14/07/2013 Sunday Politics East


14/07/2013

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Two councils, one staff. Is sharing the only way our local authorities

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can survive? And MP Nadine Dorries on UKIP, expenses and reality

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2218 seconds

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the programme. I'm Etholle George. Coming up:

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Share and share alike - the two councils with one staff. Is this the

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only way to go when money's tight and getting tighter? We could not

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continue as we were before. Two small district councils cannot

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afford now to be on their own. need partners. There is going to be

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treasure to merge the whole thing. It will certainly save money but I

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think it runs the risk of alienating people from local government,

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because the authorities that they live in are too big.

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First though, let's meet our guests. Stephen Giles-Medhurst leads the

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Liberal Democrats on Hertfordshire County Council and is also a Three

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Rivers district councillor. He was head of Customs at Stansted Airport

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before going into local politics full-time.

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And the woman who went into the jungle and out of the Conservative

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party, for six months at least. Now, Nadine Dorries is back in the fold,

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as the Tory MP for Mid-Bedfordshire. Of course, she's never afraid to

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speak her mind - famously describing the Prime Minister and the

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Chancellor as a "couple of posh boys". Welcome to you both.

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But let's talk first about public sector payoffs. This week, BBC top

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brass were given a dressing down by the public accounts committee for

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huge pay-offs to senior managers. And here we have our own row

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brewing. Norfolk County Council has launched an inquiry over a payment

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of �106,000 to its former Chief Executive, David White, who was made

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redundant in April. Councillors were not told about the full amount. The

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Conservatives controlled the council at the time. The then-leader Bill

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Borrett said there was no intention to cover anything up. We paid the

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Chief Executive 35 -- �35,000 for being made redundant. The honour

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money is three months notice, some money towards his pension. That is

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standard. The thing is, it he was paid a very large sum of money so

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all the features are big. From your standpoint on

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Hertfordshire County Council, does a �106,000 payoff to a Chief Executive

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sound like too much? It is obviously a large amount, nowadays. The

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question is whether or not that perch in person was -- that person

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is contractually obliged. It goes back to how he was employed

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originally on whether this was discretionary. This is not the first

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time we have had this problem in the East of England. We had the �200,000

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payoff to the Chief Executive in Suffolk a couple of years ago. It is

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a question of how the contract was drawn up originally. Has that person

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been paid what they are entitled to or been given extra bonus payments?

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Are we developing a witchhunt mentality towards the public sector?

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I don't think it's a witchhunt mentality. Its accountability. The

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problem is that many of these contracts which are drawn up I've

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done so with poor HR practice. So that when the time comes for a Chief

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Executive or whoever to leave, people in the BBC even, a massive

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pay-out seems immoral to the general public, although, legally, they are

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correct. You cannot criticise that payment because legally, it is as

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the contract was drawn up. It is as it should be. One has to ask who

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drew it in the first place and, morally, this is something that will

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be Republican Guard -- will be repugnant to the general public.

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We've been talking about a council chief executive but MPs look set to

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lose their �33,000 Golden Goodbyes when they leave Parliament. Are you

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happy with that? When I first became MP, we used to get two and a half

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years salary and it was dropped down to �33,000. I think the problem is

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that the average life of an MP is eight years. Your future is not in

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your hands. It is in the hands of the electorate. You have to except

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that. And MPs pay - a 10% rise being

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While we're talking about public bodies saving money, here's a tale

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of two councils. Mid-Suffolk and Babergh are already next door

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neighbours. But now, the relationship has become much closer.

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They're the first in the country to share one staff team between them.

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It will save �1.8 million per year, every year. And that's 9% of the

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joint annual budget. District councils are under huge financial

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pressure. So are mergers the only way to stay afloat in the future?

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Liz Perryman really cares about local housing. An active member of

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her local tenants forum, she's now on the Joint Housing Board because

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Babergh Council and neighbouring Mid-Suffolk have pooled their staff.

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Now that they have merged, it is a lot better. So you would see it as

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an improvement? In terms of service, DS. Do you put that down to the fact

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there is one single team for both? Yes, I think I do. I have to say, I

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was a bit dubious. Now, it is working and it is all set up

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properly, it seems to be better than it was. These are Babergh district

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Council offices in Hadleigh. These are Mid-Suffolk's. Both councils

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have agreed to completely integrate their staff into a single team,

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serving to councils. These days, the leaders of the two

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councils have to spend a lot of time together. But if the result of a

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referendum in 2011 had been different, there would have been

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only one of them. A super authority would have been created, following a

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total merger of both councils. But the vote wasn't in favour - so

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they've gone for a complete staff integration instead. If you merge,

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you are sending out a very different picture. We felt that we should go

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out to the public. We had agreed between the councils that it had to

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be agreed on both or it would not go ahead. It was not agreed.

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Mid-Suffolk were for, Babergh were against. We still went ahead with

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integration and transformation. could not continue as we were

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before. No two small district councils can afford now to be on

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their own. You need partners. I think the communities expect us to

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do things differently. We live in a changing world. Local government

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cannot stay as it was. There was a referendum a couple of years ago,

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did you vote? No.Did you vote? did and said no. I like to have it

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here, the further away they go, the less chance of having any, you have

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local democracy, is what I thought you're going to have. It seems to

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want to get bigger and bigger and less personal. I voted against it

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because I would sooner have local accountability. But it's not

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happening, is it? It's pretty difficult to argue that the staff

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should be merged and yet the number of councillors should remain the

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same. There is going to be pressure to merge the whole thing. That

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brings a certain difficulties. It will certainly save money but I

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think it runs the risk of alienating people from local government because

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the authorities that they live in are too big.

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Whatever the concerns over the strength of the links between

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communities and their authorities, the traditional model of district

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councils standing alone appears to be in its death throes. It is very

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hard to see how the separate authorities can be retained. There

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will be pressure to merge and get better. While that might bring the

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economies of scale, it also brings disadvantages of people being

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disconnected from the local authorities they live in. Merged

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councils might be cheaper to run but they could lead to even more

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political disengagement. If we are changing everything else, why do we

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still want to keep the same number of councillors? Why? What rationale

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is behind it? There is not one. Those who would like more

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councillors representing fewer people and a more local democracy

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might disagree. Brandon Lewis is the Local

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Government Minister and also the MP for Great Yarmouth. He told Andrew

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Sinclair that sharing staff is the way only forward for district

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councils. Absolutely. We are actively encouraging local

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government conferences for small district councils to look at going

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down this type of fraud. There are variations and looking at what is

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right for every council will be slightly different. As a matter of

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principle, this is where a small districts should be going. Is there

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any evidence that this does save money? Absolutely. One of the first

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regions to do this was outside our region and the saving about 20%.

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When you have a �10 million budget, that is substantial. But regularly

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in terms of what the taxpayer funds. Many councils have done it. There

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are some very good examples as to how it works and the benefits.

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an interesting match, in Suffolk. Babergh increased council tracks and

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-- council tax and Mid-Suffolk slows theirs. That confirms why this works

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so well. You keep your local democratic sovereignty. Those

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councillors make decisions for their area. The fact that you get

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different decisions is fine. Babergh can make the right decision. The

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fact that their management team is shared with Mid-Suffolk does not

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change that. Even though Babergh increased taxes

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and therefore want to spend more money and Mid-Suffolk does not.

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of the reasons that some regions were able to do this is that they

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had a low base in the first place. It could be the have reticular

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services they want to focus on spin Bunny. That just proves that it

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works. Those local councillors, in that area, still have the

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sovereignty to make decisions for that area. Sharing management

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doesn't change that. In anything, you share offices and can get

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different views. Different experience. Is there not a danger

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that, even under this system, councils to become more remote and

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less accessible? You still have the local councillors in place, but the

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management is overseeing a much wider area and therefore cannot know

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the local area as well. I think what makes a Council accountable and

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local is the counsellor. They are who we elect. I want to see

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councillors have the best officers possible. It is the councillors were

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the decisions that. That is why it is important we keep that local,

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accountable democracy. Sharing Management allows the best financial

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prospects. This Government said that they will not go in for local

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government reorganisation. That is because it is expensive and

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top-down. This is about localism. We can encourage councils to do what we

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think is right and show them best practice, like Mid-Suffolk and! Are

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now showing. There are many others I could name but it will not take up

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all my time with that. -- all your time. That is very different to ours

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drawing a line and saying this is what we shall do. We are saying this

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is the right way to go for local taxpayers but they can decide who

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they wanted to partner with and how they want to structure. Then it is

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locally driven and decided. Are we seeing the end of our

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district councils? I don't agree with that. If residents want mergers

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of council that is how the board. In this instance, they did not want

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that. That was the Democratic well and the two councils accepted that.

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Since local government is facing enormous pressures, reduction in

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grants, shared services, backroom offices, in terms of staffing, is

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the way forward. It is not necessarily merging councils. The

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third of need to be local accountability and local

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decision-making. There is an issue, if you have a much larger authority,

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many people say county councils are remote if you live in one end of the

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county, 15 or 20 miles away from County Hall. There is the danger of

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that. Do you agree with that? As long as the services are good, do

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people really care whether they are shared? I agree about local

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constable to and local councillors. Able to want that. -- local account

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-- accountability. They wanted to be somebody they can approach easily.

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In Bedfordshire, we got rid of County Council and went unitary a

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few years ago. We now have three unitary authorities. You have to

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take into account the diversity of the areas where they operate offered

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and Luton and a rural area in the middle. We have three councils who

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address the needs specifically. in reality, a merger is on the

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cards, that is not what people voted for. It is not terribly democratic,

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is it? No. That would be for residents to tell their local

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councillors at the next local elections but that is not what they

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want and make it clear. There was a difference of opinion about the

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council tax. Is a worry about councillors' caseloads? If you are

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in a disparate area between urban and rural, there will be a different

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element of casework and different pressures. Areas of deprivation.

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They give problems for residents and the need to go to the council more

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with Nadine Dorries. You've just been re-adopted as Mid

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Beds' Conservative candidate for the next election. But you said in May

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that you're considering a joint Tory-UKIP ticket, is that still on

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the cards? I think the Conservative party have made it clear that there

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will be no joint tickets and they will not be going forward in a

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relationship with UKIP, it is not on the cards. I was not particularly

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concerned or myself, to be frank. I think the issue for me was more to

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do with my councillors. Many of the councillors in mid-Bedfordshire are

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all died in the wool Conservatives who embody those values. Actually,

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they have exactly the same policies and belief as any UKIP councillors

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standing next to them. I did not see the point of there being two people

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standing on the same ticket. For me, it was about saying to UKIP that

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we believe in many of the same things you do and so take your

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conservative firepower elsewhere. You're not defecting but you hardly

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curry favour with the leadership - famously calling David Cameron and

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George Osborne "arrogant posh boys". Do you regret that? I never regret

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anything I do. On the subject of MPs expenses,

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you've said you're not going to claim them and pay everything out of

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your salary. Is this anything to do with two ongoing investigations into

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your expenses? No. Actually, I have not claimed travel expenses for a

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while now. I think as a high profile MP, I am a sitting duck. Anybody who

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wants to have a pot at me can do so. All I have to do is pick up the

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phone and make a complaint. That is a position you put yourself in.

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have taken the decision that I do not want to claim any more

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expenses. I have never claimed for late-night meals or child care.

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there a witchhunt? It is interesting because somebody else in the BBC

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said to me that there is a small group of people who talk to each

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other every single day about you on Twitter on the Internet. The plot

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what they are going to do next. do you feel about that? I don't read

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it or see it but have to deal with the consequences. If I just removed

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myself from the expenses, it will cost me �30,000 a year and means I

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am doing my job for free. What about the money you earned from

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appearing on I'm a Celebrity. Are you going to declare it? You say you

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haven't earned it but it must have reached a bank account somewhere.

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One of the inquiries, I am very much forward to that report. When you

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have that thorough report, you will have that answer. Are you not go

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into answer any questions? I can't, there is an investigation ongoing.

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All I will say is wheat until the report is produced. I am looking

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forward to that. When you expecting an outcome? How do you feel about it

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hanging over your head? Very soon. I can't wait for it to come at. I

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can't wait for these reports to comment. The summer is coming and I

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would quite like to to just get over that. You did get paid, did you not?

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Wait till it comes out. You're not denying that you got paid? Wait

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until the report. What about Strictly Come Dancing? That is

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nonsense! That is a joke! I think somebody said to me on Twitter, I

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don't even remember, wasn't on Twitter or in an interview? Somebody

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ask me if I would do it and I said laughing that I had enough of

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reality TV and then said it would be fun. Would you do it?No. Your local

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party chairman told us he'd tie a ball and chain to your ankles to

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stop you. Would you do other reality TV? No. My constituents loved it, it

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was not inappropriate. What might -- what it has done is given me access

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to people I never had access to before, like teenagers.

:58:28.:58:31.

It's been a good week for our fisherman and Harlow's Robert Halfon

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has been standing out from the crowd in the Commons.

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Here's Ian Barmer with our 60 second round-up.

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Good news, this week, for east coast fishermen. Not the big trawlers but

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the one-man bands in small boats. With Government support, they now

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have a bigger slice of North Sea quotas. It is a lifeline for many of

:58:50.:58:55.

the fishermen along our shores. They want that quarterback, we want our

:58:55.:58:58.

fishing industry is to survive. MP Peter Bone introduced a bill to

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eradicate modern-day slavery. His ten minute rule bill passed

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unopposed but still needs government support.

:59:04.:59:07.

Energy Minister Greg Barker came to the Corby steelworks to hear they're

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losing business because gas and electricity are so expensive. And

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how could you miss Robert Halfon in a suit like that? The Speaker

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couldn't. Anything to catch your eye, Mr Speaker. And neither could

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the Communities Secretary. One knows when one has been tangled.

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The harlow MP is a man who knows being noticed is a big part of the

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political game. A very bright suit, Nadine Dorries.

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Is it important for MPs to keep a high profile? I think so. I think

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Robert should have gone into the jungle! Robert wearing that suit and

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doing anything he can to make sure that the residents of Havel know who

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he is and now his name will do him, serve him good.

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Is profile just as important at a local level? Have you got a

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brightly-coloured suit in the wardrobe? I have some colourful

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shirts but it is important to keep a high profile on the issues that

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matter to residents. Aren't we a bit obsessed with

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profile though? You went into the jungle to make yourself a household

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name, you say, but aren't you playing into a superficial celebrity

:00:21.:00:31.
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culture? I don't think so, no. It's really interesting because I think

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one of the most important things as an MP is to make sure that people do

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know who you are and can access you and understand you and know what you

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were like. The one thing that I do know about being a high profile MP

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is that it means my caseload is much bigger than it ever was before. By

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office is far harder worked than it ever was before. That is because

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people know who I am and now they can approach me.

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Does profile translate into votes? We will know at the next election.

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It may or may not do. It depends on whether you can help those

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residents. The higher profile means you get more casework and if that

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helps people sell their problems and can find a way out for the issues,

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that is a good thing. Thank you for joining us. That's all from us for

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the summer, as the MPs go on their holidays next week.

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But you can still keep in touch via our website, where Deborah

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