriminated

:45:18.:45:19.

The Department for Work and Pensions say that the decision to equalise

:45:20.:45:28.

the state pension age was made over 20 years ago, and there are no

:45:29.:45:32.

My husband's retired now, and the two of us

:45:33.:45:35.

We are just having to scrape through.

:45:36.:45:39.

Making sure their voices are heard is a key priority for this campaign.

:45:40.:45:48.

The next step, a march on Parliament on budget day.

:45:49.:45:51.

# Will you still bleed me, corrupt and greedy,

:45:52.:46:04.

That's what those women are saying, Mark Spencer, and you

:46:05.:46:08.

probably recognise them, because some of them are actually your

:46:09.:46:10.

constituents and I know that you've met them, and actually,

:46:11.:46:13.

they say that you've been very dismissive of

:46:14.:46:15.

Well, I've met them a number of times, actually.

:46:16.:46:19.

I've met them certainly in the constituency, I've

:46:20.:46:21.

met them in London when they came to London.

:46:22.:46:23.

I think there's some good news in this in that clearly society

:46:24.:46:27.

has changed, women's roles have changed since the 1950s.

:46:28.:46:29.

Of course we are living a lot longer, so...

:46:30.:46:31.

They haven't got enough money for their retirement.

:46:32.:46:33.

If you go back to the 50s, people would retire at 65 as a

:46:34.:46:38.

man and probably would pass away in their early 70s.

:46:39.:46:40.

Now we are all living to, sort of, 80 plus,

:46:41.:46:42.

These women say they've never really had

:46:43.:46:45.

equality, and now this is happening to them.

:46:46.:46:47.

So, the pension needs to adapt to those circumstances, and

:46:48.:46:50.

we've got to be fair to those women coming behind, to the 18-year-old

:46:51.:46:53.

girl who is coming out of university who's

:46:54.:46:55.

going to have to fund this

:46:56.:46:56.

system, so we've got to get the balance right.

:46:57.:47:02.

The government has listened, actually, and made ?1 billion

:47:03.:47:04.

of concessions, so it only makes about a year's difference

:47:05.:47:07.

OK, Margot Parker, the women fighting this change feel

:47:08.:47:13.

that they haven't really been given enough notice on this, as you heard

:47:14.:47:17.

Is that really fair, though, actually?

:47:18.:47:20.

Because the law's been in place for nearly 20 years now.

:47:21.:47:23.

Yes, it has, and I am quite sorry for them,

:47:24.:47:27.

because I think, to be honest, you know, they will have

:47:28.:47:29.

brought their children up, they will often have had jobs

:47:30.:47:32.

where they are perhaps working in local government,

:47:33.:47:35.

you know, not terribly well paid, paid their contribution, thought

:47:36.:47:37.

they were going to get their pension, and then, this particular

:47:38.:47:43.

group, I think, you know, also take care

:47:44.:47:47.

their families, so I think you've got a balance there where they are

:47:48.:47:52.

But there has to be a cut-off, doesn't that?

:47:53.:47:56.

Because what about people who were born in the 1960s?

:47:57.:48:01.

Well, this is true, but there has got to

:48:02.:48:04.

people are paid today so that they can actually

:48:05.:48:07.

They've got to have the dignity of a reasonable pension

:48:08.:48:13.

that they can survive on, because, if they said, well, I've only got

:48:14.:48:16.

this amount of money, and frankly, I can't pay my bills...

:48:17.:48:19.

This is an issue where dignity is really important,

:48:20.:48:21.

because it is very harsh for some of the 500,000 women

:48:22.:48:24.

They have paid into their pensions, they were expecting to see some of

:48:25.:48:29.

Some of them are having to go onto Jobseeker's

:48:30.:48:32.

Allowance, and they say that's degrading -

:48:33.:48:33.

they shouldn't have to be doing that, Mark.

:48:34.:48:35.

Wherever you draw the line, someone is going to lose out.

:48:36.:48:40.

But should they be on Jobseeker's Allowance?

:48:41.:48:41.

Wouldn't you rather they get the money that they've put in?

:48:42.:48:44.

I think, to be fair, my mother is 70,

:48:45.:48:46.

My mother in law is 71, and she's still working,

:48:47.:48:49.

so lots of women are fit and able to work and enjoy that, actually

:48:50.:48:53.

government, then, write to these women

:48:54.:48:57.

individually and say, this is

:48:58.:48:58.

what's going to happen, it unique to prepare

:48:59.:49:00.

what's going to happen, it, you need to prepare

:49:01.:49:02.

for this, we're letting you

:49:03.:49:03.

I mean, to be fair, Mark, we all got letters about

:49:04.:49:07.

There was an enormous amount of coverage in the

:49:08.:49:10.

media and in the press, and lots of women were written to.

:49:11.:49:13.

Now, some of the Waspi women are saying they

:49:14.:49:15.

Now, of course, there's no way of knowing

:49:16.:49:19.

whether those letters arrived or not, or...

:49:20.:49:21.

There wasn't enough notification, maybe they should have

:49:22.:49:23.

There was an enormous amount of coverage,

:49:24.:49:26.

though, in the press, about the equalisation

:49:27.:49:27.

women's pensions having to equalise and come at the same time.

:49:28.:49:31.

We've got to be fair to everybody, so, for those

:49:32.:49:34.

But how can we afford to compensate these women,

:49:35.:49:37.

how could we afford to compensate them?

:49:38.:49:39.

It's a question of balancing looking after people that

:49:40.:49:42.

I mean, dare I go onto the foreign aid

:49:43.:49:45.

budget, maybe I shouldn't, but, you know, there is money,

:49:46.:49:48.

Not ?30 billion, which is what it's going to cost.

:49:49.:49:52.

Not everybody in their 50s is saying they do help.

:49:53.:50:00.

What about giving to those who really are in more need

:50:01.:50:02.

Targeted help to help them, would that be a way of

:50:03.:50:06.

I think that's probably quite sensible.

:50:07.:50:09.

I think you've got to judge cases are they are, and

:50:10.:50:13.

people who have to care for, you know, very sick people,

:50:14.:50:15.

and they are not really being helped.

:50:16.:50:16.

I mean, a lot of people give up their lives,

:50:17.:50:19.

give up perhaps going back into work because they've got sick relatives.

:50:20.:50:22.

You know, I'd like to see a fair system there so that they are not

:50:23.:50:25.

There is a carer's allowance system, of course.

:50:26.:50:28.

To help people in those circumstances.

:50:29.:50:31.

These people are having to compete, as well,

:50:32.:50:33.

Women in their early 60s are going to try and find jobs

:50:34.:50:38.

younger people are going for as well.

:50:39.:50:40.

You want young people to get those jobs.

:50:41.:50:43.

I think women of that generation actually make very good

:50:44.:50:47.

I'm just saying what these women feel about being made to feel

:50:48.:50:52.

guilty, in a way, Mark, that's what they're saying.

:50:53.:50:54.

I'd be disappointed if they felt guilty,

:50:55.:50:57.

I think that would be wrong, if they were to feel like that.

:50:58.:51:00.

The fact that they are having to compete with

:51:01.:51:03.

I think we need to recognise where we are out, and

:51:04.:51:06.

I think we need to recognise where we are at, and

:51:07.:51:09.

there is this enormous challenge in the budget and an enormous

:51:10.:51:11.

properly, and that's what the government is doing.

:51:12.:51:17.

That March is on March the 8th in London.

:51:18.:51:19.

Now, it's been another week in which Brexit has dominated

:51:20.:51:22.

the political scene, with the East Midlands

:51:23.:51:23.

politicians once again at the forefront of the debate.

:51:24.:51:25.

The Grantham MP, Nick Bowles, who is being treated for cancer, left

:51:26.:51:29.

Meanwhile, Brockstowe's Anna Soubry couldn't hide her disgust

:51:30.:51:36.

at some of the debate, and Chris Leslie

:51:37.:51:38.

tabled dozens of amendments, which were all ignored.

:51:39.:51:40.

Of 35 amendments that I have tabled today, I've not been

:51:41.:51:43.

Doesn't it prove that the whole of the curtailing of this debate leaves

:51:44.:51:48.

Parliament and able to scrutinise the EU withdrawal?

:51:49.:51:53.

Parliament unable to scrutinise the EU withdrawal?

:51:54.:51:54.

So, looking at that vote in the Commons,

:51:55.:51:56.

government whip, of course, Ken Clarke was the only Tory who decided

:51:57.:52:01.

Did the whips tried to persuade him otherwise, or

:52:02.:52:04.

His commitments on Europe are well-known, and frankly, I admire

:52:05.:52:10.

him for that, for standing his ground, and defending his well-known

:52:11.:52:13.

position that he's had for a number of years.

:52:14.:52:14.

Now, of course, as the government, we need to recognise

:52:15.:52:17.

that the people took a decision to take it of Europe.

:52:18.:52:20.

that the people took a decision to take us of Europe.

:52:21.:52:23.

The government has to deliver that, and that's

:52:24.:52:27.

And a number of colleagues, including Chris Leslie,

:52:28.:52:30.

frankly, were just trying to slow the process,

:52:31.:52:31.

delay it and block it, and I think that is a travesty,

:52:32.:52:34.

Are you happy now, Margot, that this has passed through

:52:35.:52:38.

We are definitely going to be leaving?

:52:39.:52:41.

Well, yes, I mean, we are making a start, you know, and

:52:42.:52:44.

the heavy ground digging work, I suppose, takes place between the

:52:45.:52:46.

Council of Ministers and our own Brexit Minister, David Davis, who I

:52:47.:52:49.

think probably will do a very good job.

:52:50.:52:51.

Well, what happens in the European Parliament

:52:52.:52:56.

now, though, Margot, with

:52:57.:52:58.

all this activity in the Commons, do you just feel like you're on the

:52:59.:53:01.

sidelines as spectators, really, as a party?

:53:02.:53:02.

I mean, every day, we go through all sorts of

:53:03.:53:06.

things, you know, there are certain things we still have to clearly vote

:53:07.:53:09.

Immediately after Brexit, there was a very strong, very anti-UK mood

:53:10.:53:15.

Even our country's name was dragged off the

:53:16.:53:18.

I mean, it was put back two or three days later.

:53:19.:53:26.

Did it feel like this was a piece of history, this vote, Mark?

:53:27.:53:36.

It really did feel like it was a significant moment in our history,

:53:37.:53:40.

We'll look back at this moment, hopefully, through

:53:41.:53:43.

rose coloured spectacles, and say what a fantastic moment it was in 20

:53:44.:53:46.

years' time when we are trading with countries all over the world.

:53:47.:53:49.

Passions obviously running very high in the Commons.

:53:50.:53:55.

But away from Parliament, the BBC has been

:53:56.:53:57.

carrying out its own analysis of how the voting went in the referendum.

:53:58.:54:00.

It has looked at the results from individual polling stations and

:54:01.:54:03.

found one place here in the East Midlands

:54:04.:54:04.

where the voting exactly matched the national results.

:54:05.:54:06.

Our political editor Tony Rowe has been

:54:07.:54:08.

The 527 people who cast their votes in this pub polling station

:54:09.:54:14.

represent exactly the split between Remain and Leave in the country.

:54:15.:54:17.

51.99% voted that way when they walked

:54:18.:54:20.

into the pub to vote, so the

:54:21.:54:26.

picturesque villages of Mackworth and Kirk Langley, where Amber Valley

:54:27.:54:30.

meets Derby, are an exact barometer of how we feel is a country about

:54:31.:54:34.

Joe Wickes flies the cross of St George

:54:35.:54:43.

I think if there was a big vote again, I do think a

:54:44.:54:49.

lot of people would change their minds,

:54:50.:54:50.

because I think a lot of

:54:51.:54:52.

people like myself didn't realise how big it was, this Brexit thing,

:54:53.:54:55.

In Nottingham, the vote to Leave was narrow, but

:54:56.:54:58.

Bulwell marketplace is of course where the

:54:59.:55:07.

former city trader and then Ukip leader chose to bring his bust

:55:08.:55:10.

former city trader and then Ukip leader chose to bring his bus

:55:11.:55:13.

Shall we hum the theme tune, The Great Escape?

:55:14.:55:23.

We would be better off without the EU.

:55:24.:55:25.

We give too much money away and get no thanks for it.

:55:26.:55:27.

I think it would do the country good.

:55:28.:55:31.

Get it back to English grown produce.

:55:32.:55:34.

We could start trading in other countries apart from the EU, so it

:55:35.:55:37.

Research into how we voted also shows that older people were more

:55:38.:55:41.

Those we spoke to here certainly fit the bill.

:55:42.:55:45.

Ethnic minorities were less likely to vote to Leave.

:55:46.:55:52.

There are concerns about people's attitudes to anyone perceived,

:55:53.:55:55.

Because you're talking about immigrants, as well.

:55:56.:56:00.

All over the world there's immigrants, no matter which way you

:56:01.:56:02.

Where is all the immigrants going to go?

:56:03.:56:05.

Over on the other side of city, we have the

:56:06.:56:08.

Radford Park Ward, where they voted heavily to Remain.

:56:09.:56:10.

The research concluded that this part of Nottingham fits in with

:56:11.:56:14.

I think it's more of a community to stay together.

:56:15.:56:24.

I feel like when people start breaking up, it's like, that's

:56:25.:56:27.

The report, which examined how over 1,000 wards voted, shows a

:56:28.:56:38.

strong link with educational qualifications and voting.

:56:39.:56:40.

The better educated voted to Remain, the

:56:41.:56:42.

It could be about more than that, though.

:56:43.:56:46.

Poorer areas who feel left out, left behind, wanting to blame

:56:47.:56:49.

someone, accepting this simple argument to join the great escape

:56:50.:56:51.

from the EU, to make things better for them.

:56:52.:57:00.

Well, one thing that this BBC survey found, Margot Parker,

:57:01.:57:02.

But it's happened, and everybody, I do believe, wants us to get

:57:03.:57:10.

Let's sort it, let's get it fixed, let's go out and let's

:57:11.:57:21.

get good contracts around the world, let's

:57:22.:57:22.

make sure businesses in the

:57:23.:57:24.

East Midlands thrive, and all over the country, for that matter.

:57:25.:57:26.

There is a lot to be thankful for, that we

:57:27.:57:29.

As the world's fifth-largest economy we've got a lot to look forward to.

:57:30.:57:33.

But we did also hear that ethnic voters tended to vote

:57:34.:57:35.

Remain, and that they obviously still have a lot of concerns.

:57:36.:57:38.

What would you say to those ethnic voters?

:57:39.:57:40.

I would say, frankly, this will be sorted.

:57:41.:57:42.

I mean, nobody is likely to be asked to leave the country.

:57:43.:57:45.

I think that scaremongering of the very worst order.

:57:46.:57:52.

There is that fear, though, isn't there?

:57:53.:57:54.

Well, yes, but I think it's up to the government,

:57:55.:57:57.

actually, to calm that down and to say to people, look,

:57:58.:58:01.

of course we will resolve this, there won't be a problem.

:58:02.:58:03.

Clearly if you're here and you're working in the NHS, you will

:58:04.:58:06.

be working in the NHS and are most welcome to do so.

:58:07.:58:09.

So, if you have the skills, we are very happy.

:58:10.:58:12.

I think it's the large unskilled swathes of population coming in that

:58:13.:58:14.

we simply cannot afford to have, we can't afford, because all of the

:58:15.:58:18.

cascading down onto society makes a tremendous

:58:19.:58:19.

burden, so, fairness, but

:58:20.:58:20.

let's take care of people that are from Europe that work here.

:58:21.:58:23.

OK, well, with opinions so mixed, Mark, how do you

:58:24.:58:27.

actually go about representing your constituents when you have such a

:58:28.:58:29.

mix of views and feelings about this?

:58:30.:58:31.

So, you have to do what's right, and what is right is getting

:58:32.:58:34.

the best deal for the United Kingdom...

:58:35.:58:36.

You can't represent them all, though.

:58:37.:58:37.

I think you clearly can't represent the more in

:58:38.:58:43.

I think you clearly can't represent them all in

:58:44.:58:45.

terms of Remain or Leave, but I think we need to recognise that

:58:46.:58:48.

Remain and Leave has gone now, we are leaving

:58:49.:58:50.

the European Union, that

:58:51.:58:51.

was the democratic will of the people,

:58:52.:58:53.

and so we need to get the

:58:54.:58:55.

best deal for the United Kingdom, we need to make sure our relationships

:58:56.:58:58.

with our European colleagues improve and continue to trade with them and

:58:59.:59:01.

look to the rest of the world and continue to build our economy so

:59:02.:59:04.

that the jobs and prosperity flow down to those people who are my

:59:05.:59:07.

And you supported Remain whilst your constituents

:59:08.:59:10.

wanted to Leave, so how do you square that circle?

:59:11.:59:12.

Well, you have to take democracy on the chin,

:59:13.:59:14.

frankly, and, you know, Leave won, so we now

:59:15.:59:17.

have to commit to that and

:59:18.:59:18.

deliver what we can for the United Kingdom,

:59:19.:59:20.

and that comes down to the

:59:21.:59:21.

best deal we possibly can squeeze out of our European colleagues.

:59:22.:59:24.

They want to trade with us as well, it's

:59:25.:59:26.

a two-way street, so let's get out there,

:59:27.:59:28.

in the rest of the world as

:59:29.:59:30.

well, and, you know, build the economy

:59:31.:59:32.

Well, that's the message here in the studio!

:59:33.:59:37.

Time now for a round-up of some of the other

:59:38.:59:39.

political stories from the

:59:40.:59:41.

Grantham's Accident Emergency unit is to remain

:59:42.:59:51.

closed overnight because of a shortage of doctors.

:59:52.:59:56.

Lincolnshire Hospitals Trust says it's committed

:59:57.:59:58.

to reopening the unit, and is looking to recruit staff.

:59:59.:00:00.

Campaigners have dismissed the plan to open the service for an extra

:00:01.:00:03.

Derby City Council is to set up a crowdfunding

:00:04.:00:07.

website to raise money for small community projects.

:00:08.:00:09.

The authority is to spend ?45,000 setting up a

:00:10.:00:14.

platform on the Crowdfunder website, and will invite local groups to list

:00:15.:00:17.

Meanwhile, Derbyshire County Council has announced plans to increase

:00:18.:00:21.

It will add ?46 a year to the average band D household bill.

:00:22.:00:29.

A drive to have more electric taxis in Nottingham has been

:00:30.:00:31.

Nottingham has some of the worst air pollution figures in the country.

:00:32.:00:37.

The council wants to see more low emission vehicles

:00:38.:00:39.

The plans will also include a new code of conduct for drivers

:00:40.:00:47.

And that is the Sunday Politics here in the East Midlands.

:00:48.:00:57.

Thanks to our guests this week, Mark Spencer

:00:58.:01:00.

and Margot Parker, for joining us here in the studio.

:01:01.:01:05.

After the excitement and late nights in the Commons last week,

:01:06.:01:16.

MPs are having a little break this week as we head into

:01:17.:01:19.

But there's still plenty in the diary in the near future -

:01:20.:01:23.

let's just remind ourselves of some key upcoming dates.

:01:24.:01:31.

There they are. We have the two by-elections on February 23rd. The

:01:32.:01:40.

budget is 8th March. That will be the last spring budget under this

:01:41.:01:44.

Government because it moves to the autumn.

:01:45.:01:58.

That round of French elections narrows the candidates, probably

:01:59.:02:04.

about eight or nine, down to two, the two who come first and second,

:02:05.:02:10.

then go into a play off round on May 7th. That will determine the next

:02:11.:02:17.

President. Steve, listening to Oliver Letwin and to the Labour

:02:18.:02:21.

leader in the House of Lords, is there any way you think that end of

:02:22.:02:24.

March deadline for Mrs May could be in jeopardy? No, I don't. Andrew

:02:25.:02:30.

Smith couldn't have been clearer with you they would do nothing to

:02:31.:02:35.

block not just Article 50 but that timetable, so I would be surprised

:02:36.:02:41.

if they don't make it. Given her, Theresa May's explicit determination

:02:42.:02:45.

to do so, not to do so would have become a problem for her, I think

:02:46.:02:50.

one way or another... No before this vote last week there was a vote nor

:02:51.:02:55.

the deadline, to agree the deadline by all sides. Plain sailing do you

:02:56.:03:00.

think? There is no serious Parliamentary resistance and it

:03:01.:03:02.

would be a personal embarrassment, I think for the Prime Minister to name

:03:03.:03:05.

the the end of March as the deadline and to miss it, unless she has a

:03:06.:03:12.

good excuse. I I reckon it will change the atmosphere of politics

:03:13.:03:16.

for the next two years, as soon as the negotiations begin, people in

:03:17.:03:19.

our profession will hunt for any detail and inside information we can

:03:20.:03:23.

find, thing also be leaked, I think from the European side from time to

:03:24.:03:27.

time, it will dominate the headlines for a solid two years and change

:03:28.:03:32.

politics. Let me just raise a possible, a dark cloud. No bigger

:03:33.:03:38.

than man's hand, that can complicate the timetable, because the Royal

:03:39.:03:41.

Assent on the current timetable has to come round the 13th. I would

:03:42.:03:47.

suggest that the Prime Minister can't trigger that until she does

:03:48.:03:51.

get the Royal Assent. If there is a bit of ping-pong that could delay

:03:52.:03:57.

that by receive day, the last thing the Europeans would want, they have

:03:58.:04:00.

another big meeting at the end of March which is the 60th anniversary

:04:01.:04:06.

of the Treaty of Rome. They don't want Article 50 to land on the

:04:07.:04:13.

table... It would infuriate everybody. My guess is she will have

:04:14.:04:18.

done it by then, this is between the Commons and the Lords, I mean Andrew

:04:19.:04:22.

Smith couldn't have been clearer, that they might send something back

:04:23.:04:28.

but they didn't expect a kind of a long play over this, so. The Liberal

:04:29.:04:33.

Democrats, they are almost an irrelevance in the Commons but not

:04:34.:04:38.

the Lords, they feel differently. Now, we don't know yet what the

:04:39.:04:43.

European Union negotiating position is going to be, we don't know

:04:44.:04:46.

because there are several crucial elections taking place, the Dutch

:04:47.:04:49.

taking place in March and then the one we put up, the French, and, at

:04:50.:04:54.

the moment, the French one is, it seems like it is coming down, to a

:04:55.:05:01.

play-off in the second round between Madame Le Pen who could come first

:05:02.:05:09.

in the first round and this Blairite figure, independent, centre-leftish

:05:10.:05:13.

Mr Macron, he may well get through and that, and the outcome of that

:05:14.:05:17.

will be an important determine napt on our negotiations. -- determinant.

:05:18.:05:22.

You o couldn't have two more different candidate, you have a

:05:23.:05:27.

national a front candidate and on the other hand the closest thing

:05:28.:05:31.

France could have you to a liberal President. With a small l. A

:05:32.:05:38.

reformist liberal President. It would be the most French thing in

:05:39.:05:43.

the world to elect someone who while the rest of the world is elected

:05:44.:05:50.

elitist, to elect someone who is the son of a teacher, who has liberal

:05:51.:05:56.

views, is a member of the French elite. It would be a thing for them

:05:57.:06:03.

to elect a man like that which I why I see them doing it. If it is Le

:06:04.:06:11.

Pen, Brexit becomes a minor sideshow, if it is Le Pen, the

:06:12.:06:15.

future of the European Union is? Danger, regardless of whether we are

:06:16.:06:23.

were in or out. I suggest if it is Mr Macron that presents some

:06:24.:06:26.

problems. He doesn't have his own party. He won't have a majority in

:06:27.:06:30.

the French assembly, he is untried and untested. He wants to do a

:06:31.:06:34.

number of things that will be unpopular which is why a number of

:06:35.:06:42.

people close to Mrs Le Pen tell me that she has her eye on 2022. She

:06:43.:06:49.

thinks lit go to hell in a hand basket under Mr Macron. He hasn't

:06:50.:06:55.

got the experience. What I find fascinating. It is not just all to

:06:56.:07:00.

play for in France, it is the fact what happens in France and Germany,

:07:01.:07:04.

not so much Holland I think but Germany later on in the year, how

:07:05.:07:11.

much it impacts what we are going to get. How much which ex #i78 panting

:07:12.:07:24.

on them. And at the time we are trying to, withdrawing ourself from

:07:25.:07:26.

European politics it is fascinating how much it will affect us. You see

:07:27.:07:30.

what Matthew was talking about earlier in the show, that what we do

:07:31.:07:36.

know, almost for sure, is that the socialist candidate will not get

:07:37.:07:39.

through to the second round. He could come firth but the

:07:40.:07:45.

centre-right candidate. If we were discussing that monthing a we would

:07:46.:07:48.

say it between teen the centre-right and the national fronts. We are to

:07:49.:07:53.

saying that. Matthew good win who spent a time in France isn't sure Le

:07:54.:07:58.

Pen will get into the second round, which is interesting. It is, I mean,

:07:59.:08:03.

it is going to be as important for the future of the European Union, as

:08:04.:08:10.

in retrospect the British 2015 general election was, if Labour had

:08:11.:08:13.

got in there would have been no referendum. That referendum has

:08:14.:08:16.

transformed the European Union because we are leaving and the

:08:17.:08:22.

French election is significant. We will be live from Paris on April

:08:23.:08:28.

23rd on the day France goings to the first round of polls. Tom Watson, he

:08:29.:08:33.

was on The Andrew Marr Show earlier today, was asked about Mr Corbyn,

:08:34.:08:34.

this is what he had to say. We had a damaging second leadership

:08:35.:08:39.

election, so we've got The polls aren't great for us,

:08:40.:08:43.

but I'm determined now we've got the leadership settled for this

:08:44.:08:47.

parliament, that we can focus on developing a very positive clear

:08:48.:08:49.

message to the British people So Julia, I don't know who are you

:08:50.:09:05.

are giggling. I find it untenable that, he is a very good media

:09:06.:09:10.

performer and he comes on and he is sitting there so well, you know,

:09:11.:09:14.

things are bad but don't worry we are looking at what we can do to win

:09:15.:09:18.

2020. The idea that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were sitting in their

:09:19.:09:24.

offices or on TV screens at this time in the electoral cycle thinking

:09:25.:09:28.

well I wonder if we can come up with a policy the British people might

:09:29.:09:33.

like. It is a nonsense, this is Tuesday night book zlufb. I am going

:09:34.:09:41.

to ask you the question I was going to before. I would suggest that he

:09:42.:09:48.

the right. The deputy Labour leader Tom Watson is violent the leadership

:09:49.:09:55.

is settled, with one caveat, unless the Corbynistas themselves to decide

:09:56.:09:59.

to move on Mr Corbyn, if the left of the Labour Party decides then it is

:10:00.:10:04.

not settled. Settled. If that doesn't happen that is That would be

:10:05.:10:08.

the worst situation if you are a Labour moderate. The Corbynistas

:10:09.:10:13.

would be saying the problem is no Corbynism, it is Corbyn himself, if

:10:14.:10:19.

we a younger person leading the process we can win the next general

:10:20.:10:24.

election, which means you have another itration of this, another

:10:25.:10:28.

five year experiment. And that is worst of all. If you are a Labour

:10:29.:10:36.

moderate, what you want is Jeremy Corbyn contest the next general

:10:37.:10:41.

election, possibly loses badly and then a Labour not moderate runs for

:10:42.:10:44.

the leadership saying we have tried your way, the worst would be Corbyn

:10:45.:10:49.

going, and a younger seven version of him trying and the experiment

:10:50.:10:54.

being extended. I see no easy way out of this. That is why he radiated

:10:55.:10:59.

the enthusiasm of someone in a hostage video in that interview.

:11:00.:11:04.

Maybe he has the Stockholm Syndrome now. The Labour moderates have had

:11:05.:11:11.

their day in the sun, two days in the sun and they lost. I suggest

:11:12.:11:14.

they are not going to try for the hat-trick again. Is there any

:11:15.:11:19.

indication that on the more Corbyn wing of the Labour Party, there is

:11:20.:11:26.

now doubts about their man. Yes, just to translate Tom Watson, what

:11:27.:11:31.

he meant was I Tom Watson am not going to get involved in another

:11:32.:11:37.

attempted coup. I tried it and it was a catastrophe. That is question

:11:38.:11:43.

enhe says it is set selled. It is because there is speculation on a

:11:44.:11:48.

daily basis. I disagree, Julia said I think this lot don't care about

:11:49.:11:54.

winning, I think they do. If the current position continue, one of

:11:55.:11:58.

two things will happen. Either Jeremy Corbyn will decide himself

:11:59.:12:02.

will decide he doesn't want to carry on. He half enjoys I it and half

:12:03.:12:09.

hates it. Finds it a strain. If that doesn't happen there will be some

:12:10.:12:13.

people round him who will say, look, this isn't working. There is another

:12:14.:12:19.

three-and-a-half years. There is a long way to go. I can't see it

:12:20.:12:25.

lasting in this way with politics in a state of flux, Tories will be

:12:26.:12:30.

under pressure in the coming two years, to have opinion polls at this

:12:31.:12:35.

level, I think is unsustainable. Final thought from you.? Yes, the

:12:36.:12:39.

idea it St another three-and-a-half years is just madness, but the

:12:40.:12:43.

people we are putting up at replacement for Jeremy Corbyn, and

:12:44.:12:49.

they have been focus grouping them. Most members wouldn't know who most

:12:50.:12:53.

of people were let alone most of the public.

:12:54.:12:57.

Angela rain? They are not overwhelmed with leadership

:12:58.:13:04.

potential at the moment. Very diplomatically put. Neither are the

:13:05.:13:08.

Tories, but they happened to have one at the moment. All right. That

:13:09.:13:10.

is it. Now, there's no Daily

:13:11.:13:13.

or Sunday Politics for the next week But the Daily Politics will be back

:13:14.:13:16.

on Monday 20th February and I'll be back here with the Sunday Politics

:13:17.:13:20.

on the 26th. Remember if it's Sunday,

:13:21.:13:24.

it's the Sunday Politics... Just back from

:13:25.:13:26.

a very long shift at work... The staff are losing -

:13:27.:14:08.

they're just giving in. Panorama goes undercover

:14:09.:14:14.

to reveal the real cost

:14:15.:14:20.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS