Browse content similar to 12/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
David Davis tells MPs to leave the Brexit bill untouched, | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
ahead of a week which could see Britain begin the process | :00:44. | :00:45. | |
We'll talk to a Tory rebel and Ukip's Nigel Farage. | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
Phillip Hammond's first budget hit the rocks thanks to a tax rise | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
But how should we tax those who work for themselves? | :00:54. | :01:01. | |
And remember Donald Trump's claim that Barack Obama had ordered | :01:02. | :01:03. | |
We'll talk to the former Tory MP who set the whole story rolling. | :01:04. | :01:11. | |
How will the first elected mayor for Cambridgeshire shape up | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
against the powers of this mayor in Germany? | :01:16. | :01:17. | |
And the row over the betrayal of white van man. | :01:18. | :01:29. | |
And joining me for all of that, three self-employed journalists | :01:30. | :01:31. | |
who definitely don't deserve a tax break. | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
It's Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer | :01:36. | :01:36. | |
They'll be tweeting throughout the programme with all the carefree | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
abandon of Katie Hopkins before a libel trial. | :01:42. | :01:48. | |
BBC lawyers have suddenly got nervous! | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
So first today, the government is gearing up to trigger Article 50, | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
perhaps in the next 48 hours, and start negotiating Britain's | :01:55. | :01:56. | |
Much has been written about the prospect of the Commons | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
getting a "meaningful vote" on the deal Britain negotiates. | :02:01. | :02:02. | |
Brexit Secretary David Davis was on the Andrew Marr programme | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
earlier this morning and he was asked what happens | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
Well, that is what is called the most favoured nation status deal | :02:08. | :02:17. | |
There we go out, as it were, on WTO rules. | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
That is why of course we do the contingency planning, to make | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
The British people decided on June the 23rd last year | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
My job, and the job of the government, is to make | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
the terms on which that happens as beneficial as possible. | :02:38. | :02:47. | |
There we have it, clearly, either Parliament votes for the deal when | :02:48. | :02:55. | |
it is done or it out on World Trade Organisation rules. That's what the | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
government means by a meaningful vote. | :02:59. | :03:00. | |
I think we get over obsessed about whether there will be a legal right | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
for Parliament to have a vote. If there is no deal or a bad deal, I | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
think it would be politically impossible for the government to | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
reject Parliament's desire for a vote because the atmosphere of | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
politics will be completely different by then. I take David | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
Davies seriously. Within Whitehall he has acquired a reputation as | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
being the most conscientious and details sadly... And well briefed. | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
Absolutely and well travelled in terms of European capitals of the | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
three Brexit ministers. It is quite telling he said what he did and it | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
is quite telling that within cabinet, two weeks ago he was | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
floating the idea of no deal at all. Being if not the central estimate | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
than a completely plausible eventuality. It is interesting. I | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
would suggest the prospect of no deal is moving up the agenda. It is | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
still less likely than more likely to happen. But it's no longer a kind | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
of long tail way out there in the distance. Planning for no deal is | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
the same as having contents insurance or travel insurance, plan | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
for the worse case scenarios are prepared it happens. Even the worst | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
case scenario, it's not that bad. Think of the Jeep 20, apart from the | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
EU, four members of the G20 economies are successful members of | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
the EU. The rest aren't and don't have trade deals but somehow these | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
countries are prospering. They are growing at a higher rate. You are | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
not frightened? Not remotely. We are obsessed with what we get from the | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
EU and the key thing we get from leaving the EU is not the deal but | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
the other deals we can finally make with other trading partners. They | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
have higher growth than virtually every other EU country apart from | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
Germany. It is sensible as a negotiating position for the | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
government to say if there is no deal, we will accept there is no | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
deal. We're not frightened of no deal. It was clear from what David | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
Davies was saying that there will be a vote in parliament at the end of | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
the process but there won't be a third option to send the government | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
back to try to get a better deal. It is either the deal or we leave | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
without a deal. In reality, that third option will be there. We don't | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
know yet whether there will be a majority for the deal if they get | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
one. What we do know now is that there isn't a majority in the | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
Commons for no deal. Labour MPs are absolutely clear that no deal is | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
worth then a bad deal. I've heard enough Tory MPs say the same thing. | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
But they wouldn't get no deal through. When it comes to this vote, | :05:29. | :05:37. | |
if whatever deal is rejected, there will then be, one way or another, | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
the third option raised of go back again. But who gets to decide what | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
is a bad deal? The British people will have a different idea than the | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
two thirds of the Remain supporting MPs in the Commons. In terms of the | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
vote, the Commons. Surely, if the Commons, which is what matters here, | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
if the Commons were to vote against the deal as negotiated by the | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
government, surely that would trigger a general election? If the | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
government had recommended the deal, surely the government would then, if | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
it still felt strongly about the deal, if the other 27 had said, | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
we're not negotiating, extending it, it would in effect become a second | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
referendum on the deal. In effect it would be a no-confidence vote in the | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
government. You've got to assume that unless something massively | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
changes in the opposition before then, the government would feel | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
fairly confident about a general election on those terms. Unless the | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
deal is hideously bad and obviously basso every vote in the country... | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
The prior minister said if it is that bad she would have rather no | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
deal. So that eventuality arrives. -- the Prime Minister has said. Not | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
a second referendum general election in two years' time. Don't put any | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
holidays for! LAUGHTER -- don't look any. | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
So the Brexit bill looks likely to clear Parliament this week. | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
That depends on the number of Conservative MPs who are prepared | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
to vote against their government on two key issues. | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
Theresa May could be in negotiations with our European | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
partners within days, but there may be some | :07:11. | :07:12. | |
wheeler-dealings she has to do with her own MPs, too. | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
Cast your mind back to the beginning of month. | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
The bill to trigger Article 50 passed comfortably | :07:20. | :07:21. | |
But three Conservatives voted for Labour's amendments to ensure | :07:22. | :07:29. | |
the rights of EU citizens already in the UK. | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
Seven Tory MPs voted to force the government to give Parliament | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
a say on the deal struck with the EU before it's finalised. | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
But remember those numbers, they're important. | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
On the issue of a meaningful vote on a deal, I'm told there might have | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
been more rebels had it not been for this assurance from | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
I can confirm that the government will bring forward a motion | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
on the final agreement to be approved by both Houses | :07:58. | :07:59. | |
And we expect, and intend, that this will happen before | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
the European Parliament debates and votes on the final agreement. | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
When the government was criticised for reeling back | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
from when and what it would offer a vote on. | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
The bill then moved into the Lords, where peers passed it | :08:21. | :08:22. | |
And the second, that Parliament be given a meaningful vote on the terms | :08:23. | :08:30. | |
of the deal or indeed a vote in the event of there | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
The so-called Brexit bill will return to Commons | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
Ministers insist that both amendments would weaken | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
the government's negotiating hand and are seeking to overturn them. | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
But, as ever, politics is a numbers game. | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
Theresa May has a working majority of 17. | :08:51. | :08:52. | |
On Brexit, though, it's probably higher. | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
At least six Labour MPs generally vote with | :08:57. | :08:58. | |
Plus, eight DUP MPs, two from the Ulster Unionist party | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
If all Conservatives vote with the government as well, | :09:03. | :09:09. | |
Therefore, 26 Conservative rebels are needed for the government to be | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
So, are there rough waters ahead for Theresa May? | :09:15. | :09:21. | |
What numbers are we looking at, in terms of a potential rebellion? | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
I think we're looking at a large number of people who are interested | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
This building is a really important building. | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
It's symbolic of a huge amount of history. | :09:31. | :09:31. | |
And for it not to be involved in this momentous time would, | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
But he says a clear verbal statement from the government on a meaningful | :09:36. | :09:42. | |
vote on any deal would be enough to get most Tory MPs onside. | :09:43. | :09:49. | |
It was already said about David Jones. | :09:50. | :09:50. | |
It's slightly unravelled a little bit during | :09:51. | :09:52. | |
I think this is an opportunity to really get that clarity | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
through so that we can all vote for Article 50 and get | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
We've have spoken to several Tory MPs who say they are minded to vote | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
One said the situation was sad and depressing. | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
The other said that the whips must be worried because they don't | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
A minister told me Downing Street was looking again at the possibility | :10:12. | :10:18. | |
of offering a vote in the event of no deal being reached. | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
But that its position was unlikely to change. | :10:23. | :10:24. | |
And, anyway, government sources have told the Sunday Politics they're not | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
That those Tory MPs who didn't back either amendment the first time | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
round would look silly if they did, this time. | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
It would have to be a pretty hefty lot of people changing their minds | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
about things that have already been discussed in quite a lot of detail, | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
last time it was in the Commons, for things to be reversed this time. | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
There's no doubt that a number of Tory MPs are very concerned. | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
Labour are pessimistic about the chances of enough Tory | :10:52. | :10:53. | |
rebels backing either of the amendments in the Commons. | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
The important thing, I think, is to focus on the fact | :10:58. | :10:59. | |
that this is the last chance to have a say on this. | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
If they're going to vote with us, Monday is the time to do it. | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
Assuming the bill does pass the Commons unamended, | :11:07. | :11:08. | |
it will go back to the Lord's on Monday night where Labour peers | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
have already indicated they won't block it again. | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
It means that the Brexit bill would become law and Theresa May | :11:16. | :11:18. | |
would be free to trigger Article 50 within days. | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
Her own deadline was the end of this month. | :11:23. | :11:24. | |
But one minister told me there were advantages to doing it early. | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
We're joined now from Nottingham by the Conservative MP Anna Soubry. | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
She's previously voted against the government on the question | :11:34. | :11:36. | |
of whether Parliament should have a final say over the EU deal. | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
Anna Soubry, I think it was clear this morning from David Davies that | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
what he means by meaningful vote is not what you mean by a meaningful | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
vote. He thinks the choice for Parliament would be to either vote | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
for the deal and if Parliament doesn't, we leave on World Trade | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
Organisation rules, on a bare-bones structure. In the end, will he | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
accept that in the Commons tomorrow? No, because my problem and I don't | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
think it is a problem, but my problem, the government's problem is | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
that what I want is then to answer this question. What happens in the | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
event of their not being any deal? David Davies made it very clear that | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
in the event of there being no deal, Parliament would have no say. It | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
means through your elected representatives, the people of this | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
country would have no say on what happens if the government doesn't | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
get a deal. I think the request that Parliament should have a say on | :12:37. | :12:38. | |
Parliamentary sovereignty, is perfectly reasonable. That is what I | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
want David to say. If he says that, I won't be rebelling. If he does... | :12:44. | :12:50. | |
They have refused to say that. Sorry. If he continues to say what | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
he said the BBC this morning, which means that the vote will be either | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
to accept the as negotiated or to leave on WTO rules, will you rebel | :13:01. | :13:07. | |
on that question but no, no, sorry, if there's a deal, Parliament will | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
have a say. So that's fine. And we will see what the deal is and we | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
will look at the options two years down the road. When who knows | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
what'll happen in our economy and world economy. That is one matter | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
which I am content on. The Prime Minister, a woman of her word has | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
said that in the event of a deal, Parliament will vote on any deal. I | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
don't difficulty. To clarify, I will come onto that. These are important | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
matters. I want to clarify, not argue with you. You are content that | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
if there is a deal, we will come under no deal in a second, but if | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
there is a deal, you are content with the choice of being able to | :13:44. | :13:50. | |
vote for that deal or leaving on WTO terms? No, you're speculating as to | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
what might happen in two years' time. What the options might be. | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
Personally I find it inconceivable that the government will come back | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
with a rubbish deal. They will either come back with a good deal, | :14:03. | :14:05. | |
which I won't have a problem with or they will come back with no deal. To | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
speculate about coming back with a deal, there is a variety of options. | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
I understand that that is what the Lord amendments are about. They are | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
about a vote at the end of the process. Do forgive me, the Lords | :14:18. | :14:25. | |
amendment is not the same that I've voted for in Parliament. What we | :14:26. | :14:27. | |
call the Chris Leslie amendment, which was talking about whatever the | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
agreement is, whatever happens at the end of the negotiations, | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
Parliament will have a vote. Parliament will have a say. The | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
Lords amendment is a bit more technical. It is the principle of no | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
deal that is agitating us. Let's clarify on this. They are | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
complicated matters. What do you want the government to say? What do | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
you want David Davis to say tomorrow on what should the Parliamentary | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
process should be if there is no deal? Quite. I want a commitment | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
from him that in the event of no deal, it will come into Parliament | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
and Parliament will determine what happens next. It could be that in | :15:04. | :15:11. | |
the event of no deal, the best thing is for us to jump off the cliff into | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
WTO tariff is. I find it unlikely but that might be the reality. There | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
might be other alternatives. Most importantly, including saying to the | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
government, go back, carry on. The question that everybody has to ask | :15:23. | :15:24. | |
is, why won't the government give My fear is what this is about is | :15:25. | :15:35. | |
asked deliberately, not the Prime Minister, but others deliberately | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
ensuring we have no deal and no deal pretty soon and in that event, we | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
jumped off the cliff onto WTO tariffs and nobody in this country | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
and the people of this country do not have a say. My constituents did | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
not vote for hard Brexit. You do not want the government to | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
have the ability if there is no deal to automatically fall back on the | :16:01. | :16:07. | |
WTO rules? Quite. It is as simple as that. We are now speculating about | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
what will happen in two years. I want to find out what happens | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
tomorrow. What will you do if you don't get that assurance? I will | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
either abstain, or I will vote to keep this amendment within the Bill. | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
I will either vote against my government, which I do not do | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
likely, I have never voted against my government until the Chris Leslie | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
clause when the Bill was going through, or I will abstain, which | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
has pretty much the same effect because it comes into the Commons | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
with both amendments so you have positively to vote to take the map. | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
Can you give us an idea of how many like-minded conservative colleagues | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
there are. I genuinely do not know. You must talk to each other. I do | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
not talk to every member of my party. You know people who are | :17:00. | :17:07. | |
like-minded. I do. I am not doing numbers games. I know you want that | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
but I genuinely do not know the figure. I think this is an | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
uncomfortable truth. People have to understand what has happened in our | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
country, two particular newspapers, creating an atmosphere and setting | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
an agenda and I think many people are rather concerned, some | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
frightened, to put their head over the parapet. There are many millions | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
of people who feel totally excluded from this process. Many of them | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
voted to remain. And they have lost their voice. We have covered the | :17:41. | :17:43. | |
ground I wanted to. We're joined now by the Ukip MEP | :17:44. | :17:45. | |
and former leader Nigel Farage. Article 50 triggered, we are leaving | :17:46. | :17:57. | |
the EU, the single market and the customs union. What is left you to | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
complain about? All of that will happen and hopefully we will get the | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
triggered this week which is good news. What worries me a little I'm | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
not sure the government recognises how strong their handers. At the | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
summit in Brussels, the word in the corridors is that we are prepared to | :18:15. | :18:17. | |
give away fishing waters as a bargaining chip and the worry is | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
what deal we get. Are we leaving, yes I am pleased about that. You are | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
under relevant voice in the deal because the deal will be voted on in | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
Parliament and you have one MP. You are missing the point, the real vote | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
in parliament is not in London but Strasbourg. This is perhaps the | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
biggest obstacle the British Government faces. Not what happens | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
in the Commons that the end of the two years, the European Parliament | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
could veto the deal. What that means is people need to adopt a different | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
approach. We do not need to be lobbying in the corridors of | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
Brussels to get a good deal, we need is a country to be out there talking | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
to the German car workers and Belgian chocolate makers, putting as | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
much pressure as we can on politicians from across Europe to | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
come to a sensible arrangement. It is in their interests more than | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
ours. In what way is the vision of Brexit set out by David Davis any | :19:16. | :19:22. | |
different from your own? I am delighted there are people now | :19:23. | :19:25. | |
adopting the position I argued for many years. Good. But now... Like | :19:26. | :19:33. | |
Douglas Carswell, he said he found David Davis' performers this morning | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
reassuring. It is. And just as when Theresa May was Home Secretary every | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
performance she gave was hugely reassuring. She was seen to be a | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
heroine after her conference speeches and then did not deliver. I | :19:48. | :19:54. | |
am concerned that even before we start we are making concessions. You | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
described in the EU's divorce bill demands, 60 billion euros is floated | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
around. You said it is laughable and I understand that. Do you maintain | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
that we will not have to pay a penny to leave? It is nine months since we | :20:11. | :20:18. | |
voted exit and assuming the trigger of Article 50, we would have paid 30 | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
billion in since we had a vote. We are still members. But honestly, I | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
do not think there is an appetite for us to pay a massive divorce | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
Bill. There are assets also. Not a penny? There will be some ongoing | :20:34. | :20:40. | |
commitments, but the numbers talked about our 50, ?60 billion, they are | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
frankly laughable. I am trying to find out if you are prepared to | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
accept some kind of exit cost, it may be nowhere near 60 billion. We | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
have to do a net agreement, the government briefed about our share | :20:57. | :20:59. | |
of the European Union investment bank. Would you accept a | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
transitional arrangement, deal, five, ten billion, as part of the | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
divorce settlement? We are painted net ?30 million every single day at | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
the moment, ?10 billion plus every year. That is just our contribution. | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
We are going to make a massive saving on this. What do you make of | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
what Anna Soubry said, that if there is no deal, and it is being talked | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
about more. Maybe the government managing expectations. There is an | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
expectation we will have a deal, but if there is no deal, that the | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
government cannot just go to WTO rules, but it has to have a vote in | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
parliament? By the time we get to that there will be a general | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
election coming down the tracks and I suspect that if at the end of the | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
two-year process there is no deal and by the way, no deal is a lot | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
better for the nation than where we currently are, because we freed of | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
regulations and able to make our own deals in the world. I think what | :22:05. | :22:07. | |
would happen, and if Parliament said it did not back, at the end of the | :22:08. | :22:14. | |
negotiation a general election would happen quickly. According to reports | :22:15. | :22:21. | |
this morning, one of your most senior aides has passed a dossier to | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
police claiming Tories committed electoral fraud in Thanet South, the | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
seat contested in the election. What evidence to you have? I read that in | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
the newspapers as you have. I am not going to comment on it. Will you not | :22:37. | :22:39. | |
aware of the contents of the dossier? I am not aware of the | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
dossier. He was your election strategists. I am dubious as to | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
whether this dossier exists at all. Perhaps the newspapers have got this | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
wrong. Concerns about the downloading of data the took place | :22:59. | :23:05. | |
in that constituency, there are. Allegedly, he has refuted it, was it | :23:06. | :23:12. | |
done by your MP to give information to the Tories, do you have evidence | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
about? We have evidence Mr Carswell downloaded information, we have no | :23:18. | :23:24. | |
evidence what he did with it. It is not just your aide who has been | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
making allegations against the Conservatives in Thanet South and | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
other seats, if the evidence was to be substantial, and if it was to | :23:35. | :23:41. | |
result in another by-election being called an Thanet South had to be | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
fought again, would you be the Ukip candidate? I probably would. You | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
probably would? Yes. Just probably? Just probably. It would be your | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
eighth attempt. Winning seats in parliament under first past the post | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
is not the only way to change politics in Britain and I would like | :24:01. | :24:03. | |
to think I proved that. Let's go back to Anna Soubry. The implication | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
of what we were saying on the panel at the start of the show and what | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
Nigel Farage was saying there would be that if at the end of the process | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
whatever the vote, if the government were to lose it, it would provoke a | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
general election properly. I think that would be right. Let's get real. | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
The government is not going to come to Parliament with anything other | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
than something it believes is a good deal and if it rejected it, would be | :24:32. | :24:39. | |
unlikely, there would be a de facto vote of no confidence and it would | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
be within the fixed term Parliaments act and that be it. The problem is, | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
more likely, because of the story put up about the 50 billion, 60 | :24:49. | :24:54. | |
billion and you look at the way things are flagged up that both the | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
Prime Minister and Boris Johnson saying, we should be asking them for | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
money back, I think the big fear and the fear I have is we will be | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
crashing out in six months. You think we could leave as quickly as | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
six months. Explain that. I think they will stoke up the demand from | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
the EU for 50, 60 billion back and my real concern is that within six | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
months, where we're not making much progress, maybe nine months, and | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
people are getting increasingly fed up with the EU because they are told | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
it wants unreasonable demands, and then the crash. I think what is | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
happening is the government is putting in place scaffolding at the | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
bottom of the cliff to break our fall when we come to fall off that | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
cliff and I think many in government are preparing not for a two-year | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
process, but six, to nine months, off the cliff, out we go. That is my | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
fear. That is interesting. I have not heard that express before by | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
someone in your position. I suspect you have made Nigel Farage's date. | :26:01. | :26:08. | |
It is a lovely thought. I would say to Anna Soubry she is out of date | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
with this. 40 years ago there was a good argument for joining the common | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
market because tariffs around the world was so high. That has changed | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
with the World Trade Organisation. We are leaving the EU and rejoining | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
a great big world and it is exciting. She was giving an | :26:26. | :26:34. | |
interesting perspective on what could happen in nine months rather | :26:35. | :26:35. | |
than two years. I thank you both. It was Philip Hammond's first | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
budget on Wednesday - billed as a steady-as-she-goes | :26:41. | :26:42. | |
affair, but turned out to cause uproar after the Chancellor appeared | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
to contradict a Tory manifesto commitment with an increase | :26:49. | :26:50. | |
in national insurance contributions. The aim was to address what some see | :26:51. | :26:53. | |
as an imbalance in the tax system, where employees pay | :26:54. | :27:01. | |
more National Insurance The controversy centres | :27:02. | :27:03. | |
on increasing the so-called class 4 rate for the self-employed who make | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
a profit of more than ?8,060 a year. It will go up in stages | :27:07. | :27:09. | |
from 9% to 11% in 2019. The changes mean that over one | :27:10. | :27:16. | |
and a half million will pay on average ?240 a year | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
more in contributions. Some Conservative MPs were unhappy, | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
with even the Wales Minister saying: "I will apologise to every | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
voter in Wales that read the Conservative manifesto | :27:31. | :27:33. | |
in the 2015 election." The Sun labelled Philip | :27:34. | :27:34. | |
Hammond "spite van man". The Daily Mail called the budget | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
"no laughing matter". By Thursday, Theresa May | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
said the government One of the first things I did | :27:44. | :27:45. | |
as Prime Minister was to commission Matthew Taylor to review the rights | :27:46. | :27:52. | |
and protections that were available to self-employed workers | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
and whether they should be enhanced. People will be able to look | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
at the government paper when we produce it, showing | :27:59. | :28:01. | |
all our changes, and take And, of course, the Chancellor will | :28:02. | :28:03. | |
be speaking, as will his ministers, to MPs, businesspeople and others | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
to listen to the concerns. Well, the man you heard mentioned | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
there, Matthew Taylor, has the job of producing | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
a report into the future Welcome. The Chancellor has decided | :28:16. | :28:28. | |
the self-employed should pay almost the same in National Insurance, not | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
the same but almost, as the employed will stop what is left of your | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
commission? The commission has a broader frame of reference and we | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
are interested in the quality of work in the economy at the heart of | :28:42. | :28:47. | |
what I hope will be proposing is a set of shifts that will improve the | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
quality of that work so we have an economy where all work is fair and | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
decent and all jobs give people scope for development and | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
fulfilment. The issue of taxes a small part. You will cover that? We | :29:00. | :29:08. | |
will, because the tax system and employment regulation system drive | :29:09. | :29:10. | |
particular behaviours in our labour market. You approve I think of the | :29:11. | :29:17. | |
general direction of this policy of raising National Insurance on the | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
self-employed. Taxing them in return perhaps for more state benefits. Why | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
are so many others on the left against it from Tim Farron to John | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
McDonnell? Tax rises are unpopular and it is the role of the opposition | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
parties to make capital from unpopular tax rises. I think as tax | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
rises go this is broadly progressive. There are self-employed | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
people on low incomes and they will be better off. It is economic league | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
rational because the reason for the difference in National Insurance -- | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
economically. It was to do with state entitlements. The government | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
is consulting about paid parental leave. A series of governments have | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
not been good about thinking about medium sustainability of the tax | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
base. Self-employment is growing. But it is eroding the tax base. It | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
is important to address those issues. A number of think tanks have | :30:12. | :30:18. | |
said this is a progressive move. Yet, a number of left-wing | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
politicians have been against it. And a number of Tories have said | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
this is a progressive move and not a Tory government move, the balance of | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
you will pay more tax, but you will get more state benefits is not a | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
Tory approach to things. That a Tory approach will be you will pay less | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
tax but entitled to fewer benefits as well. | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
I preferred in and policies to politics -- I prefer policies. When | :30:45. | :30:54. | |
people look at the policy and when they look the fact that there is no | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
real historical basis for that big national insurance differential, | :30:59. | :31:01. | |
they see it is a sensible policy. I don't have to deal with the | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
politics. There has been a huge growth in self-employment from the | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
turn of the millennium. It's been strongest amongst older workers, | :31:09. | :31:10. | |
women part-timers. Do you have any idea, do you have | :31:11. | :31:18. | |
the data in your commission that could tell us how many are taking | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
self-employment because they like the flexibility and they like the | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
tax advantages that come with it, too, or they are being forced into | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
it by employers who don't want the extra costs of employment? Do we | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
know the difference? We do, broadly. Most surveys on self-employment and | :31:37. | :31:43. | |
flexible forms of employment suggest about two thirds to three quarters | :31:44. | :31:45. | |
enjoy it, they like the flexibility, they like the autonomy and about a | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
third to one quarter are less happy. That tends to be because they would | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
like to have a full-time permanent job. It is not necessary that they | :31:55. | :31:56. | |
don't enjoy what they are doing, they would like to do other things. | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
And some of the protections that come with it? Yes. There are some | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
people who are forced into southern employees by high-risk but also some | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
people feel like they can't get a proper job as it were. -- | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
self-employment by people who hire them. It is on the narrow matter of | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
tax revenues but if you are employed on ?32,000 the state will take over | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
?6,000 in national insurance contributions, that is quite chunky. | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
If you are self-employed it is ?2300. But the big difference | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
between those figures isn't what the employee is paying, it's the | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
employer's contributions up to almost 14%, and cupped for as much | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
as you are paid. What do you do about employers' contributions for | :32:43. | :32:51. | |
the self employed? -- it is uncapped for as much. What I recommend is | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
that we should probably move from taxing employment to taxing labour. | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
We should probably have a more level playing field so it doesn't really | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
matter... Explained that I thought it was the same thing. If you are a | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
self-employed gardener, you are a different tax regime to a gardener | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
who works for a gardening firm. On the individual side and on the firm | :33:12. | :33:20. | |
side. As we see new business models, so-called gig working, partly with | :33:21. | :33:23. | |
technology, we need a more level playing field saying that we're | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
taxing people's work, not the form in which they deliver that. That is | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
part of the reason we have seen the growth of particular business | :33:33. | :33:34. | |
models. They are innovative and creative and partly driven by the | :33:35. | :33:40. | |
fact that if you can describe yourself as self-employed there are | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
tax advantages. Coming out in June? Will you come back and talk to us? | :33:45. | :33:46. | |
Yes. We say goodbye to viewers | :33:47. | :33:48. | |
in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes, | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
we'll be talking to the former Tory MP who was the root | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
of Donald Trump's allegation Hello, welcome to Sunday Politics | :33:58. | :34:13. | |
East, I'm Stuart White. Later in the programme, | :34:14. | :34:15. | |
how they do it in Germany where they have had elected | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
mayors since the 1950s. If you're not competing | :34:19. | :34:20. | |
on this international Well, in the studio this week, | :34:21. | :34:27. | |
Norman Lamb, the Lib Dem MP for North Norfolk and Richard Bacon, | :34:28. | :34:38. | |
the Conservative MP But let's start with the budget | :34:39. | :34:40. | |
and some new investment We have been told to expect | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
a share of the ?270 million announced for science and research | :34:45. | :34:50. | |
and the ?300 million set aside to encourage the brightest and best | :34:51. | :34:56. | |
to study at our universities. But the big news was | :34:57. | :34:59. | |
?59 million in new money for our part of | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
the Midlands engine. A number of projects | :35:05. | :35:06. | |
in Northamptonshire get some of the money, | :35:07. | :35:08. | |
including a new driving emissions There's also money for several | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
long-awaited road schemes and for developing | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
the cultural quarter in Luton. If you look around the whole | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
area there, we have recently done all the | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
station up and we have come down and done all | :35:25. | :35:33. | |
area around the cultural quarter, done up, we launched it last year | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
and the plan is to do up that entire area and make it a cultural | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
This comes on top of ?206 million, investment through previous | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
growth deals into the south east Midlands and Northamptonshire area. | :35:47. | :35:49. | |
A further 59 million will enable us to deliver the infrastructure that | :35:50. | :35:52. | |
There will also be a ?300 million fund to help companies with | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
the increase in business rates, ?100 million | :35:57. | :35:57. | |
the pressures in A and ?2 billion to help councils with social care. | :35:58. | :36:06. | |
1 billion now, the rest over the next three years. | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
And controversially, he is paying for | :36:10. | :36:18. | |
some of that by increasing national insurance contributions by the | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
It's not acceptable, this change affects those ordinary | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
working families who have taken the risk of setting up a small | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
business and who many of which employ apprentices | :36:28. | :36:28. | |
and are the backbone of our | :36:29. | :36:30. | |
economy and it just makes them feel that we have broken our promise. | :36:31. | :36:33. | |
It's not acceptable, it cannot be allowed to proceed. | :36:34. | :36:35. | |
The reason the Chancellor has given the increase is | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
self-employed people overall pay less tax than those who are | :36:40. | :36:42. | |
And this was a budget about fairness and the overall point | :36:43. | :36:45. | |
that he made was that it is not fair the self-employed people are paying | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
less than employed people for the same money that they own. | :36:50. | :36:57. | |
Of all the figures that the Chancellor | :36:58. | :37:00. | |
announced today, one of the most striking | :37:01. | :37:01. | |
was the sheer number of | :37:02. | :37:03. | |
additional elderly people in the country who require social care. | :37:04. | :37:05. | |
And the demographics of the country, that | :37:06. | :37:07. | |
number is just going to go up and up. | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
So I think it was right to give an increase in funding for the next | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
three years to meet the immediate pressures. | :37:17. | :37:17. | |
A small amount of money for social care, ?1 billion when ?5 | :37:18. | :37:20. | |
billion has been taken out over the last four | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
Anything is welcome but this is a sticking plaster for a much, | :37:24. | :37:30. | |
much more serious problem and I think | :37:31. | :37:31. | |
many of us were hoping that this was the opportunity, | :37:32. | :37:34. | |
given that he said nothing about it back in November, | :37:35. | :37:36. | |
to really, really do something substantial to make real change. | :37:37. | :37:39. | |
This isn't going to solve the problem, which is just going to go | :37:40. | :37:42. | |
So, Norman Lamb, a sticking plaster, not | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
Yeah, we lurch from one crisis to another. | :37:46. | :37:48. | |
I mean, if the truth be known, no political party | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
has got a solution for the NHS and the care system. | :37:52. | :37:54. | |
It is not sustainable in the way we are | :37:55. | :37:56. | |
But you would know that from having been a | :37:57. | :37:59. | |
I don't think it's really acceptable that we | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
have now over a million older people across our country who have care | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
And, of course, the consequences of that is | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
that they end up in hospital unnecessarily which is disastrous | :38:13. | :38:14. | |
for them and it creates an extra burden on the NHS. | :38:15. | :38:21. | |
So, it is for that reason that I have brought together | :38:22. | :38:23. | |
ten Conservative MPs, ten Labour MPs, slightly less Lib Dem MPs, | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
and together we called on the Prime Minister to set up | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
what we are calling an NHS and care convention | :38:31. | :38:32. | |
to engage with the public in a serious, mature debate | :38:33. | :38:35. | |
about how we fund a modern and effective health | :38:36. | :38:37. | |
The increase in the National Minimum Wage will cost 900 million | :38:38. | :38:51. | |
this year so that leaves a million, 100 million. | :38:52. | :38:53. | |
It is completely inadequate and you'll | :38:54. | :39:00. | |
-- it'll actually, because the health foundation, | :39:01. | :39:01. | |
organisation says the gap is about ?2 billion, | :39:02. | :39:09. | |
the net effect of this will actually be that there will be | :39:10. | :39:11. | |
more older people in the coming year without care needs met who will end | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
It's a disaster and the government needs to | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
step up to the plate and do something about it. | :39:19. | :39:20. | |
But they don't have the money, do they? | :39:21. | :39:22. | |
The Chancellor has announced an extra ?2 billion. | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
Now, people can argue about the amount of | :39:27. | :39:28. | |
And the first billion comes in in the first year. | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
But the point is this, at the end of the | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
day, Norman is right that we have a big problem that no | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
political party has solved about care and the health service. | :39:41. | :39:42. | |
Every night in the Norfolk and Norwich, there are between 50 | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
and 80 patients who shouldn't be there costing ?303 each. | :39:46. | :39:47. | |
That's just one Acute Hospital in one part of our county, that's | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
probably six to ?8 billion a year, the same is true elsewhere in the | :39:51. | :39:53. | |
But they are turning up there because they can't get help | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
I accept that completely and that is why we have got to have a | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
much more integrated and holistic system. | :40:02. | :40:03. | |
Everybody agrees with that but nobody does it though, do they? | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
If they look at the way they do it in Northumbria, NHS adult | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
services, adult social services run by NHS Northumbria and they have | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
zero delayed discharge because they manage and plan it better. | :40:17. | :40:18. | |
Some of it is about money but it isn't all | :40:19. | :40:20. | |
about money, it is about running it much, much better and much, much | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
It's both extra money and better organisation. | :40:25. | :40:31. | |
Let's talk about this breaking the manifesto | :40:32. | :40:33. | |
pledge over national insurance as well. | :40:34. | :40:34. | |
That is the other one that people seem to be getting very hot about. | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
Well, this is the newspapers, one of my colleagues... | :40:39. | :40:40. | |
I mean, we didn't make a manifesto pledge to put ?2 billion | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
extra into social care but we have done it and the money has to be | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
I'm not in the slightest bit worried about this. | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
Circumstances change and you have to change things. | :40:53. | :40:54. | |
The fact is that the public are very good at demanding | :40:55. | :40:56. | |
what they have to recognise, and I applaud the | :40:57. | :40:59. | |
Chancellor for this, is if you're going to have to have extra | :41:00. | :41:02. | |
spending, it needs to be paid for and it has | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
and this Chancellor has refused to do that | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
Don't we say when we get a pledge, a pledge is a pledge and | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
actually you should have planned for all of those other things | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
Well, we knew exactly what was going to happen in health | :41:18. | :41:20. | |
Norman, Norman, one day I'm going to have a chance to | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
I know, normally in the House of Commons you | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
don't let me do that but on this occasion, you are going to. | :41:29. | :41:38. | |
You can't prepare for everything, you | :41:39. | :41:39. | |
Things change, circumstances change, people's demands change and in a | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
democracy you have to respond to that. | :41:44. | :41:44. | |
The fact is, when you have people setting up businesses clearly | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
for tax purposes, except that not everybody does that, but that has | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
been an increasing trend, particularly among the higher paid, | :41:51. | :41:52. | |
it is right if you're doing the same work at the same page, you should be | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
Well, look, my party suffered as a result of making a pledge which | :41:57. | :42:03. | |
we didn't keep and we have learned the lesson from that. | :42:04. | :42:06. | |
People expect when you say in an election... | :42:07. | :42:08. | |
They are different, the pledges, though, | :42:09. | :42:09. | |
If you say in an election campaign, there | :42:10. | :42:19. | |
will be no increase in tax, in national | :42:20. | :42:21. | |
insurance or in VAT, people | :42:22. | :42:22. | |
understand that that is what you mean. | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
We made a mistake and we have learned the lesson from that. | :42:26. | :42:27. | |
But the Conservatives have failed again. | :42:28. | :42:29. | |
That's the real lesson. from somewhere. | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
We can't spend money unless we get it in. | :42:35. | :42:36. | |
We totally agree with that you knew what was | :42:37. | :42:38. | |
Two months from now, we will know the | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
name of the first ever elected mayor but Cambridgeshire and Peterborough. | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
Whoever wins will have powers over housing, | :42:47. | :42:48. | |
But it still feels like small beer when you see how they do | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
Tom Barton has been to Heidelberg in Germany, the twin city | :42:53. | :42:55. | |
with Cambridge, to see how their mayor shapes up. | :42:56. | :43:02. | |
Home to an ancient university visited by millions of | :43:03. | :43:05. | |
tourists each year, one of Europe's scientific centres. | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
It's easy to see why Heidelberg and Cambridge are | :43:10. | :43:12. | |
For now though, there is one big difference. | :43:13. | :43:21. | |
Key local decisions effecting the city and its | :43:22. | :43:23. | |
surrounding area are taken by a directly elected mayor. | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
It's a very powerful position and by having such a position, you | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
really can change the city in this or this direction. | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
Just like Cambridge, science and technology | :43:36. | :43:37. | |
are major employers here, accounting for as many as six | :43:38. | :43:40. | |
Key among those employers is the German Cancer Research | :43:41. | :43:46. | |
Institute, two Noble Prizes have been awarded for work here and | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
attracting that level of talent means ensuring Heidelberg is a good | :43:51. | :43:53. | |
There are many issues we need to discuss with local | :43:54. | :44:03. | |
government, including housing, being an attractive city for our | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
scientists which come from all over the world and if we want to the best | :44:10. | :44:12. | |
brains, and therefore the best city to have one elected mayor is very | :44:13. | :44:15. | |
important for us because he needs to understand our needs because he | :44:16. | :44:18. | |
If you want an idea of the sort of thing an | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
elected mayor can achieve, just look at this. | :44:24. | :44:25. | |
It's a brand-new district of new homes and high-tech office | :44:26. | :44:27. | |
space that is being built on derelict railway line. | :44:28. | :44:34. | |
Building here has been pushed through by | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
Heidelberg's elected mayor and when it is finished, it should | :44:40. | :44:42. | |
bring more than 7000 high-value jobs to the city. | :44:43. | :44:44. | |
But there are also limits to what Heidelberg's mayor | :44:45. | :44:46. | |
The current mayor wanted to build an extension to this | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
historic theatre but local people objected, held a referendum and | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
This local journalist says that shows how | :44:56. | :45:06. | |
important it is to have checks and balances on the mayor's power. | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
I think it is very important because the position of the mayor | :45:11. | :45:13. | |
He is the head of the city administration that is 2000 | :45:14. | :45:20. | |
something people so that is a powerful complex and he's the only | :45:21. | :45:26. | |
one in Heidelberg who can move things on his own, like one person. | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
Heidelberg is home to Germany's oldest university, founded in 1386. | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
Professor Michael Haus runs the politics department | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
there and is an expert in local government. | :45:40. | :45:41. | |
And he warns that mayoral systems can put | :45:42. | :45:43. | |
too much power in the hands of one person. | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
A directly elected mayor concentrates attention, of course he | :45:48. | :45:54. | |
will try to put up his own agenda and push it through and so on. | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
This, of course, can be perceived as a | :46:01. | :46:02. | |
concentration of power at the expense of parties and party | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
So what of the man who holds that power? | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
At Heidelberg City Hall, I met up with the current mayor. | :46:12. | :46:14. | |
Eckart Wurzner has held the office since 2006 and he is very | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
clear that the city benefits from having a powerful mayor. | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
You need the power, the thing about a position like my position, | :46:25. | :46:30. | |
Otherwise you have a lot of political debate and very | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
And today, you have to react faster than in the past. | :46:36. | :46:44. | |
The thing about the digital New World, | :46:45. | :46:46. | |
if you are not competing on | :46:47. | :46:48. | |
Well, the idea of an elected mayor may be | :46:49. | :46:55. | |
new to Cambridgeshire, it is | :46:56. | :46:56. | |
a common form of local government elsewhere in Europe. | :46:57. | :47:06. | |
And that means whoever wins May's election, | :47:07. | :47:09. | |
there is lots to be learned from the experience of places like | :47:10. | :47:12. | |
So, here in the studio, the ceremonial mayor | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
So what does Wisbech want out of this? | :47:16. | :47:18. | |
Well, basically, we want more money and more of a say in how that money | :47:19. | :47:21. | |
And how confident are you that you will get that, then? | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
Well, it is early days at the moment. | :47:26. | :47:27. | |
We haven't actually got the elected mayor | :47:28. | :47:28. | |
yet and the combined authority has just been set up. | :47:29. | :47:31. | |
But I'm fairly confident that we will get what we | :47:32. | :47:33. | |
And if you had more money, what would you spend it on? | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
Well, the key things that Wisbech would | :47:38. | :47:44. | |
really like to see is some major upgrades to the A47 and also a | :47:45. | :47:47. | |
And they want to make you a garden town? | :47:48. | :47:54. | |
Yes, that's building an extra 10,000 homes in Wisbech, with the | :47:55. | :47:57. | |
So, if you don't get this, what will you do? | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
I think it is a little early days to be asking that question at | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
We don't even have the mayor in place just yet. | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
But the people of Wisbech and of Fenland | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
won't take it sitting down and we'll make sure our voice is heard. | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
Do you think devolution is a good idea? | :48:16. | :48:17. | |
I do, I mean, we are talking about an | :48:18. | :48:19. | |
extra ?20 million per year for the next 30 years and I just | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
want to make sure that Wisbech and Fenland | :48:24. | :48:24. | |
Are we missing out in other parts of the | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
region because we are not devolving, I'm thinking Norfolk and Suffolk | :48:31. | :48:33. | |
I mean, I strongly favour devolving power, giving us in a sense control | :48:34. | :48:41. | |
over our destiny and I think it is got to happen at some point | :48:42. | :48:44. | |
and my worry is that we will be slightly left behind. | :48:45. | :48:47. | |
This is happening all over the country and we are seeing | :48:48. | :48:49. | |
now places like Greater Manchester taking greater control, getting a | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
bit more control over the resource and more resource and making things | :48:55. | :48:57. | |
happen and using the money more effectively. | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
Richard Bacon, if you talk to anybody, they always say, | :49:01. | :49:02. | |
yeah, I am in favour of devolution but not this devolution because it | :49:03. | :49:05. | |
Yeah, I supported it, it wasn't perfect and | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
I think the answer is not to support something only when it is perfect, | :49:11. | :49:13. | |
it is to support something because in principle | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
it is right and then tweek it until we get it better. | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
We have in the county of Norfolk 414 councillors and that is just | :49:22. | :49:27. | |
district and county, that excludes people | :49:28. | :49:28. | |
It feels a little top-heavy and I think we need | :49:29. | :49:35. | |
something that is leaner and faster and more responsive and can make | :49:36. | :49:38. | |
decisions better and can be more responsive to people on the ground. | :49:39. | :49:41. | |
I think if government is offering extra money, if the county is | :49:42. | :49:44. | |
prepared to go down that route, then we have got to look at it seriously. | :49:45. | :49:47. | |
I actually think it's going to come, I'm less pessimistic than Norman. | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
We are missing out at the moment but I | :49:51. | :49:53. | |
think it will come and I think there is an increasing recognition among | :49:54. | :49:55. | |
my local government colleagues in the councils that | :49:56. | :49:57. | |
in some shape or form, it will come. | :49:58. | :49:59. | |
Everybody objects to the idea of the mayor. | :50:00. | :50:01. | |
I don't think I would use the word mayor, it's a | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
I know James Cartlidge, my colleague in South | :50:06. | :50:08. | |
Suffolk, talks about the County Commissioner. | :50:09. | :50:09. | |
The Isle of Wight had a governor until relatively recently. | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
But the idea of a strong, elected, visible and sackable person who can | :50:14. | :50:16. | |
get things done, I think is a very compelling... | :50:17. | :50:18. | |
In the film, they say you need somebody like that to lead | :50:19. | :50:21. | |
Yeah, and there's a real accountability. | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
Everyone knows who is in charge and who is making | :50:25. | :50:26. | |
And, you know, having, as Richard says, eight councils in | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
Norfolk running local services is way over the top and massively | :50:31. | :50:32. | |
And the public are paying for this through their tax, they have a right | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
to expect better and I have been in meetings | :50:38. | :50:39. | |
at the roadside when we are | :50:40. | :50:40. | |
trying to get the speed limit change and two | :50:41. | :50:42. | |
or three years later, there | :50:43. | :50:44. | |
I yearn for a directly elected person who | :50:45. | :50:47. | |
can say get this done, next Tuesday, I want the road man out there. | :50:48. | :50:50. | |
Now that could happen, it does happen in | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
other parts of the world and I think we deserve that here. | :50:55. | :50:57. | |
Is this people defending their own little fiefdom | :50:58. | :50:58. | |
or is it party politics or is it just that it is right? | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
Well, there are definitely fiefdoms across | :51:03. | :51:03. | |
Norfolk who don't want to give up on their little bit of power. | :51:04. | :51:06. | |
There's also the sense that we are the | :51:07. | :51:08. | |
most centralised of any western European country. | :51:09. | :51:15. | |
Most of the money is raised nationally and that is where the | :51:16. | :51:18. | |
power so that we have the power to raise as well. | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
We are very different from Heidelberg, aren't we? | :51:25. | :51:25. | |
Because that is virtually just around one big centre. | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
Whereas we are spreading it across counties. | :51:30. | :51:31. | |
We need a solution that's right for us | :51:32. | :51:32. | |
and I actually think that the counties | :51:33. | :51:34. | |
and the local areas, if you | :51:35. | :51:35. | |
had powerful county committees and you had local councillors | :51:36. | :51:38. | |
with local autonomy, they could actually see a | :51:39. | :51:40. | |
benefit to them personally as elected local politicians with more | :51:41. | :51:42. | |
ability to make real decisions that mattered. | :51:43. | :51:44. | |
Often it is combined, it's in a small clique at the centre. | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
I think this could actually work for the villages and the market | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
towns and the parishes better than what | :51:53. | :51:54. | |
And people identify with our county of Norfolk. | :51:55. | :51:57. | |
It has a very strong identity there and I think | :51:58. | :51:59. | |
unitary council which did everything in a locality with strong devolved | :52:00. | :52:08. | |
power to local committees across Norfolk, then it | :52:09. | :52:10. | |
We could use the available public money for running | :52:11. | :52:13. | |
services rather than the bureaucracy. | :52:14. | :52:14. | |
Gary, does that fill you with hope or concern? | :52:15. | :52:17. | |
It fills me with hope, I think, yeah. | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
I think this is going to turn out to be a | :52:22. | :52:23. | |
good thing and I think that those councils who decided that they | :52:24. | :52:26. | |
didn't want to be involved are properly going to end up | :52:27. | :52:29. | |
And Norman of course is likely to be a candidate for Mayor of | :52:30. | :52:37. | |
Cambridgeshire because as his majority goes down and down in North | :52:38. | :52:40. | |
Norfolk, he's starting to look elsewhere. | :52:41. | :52:41. | |
They have said it every election and it never works. | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
Right, now for our round-up of the political week | :52:46. | :52:47. | |
in 60 seconds with Deborah McGurran. | :52:48. | :52:54. | |
Fears for the future of Vauxhall workers in Luton after the French | :52:55. | :52:57. | |
car giant PSA announced it was to buy the company. | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
But one of the town's MPs is relatively relaxed | :53:03. | :53:04. | |
The reality is that Peugeot, Citroen have a big market in | :53:05. | :53:12. | |
Britain, they wouldn't want to upset that market and having a | :53:13. | :53:14. | |
manufacturing footprint here I think is a very important part of having | :53:15. | :53:17. | |
Head teachers in Essex have written to their MPs criticising the | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
Chancellor of the Exchequer Philip Hammond for his stance on school | :53:22. | :53:23. | |
One of his sharpest critics is the current head | :53:24. | :53:29. | |
You too can start at Shenfield High School | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
and perhaps become Chancellor of the Exchequer but sadly | :53:35. | :53:37. | |
Philip Hammond hasn't remembered that schools need | :53:38. | :53:39. | |
Transport Secretary Chris Grayling extremely | :53:40. | :53:46. | |
proud of the new investment announced in the budget, traffic | :53:47. | :53:48. | |
This will smooth the flow of traffic through it, | :53:49. | :53:54. | |
it will help the overall flow of traffic up the A11. | :53:55. | :53:57. | |
It is one part of a programme of smaller | :53:58. | :54:00. | |
big investment we are making on roads like the A47. | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
And MEP Alex Mayer cooks up a storm as part of | :54:06. | :54:08. | |
Richard Bacon, all the schools say they need the money. | :54:09. | :54:21. | |
It is not right, is it, to put all the money into free schools? | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
I think, I think it is true that there is a | :54:25. | :54:27. | |
I've met with some of our own local headteachers, not just in my | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
area but the association that represents them across Norfolk and | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
I'm hoping to have meetings with ministers to discuss this in more | :54:35. | :54:36. | |
detail, to draw their attention to the concerns of head teachers | :54:37. | :54:39. | |
because it is not balanced at the moment and we need an adjustment. | :54:40. | :54:42. | |
If you had those meetings, do they really listen? | :54:43. | :54:44. | |
It depends who is in government at any | :54:45. | :54:47. | |
So, in this case, I am hoping that they will, yes. | :54:48. | :54:57. | |
There's extra money for a small cohort of | :54:58. | :55:01. | |
Everyone else will lose out and it will be 8% less funding | :55:02. | :55:07. | |
in real terms by 2020 per student and that will have real consequences | :55:08. | :55:10. | |
approach, this return to grammar schools as well. | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
I failed the 11 plus and I was condemned as a | :55:15. | :55:16. | |
I think it is wholly inappropriate to make those | :55:17. | :55:23. | |
judgments and we know that it has a disproportionate | :55:24. | :55:26. | |
impact on children from lower income backgrounds. | :55:27. | :55:29. | |
There is no evidence to support this at all. | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
But, at the moment, people getting into schools because their | :55:34. | :55:35. | |
parents move into houses near a good school... | :55:36. | :55:44. | |
But, of course, what happens with grammar schools is that every | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
child who have parents who can afford it, | :55:50. | :55:51. | |
cram those children with the private tuition to get them | :55:52. | :55:53. | |
I am, I went to a direct grant school and I think the problem | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
with grammar schools, actually, you had a clip earlier on | :56:00. | :56:01. | |
In Germany, they don't have this argument largely. | :56:02. | :56:04. | |
They have a very stratified system with gymnasium. | :56:05. | :56:06. | |
The famous grammar schools. They are all well resourced with good | :56:07. | :56:14. | |
teaching that is appropriate for the students and the flexibility to move | :56:15. | :56:17. | |
between the layers depending upon the aptitude and the talents of the | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
child. That is what we need. Some people would say that you are an | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
example of the fact that even if you do not pass the 11 plus, you can | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
still do very well. I happen to be lucky enough to go to a new | :56:31. | :56:33. | |
comprehensive that had arrived in the town. If I had been on the other | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
side of the river, I would've gone to a secondary moderns. I would not | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
have had the academics child and I do not want to to that. There is no | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
evidence for this at all. We need a system that works there everyone. | :56:47. | :56:49. | |
That deals with the intelligence and aptitude in run. Good. We get on | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
quite well really. We really have to quite well really. We really have to | :56:54. | :56:59. | |
end it there. Thank you very much indeed. That is all from us. You can | :57:00. | :57:01. | |
watch the programme online through Now the government plans for new | :57:02. | :57:04. | |
grammar schools. The Education Secretary | :57:05. | :57:19. | |
Justine Greening was speaking to a conference | :57:20. | :57:21. | |
of headteachers on Friday. They're normally a pretty polite | :57:22. | :57:23. | |
bunch, but they didn't Broadcasters weren't | :57:24. | :57:25. | |
allowed into the speech, but this was captured | :57:26. | :57:32. | |
on a camera phone. And we have to recognise actually | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
for grammars, in terms of disadvantaged children, | :57:37. | :57:39. | |
that they have, they really do help them close | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
the attainment gap. And at the same time | :57:44. | :57:46. | |
we should recognise that ..That parents also want choice | :57:47. | :57:48. | |
for their children and that those schools are often | :57:49. | :57:55. | |
very oversubscribed. I suppose it is a rite of passage | :57:56. | :58:09. | |
for and education secretaries to have this at a head teachers | :58:10. | :58:14. | |
conference book the head are usually more polite. Isn't part of the | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
problem, whether one is for or against the expansion of grammar | :58:19. | :58:24. | |
schools, the government plans are complicated, you cannot sum them up | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
in a sentence. The proof of that is they can still get away with denying | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
they are expanding grammar schools. They will find an alternative | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
formulation because it is not as simple as a brute creation of what | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
we used to know is grammar schools with the absolute cut-off of the 11 | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
plus. I am surprised how easy they found it politically. We saw the | :58:46. | :58:50. | |
clip of Justine Greening being jeered a little bit but in the grand | :58:51. | :58:54. | |
scheme, compared to another government trying this idea a decade | :58:55. | :58:57. | |
ago they have got away with it easily and I think what is happening | :58:58. | :59:03. | |
is a perverse consequence of Brexit and the media attention on Brexit, | :59:04. | :59:06. | |
the government of the day can just about get away with slightly more | :59:07. | :59:11. | |
contentious domestic policies on the correct assumption we will be too | :59:12. | :59:15. | |
busy investing our attention in Article 50 and two years of | :59:16. | :59:19. | |
negotiations, WTO terms at everything we have been discussing. | :59:20. | :59:25. | |
I wonder if after grammar schools there will be examples of | :59:26. | :59:28. | |
contentious domestic policies Theresa May can slide in stock | :59:29. | :59:33. | |
because Brexit sucks the life out, takes the attention away. You are a | :59:34. | :59:41. | |
supporter. Broadly. Are you happy with the government approach? They | :59:42. | :59:47. | |
need to have more gumption and stop being apologetic. It is a bazaar | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
area of public policy where we judge the policy on grammar schools based | :59:52. | :59:57. | |
on what it does for children whose parents are unemployed, living on | :59:58. | :00:00. | |
sink estates in Liverpool. It is absurd, we don't judge any other | :00:01. | :00:06. | |
policy like that. It is simple, not contentious, people who are not | :00:07. | :00:09. | |
sure, ask them if they would apply to send their child there, six out | :00:10. | :00:14. | |
of ten said they would. Parents want good schools for their children, we | :00:15. | :00:20. | |
should have appropriate education and they should be straightforward, | :00:21. | :00:23. | |
this is about the future of the economy and we need bright children | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
to get education at the highest level, education for academically | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
bright children. It is supposed to be a signature policy of the Theresa | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
May administration that marks a government different from David | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
Cameron's government who did not go down this road. The signature is | :00:41. | :00:42. | |
pretty blurred, it is hard to read. It is. She is trying to address | :00:43. | :00:51. | |
concerns about those who fail to get into these selective schools and | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
tried to targeted in poorer areas and the rest of it. She will | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
probably come across so many obstacles. It is not clear what form | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
it will take in the end. It is really an example of a signature | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
policy not fully thought through. I think it was one of her first | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
announcements. It was. It surprised everybody. Surprised at the speed | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
and pace at which they were planning to go. Ever since, there have been | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
qualifications and hesitations en route with good cause, in my view. I | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
disagree with Juliet that this is... We all want good schools but if you | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
don't get in there and you end up in a less good school. They already do | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
that. We have selection based on the income of parents getting into a | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
good catchment area, based on the faith of the parents. That becomes | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
very attainable! I might been too shot run christenings for these. -- | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
I have been. Now, you may remember this time last | :01:45. | :01:46. | |
week we were talking about the extraordinary claims by US | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
President Donald Trump, on Twitter of course, | :01:50. | :01:51. | |
that Barack Obama had ordered And there was me thinking | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
that wiretaps went out Is it legal for a sitting | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
President to do so, he asked, concluding it was a "new low", | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
and later comparing it to Watergate. Since then, the White House has been | :02:02. | :02:10. | |
pressed to provide evidence for this It hasn't, but it seems it may have | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
initially come from a report on a US website by the former Conservative | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
MP Louise Mensch. She wrote that the FBI had been | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
granted a warrant to intercept communications between Trump's | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
campaign and Russia. Well, Louise Mensch joins | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
us now from New York. Louise, you claimed in early | :02:34. | :02:46. | |
November that the FBI had secured a court warrants to monitor | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
communications between trump Tower in New York at two Russian banks. | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
It's now four months later. Isn't it the case that nobody has proved the | :02:55. | :02:56. | |
existence of this warrant? First of all, forgive me Andrew, one | :02:57. | :03:06. | |
takes 1's life in one's hand when it is you but I have to correct your | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
characterisation of my reporting. It is very important. I did not report | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
that the FBI had a warrant to intercept anything or that Trump | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
tower was any part of it. What I reported was that the FBI obtained a | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
warrant is targeted on all communications between two Russian | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
banks and were, therefore, allowed to examine US persons in the context | :03:27. | :03:33. | |
of their investigation. What the Americans call legally incidental | :03:34. | :03:36. | |
collection. I certainly didn't report that the warrant was able to | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
intercept or that it had location basis, for example Trump tower. I | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
just didn't report that. The reason that matters so much is that I now | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
believe based on the President's reaction, there may well be a | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
wiretap act Trump Tower. If so, Donald Trump has just tweeted out | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
evidence in an ongoing criminal case that neither I nor anybody else | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
reported. He is right about Watergate because he will have | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
committed obstruction of justice directly from his Twitter account. | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
Let me come back as thank you for clarifying. Let me come back to the | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
question. -- and thank you. We have not yet got proof that this warrant | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
exists, do we? No and we are most unlikely to get it because it would | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
be a heinous crime for Donald Trump to reveal its existence. In America | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
they call it a Glomar response. I can neither confirm nor deny. That | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
is what all American officials will have to say legally. If you are | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
looking for proof, you won't get it until and unless a court cases | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
brought. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The BBC validated | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
this two months after me in their reporting by the journalist Paul | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
Wood. The Guardian, they also separately from their own sources | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
validated the existence of the warrant. If you are in America, you | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
would know that CNN and others are reporting that the investigation in | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
ongoing. Let me come onto the wider point. You believe the Trump | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
campaign including the president were complicit with the Russians | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
during the 2016 election campaign to such an extent that Mr Trump should | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
be impeached. What evidence did you have? | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
That is an enormous amount of evidence. You could start with him | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
saying, hey, Russia, if you are listening, please release all the | :05:28. | :05:29. | |
Hillary Clinton's e-mails. That's not evidence. I think it rather is, | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
actually. Especially if you look at some of the evidence that exists on | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
Twitter and elsewhere of people talking directly to his social media | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
manager, Dan should be no and telling him to do that before it | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
happened. There is a bit out there. The BBC itself reported that in | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
April of last year, a six agency task force, not just the FBI, but | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
the Treasury Department, was looking at this. I believe there is an | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
enormous amount of evidence. And then there is the steel dossier | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
which was included in an official report of the US intelligence | :06:03. | :06:10. | |
committee. You've also ... Just to be clear, we don't have hard | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
evidence yet whether this warrant exists. It may or may not. There is | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
doubt about... There are claims about whether there is evidence | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
about Mr Trump and the Russians. That is another matter. You claimed | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
that President Putin had Andrew Breitbart murdered to pave the way | :06:27. | :06:33. | |
for Steve Bannon to play a key role in the Trump administration. I | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
haven't. You said that Steve Bannon is behind bomb threats to Jewish | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
community centres. Aren't you in danger of just peddling wild | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
conspiracy theories? No. Festival, I haven't. No matter how many times | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
people say this, it's not going to be true -- first of all. I said in | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
twitter I believe that to be the case about the murder of Andrew | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
Breitbart. You believe President Putin murdered him. I didn't! You | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
said I reported it, but I believed it. You put it on twitter that you | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
believed it but you don't have a shred of evidence. I do. Indeed, I | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
know made assertions. What is the evidence that Mr Putin murdered | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
Andrew Breitbart? I said I believe it. You may believe there are | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
fairies at the bottom of your garden, it doesn't make it true. I | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
may indeed. And if I say so, that's my belief. If I say I am reporting, | :07:29. | :07:37. | |
as I did with the Fisa warrant exists, I have a basis in fact. They | :07:38. | :07:44. | |
believe is just a belief. I know you are relatively new to journalism. | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
Let me get the rules right. Andrew, jealousy is not your colour... If it | :07:51. | :07:53. | |
is twitter, we don't believe it but if it is on your website, we should | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
believe it? If I report something and I say this happened, then I am | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
making an assertion. If I describe a belief, I am describing a belief. | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
Subtlety may be a little difficult for you... No, no. If you want to be | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
a journalist, beliefs have to be backed up with evidence. Really? Do | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
you have a faith? It's not a matter of faith, maybe in your case, that | :08:20. | :08:22. | |
President Putin murdered Andrew Breitbart. A belief and a report at | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
two different things and no matter how often you say that they are the | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
same, they will never be the same. You've said in today's Sunday Times | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
here in London that you've turned into" a temporary superpower" where | :08:37. | :08:46. | |
you "See things really clearly". Have you become delusional? No. I am | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
describing a biological basis for ADHD, which I have. As any of your | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
viewers who are doctors will know. It provides people with | :08:57. | :08:59. | |
unfortunately a lot of scattered focus, they are very messy and | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
absent-minded but when they are interested in things and they have | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
ADHD they can have a condition which is hyper focus. You concentrate very | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
hard on a given subject and you can see patterns and connections. That | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
is biological. Thank you for explaining that. And for getting up | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
early in New York. The first time ever I have interviewed a temporary | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
superpower. Thank you. You are so lucky! You are so lucky! I don't | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
think it's going to happen again. Please don't ask us to comment on | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
that interview! I will not ask you, viewers will make up their own | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
minds. Let's come back to be more mundane world of Article 50. Stop | :09:39. | :09:39. | |
the killing! Will it get through at the | :09:40. | :09:47. | |
government wanted it? Without the Lords amendment falling by the way | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
that? I am sure the Lord will not try to ping-pong this back and | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
forth. So we are at the end of this particular legislative phase. The | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
fact that all three Brexit Cabinet ministers, number ten often don't | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
like one of them going out on a broadcast interview on a Sunday, | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
they've all been out and about. That suggests to me they are working on | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
the assumption it will be triggered this week. This week. The | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
negotiations will begin or at least the process begins. The negotiation | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
process may be difficult, given all of the European elections. The Dutch | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
this week. And then the French and maybe the Italians and certainly the | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
Germans by the end of September, which is less predictable than it | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
was. Given all that, what did you make of Anna Soubry's claim, Viacom | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
on her part, that we may just end up crashing out in six months question | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
-- fear on her part. It was not just that that we made that deliberately | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
organising. I want us to get on with the deals. | :10:47. | :10:49. | |
Everyone knows a good deal is the best option. Who knows what is going | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
to be on the table when we finally go out? Fascinatingly, the demand | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
for some money back, given the amount of money... Net gains and net | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
costs in terms of us leaving for the EU. It is all to play for. That will | :11:06. | :11:12. | |
be a possible early grounds for a confrontation between the UK and the | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
EU. My understanding is that they expect to do a deal on reciprocal | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
rights of EU nationals, EU nationals here, UK citizens there, quite | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
quickly. They want to clear that up and that will be done. Then they | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
will hit this problem that the EU will be saying you've got to agree | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
the divorce Bill first before we talk about the free trade bill. | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
David Davis saying quite clearly, no, they go together because of the | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
size of the bill. It will be determined, in our part, by how good | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
the access will be. The mutual recognition of EU residents' rights | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
is no trouble. A huge amount of fuss is attracted to that subject but it | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
is the easiest thing to deal with, as is free movement for tourists. | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
Money is what will make it incredibly acrimonious. Incredibly | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
quickly. I imagine the dominant story in the summer will be all | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
about that. This was Anna Soubry's implication, members of the | :12:07. | :12:08. | |
governors could strongly argue, things are so poisonous and so | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
unpleasant at the moment, the dealers are advancing -- members of | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
the government. Why not call it a day and go out on WTO terms while | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
public opinion is still in that direction in that Eurosceptic | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
direction? No buyers' remorse about last year's referendum. The longer | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
they leave it, view more opportunity there is for some kind of public | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
resistance and change of mind to take place. The longer believe it, | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
the more people who voted for Brexit and people who voted Remain and | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
think we didn't get world War three will start being quite angry with | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
the EU for not agreeing a deal. In terms of the rights of EU nationals | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
he and Brits abroad, by all accounts, 26 of the 27 have agreed | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
individually. Angela Merkel is the only person who has held that up. | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
That will be dealt with in a matter of days. The chances of a deal being | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
done is likely but in ten seconds... It would not be a bad bet to protect | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
your on something not happening, you might get pretty good odds? The odds | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
are going up that a deal doesn't happen. But, as I said earlier, the | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
House of Commons will not endorse no deal. We are either in an early | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
election or she has to go back again. Either way, you will need us! | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
We will be back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two ahead of what looks like | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
being a big week in politics. We will be back here same time, same | :13:30. | :13:31. | |
place. Remember, if it's Sunday, | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:35. | :13:38. |