Browse content similar to 20/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Good morning and welcome to The Sunday Politics. Alex Salmond says a | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
vote for Scottish independence would be an act of national self belief. | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
His deputy joins us live from the SNP conference in Perth. Is | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
Whitehall meddling too much in modern affairs? The Communities | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
Secretary, Eric Pickles, joins me for The Sunday Interview. Senior | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
coppers will be answering questions this | :01:05. | :01:05. | |
Food or fuel? The argument over what We will be | :01:06. | :01:15. | |
Food or fuel? The argument over what we are growing in our fields. What | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
Food or fuel? The argument over what London, does the London assembly | :01:19. | :01:19. | |
have one arm tied behind its back? All of that to come. And the Home | :01:20. | :01:32. | |
Office minister sacked by Nick Clegg, who says his party is like a | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
wonky shopping trolley, which keeps veering off to the left. He will | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
join us live at noon. With me to unpack all of this, Nick Watt, Helen | :01:43. | :01:50. | |
Lewis and Iain Martin. They will be tweeting throughout the programme, | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
using hashtag #bbcsp. It is the last day of the Scottish national party | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
conference in Perth. We have discovered that Alex Salmond has | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
been on the same diet as Beyonce. The SNP leader compared his attempts | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
to lose weight with the campaign for independence - lots achieved so far, | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
20 more to do. In a moment, I will be joined by the deputy leader of | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. First they report on the independence | :02:18. | :02:28. | |
campaign. September 18 2014, the date of destiny for Scotland, the | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
day when these campaigners hope its people will decide to vote yes for | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
independence. In a recent poll, only 14% said they knew enough to vote | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
either way. That is unlikely to change any time soon. I think the | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
Scottish people will be going to the polls next year still not knowing an | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
awful lot of stuff which is important, because the outcome, in | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
terms of taxation, debt, exactly what will happen to the allocation | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
of assets between the two countries, will come about as a result of | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
negotiation between a Scottish government and the UK Government. | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
That is not stuff which will be known year. At the moment, polls | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
suggest Scotland will decide to remain within the UK. A recent | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
survey found that 44% of those questioned planned to vote no, 5% | :03:18. | :03:24. | |
yes. But interestingly, the undecideds were at 31%, suggesting | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
that Alex Salmond's task might be tough but not impossible. There are | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
a number of reasons which make a vanilla campaign a good idea. It | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
does not put off cautious voters, it allows for people to imagine their | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
own version of what independence will be like, and crucially, it | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
allows for the yes campaign to take advantage of any mistakes by the no | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
campaign. In other words, the yes campaign are not out there with big | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
ideas, they are just waiting for the no campaign to trip up. What we do | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
know is that whatever happens next September, Scotland will be getting | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
more power. From 2016, a separate income tax regime will come into | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
force, giving the Scottish Parliament control over billions of | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
pounds of revenue. What we do not know yet is how the alternative | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
would pan out. There are issues which would be raised by | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
independence, issues about how the national debt is allocated, what the | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
currency will look like, how an independent Scotland would balance | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
the books, because it would have a bigger job to do, even down the | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
Whitehall government has to do. Those are really big issues, which a | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
Scottish government would have to face, on top of whatever negotiation | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
it had to have with the UK Government. The Scottish | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
government's White Paper on independence, two to be published | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
within weeks, should fill in some of the banks. But how Scotland votes in | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
September may yet be determined by what it feels rather than what it | :04:54. | :05:00. | |
knows. And joining me from Perth is Scotland's Deputy First Minister, | :05:01. | :05:02. | |
Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon, we meet again! Hello, Andrew. Former | :05:03. | :05:09. | |
leader of the SNP Gordon Wilson said, if this referendum fails, it | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
will fail on the basis that people put their British identity ahead of | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
their Scottish identity, so we have got to attack on the British | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
identity - what does he mean? Gordon Wilson is a very respected, much | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
loved former leader of the SNP. My view is that I do not think the | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
independence referendum is really about identity. I am secure and | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
proud of my Scottish identity, but this is a decision about where power | :05:39. | :05:45. | |
best lies. Do decision-making powers best lie here in Scotland, with a | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
government which is directly accountable to the people of | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
Scotland, or does it best lie in Westminster, with governments which, | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
very often, people in Scotland do not vote for? That is the issue at | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
the heart of the campaign. Let me just clarify, you do not agree with | :06:02. | :06:11. | |
him, that you need to go on the attack with regard to the British | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
identity of Scottish people? No I do not think we are required to | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
attack British identity. It is absolutely compatible for somebody | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
to feel a sense of British identity but still support Scottish | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
independence, because Scottish independence is about a transfer of | :06:29. | :06:34. | |
power. It is about good government, accountable government, ensuring | :06:35. | :06:36. | |
that decisions are taking here in Scotland, by people who have got the | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
biggest stake in getting those decisions right. I represent a | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
constituency in the south side of Glasgow, and if you speak to many | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
people in my constituency, if you ask them their national identity, | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
many of them would say Irish, Pakistani, Indian, Polish, and many | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
of them will vote yes next year because they understand the issue at | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
stake, which is the issue of where decisions are best taken. It looks | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
like you are changing tack ex-, you have realised the softly softly | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
approach, of saying that actually, nothing much will change, we will | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
still have the Queen, the currency, and all the rest of it, is moving | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
over towards voting for a left-wing future for Scotland... Well, I know | :07:19. | :07:25. | |
that what we are doing is pointing out is pointing out the choice | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
between two futures. If we vote yes, we take our own future into our own | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
hands. We make sure that for ever after, we have governments which | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
will be in demented policies which we have voted for. If we do not | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
become independent, then we continue to run the risk of having | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
governments not only that we do not vote for, but often, that Scotland | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
rejects. We are seeing the dismantling of our system of social | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
security. There are politicians in all of the UK parties who are | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
itching to cut Scotland's share of spending. So Scotland faces a choice | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
of two futures, and it is right to point out the positive consequences | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
of voting yes, but also the consequences of voting no. But you | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
are promising to reverse benefit cuts and increase the minimum wage. | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
You would renationalise the Royal Mail, though how you would do that | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
nobody knows. You are promising to cut energy bills. These are the kind | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
of promises that parties make in a general election campaign, not in a | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
once in 300 years extra stench or choice. Is the future of Scotland | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
really going to be decided on the size of the minimum wage? -- | :08:41. | :08:50. | |
existential choice. A yes vote would be about bringing decision-making | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
powers home, but we are also setting out some of the things an SNP | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
government would do, if elected A decision on what the first | :09:02. | :09:03. | |
government of an independent Scotland would be would not be taken | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
in the referendum, that decision would be taken in the 2016 election. | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
And all of the parties will put forward their offers to the | :09:14. | :09:15. | |
electorate. We are setting out some of the things which we think it is | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
important to be prioritised. These are things which have a lot of | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
support in Scotland. We see the pain being felt by people because of the | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
rising cost of energy bills, there is widespread opposition to some of | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
the welfare cuts. So, we are setting out the options which are open to | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
Scotland, but only open to Scotland if we have the powers of | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
independence. Given that you seem to be promising aid permanent socialist | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
near Varna, if Scotland is independent, if you are right of | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
centre in Scotland, and I understand that is a minority pursuit where you | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
are, but it would be a big mistake to vote for independence, in that | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
case, wouldn't it? No, because the whole point of independence is that | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
people get the country they want, and the government a vote for. So, | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
right of centre people should not vote for independence? No, because | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
people who are of that political persuasion in Scotland get the | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
opportunity to vote for parties which represent that persuasion and | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
if they can persuade a majority to vote likewise, then they will get a | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
government which reflects that. That is the essence of independence. | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
Right now, we have a Westminster government which most people in | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
Scotland rejected at the last general election. That is hardly | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
democratic. It is right and proper that the SNP, as the current | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
government, points out the opportunities that would be opening | :10:44. | :10:58. | |
up. Can I just clarify one thing, when we spoke on The Daily Politics | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
earlier last week, you made it clear to me that Alex Salmond, we know he | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
wants to debate with David Cameron, but you made it clear to me that he | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
would debate with Alistair Darling as well, and Mr Carmichael... He | :11:13. | :11:22. | |
made it clear yesterday. Well, he said to the BBC this morning that he | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
would only debate with these people after he had had a debate with Mr | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
Cameron, so who is right? I was making the point last week, and Alex | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
Salmond was making it yesterday and this morning - let's have that | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
agreement by David Cameron to come and debate with Alex Salmond, and | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
then Alex Salmond, just like me will debate with allcomers. So if he | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
does not get the David Cameron debate, then he will not do the | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
others, is that right? Let's focus on is wading David Cameron to do the | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
right thing. So, in other words he will not debate, yes or no? Members | :12:00. | :12:08. | |
of the SNP government... We know that, but what about Alex Salmond? | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
He said yesterday, we will debate with all sorts of people, including | :12:15. | :12:17. | |
the people you have spoken about, but David Cameron should not be let | :12:18. | :12:33. | |
off the hook just putting aside the independence issue, energy prices | :12:34. | :12:41. | |
are now even playing into the SNP, so every political party has to do | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
something about energy prices. Yes, it is clearly it is interesting is | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
the difference between the SNP and the Labour approach. Ed Miliband | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
electrified the party conference season when he said he would freeze | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
energy prices for 20 months, seemingly having an amazing control | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
over the energy market, where we know that essentially what pushes | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
prices up the wholesale prices on world market. What Nicola Sturgeon | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
is talking about is actually saying, this amount is added to your bills | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
for green levies, and we are going to take them off your bills and they | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
will be paid out of general taxation in an independent Scotland. That is | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
a credible government, making a credible case, very different to | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
what Labour is saying, although playing to the same agenda. So, | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
Labour has got a populist policy, the SNP has also got a populist | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
policy, the one group of people that do not have a decent response to | :13:40. | :13:48. | |
this is the coalition? Exactly. What the SNP also have is a magic money | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
pot, so that speech yesterday, you are right, it was very left wing, | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
social democratic, but there was none of the icing like Labour has | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
been talking about, with fiscal responsibility. I think that is the | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
difference between the two. We know what the Tories would really like to | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
do, all of these green levies which were put on our bills in the good | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
times, when they were going to be the greenest party ever, the Tories | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
would like to say, let's just wipe out some of them, put the rest on to | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
some general government spending, but they have a problem, which is in | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Not only that, they really | :14:30. | :14:38. | |
are stuck now. But there is something in the free schools debate | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
this morning, the parties are now determined to send a message to | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
their potential voters at the next election, that they are trying to | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
fight their coalition partners. Do not expected any change in coalition | :14:52. | :14:54. | |
policy or free schools policy before the election, but we can expect to | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
hear the parties try to pretend that they are taking on their coalition | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
partners. Mr Clegg has said, we would put this free schools policy | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
into our manifesto, so is it not possible that the Tories will say, | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
if you give us an overall majority, we will cut your electricity bill | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
because we will get rid of these green levies? I think that is | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
entirely possible. The Tories know that they are stuck on this, they do | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
not have a response to Ed Miliband. How much should ministers in | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
Whitehall medal in local decisions across England? In opposition, David | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
Cameron said he wanted a fundamental shift of power from Whitehall to | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
local people. He said, when one size fits all solution is... | :15:40. | :15:58. | |
Eric Pickles described it as "an historic shift of power". But the | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
Communitites and Local Government Secretary can't stop meddling. In | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
the past few months Mr Pickles has tried to ban councils from using | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
CCTV cameras and "spy cars" to fine motorists... Told councils how to | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
act quicker to shut down illegal travellers' sites... Criticised | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
councils who want to raise council tax... Insisted councils release | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
land to residents hoping to build their own property... And stated new | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
homes should have a special built in bin storage section. It seems not a | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
week goes by without a policy announcement from the hyper active | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
Mr Pickles. So is the government still committed to localism, or is | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
it all about centralism now? And Communities Secretary Eric | :16:44. | :16:46. | |
Pickles joins me now for the Sunday Interview. | :16:47. | :17:00. | |
Welcome. Nice to be here. You said in July you were going to give town | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
halls the power to wreak their local magic. So why issue diktats from | :17:07. | :17:15. | |
Westminster? It is not about giving power to local councils, it is going | :17:16. | :17:22. | |
beyond that to local people. If local councils refuse to open up | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
their books, we have to go straight to local people. You have attacked | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
councillors using so-called spy cameras to enforce parking rules. | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
Why is that your business? Because there is an injustice taking place. | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
You cannot use fines to raise money and that is plainly happening. If | :17:46. | :17:52. | |
you get yourself a ticket from a CCTV, it could be days or weeks | :17:53. | :17:59. | |
before that lands on your doorstep and you have virtually no | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
possibility to be able to defend yourself. But just leave it to | :18:04. | :18:09. | |
people to vote out the council then. We are trying to enforce the law and | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
it clearly states that you cannot use parking fines in order to fund | :18:15. | :18:22. | |
general rate. So why are you not taking them to court if they are | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
breaking the law? There have been a number of court cases taken by local | :18:27. | :18:34. | |
residents. I am there to stand by local residents. Your even trying to | :18:35. | :18:41. | |
micromanage, allowing motorist s to park for 15 minutes in local high | :18:42. | :18:48. | |
street. Why is that your business? I'm trying to ensure that local | :18:49. | :18:51. | |
authorities understand the importance of the town centre. If | :18:52. | :18:59. | |
you look at all opinion polls, right now there is a five-minute leeway | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
but there are many cases of people being jumped on by parking officials | :19:03. | :19:09. | |
for quite trivial things. It is about saying, surely I can go and | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
get a pint of milk. But a party that dines out on localism, that is a | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
matter for local people, not the men in Whitehall. I have to be on the | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
side of local people. That person who wants to go and get a pint of | :19:27. | :19:34. | |
milk. Ultimately it is a matter for them. It is a matter for the | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
council. But a little bit of criticism is not a bad thing. You | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
have now declared war on the wheelie bin and suggested that new homes | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
should have built in storage sections. You just cannot help | :19:49. | :19:59. | |
meddling! I suppose that is possible. You are a meddler! I am in | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
charge of building regulations and planning. So I may have some | :20:06. | :20:16. | |
responsibility there. Another one, interfering in local planning | :20:17. | :20:25. | |
decisions. A couple of places, you ruled in favour of developers. They | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
want to build over 200 houses against the wishes of the parish and | :20:31. | :20:38. | |
district councils. The local MP said the Secretary of State's decision | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
runs roughshod over any concept of localism. Now I have to be a | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
blushing violet because of course this is still potentially subject to | :20:50. | :20:57. | |
judicial review. I have to act properly. And Apple went is entitled | :20:58. | :21:11. | |
to justice. -- an applicant. A local authority has a duty to ensure that | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
is adequate housing for people in their area. This was not a decision | :21:17. | :21:24. | |
that I took as a personal decision, it was on the advice of an | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
inspector. But you contradict what David Cameron himself said in 2 12, | :21:28. | :21:35. | |
he spoke about a vision where we give communities much more say and | :21:36. | :21:42. | |
local control. People in villages fear big housing estates being | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
plonked from above. You have just done exactly that. After a proper | :21:47. | :21:59. | |
quasi judicial enquiry. What we have is planning framework which local | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
people can decide where it goes But they cannot say, nothing here. They | :22:04. | :22:10. | |
have to have a five-year housing supply. Previous to this government | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
decided exactly where houses would go, now local people can take the | :22:16. | :22:23. | |
lead. Anna Silbury said because of the way your department rules, local | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
authorities now have no alternative but to agree development on green | :22:27. | :22:36. | |
belt land. I do not accept that I think around Nottingham there are | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
particular problems with regards to the green belt. The matter has been | :22:41. | :22:48. | |
referred back. the green belt. The matter has been | :22:49. | :22:59. | |
want to see development on the green belt but on Brownfield site. We want | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
to see underused land. But you have to remember why we have the green | :23:06. | :23:05. | |
belt. Not to remember why we have the green | :23:06. | :23:13. | |
nice, it is their to prevent conurbations bumping into one | :23:14. | :23:13. | |
another. Your conurbations bumping into one | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
is vocal about the need to deal what he calls the historic under | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
provision of housing. Shelter says we need 250,000 new homes per year. | :23:24. | :23:35. | |
provision of housing. Shelter says Houston statistics are getting | :23:36. | :23:35. | |
there, but nowhere near that. - housing. You cannot | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
there, but nowhere near that. - localism agenda as well as meeting | :23:39. | :23:40. | |
housing demand. I do not accept that. We inherited a position where | :23:41. | :23:53. | |
the lowest level of building since the 1920s was in place. But it has | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
steadily improved. It does take a while. You cannot have a localism | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
agenda where people call the shots on housing as well as meeting the | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
housing demand. People have a duty to ensure that future generations | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
have somewhere to live. You cannot pull up the drawbridge. There is | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
nothing incompatible between that and localism. Because someone has to | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
be the voice of those people who are going to live there and to make sure | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
there is the proper amount. Plans now exist for more than 150,000 | :24:34. | :24:40. | |
homes to be built on protected land, including the green belt. That will | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
mean riding over local concerns Each application will be taken on | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
its own merits. To suggest that there is an assault on the green | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
belt is as far from the truth as you can imagine. Should Andrew Mitchell | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
get his job back if the years exonerated? I would be honoured to | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
sit with Andrew Mitchell in the Cabinet. I have always believed his | :25:04. | :25:11. | |
version. But it is a matter for the Prime Minister who he has in | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
government. He would have no problem in seeing him back in Cabinet? | :25:16. | :25:23. | |
Absolutely not. Your mother answered Vulcan junior minister Nick balls | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
said about the Royal Charter for the press, there's nothing we have done | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
that troubles me as much as this. Is that your view? It is not. I accept | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
the compromise agreement put together. If the press want to have | :25:38. | :25:44. | |
an additional protection that the Royal Charter offers, then they can | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
move into the system. But if they want to continue independently that | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
is acceptable to me. But you previously echoed Thomas Jefferson, | :25:56. | :26:02. | |
you said for a free society to operate the river of a free press | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
has to flow without restriction That is what I said at the time We | :26:08. | :26:15. | |
had to find a compromise. And that seems to me to be a better | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
compromise. Let me just show you this little montage of pictures that | :26:22. | :26:33. | |
we have. I could not be happier Then you are in the Desert and there | :26:34. | :26:42. | |
you are in San Francisco. Then you are in the casino. That is my | :26:43. | :26:56. | |
personal favourite. These students took a cardboard cutout of you and | :26:57. | :27:02. | |
took it round the world with them. Did you ever think you would become | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
a student icon? I always felt secretly that that might happen one | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
day. But it came earlier in my career than I thought! Why would | :27:14. | :27:21. | |
they do that? I think they thought I could do with a bit of an airing! I | :27:22. | :27:29. | |
went to Norfolk earlier, but that looks better. Thank you. | :27:30. | :27:37. | |
On Wednesday senior police folk including chief constables, will be | :27:38. | :27:40. | |
questioned by MPs about what's become known as Plebgate. That's the | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
incident in Downing Street last year which led to the resignation of the | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
government chief whip Andrew Mitchell. Last week the Independent | :27:48. | :27:49. | |
Police Complaints Commission questioned the "honesty and | :27:50. | :27:51. | |
integrity" of police officers who met Mr Mitchell following the row. | :27:52. | :27:57. | |
So do scandals like this affect public trust in the police? Here's | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
Adam Fleming. It's a story of politics, the | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
police, and CCTV. No, not Andrew Mitchell, but an MP's researcher | :28:11. | :28:13. | |
called Alex Bryce and his partner Iain Feis. | :28:14. | :28:19. | |
It started on a summer night in 2011. They'd been in Parliament | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
After a few words with a police officer, Ian was wrestled to the | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
ground. Alex came to have a look and the same thing happened to him. Both | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
were arrested and charged. These pictures emerged on day one of their | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
trial. A trial that was halted because the police version of events | :28:38. | :28:44. | |
just didn't match the footage. A lot of people with incidence like this | :28:45. | :28:51. | |
which we experienced, people think there is no smoke without fire. So | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
when we said we did nothing wrong, people would think police just would | :28:56. | :29:02. | |
not do that. There is always that underlying view that some people | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
have. I think that has been challenged and people who know us | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
believe that. This year the Met apologised and paid compensation. | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
And it's led to an unlikely sort of friendship. When the truth came out | :29:15. | :29:21. | |
about the Andrew Mitchell story I actually sent him an e-mail to | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
congratulate him about the truth coming out. He did send a reply | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
acknowledging that. So where are we with THAT saga? Remember last | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
September? Andrew Mitchell had a row with police at the gates of Downing | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
Street about his bike. He lost his job as chief whip after accusations | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
he called the officers plebs. That, he's always denied. This week the | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
police watchdog the IPCC suggested that three officers may have lied | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
about a meeting with him at the height of the scandal. Add that to | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
the charge sheet of cases that haven't exactly flattered the | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
police. Like the revelation of a cover up over Hillsborough. The | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
prosecution of an officer from the Met over the death of Ian Tomlinson | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
during protests in 2009. Along with news that undercover officers were | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
told to smear the family of Stephen Lawrence. During Thursday's protest | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
by teachers in Westminster the police operation was really, really | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
relaxed. And recent scandals have done nothing to affect society's | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
view of the boys and girls in blue - or should I say hi-vis. About 6 % of | :30:29. | :30:31. | |
the public say they trust the police. And that's not budged since | :30:32. | :30:39. | |
pollsters started measuring it 0 years ago. | :30:40. | :30:48. | |
Of course, in Britain, crime is down, so the perception might be | :30:49. | :30:54. | |
that the police is doing a good job. And the rank-and-file recently | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
seamed pretty chipper at this awards ceremony. Is it a good time to be a | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
police officer? It is a good time. Despite all of the headlines? Still | :31:04. | :31:10. | |
a good time. But speak to officers privately, and they say Plebgate is | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
affecting how the public see them. Some of them also think | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
politicians, the Tories especially, are enjoying that a little too much. | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
Adam Fleming reporting there. Going head-to-head on this issue of trust | :31:24. | :31:30. | |
in the police, a Sunday Mirror columnist and Peter Kirkham, former | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
chief inspector. Peter Kirkham, let me come to you first. Plebgate, the | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
cover-ups over John Charles De menace, the death of Ian Tomlinson, | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
the industrial deception over Hillsborough, why is the culture of | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
deceit so prevalent in the police? I do not agree there is a cultural | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
deceit. These are all individual incidents which raise individual | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
issues. I would suggest that your short headline summarising each of | :32:03. | :32:05. | |
them has taken the most negative view of it. How can you be positive | :32:06. | :32:14. | |
about the police's behaviour over Hillsborough? It remains to be seen | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
with the inquiry but we are probably talking about a handful of senior | :32:19. | :32:20. | |
officers, dealing with the paperwork. Well over 100 testimonies | :32:21. | :32:31. | |
being doctored by the police. Well, those testimonies were true to start | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
with, so the officers have told the truth, and they have been changed | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
for some reason. By the police. By the police all lawyers we have got | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
this thing that the police conflates everything. There are 43 forces | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
there is ACPO, there is the College Of Policing... People say it was a | :32:52. | :32:59. | |
handful of police officers, it wasn't, it was six senior police | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
officers who were alleged to have doctored 106 D4 statements. Even | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
today we are hearing that more than 1000 officers are yet to be spoken | :33:08. | :33:16. | |
to about Hillsborough. -- 164. Do we pretend that Hillsborough, and some | :33:17. | :33:19. | |
of these examples, are the exception rather than the rule? What is the | :33:20. | :33:26. | |
evidence that this is now prevalent in our police? I think there is a | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
lot of evidence, and Plebgate is probably the thing which has | :33:32. | :33:34. | |
clinched it. The public want to know, how deep does this girl? The | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
audacity of a group of policemen who think they can set up a Cabinet | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
minister. Five of those who were arrested and bailed still have not | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
been charged. One of those officers actually wrote an e-mail pretending | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
to be a member of the public. I do not see what the problem is in | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
prosecuting them for that. Taking Plebgate, there are loads of | :33:58. | :34:00. | |
different bits of that incident There is the officers on duty in | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
Downing Street, the issue of who leaked the story to the Sun, there | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
are the officers who claim to have been there who would appear not to | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
have been there, and then we have got the West Midlands meeting | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
issue, which has sort of been resolved this week. There has been | :34:16. | :34:24. | |
misconduct. But at a lower level. But it is the audacity of an | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
organisation which thinks it can take on an elected minister and | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
destroy him for their own political purposes, at a time when the | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
Government are cutting please pay, when they are freezing their | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
pensions and reducing their numbers. It looks very much to all of us the | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
public, that the police are at war with the government, and they are | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
going to do anything they can to discredit the Government. The police | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
would have every reason to be at war with the Government, because there | :34:52. | :35:00. | |
if there is a crisis of trust.. But it looks like they fitted up a | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
Cabinet minister. That remains to be seen, it is being investigated. We | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
know that those Birmingham officers, they totally misrepresented to, if | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
not lied outright, about what was said. Again, that is a | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
misrepresentation of what happened. If you actually go and look at what | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
is said, it is plain from the context, they were saying, he has | :35:25. | :35:31. | |
told us nothing new. But he had in the transcript, it said he hadn t. | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
He would not admit he had used the word pleb. He apologised profusely, | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
he said it would never happen again, he said many things that he had not | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
said before. I agree, which is presumably... Thereon many police | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
forces in this country, they have one of the toughest jobs in the | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
land, they end up getting involved in almost anything which happens in | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
society, and there are obviously a number of difficult examples, but | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
what is the evidence that it is out of hand, other than just several bad | :36:08. | :36:15. | |
apples? This bad apples argument, we have some amazing police people | :36:16. | :36:18. | |
thank God, but it is because of those that we have to root out the | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
bad ones, the ones that are possibly corrupt. From where most of us are | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
standing, the ones who are being accused of being corrupt, there does | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
not seem to be any process to deal with these people. The trouble with | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
a rotten apple is that it spreads. It is not fair on the good cops to | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
be tainted by this, and I think the police force, as an institution .. | :36:40. | :36:42. | |
For all of us, we have to respect the police. There is a problem, is | :36:43. | :36:50. | |
there not? People do worry that if you can fit up a Cabinet minister, | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
you can fit up anybody... . I would disagree that anybody has proved | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
that anybody has been fitted up We are yet to hear what happened at the | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
gates of Downing Street. But what we do know about the gates of Downing | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
Street is that we were told by the police officers that passers-by had | :37:10. | :37:16. | |
heard this incredible row, where Mitchell's file went was bullied. | :37:17. | :37:25. | |
That is not true... . They did not use those words, actually. All | :37:26. | :37:32. | |
right, but it is clear that the Police Federation jumped on this as | :37:33. | :37:43. | |
a politically motivated campaign... I have always said that politics | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
should be kept out of policing. The federation, they cannot go on | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
strike, but this was to covertly political, so I criticise them for | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
that. Do we need a better way of monitoring the police? We need a | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
more competent and properly resourced Independent police | :38:02. | :38:07. | |
commission. But if you look at those Bravery Awards, every police | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
officer, every year, who acts with bravery... That is the police force | :38:12. | :38:18. | |
we want to believe in. That is the police force you have got. We will | :38:19. | :38:24. | |
leave it there. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be speaking | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
to former Lib Minister Jeremy Browne. And in The Week Ahead, | :38:28. | :38:37. | |
Hello and welcome to the part of the programme just for us here in the | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
east. I'm Etholle George. Today, we go where David Cameron | :38:43. | :38:45. | |
fears to tread ` the question which he was pleased not to have to answer | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
at Prime Minister's Questions. And food or fuel? The row over what | :38:49. | :39:02. | |
we're using our fields for. This is something that that is at the | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
cutting edge of diversity. I think it is a shame that we are now | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
getting disincentives to these organisations that are trying to do | :39:14. | :39:15. | |
something ethically sound. First let's meet our guests. David | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
Ruffley is Conservative MP for Bury St Edmunds and Andrew Boswell who is | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
a Green Party councillor both on Norwich City Council and on Norfolk | :39:23. | :39:24. | |
County Council. And let's start with the Prime | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
Minister, because this is what he was pleased to avoid at Prime | :39:28. | :39:35. | |
Minister's Questions this week. Thank you. I originally intended to | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
raise the issue of the road with my honourable friend. Can I thank her | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
for forsaking the issue of the eighth 14... Well he may not be keen | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
about questions about that road, but there have been a lot around. The | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
end of the public consultation on the toll road. MPs argued that their | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
constituents would be paying Cambridge's congestion charge. So, | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
this sounds like serious rift between Suffolk and Cambridge. | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
Suffolk was not properly consulted. It is also the case that the | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
ministers in the department weren't really aware until recently of the | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
concern in Suffolk, I have spoken to the Secretary of State for transport | :40:24. | :40:30. | |
and the Roads Minister. We will see them as stretch that Suffolk should | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
not be painful Cambridge's problem. It will not be the case that you can | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
use the existing A14 once the relief road is built. Heavy goods vehicles | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
will not be able to travel freely and even saloon cars will | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
effectively be on a second`class road, it is not acceptable. It will | :40:51. | :40:57. | |
make Suffolk the odd county out and add it will be a road apartheid. I | :40:58. | :41:07. | |
am very concerned that we are going to be spending ?1.5 billion just to | :41:08. | :41:15. | |
create more congestion. We also will create an air quality problem and in | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
fact the road proposals as they stand may well breach the air | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
quality standards and we are beginning to see issues like the | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
World Health Organisation says that sort of air pollution is responsible | :41:31. | :41:37. | |
for lung cancer and is a factor. There are serious issues. They | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
could, if your Government cannot afford to pay for it, it is not | :41:43. | :41:45. | |
unreasonable to expect people who are using the Road to do that? | :41:46. | :41:52. | |
Exactly. There is an idea kicking around that Cambridge city should | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
introduce a congestion charge so those around it should and in it | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
should pay the kind of charge you find in London, for instance, which | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
was introduced by Ken Livingstone and kept by Boris Johnson. It should | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
not be the case that Suffolk is essentially being poll tax. Giving | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
you cannot stop the road, do you accept that a toll is a good idea? I | :42:17. | :42:24. | |
don't think having an apartheid in the road system is good. I would | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
support the congestion charge in a city like Cambridge where there is a | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
lot of congestion. I think there are alternatives though. For example, | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
the residents of Brampton are already surrounded me the A14 | :42:40. | :42:47. | |
junction with four I `` lanes either side. They are very worried about | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
the air quality. Well the European Parliament is | :42:53. | :42:55. | |
generally held to be a slightly more civilised affair than the | :42:56. | :42:58. | |
Westminster bear pit, but not apparently this week. And the | :42:59. | :43:00. | |
subject raising hackles? Biofuel. That's crops being grown to fuel | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
vehicles. You may be surprised to learn how big a business it is here | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
in the east. At the Wissington sugar beet factory near Kings Lynn, for | :43:10. | :43:12. | |
example, they produce 77 million litres of bioethanol a year, one | :43:13. | :43:15. | |
tenth of all the green petrol used in the UK. Which is why there's real | :43:16. | :43:23. | |
concern over EU plans to cut the amount of agricultural land allowed | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
for the use of growing crops for biofuel from 10% to 6% All day | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
lorries pour into British Sugar's Wissington factory on the edge of | :43:30. | :43:31. | |
the Fens. But nearly a quarter of the beet | :43:32. | :43:58. | |
arriving here won't end up as sugar. Instead it's turned into bioethanol | :43:59. | :44:09. | |
for road fuel. In 2007, British Sugar opened its plant at it wishing | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
to and works. It held the company used up sugar beet production. Just | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
six years on, the European Union seems the beginning to get cold feet | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
about producing biofuels from productive farmland. Why? Well, | :44:24. | :44:26. | |
picture a swathe of farmland nearly eight miles long by five miles wide. | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
That's what it takes to feed Wissington's bioethanol plant. The | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
European Parliament fears the current target for 10% of road fuel | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
to be sourced from food crops is displacing food production, pushing | :44:40. | :44:46. | |
up food prices. So it's voted to cut the figure to 6% to the dismay of | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
some working in the East Anglia's energy sector. These were really | :44:51. | :44:59. | |
quite innovative ways in which excess produce to produce biofuels | :45:00. | :45:06. | |
to assist us in cutting our nations. That was the interesting | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
and novel thing we are doing and it was at the cutting edge of diversity | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
in terms of biofuels. I think it is a shame that we are getting | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
disincentives now. At Lotus' headquarters in Norfolk they have | :45:21. | :45:23. | |
little doubt biofuels are the future. For five years, Lotus has | :45:24. | :45:36. | |
been experimenting with biofuels. This runs on a mix of bio ethanol. | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
The company is passionate that they should be sourced in a way that does | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
not sacrifice valuable agricultural land. In a building over their is | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
something much more interesting. `` over there. This is an advanced | :45:51. | :46:01. | |
cell. This is our omnivore engine, it is designed to run on a variety | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
of fuels. If we look at other countries, they already run fuels | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
with high ethanol content and what we have. Alcohol is used as a ratio | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
in the States, as well. The technology is there. I would say it | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
is not the technology that is holding things back, it is one of | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
the social implications, political implications, of moving the | :46:27. | :46:29. | |
technology on. The EU wants to encourage greater use of alternative | :46:30. | :46:32. | |
sources of biofuels. This new gas refuelling station for lorries in | :46:33. | :46:35. | |
Daventry uses biomethane, sourced from rotting rubbish at a landfill | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
site. At the Institute of Food Research in Norwich, they're | :46:40. | :46:41. | |
investigating how heat and pressure can be used to turn anything from | :46:42. | :46:49. | |
wood shavings to straw into biofuel. The potential for making bio ethanol | :46:50. | :46:58. | |
from food waste and things like that is getting close to commercial | :46:59. | :47:04. | |
viability. There has been a lot of research into it over the last ten | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
or 15 years and the process itself are becoming understood. It cost ?20 | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
million to build British Sugar's bioethanol plant at Wissington. If | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
the targets for biofuels from food crops are cut future investment | :47:17. | :47:24. | |
could be put at risk. How damaging do you think this proposal is for | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
the East of England? It's not good news for feature investment, that is | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
for sure. That concerns me. In terms of the technology there, people's | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
desire to invest in technology going forward will be limited as a result | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
of this. I think it is always dangerous if you do not know what | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
the next policy decision will be from Europe that may patterns alter | :47:47. | :47:49. | |
of investment. Well concern is so great over the | :47:50. | :47:52. | |
viability of the biofuels industry that it's been the subject of a | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
furious debate in Europe this week. And the row between two competing | :47:57. | :47:59. | |
committees has now stalled the plan for cuts. Conservative MEP Vicky | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
Ford wants to protect investment in the industry and slow down any | :48:04. | :48:11. | |
reductions. You cannot change the rules for investors overnight when | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
you only made them two years ago, these things need to be looked at in | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
a big picture. We are at a stand off between the industry committee | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
saying let's take more time and the environment committee who are | :48:26. | :48:28. | |
rushing headlong into a new set of rules. | :48:29. | :48:30. | |
But the Greens and the Liberals and Democrats in Europe are backing the | :48:31. | :48:33. | |
move. Andrew Sinclair spoke to Andrew Duff about why he supported | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
the change. He asked him whether supporting reductions in biofuel | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
production was effectively a U`turn. No, it is not, it is not a whole | :48:43. | :48:50. | |
U`turn. We are staying, please develop the industry, but strike a | :48:51. | :49:03. | |
balance between food security and the production of power. The price | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
of both of those things, as we all know, is going up and there is a | :49:09. | :49:19. | |
connection between taking crops out of food and giving them to be in `` | :49:20. | :49:27. | |
energy industry. This has potential to be quite a big damage in the | :49:28. | :49:36. | |
biofuel industry in the East? Many litres are created. There is a ?20 | :49:37. | :49:39. | |
million plant, litres are created. There is a ?20 | :49:40. | :49:46. | |
there, I have seen, I have spoken to them a lot and they are keen to see | :49:47. | :49:57. | |
a coherent regulation and I think that is the thing that we finally | :49:58. | :50:04. | |
have provided them with. If you are telling them to produce less, surely | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
that will have an impact on the business. We're not telling anyone | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
to do anything, we are requiring them to find a market by `` market | :50:14. | :50:21. | |
price that people can afford. The bio ethanol, the fact that they can | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
grow to 7.5%, which is more than they are doing at the moment, is a | :50:27. | :50:34. | |
clear encouragement for East Anglian industry which in this respect is | :50:35. | :50:44. | |
extremely efficient and modern. So you say that the biofuel industry in | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
our region will continue to thrive if this cap goes ahead. You will | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
still push for a cap? Yes. The clearest judgement I could reach is | :50:56. | :51:03. | |
that cats are needed `` the needed and I will stand on that record in | :51:04. | :51:10. | |
the election next year. What about these manufacturers Western Mark | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
here in the east, the investing heavily. This will impact it, | :51:17. | :51:26. | |
wouldn't it? I don't think it will specifically. The debate was about | :51:27. | :51:32. | |
taking the target from 5%, which it currently is, to 10% or 6%. There is | :51:33. | :51:40. | |
headroom in the target and Andrew Duff was talking about 7.5% in some | :51:41. | :51:47. | |
way. We have to be clear about this policy, it is very damaging to the | :51:48. | :52:00. | |
developing world. There is a massive amount of food insecurity caused by | :52:01. | :52:07. | |
this developing because taking agricultural crops out of the food | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
chain and into fuel has actually increased the price of commodities | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
and food prices. We need to have enough food as well | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
as enough fuel, don't we? Shouldn't land be for food? Ya like it is a | :52:19. | :52:24. | |
serious point and in the developing world, the problems are there to | :52:25. | :52:31. | |
see. But let's look at the region. First, all agricultural producers | :52:32. | :52:38. | |
should have the freedom to use the precious resorts which is the land | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
in East Anglia, whether it is rape seed and beat or food. I cannot get | :52:43. | :52:52. | |
too excited about the five or six or seven and a half target. The second | :52:53. | :52:58. | |
important thing is... The British Sugar plant, I know how important as | :52:59. | :53:06. | |
a source of jobs British Sugar is. And the local plant is important and | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
I think we should defend his industries. | :53:12. | :53:13. | |
Won't the uncertainty scare off any potential investors in new | :53:14. | :53:16. | |
technology, which as we saw in the film, we have in this region? It may | :53:17. | :53:28. | |
do. I personally don't think that biofuels... They link in the way | :53:29. | :53:36. | |
people travel to entirely to the internal combustion engine, we need | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
to be link from that. We need to get away from fossil fees. Most of the | :53:41. | :53:47. | |
biofuels go in at about 5%. So we are still talking about 95% fossil | :53:48. | :53:53. | |
fuels being used in a vehicle. That is seriously damaging to the | :53:54. | :53:56. | |
environment. We need to be thinking much more about electric vehicles | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
and how we reduce carbon in the energy sector to generate clean | :54:02. | :54:07. | |
electricity. Briefly, your party pledged to be the greenest garden `` | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
Government ever. But it seems UK then when it affects industry. By | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
2020, we all agree that 50% of energy should be generated by | :54:18. | :54:24. | |
renewables. We should be supporting it locally. I think biofuels is a | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
part of that. It is jobs for East Anglian, that is what I am worried | :54:30. | :54:37. | |
about. Well the only rail franchise in | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
public ownership is the East Coast mainline which runs from Kings Cross | :54:42. | :54:44. | |
in London through Stevenage and Peterborough to the north. It's just | :54:45. | :54:47. | |
handed the treasury more than ?200 million pounds. This week, the Green | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
Party has been lobbying to keep the franchise public with a 23,000 | :54:52. | :54:53. | |
strong petition. They were at Peterborough station talking to | :54:54. | :54:56. | |
travellers. But they don't want to just stop at the East Coast: they're | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
campaigning to bring the entire railway system back into Government | :55:01. | :55:08. | |
hands as franchises run out. The Green Party is behind a nationalised | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
public transport system and a system which works in an integrated fashion | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
and a system which is fair. We don't actually think that people should be | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
paying hidden taxes when they travel, because that falls on fairly | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
on people with small incomes. Attack it sounds like you are harking back | :55:26. | :55:31. | |
to the days of British rail. In Iraq I think a lot of people would want | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
it back. It's not been a great advert for | :55:36. | :55:38. | |
privatisation, the east coast mainline running so much better | :55:39. | :55:41. | |
since it was taken back into Government hands? I think there is a | :55:42. | :55:51. | |
case of selective amnesia here. I don't think turning the clock back | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
is the solution. Do I defend every single privatised line, they could | :55:56. | :56:01. | |
do better. It depends on the operator. I do not think that we | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
should renationalise. It is going back to an age that never existed. | :56:06. | :56:11. | |
We are talking about going forward to a 21st`century different way of | :56:12. | :56:17. | |
doing nationalisation. If you look at the experience of privatisation, | :56:18. | :56:20. | |
we have seen real prices go up for the average person by 23% under | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
privatisation. We have seen all the problems were you have a fragmented | :56:26. | :56:32. | |
system, maintenance separated from the companies and so on. What we are | :56:33. | :56:40. | |
talking about and Caroline Lucas's private members bill which has been | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
taken for a second reading in Parliament is that it is | :56:45. | :56:47. | |
incrementally moved back to a nationalised system. Every time one | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
of these franchises comes back, it can be brought back into... Think of | :56:52. | :56:56. | |
what you could do. If this has proved so successful, ?200 million, | :56:57. | :57:03. | |
why privatise again? This idea of keeping it in public ownership, they | :57:04. | :57:10. | |
enter `` the idea that investment will be paid for by the tax by his | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
ridiculous. Prices will have to be set to make sure that investment is | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
put back into the industry. I think that the idea that if it is not | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
privatised then the tax burden will be coughing up because the | :57:27. | :57:29. | |
maintenance and upkeep has to be paid for and I don't think the | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
experiment or the history of public ownership is significantly better | :57:34. | :57:40. | |
than the privatised alternative. Is it a minute ago that you won't be | :57:41. | :57:43. | |
ideological. That sounded ideological. It is making a | :57:44. | :57:50. | |
profit... do you think British rail was perfect? It was significantly | :57:51. | :57:55. | |
better... We're not talking about going back to British rail. But a | :57:56. | :58:02. | |
different model. Andrew Boswell, would you read nationalised anything | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
else? I would certainly be in favour of nationalising some other | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
industries, as well. I think we lose a lot with the privatisation model. | :58:14. | :58:19. | |
We have to leave it there. They're not doing everything wrong. I need | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
to keep the programme on track. Now, from the state of our army to | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
the safety of our seas, it's all in our 60 second round up with Deborah | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
McGurran. Former Fusilier, John Baron, leading | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
the campaign this week to save second Battalion, the Royal Regiment | :58:37. | :58:44. | |
of Fusiliers. It makes no sense whatsoever, scrapping battalions | :58:45. | :58:50. | |
while probably recruited ones are being saved. | :58:51. | :58:52. | |
And Julian Huppert wants to save sixth form colleges some money. He's | :58:53. | :58:55. | |
written to Michael Gove saying it's unfair that schools are exempt from | :58:56. | :58:58. | |
VAT, but sixth form colleges are not. There is a cross`party group of | :58:59. | :59:05. | |
us trying to really push that, to give the money back to the sixth | :59:06. | :59:08. | |
form colleges so it can be used more usefully. | :59:09. | :59:09. | |
There's growing speculation that money from China could pave the way | :59:10. | :59:13. | |
for a new nuclear power station in Suffolk. | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
And support grew for Alistair Burt MP at PMQs after he lost his foreign | :59:18. | :59:23. | |
affairs job in the reshuffle. But bad news for the Coastguard | :59:24. | :59:26. | |
centre at Walton`on`the`Naze which will close in June 2015, the | :59:27. | :59:28. | |
Government has confirmed. Andrew Boswell, what about a Chinese | :59:29. | :59:46. | |
backed Sizewell? Nuclear energy is not necessarily carbon free, but I | :59:47. | :59:53. | |
am concerned to see the Government going down the nuclear route. We | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
don't know how to solve the waste problem, there is still waste from | :59:58. | :00:02. | |
1957 that has not been cleared up. We have seen things that happened at | :00:03. | :00:09. | |
Fukushima, and there is a huge amount we can do with renewable | :00:10. | :00:14. | |
energy. Actually, George Osborne made a big mistake in terms of | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
putting off investors in his speech to the Conservative Party prop `` | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
party conference when he made the comment about not being... That put | :00:23. | :00:30. | |
off investors. They comment on that. George Osborne talking about the | :00:31. | :00:37. | |
links with China, what about these links with Chinese industry? I am | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
quite relaxed. There are security issues, but we have foreign | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
ownership... Why are their security issues? They are a superpower. There | :00:49. | :01:02. | |
are security issues, nuclear is something strategically very | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
important. We have to be a bit careful, but we have East Anglia | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
docks which are owned by far Eastern companies, I cannot get excited | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
about foreign ownership. Do we need nuclear? Of course we do. Thank you | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
both very much for joining us today. That is all for now. As always, you | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
can keep in touch via our website when you will also find links to our | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
blocks for all the latest. We will when you will also find links to our | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
down immigration, but not in any way which links in with this. Thank you | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
to both of you for being my guests today. | :01:35. | :01:43. | |
Are the Lib Dems like a wonky shopping trolley? Why is Nick Clegg | :01:44. | :01:51. | |
kicking off over free schools? And what about Boris and George's love | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
bombing of China? All questions for The Week Ahead. We are joined now by | :01:58. | :02:04. | |
the former Home Office minister and Liberal Democrat MP Jeremy Browne. | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
Jeremy Browne, let me ask you this key question - ??GAPNEXT who is in | :02:09. | :02:15. | |
the ascendancy in your party, those who would fear to the left, or those | :02:16. | :02:22. | |
who would fear to the centre? The point I was making in the interview | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
that I gave to the times was that I want us to be unambiguously and on | :02:27. | :02:37. | |
up genetically -- and unapologetically a Liberal party. I | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
do not want us to be craving the approval of columnists like Polly | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
Toynbee. I do not want us to be a pale imitation of the Labour Party. | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
I think we should be proud and unambiguously a authentic Liberal | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
party. That is my ambition for the party. If it is, as you put it, | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
fearing to the left, then I think that is a mistake, I think we should | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
be on the liberal centre ground But is it actually veering to the left, | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
your party? I think there is a danger when a party, or any | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
organisation, feels that it is in a difficult position, to look | :03:15. | :03:22. | |
inwards, to look for reassuring familiar policy positions. I do not | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
want us to be the party which looks inwards and speaks to the 9% of | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
people who are minded to support us already. I want us to look outwards | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
and speak to the 91% of the population, for whom I think we have | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
got a good story to tell about the contribution we have made to getting | :03:41. | :03:42. | |
the deficit down, cutting crime keeping interest rates low, and | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
also, distinctive Liberal Democrat policies for example on income tax | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
and pupil premiums. If we look like we are a party which is uneasy and | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
ambivalent about our role in government, people will not give us | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
credit for the successes of the government, and we will not be able | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
to claim the authorship which we should be able to claim for our | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
policies excesses in government I want us to be confident, outward | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
looking, and authentically liberal. If we are that, people real sense | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
that and they will respond positively. Does that not therefore | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
make it rather strange that Nick Craig should choose to distance | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
himself from the coalition's schools policy? Well, I support free | :04:27. | :04:34. | |
schools, I think they are a liberal policy. Education is a fascinating | :04:35. | :04:43. | |
area, so let's explore it a bit We have had two very significant and | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
troubling reports in the last fortnight, one from Alan Milburn, | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
saying that social mobility has stalled in this country, in other | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
words, what your parents do is a reliable guide to how you will get | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
on in life and the other saying that Britain lags behind our | :04:59. | :05:00. | |
competitors, the other industrialised countries, in terms | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
of the educational attainment of 15-year-olds. Both of those are | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
worrying. We have a scandalous situation in this country where two | :05:11. | :05:12. | |
thirds of children from disadvantaged backgrounds are | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
failing to get five Grade A to Grade C. Some get none at all. If we were | :05:19. | :05:26. | |
the world leaders in education, we could have an interesting | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
conversation about how we are able to maintain that position, but we | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
are not. Whether there are good things one less good things which | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
have happened in our schools over the last 30-40 years, we really need | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
to raise our game and stop letting young people down who need a good | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
quality education in order to realise their full potential in | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
life. It sounds like you do not share Mr Clegg's designations? I | :05:48. | :05:54. | |
think there are two big dangers for us as a party. I do not think we | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
should be instinctively statist and I do not think either we should be | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
instinctively in favour of the status quo. I want us to have a | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
restless, radical, energetic, liberal reforming instinct, which is | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
about putting more power and responsible at the end opportunity | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
in the hands of individual people. As I say, we look at the education | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
system, of course there are good teachers and good outcomes in some | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
schools and for some pupils, overall, our performance in this | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
country is not good enough, so the status quo has not been a successful | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
stop I am interested in how we can innovate. -- has not been a success. | :06:34. | :06:47. | |
Are the Tories wooing you? Well I do not know if that is the right | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
word, I have been reported, and I have set myself, that the | :06:52. | :06:59. | |
Conservatives have, if you like made some advances or generous | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
suggestions to me, but I am a liberal, and I am a Liberal | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
Democrat. I have been a member of the Lib Dems since the party was | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
founded, I joined when I was 18 years old. I have campaigned | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
tirelessly for the Liberal Democrats for my entire adult life, so I am | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
not about to go and join another political party. I would turn this | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
on its head, let me put it like this, I think there are quite a few | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
liberals in the other political parties, people like Alan Milburn, | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
who wrote a report on social mobility, people like Nick Bowles in | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
the Conservative Party. Our ambition, as Liberal Democrats, | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
should be to attract liberals from other political parties, and no | :07:41. | :07:50. | |
political party, to the Lib Dems. Just briefly, have you suggested | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
that the Tories do not run a candidate against you in the next | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
election? I have not suggested anything of the sort. The | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
Conservatives have to make their own decisions about which candidates | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
they select, and I will take on whoever is select it from each of | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
the political parties. Thank you for joining us. There is a danger not | :08:13. | :08:25. | |
from Jeremy Browne, but from Mr Clegg, in that, having been part of | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
a coalition which has gone through an enormous squeeze in living | :08:32. | :08:33. | |
standards for three years, it did not look like both was coming, it | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
was being regarded overall as a failure, but now, it may be turning | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
the corner, so why would you then start to disassociate yourself from | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
the coalition's policies? Yes, the danger for Nick Clegg is that he | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
makes the Liberal Democrats looked like visitors in a guesthouse, a | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
guesthouse which is owned by the Conservatives. As you say, they were | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
there for the three difficult years, and just at the moment when the | :09:02. | :09:03. | |
economy seems to be coming right, and we are getting some nice growth, | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
they seek to distance themselves. It is interesting that Jeremy Browne | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
came out with the outrageously disloyal statement that he supported | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
free schools statement. That is a disloyal Liberal Democrat view, but | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
on Thursday, of course, the Liberal Democrat party was in favour of free | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
schools, because in that statement about the Al-Madinah school, David | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
Laws made a passionate defence about what Nick Clegg is now criticising, | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
which is having on qualified teachers. If things are now coming | :09:33. | :09:41. | |
right, the big risk for the Liberal Democrats always was that they would | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
not get the credit anyway. Well if they diss associate themselves like | :09:47. | :09:48. | |
this, they definitely will not get the credit. It depends which voters | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
their opinion poll ratings are dire, he spoke about 9%, and sometimes it | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
is less than that. So, where are they going to get those voters | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
from? They have not got those anti-Iraq war voters. Is it not | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
Mission impossible, getting Labour voters test surely the left of the | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
Lib Dem vote is peeling off towards labour, not away from Labour? I | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
wonder to what extent, and this might be speculation, this might be | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
organised and arranged, that Cameron and Clegg both understand that they | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
have groups of voters that they need to get, so they need to send | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
messages out to different groups, it looks like a bit of a setup to me. | :10:35. | :10:43. | |
Boris in China, along with boy George - let's have a look... Who, | :10:44. | :10:52. | |
according to JK Rowling, was Harry Potter's first girlfriend? That s | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
right, and she is Chinese overseas student, is that not right at | :10:59. | :11:05. | |
Hogwarts? Actually, we are not sure it is right, she is actually from | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
Scotland. It is not only London which has a diverse society. Putting | :11:10. | :11:16. | |
that to one side, we are inviting the Chinese into finance our power | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
stations, to run big banks in the cities, we are giving out more visas | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
to them, are we right to embrace the Dragon? What worries me about the | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
power stations then, it is 30% of investment, and it reminds me a lot | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
of PFI, the idea that you do not want a huge investment on your | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
balance sheet, but if somebody bails out halfway through, we cannot stop | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
with a half finished power station. It is EDF, the French company, which | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
will actually build it, and we will be guaranteeing the debt for them. | :11:49. | :11:55. | |
It is extraordinary that there has been so little adverse comment after | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
George Osborne and Boris's trip to China, and is it now really the UK | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
Government policy, to sell Britain to the Chinese? There was a debate | :12:05. | :12:13. | |
in government about this, as they were getting ready for the trip and | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
there will be at some point in the next six months be a David Cameron | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
trip to China. He has had to wait three years because they were | :12:23. | :12:24. | |
annoyed about him meeting the Dalai llama. There were some people in the | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
Foreign Office who were saying, fine, but tread carefully. George | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
Osborne's view is absolutely not, get in there, I do not care about | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
any of these problems, get stuck in. I think he is storing up five | :12:41. | :12:47. | |
years since the financial crisis, Chinese banks are being given a | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
special, light touch regulatory regime. What could possibly go | :12:51. | :13:01. | |
wrong?! There is lots to see. Energy prices have continued to dominate | :13:02. | :13:08. | |
this week. We have got the EDF deal, whereby we are going to be giving | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
them twice the market rate for their energy. But for the coalition, all | :13:12. | :13:19. | |
eyes are on the GDP figures. The expectation and hope is that the | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
recovery will be stronger than the figures have suggested so far, on | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
which basis it can influence the result of the next general | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
election. The chief economist at the Bank of England was saying on | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
Twitter last week that the Bank of England may now bring forward the | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
assessment when it says, maybe we are going to have to change monetary | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
policy, if unemployment goes below 7%. And we know what that means | :13:46. | :13:54. | |
interest rates. The Bank of England on Twitter! That is it for today. | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two. I will be back with | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
prime Minster 's questions on Wednesday, and of course, we will be | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
back at 11 o'clock on BBC One next Sunday. | :14:07. | :14:13. |