20/10/2013 Sunday Politics East


20/10/2013

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Good morning and welcome to The Sunday Politics. Alex Salmond says a

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vote for Scottish independence would be an act of national self belief.

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His deputy joins us live from the SNP conference in Perth. Is

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Whitehall meddling too much in modern affairs? The Communities

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Secretary, Eric Pickles, joins me for The Sunday Interview. Senior

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coppers will be answering questions this

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Food or fuel? The argument over what We will be

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Food or fuel? The argument over what we are growing in our fields. What

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Food or fuel? The argument over what London, does the London assembly

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have one arm tied behind its back? All of that to come. And the Home

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Office minister sacked by Nick Clegg, who says his party is like a

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wonky shopping trolley, which keeps veering off to the left. He will

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join us live at noon. With me to unpack all of this, Nick Watt, Helen

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Lewis and Iain Martin. They will be tweeting throughout the programme,

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using hashtag #bbcsp. It is the last day of the Scottish national party

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conference in Perth. We have discovered that Alex Salmond has

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been on the same diet as Beyonce. The SNP leader compared his attempts

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to lose weight with the campaign for independence - lots achieved so far,

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20 more to do. In a moment, I will be joined by the deputy leader of

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the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. First they report on the independence

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campaign. September 18 2014, the date of destiny for Scotland, the

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day when these campaigners hope its people will decide to vote yes for

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independence. In a recent poll, only 14% said they knew enough to vote

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either way. That is unlikely to change any time soon. I think the

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Scottish people will be going to the polls next year still not knowing an

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awful lot of stuff which is important, because the outcome, in

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terms of taxation, debt, exactly what will happen to the allocation

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of assets between the two countries, will come about as a result of

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negotiation between a Scottish government and the UK Government.

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That is not stuff which will be known year. At the moment, polls

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suggest Scotland will decide to remain within the UK. A recent

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survey found that 44% of those questioned planned to vote no, 5%

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yes. But interestingly, the undecideds were at 31%, suggesting

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that Alex Salmond's task might be tough but not impossible. There are

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a number of reasons which make a vanilla campaign a good idea. It

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does not put off cautious voters, it allows for people to imagine their

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own version of what independence will be like, and crucially, it

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allows for the yes campaign to take advantage of any mistakes by the no

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campaign. In other words, the yes campaign are not out there with big

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ideas, they are just waiting for the no campaign to trip up. What we do

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know is that whatever happens next September, Scotland will be getting

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more power. From 2016, a separate income tax regime will come into

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force, giving the Scottish Parliament control over billions of

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pounds of revenue. What we do not know yet is how the alternative

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would pan out. There are issues which would be raised by

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independence, issues about how the national debt is allocated, what the

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currency will look like, how an independent Scotland would balance

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the books, because it would have a bigger job to do, even down the

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Whitehall government has to do. Those are really big issues, which a

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Scottish government would have to face, on top of whatever negotiation

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it had to have with the UK Government. The Scottish

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government's White Paper on independence, two to be published

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within weeks, should fill in some of the banks. But how Scotland votes in

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September may yet be determined by what it feels rather than what it

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knows. And joining me from Perth is Scotland's Deputy First Minister,

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Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon, we meet again! Hello, Andrew. Former

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leader of the SNP Gordon Wilson said, if this referendum fails, it

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will fail on the basis that people put their British identity ahead of

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their Scottish identity, so we have got to attack on the British

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identity - what does he mean? Gordon Wilson is a very respected, much

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loved former leader of the SNP. My view is that I do not think the

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independence referendum is really about identity. I am secure and

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proud of my Scottish identity, but this is a decision about where power

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best lies. Do decision-making powers best lie here in Scotland, with a

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government which is directly accountable to the people of

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Scotland, or does it best lie in Westminster, with governments which,

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very often, people in Scotland do not vote for? That is the issue at

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the heart of the campaign. Let me just clarify, you do not agree with

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him, that you need to go on the attack with regard to the British

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identity of Scottish people? No I do not think we are required to

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attack British identity. It is absolutely compatible for somebody

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to feel a sense of British identity but still support Scottish

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independence, because Scottish independence is about a transfer of

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power. It is about good government, accountable government, ensuring

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that decisions are taking here in Scotland, by people who have got the

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biggest stake in getting those decisions right. I represent a

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constituency in the south side of Glasgow, and if you speak to many

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people in my constituency, if you ask them their national identity,

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many of them would say Irish, Pakistani, Indian, Polish, and many

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of them will vote yes next year because they understand the issue at

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stake, which is the issue of where decisions are best taken. It looks

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like you are changing tack ex-, you have realised the softly softly

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approach, of saying that actually, nothing much will change, we will

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still have the Queen, the currency, and all the rest of it, is moving

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over towards voting for a left-wing future for Scotland... Well, I know

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that what we are doing is pointing out is pointing out the choice

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between two futures. If we vote yes, we take our own future into our own

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hands. We make sure that for ever after, we have governments which

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will be in demented policies which we have voted for. If we do not

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become independent, then we continue to run the risk of having

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governments not only that we do not vote for, but often, that Scotland

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rejects. We are seeing the dismantling of our system of social

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security. There are politicians in all of the UK parties who are

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itching to cut Scotland's share of spending. So Scotland faces a choice

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of two futures, and it is right to point out the positive consequences

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of voting yes, but also the consequences of voting no. But you

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are promising to reverse benefit cuts and increase the minimum wage.

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You would renationalise the Royal Mail, though how you would do that

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nobody knows. You are promising to cut energy bills. These are the kind

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of promises that parties make in a general election campaign, not in a

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once in 300 years extra stench or choice. Is the future of Scotland

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really going to be decided on the size of the minimum wage? --

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existential choice. A yes vote would be about bringing decision-making

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powers home, but we are also setting out some of the things an SNP

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government would do, if elected A decision on what the first

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government of an independent Scotland would be would not be taken

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in the referendum, that decision would be taken in the 2016 election.

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And all of the parties will put forward their offers to the

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electorate. We are setting out some of the things which we think it is

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important to be prioritised. These are things which have a lot of

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support in Scotland. We see the pain being felt by people because of the

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rising cost of energy bills, there is widespread opposition to some of

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the welfare cuts. So, we are setting out the options which are open to

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Scotland, but only open to Scotland if we have the powers of

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independence. Given that you seem to be promising aid permanent socialist

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near Varna, if Scotland is independent, if you are right of

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centre in Scotland, and I understand that is a minority pursuit where you

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are, but it would be a big mistake to vote for independence, in that

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case, wouldn't it? No, because the whole point of independence is that

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people get the country they want, and the government a vote for. So,

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right of centre people should not vote for independence? No, because

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people who are of that political persuasion in Scotland get the

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opportunity to vote for parties which represent that persuasion and

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if they can persuade a majority to vote likewise, then they will get a

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government which reflects that. That is the essence of independence.

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Right now, we have a Westminster government which most people in

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Scotland rejected at the last general election. That is hardly

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democratic. It is right and proper that the SNP, as the current

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government, points out the opportunities that would be opening

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up. Can I just clarify one thing, when we spoke on The Daily Politics

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earlier last week, you made it clear to me that Alex Salmond, we know he

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wants to debate with David Cameron, but you made it clear to me that he

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would debate with Alistair Darling as well, and Mr Carmichael... He

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made it clear yesterday. Well, he said to the BBC this morning that he

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would only debate with these people after he had had a debate with Mr

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Cameron, so who is right? I was making the point last week, and Alex

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Salmond was making it yesterday and this morning - let's have that

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agreement by David Cameron to come and debate with Alex Salmond, and

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then Alex Salmond, just like me will debate with allcomers. So if he

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does not get the David Cameron debate, then he will not do the

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others, is that right? Let's focus on is wading David Cameron to do the

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right thing. So, in other words he will not debate, yes or no? Members

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of the SNP government... We know that, but what about Alex Salmond?

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He said yesterday, we will debate with all sorts of people, including

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the people you have spoken about, but David Cameron should not be let

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off the hook just putting aside the independence issue, energy prices

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are now even playing into the SNP, so every political party has to do

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something about energy prices. Yes, it is clearly it is interesting is

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the difference between the SNP and the Labour approach. Ed Miliband

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electrified the party conference season when he said he would freeze

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energy prices for 20 months, seemingly having an amazing control

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over the energy market, where we know that essentially what pushes

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prices up the wholesale prices on world market. What Nicola Sturgeon

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is talking about is actually saying, this amount is added to your bills

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for green levies, and we are going to take them off your bills and they

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will be paid out of general taxation in an independent Scotland. That is

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a credible government, making a credible case, very different to

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what Labour is saying, although playing to the same agenda. So,

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Labour has got a populist policy, the SNP has also got a populist

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policy, the one group of people that do not have a decent response to

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this is the coalition? Exactly. What the SNP also have is a magic money

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pot, so that speech yesterday, you are right, it was very left wing,

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social democratic, but there was none of the icing like Labour has

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been talking about, with fiscal responsibility. I think that is the

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difference between the two. We know what the Tories would really like to

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do, all of these green levies which were put on our bills in the good

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times, when they were going to be the greenest party ever, the Tories

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would like to say, let's just wipe out some of them, put the rest on to

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some general government spending, but they have a problem, which is in

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the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Not only that, they really

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are stuck now. But there is something in the free schools debate

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this morning, the parties are now determined to send a message to

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their potential voters at the next election, that they are trying to

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fight their coalition partners. Do not expected any change in coalition

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policy or free schools policy before the election, but we can expect to

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hear the parties try to pretend that they are taking on their coalition

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partners. Mr Clegg has said, we would put this free schools policy

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into our manifesto, so is it not possible that the Tories will say,

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if you give us an overall majority, we will cut your electricity bill

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because we will get rid of these green levies? I think that is

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entirely possible. The Tories know that they are stuck on this, they do

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not have a response to Ed Miliband. How much should ministers in

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Whitehall medal in local decisions across England? In opposition, David

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Cameron said he wanted a fundamental shift of power from Whitehall to

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local people. He said, when one size fits all solution is...

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Eric Pickles described it as "an historic shift of power". But the

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Communitites and Local Government Secretary can't stop meddling. In

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the past few months Mr Pickles has tried to ban councils from using

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CCTV cameras and "spy cars" to fine motorists... Told councils how to

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act quicker to shut down illegal travellers' sites... Criticised

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councils who want to raise council tax... Insisted councils release

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land to residents hoping to build their own property... And stated new

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homes should have a special built in bin storage section. It seems not a

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week goes by without a policy announcement from the hyper active

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Mr Pickles. So is the government still committed to localism, or is

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it all about centralism now? And Communities Secretary Eric

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Pickles joins me now for the Sunday Interview.

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Welcome. Nice to be here. You said in July you were going to give town

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halls the power to wreak their local magic. So why issue diktats from

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Westminster? It is not about giving power to local councils, it is going

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beyond that to local people. If local councils refuse to open up

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their books, we have to go straight to local people. You have attacked

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councillors using so-called spy cameras to enforce parking rules.

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Why is that your business? Because there is an injustice taking place.

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You cannot use fines to raise money and that is plainly happening. If

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you get yourself a ticket from a CCTV, it could be days or weeks

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before that lands on your doorstep and you have virtually no

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possibility to be able to defend yourself. But just leave it to

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people to vote out the council then. We are trying to enforce the law and

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it clearly states that you cannot use parking fines in order to fund

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general rate. So why are you not taking them to court if they are

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breaking the law? There have been a number of court cases taken by local

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residents. I am there to stand by local residents. Your even trying to

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micromanage, allowing motorist s to park for 15 minutes in local high

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street. Why is that your business? I'm trying to ensure that local

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authorities understand the importance of the town centre. If

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you look at all opinion polls, right now there is a five-minute leeway

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but there are many cases of people being jumped on by parking officials

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for quite trivial things. It is about saying, surely I can go and

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get a pint of milk. But a party that dines out on localism, that is a

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matter for local people, not the men in Whitehall. I have to be on the

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side of local people. That person who wants to go and get a pint of

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milk. Ultimately it is a matter for them. It is a matter for the

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council. But a little bit of criticism is not a bad thing. You

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have now declared war on the wheelie bin and suggested that new homes

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should have built in storage sections. You just cannot help

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meddling! I suppose that is possible. You are a meddler! I am in

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charge of building regulations and planning. So I may have some

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responsibility there. Another one, interfering in local planning

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decisions. A couple of places, you ruled in favour of developers. They

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want to build over 200 houses against the wishes of the parish and

:20:31.:20:38.

district councils. The local MP said the Secretary of State's decision

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runs roughshod over any concept of localism. Now I have to be a

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blushing violet because of course this is still potentially subject to

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judicial review. I have to act properly. And Apple went is entitled

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to justice. -- an applicant. A local authority has a duty to ensure that

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is adequate housing for people in their area. This was not a decision

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that I took as a personal decision, it was on the advice of an

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inspector. But you contradict what David Cameron himself said in 2 12,

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he spoke about a vision where we give communities much more say and

:21:36.:21:42.

local control. People in villages fear big housing estates being

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plonked from above. You have just done exactly that. After a proper

:21:47.:21:59.

quasi judicial enquiry. What we have is planning framework which local

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people can decide where it goes But they cannot say, nothing here. They

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have to have a five-year housing supply. Previous to this government

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decided exactly where houses would go, now local people can take the

:22:16.:22:23.

lead. Anna Silbury said because of the way your department rules, local

:22:24.:22:26.

authorities now have no alternative but to agree development on green

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belt land. I do not accept that I think around Nottingham there are

:22:37.:22:40.

particular problems with regards to the green belt. The matter has been

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referred back. the green belt. The matter has been

:22:49.:22:59.

want to see development on the green belt but on Brownfield site. We want

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to see underused land. But you have to remember why we have the green

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belt. Not to remember why we have the green

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nice, it is their to prevent conurbations bumping into one

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another. Your conurbations bumping into one

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is vocal about the need to deal what he calls the historic under

:23:18.:23:23.

provision of housing. Shelter says we need 250,000 new homes per year.

:23:24.:23:35.

provision of housing. Shelter says Houston statistics are getting

:23:36.:23:35.

there, but nowhere near that. - housing. You cannot

:23:36.:23:38.

there, but nowhere near that. - localism agenda as well as meeting

:23:39.:23:40.

housing demand. I do not accept that. We inherited a position where

:23:41.:23:53.

the lowest level of building since the 1920s was in place. But it has

:23:54.:23:59.

steadily improved. It does take a while. You cannot have a localism

:24:00.:24:05.

agenda where people call the shots on housing as well as meeting the

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housing demand. People have a duty to ensure that future generations

:24:11.:24:16.

have somewhere to live. You cannot pull up the drawbridge. There is

:24:17.:24:21.

nothing incompatible between that and localism. Because someone has to

:24:22.:24:27.

be the voice of those people who are going to live there and to make sure

:24:28.:24:33.

there is the proper amount. Plans now exist for more than 150,000

:24:34.:24:40.

homes to be built on protected land, including the green belt. That will

:24:41.:24:45.

mean riding over local concerns Each application will be taken on

:24:46.:24:50.

its own merits. To suggest that there is an assault on the green

:24:51.:24:55.

belt is as far from the truth as you can imagine. Should Andrew Mitchell

:24:56.:24:59.

get his job back if the years exonerated? I would be honoured to

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sit with Andrew Mitchell in the Cabinet. I have always believed his

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version. But it is a matter for the Prime Minister who he has in

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government. He would have no problem in seeing him back in Cabinet?

:25:16.:25:23.

Absolutely not. Your mother answered Vulcan junior minister Nick balls

:25:24.:25:27.

said about the Royal Charter for the press, there's nothing we have done

:25:28.:25:33.

that troubles me as much as this. Is that your view? It is not. I accept

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the compromise agreement put together. If the press want to have

:25:38.:25:44.

an additional protection that the Royal Charter offers, then they can

:25:45.:25:49.

move into the system. But if they want to continue independently that

:25:50.:25:55.

is acceptable to me. But you previously echoed Thomas Jefferson,

:25:56.:26:02.

you said for a free society to operate the river of a free press

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has to flow without restriction That is what I said at the time We

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had to find a compromise. And that seems to me to be a better

:26:16.:26:21.

compromise. Let me just show you this little montage of pictures that

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we have. I could not be happier Then you are in the Desert and there

:26:34.:26:42.

you are in San Francisco. Then you are in the casino. That is my

:26:43.:26:56.

personal favourite. These students took a cardboard cutout of you and

:26:57.:27:02.

took it round the world with them. Did you ever think you would become

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a student icon? I always felt secretly that that might happen one

:27:09.:27:13.

day. But it came earlier in my career than I thought! Why would

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they do that? I think they thought I could do with a bit of an airing! I

:27:22.:27:29.

went to Norfolk earlier, but that looks better. Thank you.

:27:30.:27:37.

On Wednesday senior police folk including chief constables, will be

:27:38.:27:40.

questioned by MPs about what's become known as Plebgate. That's the

:27:41.:27:44.

incident in Downing Street last year which led to the resignation of the

:27:45.:27:47.

government chief whip Andrew Mitchell. Last week the Independent

:27:48.:27:49.

Police Complaints Commission questioned the "honesty and

:27:50.:27:51.

integrity" of police officers who met Mr Mitchell following the row.

:27:52.:27:57.

So do scandals like this affect public trust in the police? Here's

:27:58.:28:04.

Adam Fleming. It's a story of politics, the

:28:05.:28:10.

police, and CCTV. No, not Andrew Mitchell, but an MP's researcher

:28:11.:28:13.

called Alex Bryce and his partner Iain Feis.

:28:14.:28:19.

It started on a summer night in 2011. They'd been in Parliament

:28:20.:28:23.

After a few words with a police officer, Ian was wrestled to the

:28:24.:28:28.

ground. Alex came to have a look and the same thing happened to him. Both

:28:29.:28:32.

were arrested and charged. These pictures emerged on day one of their

:28:33.:28:37.

trial. A trial that was halted because the police version of events

:28:38.:28:44.

just didn't match the footage. A lot of people with incidence like this

:28:45.:28:51.

which we experienced, people think there is no smoke without fire. So

:28:52.:28:55.

when we said we did nothing wrong, people would think police just would

:28:56.:29:02.

not do that. There is always that underlying view that some people

:29:03.:29:06.

have. I think that has been challenged and people who know us

:29:07.:29:11.

believe that. This year the Met apologised and paid compensation.

:29:12.:29:14.

And it's led to an unlikely sort of friendship. When the truth came out

:29:15.:29:21.

about the Andrew Mitchell story I actually sent him an e-mail to

:29:22.:29:24.

congratulate him about the truth coming out. He did send a reply

:29:25.:29:30.

acknowledging that. So where are we with THAT saga? Remember last

:29:31.:29:34.

September? Andrew Mitchell had a row with police at the gates of Downing

:29:35.:29:38.

Street about his bike. He lost his job as chief whip after accusations

:29:39.:29:41.

he called the officers plebs. That, he's always denied. This week the

:29:42.:29:47.

police watchdog the IPCC suggested that three officers may have lied

:29:48.:29:51.

about a meeting with him at the height of the scandal. Add that to

:29:52.:29:56.

the charge sheet of cases that haven't exactly flattered the

:29:57.:30:00.

police. Like the revelation of a cover up over Hillsborough. The

:30:01.:30:05.

prosecution of an officer from the Met over the death of Ian Tomlinson

:30:06.:30:11.

during protests in 2009. Along with news that undercover officers were

:30:12.:30:14.

told to smear the family of Stephen Lawrence. During Thursday's protest

:30:15.:30:19.

by teachers in Westminster the police operation was really, really

:30:20.:30:24.

relaxed. And recent scandals have done nothing to affect society's

:30:25.:30:28.

view of the boys and girls in blue - or should I say hi-vis. About 6 % of

:30:29.:30:31.

the public say they trust the police. And that's not budged since

:30:32.:30:39.

pollsters started measuring it 0 years ago.

:30:40.:30:48.

Of course, in Britain, crime is down, so the perception might be

:30:49.:30:54.

that the police is doing a good job. And the rank-and-file recently

:30:55.:30:58.

seamed pretty chipper at this awards ceremony. Is it a good time to be a

:30:59.:31:03.

police officer? It is a good time. Despite all of the headlines? Still

:31:04.:31:10.

a good time. But speak to officers privately, and they say Plebgate is

:31:11.:31:14.

affecting how the public see them. Some of them also think

:31:15.:31:17.

politicians, the Tories especially, are enjoying that a little too much.

:31:18.:31:23.

Adam Fleming reporting there. Going head-to-head on this issue of trust

:31:24.:31:30.

in the police, a Sunday Mirror columnist and Peter Kirkham, former

:31:31.:31:36.

chief inspector. Peter Kirkham, let me come to you first. Plebgate, the

:31:37.:31:42.

cover-ups over John Charles De menace, the death of Ian Tomlinson,

:31:43.:31:48.

the industrial deception over Hillsborough, why is the culture of

:31:49.:31:53.

deceit so prevalent in the police? I do not agree there is a cultural

:31:54.:31:57.

deceit. These are all individual incidents which raise individual

:31:58.:32:02.

issues. I would suggest that your short headline summarising each of

:32:03.:32:05.

them has taken the most negative view of it. How can you be positive

:32:06.:32:14.

about the police's behaviour over Hillsborough? It remains to be seen

:32:15.:32:18.

with the inquiry but we are probably talking about a handful of senior

:32:19.:32:20.

officers, dealing with the paperwork. Well over 100 testimonies

:32:21.:32:31.

being doctored by the police. Well, those testimonies were true to start

:32:32.:32:35.

with, so the officers have told the truth, and they have been changed

:32:36.:32:41.

for some reason. By the police. By the police all lawyers we have got

:32:42.:32:45.

this thing that the police conflates everything. There are 43 forces

:32:46.:32:51.

there is ACPO, there is the College Of Policing... People say it was a

:32:52.:32:59.

handful of police officers, it wasn't, it was six senior police

:33:00.:33:03.

officers who were alleged to have doctored 106 D4 statements. Even

:33:04.:33:07.

today we are hearing that more than 1000 officers are yet to be spoken

:33:08.:33:16.

to about Hillsborough. -- 164. Do we pretend that Hillsborough, and some

:33:17.:33:19.

of these examples, are the exception rather than the rule? What is the

:33:20.:33:26.

evidence that this is now prevalent in our police? I think there is a

:33:27.:33:31.

lot of evidence, and Plebgate is probably the thing which has

:33:32.:33:34.

clinched it. The public want to know, how deep does this girl? The

:33:35.:33:38.

audacity of a group of policemen who think they can set up a Cabinet

:33:39.:33:44.

minister. Five of those who were arrested and bailed still have not

:33:45.:33:48.

been charged. One of those officers actually wrote an e-mail pretending

:33:49.:33:51.

to be a member of the public. I do not see what the problem is in

:33:52.:33:57.

prosecuting them for that. Taking Plebgate, there are loads of

:33:58.:34:00.

different bits of that incident There is the officers on duty in

:34:01.:34:04.

Downing Street, the issue of who leaked the story to the Sun, there

:34:05.:34:08.

are the officers who claim to have been there who would appear not to

:34:09.:34:12.

have been there, and then we have got the West Midlands meeting

:34:13.:34:15.

issue, which has sort of been resolved this week. There has been

:34:16.:34:24.

misconduct. But at a lower level. But it is the audacity of an

:34:25.:34:27.

organisation which thinks it can take on an elected minister and

:34:28.:34:32.

destroy him for their own political purposes, at a time when the

:34:33.:34:35.

Government are cutting please pay, when they are freezing their

:34:36.:34:39.

pensions and reducing their numbers. It looks very much to all of us the

:34:40.:34:43.

public, that the police are at war with the government, and they are

:34:44.:34:46.

going to do anything they can to discredit the Government. The police

:34:47.:34:51.

would have every reason to be at war with the Government, because there

:34:52.:35:00.

if there is a crisis of trust.. But it looks like they fitted up a

:35:01.:35:05.

Cabinet minister. That remains to be seen, it is being investigated. We

:35:06.:35:11.

know that those Birmingham officers, they totally misrepresented to, if

:35:12.:35:16.

not lied outright, about what was said. Again, that is a

:35:17.:35:20.

misrepresentation of what happened. If you actually go and look at what

:35:21.:35:24.

is said, it is plain from the context, they were saying, he has

:35:25.:35:31.

told us nothing new. But he had in the transcript, it said he hadn t.

:35:32.:35:37.

He would not admit he had used the word pleb. He apologised profusely,

:35:38.:35:42.

he said it would never happen again, he said many things that he had not

:35:43.:35:47.

said before. I agree, which is presumably... Thereon many police

:35:48.:35:52.

forces in this country, they have one of the toughest jobs in the

:35:53.:35:56.

land, they end up getting involved in almost anything which happens in

:35:57.:36:02.

society, and there are obviously a number of difficult examples, but

:36:03.:36:07.

what is the evidence that it is out of hand, other than just several bad

:36:08.:36:15.

apples? This bad apples argument, we have some amazing police people

:36:16.:36:18.

thank God, but it is because of those that we have to root out the

:36:19.:36:22.

bad ones, the ones that are possibly corrupt. From where most of us are

:36:23.:36:27.

standing, the ones who are being accused of being corrupt, there does

:36:28.:36:30.

not seem to be any process to deal with these people. The trouble with

:36:31.:36:34.

a rotten apple is that it spreads. It is not fair on the good cops to

:36:35.:36:39.

be tainted by this, and I think the police force, as an institution ..

:36:40.:36:42.

For all of us, we have to respect the police. There is a problem, is

:36:43.:36:50.

there not? People do worry that if you can fit up a Cabinet minister,

:36:51.:36:56.

you can fit up anybody... . I would disagree that anybody has proved

:36:57.:37:00.

that anybody has been fitted up We are yet to hear what happened at the

:37:01.:37:04.

gates of Downing Street. But what we do know about the gates of Downing

:37:05.:37:09.

Street is that we were told by the police officers that passers-by had

:37:10.:37:16.

heard this incredible row, where Mitchell's file went was bullied.

:37:17.:37:25.

That is not true... . They did not use those words, actually. All

:37:26.:37:32.

right, but it is clear that the Police Federation jumped on this as

:37:33.:37:43.

a politically motivated campaign... I have always said that politics

:37:44.:37:47.

should be kept out of policing. The federation, they cannot go on

:37:48.:37:51.

strike, but this was to covertly political, so I criticise them for

:37:52.:37:55.

that. Do we need a better way of monitoring the police? We need a

:37:56.:38:01.

more competent and properly resourced Independent police

:38:02.:38:07.

commission. But if you look at those Bravery Awards, every police

:38:08.:38:11.

officer, every year, who acts with bravery... That is the police force

:38:12.:38:18.

we want to believe in. That is the police force you have got. We will

:38:19.:38:24.

leave it there. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be speaking

:38:25.:38:27.

to former Lib Minister Jeremy Browne. And in The Week Ahead,

:38:28.:38:37.

Hello and welcome to the part of the programme just for us here in the

:38:38.:38:42.

east. I'm Etholle George. Today, we go where David Cameron

:38:43.:38:45.

fears to tread ` the question which he was pleased not to have to answer

:38:46.:38:48.

at Prime Minister's Questions. And food or fuel? The row over what

:38:49.:39:02.

we're using our fields for. This is something that that is at the

:39:03.:39:08.

cutting edge of diversity. I think it is a shame that we are now

:39:09.:39:13.

getting disincentives to these organisations that are trying to do

:39:14.:39:15.

something ethically sound. First let's meet our guests. David

:39:16.:39:18.

Ruffley is Conservative MP for Bury St Edmunds and Andrew Boswell who is

:39:19.:39:22.

a Green Party councillor both on Norwich City Council and on Norfolk

:39:23.:39:24.

County Council. And let's start with the Prime

:39:25.:39:27.

Minister, because this is what he was pleased to avoid at Prime

:39:28.:39:35.

Minister's Questions this week. Thank you. I originally intended to

:39:36.:39:41.

raise the issue of the road with my honourable friend. Can I thank her

:39:42.:39:45.

for forsaking the issue of the eighth 14... Well he may not be keen

:39:46.:39:50.

about questions about that road, but there have been a lot around. The

:39:51.:39:56.

end of the public consultation on the toll road. MPs argued that their

:39:57.:40:02.

constituents would be paying Cambridge's congestion charge. So,

:40:03.:40:07.

this sounds like serious rift between Suffolk and Cambridge.

:40:08.:40:12.

Suffolk was not properly consulted. It is also the case that the

:40:13.:40:17.

ministers in the department weren't really aware until recently of the

:40:18.:40:23.

concern in Suffolk, I have spoken to the Secretary of State for transport

:40:24.:40:30.

and the Roads Minister. We will see them as stretch that Suffolk should

:40:31.:40:35.

not be painful Cambridge's problem. It will not be the case that you can

:40:36.:40:41.

use the existing A14 once the relief road is built. Heavy goods vehicles

:40:42.:40:45.

will not be able to travel freely and even saloon cars will

:40:46.:40:50.

effectively be on a second`class road, it is not acceptable. It will

:40:51.:40:57.

make Suffolk the odd county out and add it will be a road apartheid. I

:40:58.:41:07.

am very concerned that we are going to be spending ?1.5 billion just to

:41:08.:41:15.

create more congestion. We also will create an air quality problem and in

:41:16.:41:20.

fact the road proposals as they stand may well breach the air

:41:21.:41:23.

quality standards and we are beginning to see issues like the

:41:24.:41:30.

World Health Organisation says that sort of air pollution is responsible

:41:31.:41:37.

for lung cancer and is a factor. There are serious issues. They

:41:38.:41:42.

could, if your Government cannot afford to pay for it, it is not

:41:43.:41:45.

unreasonable to expect people who are using the Road to do that?

:41:46.:41:52.

Exactly. There is an idea kicking around that Cambridge city should

:41:53.:41:56.

introduce a congestion charge so those around it should and in it

:41:57.:42:01.

should pay the kind of charge you find in London, for instance, which

:42:02.:42:06.

was introduced by Ken Livingstone and kept by Boris Johnson. It should

:42:07.:42:11.

not be the case that Suffolk is essentially being poll tax. Giving

:42:12.:42:16.

you cannot stop the road, do you accept that a toll is a good idea? I

:42:17.:42:24.

don't think having an apartheid in the road system is good. I would

:42:25.:42:29.

support the congestion charge in a city like Cambridge where there is a

:42:30.:42:35.

lot of congestion. I think there are alternatives though. For example,

:42:36.:42:39.

the residents of Brampton are already surrounded me the A14

:42:40.:42:47.

junction with four I `` lanes either side. They are very worried about

:42:48.:42:52.

the air quality. Well the European Parliament is

:42:53.:42:55.

generally held to be a slightly more civilised affair than the

:42:56.:42:58.

Westminster bear pit, but not apparently this week. And the

:42:59.:43:00.

subject raising hackles? Biofuel. That's crops being grown to fuel

:43:01.:43:05.

vehicles. You may be surprised to learn how big a business it is here

:43:06.:43:09.

in the east. At the Wissington sugar beet factory near Kings Lynn, for

:43:10.:43:12.

example, they produce 77 million litres of bioethanol a year, one

:43:13.:43:15.

tenth of all the green petrol used in the UK. Which is why there's real

:43:16.:43:23.

concern over EU plans to cut the amount of agricultural land allowed

:43:24.:43:26.

for the use of growing crops for biofuel from 10% to 6% All day

:43:27.:43:29.

lorries pour into British Sugar's Wissington factory on the edge of

:43:30.:43:31.

the Fens. But nearly a quarter of the beet

:43:32.:43:58.

arriving here won't end up as sugar. Instead it's turned into bioethanol

:43:59.:44:09.

for road fuel. In 2007, British Sugar opened its plant at it wishing

:44:10.:44:13.

to and works. It held the company used up sugar beet production. Just

:44:14.:44:19.

six years on, the European Union seems the beginning to get cold feet

:44:20.:44:23.

about producing biofuels from productive farmland. Why? Well,

:44:24.:44:26.

picture a swathe of farmland nearly eight miles long by five miles wide.

:44:27.:44:30.

That's what it takes to feed Wissington's bioethanol plant. The

:44:31.:44:35.

European Parliament fears the current target for 10% of road fuel

:44:36.:44:39.

to be sourced from food crops is displacing food production, pushing

:44:40.:44:46.

up food prices. So it's voted to cut the figure to 6% to the dismay of

:44:47.:44:50.

some working in the East Anglia's energy sector. These were really

:44:51.:44:59.

quite innovative ways in which excess produce to produce biofuels

:45:00.:45:06.

to assist us in cutting our nations. That was the interesting

:45:07.:45:11.

and novel thing we are doing and it was at the cutting edge of diversity

:45:12.:45:15.

in terms of biofuels. I think it is a shame that we are getting

:45:16.:45:20.

disincentives now. At Lotus' headquarters in Norfolk they have

:45:21.:45:23.

little doubt biofuels are the future. For five years, Lotus has

:45:24.:45:36.

been experimenting with biofuels. This runs on a mix of bio ethanol.

:45:37.:45:40.

The company is passionate that they should be sourced in a way that does

:45:41.:45:45.

not sacrifice valuable agricultural land. In a building over their is

:45:46.:45:50.

something much more interesting. `` over there. This is an advanced

:45:51.:46:01.

cell. This is our omnivore engine, it is designed to run on a variety

:46:02.:46:05.

of fuels. If we look at other countries, they already run fuels

:46:06.:46:09.

with high ethanol content and what we have. Alcohol is used as a ratio

:46:10.:46:14.

in the States, as well. The technology is there. I would say it

:46:15.:46:20.

is not the technology that is holding things back, it is one of

:46:21.:46:26.

the social implications, political implications, of moving the

:46:27.:46:29.

technology on. The EU wants to encourage greater use of alternative

:46:30.:46:32.

sources of biofuels. This new gas refuelling station for lorries in

:46:33.:46:35.

Daventry uses biomethane, sourced from rotting rubbish at a landfill

:46:36.:46:39.

site. At the Institute of Food Research in Norwich, they're

:46:40.:46:41.

investigating how heat and pressure can be used to turn anything from

:46:42.:46:49.

wood shavings to straw into biofuel. The potential for making bio ethanol

:46:50.:46:58.

from food waste and things like that is getting close to commercial

:46:59.:47:04.

viability. There has been a lot of research into it over the last ten

:47:05.:47:09.

or 15 years and the process itself are becoming understood. It cost ?20

:47:10.:47:13.

million to build British Sugar's bioethanol plant at Wissington. If

:47:14.:47:16.

the targets for biofuels from food crops are cut future investment

:47:17.:47:24.

could be put at risk. How damaging do you think this proposal is for

:47:25.:47:29.

the East of England? It's not good news for feature investment, that is

:47:30.:47:34.

for sure. That concerns me. In terms of the technology there, people's

:47:35.:47:39.

desire to invest in technology going forward will be limited as a result

:47:40.:47:42.

of this. I think it is always dangerous if you do not know what

:47:43.:47:46.

the next policy decision will be from Europe that may patterns alter

:47:47.:47:49.

of investment. Well concern is so great over the

:47:50.:47:52.

viability of the biofuels industry that it's been the subject of a

:47:53.:47:56.

furious debate in Europe this week. And the row between two competing

:47:57.:47:59.

committees has now stalled the plan for cuts. Conservative MEP Vicky

:48:00.:48:03.

Ford wants to protect investment in the industry and slow down any

:48:04.:48:11.

reductions. You cannot change the rules for investors overnight when

:48:12.:48:15.

you only made them two years ago, these things need to be looked at in

:48:16.:48:20.

a big picture. We are at a stand off between the industry committee

:48:21.:48:25.

saying let's take more time and the environment committee who are

:48:26.:48:28.

rushing headlong into a new set of rules.

:48:29.:48:30.

But the Greens and the Liberals and Democrats in Europe are backing the

:48:31.:48:33.

move. Andrew Sinclair spoke to Andrew Duff about why he supported

:48:34.:48:37.

the change. He asked him whether supporting reductions in biofuel

:48:38.:48:42.

production was effectively a U`turn. No, it is not, it is not a whole

:48:43.:48:50.

U`turn. We are staying, please develop the industry, but strike a

:48:51.:49:03.

balance between food security and the production of power. The price

:49:04.:49:08.

of both of those things, as we all know, is going up and there is a

:49:09.:49:19.

connection between taking crops out of food and giving them to be in ``

:49:20.:49:27.

energy industry. This has potential to be quite a big damage in the

:49:28.:49:36.

biofuel industry in the East? Many litres are created. There is a ?20

:49:37.:49:39.

million plant, litres are created. There is a ?20

:49:40.:49:46.

there, I have seen, I have spoken to them a lot and they are keen to see

:49:47.:49:57.

a coherent regulation and I think that is the thing that we finally

:49:58.:50:04.

have provided them with. If you are telling them to produce less, surely

:50:05.:50:08.

that will have an impact on the business. We're not telling anyone

:50:09.:50:13.

to do anything, we are requiring them to find a market by `` market

:50:14.:50:21.

price that people can afford. The bio ethanol, the fact that they can

:50:22.:50:26.

grow to 7.5%, which is more than they are doing at the moment, is a

:50:27.:50:34.

clear encouragement for East Anglian industry which in this respect is

:50:35.:50:44.

extremely efficient and modern. So you say that the biofuel industry in

:50:45.:50:49.

our region will continue to thrive if this cap goes ahead. You will

:50:50.:50:55.

still push for a cap? Yes. The clearest judgement I could reach is

:50:56.:51:03.

that cats are needed `` the needed and I will stand on that record in

:51:04.:51:10.

the election next year. What about these manufacturers Western Mark

:51:11.:51:16.

here in the east, the investing heavily. This will impact it,

:51:17.:51:26.

wouldn't it? I don't think it will specifically. The debate was about

:51:27.:51:32.

taking the target from 5%, which it currently is, to 10% or 6%. There is

:51:33.:51:40.

headroom in the target and Andrew Duff was talking about 7.5% in some

:51:41.:51:47.

way. We have to be clear about this policy, it is very damaging to the

:51:48.:52:00.

developing world. There is a massive amount of food insecurity caused by

:52:01.:52:07.

this developing because taking agricultural crops out of the food

:52:08.:52:11.

chain and into fuel has actually increased the price of commodities

:52:12.:52:14.

and food prices. We need to have enough food as well

:52:15.:52:18.

as enough fuel, don't we? Shouldn't land be for food? Ya like it is a

:52:19.:52:24.

serious point and in the developing world, the problems are there to

:52:25.:52:31.

see. But let's look at the region. First, all agricultural producers

:52:32.:52:38.

should have the freedom to use the precious resorts which is the land

:52:39.:52:42.

in East Anglia, whether it is rape seed and beat or food. I cannot get

:52:43.:52:52.

too excited about the five or six or seven and a half target. The second

:52:53.:52:58.

important thing is... The British Sugar plant, I know how important as

:52:59.:53:06.

a source of jobs British Sugar is. And the local plant is important and

:53:07.:53:11.

I think we should defend his industries.

:53:12.:53:13.

Won't the uncertainty scare off any potential investors in new

:53:14.:53:16.

technology, which as we saw in the film, we have in this region? It may

:53:17.:53:28.

do. I personally don't think that biofuels... They link in the way

:53:29.:53:36.

people travel to entirely to the internal combustion engine, we need

:53:37.:53:40.

to be link from that. We need to get away from fossil fees. Most of the

:53:41.:53:47.

biofuels go in at about 5%. So we are still talking about 95% fossil

:53:48.:53:53.

fuels being used in a vehicle. That is seriously damaging to the

:53:54.:53:56.

environment. We need to be thinking much more about electric vehicles

:53:57.:54:01.

and how we reduce carbon in the energy sector to generate clean

:54:02.:54:07.

electricity. Briefly, your party pledged to be the greenest garden ``

:54:08.:54:12.

Government ever. But it seems UK then when it affects industry. By

:54:13.:54:17.

2020, we all agree that 50% of energy should be generated by

:54:18.:54:24.

renewables. We should be supporting it locally. I think biofuels is a

:54:25.:54:29.

part of that. It is jobs for East Anglian, that is what I am worried

:54:30.:54:37.

about. Well the only rail franchise in

:54:38.:54:41.

public ownership is the East Coast mainline which runs from Kings Cross

:54:42.:54:44.

in London through Stevenage and Peterborough to the north. It's just

:54:45.:54:47.

handed the treasury more than ?200 million pounds. This week, the Green

:54:48.:54:51.

Party has been lobbying to keep the franchise public with a 23,000

:54:52.:54:53.

strong petition. They were at Peterborough station talking to

:54:54.:54:56.

travellers. But they don't want to just stop at the East Coast: they're

:54:57.:55:00.

campaigning to bring the entire railway system back into Government

:55:01.:55:08.

hands as franchises run out. The Green Party is behind a nationalised

:55:09.:55:12.

public transport system and a system which works in an integrated fashion

:55:13.:55:17.

and a system which is fair. We don't actually think that people should be

:55:18.:55:21.

paying hidden taxes when they travel, because that falls on fairly

:55:22.:55:25.

on people with small incomes. Attack it sounds like you are harking back

:55:26.:55:31.

to the days of British rail. In Iraq I think a lot of people would want

:55:32.:55:35.

it back. It's not been a great advert for

:55:36.:55:38.

privatisation, the east coast mainline running so much better

:55:39.:55:41.

since it was taken back into Government hands? I think there is a

:55:42.:55:51.

case of selective amnesia here. I don't think turning the clock back

:55:52.:55:55.

is the solution. Do I defend every single privatised line, they could

:55:56.:56:01.

do better. It depends on the operator. I do not think that we

:56:02.:56:05.

should renationalise. It is going back to an age that never existed.

:56:06.:56:11.

We are talking about going forward to a 21st`century different way of

:56:12.:56:17.

doing nationalisation. If you look at the experience of privatisation,

:56:18.:56:20.

we have seen real prices go up for the average person by 23% under

:56:21.:56:25.

privatisation. We have seen all the problems were you have a fragmented

:56:26.:56:32.

system, maintenance separated from the companies and so on. What we are

:56:33.:56:40.

talking about and Caroline Lucas's private members bill which has been

:56:41.:56:44.

taken for a second reading in Parliament is that it is

:56:45.:56:47.

incrementally moved back to a nationalised system. Every time one

:56:48.:56:51.

of these franchises comes back, it can be brought back into... Think of

:56:52.:56:56.

what you could do. If this has proved so successful, ?200 million,

:56:57.:57:03.

why privatise again? This idea of keeping it in public ownership, they

:57:04.:57:10.

enter `` the idea that investment will be paid for by the tax by his

:57:11.:57:15.

ridiculous. Prices will have to be set to make sure that investment is

:57:16.:57:21.

put back into the industry. I think that the idea that if it is not

:57:22.:57:26.

privatised then the tax burden will be coughing up because the

:57:27.:57:29.

maintenance and upkeep has to be paid for and I don't think the

:57:30.:57:33.

experiment or the history of public ownership is significantly better

:57:34.:57:40.

than the privatised alternative. Is it a minute ago that you won't be

:57:41.:57:43.

ideological. That sounded ideological. It is making a

:57:44.:57:50.

profit... do you think British rail was perfect? It was significantly

:57:51.:57:55.

better... We're not talking about going back to British rail. But a

:57:56.:58:02.

different model. Andrew Boswell, would you read nationalised anything

:58:03.:58:08.

else? I would certainly be in favour of nationalising some other

:58:09.:58:13.

industries, as well. I think we lose a lot with the privatisation model.

:58:14.:58:19.

We have to leave it there. They're not doing everything wrong. I need

:58:20.:58:24.

to keep the programme on track. Now, from the state of our army to

:58:25.:58:28.

the safety of our seas, it's all in our 60 second round up with Deborah

:58:29.:58:33.

McGurran. Former Fusilier, John Baron, leading

:58:34.:58:36.

the campaign this week to save second Battalion, the Royal Regiment

:58:37.:58:44.

of Fusiliers. It makes no sense whatsoever, scrapping battalions

:58:45.:58:50.

while probably recruited ones are being saved.

:58:51.:58:52.

And Julian Huppert wants to save sixth form colleges some money. He's

:58:53.:58:55.

written to Michael Gove saying it's unfair that schools are exempt from

:58:56.:58:58.

VAT, but sixth form colleges are not. There is a cross`party group of

:58:59.:59:05.

us trying to really push that, to give the money back to the sixth

:59:06.:59:08.

form colleges so it can be used more usefully.

:59:09.:59:09.

There's growing speculation that money from China could pave the way

:59:10.:59:13.

for a new nuclear power station in Suffolk.

:59:14.:59:17.

And support grew for Alistair Burt MP at PMQs after he lost his foreign

:59:18.:59:23.

affairs job in the reshuffle. But bad news for the Coastguard

:59:24.:59:26.

centre at Walton`on`the`Naze which will close in June 2015, the

:59:27.:59:28.

Government has confirmed. Andrew Boswell, what about a Chinese

:59:29.:59:46.

backed Sizewell? Nuclear energy is not necessarily carbon free, but I

:59:47.:59:53.

am concerned to see the Government going down the nuclear route. We

:59:54.:59:57.

don't know how to solve the waste problem, there is still waste from

:59:58.:00:02.

1957 that has not been cleared up. We have seen things that happened at

:00:03.:00:09.

Fukushima, and there is a huge amount we can do with renewable

:00:10.:00:14.

energy. Actually, George Osborne made a big mistake in terms of

:00:15.:00:18.

putting off investors in his speech to the Conservative Party prop ``

:00:19.:00:22.

party conference when he made the comment about not being... That put

:00:23.:00:30.

off investors. They comment on that. George Osborne talking about the

:00:31.:00:37.

links with China, what about these links with Chinese industry? I am

:00:38.:00:43.

quite relaxed. There are security issues, but we have foreign

:00:44.:00:48.

ownership... Why are their security issues? They are a superpower. There

:00:49.:01:02.

are security issues, nuclear is something strategically very

:01:03.:01:05.

important. We have to be a bit careful, but we have East Anglia

:01:06.:01:09.

docks which are owned by far Eastern companies, I cannot get excited

:01:10.:01:13.

about foreign ownership. Do we need nuclear? Of course we do. Thank you

:01:14.:01:19.

both very much for joining us today. That is all for now. As always, you

:01:20.:01:24.

can keep in touch via our website when you will also find links to our

:01:25.:01:27.

blocks for all the latest. We will when you will also find links to our

:01:28.:01:30.

down immigration, but not in any way which links in with this. Thank you

:01:31.:01:34.

to both of you for being my guests today.

:01:35.:01:43.

Are the Lib Dems like a wonky shopping trolley? Why is Nick Clegg

:01:44.:01:51.

kicking off over free schools? And what about Boris and George's love

:01:52.:01:57.

bombing of China? All questions for The Week Ahead. We are joined now by

:01:58.:02:04.

the former Home Office minister and Liberal Democrat MP Jeremy Browne.

:02:05.:02:08.

Jeremy Browne, let me ask you this key question - ??GAPNEXT who is in

:02:09.:02:15.

the ascendancy in your party, those who would fear to the left, or those

:02:16.:02:22.

who would fear to the centre? The point I was making in the interview

:02:23.:02:26.

that I gave to the times was that I want us to be unambiguously and on

:02:27.:02:37.

up genetically -- and unapologetically a Liberal party. I

:02:38.:02:41.

do not want us to be craving the approval of columnists like Polly

:02:42.:02:46.

Toynbee. I do not want us to be a pale imitation of the Labour Party.

:02:47.:02:51.

I think we should be proud and unambiguously a authentic Liberal

:02:52.:02:55.

party. That is my ambition for the party. If it is, as you put it,

:02:56.:02:59.

fearing to the left, then I think that is a mistake, I think we should

:03:00.:03:04.

be on the liberal centre ground But is it actually veering to the left,

:03:05.:03:10.

your party? I think there is a danger when a party, or any

:03:11.:03:14.

organisation, feels that it is in a difficult position, to look

:03:15.:03:22.

inwards, to look for reassuring familiar policy positions. I do not

:03:23.:03:27.

want us to be the party which looks inwards and speaks to the 9% of

:03:28.:03:32.

people who are minded to support us already. I want us to look outwards

:03:33.:03:36.

and speak to the 91% of the population, for whom I think we have

:03:37.:03:40.

got a good story to tell about the contribution we have made to getting

:03:41.:03:42.

the deficit down, cutting crime keeping interest rates low, and

:03:43.:03:49.

also, distinctive Liberal Democrat policies for example on income tax

:03:50.:03:53.

and pupil premiums. If we look like we are a party which is uneasy and

:03:54.:03:56.

ambivalent about our role in government, people will not give us

:03:57.:04:00.

credit for the successes of the government, and we will not be able

:04:01.:04:03.

to claim the authorship which we should be able to claim for our

:04:04.:04:07.

policies excesses in government I want us to be confident, outward

:04:08.:04:13.

looking, and authentically liberal. If we are that, people real sense

:04:14.:04:17.

that and they will respond positively. Does that not therefore

:04:18.:04:22.

make it rather strange that Nick Craig should choose to distance

:04:23.:04:26.

himself from the coalition's schools policy? Well, I support free

:04:27.:04:34.

schools, I think they are a liberal policy. Education is a fascinating

:04:35.:04:43.

area, so let's explore it a bit We have had two very significant and

:04:44.:04:46.

troubling reports in the last fortnight, one from Alan Milburn,

:04:47.:04:50.

saying that social mobility has stalled in this country, in other

:04:51.:04:53.

words, what your parents do is a reliable guide to how you will get

:04:54.:04:58.

on in life and the other saying that Britain lags behind our

:04:59.:05:00.

competitors, the other industrialised countries, in terms

:05:01.:05:04.

of the educational attainment of 15-year-olds. Both of those are

:05:05.:05:10.

worrying. We have a scandalous situation in this country where two

:05:11.:05:12.

thirds of children from disadvantaged backgrounds are

:05:13.:05:18.

failing to get five Grade A to Grade C. Some get none at all. If we were

:05:19.:05:26.

the world leaders in education, we could have an interesting

:05:27.:05:29.

conversation about how we are able to maintain that position, but we

:05:30.:05:32.

are not. Whether there are good things one less good things which

:05:33.:05:35.

have happened in our schools over the last 30-40 years, we really need

:05:36.:05:39.

to raise our game and stop letting young people down who need a good

:05:40.:05:44.

quality education in order to realise their full potential in

:05:45.:05:47.

life. It sounds like you do not share Mr Clegg's designations? I

:05:48.:05:54.

think there are two big dangers for us as a party. I do not think we

:05:55.:06:00.

should be instinctively statist and I do not think either we should be

:06:01.:06:03.

instinctively in favour of the status quo. I want us to have a

:06:04.:06:08.

restless, radical, energetic, liberal reforming instinct, which is

:06:09.:06:12.

about putting more power and responsible at the end opportunity

:06:13.:06:16.

in the hands of individual people. As I say, we look at the education

:06:17.:06:20.

system, of course there are good teachers and good outcomes in some

:06:21.:06:23.

schools and for some pupils, overall, our performance in this

:06:24.:06:29.

country is not good enough, so the status quo has not been a successful

:06:30.:06:33.

stop I am interested in how we can innovate. -- has not been a success.

:06:34.:06:47.

Are the Tories wooing you? Well I do not know if that is the right

:06:48.:06:51.

word, I have been reported, and I have set myself, that the

:06:52.:06:59.

Conservatives have, if you like made some advances or generous

:07:00.:07:03.

suggestions to me, but I am a liberal, and I am a Liberal

:07:04.:07:06.

Democrat. I have been a member of the Lib Dems since the party was

:07:07.:07:09.

founded, I joined when I was 18 years old. I have campaigned

:07:10.:07:14.

tirelessly for the Liberal Democrats for my entire adult life, so I am

:07:15.:07:19.

not about to go and join another political party. I would turn this

:07:20.:07:23.

on its head, let me put it like this, I think there are quite a few

:07:24.:07:29.

liberals in the other political parties, people like Alan Milburn,

:07:30.:07:32.

who wrote a report on social mobility, people like Nick Bowles in

:07:33.:07:37.

the Conservative Party. Our ambition, as Liberal Democrats,

:07:38.:07:40.

should be to attract liberals from other political parties, and no

:07:41.:07:50.

political party, to the Lib Dems. Just briefly, have you suggested

:07:51.:07:55.

that the Tories do not run a candidate against you in the next

:07:56.:08:00.

election? I have not suggested anything of the sort. The

:08:01.:08:04.

Conservatives have to make their own decisions about which candidates

:08:05.:08:08.

they select, and I will take on whoever is select it from each of

:08:09.:08:12.

the political parties. Thank you for joining us. There is a danger not

:08:13.:08:25.

from Jeremy Browne, but from Mr Clegg, in that, having been part of

:08:26.:08:31.

a coalition which has gone through an enormous squeeze in living

:08:32.:08:33.

standards for three years, it did not look like both was coming, it

:08:34.:08:37.

was being regarded overall as a failure, but now, it may be turning

:08:38.:08:43.

the corner, so why would you then start to disassociate yourself from

:08:44.:08:48.

the coalition's policies? Yes, the danger for Nick Clegg is that he

:08:49.:08:53.

makes the Liberal Democrats looked like visitors in a guesthouse, a

:08:54.:08:56.

guesthouse which is owned by the Conservatives. As you say, they were

:08:57.:09:01.

there for the three difficult years, and just at the moment when the

:09:02.:09:03.

economy seems to be coming right, and we are getting some nice growth,

:09:04.:09:08.

they seek to distance themselves. It is interesting that Jeremy Browne

:09:09.:09:13.

came out with the outrageously disloyal statement that he supported

:09:14.:09:17.

free schools statement. That is a disloyal Liberal Democrat view, but

:09:18.:09:21.

on Thursday, of course, the Liberal Democrat party was in favour of free

:09:22.:09:24.

schools, because in that statement about the Al-Madinah school, David

:09:25.:09:28.

Laws made a passionate defence about what Nick Clegg is now criticising,

:09:29.:09:32.

which is having on qualified teachers. If things are now coming

:09:33.:09:41.

right, the big risk for the Liberal Democrats always was that they would

:09:42.:09:46.

not get the credit anyway. Well if they diss associate themselves like

:09:47.:09:48.

this, they definitely will not get the credit. It depends which voters

:09:49.:09:54.

their opinion poll ratings are dire, he spoke about 9%, and sometimes it

:09:55.:09:59.

is less than that. So, where are they going to get those voters

:10:00.:10:03.

from? They have not got those anti-Iraq war voters. Is it not

:10:04.:10:10.

Mission impossible, getting Labour voters test surely the left of the

:10:11.:10:14.

Lib Dem vote is peeling off towards labour, not away from Labour? I

:10:15.:10:20.

wonder to what extent, and this might be speculation, this might be

:10:21.:10:26.

organised and arranged, that Cameron and Clegg both understand that they

:10:27.:10:31.

have groups of voters that they need to get, so they need to send

:10:32.:10:34.

messages out to different groups, it looks like a bit of a setup to me.

:10:35.:10:43.

Boris in China, along with boy George - let's have a look... Who,

:10:44.:10:52.

according to JK Rowling, was Harry Potter's first girlfriend? That s

:10:53.:10:58.

right, and she is Chinese overseas student, is that not right at

:10:59.:11:05.

Hogwarts? Actually, we are not sure it is right, she is actually from

:11:06.:11:09.

Scotland. It is not only London which has a diverse society. Putting

:11:10.:11:16.

that to one side, we are inviting the Chinese into finance our power

:11:17.:11:20.

stations, to run big banks in the cities, we are giving out more visas

:11:21.:11:24.

to them, are we right to embrace the Dragon? What worries me about the

:11:25.:11:28.

power stations then, it is 30% of investment, and it reminds me a lot

:11:29.:11:34.

of PFI, the idea that you do not want a huge investment on your

:11:35.:11:38.

balance sheet, but if somebody bails out halfway through, we cannot stop

:11:39.:11:44.

with a half finished power station. It is EDF, the French company, which

:11:45.:11:48.

will actually build it, and we will be guaranteeing the debt for them.

:11:49.:11:55.

It is extraordinary that there has been so little adverse comment after

:11:56.:11:59.

George Osborne and Boris's trip to China, and is it now really the UK

:12:00.:12:04.

Government policy, to sell Britain to the Chinese? There was a debate

:12:05.:12:13.

in government about this, as they were getting ready for the trip and

:12:14.:12:18.

there will be at some point in the next six months be a David Cameron

:12:19.:12:22.

trip to China. He has had to wait three years because they were

:12:23.:12:24.

annoyed about him meeting the Dalai llama. There were some people in the

:12:25.:12:28.

Foreign Office who were saying, fine, but tread carefully. George

:12:29.:12:34.

Osborne's view is absolutely not, get in there, I do not care about

:12:35.:12:40.

any of these problems, get stuck in. I think he is storing up five

:12:41.:12:47.

years since the financial crisis, Chinese banks are being given a

:12:48.:12:50.

special, light touch regulatory regime. What could possibly go

:12:51.:13:01.

wrong?! There is lots to see. Energy prices have continued to dominate

:13:02.:13:08.

this week. We have got the EDF deal, whereby we are going to be giving

:13:09.:13:11.

them twice the market rate for their energy. But for the coalition, all

:13:12.:13:19.

eyes are on the GDP figures. The expectation and hope is that the

:13:20.:13:23.

recovery will be stronger than the figures have suggested so far, on

:13:24.:13:29.

which basis it can influence the result of the next general

:13:30.:13:34.

election. The chief economist at the Bank of England was saying on

:13:35.:13:37.

Twitter last week that the Bank of England may now bring forward the

:13:38.:13:41.

assessment when it says, maybe we are going to have to change monetary

:13:42.:13:45.

policy, if unemployment goes below 7%. And we know what that means

:13:46.:13:54.

interest rates. The Bank of England on Twitter! That is it for today.

:13:55.:13:59.

The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two. I will be back with

:14:00.:14:02.

prime Minster 's questions on Wednesday, and of course, we will be

:14:03.:14:06.

back at 11 o'clock on BBC One next Sunday.

:14:07.:14:13.

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