28/04/2013 Sunday Politics East

countdown to the county council elections - a referendum on the

government. Or is a single local issue so controversial it could

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2292 seconds

of Sunday Politics. I'm Amelia Reynolds. Coming up: With less than

a week to the local elections, could a single issue de-rail an entire

council campaign? We'll be looking at the political

battlegrounds across the region, and what about this campaign's dark

horse - UKIP? A former insider voices concern. The policy. The lack

of policy, the lack of detailed policies I think is a huge weakness.

Let us meet our guests. Gavin Shuker is the Labour MP. Jonathan

Djanogly, the Conservative MP for Huntingdon. The most important story

is that of the triple-dip recession or not triple-dip recession. The

interesting moment for you Gavin. You must be pleased that your

constituency is seeing growth, but I bet you were looking forward to some

political point scoring that that trouble that recession would have

brought? That would have been the worst case scenario for my

constituents. And across the East. The situation we have is not much

better. Growth is flat over six months and there has been little

increase since this government came to power. We need real action for

growth. 0.3% is not a lot to shout about. Not a lot, but we are in a

tough environment. We are not in recession. The rest of Europe is. If

you look at the announcement this week in Spain with 27%

unemployment, France at 11%. We are doing relatively well. We have

treated a lot of new pirate sector jobs. If you look at this specific

region be adding particularly well with our exports and our businesses

are thriving. Not every Tory MP is impressed. The Northampton South MP,

Brian Binley, wrote an article in the Telegraph this week in which he

said the Chancellor has done little for small businesses and that the

government could have done more to spur on the housing market. He said

it was time for the Chancellor to be really bold. Jonathan, George

Osborne is being too timid. Is that a fair criticism? We are in tough

times and yes, more could be done. But this government has done a lot

to reform things and especially providing capital to companies. We

have cut a lot of regulation. I want to see more done. We are seeing more

growth, Gavin, the government 's strategy is working. We should stick

with that then? When you have the IMF saying that the government must

change course, George Osborne should listen to this. Really bold action

is required. What I do not believe is that we cannot be making bold

action to make more deep cuts. We must help people with their living

standards. When people go to the polls on Thursday, will it be the

state of the economy that influences how they vote will it be local

issues. In every county the continuing squeeze on council

finances means there is a serious debate about what we can afford and

what we cannot afford. And then they are the really local issues. In

Norfolk, the Tories have a comfortable majority of 34%, we head

of the Liberal Democrats, Greens and labour. You would expect the outcome

of this year 's election to be predictable. There is one local

issue that could bring the Conservatives down. Here is Andrew

Sinclair. The outcome of the election in

Norfolk probably will not be determined by a council cuts,

austerity or the poor state of the County 's schools at by a piece of

wasteland on the outskirts of King's Lynn. Plans for an incinerator here

is set Conservative against conservative and angered the locals.

It is a huge issue for me. Everyone is being completely ignored. There

is no evidence of what an incinerator will do here. Why do

they not have it in Norwich where the big population is instead of

bringing it over here? Why do people feel strongly about this? We do not

want it, it is being forced on us. There has not been such a divisive

issue in Norfolk for a long time. 93% of locals voted against the

plans in a referendum which the County Council refused to accepts.

And the rest of the county where the Tories have many seats, this is the

only issue in these local elections. The incinerator will cost nearly

�600 million. That is approaching �750 for every person who lives in

Norfolk. A huge sum of money to pay for something that is too large and

frankly out of date. It should have gone to a planning inquiry in the

first place. We think this was a wrong deal, the wrong company and

the wrong side. The Saddlebow Incinerator was the idea of the

Tories. Yes, it would be expensive, but it would stop tonnes of waste

going to landfill. The council leader who championed it, Derrick

Murphy, was forced to resign but his successor is behind the scheme.

is difficult when you are involved in a project that does not have

universal appeal, but we do have to remember that it will deliver

savings of over �150,000 each week, which given the financial climate we

find ourselves in, that is absolutely crucial to how we protect

services in Norfolk. This incinerator at Teesside has been

operating for 40 years with little public outcry, but with King's Lynn,

the problem has been more than a debate about the Iranian -- rights

and wrongs. There has been a feeling of secrecy and councillors have felt

left out of the decision-making process. The contract with the

developers has never been made fully public. The Greens say it is

indicative of how the council is run. There are people there who

voted in the referendum against the incinerator and they are still

pressing ahead with those issues. They should state that smack they

should take stock of the local people's opinions. While you can see

if locals do not want it, why cannot invest in other forms of waste

disposal? One needs to invest a portion of the money, not all of it,

and to recycling, and to bio digesters and all the other

technical operations. One does not need to burn everything. With all

the opposition parties opposed to the incinerator and several other

anti-incinerator candidate standing, known as too sure what

will happen to the vote in north-west Norfolk. If the

Conservatives lose enough seats, it could take the council to know

overall control. The incinerator is now in the hands of a public

inquiry. The Tories privately admit that on reflection this issue could

have been handled much better, but the damage may have already been

done. Joining us from our Norwich to do is

Simon Wright, the Liberal Democrat MP for Norwich South. How big a deal

as this incinerator owing to play in the Norfolk campaign? It is an

enormously important issue. It is important for the residents of West

North but also been -- all of the county, the reason being, it shows

the Conservative County Council is being divided and out of touch with

their people. A referendum showed that 90% of people were against that

incinerator. If you are in favour of localism, as the Lib Dems are, that

sends a very clear signal. cannot have localism without

nimbyism it seems. I do not agree. Localism is about consultation and

speaking and engaging with the residents. If necessary, building a

consensus around the proposal. In the County Council 's case they have

failed to do that and it shows the Conservatives as arrogant and out of

touch. You will never get consensus for an incinerator and if no one

took big and difficult decisions, nothing controversial would ever get

built. I am not in favour of incinerators in general, they are a

bad way of dealing with our waste. We must look at other of --

options. A special those with zero emissions. Other parts of the

country are doing this and you must hear in mind that waste technology

is one of the fastest developing areas of technology and we can get

benefits by looking at other forms of dealing with this waste.

Jonathan, there are always sticking points in every constituency. The

Conservatives, with their localism agenda, what seems to be happening

is that they are promising things but not delivering stop that is the

nature of localism. Decisions will be moved down... So it does not

work? Well, in my constituency it would be wind turbines. Six large

applications came in and they have been in areas that the local

residents do not want them to be. I have been supporting my constituents

but the district council supports them and then it goes to an inquiry

outwith the area which overturns the refusal. Localism seems to be going

back up the line and that needs to look at. Gavin, what did you think?

Simon and Jonathan are talking like commentators. They are in

government. This was a problem made by the government. They promised

localism but did not acknowledge the fact that sometimes big decisions

need to be taken in the national interest. I am not good to see there

is not a role for energy from waste but it feels that this community

believes their future is going to be blighted by this incinerator and the

local council must take an interest. The Labour Party is about top-down

targets. That was not popular either. By the end of our time in

government we reached a good place. We said was a need for big

infrastructure but we ensured planning permission to make sure it

went ahead in the correctly says. You could end up with incinerators

six miles apart with this government 's strategy. Jonathan, we have

Conservatives fighting Conservatives, never comfortable,

especially in the run-up to a local election. We do not do that in

Cambridgeshire, of course! The serious point is that hand in hand

with localism, you need higher levels of consultation and an early

engagement. Perhaps more like what they were used to in the past. Local

people get these projects thrown onto them sometimes and that is when

they get upset. We must engage with them at a much earlier level.

just a few days until people go to the polls. How do you think this

will play out? I am feeling very positive about our chances. We have

candidates united in the belief that we need to do more for a stronger

economy and a fair society. What about the incinerator and the impact

on Conservatives? The incinerator goes against that principle. It

locks the council into a 25 year deal when they do not know the

long-term economic consequences of it and it is not building a fairer

society when you impose something that is opposed by many people.

Thank you. More from all of you in just one moment.

That is Norfolk. In previous weeks we have looked at the picture in

Essex and Northamptonshire, so how is the rest of the region shaping

up? In Cambridgeshire, the Conservatives are not as solid as

they are in the more easterly counties of the region and this is

the only county in the east that is of real concern that smack real

conservative Lib Dem battleground. The Lib Dems are confident of

gaining seats. It is harder for Labour to gain even foothold here

since Peter brass plaque off of this region. At the two have higher

hopes. Southwark is a Tory stronghold but the Lib Dems are

choosing those Conservative seats, hoping to strengthen their position.

Although the Labour Party only has four seats, they are confident of

big games this time. Ipswich is their big target followed by

Waverley. Hertfordshire is also a county that has been governed mostly

by the Tories. Nevertheless, Labour has had massive support and was only

overtaken by the Lib Dems in 2009. All three parties are contesting a

number of marginal seats. We will be particularly interested in looking

at these elections because they are the first stand-alone ones for 20

years. Upon those will probably be lower. There is the Lib Dem vote to

consider that while at return or continue to desert them? The

biggest? Hangs over the growing support for how UKIP will play out

in debt East. There is the suggesting they have more support

here than anywhere else in the country. David Campbell Bannerman,

the former deputy leader of UKIP, talks to us.

One of the reasons I left UKIP was because I do not feel that smack now

be at it is heading. It does pick up votes and I do not knock it. I agree

with its position to leave the European Union but it has no plans

to leave the EU. It is years away from being considered as a series

government party. You build up clusters of this yet County Council

seats and you build up areas of concentration and if you own county

seats inside a parliamentary constituency, the perception

changes. It goes from people liking you and then believing that you can

actually win. I make no bones about it, the 2nd of May in East Anglia is

very important for UKIP. Johnson, how big a threat is UKIP to

the Tories? The battleground in Cambridgeshire is basically between

the Conservatives and the Lib Dems. The story is the implosion of the

Lib Dems. Where is their vote going to go? We are seeing a lot of the

Lib Dem vote go to UKIP. That may seem bizarre, considering the

European stance, but actually, it is a protest vote. The Lib Dems as a

protest for and they are going to UKIP. We will see an increase in the

UKIP vote, but I do not see them making many games. Simon Wright, let

me bring you in. The Johnson has said it is not looking good for you

in Cambridge. Or Cambridgeshire, rather. Certainly in the canvassing

I have been doing in Norfolk, I have been not knocking the doors in

Cambridgeshire, but I have not been getting any sense that UKIP are

getting more support of the back of the Lib Dems. We have seen a trend

where UKIP have done better than other things. There have been

individual elections that you can point to, but when you look at the

set of by-elections that took place over 2012 and this year, the Lib

ends have been net gainers in those by-elections and we held on to the

Eastleigh by-election in what were the most pressing circumstances for

my party. We can be upbeat about our chances in this election where we

have candidates that have been working in their communities and

dealing with the issues that people have been raising with them. The

problem UKIP will have is that, yes, they can talk about Europe and

immigration, but on the issues that are happening on people 's play

match streets and neighbourhoods. That they have very little to say.

Their message seems to resonate with old Labour supporters. UKIP 's

message can resonate with many different supporters, not least

those who voted Lib Dems previously. What I would say is that they are

going to have to do incredibly well in this set of elections to meet

their own expectations. They seem very bullish, but I would say you

need a proper party of government if you want change pushed through.

There is no evidence that UKIP are able to deliver on that. This is the

first time that many people go to the polls to vote for UKIP

candidates. It is the first time for 20 years that these County Council

elections have ran without being run alongside national or European

elections. What effect will that have on turnout? In terms of vision,

UKIP is going on to the doorstep is talking about Romanian and Bulgarian

elements and whether we should be in Europe. If you are concerned about

controlling immigration or if you want in and out referendum, you vote

Conservative. More specifically, what we are trying to do is put a

positive message on the doorstep, that if you want the best cycle

routes in England. If you want to have an A14 that is going to be the

main strategic route for our region, you vote Conservative. Good points,

but you stand to lose lots of seats this time around. I do not believe

so. They are in mind in 2009, that was a high watermark. You will seem

some natural change. Gavin, Labour must do very well. You are coming

from such a low base. You saw the make up of those particular

councils. We probably will not do as well as we did last time but we must

get the support for 2015. I think the Labour Party will do well. We

have some great candidates. Simon Wright, these local elections are

very important for parties' Ralph. Do you think the morale of the Lib

Dems is good to take another battering? No, I do not. I think the

morale of our party is reflected by the activity on the streets. I have

been out with candidates in Norfolk who were knocking on doors and

putting out leaflets and speaking to voters, getting good feedback from

the results of their positive activity. They are building teams

around them who are strong advocates for their communities. The Lib Dems

are in a good mood and it comes off of the back of a positive local

by-election result and we have also had defections to the Lib Dems from

Conservatives in recent months. Those sort of moves actually helped

to lift the party and put us in good spirits and we have a spring in our

step coming towards these elections. What a very optimistic mood from all

of you! Thank you all for joining This week's political round-up now.

One of our MPs once the referendum on Europe sooner rather than later.

When is a bedroom not a bedroom? When it is reclassified as the

study, this avoiding the so-called bed and tax. And more money this

week for extra ambulances and extra staff, but MPs still need convincing

that the service will improve. know there have been issues over

time in the East of England. It shows you why you need to get these

decisions correct in the first place and we should not have to be

correcting a problem that was made before. Concerns in Corby over the

breakup of the Union cropped up in Scottish Questions this week.

is a great example of the British family of nations and we should

celebrate it. I would urge its constituents to tell their friends

and families in Scotland to vote no in the referendum.

The Southend MP reveals why it never of his family wants no delay on the

Europe referendum. My mother will be 101 next Thursday! She wondered if

the referendum could be brought forward.

Gavin, you are cropping up all over the place on this programme! Should

the EU referendum be brought forward, not just to oblige David a

mess mother, but for the benefit of others? You cannot set AD -- you

cannot set AD sometime in the future or bring it forward now. Do we need

one? I do not believe so. Jonathan, should we bring it forward? We do

need a referendum and David Cameron -- David Cameron his pop -- has

promised one in the next Parliament. I would like to see one brought

forward to this Parliament. I think that would weaken out the Labour and

Lib Dem opposition and state clearly who is going to deliver it. Do your

constituents bring it up on the doorstep? This issue? Not to the

extent that UKIP do! Yes, it is an issue. People are more concerned

about the nature of the economy, jobs, employment, living standards.

These are related to our relationship with Europe. We should

not be undermining that relationship. We can talk about it

in the future but at the moment these guys need to get the country

moving. They should focus on that. Let us finish on the economy.

Jonathan, what should we do? We stay with the plan. We must change

course, everyone is saying it and there is a reason for that. We need

growth. Thank you both for joining me. That is all for now. You can

keep in touch via our website. We will have a full rundown of the