19/03/2017 Sunday Politics East


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19/03/2017

Andrew Neil and Stewart White with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew is joined by head of NHS Providers Chris Hopson, Nick Clegg MP and Andrew Gwynne MP.


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:34.:00:36.

She faces huge political fights over Brexit, Scottish independence,

:00:37.:00:40.

After a tumultuous political week, we'll analyse the PM's prospects.

:00:41.:00:53.

With chatter increasing about a possible early General Election,

:00:54.:00:55.

Jeremy Corbyn's campaign chief joins me live.

:00:56.:01:00.

NHS bosses warn health services in England are facing "mission

:01:01.:01:03.

impossible" and waiting times for operations will rocket,

:01:04.:01:07.

unless hospitals are given more cash this year.

:01:08.:01:10.

Here in the East: Providers joins me live.

:01:11.:01:15.

will businesses in our region take off or will they be grounded

:01:16.:01:18.

after we move closer to leaving the EU?

:01:19.:01:25.

All that to come before 12:15pm, and I'll also be talking

:01:26.:01:35.

to the former leader of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg

:01:36.:01:38.

from his party's spring conference in York.

:01:39.:01:40.

With me here in the studio, throughout the programme,

:01:41.:01:45.

three of the country's top political commentators:

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Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

:01:48.:01:53.

They'll be tweeting their thoughts using #bbcsp.

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So, the political challenges facing Theresa May are stacking up.

:01:55.:01:58.

As well as negotiating Britain's exit from the EU,

:01:59.:02:03.

the PM must now deal with SNP demands for a second referendum

:02:04.:02:07.

on Scottish independence, backbenchers agitating against cuts

:02:08.:02:11.

to school budgets, and a humiliated Chancellor forced to u-turn on a key

:02:12.:02:14.

budget measure just one week after announcing it.

:02:15.:02:19.

Here's Adam Fleming on aturbulent political week

:02:20.:02:21.

Monday, 11:30am, TV crews gather in the residence of the First

:02:22.:02:38.

Minister of Scotland, who's got a surprise.

:02:39.:02:39.

She wants a vote on whether Scotland should leave the UK

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By taking the steps I have set out today I am ensuring that Scotland's

:02:43.:02:46.

future will be decided, not just by me, the

:02:47.:02:49.

Scottish Government, or the

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SNP, it will be decided by the people of Scotland.

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Westminster, 6:25pm the same day, MPs reject

:02:53.:03:02.

amendments to the legislation authorising the Prime Minister to

:03:03.:03:06.

The Bill ceremonially heads to the Lords where peers abandoned

:03:07.:03:20.

attempts to change it and it becomes law.

:03:21.:03:22.

But Downing Street doesn't trigger Article 50 as many had expected.

:03:23.:03:28.

Some say they were spooked by Nicola Sturgeon.

:03:29.:03:31.

We get an e-mail from the Treasury can the

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We get an e-mail from the Treasury cancelling

:03:48.:03:49.

the planned rise in National Insurance for

:03:50.:04:00.

the self-employed announced the budget.

:04:01.:04:02.

It's just minutes before Prime Minister's Questions at noon.

:04:03.:04:04.

The trend towards greater self-employment does create a

:04:05.:04:06.

We will bring forward further proposals

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but we will not bring forward increases to NICs later in this

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It seems to me like a government in a bit of chaos here.

:04:12.:04:16.

By making this change today we are listening to our colleagues

:04:17.:04:18.

fulfil both the letter and the spirit of our manifesto tax

:04:19.:04:22.

Thursday, 7am, Conservative campaign HQ and the

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Electoral Commission fines the party ?70,000 for misreporting spending

:04:33.:04:34.

But that's not what the Prime Minister

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Because at 12:19pm she gives her verdict on a

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We should be working together, not pulling apart.

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We should be working together to get that

:04:49.:04:50.

right deal for Scotland, that

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So, as I say, that's my job as Prime Minister and

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so for that reason I say to the SNP now is not the time.

:04:57.:05:00.

Friday and time for the faithful to gather.

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SNP activists at their spring conference

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Conservatives in Cardiff to hear the Prime Minister

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promote her plan for a more meritocratic Brexit Britain.

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At 11:10am comes some news about a newspaper that's frankly

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I'm thrilled and excited to be the new editor of The

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Evening Standard and, you know, with so many

:05:28.:05:29.

big issues in our world what

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good analysis, great news journalism.

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It's a really important time for good journalism that The

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Evening Standard is going to provide.

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There was no let-up yesterday as Gordon Brown launched proposals

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Under my proposals we keep the Barnett

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Formula, we keep the fiscal transfers, but we also bring the

:05:56.:05:58.

and fisheries back to the Scottish Parliament.

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And just think, all this and we're still counting down to the

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What a week in politics. It has been a torrid week for the government,

:06:06.:06:23.

Isabel Oakeshott, but does Theresa May shake it off, or is this a sign

:06:24.:06:27.

of worse to come? We may all be feeling a bit breathless after the

:06:28.:06:30.

events of last week and we are in for a a long war of attrition with

:06:31.:06:38.

the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon's strategy will be to foster over lengthy

:06:39.:06:42.

periods of time as much resentment and anger as she can in Scotland and

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try to create the impression that independence is somehow inevitable.

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Is Scotland the biggest challenge for Theresa May in the next year or

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so? I think it probably is because if you look at how relatively easily

:06:57.:07:00.

the Brexit bill went through on an issue where people could hardly feel

:07:01.:07:04.

more passionate in the Commons, and actually despite all the potential

:07:05.:07:07.

drama it has gone through quite smoothly. To go back to your

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original question, she just carries on. Don't underestimate the basic

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quiet and will towards Theresa May amongst the majority of Tory

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backbenchers. Yes, there are difficult little issues over school

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funding, sorry, it's not a little issue, it is a big one but she will

:07:25.:07:28.

get over that and treat each thing as it comes and keep pressing on.

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Has she not called Nicola Sturgeon's Bluff in that the First Minister

:07:33.:07:37.

said I want a referendum, here is roughly when I wanted, the Prime

:07:38.:07:42.

Minister says you're not having one. What happens next? She has done

:07:43.:07:46.

quite well and impact the progress Theresa May made this week in

:07:47.:07:51.

frustrating Nicola Sturgeon was evident when Nicola Sturgeon said,

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OK, maybe we can talk about the timing after. Nicola Sturgeon has

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already been the first one to blink. I would slightly disagree with

:07:59.:08:01.

Isabel Oakeshott, I don't agree Scotland will be the biggest hurdle

:08:02.:08:05.

for her. What this week showed as is Theresa May... It was a reality

:08:06.:08:11.

bites week. Theresa May is juggling four mammoth crises at the same

:08:12.:08:14.

time, Brexit obviously which I still think will be the biggest challenge

:08:15.:08:17.

to get a good deal, Trump left field who popped up at GCHQ on Friday and

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Scotland and the fiscal challenge, this enormous great problem, and it

:08:25.:08:30.

reinforced the point this is not an easy time in politics. The budget is

:08:31.:08:36.

over four years. That was one small problem, the immediate problem is

:08:37.:08:39.

how to fill the social care crisis and the ageing demographic. This is

:08:40.:08:42.

not normal times in British politics and Theresa May does not have a

:08:43.:08:45.

normal workload on her plate, hence why I think we will see more

:08:46.:08:50.

mistakes made as time goes on and as she has this almost impossible

:08:51.:08:55.

workload to juggle. How tempted do you think the Prime Minister is to

:08:56.:08:58.

call an early election? There is more chatter about it now. Is she

:08:59.:09:03.

tempted and if there is will she succumb? I will answer that in a

:09:04.:09:07.

second as Harold Wilson used to say. I want to agree, disagree with the

:09:08.:09:11.

rest of the panel about how she has out manipulated Nicola Sturgeon this

:09:12.:09:14.

week. I think Nicola Sturgeon expected Theresa May to say no to

:09:15.:09:19.

her expected timetable. It would be amazing if she had said yes. She

:09:20.:09:23.

expected her to say no but Sturgeon catalyst that will fuel support for

:09:24.:09:27.

her cause. There is no sign of that. The latest poll this morning shows

:09:28.:09:33.

66-44 against independence and only 13% think they would be better off

:09:34.:09:39.

with an independent Scotland and a clear majority do not want a second

:09:40.:09:43.

referendum. But the calculation of resistance from Westminster combined

:09:44.:09:46.

with Brexit which hasn't started yet, I think this is her

:09:47.:09:49.

calculation, she didn't expect Theresa May to say, sure, go ahead,

:09:50.:09:54.

I'm sure she expected Theresa May to say no, you can't have it at your

:09:55.:09:58.

desired timetable. On the wider point, I think Theresa May is in a

:09:59.:10:02.

fascinating position, she is both strong because she faces weak

:10:03.:10:06.

opposition and is ahead in the opinion polls. But faces the most

:10:07.:10:11.

daunting agenda of any Prime Minister for 40 or 50 years, I

:10:12.:10:16.

think. So it's a weird combination. I don't think she wants to call an

:10:17.:10:19.

election. I don't think she has thought about how you would

:10:20.:10:22.

manipulate it, what the trigger would be, and whether she's got the

:10:23.:10:26.

energy and space to prepare for and then mount a campaign was beginning

:10:27.:10:32.

the Brexit negotiation. Now, you could see the cause would be the

:10:33.:10:37.

small majorities that will make her life hellish, which it will do.

:10:38.:10:40.

Whether a landslide would help is another question, they can be

:10:41.:10:44.

difficult too. But I think the problems outweigh the advantages of

:10:45.:10:48.

going early. Do you think she would go for an early election? I don't

:10:49.:10:52.

and I think you have to look at the rhetoric coming out of No 10 which

:10:53.:10:56.

is so firm on this question, it is a delicious prospect for us as

:10:57.:10:59.

commentators to think there might be an election around the corner but

:11:00.:11:02.

they are so firm on this I can't see it happening. I agree, we are in

:11:03.:11:07.

unanimous agreement on this one. It is superficially attractive because

:11:08.:11:10.

she would love the big majority and she would get a lot more through

:11:11.:11:13.

Parliament especially with Brexit. The nitty-gritty of it makes an

:11:14.:11:17.

early General Election this year almost impossible. How do you write

:11:18.:11:21.

a manifesto on high Brexit versus soft Brexit, it opens up a Pandora's

:11:22.:11:26.

box of uncertainties. And there is enough with the European elections.

:11:27.:11:30.

The EU will say are we negotiating with you or the person who may

:11:31.:11:34.

replace you? How do you keep the Tory party united going to an

:11:35.:11:38.

election? How do you call one, with a vote of no confidence in yourself

:11:39.:11:42.

you may end up losing. Easy on paper but difficult in practice. We shall

:11:43.:11:43.

see. So if Theresa May did go

:11:44.:11:45.

for an early election this spring, The party's campaigns

:11:46.:11:48.

and elections chief Andrew Gwynne Andrew Gwynne, the government, as we

:11:49.:11:58.

have just been talking about, executed one of the most

:11:59.:12:01.

embarrassing U-turns in recent history this week. It has been a

:12:02.:12:05.

torrid time for the Theresa May government. Why are the Tories still

:12:06.:12:08.

so chipper? The Labour Party has been on an

:12:09.:12:13.

early election footing since before Christmas and we are preparing

:12:14.:12:16.

ourselves for that eventuality in case that does come. That means that

:12:17.:12:20.

we've got to get ourselves into a position whereby we can not only

:12:21.:12:25.

challenge the government but we can also offer a valuable alternative

:12:26.:12:31.

for the British people to choose from should that election arise. So,

:12:32.:12:37.

would you welcome an early General Election? Well, of course, I don't

:12:38.:12:40.

want this government to be in power so of course if there is an

:12:41.:12:43.

opportunity to put a case to the British people as to why there is a

:12:44.:12:47.

better way, and I believe the Labour way is the better way than of course

:12:48.:12:52.

we would want to put that case to the country. So, would Labour vote

:12:53.:12:57.

in the Commons for an early election? Well, of course as an

:12:58.:13:01.

opposition, not wanting to be in opposition, wanting to be in

:13:02.:13:05.

government should the government put forward a measure in accordance with

:13:06.:13:09.

the Fixed-term Parliaments Act then that's something we would very

:13:10.:13:13.

seriously have to consider. I know you would have to consider it but

:13:14.:13:16.

would you vote for an early election or not? Well, of course we want to

:13:17.:13:21.

be the government so if the current government puts forward measures to

:13:22.:13:24.

bring forward a General Election we would want to put our case to the

:13:25.:13:28.

British public and that's one of the jobs that I've been given, together

:13:29.:13:33.

Labour Party organisation early into a position where we can fight a

:13:34.:13:37.

General Election -- organisationally. For the avoidance

:13:38.:13:41.

of doubt, if the Government work to issue a motion in the Commons for an

:13:42.:13:45.

early election, the Labour Party would vote for an early election?

:13:46.:13:49.

It would be very difficult not, Andrew. If the Government wants to

:13:50.:13:53.

dissolve parliament, wants a General Election, we don't want the Tories

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in government, we want to be in government and we want to have that

:13:57.:14:01.

opportunity to put that case to the British people.

:14:02.:14:03.

Are you ready for an early election? You say you have been on a war all

:14:04.:14:12.

but since the Labour conference last autumn, but are you ready for one?

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How big is the election fighting fund? We have substantial amounts of

:14:15.:14:18.

money in our fighting fund, that is true, because not only has the

:14:19.:14:22.

Labour Party managed to eliminate its own financial deficit that it

:14:23.:14:27.

inherited from previous election campaigns, we have also managed to

:14:28.:14:35.

build up a substantial fund in the off chance we have an election. We

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have also expanded massively operations at Labour HQ, we are

:14:41.:14:44.

taking on additional staff, and one of the jobs that myself and Ian

:14:45.:14:48.

Lavery who I job share with are currently doing is to go around the

:14:49.:14:51.

Parliamentary Labour Party to make sure that Labour colleagues have the

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support and the resources that they need, should they have to face the

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electorate in their constituencies. So you are on a war footing, ready

:15:00.:15:03.

for the fight, you say you would vote for the fight, so have you got

:15:04.:15:07.

your tax and spend policies ready to roll out? That is something the

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shadow Treasury team will be discussing. One of the things is, if

:15:13.:15:17.

there is an early General Election, the normal timetable for these

:15:18.:15:20.

things gets fast-track because our policy decision-making body, its

:15:21.:15:25.

annual conference, we have the national policy forum that creates

:15:26.:15:30.

policies suggestions. You have been on a war footing since the last

:15:31.:15:33.

Labour conference, that is what Mr Corbyn told us. So you must have a

:15:34.:15:37.

fair idea of what policies you would fight an early election on. How much

:15:38.:15:42.

extra per year would you spend on the NHS? Well, look, I'm not going

:15:43.:15:47.

to set out the Labour manifesto for an election that hasn't been called.

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I'm just asking you about the NHS. You must have a policy for that. We

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have a policy for the NHS. So how much extra? I will not set out

:15:56.:16:01.

Labour's tax-and-spend policies here on The Sunday Politics when there

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hasn't even been election called. You said you had been on a war

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footing and you are prepared to vote for one, so if you can't Tommy that,

:16:09.:16:14.

can you tell me what the corporation rate tax on company profits be under

:16:15.:16:19.

a Labour government -- tell me that. You will have to be patient. I have.

:16:20.:16:25.

And wait for Mrs May to trigger an early election. If there is an

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election on the 4th of May the rich would have to be issued on the 27th

:16:29.:16:33.

of March, so that's not long to wait. If that date passes we aren't

:16:34.:16:38.

having an election on the 4th of May and the normal timetable for policy

:16:39.:16:43.

development will continue. All right. You lost Copeland, I think

:16:44.:16:47.

you were in charge of a by-election for Labour, your national poll

:16:48.:16:51.

ratings are still dire, even after week of terrible times for the

:16:52.:16:56.

Tories. Sometimes you even lose local government by-elections in

:16:57.:17:00.

safe seats, including in the place you are now, in Salford. How long

:17:01.:17:04.

does Mr Corbyn have to turn this around? Well, look, the issue of the

:17:05.:17:09.

Labour leadership was settled last year. The last thing the Labour

:17:10.:17:13.

Party now needs is another period of introspection with the Labour Party

:17:14.:17:17.

merely talks to the Labour Party. We are now on an election footing in

:17:18.:17:24.

case Mrs May does trigger an early General Election. We need to be

:17:25.:17:29.

talking to the British people are not to ourselves. So any speculation

:17:30.:17:33.

about the Labour leadership might excite you in the media but actually

:17:34.:17:37.

for us in the Labour Party it's about re-engaging and reconnecting

:17:38.:17:41.

with the voters. Rather than being excited, I feel quite daunted at the

:17:42.:17:44.

prospect of an early election. So I wouldn't get that right. Normally,

:17:45.:17:50.

given the number of mistakes this government has made, and its

:17:51.:17:54.

mid-term, you would expect any self-respecting opposition to be

:17:55.:17:58.

about ten points ahead. On the latest polls this morning you are 17

:17:59.:18:04.

behind. There is a 27-30 point gap from where you should normally be as

:18:05.:18:08.

an opposition. Are you telling me that if that doesn't change, you

:18:09.:18:11.

still fight the General Election with Mr Corbyn?

:18:12.:18:17.

These are matters for the future. I believe the leadership issue was

:18:18.:18:25.

settled last year. We have had two leadership contest in two years.

:18:26.:18:29.

Would you seriously contemplate going into the next election, if it

:18:30.:18:33.

is early I perfectly understand Jeremy Corbyn is your man, but if it

:18:34.:18:39.

is not until 2020, and you are still 17 points behind in the polls, will

:18:40.:18:43.

you go into the next election like that? There is a lot of future

:18:44.:18:48.

looking and speculation there, I don't know what the future holds,

:18:49.:18:57.

where the Labour Party will be in 12 months let alone by 2020 summit

:18:58.:18:59.

cross those bridges when we come to it. My main challenge is to make

:19:00.:19:02.

sure the Labour Party is in the best possible place organisationally to

:19:03.:19:05.

fight an election, that's my challenge and I'm up for that to

:19:06.:19:08.

make sure we are in the best possible place to make sure Labour

:19:09.:19:15.

returns as many Labour MPs as possible. Thank you for joining us.

:19:16.:19:21.

And we're joined now from the Liberal Democrats' spring

:19:22.:19:23.

conference in York by the former Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg.

:19:24.:19:25.

Good morning. In his conference speech today, Tim Farron lumps

:19:26.:19:34.

Theresa May with Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump. In

:19:35.:19:39.

what way is Mrs May similar to Marine Le Pen? Of course he is not

:19:40.:19:48.

saying Theresa May is identical to Marine Le Pen, I think what Tim

:19:49.:19:53.

Wilby spelling out shortly in his speech is that we need to be aware

:19:54.:19:57.

what's going on in the world, the International settlement that was

:19:58.:20:04.

arrived at after the First World -- Second World War, that bound

:20:05.:20:10.

supranational organisations is under attack from characters as diverse as

:20:11.:20:15.

Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump, and that by side in so

:20:16.:20:20.

ostentatiously with Donald Trump and pursuing this very hard Brexit,

:20:21.:20:23.

Theresa May appears to be giving succour to that much more

:20:24.:20:28.

isolationist chauvinist view of the world than the multilateral approach

:20:29.:20:32.

that Britain has subscribed to for a long time. The exact words he plans

:20:33.:20:38.

to use are welcome to the New World order, Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump,

:20:39.:20:46.

Marine Le Pen, Theresa May, aggressive and teenage to, anti-EU,

:20:47.:20:52.

nationalistic. In what way is Mrs May fitting into any of that? In

:20:53.:20:56.

what way is she similar to Vladimir Putin? I'm not aware she has

:20:57.:21:02.

interfered with other people's elections. The clue is in the quote

:21:03.:21:07.

you just read out, which is the world order. The world order over

:21:08.:21:12.

the last half century or more, by the way a lesson I'm afraid we have

:21:13.:21:16.

to learn in Europe because of the terrible bloodshed of two world was

:21:17.:21:21.

in the space of a few decades, was based on the idea might is not

:21:22.:21:26.

right. Strong arm leaders cannot throw their weight around. What we

:21:27.:21:32.

have now with Putin, the populism across parts of Europe and Donald

:21:33.:21:38.

Trump who thinks the EU will unravel is a shift to a radically different

:21:39.:21:43.

view of the world. Mrs May doesn't think any of that. She is not

:21:44.:21:49.

antenatal, not anti-EU, she says she wants the EU to succeed. She's not

:21:50.:21:55.

aggressive as far as I'm aware so I'm not sure why you would lump the

:21:56.:21:58.

British Prime Minister in with these other characters. Let me explain, by

:21:59.:22:05.

choosing this uncompromising approach to Brexit, clearly in doing

:22:06.:22:13.

so she, in my view, maybe not yours or others, is pursuing a self

:22:14.:22:17.

harming approach to the United Kingdom but also pulling up the

:22:18.:22:20.

threads that bind the rest of the European Union together, in so

:22:21.:22:25.

ostentatiously siding with Donald Trump, somehow declaring in my view

:22:26.:22:30.

speciously that we can make up with the trade we will lose, she's not

:22:31.:22:39.

challenging the shift to a more chauvinist approach to world affairs

:22:40.:22:43.

that is happening in many places. You are at your party's Spring

:22:44.:22:48.

conference, I think we can agree any Lib Dem come back will take a long

:22:49.:22:53.

time. Would Tory dominance be more effectively challenged by a

:22:54.:22:58.

realignment of the centre and the centre-left? Are you working towards

:22:59.:23:03.

that? I missed half the question but I think you are talking about a

:23:04.:23:10.

realignment. As a cook a way to get over Tory dominance, would you want

:23:11.:23:14.

that to happen? Are you working towards that? My view is the

:23:15.:23:19.

recovery of the Lib Dems will be quicker than you suggest. People

:23:20.:23:24.

often forget that even the low point of our fortunes in the last election

:23:25.:23:28.

we still got a million more votes than the SNP, it's only because we

:23:29.:23:33.

have got this crazy electoral system... But the SNP fight in

:23:34.:23:41.

Scotland, you fight in the whole country! But I'm saying the way

:23:42.:23:48.

seats are allocated overlooks the fact that 2.5 million still voted

:23:49.:23:56.

for us. But my own view is of course there are people feeling

:23:57.:24:00.

increasingly homeless in the liberal wing of the Conservative Party

:24:01.:24:03.

because they are now in a party which is in effect indistinguishable

:24:04.:24:07.

from Ukip on some of the biggest issues of the day, and homeless folk

:24:08.:24:14.

on the rational, reasonable wing of the Labour Party. I would invite

:24:15.:24:18.

them to join the Liberal Democrats and I would invite everyone across

:24:19.:24:22.

parties to talk about the idea is that bind us because the Westminster

:24:23.:24:27.

village can invest a lot of energy building new castles in the sky,

:24:28.:24:31.

inventing new names for parties when actually what you want is for people

:24:32.:24:34.

on the progressive centre ground of British politics to talk about the

:24:35.:24:46.

ideas that unite them, from the dilemmas of artificial intelligence

:24:47.:24:51.

to climate change. Do you think in your own view, can Brexit still be

:24:52.:24:55.

thwarted or is it now a matter of getting the best terms? I think we

:24:56.:25:04.

are in an interlude, almost a calm between two storms, the storm of the

:25:05.:25:08.

referendum itself and the collision between the Government's stated

:25:09.:25:12.

ambitions for Brexit and the reality of having to negotiate something

:25:13.:25:16.

unworkable with 27 other governments. The one thing I can

:25:17.:25:21.

guarantee you is that what the Government has promised to the

:25:22.:25:32.

British people cannot happen. Over a slower period of time we will work

:25:33.:25:37.

out our new relationship with the European Union. Theresa May said she

:25:38.:25:41.

will settle divorce arrangements, and pensions, so one, negotiate new

:25:42.:25:48.

trade agreements, new climate change policies and so on, and have all of

:25:49.:25:52.

that ratified within two years, that will not happen so I think there

:25:53.:25:57.

will be a lot of turbulence in the next couple of years. Will you use

:25:58.:26:02.

this turbulence to try to thwart Brexit, to find a way of rolling

:26:03.:26:09.

back the decision? It's not about repeating the debates of the past or

:26:10.:26:13.

thwarting the will of the people but it is comparing what people were

:26:14.:26:18.

promised from the ?350 million for the NHS every week through to this

:26:19.:26:24.

glittering array of new trade agreements we will sign across the

:26:25.:26:28.

world, with the reality that will transpire in the next couple of

:26:29.:26:32.

years and at that point, yes it is my belief people should be able to

:26:33.:26:36.

take a second look at if that is what they really want. A couple of

:26:37.:26:41.

quick questions, would you welcome an early general election? I always

:26:42.:26:48.

welcome them, we couldn't do worse than we did last time. That is

:26:49.:26:55.

certainly true. You have a column in the Evening Standard, have you

:26:56.:26:57.

spoken to the new editor about whether he will keep your column or

:26:58.:27:04.

spike it? No, I wait in nervous anticipation. Can you be a newspaper

:27:05.:27:11.

editor in the morning and an MP in the afternoon? Do I think that's

:27:12.:27:19.

feasible? Sorry, I missed a bit. There is no prohibition, no law

:27:20.:27:24.

against MPs being editors. They have been in the past and no doubt will

:27:25.:27:29.

again in the future. He is taking a lot on, he is an editor, also

:27:30.:27:36.

wanting to be an MP, a jetsetting academic in the States, working in

:27:37.:27:40.

the city, I suspect something will give. It seems to me even by his

:27:41.:27:45.

self-confidence standards in his own abilities I suspect he is taking on

:27:46.:27:51.

a little bit too much. Very diplomatic, Mr Clegg, I'm sure you

:27:52.:27:54.

will get to keep the column. Thanks for joining us.

:27:55.:27:59.

Now, for the last six months England's NHS bosses have been

:28:00.:28:01.

warning the health service needs more money to help it meet

:28:02.:28:04.

But in his first Budget, the Chancellor offered

:28:05.:28:07.

no immediate relief, and today the head of

:28:08.:28:09.

the organisation representing England's NHS trusts says hundreds

:28:10.:28:11.

of thousands of patients will have to wait longer for both emergency

:28:12.:28:14.

care and planned operations, unless the Government

:28:15.:28:16.

Warnings over funding are not exactly new.

:28:17.:28:23.

Back in 2014 the head of the NHS in England, Simon Stevens,

:28:24.:28:26.

published his plan for the future of the health service.

:28:27.:28:31.

In his five-year forward view, Stevens said the NHS in England

:28:32.:28:34.

would face a funding shortfall of up to ?30 billion by 2020.

:28:35.:28:37.

To bridge that gap he said the NHS would need more money

:28:38.:28:40.

from the Government, at least ?8 billion extra,

:28:41.:28:43.

and that the health service could account for the rest by making

:28:44.:28:46.

The Government says it's given the health service more than what it

:28:47.:28:53.

asked for, and that NHS in England will have received

:28:54.:28:56.

That number is disputed by NHS managers and the chair

:28:57.:29:01.

of Parliament's health committee, who say the figure is more

:29:02.:29:03.

like ?4.5 billion, while other parts of the health and social care budget

:29:04.:29:07.

have been cut, putting pressure on the front line.

:29:08.:29:12.

Last year, two thirds of NHS trusts in England finished

:29:13.:29:16.

the year in the red, and despite emergency bailouts

:29:17.:29:18.

from the Government, the NHS is likely to record

:29:19.:29:20.

Meanwhile national targets on waiting times for A

:29:21.:29:25.

departments, diagnostic tests, and operations are being

:29:26.:29:28.

This month's Budget provided ?2 billion for social care

:29:29.:29:35.

but there was no new cash for the NHS, leading trusts to warn

:29:36.:29:39.

that patient care is beginning to suffer, and what is being asked

:29:40.:29:42.

And I'm joined now by the Chief Executive of NHS

:29:43.:29:48.

Providers in England, Chris Hopson.

:29:49.:29:53.

Welcome to the programme. Morning, Andrew. I will come onto the extra

:29:54.:30:00.

money you need to do your job properly in a minute but first, part

:30:01.:30:05.

of the deal was you had to make 22 billion in efficiency savings, not a

:30:06.:30:08.

bank that money but spend it on patient care, the front line, and so

:30:09.:30:14.

on. How is that going? So, last parliament we realised around 18

:30:15.:30:17.

billion of productivity and efficiency savings, we are realising

:30:18.:30:20.

more this year so we are on course to realise 3 billion this year, that

:30:21.:30:24.

is a quarter of a billion more than last year but all of us in the NHS

:30:25.:30:29.

knew the 22 billion would be a very stretching target and we are

:30:30.:30:34.

somewhat inevitably falling short. So it is 22 billion by 2,020.

:30:35.:30:40.

Roughly. That was the time. We are now into 2017. So how much of the 22

:30:41.:30:49.

billion have you achieved? We realised around 3 billion last year

:30:50.:30:53.

and we will realise 3 billion this year, Court of billion more, 3.25

:30:54.:30:59.

billion this year, so we are on course for 18-19,000,000,000. By the

:31:00.:31:03.

2021 period? You are not that far away. The problem is the degree to

:31:04.:31:07.

which demand is going up. We have record demand over the winter period

:31:08.:31:12.

and that actually meant we have seen more people than we have ever seen

:31:13.:31:16.

before but performance is still under real pressure. Let me come

:31:17.:31:22.

onto that. When you agreed on the 22 billion efficiency savings plus some

:31:23.:31:26.

extra money from the government, I know there is a bit of an argument

:31:27.:31:30.

about how much that is actually worth, had you not factored in this

:31:31.:31:35.

extra demand that you saw coming over the next three or four years?

:31:36.:31:39.

Let's be very clear committee referred to Simon Stevens's forward

:31:40.:31:44.

view and we signed up to it but the 22 billion was a process run at the

:31:45.:31:48.

centre of government by the Department of Health with its arms

:31:49.:31:51.

length bodies, NHS England and others and is not something that was

:31:52.:31:55.

consulted on with the NHS. But you signed up to it. We always said that

:31:56.:31:59.

the day that that Spending Review was announced, the idea that the NHS

:32:00.:32:05.

where customer demand goes up something like four or 5% every

:32:06.:32:09.

year, the idea that in the middle years of Parliament we would be able

:32:10.:32:12.

to provide the same level of service when we were only getting funding

:32:13.:32:18.

increases of 1.3%, 0.4% and 0.7%, and I can show you the press release

:32:19.:32:23.

we issued, we always said there was going to be a gap and that we would

:32:24.:32:28.

not be able to deliver what was required. The full 22 billion in

:32:29.:32:34.

other words? What we said to Simon Stevens at the Public Accounts

:32:35.:32:37.

Committee a few months ago, the NHS didn't get what it was asked for.

:32:38.:32:42.

Today the NHS, cope with the resources it has according to you.

:32:43.:32:49.

How much more does it need? Are reported is about 2017-18 and we

:32:50.:32:52.

estimate that what we are being asked to do, and again, Andrew, you

:32:53.:32:56.

clearly set it out in the package, we are a long way off the four-hour

:32:57.:33:01.

A target and a long way off the 92%. The waiting times and

:33:02.:33:05.

operations. How much more do you need? And we are making up a ?900

:33:06.:33:10.

million deficit. If you take all of those into account we estimate you

:33:11.:33:15.

would need an extra ?3.5 billion next year in order to deliver all of

:33:16.:33:19.

those targets and eliminate the deficit. That would be 3.5 billion

:33:20.:33:23.

on top of what is already planned next year and that would be 3.5

:33:24.:33:28.

billion repeated in the years to come too? Yes, Andrew it is

:33:29.:33:30.

important we should make an important distinction about the NHS

:33:31.:33:36.

versus other public services. When the last government, the last Labour

:33:37.:33:40.

government put extra money into the NHS it clearly said that in return

:33:41.:33:44.

for that it would establish some standards in the NHS Constitution,

:33:45.:33:48.

the 95% A target we have talked about and the 92% elective surgery

:33:49.:33:53.

we have talked about. The trust we represent are very clear, they would

:33:54.:33:57.

want to realise those standards, but you can only do it if you pay for

:33:58.:34:00.

it. The problem is at the moment is we are in the longest and deepest

:34:01.:34:05.

financial squeeze in NHS history. As we have said, funding is only going

:34:06.:34:09.

up by 1% per year but every year just to stand still cost and demand

:34:10.:34:14.

go up by more than 4%. There is clearly a demand for more money. I

:34:15.:34:19.

think people watching this programme will think probably the NHS is going

:34:20.:34:23.

to have to get more money to meet the goals you have been given. I

:34:24.:34:27.

think they would also like to be sure that your Mac running the NHS

:34:28.:34:32.

as efficiently as it could be. We read this morning that trusts have

:34:33.:34:36.

got ?100 million of empty properties that cost 10 million to maintain, 36

:34:37.:34:41.

office blocks are not being used, you have surplus land equivalent to

:34:42.:34:46.

1800 football pitches. Yes, there are a number of things that we know

:34:47.:34:51.

in the NHS we need to do better but let me remind you, Andrew, in the

:34:52.:34:56.

last Parliament we realised ?18 billion worth of cost improvement

:34:57.:34:59.

gains. We are going to realise another 3 billion this year, 0.25

:35:00.:35:06.

billion more than last year so these things are being targeted. But

:35:07.:35:10.

having that surplus land, it is almost certainly in areas where

:35:11.:35:12.

there is a demand for housing. Absolutely. So why not release it

:35:13.:35:19.

for housing? You get the money, the people get their houses and its

:35:20.:35:23.

contribution and a signal that you are running NHS assets as

:35:24.:35:26.

efficiently as you can? Tell me if I'm going to too much detail for

:35:27.:35:32.

you. One of the reasons as to why our trusts are reluctant to realise

:35:33.:35:35.

those land sales is because there is an assumption that the money would

:35:36.:35:40.

go back to the Treasury and wouldn't benefit NHS trusts. You could make a

:35:41.:35:43.

deal, couldn't you? That's part of the conversation going on at the

:35:44.:35:47.

moment. The issue is that we would want to ensure that if we do release

:35:48.:35:52.

land, quite rightly the benefit, particularly in foundation trusts

:35:53.:36:04.

which are, as you will remember, deliberately autonomous

:36:05.:36:05.

organisations, that they should keep the benefit of those land sales.

:36:06.:36:08.

Have you raised that with the government?

:36:09.:36:08.

Yes we have. What did they say? They are in discussions of it. We heard

:36:09.:36:20.

somebody who moved from one job and then to another job and given a big

:36:21.:36:25.

salary and then almost ?200,000 as a payoff. There is a national mood for

:36:26.:36:29.

the NHS to get more money. But before you give anybody any more

:36:30.:36:32.

money you want to be sure that the money you have got already is being

:36:33.:36:36.

properly spent, which for us, is the patient at the end of the day. And

:36:37.:36:41.

yet there seem to be these enormous salaries and payoffs. I've worked in

:36:42.:36:49.

a FTSE 100 on the board of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs and I

:36:50.:36:51.

have worked in large organisations. I can look you completely straight

:36:52.:36:54.

in the eye and tell you that the jobs that our hospital, community,

:36:55.:36:57.

mental health and ambulance chief Executives do are amongst the most

:36:58.:37:00.

complicated leadership roles I have ever seen. It doesn't seem to me to

:37:01.:37:05.

be unreasonable that in order to get the right quality of people we

:37:06.:37:08.

should pay an appropriate salary. The reality is the salaries are paid

:37:09.:37:12.

are not excessive when talking about managing budgets of over ?1 billion

:37:13.:37:17.

a year and talking about managing tens of thousands of staff. There

:37:18.:37:25.

was a doctor working as a locum that earned an extra ?375,000. One of the

:37:26.:37:28.

problems in the NHS is a mismatch between the number of staff we need

:37:29.:37:32.

and the number of staff coming through the pipeline. What is having

:37:33.:37:35.

to happen is if you want to keep a service going you have to use Mackem

:37:36.:37:40.

and agency staff. Even at that cost? You would not want to pay those

:37:41.:37:46.

amounts. But you are. The chief Executives's choice in those areas

:37:47.:37:50.

is giving the service open or employing a locum. I'm sure you

:37:51.:37:55.

could find a locum prepared to work for less than that. What indication,

:37:56.:37:58.

what hopes do you have of getting the extra ?3 billion? The government

:37:59.:38:03.

has been very clear, for the moment it wants to stick to the existing

:38:04.:38:08.

funding settlement it has agreed. So there was nothing in the budget. Can

:38:09.:38:12.

I finish by making one important point. Please, finish. This is the

:38:13.:38:17.

first time the NHS has said before the year has even started that we

:38:18.:38:23.

can't deliver on those standards. We believe, as do most people who work

:38:24.:38:28.

in the NHS, that the NHS is on a gradual slow decline. This is a very

:38:29.:38:32.

important inflection point to Mark, this is the first time before the

:38:33.:38:35.

financial year starts that we say we cannot meet the targets we are being

:38:36.:38:39.

asked to deliver and are in the NHS Constitution. We have run out of

:38:40.:38:43.

time. Chris Hopson, thank you for being with me.

:38:44.:38:44.

It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:45.:38:46.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:38:47.:38:49.

In the programme - on the road to leaving the EU

:38:50.:39:06.

as the bill becomes law, we'll see what lies

:39:07.:39:08.

We speak to the MP leading the charge against some

:39:09.:39:14.

It does fall upon the Conservative parliamentary party to actually

:39:15.:39:24.

go through everything in detail and provide a

:39:25.:39:26.

holding the Government to account type of organisation

:39:27.:39:28.

because the opposition are not doing that.

:39:29.:39:35.

With me this week, Kelvin Hopkins the Labour MP for Luton North

:39:36.:39:40.

and James Cartilage, the Conservative MP

:39:41.:39:41.

But let's start with local lotteries, a new way for councils

:39:42.:39:46.

Local authorities who have seen their Government funding cut

:39:47.:39:51.

by 40% since 2010 were given the powers to set up their own

:39:52.:39:54.

The first in the country was set up last year in Buckinghamshire.

:39:55.:40:00.

Now, there are plans for a growing number of council lotteries

:40:01.:40:03.

across the region, in places including Daventry,

:40:04.:40:04.

Kings Lane, Corby, Peterborough and across Essex.

:40:05.:40:07.

Cooking up skills for the future, the Teamwork Trust in Corby offers

:40:08.:40:16.

classes like this for people with learning difficulties

:40:17.:40:18.

As some pots of grant funding have been cut,

:40:19.:40:24.

they have signed up to benefit from a new lottery run

:40:25.:40:27.

To find funding that makes a difference to general day-to-day

:40:28.:40:34.

opportunities we give our members, we have...

:40:35.:40:38.

We find ourselves doing more and more bids.

:40:39.:40:47.

The opportunity that the lottery gives us will help significantly.

:40:48.:40:49.

It is hoped in the Corby lottery will raise ?20,000 a year for local

:40:50.:40:52.

That is around one tenth of the amount the local borough

:40:53.:40:56.

The council insists this is not to replace grant funding.

:40:57.:41:01.

We do have a considerable amount we give out in small grants,

:41:02.:41:09.

but helping organisations receive more is a good thing to do.

:41:10.:41:11.

Regardless of local authorities having less and less money,

:41:12.:41:17.

This is about supporting our local community.

:41:18.:41:21.

Others warn about becoming reliant on lottery funding.

:41:22.:41:26.

The thing about a lottery, of course, it is dependent

:41:27.:41:28.

If it completely replaces grant funding, I think

:41:29.:41:32.

If it is additional to grant funding, fantastic.

:41:33.:41:38.

I think the reality is, it is replacing a large part

:41:39.:41:41.

of grant funding because the money just isn't available any more.

:41:42.:41:43.

At least the voluntary sector will have access to funding.

:41:44.:41:46.

Tickets will be sold online and cost ?1.

:41:47.:41:49.

Another 20p will go towards admin and VAT.

:41:50.:41:57.

The Corby lottery still needs approval

:41:58.:42:04.

But people here seem keen on taking part for a ?25,000 jackpot.

:42:05.:42:10.

Better than the National Lottery, because I think the National Lottery

:42:11.:42:12.

If it goes towards good causes locally, excellent.

:42:13.:42:23.

It is a good idea, will they reduce my council tax?

:42:24.:42:25.

No, there is no council tax reduction if you play.

:42:26.:42:29.

There you go, then, so I wouldn't play it.

:42:30.:42:31.

The fact that most of us go to things around here

:42:32.:42:40.

to help local stuff, it is absolutely great.

:42:41.:42:42.

There was also enthusiasm in Buckinghamshire.

:42:43.:42:43.

Aylesbury Vale District Council was the first in the country

:42:44.:42:48.

to launch a lottery and raised ?70,000 for good

:42:49.:42:50.

It is a winner for the good causes, naturally.

:42:51.:42:55.

It is a winner for the council, because it shows that they are

:42:56.:42:58.

taking seriously the loss in Government grants

:42:59.:43:00.

Who quite often can be perhaps the first port of call

:43:01.:43:04.

For now, lottery income will be just another ingredient when it comes

:43:05.:43:09.

But it will become more important as council budgets continue

:43:10.:43:14.

Kelvin Hopkins, if it puts money into good causes,

:43:15.:43:21.

Well, it is a relatively small amount.

:43:22.:43:26.

But it is really about the savage cuts in funding for local

:43:27.:43:29.

authorities, from central Government under six years of George

:43:30.:43:31.

Whatever they say, that is what it is really about.

:43:32.:43:38.

I think local authorities have suffered terribly from underfunding

:43:39.:43:42.

from central Government and we have to restore that so that they provide

:43:43.:43:45.

I think if we are going to make money we ought to consciously vote

:43:46.:43:51.

for the monies that is going to be spent and raised.

:43:52.:43:56.

So we pay our taxes, and those who are better off pay most,

:43:57.:43:59.

Lotteries tend to be played by people who are on low incomes.

:44:00.:44:05.

Even in the National Lottery, which supports our Olympic

:44:06.:44:12.

athletes and whatever, even there it tends

:44:13.:44:14.

to redistribute from the less better off to the better off

:44:15.:44:17.

because the better off would pay higher taxes.

:44:18.:44:19.

Otherwise, the poor substitute that cash by playing the lotteries.

:44:20.:44:21.

The answer is to put more money into our local

:44:22.:44:24.

To be clear, is about I think discretionary sums of money.

:44:25.:44:34.

It can be a huge amount of money if you are on a low income

:44:35.:44:45.

and you are putting money into that that you can't really afford to do.

:44:46.:44:48.

I think people who do are people who are going to be able

:44:49.:44:52.

The point is, if a local authority chooses to raise funds for charities

:44:53.:44:59.

and some good causes that we saw in your piece, I think

:45:00.:45:01.

It is a good example of local innovation.

:45:02.:45:04.

You worried that actually you may think it is going to a charity that

:45:05.:45:08.

you would like to support but it is up to somebody

:45:09.:45:11.

on the council who will decide whether the money goes?

:45:12.:45:14.

And it may not go where you want it to go?

:45:15.:45:16.

Think people responding in the piece were happy

:45:17.:45:18.

that it was going to something in their area.

:45:19.:45:21.

I don't think they expect to have an absolute say

:45:22.:45:23.

They said, it is supporting my local community.

:45:24.:45:26.

I think that is attractive as a prospect.

:45:27.:45:28.

I suppose the problem is if the lottery doesn't have money

:45:29.:45:31.

to give to these charities and good causes, and the money dries up?

:45:32.:45:34.

One problem I think is that there is only a certain amount of money

:45:35.:45:37.

available for putting into lotteries and it might just be

:45:38.:45:39.

that the National Lottery will lose a bit to local lotteries.

:45:40.:45:42.

But actually the total amount being raised in national

:45:43.:45:44.

You are against that, you are in favour of it?

:45:45.:45:53.

If it does what it is supposed to do, it is a good thing?

:45:54.:45:56.

This week, we moved one step closer to leaving the EU.

:45:57.:46:01.

The bill preparing the way finally passed through Parliament,

:46:02.:46:03.

well before Theresa May's deadline at the end of the month.

:46:04.:46:06.

In the run-up to the formal process of Brexit, we have been

:46:07.:46:10.

what challenges are facing us on the road ahead.

:46:11.:46:22.

# There must be some kind of way out of here #.

:46:23.:46:29.

That is what the Prime Minister will start negotiating.

:46:30.:46:33.

It is down to her, with a bit of sovereignty

:46:34.:46:35.

What we know is that there won't be as much free movement within the EU.

:46:36.:46:41.

And we are leaving the single market.

:46:42.:46:47.

We are driving to a destiny where the detail is still unknown.

:46:48.:46:56.

And as we go full throttle So into the Brexit age,

:46:57.:46:59.

Great minds are essential to the machines made

:47:00.:47:03.

in Great Britain that race on Northamptonshire's circuits.

:47:04.:47:05.

Nearby, Cambridge is arguably the brain of Britain.

:47:06.:47:08.

It has the largest pharmaceutical hub outside America.

:47:09.:47:17.

Many scientists backed Remain, but a pharmaceutical bosses

:47:18.:47:23.

I think it is a question of how we use the Freedom of Brexit.

:47:24.:47:27.

It is not Brexit itself, it is what we do with it.

:47:28.:47:31.

The investment in biopharmaceuticals is investment not for now but for 15

:47:32.:47:34.

It is up to the Government to allow a us to invest and grow here.

:47:35.:47:39.

The benefit, or the strength of Cambridge is that the world best

:47:40.:47:47.

and brightest have always come here to do their research.

:47:48.:47:54.

We are assuming that the enthusiasm of the Cambridge environment assumes

:47:55.:47:57.

that that will be more the case in the future.

:47:58.:47:59.

So medicine transcends borders globally.

:48:00.:48:01.

Right now, all goods to and from Europe do as well.

:48:02.:48:04.

All 15,000 containers on this ship could come off at Felixstowe,

:48:05.:48:07.

But if we leave the customs union, Britain's

:48:08.:48:18.

busiest container port might have to start taking a look

:48:19.:48:20.

at what is inside containers that come from the continent.

:48:21.:48:23.

44% of the country's containers arrive in Suffolk,

:48:24.:48:25.

A quarter of these container's content come from the EU.

:48:26.:48:34.

I think the ports could end up being losers because they will have

:48:35.:48:37.

to invest more time and money in making space and people

:48:38.:48:39.

available to do inspections for security checks,

:48:40.:48:41.

The point at the moment, when cargo comes in,

:48:42.:48:48.

it is all governed around the European Union and their checks.

:48:49.:48:53.

If the Government decide to keep the checks the same, then it should

:48:54.:48:56.

But it is the other type of port where the most challenging Brexit

:48:57.:49:02.

Luton and Stansted took off with the boom in budget airlines.

:49:03.:49:15.

The EU created a free aviation area, which today often makes it cheaper

:49:16.:49:19.

to fly to Copenhagen and get a train from here to Clapton.

:49:20.:49:25.

All along the ?60 billion aviation industry, they are watching

:49:26.:49:27.

and lobbying to keep the status quo with the EU.

:49:28.:49:30.

I think it is a priority that we need to really strike

:49:31.:49:34.

with Government that they need to prioritise in terms

:49:35.:49:36.

of that open access, that single aviation

:49:37.:49:38.

The lobbying that we are doing with our partners, airlines

:49:39.:49:42.

and other airports is to ensure that that is the number one priority.

:49:43.:49:45.

The Department for Transport have and the Government have

:49:46.:49:47.

Most airlines were against Britain leaving the EU.

:49:48.:49:52.

Recently, Ryanair has said that it will still expand

:49:53.:49:57.

here at its main base, adding more flights from Stansted.

:49:58.:50:01.

But Brexit brings uncertainty, and elsewhere, airlines are waiting

:50:02.:50:05.

to see what deal is struck with Europe over the skies.

:50:06.:50:09.

Here were medals were won in 2012, the loudest Leave voice was heard.

:50:10.:50:23.

Castle Point voted 74% for Brexit, the pressure to please the people

:50:24.:50:26.

and make a Team GB style success of our future outside of the EU

:50:27.:50:32.

You have got ports in Suffolk, the airport at Stansted.

:50:33.:50:38.

Are you convinced that everything will be OK when we pull out?

:50:39.:50:42.

There is no way of knowing sitting here.

:50:43.:50:44.

As I have also to my constituents corresponding about this

:50:45.:50:52.

since the Referendum, the key thing is we are about to

:50:53.:50:54.

It is difficult to predict what will come from that.

:50:55.:50:58.

My view has always been, once we decide to leave, the priority

:50:59.:51:01.

is to have a negotiation which is good spirited.

:51:02.:51:03.

By that, I mean we are seeking a deal that is good for both parties.

:51:04.:51:06.

If it happens like that, I think we will reach a good deal.

:51:07.:51:10.

Do you really think it will be like that?

:51:11.:51:12.

I think most accept that, when it starts, there will be

:51:13.:51:19.

the usual sort of playing to the gallery and so on.

:51:20.:51:22.

It might be confrontational to some extent.

:51:23.:51:23.

There will be the influence of elections.

:51:24.:51:27.

When all is said and done, it is in both parties' interest

:51:28.:51:29.

The alternative is highly uncertain for both sides

:51:30.:51:33.

You wanted to remain, yet you wanted to pull out,

:51:34.:51:37.

and you have an airport at home in Luton?

:51:38.:51:40.

With the shortage of capacity in the South East which is going

:51:41.:51:58.

to go on for a long time yet, Luton can fill up.

:51:59.:52:01.

We are at the moment expanding and I think it is going to continue

:52:02.:52:04.

to expand more quickly than investments can go in.

:52:05.:52:06.

And we are investing massively as well.

:52:07.:52:08.

I am very optimistic about Luton, and it is a major part

:52:09.:52:11.

As far as Brexit in general is concerned, I think

:52:12.:52:18.

Already, experts are starting to increase, manufacturing

:52:19.:52:22.

is going to benefit from the lower value of the pound, and we have

:52:23.:52:25.

seen massive investments going into motor industry...

:52:26.:52:28.

The big question for the motor industry.

:52:29.:52:31.

The fact is, we have had big investment planned

:52:32.:52:36.

Just today, we have heard that Toyota making massive

:52:37.:52:40.

They did say they wanted reassurances about what was going

:52:41.:52:43.

But the reality is, we're massive net importers of motor vehicles.

:52:44.:52:54.

If the pound stays down at a sensible level as it is now,

:52:55.:52:57.

the advantage of investing in Britain rather than elsewhere

:52:58.:52:59.

Already, Vauxhall in Luton, the new owners have said

:53:00.:53:05.

they are looking at expanding the supply chain in Britain

:53:06.:53:08.

because it would be the sensible thing to do given that the pound has

:53:09.:53:11.

depreciated to a more sensible level.

:53:12.:53:13.

There were always benefits and negatives to both sides.

:53:14.:53:20.

Obviously, the biggest benefit of leaving is that

:53:21.:53:26.

eventually we will be able to negotiate our own trade deal.

:53:27.:53:29.

I never disputed that things like that would be

:53:30.:53:31.

He seems confident that there is no risk.

:53:32.:53:35.

Hopefully it is outweighed by the potential for this

:53:36.:53:40.

My view is the key to it is the nature of a negotiation.

:53:41.:53:47.

As I say, if it sort of unravels and becomes confrontational,

:53:48.:53:49.

then I think that the markets will be unsteady, I think

:53:50.:53:52.

the country will be nervous, investors will be uncertain.

:53:53.:53:55.

I am confident that will not prevail in the long term

:53:56.:53:58.

because it is in both side's interest to come to a good deal.

:53:59.:54:01.

First of all, I entirely understand from the public point of view

:54:02.:54:15.

That we could have an area of immigration from the EU

:54:16.:54:21.

Clearly they have partly voted to leave in order to control that.

:54:22.:54:27.

I think we do have to be honest and say that the country

:54:28.:54:31.

will still need immigration because they are such an important

:54:32.:54:33.

part of our labour force, they do a fantastic job.

:54:34.:54:35.

They work so hard. We should be open about that.

:54:36.:54:44.

But I think we will have a deal that has some control.

:54:45.:54:48.

Just seven days after being announced in the budget,

:54:49.:54:53.

the Government has scrapped a plan to increase National Insurance

:54:54.:54:55.

In what has been called a screeching U-turn,

:54:56.:54:58.

the Chancellor Philip Hammond admitted that it was breaking

:54:59.:55:00.

the spirit if not the letter of a manifesto pledge.

:55:01.:55:02.

But it was Conservative backbenchers like Stevenage MP Stephen McPartland

:55:03.:55:08.

Earlier this week, I spoke to him about whether the plan

:55:09.:55:14.

flew in the face of Conservative values.

:55:15.:55:18.

This is something that has come out of a civil servant's bottom drawer,

:55:19.:55:24.

At the end of the day, there is issues arounds people

:55:25.:55:34.

who are self-employed paying slightly less National Insurance

:55:35.:55:36.

You know, those people have often set up the risk

:55:37.:55:40.

of creating their own small business, many of which

:55:41.:55:42.

They are the backbone of our economy.

:55:43.:55:45.

Also, they don't really get maternity pay or holiday pay,

:55:46.:55:47.

statutory sick pay, other benefits that people who are employed to get.

:55:48.:55:50.

To try and say that we are going to equalise National Insurance

:55:51.:55:54.

of it is fair because they receive the same benefits, it

:55:55.:55:57.

There is an argument that says everybody should pay the same amount

:55:58.:56:01.

If everybody is receiving the same benefits for their contribution

:56:02.:56:05.

to National Insurance, that is something that

:56:06.:56:07.

As I have said, those people who are self employed

:56:08.:56:12.

receive holiday pay, sick pay, maternity

:56:13.:56:13.

There is a whole variety of benefits they do not receive.

:56:14.:56:17.

This isn't the first time you have been a lightning rod.

:56:18.:56:19.

You stood up to the Government over tax credits.

:56:20.:56:21.

You are beginning to get yourself a reputation.

:56:22.:56:23.

From our point of view, I have spoken on a number of issues.

:56:24.:56:28.

And been successful on almost all of those issues.

:56:29.:56:30.

Occasionally, you have to stand up and speak out and say,

:56:31.:56:34.

I am standing up for ordinary working families in my constituency

:56:35.:56:37.

I am happy to speak out and if the members of Parliament

:56:38.:56:42.

are happy for me to do that, I am pleased.

:56:43.:56:44.

I don't speak on anybody else's behalf, I speak on my own.

:56:45.:56:47.

What does this say about the opposition when backbenchers

:56:48.:56:50.

are the people who seem to be holding the Government to account?

:56:51.:56:53.

The one on tax credits was done inside the Conservative Party.

:56:54.:57:03.

They don't recognise the problems, they don't know what is coming down

:57:04.:57:08.

the line, they don't really do their homework.

:57:09.:57:10.

It does fall on the Conservative parliamentary party to actually go

:57:11.:57:14.

through everything in detail and provide holding the Government

:57:15.:57:18.

to account type of organisation because the opposition

:57:19.:57:20.

Stephen McPartland, thank you very much.

:57:21.:57:23.

Kelvin Hopkins, the opposition is incredibly weak.

:57:24.:57:29.

He would say that, but I think the Government has got it wrong.

:57:30.:57:36.

Come on, it is Conservative backbenchers who are holding

:57:37.:57:39.

the Chancellor to account, not the opposition.

:57:40.:57:45.

When we were in the New Labour Government, it was often

:57:46.:57:48.

backbenchers like myself, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell

:57:49.:57:51.

who made the Government change its mind on a number of issues.

:57:52.:57:57.

Because that is what backbenchers as opposed to do.

:57:58.:57:59.

I think the Government is refusing to grasp the nettle

:58:00.:58:02.

of collecting the taxes which are avoided and evaded.

:58:03.:58:04.

This tax change was going to produce ?2 billion per year.

:58:05.:58:08.

Mr Corbyn was criticised for his performance at PM's

:58:09.:58:19.

Mr Corbyn was criticised for his performance at PM's Question Time.

:58:20.:58:21.

He were the first person to put his name in the hat.

:58:22.:58:25.

I wasn't in Prime Minister's questions this week, I didn't see.

:58:26.:58:37.

On the other hand, I stand by Jeremy.

:58:38.:58:39.

I think he represents historic Labour values and millions

:58:40.:58:43.

I think that is the way, he is the one for us.

:58:44.:58:47.

When you look, I mean, where you one of the backbenchers

:58:48.:58:50.

Are you reluctant to join in with these?

:58:51.:58:57.

I look to the underlying picture here, and that is that I respect

:58:58.:59:01.

the fact people to take risks starting a business.

:59:02.:59:03.

But we have an unavoidable mathematical fact which is

:59:04.:59:06.

that the cost of delivering welfare including the NHS, the state

:59:07.:59:09.

pension and many other benefits is increasing.

:59:10.:59:11.

You think the NIC increase was right?

:59:12.:59:16.

Think the underlying policy is right.

:59:17.:59:18.

We do have a huge change in the economy here.

:59:19.:59:20.

We have less tax coming in from more and more people

:59:21.:59:23.

We can choose to become more and more in depth as a country

:59:24.:59:27.

I think that's the way that the Chancellor executed it,

:59:28.:59:32.

in respect of the reaction to what was in the manifesto, we are

:59:33.:59:35.

But the underlying policy direction he will pursue, I welcome that.

:59:36.:59:39.

I think the country will have to come to terms with the fact that,

:59:40.:59:43.

when the economy changes, policy has to change with it.

:59:44.:59:45.

Are there other things they are going to have to do

:59:46.:59:48.

a U-turn on, do you think from the Budget and recent policies?

:59:49.:59:51.

We will have to wait and see on that one.

:59:52.:59:53.

I think that the broader direction is very sensible.

:59:54.:59:55.

We are very fortunate to have such low unemployment.

:59:56.:00:05.

I think we should remember how lucky we are compared

:00:06.:00:07.

They'll will still be decisions to make in the future.

:00:08.:00:10.

Is it a strong man who changes his mind, or somebody who doesn't

:00:11.:00:14.

If someone says, you have got it wrong and they prove their point,

:00:15.:00:18.

John Maynard Keynes, perhaps the greatest intellectual

:00:19.:00:21.

of the 20th century in Britain, said always used to say that.

:00:22.:00:24.

Now for our 60 Second round up of the week with Deborah.

:00:25.:00:31.

In the wake of January's flood warnings for the East Anglian Coast

:00:32.:00:34.

a new report has identified 64 problems and mistakes

:00:35.:00:36.

I think there are some big lessons to learn.

:00:37.:00:43.

But I think of the smaller things, sometimes it is human error,

:00:44.:00:46.

sometimes a systematic failure, but the important thing

:00:47.:00:50.

is that they are going to address it for the future from the review.

:00:51.:00:56.

MP WIll Quint is hoping that some of the money earmarked for accident

:00:57.:00:59.

and emergency departments in the last week's budget

:01:00.:01:01.

Colchester Hospital's A E department has excellent staff,

:01:02.:01:04.

but suffers from poor layout and patient flow.

:01:05.:01:09.

Warnings that withdrawing from the EU will cost

:01:10.:01:11.

They do not worry long-time Brexiteer Peter Bone.

:01:12.:01:26.

When you have a divorce, don't you split the net amount in two ?

:01:27.:01:29.

So that would be ?92 billion that should be paid back to us.

:01:30.:01:34.

Did the Prime Minister have the chance to bring this up?

:01:35.:01:36.

And Boaty McBoatface. Finally gets an outing.

:01:37.:01:39.

Scientists from the Cambridge-based British Antarctic Survey

:01:40.:01:41.

will be heading off for its first expedition.

:01:42.:01:46.

Both of you, thank you very much for being with us this week.

:01:47.:01:50.

pricing of these buildings. Thank you both. Say goodbye. Goodbye. Back

:01:51.:01:56.

to you. So, can George Osborne stay

:01:57.:02:00.

on as a member of Parliament Will Conservative backbenchers force

:02:01.:02:03.

a Government re-think And is Theresa May about to cap gas

:02:04.:02:07.

and electricity prices? Whose idea was that first of all?

:02:08.:02:20.

They are all questions for the Week Ahead to.

:02:21.:02:26.

Let's start with the story that is too much fun to miss, on Friday it

:02:27.:02:31.

was announced the former Chancellor would be the new editor of London's

:02:32.:02:35.

Evening Standard newspaper, a position he will take up in mid-May

:02:36.:02:42.

on a salary of ?200,000 for four days a week.

:02:43.:02:46.

But Mr Osborne has said he will not be stepping down as MP

:02:47.:02:49.

for Tatton in Cheshire, a job he's held since 2001,

:02:50.:02:52.

Alongside these duties, he's also chairman of

:02:53.:02:55.

While being committed to one day a week at Black Rock,

:02:56.:03:01.

an American asset management firm - a part-time role that earns him

:03:02.:03:04.

Then he's polishing his academic credentials, as a fellow

:03:05.:03:09.

at the McCain Institute, an American thinktank,

:03:10.:03:11.

And finally as a member of the Washington Speaker's Bureau,

:03:12.:03:19.

he also earns his keep as an after-dinner speaker, banking

:03:20.:03:25.

around ?750,000 since last summer.

:03:26.:03:29.

So there you go. Nice little earners if you can get them. The problem,

:03:30.:03:39.

though, is he has put second jobs on the agenda and lots of his fellow

:03:40.:03:42.

MPs are not happy because they have got second jobs but not making that

:03:43.:03:48.

kind of money. No, and a lot of MPs on both sides actually are unhappy

:03:49.:03:52.

about it exactly for those reasons. I find it a very interesting

:03:53.:03:57.

appointment. We have got these people on the centre and centre

:03:58.:04:01.

right of politics who have been used to power since 1997, they have been

:04:02.:04:05.

on the airwaves today, Tony Blair, Nick Clegg, George Osborne, and they

:04:06.:04:10.

are all seeking other platforms now because power has moved elsewhere.

:04:11.:04:15.

So Tony Blair is setting up this new foundation, Nick Clegg refused to

:04:16.:04:17.

condemn George Osborne, Tony Blair praised the appointment. They are

:04:18.:04:24.

all searching for new platforms. They might have overestimated the

:04:25.:04:28.

degree to which this will be a huge influential platform. The standard

:04:29.:04:34.

was very pro-Tory at the 2015 election but London voted Labour, it

:04:35.:04:38.

was pro-Zac Goldsmith but they elected Sadiq Khan. It might be

:04:39.:04:42.

overestimating the degree to which this is a hugely influential paper.

:04:43.:04:47.

But I can see why it attracts him as a platform when all these platforms

:04:48.:04:53.

have disappeared, eg power and government. All of these people who

:04:54.:04:58.

used to be in power are quietly getting together again, Mr Blair on

:04:59.:05:03.

television this morning, George Osborne not only filling his bank

:05:04.:05:06.

account but now in charge of London's most important newspaper,

:05:07.:05:11.

Nick Clegg out today not saying Brexit was a done deal, waiting to

:05:12.:05:17.

see what happens, even John Major was wheeled out again today in the

:05:18.:05:21.

Mail on Sunday. They are all playing for position. I half expect David

:05:22.:05:24.

Cameron to turn up as features editor on The Evening Standard.

:05:25.:05:32.

Brexit and breakfast! With Mr Clegg, did he not? I do not think this is

:05:33.:05:36.

sustainable for George Osborne, I worked at The Evening Standard and I

:05:37.:05:40.

was there for three years, I know what the hours are like for a humble

:05:41.:05:44.

journalist, never mind the editor. If he thinks he can get at 4am

:05:45.:05:48.

everyday to be in the offices at 5am to oversee the splash, manage

:05:49.:05:52.

everything in the way and edited should he is in cloud cuckoo land.

:05:53.:05:57.

What this says to people is there is a kind of feel of soft corruption

:05:58.:06:01.

about public life here, where you see what you can get away with. He

:06:02.:06:05.

thinks he can brazen this out and maybe he can but what kind of

:06:06.:06:08.

message does that send to people about how seriously people take the

:06:09.:06:13.

role of being an MP? He must have known. He applied for the job. The

:06:14.:06:19.

Russian owner didn't approach him, he approached Lebedev, the

:06:20.:06:24.

proprietor, for it. He must have calculated there would be some

:06:25.:06:27.

kickback. I wonder if he realised there would be quite the kickback

:06:28.:06:32.

there has been. I think that's probably right. This hasn't finished

:06:33.:06:35.

yet, by the way, this will go on and on. How on earth does George Osborne

:06:36.:06:40.

cover the budget in the autumn? Big budget, lots of physical changes and

:06:41.:06:45.

tax rises to deal with the messages out of this week. You can see

:06:46.:06:49.

already, Theresa May budget crashes. It could be worse. She's useless!

:06:50.:06:57.

Or, worse than that, me, brilliant budget, terrible newspaper, I've

:06:58.:07:02.

never buying it again. He has hoisted his own petard. He has not

:07:03.:07:06.

bought it properly through. It's a something interesting about his own

:07:07.:07:11.

future calculations, if he wants to stay on as an MP in 2020 and be

:07:12.:07:16.

Prime Minister as he has or was wanted to be he has got to find a

:07:17.:07:19.

new seat. How do you go into an association and say I should be an

:07:20.:07:23.

MP, I can do it for at least four hours Purdy after editing The

:07:24.:07:28.

Evening Standard, making a big speech and telling Black Rock how to

:07:29.:07:34.

make a big profit. The feature pages have to be approved for the next day

:07:35.:07:39.

and feature pages are aware the editor gets to make their mark. The

:07:40.:07:42.

news is the news. The feature is what concerns you, what he is in

:07:43.:07:47.

your bonnet. That defines the newspaper, doesn't it? It is not

:07:48.:07:54.

over yet. Too much 101 on newspapers. And Haatheq at.

:07:55.:08:00.

School funding, the consultation period ends, it has been a tricky

:08:01.:08:07.

one for the government, some areas losing. I guess we are seeing this

:08:08.:08:12.

through the prism of the National Insurance contributions now, it is a

:08:13.:08:18.

small majority, if Tory MPs are unhappy she may not get her way.

:08:19.:08:23.

Talking to backbench MPs who are unhappy the feeling is it is not

:08:24.:08:27.

going to go ahead in the proposed form that the consultation has been

:08:28.:08:33.

on. No 10 will definitely have to move on this. It is unclear whether

:08:34.:08:37.

they will scrap it completely, or will they bring in something

:08:38.:08:40.

possibly like a base level, floor level pupil funding below which you

:08:41.:08:46.

can't go? You would then still need to find some extra money. So there

:08:47.:08:50.

are no easy solutions on this but what is clear it is not going to go

:08:51.:08:54.

ahead in its current form. Parents have been getting letters across the

:08:55.:08:57.

country in England about what this will mean for teachers and so on in

:08:58.:09:02.

certain schools. It's not just a matter of the education Department,

:09:03.:09:07.

the schools, or the teachers and Tory backbenchers. Parents are being

:09:08.:09:12.

mobilised on this. The point of the new funding formula is to allocate

:09:13.:09:15.

more money to the more disadvantaged. That means schools in

:09:16.:09:19.

the more prosperous suburbs are going to lose money. Budget cuts on

:09:20.:09:23.

schools which are already struggling. It comes down again to

:09:24.:09:27.

be huge problem, the ever smaller fiscal pool, ever greater demands,

:09:28.:09:32.

NHS, social care, education as well, adding to Theresa May and Phillip

:09:33.:09:36.

Hammond's enormous problems. Here is an interesting issue, Steve. There

:09:37.:09:41.

was a labour Leader of the Opposition that once suggested

:09:42.:09:46.

perhaps given these huge energy companies which seemed to be good at

:09:47.:09:50.

passing on energy rises but not so good at cutting energy prices when

:09:51.:09:53.

it falls, that perhaps we should put a cap on them until at least we

:09:54.:09:58.

study how the market goes. This was obviously ludicrous Marxism and

:09:59.:10:03.

quite rightly knocked down by the Conservatives, except that Mrs May

:10:04.:10:08.

is now talking about putting a cap on energy prices. Yes, I think if it

:10:09.:10:12.

wasn't for Brexit we would focus much more on Theresa May's Ed

:10:13.:10:16.

Miliband streak. Whether this translates into policies, let us

:10:17.:10:20.

see. That bit we don't know. That bit we don't know but in terms of

:10:21.:10:25.

argument her speech to the Conservative conference on Friday

:10:26.:10:28.

was about the third or fourth time where she said as part of the

:10:29.:10:34.

speech, let's focus on the good that government can do, including in

:10:35.:10:36.

intervening in markets, exactly in the way that he used to argue. As

:10:37.:10:42.

you say, we await the policy consequences of that. She seems more

:10:43.:10:46.

cautious in terms of policy in fermentation. But in terms of the

:10:47.:10:51.

industrial strategy, in terms of implying intervention in certain

:10:52.:10:53.

markets, there is a kind of Milibandesque streak. And there

:10:54.:10:58.

comes a time when she has to walk the walk as well as talk the talk.

:10:59.:11:04.

They talk a lot about the just about managing, just about managing face

:11:05.:11:08.

rising food bills because of the lower pound and face rising fuel

:11:09.:11:12.

bills because of the rise in oil and in other commodities. One of the two

:11:13.:11:19.

things you could do to help the just about managing is to cut their food

:11:20.:11:23.

bills and the second would be to cut their fuel bills. At some stage she

:11:24.:11:26.

has to do something for them. We don't know what is going to happen

:11:27.:11:30.

to food bills under Brexit, that could become a really serious issue.

:11:31.:11:34.

They could abolish tariffs. There has been a lot of talking the talk

:11:35.:11:38.

and big announcements put out and not following through so I agree

:11:39.:11:41.

with you on that but lots of Tory MPs will have a big problem on

:11:42.:11:55.

this and the principle of continually talking about

:11:56.:11:57.

interfering in markets, whether it's on executive pay, whether it is on

:11:58.:12:00.

energy, at a time when Britain needs to send out this message to the

:12:01.:12:03.

world in their view, in the view of Brexit supporting MPs, that we are

:12:04.:12:06.

open for business and the government is not about poking around and doing

:12:07.:12:08.

this kind of thing. Of course, you could argue there is not a problem

:12:09.:12:11.

in the market for energy, it is a malfunctioning market that doesn't

:12:12.:12:13.

operate like a free market should, so that provides even Adam Smith,

:12:14.:12:17.

the inventor of market economics would have said on that basis you

:12:18.:12:21.

should intervene. I was in Cardiff to listen to Theresa May's latest

:12:22.:12:24.

explanation for doing this. By the way, we've been waiting nine months,

:12:25.:12:29.

this was one of her big ideas. You are right, let's see a bit of the

:12:30.:12:33.

meat, please. My newspaper has been calling for some pretty hefty

:12:34.:12:37.

government action on this for quite some time. For the just about

:12:38.:12:42.

managings? Yes and specifically to sort out an energy market dominated

:12:43.:12:46.

by the big six, which is manifestly ripping people off left, right and

:12:47.:12:50.

centre. Theresa May's argument in Cardiff on Friday morning which, by

:12:51.:12:54.

the way, went down like a proverbial windbreak at the proverbial funeral

:12:55.:12:59.

because Tories... You know what I mean Andrew, the big hand coming

:13:00.:13:02.

into from the state telling businesses what to do. They went

:13:03.:13:06.

very quiet indeed. They were having saving the union and Nato but there

:13:07.:13:10.

was no clapping for that. The point being, this is what she needs to do

:13:11.:13:15.

to prove her assault, to prove those first words on the steps of Downing

:13:16.:13:20.

Street. We await to see the actions taken.

:13:21.:13:22.

On that unusual agreement we will leave it there. The Daily Politics

:13:23.:13:30.

will be back on BBC Two tomorrow at noon and everyday during the week.

:13:31.:13:32.

And I'll be here on BBC One next Sunday at 11am.

:13:33.:13:35.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:36.:14:19.

I've not given myself that time to sit down

:14:20.:14:25.

Two years ago, former England captain Rio Ferdinand lost his wife

:14:26.:14:29.

Andrew Neil and Stewart White with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

As the NHS in England warns of a severe financial crisis, Andrew talks to Chris Hopson, head of NHS Providers. He is also joined by former Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg MP and Labour Party campaign and elections chair Andrew Gwynne MP.

On the political panel are the Sun's Tom Newton Dunn and journalists Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.