12/03/2017 Sunday Politics East Midlands


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12/03/2017

Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew discusses the Brexit bill with UKIP's Nigel Farage and Conservative MP Anna Soubry.


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:34.:00:38.

David Davis tells MPs to leave the Brexit bill untouched,

:00:39.:00:42.

ahead of a week which could see Britain begin the process

:00:43.:00:45.

We'll talk to a Tory rebel and Ukip's Nigel Farage.

:00:46.:00:50.

Phillip Hammond's first budget hit the rocks thanks to a tax rise

:00:51.:00:53.

But how should we tax those who work for themselves?

:00:54.:01:01.

And remember Donald Trump's claim that Barack Obama had ordered

:01:02.:01:03.

We'll talk to the former Tory MP who set the whole story rolling.

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In the deed to kick-start the East Midlands

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And joining me for all of that, three self-employed journalists

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who definitely don't deserve a tax break.

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It's Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer

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They'll be tweeting throughout the programme with all the carefree

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abandon of Katie Hopkins before a libel trial.

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BBC lawyers have suddenly got nervous!

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So first today, the government is gearing up to trigger Article 50,

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perhaps in the next 48 hours, and start negotiating Britain's

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Much has been written about the prospect of the Commons

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getting a "meaningful vote" on the deal Britain negotiates.

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Brexit Secretary David Davis was on the Andrew Marr programme

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earlier this morning and he was asked what happens

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Well, that is what is called the most favoured nation status deal

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There we go out, as it were, on WTO rules.

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That is why of course we do the contingency planning, to make

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The British people decided on June the 23rd last year

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My job, and the job of the government, is to make

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the terms on which that happens as beneficial as possible.

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There we have it, clearly, either Parliament votes for the deal when

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it is done or it out on World Trade Organisation rules. That's what the

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government means by a meaningful vote.

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I think we get over obsessed about whether there will be a legal right

:03:01.:03:07.

for Parliament to have a vote. If there is no deal or a bad deal, I

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think it would be politically impossible for the government to

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reject Parliament's desire for a vote because the atmosphere of

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politics will be completely different by then. I take David

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Davies seriously. Within Whitehall he has acquired a reputation as

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being the most conscientious and details sadly... And well briefed.

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Absolutely and well travelled in terms of European capitals of the

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three Brexit ministers. It is quite telling he said what he did and it

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is quite telling that within cabinet, two weeks ago he was

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floating the idea of no deal at all. Being if not the central estimate

:03:41.:03:44.

than a completely plausible eventuality. It is interesting. I

:03:45.:03:48.

would suggest the prospect of no deal is moving up the agenda. It is

:03:49.:03:53.

still less likely than more likely to happen. But it's no longer a kind

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of long tail way out there in the distance. Planning for no deal is

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the same as having contents insurance or travel insurance, plan

:04:03.:04:04.

for the worse case scenarios are prepared it happens. Even the worst

:04:05.:04:08.

case scenario, it's not that bad. Think of the Jeep 20, apart from the

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EU, four members of the G20 economies are successful members of

:04:14.:04:18.

the EU. The rest aren't and don't have trade deals but somehow these

:04:19.:04:21.

countries are prospering. They are growing at a higher rate. You are

:04:22.:04:26.

not frightened? Not remotely. We are obsessed with what we get from the

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EU and the key thing we get from leaving the EU is not the deal but

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the other deals we can finally make with other trading partners. They

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have higher growth than virtually every other EU country apart from

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Germany. It is sensible as a negotiating position for the

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government to say if there is no deal, we will accept there is no

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deal. We're not frightened of no deal. It was clear from what David

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Davies was saying that there will be a vote in parliament at the end of

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the process but there won't be a third option to send the government

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back to try to get a better deal. It is either the deal or we leave

:05:02.:05:05.

without a deal. In reality, that third option will be there. We don't

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know yet whether there will be a majority for the deal if they get

:05:10.:05:14.

one. What we do know now is that there isn't a majority in the

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Commons for no deal. Labour MPs are absolutely clear that no deal is

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worth then a bad deal. I've heard enough Tory MPs say the same thing.

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But they wouldn't get no deal through. When it comes to this vote,

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if whatever deal is rejected, there will then be, one way or another,

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the third option raised of go back again. But who gets to decide what

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is a bad deal? The British people will have a different idea than the

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two thirds of the Remain supporting MPs in the Commons. In terms of the

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vote, the Commons. Surely, if the Commons, which is what matters here,

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if the Commons were to vote against the deal as negotiated by the

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government, surely that would trigger a general election? If the

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government had recommended the deal, surely the government would then, if

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it still felt strongly about the deal, if the other 27 had said,

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we're not negotiating, extending it, it would in effect become a second

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referendum on the deal. In effect it would be a no-confidence vote in the

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government. You've got to assume that unless something massively

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changes in the opposition before then, the government would feel

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fairly confident about a general election on those terms. Unless the

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deal is hideously bad and obviously basso every vote in the country...

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The prior minister said if it is that bad she would have rather no

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deal. So that eventuality arrives. -- the Prime Minister has said. Not

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a second referendum general election in two years' time. Don't put any

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holidays for! LAUGHTER -- don't look any.

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So the Brexit bill looks likely to clear Parliament this week.

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That depends on the number of Conservative MPs who are prepared

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to vote against their government on two key issues.

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Theresa May could be in negotiations with our European

:07:07.:07:10.

partners within days, but there may be some

:07:11.:07:12.

wheeler-dealings she has to do with her own MPs, too.

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Cast your mind back to the beginning of month.

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The bill to trigger Article 50 passed comfortably

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But three Conservatives voted for Labour's amendments to ensure

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the rights of EU citizens already in the UK.

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Seven Tory MPs voted to force the government to give Parliament

:07:34.:07:36.

a say on the deal struck with the EU before it's finalised.

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But remember those numbers, they're important.

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On the issue of a meaningful vote on a deal, I'm told there might have

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been more rebels had it not been for this assurance from

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I can confirm that the government will bring forward a motion

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on the final agreement to be approved by both Houses

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And we expect, and intend, that this will happen before

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the European Parliament debates and votes on the final agreement.

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When the government was criticised for reeling back

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from when and what it would offer a vote on.

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The bill then moved into the Lords, where peers passed it

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And the second, that Parliament be given a meaningful vote on the terms

:08:23.:08:30.

of the deal or indeed a vote in the event of there

:08:31.:08:33.

The so-called Brexit bill will return to Commons

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Ministers insist that both amendments would weaken

:08:38.:08:41.

the government's negotiating hand and are seeking to overturn them.

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But, as ever, politics is a numbers game.

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Theresa May has a working majority of 17.

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On Brexit, though, it's probably higher.

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At least six Labour MPs generally vote with

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Plus, eight DUP MPs, two from the Ulster Unionist party

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If all Conservatives vote with the government as well,

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Therefore, 26 Conservative rebels are needed for the government to be

:09:09.:09:14.

So, are there rough waters ahead for Theresa May?

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What numbers are we looking at, in terms of a potential rebellion?

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I think we're looking at a large number of people who are interested

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This building is a really important building.

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It's symbolic of a huge amount of history.

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And for it not to be involved in this momentous time would,

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But he says a clear verbal statement from the government on a meaningful

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vote on any deal would be enough to get most Tory MPs onside.

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It was already said about David Jones.

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It's slightly unravelled a little bit during

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I think this is an opportunity to really get that clarity

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through so that we can all vote for Article 50 and get

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We've have spoken to several Tory MPs who say they are minded to vote

:10:01.:10:04.

One said the situation was sad and depressing.

:10:05.:10:08.

The other said that the whips must be worried because they don't

:10:09.:10:11.

A minister told me Downing Street was looking again at the possibility

:10:12.:10:18.

of offering a vote in the event of no deal being reached.

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But that its position was unlikely to change.

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And, anyway, government sources have told the Sunday Politics they're not

:10:25.:10:27.

That those Tory MPs who didn't back either amendment the first time

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round would look silly if they did, this time.

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It would have to be a pretty hefty lot of people changing their minds

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about things that have already been discussed in quite a lot of detail,

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last time it was in the Commons, for things to be reversed this time.

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There's no doubt that a number of Tory MPs are very concerned.

:10:49.:10:51.

Labour are pessimistic about the chances of enough Tory

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rebels backing either of the amendments in the Commons.

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The important thing, I think, is to focus on the fact

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that this is the last chance to have a say on this.

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If they're going to vote with us, Monday is the time to do it.

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Assuming the bill does pass the Commons unamended,

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it will go back to the Lord's on Monday night where Labour peers

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have already indicated they won't block it again.

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It means that the Brexit bill would become law and Theresa May

:11:16.:11:18.

would be free to trigger Article 50 within days.

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Her own deadline was the end of this month.

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But one minister told me there were advantages to doing it early.

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We're joined now from Nottingham by the Conservative MP Anna Soubry.

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She's previously voted against the government on the question

:11:34.:11:35.

of whether Parliament should have a final say over the EU deal.

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Anna Soubry, I think it was clear this morning from David Davies that

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what he means by meaningful vote is not what you mean by a meaningful

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vote. He thinks the choice for Parliament would be to either vote

:11:52.:11:56.

for the deal and if Parliament doesn't, we leave on World Trade

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Organisation rules, on a bare-bones structure. In the end, will he

:12:01.:12:06.

accept that in the Commons tomorrow? No, because my problem and I don't

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think it is a problem, but my problem, the government's problem is

:12:11.:12:14.

that what I want is then to answer this question. What happens in the

:12:15.:12:18.

event of their not being any deal? David Davies made it very clear that

:12:19.:12:23.

in the event of there being no deal, Parliament would have no say. It

:12:24.:12:27.

means through your elected representatives, the people of this

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country would have no say on what happens if the government doesn't

:12:32.:12:36.

get a deal. I think the request that Parliament should have a say on

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Parliamentary sovereignty, is perfectly reasonable. That is what I

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want David to say. If he says that, I won't be rebelling. If he does...

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They have refused to say that. Sorry. If he continues to say what

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he said the BBC this morning, which means that the vote will be either

:12:55.:13:00.

to accept the as negotiated or to leave on WTO rules, will you rebel

:13:01.:13:06.

on that question but no, no, sorry, if there's a deal, Parliament will

:13:07.:13:11.

have a say. So that's fine. And we will see what the deal is and we

:13:12.:13:14.

will look at the options two years down the road. When who knows

:13:15.:13:18.

what'll happen in our economy and world economy. That is one matter

:13:19.:13:22.

which I am content on. The Prime Minister, a woman of her word has

:13:23.:13:26.

said that in the event of a deal, Parliament will vote on any deal. I

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don't difficulty. To clarify, I will come onto that. These are important

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matters. I want to clarify, not argue with you. You are content that

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if there is a deal, we will come under no deal in a second, but if

:13:40.:13:43.

there is a deal, you are content with the choice of being able to

:13:44.:13:50.

vote for that deal or leaving on WTO terms? No, you're speculating as to

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what might happen in two years' time. What the options might be.

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Personally I find it inconceivable that the government will come back

:13:59.:14:01.

with a rubbish deal. They will either come back with a good deal,

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which I won't have a problem with or they will come back with no deal. To

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speculate about coming back with a deal, there is a variety of options.

:14:10.:14:14.

I understand that that is what the Lord amendments are about. They are

:14:15.:14:17.

about a vote at the end of the process. Do forgive me, the Lords

:14:18.:14:25.

amendment is not the same that I've voted for in Parliament. What we

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call the Chris Leslie amendment, which was talking about whatever the

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agreement is, whatever happens at the end of the negotiations,

:14:31.:14:33.

Parliament will have a vote. Parliament will have a say. The

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Lords amendment is a bit more technical. It is the principle of no

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deal that is agitating us. Let's clarify on this. They are

:14:43.:14:46.

complicated matters. What do you want the government to say? What do

:14:47.:14:50.

you want David Davis to say tomorrow on what should the Parliamentary

:14:51.:14:55.

process should be if there is no deal? Quite. I want a commitment

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from him that in the event of no deal, it will come into Parliament

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and Parliament will determine what happens next. It could be that in

:15:04.:15:10.

the event of no deal, the best thing is for us to jump off the cliff into

:15:11.:15:14.

WTO tariff is. I find it unlikely but that might be the reality. There

:15:15.:15:17.

might be other alternatives. Most importantly, including saying to the

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government, go back, carry on. The question that everybody has to ask

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is, why won't the government give My fear is what this is about is

:15:25.:15:35.

asked deliberately, not the Prime Minister, but others deliberately

:15:36.:15:40.

ensuring we have no deal and no deal pretty soon and in that event, we

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jumped off the cliff onto WTO tariffs and nobody in this country

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and the people of this country do not have a say. My constituents did

:15:51.:15:56.

not vote for hard Brexit. You do not want the government to

:15:57.:16:00.

have the ability if there is no deal to automatically fall back on the

:16:01.:16:07.

WTO rules? Quite. It is as simple as that. We are now speculating about

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what will happen in two years. I want to find out what happens

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tomorrow. What will you do if you don't get that assurance? I will

:16:18.:16:22.

either abstain, or I will vote to keep this amendment within the Bill.

:16:23.:16:26.

I will either vote against my government, which I do not do

:16:27.:16:31.

likely, I have never voted against my government until the Chris Leslie

:16:32.:16:34.

clause when the Bill was going through, or I will abstain, which

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has pretty much the same effect because it comes into the Commons

:16:39.:16:42.

with both amendments so you have positively to vote to take the map.

:16:43.:16:48.

Can you give us an idea of how many like-minded conservative colleagues

:16:49.:16:53.

there are. I genuinely do not know. You must talk to each other. I do

:16:54.:16:59.

not talk to every member of my party. You know people who are

:17:00.:17:06.

like-minded. I do. I am not doing numbers games. I know you want that

:17:07.:17:10.

but I genuinely do not know the figure. I think this is an

:17:11.:17:16.

uncomfortable truth. People have to understand what has happened in our

:17:17.:17:22.

country, two particular newspapers, creating an atmosphere and setting

:17:23.:17:26.

an agenda and I think many people are rather concerned, some

:17:27.:17:29.

frightened, to put their head over the parapet. There are many millions

:17:30.:17:35.

of people who feel totally excluded from this process. Many of them

:17:36.:17:40.

voted to remain. And they have lost their voice. We have covered the

:17:41.:17:43.

ground I wanted to. We're joined now by the Ukip MEP

:17:44.:17:45.

and former leader Nigel Farage. Article 50 triggered, we are leaving

:17:46.:17:57.

the EU, the single market and the customs union. What is left you to

:17:58.:18:01.

complain about? All of that will happen and hopefully we will get the

:18:02.:18:05.

triggered this week which is good news. What worries me a little I'm

:18:06.:18:09.

not sure the government recognises how strong their handers. At the

:18:10.:18:14.

summit in Brussels, the word in the corridors is that we are prepared to

:18:15.:18:17.

give away fishing waters as a bargaining chip and the worry is

:18:18.:18:22.

what deal we get. Are we leaving, yes I am pleased about that. You are

:18:23.:18:26.

under relevant voice in the deal because the deal will be voted on in

:18:27.:18:31.

Parliament and you have one MP. You are missing the point, the real vote

:18:32.:18:36.

in parliament is not in London but Strasbourg. This is perhaps the

:18:37.:18:40.

biggest obstacle the British Government faces. Not what happens

:18:41.:18:44.

in the Commons that the end of the two years, the European Parliament

:18:45.:18:49.

could veto the deal. What that means is people need to adopt a different

:18:50.:18:54.

approach. We do not need to be lobbying in the corridors of

:18:55.:18:56.

Brussels to get a good deal, we need is a country to be out there talking

:18:57.:19:02.

to the German car workers and Belgian chocolate makers, putting as

:19:03.:19:06.

much pressure as we can on politicians from across Europe to

:19:07.:19:10.

come to a sensible arrangement. It is in their interests more than

:19:11.:19:15.

ours. In what way is the vision of Brexit set out by David Davis any

:19:16.:19:22.

different from your own? I am delighted there are people now

:19:23.:19:25.

adopting the position I argued for many years. Good. But now... Like

:19:26.:19:33.

Douglas Carswell, he said he found David Davis' performers this morning

:19:34.:19:39.

reassuring. It is. And just as when Theresa May was Home Secretary every

:19:40.:19:44.

performance she gave was hugely reassuring. She was seen to be a

:19:45.:19:47.

heroine after her conference speeches and then did not deliver. I

:19:48.:19:54.

am concerned that even before we start we are making concessions. You

:19:55.:20:00.

described in the EU's divorce bill demands, 60 billion euros is floated

:20:01.:20:04.

around. You said it is laughable and I understand that. Do you maintain

:20:05.:20:10.

that we will not have to pay a penny to leave? It is nine months since we

:20:11.:20:18.

voted exit and assuming the trigger of Article 50, we would have paid 30

:20:19.:20:24.

billion in since we had a vote. We are still members. But honestly, I

:20:25.:20:28.

do not think there is an appetite for us to pay a massive divorce

:20:29.:20:32.

Bill. There are assets also. Not a penny? There will be some ongoing

:20:33.:20:40.

commitments, but the numbers talked about our 50, ?60 billion, they are

:20:41.:20:46.

frankly laughable. I am trying to find out if you are prepared to

:20:47.:20:51.

accept some kind of exit cost, it may be nowhere near 60 billion. We

:20:52.:20:56.

have to do a net agreement, the government briefed about our share

:20:57.:20:58.

of the European Union investment bank. Would you accept a

:20:59.:21:05.

transitional arrangement, deal, five, ten billion, as part of the

:21:06.:21:10.

divorce settlement? We are painted net ?30 million every single day at

:21:11.:21:15.

the moment, ?10 billion plus every year. That is just our contribution.

:21:16.:21:20.

We are going to make a massive saving on this. What do you make of

:21:21.:21:27.

what Anna Soubry said, that if there is no deal, and it is being talked

:21:28.:21:32.

about more. Maybe the government managing expectations. There is an

:21:33.:21:36.

expectation we will have a deal, but if there is no deal, that the

:21:37.:21:41.

government cannot just go to WTO rules, but it has to have a vote in

:21:42.:21:46.

parliament? By the time we get to that there will be a general

:21:47.:21:49.

election coming down the tracks and I suspect that if at the end of the

:21:50.:21:55.

two-year process there is no deal and by the way, no deal is a lot

:21:56.:21:59.

better for the nation than where we currently are, because we freed of

:22:00.:22:04.

regulations and able to make our own deals in the world. I think what

:22:05.:22:07.

would happen, and if Parliament said it did not back, at the end of the

:22:08.:22:14.

negotiation a general election would happen quickly. According to reports

:22:15.:22:21.

this morning, one of your most senior aides has passed a dossier to

:22:22.:22:26.

police claiming Tories committed electoral fraud in Thanet South, the

:22:27.:22:30.

seat contested in the election. What evidence to you have? I read that in

:22:31.:22:36.

the newspapers as you have. I am not going to comment on it. Will you not

:22:37.:22:39.

aware of the contents of the dossier? I am not aware of the

:22:40.:22:46.

dossier. He was your election strategists. I am dubious as to

:22:47.:22:52.

whether this dossier exists at all. Perhaps the newspapers have got this

:22:53.:22:57.

wrong. Concerns about the downloading of data the took place

:22:58.:23:05.

in that constituency, there are. Allegedly, he has refuted it, was it

:23:06.:23:12.

done by your MP to give information to the Tories, do you have evidence

:23:13.:23:17.

about? We have evidence Mr Carswell downloaded information, we have no

:23:18.:23:24.

evidence what he did with it. It is not just your aide who has been

:23:25.:23:28.

making allegations against the Conservatives in Thanet South and

:23:29.:23:34.

other seats, if the evidence was to be substantial, and if it was to

:23:35.:23:41.

result in another by-election being called an Thanet South had to be

:23:42.:23:45.

fought again, would you be the Ukip candidate? I probably would. You

:23:46.:23:50.

probably would? Yes. Just probably? Just probably. It would be your

:23:51.:23:56.

eighth attempt. Winning seats in parliament under first past the post

:23:57.:24:00.

is not the only way to change politics in Britain and I would like

:24:01.:24:02.

to think I proved that. Let's go back to Anna Soubry. The implication

:24:03.:24:09.

of what we were saying on the panel at the start of the show and what

:24:10.:24:13.

Nigel Farage was saying there would be that if at the end of the process

:24:14.:24:18.

whatever the vote, if the government were to lose it, it would provoke a

:24:19.:24:22.

general election properly. I think that would be right. Let's get real.

:24:23.:24:27.

The government is not going to come to Parliament with anything other

:24:28.:24:31.

than something it believes is a good deal and if it rejected it, would be

:24:32.:24:39.

unlikely, there would be a de facto vote of no confidence and it would

:24:40.:24:43.

be within the fixed term Parliaments act and that be it. The problem is,

:24:44.:24:48.

more likely, because of the story put up about the 50 billion, 60

:24:49.:24:54.

billion and you look at the way things are flagged up that both the

:24:55.:24:57.

Prime Minister and Boris Johnson saying, we should be asking them for

:24:58.:25:02.

money back, I think the big fear and the fear I have is we will be

:25:03.:25:07.

crashing out in six months. You think we could leave as quickly as

:25:08.:25:12.

six months. Explain that. I think they will stoke up the demand from

:25:13.:25:18.

the EU for 50, 60 billion back and my real concern is that within six

:25:19.:25:22.

months, where we're not making much progress, maybe nine months, and

:25:23.:25:27.

people are getting increasingly fed up with the EU because they are told

:25:28.:25:31.

it wants unreasonable demands, and then the crash. I think what is

:25:32.:25:35.

happening is the government is putting in place scaffolding at the

:25:36.:25:40.

bottom of the cliff to break our fall when we come to fall off that

:25:41.:25:45.

cliff and I think many in government are preparing not for a two-year

:25:46.:25:50.

process, but six, to nine months, off the cliff, out we go. That is my

:25:51.:25:56.

fear. That is interesting. I have not heard that express before by

:25:57.:26:00.

someone in your position. I suspect you have made Nigel Farage's date.

:26:01.:26:07.

It is a lovely thought. I would say to Anna Soubry she is out of date

:26:08.:26:13.

with this. 40 years ago there was a good argument for joining the common

:26:14.:26:16.

market because tariffs around the world was so high. That has changed

:26:17.:26:21.

with the World Trade Organisation. We are leaving the EU and rejoining

:26:22.:26:25.

a great big world and it is exciting. She was giving an

:26:26.:26:34.

interesting perspective on what could happen in nine months rather

:26:35.:26:35.

than two years. I thank you both. It was Philip Hammond's first

:26:36.:26:40.

budget on Wednesday - billed as a steady-as-she-goes

:26:41.:26:42.

affair, but turned out to cause uproar after the Chancellor appeared

:26:43.:26:48.

to contradict a Tory manifesto commitment with an increase

:26:49.:26:50.

in national insurance contributions. The aim was to address what some see

:26:51.:26:52.

as an imbalance in the tax system, where employees pay

:26:53.:27:01.

more National Insurance The controversy centres

:27:02.:27:03.

on increasing the so-called class 4 rate for the self-employed who make

:27:04.:27:06.

a profit of more than ?8,060 a year. It will go up in stages

:27:07.:27:09.

from 9% to 11% in 2019. The changes mean that over one

:27:10.:27:16.

and a half million will pay on average ?240 a year

:27:17.:27:20.

more in contributions. Some Conservative MPs were unhappy,

:27:21.:27:24.

with even the Wales Minister saying: "I will apologise to every

:27:25.:27:30.

voter in Wales that read the Conservative manifesto

:27:31.:27:33.

in the 2015 election." The Sun labelled Philip

:27:34.:27:34.

Hammond "spite van man". The Daily Mail called the budget

:27:35.:27:40.

"no laughing matter". By Thursday, Theresa May

:27:41.:27:43.

said the government One of the first things I did

:27:44.:27:45.

as Prime Minister was to commission Matthew Taylor to review the rights

:27:46.:27:51.

and protections that were available to self-employed workers

:27:52.:27:55.

and whether they should be enhanced. People will be able to look

:27:56.:27:58.

at the government paper when we produce it, showing

:27:59.:28:00.

all our changes, and take And, of course, the Chancellor will

:28:01.:28:03.

be speaking, as will his ministers, to MPs, businesspeople and others

:28:04.:28:08.

to listen to the concerns. Well, the man you heard mentioned

:28:09.:28:12.

there, Matthew Taylor, has the job of producing

:28:13.:28:14.

a report into the future Welcome. The Chancellor has decided

:28:15.:28:28.

the self-employed should pay almost the same in National Insurance, not

:28:29.:28:32.

the same but almost, as the employed will stop what is left of your

:28:33.:28:37.

commission? The commission has a broader frame of reference and we

:28:38.:28:41.

are interested in the quality of work in the economy at the heart of

:28:42.:28:47.

what I hope will be proposing is a set of shifts that will improve the

:28:48.:28:52.

quality of that work so we have an economy where all work is fair and

:28:53.:28:56.

decent and all jobs give people scope for development and

:28:57.:28:59.

fulfilment. The issue of taxes a small part. You will cover that? We

:29:00.:29:08.

will, because the tax system and employment regulation system drive

:29:09.:29:10.

particular behaviours in our labour market. You approve I think of the

:29:11.:29:17.

general direction of this policy of raising National Insurance on the

:29:18.:29:22.

self-employed. Taxing them in return perhaps for more state benefits. Why

:29:23.:29:27.

are so many others on the left against it from Tim Farron to John

:29:28.:29:31.

McDonnell? Tax rises are unpopular and it is the role of the opposition

:29:32.:29:36.

parties to make capital from unpopular tax rises. I think as tax

:29:37.:29:40.

rises go this is broadly progressive. There are self-employed

:29:41.:29:44.

people on low incomes and they will be better off. It is economic league

:29:45.:29:49.

rational because the reason for the difference in National Insurance --

:29:50.:29:52.

economically. It was to do with state entitlements. The government

:29:53.:29:57.

is consulting about paid parental leave. A series of governments have

:29:58.:30:02.

not been good about thinking about medium sustainability of the tax

:30:03.:30:07.

base. Self-employment is growing. But it is eroding the tax base. It

:30:08.:30:11.

is important to address those issues. A number of think tanks have

:30:12.:30:18.

said this is a progressive move. Yet, a number of left-wing

:30:19.:30:23.

politicians have been against it. And a number of Tories have said

:30:24.:30:29.

this is a progressive move and not a Tory government move, the balance of

:30:30.:30:32.

you will pay more tax, but you will get more state benefits is not a

:30:33.:30:37.

Tory approach to things. That a Tory approach will be you will pay less

:30:38.:30:41.

tax but entitled to fewer benefits as well.

:30:42.:30:44.

I preferred in and policies to politics -- I prefer policies. When

:30:45.:30:54.

people look at the policy and when they look the fact that there is no

:30:55.:30:58.

real historical basis for that big national insurance differential,

:30:59.:31:00.

they see it is a sensible policy. I don't have to deal with the

:31:01.:31:05.

politics. There has been a huge growth in self-employment from the

:31:06.:31:08.

turn of the millennium. It's been strongest amongst older workers,

:31:09.:31:10.

women part-timers. Do you have any idea, do you have

:31:11.:31:18.

the data in your commission that could tell us how many are taking

:31:19.:31:22.

self-employment because they like the flexibility and they like the

:31:23.:31:26.

tax advantages that come with it, too, or they are being forced into

:31:27.:31:31.

it by employers who don't want the extra costs of employment? Do we

:31:32.:31:36.

know the difference? We do, broadly. Most surveys on self-employment and

:31:37.:31:42.

flexible forms of employment suggest about two thirds to three quarters

:31:43.:31:45.

enjoy it, they like the flexibility, they like the autonomy and about a

:31:46.:31:49.

third to one quarter are less happy. That tends to be because they would

:31:50.:31:54.

like to have a full-time permanent job. It is not necessary that they

:31:55.:31:56.

don't enjoy what they are doing, they would like to do other things.

:31:57.:32:01.

And some of the protections that come with it? Yes. There are some

:32:02.:32:05.

people who are forced into southern employees by high-risk but also some

:32:06.:32:08.

people feel like they can't get a proper job as it were. --

:32:09.:32:13.

self-employment by people who hire them. It is on the narrow matter of

:32:14.:32:19.

tax revenues but if you are employed on ?32,000 the state will take over

:32:20.:32:23.

?6,000 in national insurance contributions, that is quite chunky.

:32:24.:32:27.

If you are self-employed it is ?2300. But the big difference

:32:28.:32:31.

between those figures isn't what the employee is paying, it's the

:32:32.:32:38.

employer's contributions up to almost 14%, and cupped for as much

:32:39.:32:42.

as you are paid. What do you do about employers' contributions for

:32:43.:32:51.

the self employed? -- it is uncapped for as much. What I recommend is

:32:52.:32:55.

that we should probably move from taxing employment to taxing labour.

:32:56.:32:59.

We should probably have a more level playing field so it doesn't really

:33:00.:33:03.

matter... Explained that I thought it was the same thing. If you are a

:33:04.:33:07.

self-employed gardener, you are a different tax regime to a gardener

:33:08.:33:11.

who works for a gardening firm. On the individual side and on the firm

:33:12.:33:20.

side. As we see new business models, so-called gig working, partly with

:33:21.:33:23.

technology, we need a more level playing field saying that we're

:33:24.:33:28.

taxing people's work, not the form in which they deliver that. That is

:33:29.:33:32.

part of the reason we have seen the growth of particular business

:33:33.:33:34.

models. They are innovative and creative and partly driven by the

:33:35.:33:40.

fact that if you can describe yourself as self-employed there are

:33:41.:33:44.

tax advantages. Coming out in June? Will you come back and talk to us?

:33:45.:33:46.

Yes. We say goodbye to viewers

:33:47.:33:48.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,

:33:49.:33:53.

we'll be talking to the former Tory MP who was the root

:33:54.:33:58.

of Donald Trump's allegation In the East Midlands: There's

:33:59.:34:11.

a boost for the region Spreadsheet Phil unveils his plans

:34:12.:34:13.

to kick start the Midlands Engine, with thousands of jobs

:34:14.:34:18.

and billions invested. I know that the East Midlands is a

:34:19.:34:31.

powerhouse of small business across these midlands, Nottingham,

:34:32.:34:34.

Leicester, huge centres of successful entrepreneurial small

:34:35.:34:37.

businesses and we are backing them all the way.

:34:38.:34:39.

And an overhaul of qualifications, will the new T levels give

:34:40.:34:42.

students the work skills to boost our economy?

:34:43.:34:44.

Last year I went on site and I wasn't confident at all doing what I

:34:45.:34:52.

was doing but now there is a split and I'm learning and working it has

:34:53.:34:56.

definitely boosted my confidence. My guests this week,

:34:57.:35:00.

Heather Wheeler is the Conservative MP for South Derbyshire

:35:01.:35:03.

and Lilian Greenwood is Labour's MP Welcome. Understandably, the Budget

:35:04.:35:10.

news. Heather, you cannot be feeling news. Heather, you cannot be feeling

:35:11.:35:16.

too comfortable at the backlash to your back's party's changes to

:35:17.:35:24.

self-insurance. There are two fax to that. One is

:35:25.:35:27.

that it is a separate peace to the budgets of it is not voted on when

:35:28.:35:31.

we vote on the Budget, it is noted in the autumn and the rhythmic in

:35:32.:35:36.

between there is a consultation so many fears will be allayed in the

:35:37.:35:38.

consultation before the autumn. consultation before the autumn.

:35:39.:35:41.

So it might not happen? It is not popular. Their fears will

:35:42.:35:46.

be allayed because there has been a lot of nonsense over this. 60% of

:35:47.:35:50.

people who are stubborn pride will not be any worse off whatsoever. And

:35:51.:35:55.

it is amazing how that figure has not been brought up by the media.

:35:56.:36:05.

Ultimately, if the rich pay the rich pay.

:36:06.:36:07.

It is about fairness. If your figures are about 40% will be worse

:36:08.:36:09.

off. If you are earning more than

:36:10.:36:16.

?100,000 you can afford it. Heather is putting a very kind gloss

:36:17.:36:21.

on what has been an absolute disaster for the Chancellor and the

:36:22.:36:25.

Government. They promised in their manifesto just 18 months ago, that

:36:26.:36:30.

they were not going to increase national insurance contributions and

:36:31.:36:33.

now hard-working self-employed people start ups, people running

:36:34.:36:37.

small businesses are finding that they are going to see an increase in

:36:38.:36:39.

the national insurance contributions.

:36:40.:36:43.

Many would say it seems to make sense to equalise national Insurance

:36:44.:36:45.

contributions. As I say, people are seeing a broken

:36:46.:36:51.

promise from this Tory Government. And it comes in... You did not say

:36:52.:36:57.

any of that eight months ago. Jeremy Corbyn did not say that.

:36:58.:37:01.

In the last election campaign when reporters from the Tory party saying

:37:02.:37:05.

that Ed Miliband was going to be dug National Insurance contribution due

:37:06.:37:07.

promise not to put up national insurance contributions that is

:37:08.:37:11.

precisely what you have done. USA your party agrees that is the

:37:12.:37:14.

hardest thing for people to swallow is a broken promise.

:37:15.:37:18.

This change is coming at a low level there are going to hit people in

:37:19.:37:21.

changes that they were not expecting pass money has been given away in in

:37:22.:37:26.

changes to inheritance tax, corporation tax, this is a choice

:37:27.:37:29.

that this Government are making and you can see how unpopular it is

:37:30.:37:32.

proving. Clearly I do not agree. Since the

:37:33.:37:36.

election apart from anything else we've got the referendum and we got

:37:37.:37:40.

Brexit, things change. But more than that we passed a new act since the

:37:41.:37:45.

18 months of the election and national insurance contributions

:37:46.:37:45.

change then, national insurance and change then, national insurance and

:37:46.:37:50.

abuse and is changing now. So nobody screamed and squealed then.

:37:51.:37:59.

The Chancellor took time off from the row over National Insurance

:38:00.:38:03.

to finally kick start the Midlands Engine.

:38:04.:38:04.

After years of playing second fiddle to the Northern Powerhouse,

:38:05.:38:07.

Phillip Hammond announced the region would get almost ?400 million

:38:08.:38:09.

for the project which is aiming to create 300,000 jobs.

:38:10.:38:12.

And he wasn't the only one handing out the cash -

:38:13.:38:14.

government ministers flocked to the region to announce big hand

:38:15.:38:17.

Here's our Political Editor Tony Roe.

:38:18.:38:23.

The Chancellor is known as spreadsheet fell because of his love

:38:24.:38:28.

of planning. This wiki unveils some big plans for the Midlands. Top of

:38:29.:38:32.

his agenda, heated to the stage in Dudley to formally launch the

:38:33.:38:37.

Midlands engine with the promise of ?392 million.

:38:38.:38:39.

I'll tell you the good news. I used to live in Nottingham is when I talk

:38:40.:38:43.

about the Midlands don't just think about the West Midlands grinder that

:38:44.:38:47.

the East Midlands is a powerhouse of small business. Nottingham,

:38:48.:38:52.

Leicester, huge centres of successful entrepreneurial small

:38:53.:38:54.

businesses and we are backing them all the way.

:38:55.:38:59.

The focus returned to the East Midlands were local Government

:39:00.:39:03.

minister was at the space centre to announce list of Leicester and

:39:04.:39:08.

package worth ?26 million including package worth ?26 million including

:39:09.:39:12.

The space industry SA huge sector The space industry SA huge sector

:39:13.:39:16.

and one that is growing very quickly. And the Government through

:39:17.:39:21.

its industrial strategy and enterprise it as an area where we

:39:22.:39:25.

high-value jobs to the economy and high-value jobs to the economy and

:39:26.:39:32.

he relaxed they are at the forefront of that sector that is why we are

:39:33.:39:35.

backing the project that the local enterprise partnership put forward.

:39:36.:39:42.

A few moments later Andrew Percy was in Sherwood Forest play Robin Hood

:39:43.:39:45.

and handing out ?63 million to the poor. Well, to the enterprise

:39:46.:39:52.

partnership to be exact. At the million included for a new visitor

:39:53.:39:54.

centre here. Daddy the governments pick winners

:39:55.:39:58.

between different regions of the country is nonsense. Of course we

:39:59.:40:01.

are investing in these Midlands as we are investing in other areas

:40:02.:40:06.

because we're genuine when we say one to create an economy that does

:40:07.:40:09.

work for everybody. Derby will get ?11 million to help

:40:10.:40:14.

with the regeneration of the city centre and Nottingham will get 10

:40:15.:40:18.

million towards the ?150 million free vamp of their broad March.

:40:19.:40:22.

That is not the end of the spending, though. Back there's Loughborough

:40:23.:40:27.

motorway. It regularly gets motorway. It regularly gets

:40:28.:40:32.

congested so they are going to spend ?12 million improving the roads

:40:33.:40:35.

around here. That is going to free up land for 4000 new homes. It is

:40:36.:40:41.

all part of improving the infrastructure, the Midlands connect

:40:42.:40:45.

part of the Midlands engine. The Government wants to increase

:40:46.:40:48.

productivity, part of what is holding the region and the nation

:40:49.:40:51.

back is other transport system. Clogged roads, slowing us down

:40:52.:40:56.

costing time and money. It can be tiring at times because of

:40:57.:41:04.

locations in the local area which locations in the local area which

:41:05.:41:07.

could do with improvement. So long-term plans to invest in road

:41:08.:41:12.

and rail is good for business. It will reduce traffic on the road

:41:13.:41:16.

for us and it will give us greater accuracy in our delivery times for

:41:17.:41:18.

our customers. We run our trucks 24 hours a

:41:19.:41:20.

night and day and we have a lot of night and day and we have a lot of

:41:21.:41:26.

deliveries. Any delays have a knock-on effect on by the end of the

:41:27.:41:29.

day we end up having bit more vehicles on the road to cover the

:41:30.:41:32.

jobs we have covered the got. The ultimate prize will be a 34

:41:33.:41:36.

million published the economy and 300,000 new jobs. For years there

:41:37.:41:40.

has been talk of the Midlands engine but not much sign of action. For the

:41:41.:41:44.

chance of this was the wheat from the boxes for boosting this region's

:41:45.:41:49.

economy began to be ticked. The challenge now will be to make it run

:41:50.:41:50.

smoothly. it?

:41:51.:42:02.

Of course. It is good they are the moment we exist. A lot of this money

:42:03.:42:09.

is re-spending money that has a ready been announced but certainly

:42:10.:42:14.

it is welcome. I think there are two issues for me. We're hearing about

:42:15.:42:18.

millions of pounds now but we know that our local authorities have lost

:42:19.:42:21.

many many times more over the last few years will stop Nottingham City

:42:22.:42:27.

Council has lost ?82 million in the last four years and that makes it

:42:28.:42:32.

difficult to do things like maintaining the roads and naturally

:42:33.:42:36.

that leads to problems. Of course our number one transport priority

:42:37.:42:40.

for the region has been the electrification of Midland mainline.

:42:41.:42:43.

That is ready been delayed by four years and now we know that its

:42:44.:42:45.

future is in doubt. Yes, it is welcome. Is it in doubt?

:42:46.:42:50.

Why is the Government holding back from letting us know where you stand

:42:51.:42:52.

on it? Where is the funding? If you

:42:53.:42:56.

actually read the Midlands connect brochure it is in their front and

:42:57.:42:59.

centre. So your Government is fully

:43:00.:43:02.

Absolutely. Why wouldn't the Absolutely. Why wouldn't the

:43:03.:43:07.

Minister commit to it being completed by 2023 when I challenged

:43:08.:43:11.

him at the last transport questions? You know very well but we have a

:43:12.:43:14.

number of Victorian bridges that are going to need major lift up because

:43:15.:43:21.

of the extra amount for the electric cables. It is huge.

:43:22.:43:26.

So it was met at the 2019 and it has been delayed by four years there is

:43:27.:43:29.

no commitment from rail Minister for it to be completed as promised.

:43:30.:43:35.

It is in the brochure. Please read it. Let's talk about the

:43:36.:43:38.

deals on the table this week. Is it enough cash your body Midlands

:43:39.:43:45.

engine? The northern powerhouse got ?556 million back in January. There

:43:46.:43:48.

work done in our region. work done in our region.

:43:49.:43:50.

Is it you not? Of course not apart Is it you not? Of course not apart

:43:51.:43:53.

from anything else you know that we've got HS2 coming and believe it

:43:54.:43:56.

or not that means it comes to the Midlands report gets to the not so

:43:57.:43:59.

there is a huge amount of money being spent. The regeneration, we

:44:00.:44:04.

have been waiting years to get that apple. That is ?4.4 million that the

:44:05.:44:08.

Government allocated to that. We've got to buy ?2 million for the Draco

:44:09.:44:12.

bridge between South Derbyshire and Burton. All these pins point that

:44:13.:44:18.

are going to be sorted out. There were a lot of bandwidth.

:44:19.:44:22.

Our infrastructure has been a problem. So we're doing it down. All

:44:23.:44:27.

you can say is, fantastic new Prime Minister.

:44:28.:44:30.

What else would I need to say? There are details whichever alludes to

:44:31.:44:32.

that will make a big difference here in the East Midlands will. Also the

:44:33.:44:36.

funding to rebuild the assembly rooms in Derby, improving the broad

:44:37.:44:39.

Marsh area as you know which is long overdue. Even better road junctions

:44:40.:44:45.

around Loughborough. 20 needed to become it is going to be done out.

:44:46.:44:51.

As I said, it is welcome that almost seven years later the Government

:44:52.:44:53.

have remembered that the Midlands exist and have thrown some money at

:44:54.:44:57.

the problem. It pales into insignificance besides the sort of

:44:58.:45:02.

cuts that our local authorities, local transport authorities had to

:45:03.:45:04.

deal with. The matter what Heather says there is no certainty about

:45:05.:45:09.

electrification. About that, all the talk about making us HS2 ready. If

:45:10.:45:15.

we cannot run classic compatible services by having an electrified

:45:16.:45:18.

Midland Bay Mabel will not be able to reap the full benefits. At the

:45:19.:45:22.

same time as we're trying to prepare for jobs and growth we are facing

:45:23.:45:25.

all the uncertainty that Brexiters going to mean for our region.

:45:26.:45:30.

I just think that as usual, we only have negative things from Labour. We

:45:31.:45:33.

don't have anything about the positives. We're going to talk about

:45:34.:45:37.

education tribal leader for Ben. But there is so much about the way

:45:38.:45:42.

businesses have approached Government and said this bit here we

:45:43.:45:47.

need fixing. This bit here we need fixing and we have listened.

:45:48.:45:51.

Is this part of the post-Brexit plan? It is because it is about

:45:52.:45:56.

making us that the global Britain and be looking wider than our

:45:57.:45:59.

neighbours in Europe because that is what I think people demand a bus.

:46:00.:46:04.

And that is what we want to do. As this is vital to our incredibly

:46:05.:46:08.

worried about what the future will hold, particularly manufacturing

:46:09.:46:13.

businesses who want to be part of the customs union and were worried

:46:14.:46:15.

about being able to attract and became skilled staff. A huge amount

:46:16.:46:22.

of uncertainty and I think it is far from clear that the Government has

:46:23.:46:26.

properly addressed the answers. It hardly even got a mention in the

:46:27.:46:29.

Budget because the Government know that they are creating huge

:46:30.:46:33.

difficulties. There is an interesting feature.

:46:34.:46:38.

growth are India, China, the US, growth are India, China, the US,

:46:39.:46:43.

Africa, the Middle East. Note you countries. Is this how it is going

:46:44.:46:48.

to look in the future? It is the way we have to look. Look

:46:49.:46:52.

at the economy of Europe. It is shrinking so why on earth would you

:46:53.:46:57.

make companies insist that they grow their marketing Europe won't as a

:46:58.:47:01.

to look to the countries that are to look to the countries that are

:47:02.:47:05.

expanding. When you have got to Ghana and places like that with a

:47:06.:47:06.

GDP going up 6%, of course that's GDP going up 6%, of course that's

:47:07.:47:11.

where you want your businesses to talk about exporting to. The idea of

:47:12.:47:15.

us not been prepared to do free trade agreement around the world,

:47:16.:47:20.

the spoke deals, we are absolutely ready and up for it.

:47:21.:47:26.

Time to give up on the EU? Those are our nearest neighbours, they are our

:47:27.:47:30.

major trading partners. It would be crazy to think about giving up on

:47:31.:47:34.

companies in the east Midlands who companies in the east Midlands who

:47:35.:47:37.

rely on being able to export from the EU we know we need to get the

:47:38.:47:42.

closest possible ties, albeit that the Government have already thrown

:47:43.:47:46.

away without even the negotiations having started, membership of the

:47:47.:47:47.

having started, membership of the single market.

:47:48.:47:49.

If we are to boost our economy, improving the skills among

:47:50.:47:52.

The region has traditionally lagged behind much of the rest

:47:53.:47:55.

of the country when it comes to a skilled workforce and suffers

:47:56.:47:59.

Now the government's launching a new qualification.

:48:00.:48:01.

"T levels " will concentrate on providing more vocational

:48:02.:48:03.

training for students to try to boost productivity

:48:04.:48:06.

Here's our political reporter, Wesley Mallin.

:48:07.:48:16.

Get any group of people together from the technical and engineering

:48:17.:48:22.

or construction industries and eventually the conversation will

:48:23.:48:27.

turn to the skills gap. Bridging that gap means starting with the

:48:28.:48:28.

younger generation and human Derby younger generation and human Derby

:48:29.:48:33.

the students are getting a hands-on introduction to construction at an

:48:34.:48:36.

event aimed at getting more women into the industry.

:48:37.:48:41.

You should do more days like this to encourage girls to get into

:48:42.:48:47.

construction. People do prefer women going into the house is bonanza I

:48:48.:48:51.

think it is helpful that I could be a construction worker.

:48:52.:48:54.

It really encouraged me as a female to go into the construction industry

:48:55.:48:56.

as it shows that the mouse can do it as much as males can do.

:48:57.:49:00.

Businesses say we need more people doing more vocational work back

:49:01.:49:04.

two-way across-the-board. The Government announced it was bringing

:49:05.:49:08.

in T levels alongside A-levels but with a greater concentration on

:49:09.:49:13.

teaching skills that lead directly into employment for subjects

:49:14.:49:19.

including business skills, digital T levels and construction.

:49:20.:49:22.

The new qualifications, think it puts digital skill sets that all

:49:23.:49:27.

forefront of educational attainment. forefront of educational attainment.

:49:28.:49:32.

And certainly other members have very much welcomed and the new fund

:49:33.:49:37.

that is clearly going to support that.

:49:38.:49:40.

There will be 15 subjects for students to choose from, replacing

:49:41.:49:42.

more than 13,000 courses at the moment. The amount of time spent

:49:43.:49:47.

training will go up by 50%. The technical group relaxed we be

:49:48.:49:50.

more fit for purpose and will enable young people to either going to work

:49:51.:49:54.

more ready, because they've had such a large amount of practical

:49:55.:49:57.

experience all take the pension route.

:49:58.:50:02.

Katie is an apprentice bricklayer who is enjoying combining studying

:50:03.:50:05.

with practical work. Last year I went on site and I

:50:06.:50:10.

wasn't confident at doing what I was doing. But now there is a spit and

:50:11.:50:15.

I'm learning and working. It is definitely boosting my confidence

:50:16.:50:19.

and it is good. The new qualifications, ?500 million

:50:20.:50:21.

of funding from the higher education of funding from the higher education

:50:22.:50:25.

sector. Critics say it has been hard-hit by cuts and more is needed

:50:26.:50:29.

to invest in facilities and prevent colleges from closing causes. The

:50:30.:50:32.

Government insists it is a radical overhaul that will boost

:50:33.:50:33.

overhaul that will boost the economy.

:50:34.:50:39.

Is this shake-up wise women know your Government is under attack from

:50:40.:50:44.

teachers who say they are struggling with a reduced curriculum and

:50:45.:50:48.

increased class sizes? That is an interesting take on

:50:49.:50:51.

something that is unbelievably positive and for the future for our

:50:52.:50:56.

children. We know that we needed to up skill are children. We know that

:50:57.:51:01.

in the East Midlands, historically, for years we are not done well

:51:02.:51:06.

enough by four children. Again, businesses have been crying out for

:51:07.:51:11.

us to do this. This has been done in partnership with local colleges and

:51:12.:51:12.

businesses in the training is just going to be absolutely excellent for

:51:13.:51:17.

them. Not just hands-on style but really high-tech, high technology

:51:18.:51:18.

stuff. We ought to look at what stuff. We ought to look at what

:51:19.:51:24.

Germany has been doing for years, you have a skill set that has high

:51:25.:51:30.

esteem in their communities. Why would we not want to do that as

:51:31.:51:33.

well? We lag behind some of our European

:51:34.:51:38.

neighbours. There is ?500 million of funding for this. That has got to be

:51:39.:51:41.

welcomed, hasn't it? It is welcome there is now an

:51:42.:51:45.

investment coming in technical education. You might ask why to take

:51:46.:51:48.

on the Government six and a half years to notice that this was

:51:49.:51:50.

something that needed to be done because actually, 16 - 18 education

:51:51.:51:57.

has been incredibly hard hit with cuts and whilst the 500 million is

:51:58.:52:01.

welcome, that might does even start coming through until 2018. But we

:52:02.:52:07.

have to seize on the wider context wishes our schools under funding,

:52:08.:52:15.

pressures as never before. Children are being pushed into a very

:52:16.:52:21.

academic curriculum there has been a terrible failure to get careers

:52:22.:52:25.

advice to those young people. If we wanted to be able to choose a

:52:26.:52:28.

technical education and to give that proper standards then we need to

:52:29.:52:34.

deal with the wider context as well. And that is what you were alluding

:52:35.:52:39.

to. It all links back to the Midlands engine and the need to

:52:40.:52:43.

improve skills in our region and the report which came out this week

:52:44.:52:47.

actually said that in these Midlands only 32% of the workforce have

:52:48.:52:50.

degrees. The national average is 37%. Education is clearly keen we

:52:51.:52:58.

are to our productivity. What I find really interesting is

:52:59.:53:00.

when you go round all of the schools, and we do this all the

:53:01.:53:06.

enterprise partnerships, how they enterprise partnerships, how they

:53:07.:53:08.

link in the businesses with education. We've got... I'm really

:53:09.:53:16.

lucky. I've got to good colleges and they're so good at what they channel

:53:17.:53:22.

the kids towards. Proper apprenticeships, really good quality

:53:23.:53:25.

training and then the apprentice ship that go all the way up through

:53:26.:53:29.

to doing degrees as an apprentice. That is Nirvana.

:53:30.:53:34.

You have concerns about underfunding and other areas in education. Do you

:53:35.:53:39.

think that this will help productivity, these are T levels?

:53:40.:53:44.

The emphasis on vocational training? All the emphasis is on young people

:53:45.:53:48.

and frankly we want to invest in the next generation but what we are in

:53:49.:53:53.

danger of missing is the huge skills gap for loss of the existing

:53:54.:53:59.

workforce. ?40 million to put in to look at how to address lifelong

:54:00.:54:02.

learning and that is so inadequate. We need to up skill all of our

:54:03.:54:07.

workforce. If we're going to face the challenges that we are going to

:54:08.:54:10.

happen as a result of leaving the European Union. So it is just too

:54:11.:54:13.

little too late. How would you do that with the money

:54:14.:54:18.

that is available and the bees also that are available?

:54:19.:54:21.

Some of that is about providing sufficient resources looking at the

:54:22.:54:25.

skills needs of the whole workforce. And providing opportunities for

:54:26.:54:29.

everybody to up so that they can meet what employers are demanding

:54:30.:54:32.

and they will have two. Employers are really worried about how they

:54:33.:54:37.

are going to recruit the workers of the future if they cannot access

:54:38.:54:41.

European union workers. I think that is absolutely spurious

:54:42.:54:46.

and a complete red herring. If you go around companies like Nestle, and

:54:47.:54:52.

the company in Hatton has grown from 200 pupils nearly 1000 people, they

:54:53.:54:56.

are taking apprentices at all ages. And that is wonderful that somebody

:54:57.:55:01.

coming in a 45 balls they, do you know what question of this is what I

:55:02.:55:05.

want to learn. And Nestle are prepared to invest in them.

:55:06.:55:06.

And Nestle are prepared to invest in them.

:55:07.:55:08.

Time now for a round up of some of the other political stories

:55:09.:55:11.

Commercial vehicles like buses, lorries and taxis with older diesel

:55:12.:55:22.

engines may be tried for entering Derby city centre. The Government

:55:23.:55:27.

has said Derby City Council has to cut emissions by 2020. The council

:55:28.:55:30.

cabinet will discuss plans for a clean air next week. Surgeons

:55:31.:55:36.

performing children's heart operations at Glenfield Hospital in

:55:37.:55:39.

Leicester have come up with a solution they hope could keep the

:55:40.:55:43.

unit open. Doctors want other hospitals to refer its patients to

:55:44.:55:47.

Glenn Field's congenital heart unit which has the lowest waiting list in

:55:48.:55:52.

the country. Not a Nottinghamshire could be in for an unexpected boost

:55:53.:55:56.

from the Budget. The Chancellor announced funding to promote the

:55:57.:55:59.

400th anniversary of the Pilgrim Fathers arriving in America. Some

:56:00.:56:05.

came from our region. Lillian Greenwood is spending how weekends

:56:06.:56:08.

with the region's emergency services. She's going out on the

:56:09.:56:13.

front line with 999 crews to understand first-hand the they face.

:56:14.:56:18.

How did you find it? How did you learn? One of the good

:56:19.:56:28.

things is that it was a relatively quiet couple of shifts which was not

:56:29.:56:32.

as exciting for me but I guess that was good for people in Nottingham

:56:33.:56:38.

but I guess I saw our staff are incredibly dedicated, they are well

:56:39.:56:40.

prepared to deal with the situation and they're dealing with change,

:56:41.:56:44.

which is doing a lot more preventative work, helping people

:56:45.:56:47.

with home safety checks, it is really useful.

:56:48.:56:54.

I would love to go out. Other local fire brigade are amazing, absolutely

:56:55.:56:56.

amazing. They might take you up on it.

:56:57.:56:57.

That's the Sunday Politics in the East Midlands,

:56:58.:57:01.

thanks to Lilian Greenwood and Heather Wheeler.

:57:02.:57:03.

Next week Amanda Solloway and Willy Bach will be here.

:57:04.:57:04.

Now the government plans for new grammar schools.

:57:05.:57:19.

The Education Secretary Justine Greening was

:57:20.:57:21.

speaking to a conference of headteachers on Friday.

:57:22.:57:23.

They're normally a pretty polite bunch, but they didn't

:57:24.:57:25.

Broadcasters weren't allowed into the speech,

:57:26.:57:32.

but this was captured on a camera phone.

:57:33.:57:36.

And we have to recognise actually for grammars, in terms of

:57:37.:57:39.

disadvantaged children, that they have, they really

:57:40.:57:43.

do help them close the attainment gap.

:57:44.:57:45.

And at the same time we should recognise that

:57:46.:57:48.

..That parents also want choice for their children and that

:57:49.:57:55.

those schools are often very oversubscribed.

:57:56.:58:02.

I suppose it is a rite of passage for and education secretaries to

:58:03.:58:11.

have this at a head teachers conference book the head are usually

:58:12.:58:16.

more polite. Isn't part of the problem, whether one is for or

:58:17.:58:19.

against the expansion of grammar schools, the government plans are

:58:20.:58:26.

complicated, you cannot sum them up in a sentence. The proof of that is

:58:27.:58:30.

they can still get away with denying they are expanding grammar schools.

:58:31.:58:34.

They will find an alternative formulation because it is not as

:58:35.:58:37.

simple as a brute creation of what we used to know is grammar schools

:58:38.:58:41.

with the absolute cut-off of the 11 plus. I am surprised how easy they

:58:42.:58:48.

found it politically. We saw the clip of Justine Greening being

:58:49.:58:52.

jeered a little bit but in the grand scheme, compared to another

:58:53.:58:56.

government trying this idea a decade ago they have got away with it

:58:57.:59:00.

easily and I think what is happening is a perverse consequence of Brexit

:59:01.:59:04.

and the media attention on Brexit, the government of the day can just

:59:05.:59:09.

about get away with slightly more contentious domestic policies on the

:59:10.:59:13.

correct assumption we will be too busy investing our attention in

:59:14.:59:18.

Article 50 and two years of negotiations, WTO terms at

:59:19.:59:22.

everything we have been discussing. I wonder if after grammar schools

:59:23.:59:27.

there will be examples of contentious domestic policies

:59:28.:59:30.

Theresa May can slide in stock because Brexit sucks the life out,

:59:31.:59:39.

takes the attention away. You are a supporter. Broadly. Are you happy

:59:40.:59:44.

with the government approach? They need to have more gumption and stop

:59:45.:59:49.

being apologetic. It is a bazaar area of public policy where we judge

:59:50.:59:53.

the policy on grammar schools based on what it does for children whose

:59:54.:59:58.

parents are unemployed, living on sink estates in Liverpool. It is

:59:59.:00:03.

absurd, we don't judge any other policy like that. It is simple, not

:00:04.:00:07.

contentious, people who are not sure, ask them if they would apply

:00:08.:00:12.

to send their child there, six out of ten said they would. Parents want

:00:13.:00:18.

good schools for their children, we should have appropriate education

:00:19.:00:20.

and they should be straightforward, this is about the future of the

:00:21.:00:24.

economy and we need bright children to get education at the highest

:00:25.:00:28.

level, education for academically bright children. It is supposed to

:00:29.:00:35.

be a signature policy of the Theresa May administration that marks a

:00:36.:00:37.

government different from David Cameron's government who did not go

:00:38.:00:42.

down this road. The signature is pretty blurred, it is hard to read.

:00:43.:00:46.

It is. She is trying to address concerns about those who fail to get

:00:47.:00:54.

into these selective schools and tried to targeted in poorer areas

:00:55.:00:57.

and the rest of it. She will probably come across so many

:00:58.:01:01.

obstacles. It is not clear what form it will take in the end. It is

:01:02.:01:05.

really an example of a signature policy not fully thought through. I

:01:06.:01:08.

think it was one of her first announcements. It was. It surprised

:01:09.:01:12.

everybody. Surprised at the speed and pace at which they were planning

:01:13.:01:17.

to go. Ever since, there have been qualifications and hesitations en

:01:18.:01:22.

route with good cause, in my view. I disagree with Juliet that this is...

:01:23.:01:26.

We all want good schools but if you don't get in there and you end up in

:01:27.:01:29.

a less good school. They already do that. We have selection based on the

:01:30.:01:33.

income of parents getting into a good catchment area, based on the

:01:34.:01:37.

faith of the parents. That becomes very attainable! I might been too

:01:38.:01:44.

shot run christenings for these. -- I have been.

:01:45.:01:46.

Now, you may remember this time last week we were talking

:01:47.:01:48.

about the extraordinary claims by US President Donald Trump,

:01:49.:01:51.

on Twitter of course, that Barack Obama had ordered

:01:52.:01:53.

And there was me thinking that wiretaps went out

:01:54.:01:56.

Is it legal for a sitting President to do so, he asked,

:01:57.:02:01.

concluding it was a "new low", and later comparing it to Watergate.

:02:02.:02:10.

Since then, the White House has been pressed to provide evidence for this

:02:11.:02:14.

It hasn't, but it seems it may have initially come from a report on a US

:02:15.:02:20.

website by the former Conservative MP Louise Mensch.

:02:21.:02:22.

She wrote that the FBI had been granted a warrant to intercept

:02:23.:02:25.

communications between Trump's campaign and Russia.

:02:26.:02:33.

Well, Louise Mensch joins us now from New York.

:02:34.:02:41.

Louise, you claimed in early November that the FBI had secured a

:02:42.:02:48.

court warrants to monitor communications between trump Tower

:02:49.:02:52.

in New York at two Russian banks. It's now four months later. Isn't it

:02:53.:02:56.

the case that nobody has proved the existence of this warrant?

:02:57.:03:01.

First of all, forgive me Andrew, one takes 1's life in one's hand when it

:03:02.:03:07.

is you but I have to correct your characterisation of my reporting. It

:03:08.:03:11.

is very important. I did not report that the FBI had a warrant to

:03:12.:03:15.

intercept anything or that Trump tower was any part of it. What I

:03:16.:03:20.

reported was that the FBI obtained a warrant is targeted on all

:03:21.:03:24.

communications between two Russian banks and were, therefore, allowed

:03:25.:03:28.

to examine US persons in the context of their investigation. What the

:03:29.:03:34.

Americans call legally incidental collection. I certainly didn't

:03:35.:03:40.

report that the warrant was able to intercept or that it had location

:03:41.:03:43.

basis, for example Trump tower. I just didn't report that. The reason

:03:44.:03:49.

that matters so much is that I now believe based on the President's

:03:50.:03:54.

reaction, there may well be a wiretap act Trump Tower. If so,

:03:55.:03:58.

Donald Trump has just tweeted out evidence in an ongoing criminal case

:03:59.:04:01.

that neither I nor anybody else reported. He is right about

:04:02.:04:05.

Watergate because he will have committed obstruction of justice

:04:06.:04:09.

directly from his Twitter account. Let me come back as thank you for

:04:10.:04:13.

clarifying. Let me come back to the question. -- and thank you. We have

:04:14.:04:20.

not yet got proof that this warrant exists, do we? No and we are most

:04:21.:04:25.

unlikely to get it because it would be a heinous crime for Donald Trump

:04:26.:04:29.

to reveal its existence. In America they call it a Glomar response. I

:04:30.:04:33.

can neither confirm nor deny. That is what all American officials will

:04:34.:04:36.

have to say legally. If you are looking for proof, you won't get it

:04:37.:04:41.

until and unless a court cases brought. But that doesn't mean it

:04:42.:04:46.

doesn't exist. The BBC validated this two months after me in their

:04:47.:04:49.

reporting by the journalist Paul Wood. The Guardian, they also

:04:50.:04:54.

separately from their own sources validated the existence of the

:04:55.:04:58.

warrant. If you are in America, you would know that CNN and others are

:04:59.:05:01.

reporting that the investigation in ongoing. Let me come onto the wider

:05:02.:05:05.

point. You believe the Trump campaign including the president

:05:06.:05:10.

were complicit with the Russians during the 2016 election campaign to

:05:11.:05:14.

such an extent that Mr Trump should be impeached. What evidence did you

:05:15.:05:15.

have? That is an enormous amount of

:05:16.:05:25.

evidence. You could start with him saying, hey, Russia, if you are

:05:26.:05:28.

listening, please release all the Hillary Clinton's e-mails. That's

:05:29.:05:33.

not evidence. I think it rather is, actually. Especially if you look at

:05:34.:05:36.

some of the evidence that exists on Twitter and elsewhere of people

:05:37.:05:40.

talking directly to his social media manager, Dan should be no and

:05:41.:05:44.

telling him to do that before it happened. There is a bit out there.

:05:45.:05:49.

The BBC itself reported that in April of last year, a six agency

:05:50.:05:54.

task force, not just the FBI, but the Treasury Department, was looking

:05:55.:05:57.

at this. I believe there is an enormous amount of evidence. And

:05:58.:06:01.

then there is the steel dossier which was included in an official

:06:02.:06:03.

report of the US intelligence committee. You've also ... Just to

:06:04.:06:12.

be clear, we don't have hard evidence yet whether this warrant

:06:13.:06:16.

exists. It may or may not. There is doubt about... There are claims

:06:17.:06:19.

about whether there is evidence about Mr Trump and the Russians.

:06:20.:06:23.

That is another matter. You claimed that President Putin had Andrew

:06:24.:06:29.

Breitbart murdered to pave the way for Steve Bannon to play a key role

:06:30.:06:35.

in the Trump administration. I haven't. You said that Steve Bannon

:06:36.:06:40.

is behind bomb threats to Jewish community centres. Aren't you in

:06:41.:06:44.

danger of just peddling wild conspiracy theories? No. Festival, I

:06:45.:06:48.

haven't. No matter how many times people say this, it's not going to

:06:49.:06:53.

be true -- first of all. I said in twitter I believe that to be the

:06:54.:06:56.

case about the murder of Andrew Breitbart. You believe President

:06:57.:07:03.

Putin murdered him. I didn't! You said I reported it, but I believed

:07:04.:07:07.

it. You put it on twitter that you believed it but you don't have a

:07:08.:07:12.

shred of evidence. I do. Indeed, I know made assertions. What is the

:07:13.:07:17.

evidence that Mr Putin murdered Andrew Breitbart? I said I believe

:07:18.:07:23.

it. You may believe there are fairies at the bottom of your

:07:24.:07:26.

garden, it doesn't make it true. I may indeed. And if I say so, that's

:07:27.:07:31.

my belief. If I say I am reporting, as I did with the Fisa warrant

:07:32.:07:39.

exists, I have a basis in fact. They believe is just a belief. I know you

:07:40.:07:45.

are relatively new to journalism. Let me get the rules right. Andrew,

:07:46.:07:52.

jealousy is not your colour... If it is twitter, we don't believe it but

:07:53.:07:55.

if it is on your website, we should believe it? If I report something

:07:56.:08:00.

and I say this happened, then I am making an assertion. If I describe a

:08:01.:08:04.

belief, I am describing a belief. Subtlety may be a little difficult

:08:05.:08:10.

for you... No, no. If you want to be a journalist, beliefs have to be

:08:11.:08:17.

backed up with evidence. Really? Do you have a faith? It's not a matter

:08:18.:08:21.

of faith, maybe in your case, that President Putin murdered Andrew

:08:22.:08:26.

Breitbart. A belief and a report at two different things and no matter

:08:27.:08:30.

how often you say that they are the same, they will never be the same.

:08:31.:08:35.

You've said in today's Sunday Times here in London that you've turned

:08:36.:08:42.

into" a temporary superpower" where you "See things really clearly".

:08:43.:08:48.

Have you become delusional? No. I am describing a biological basis for

:08:49.:08:54.

ADHD, which I have. As any of your viewers who are doctors will know.

:08:55.:08:57.

It provides people with unfortunately a lot of scattered

:08:58.:09:01.

focus, they are very messy and absent-minded but when they are

:09:02.:09:03.

interested in things and they have ADHD they can have a condition which

:09:04.:09:08.

is hyper focus. You concentrate very hard on a given subject and you can

:09:09.:09:11.

see patterns and connections. That is biological. Thank you for

:09:12.:09:18.

explaining that. And for getting up early in New York. The first time

:09:19.:09:23.

ever I have interviewed a temporary superpower. Thank you. You are so

:09:24.:09:27.

lucky! You are so lucky! I don't think it's going to happen again.

:09:28.:09:31.

Please don't ask us to comment on that interview! I will not ask you,

:09:32.:09:35.

viewers will make up their own minds. Let's come back to be more

:09:36.:09:39.

mundane world of Article 50. Stop the killing!

:09:40.:09:43.

Will it get through at the government wanted it? Without the

:09:44.:09:49.

Lords amendment falling by the way that? I am sure the Lord will not

:09:50.:09:52.

try to ping-pong this back and forth. So we are at the end of this

:09:53.:09:56.

particular legislative phase. The fact that all three Brexit Cabinet

:09:57.:10:00.

ministers, number ten often don't like one of them going out on a

:10:01.:10:03.

broadcast interview on a Sunday, they've all been out and about. That

:10:04.:10:07.

suggests to me they are working on the assumption it will be triggered

:10:08.:10:12.

this week. This week. The negotiations will begin or at least

:10:13.:10:16.

the process begins. The negotiation process may be difficult, given all

:10:17.:10:19.

of the European elections. The Dutch this week. And then the French and

:10:20.:10:25.

maybe the Italians and certainly the Germans by the end of September,

:10:26.:10:28.

which is less predictable than it was. Given all that, what did you

:10:29.:10:34.

make of Anna Soubry's claim, Viacom on her part, that we may just end up

:10:35.:10:38.

crashing out in six months question -- fear on her part. It was not just

:10:39.:10:44.

that that we made that deliberately organising. I want us to get on with

:10:45.:10:46.

the deals. Everyone knows a good deal is the

:10:47.:10:54.

best option. Who knows what is going to be on the table when we finally

:10:55.:10:58.

go out? Fascinatingly, the demand for some money back, given the

:10:59.:11:03.

amount of money... Net gains and net costs in terms of us leaving for the

:11:04.:11:07.

EU. It is all to play for. That will be a possible early grounds for a

:11:08.:11:14.

confrontation between the UK and the EU. My understanding is that they

:11:15.:11:19.

expect to do a deal on reciprocal rights of EU nationals, EU nationals

:11:20.:11:23.

here, UK citizens there, quite quickly. They want to clear that up

:11:24.:11:27.

and that will be done. Then they will hit this problem that the EU

:11:28.:11:31.

will be saying you've got to agree the divorce Bill first before we

:11:32.:11:36.

talk about the free trade bill. David Davis saying quite clearly,

:11:37.:11:39.

no, they go together because of the size of the bill. It will be

:11:40.:11:44.

determined, in our part, by how good the access will be. The mutual

:11:45.:11:48.

recognition of EU residents' rights is no trouble. A huge amount of fuss

:11:49.:11:52.

is attracted to that subject but it is the easiest thing to deal with,

:11:53.:11:56.

as is free movement for tourists. Money is what will make it

:11:57.:11:59.

incredibly acrimonious. Incredibly quickly. I imagine the dominant

:12:00.:12:02.

story in the summer will be all about that. This was Anna Soubry's

:12:03.:12:06.

implication, members of the governors could strongly argue,

:12:07.:12:10.

things are so poisonous and so unpleasant at the moment, the

:12:11.:12:13.

dealers are advancing -- members of the government. Why not call it a

:12:14.:12:18.

day and go out on WTO terms while public opinion is still in that

:12:19.:12:22.

direction in that Eurosceptic direction? No buyers' remorse about

:12:23.:12:25.

last year's referendum. The longer they leave it, view more opportunity

:12:26.:12:30.

there is for some kind of public resistance and change of mind to

:12:31.:12:34.

take place. The longer believe it, the more people who voted for Brexit

:12:35.:12:38.

and people who voted Remain and think we didn't get world War three

:12:39.:12:42.

will start being quite angry with the EU for not agreeing a deal. In

:12:43.:12:45.

terms of the rights of EU nationals he and Brits abroad, by all

:12:46.:12:52.

accounts, 26 of the 27 have agreed individually. Angela Merkel is the

:12:53.:12:55.

only person who has held that up. That will be dealt with in a matter

:12:56.:12:59.

of days. The chances of a deal being done is likely but in ten seconds...

:13:00.:13:05.

It would not be a bad bet to protect your on something not happening, you

:13:06.:13:08.

might get pretty good odds? The odds are going up that a deal doesn't

:13:09.:13:13.

happen. But, as I said earlier, the House of Commons will not endorse no

:13:14.:13:18.

deal. We are either in an early election or she has to go back

:13:19.:13:23.

again. Either way, you will need us! We will be back at noon tomorrow on

:13:24.:13:28.

BBC Two ahead of what looks like being a big week in politics. We

:13:29.:13:31.

will be back here same time, same place.

:13:32.:13:34.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:35.:13:38.

Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew discusses the Brexit bill with UKIP's Nigel Farage and Conservative MP Anna Soubry. Guests include Matthew Taylor of the Independent Review of Employment Practices and journalist Louise Mensch. On the political panel are Janan Ganesh, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Steve Richards.