12/02/2017 Sunday Politics London


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12/02/2017

Andrew Neil and Tim Donovan are joined by Baroness Smith and Oliver Letwin. The political panellists are Janan Ganesh, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Steve Richards.


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Commons Speaker John Bercow is accused of compromising his

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impartiality by revealing he voted Remain in last year's EU referendum.

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The EU Withdrawal Bill clears its first Parliamentary hurdle.

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But will the House of Lords be quite so accommodating?

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Labour's Leader in the Lords joins us live.

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And we report from Stoke-on-Trent ahead of a crucial by-election

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later this month, where Ukip is looking to give

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In London this week, as City Hall unveils initiatives

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to tackle air pollution, a clear example is being

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And with me a political panel who frequently like to compromise

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Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Janan Ganesh.

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I'll be trying to keep them in order during the course of the programme.

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So, Commons Speaker John Bercow has insisted his ability

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to act impartially is not damaged by reports that he voted to Remain

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The Sunday Telegraph reveals that Speaker Bercow revealed his views

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in front of an audience of students at Reading University

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This may not be popular with some people in this audience -

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I thought it was better to stay in the European Union than not,

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partly for economic reason, being part of a big trade bloc,

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and partly because I think we're in a world of power blocs,

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and I think for all the weaknesses and deficiencies

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of the European Union, it is better to be part of that big

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Speaker Bercow speaking at Reading University earlier this month. Does

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he not care is this I get that impression, he knows perfectly well,

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it states he has to be particularly -- Parliamentary neural. Whether

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there are going to be enough votes to force him out, the question, the

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last speaker wept out with the 20 vote against him. You yes to have

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the command of the support across the House. There is a Deputy

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Speaker, waiting, who would be superb. I think even the people who

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pretend to support Macis have had enough -- Speaker Bercow have had

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enough of his ways. The reason I ask whether he care, he didn't just tell

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the students that he voted to Remain, he then gave them a running

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commentary on all the issues that will be part of the Brexit

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negotiations, workers' rights, immigration, trade policy, everyone

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maternity leave got a hat tip from him. He would be a very well

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prepared Brexit minister if attendance needs a colleague --

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David Davis needs a colleague. I don't think this story makes his

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position untenable, what does is the wired pattern of behaviour of

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excessive candour on his political views, going back years, this is a

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guy who when the Queen visited Parliament described her as theical

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lied scope Queen. He had a running argument with David Cameron. We know

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his views on Brexit, we know his views on Donald Trump. . He has

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given interviews, none of the views are illegitimate but the candour

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which they are expressed with is scrupulous. Given Lyndsay Hoyle is a

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class accuse. He is the Deputy Speaker. And a fairly ready

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replacement, whether there is more of a movement to say, maybe not

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force Bercow out but acknowledge he has had a few years in the job and

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the question of successor ship comes into play. Has he concluded he is

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untouchable? What I can definitely say, is that he is determined to

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fight this one out, and not go of his own volition, so if he goes he

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will have to be forced out. He wants to stay. Which will be tough. It

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will be tough. Likely as things stand. I would say this, I speak to

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someone who likes the way he has brought the House of Commons to

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life, held ministers to account, forced them into explain thing,

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whenever there is a topical issue you know it will be in the House of

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Commons. He has changed that. He has. Time has been courageous, Ied a

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mire the way he has been a speaker. I would say this, during the

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referendum campaign, he asked me Nick Clegg, and Peter Hitchens to

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debate Brexit if his constituency. It was a packed out meeting. He

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chaired it. I said don't you want to join in? He didn't. He showed no

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desire to join in, he was impartial. He goes out to universities and kind

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of demyth GCSEs Parliament by speaking to them in a way, he

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doesn't gets credit for it and stays on after and drinks with them.

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Sometimes he, you know, it is clearly a mistake to have gone into

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his views retrospectively on that referendum campaign, I don't think

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that, did he try and stop Article 50 from being triggered in the House of

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Commons? That would be a scandal. Even that would be beyond him.

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Briefly, yes or no, could you imagine Betty Boothroyd behaving

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like that? Not at all. None of the recent speakers I could imagine

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doing that. It is good he is different.

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The bill that will allow the government to trigger Article 50

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and begin Brexit negotiations was voted through

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Many MPs were in a difficult position - unsure whether to vote

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with their conscience, their constituency,

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Europe, once such a divisive issue for the Conservatives,

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is now causing major divisions inside the Labour Party.

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So, let's have a look what happened in a bit more detail:

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Thanks to academic research carried out since the referendum,

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we now have estimates of how each individual constituency voted.

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It's thought that 410 constituencies voted Leave.

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On Wednesday night, the EU Notification of Withdrawal Bill

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was voted through by the House of Commons.

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The bill left the Labour Party divided.

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Jeremy Corbyn told his MPs to respect the result

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of the referendum and vote for the government's bill -

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But 52 Labour MPs defied Mr Corbyn's thee-line whip

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That's about a fifth of the Parliamentary Labour Party.

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Of those 52 Labour MPs who voted against the bill,

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the majority, 45 of them, represent seats that voted Remain.

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However, seven Labour MPs voted against the Article 50 Bill,

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even though their constituents voted Leave in the referendum.

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The Conservative Party were much more united.

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The vast majority of Tory MPs, 320 of them, voted for the bill.

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Just one Conservative MP, Ken Clarke, voted against it.

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His constituency, Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire, voted Remain.

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The bill will now go to the House of Lords -

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peers will start debating it on Monday the 20th of February.

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Joining me now is Matthew Goodwin, politics professor at

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He's got a book out next month called

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Brexit: Why Britain Voted To Leave The European Union.

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Welcome to the programme. Has Brexit, how you voted in the

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referendum and your continuing attitudes toward it, is that now

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becoming the new dividing line in British politics? I think it

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certainly is contributing to a new dividing line, in western politics

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more generally, we know over the last ten years, that the old left

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and right division has been making way for a new division, between

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essentially social liberals and Conservative, and Brexit was a, an

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incident a moment that really reflected that new dividing line, so

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it wasn't just the case that Brexit has cut across Labour's base, it is

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that dividing line, that deeper division is cutting across social

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democracies more generally. Is there a possibility, no higher than that,

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that it will reShane our party politics? I think it is too early to

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know whether this is a fundamental long-term realignment. If we look at

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what is happening in local by-election, what is happening at

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by-elections, pictures a bit mixed but if you look at how some of the

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Labour vote is responding, I think that potentially reflects the

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possibility of a terminal decline for the Labour Party, it is going to

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be incredibly difficult for Labour to win these voters back, these are

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traditional working class, socially Conservative voters who are leaving

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the party, don't forget, since the 1997 general election. It is not

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just because of the referendum. If that was the case, Labour would

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become more a party of the Metropolitan areas, and less of a

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party outside of these area, is that what you are saying? What we are S

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seeing across the west can social democracy that retrenchment into the

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cosmopolitan, Metropolitan city area, university towns, you can

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seeing in many European states populist right parties filling the

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traditional socialist area, why are they doing that? Because they are

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offering two message, economic and cultural protectionism. Social

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Democrats are clinging to that economic protectionism but not

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saying much about migration and multiculturalism and that sort of

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stuff. Are there deeper forces at work than Jeremy Corbyn? He often

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gets the blame for what is happening to the Labour Party now, but if you

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look the way the Greek socialist party has been wiped out. The German

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Social Democrats are in trouble. The Italian socialist party has lost a

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referendum. The French socialist are coming close to being wiped out on

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April 23rd, Labour's problems, are part of a much wider problem of

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social democracy S Jeremy Corbyn is a surface problem, what I mean by

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that is you could replace him tosh with another leader, they would

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still have this fundamental tension within the electorate. They are

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trying to appeal to two differenter reconcilable groups of voters who

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think differently about the key issues of the day. It is very

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difficult for any centre left party now to assemble the kinds of

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coalitionses we saw in the '90s with Clinton and Blair and Schroeder.

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Those days are gone. Does that explain why it is now Labour, rather

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than the Conservatives, historically the party divided over the European

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Union, does all of that help to explain why its Labour that now

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seems, disunited over the EU? I think so, I think also that the

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issue of Brexit, and the EU, is so immatly wrapped up with that issue

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of immigration, if you look at who has been abandoned Labour since 2015

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or the late 90s, the one thing those voters share is a rejection of the

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so-called liberal consensus on EU membership and mass immigration. It

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is difficult for any Labour lead eer co-bin or Clive Lewis on Dan Jarvis,

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to bring those voters back unless they are going to move on that

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cultural terrain. If they are not, they may not go to Ukip, they might

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go to somewhere more difficult for Labour which is political apathy.

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Thank you for that. Attention now shifts to the House

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of Lords where peers will begin scrutinising the EU Withdrawal Bill

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in just over a week. Brexit Secretary David Davis urged

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the Lords "to do its patriotic duty" and resist the urge to tinker

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with the legislation. Former minister Oliver Letwin

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went one further - mooting the possibility

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of the abolition of the Lords if it sought to frustrate

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the bill in any way. Here he is posing the question

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in the Commons on Thursday. Would he find time, in government

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time for a debate, should the other place seek to delay beyond the end

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of March the passage of our accession to Article 50, for this

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House to discuss the possibility of either the abolition or full-scale

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reform of the other place? And Oliver Letwin joins

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me now from Dorset. Welcome back to the programme Mr Let

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win. Before we come on to the Lord's, can I get your thoughts on a

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matter that has been making the news this morning and John Bercow's

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remarks about being a remain voter an giving something of a running

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commentary on various Brexit issues, has he sqloefr stepped the mark as

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speaker? -- overstepped the mark. I think this is slightly a fuss about

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nothing. Every person who thinks about politics will have had some

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opinion about great matters like Brexit, and I really don't see any

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particular reason why his opinion shouldn't be known after the fact.

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I, I was there throughout the five days of the Brexit debate, and I

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have to say, I thought he was pretty scrupulously fair in the way he

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handled the House, so, I, I don't really share the view that there is

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some terrible thing that has been revealed this weekend. Let me come

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on to what we are here to talk about, which is the Lords. Why have

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you raised the threat of the abolition of the Lord for doing its

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job of scrutinising what is coming out the Commons? Well, you know,

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Andrew, this question of the job of the House of Lords and scrutiny, has

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to be looked at carefully. There are all sorts of bills that come out the

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House of Commons which are detailed things that relate to, finance, and

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expenditure, and the criminal law, and all that sort of thing, and all

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of that, I admire the work that the House of Lords does, as you say

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scrutinising and we shouldn't use that word loosely, it means looking

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carefully at the detail, line by line of complicated legislation,

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hundreds of Paps in some cases, and spotting, using the considerable

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expertise many, not all be many of the peers have, in any given field,

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to identify things where the Commons has got it wrong in the sense that

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the legislation wouldn't achieve what the Government of the day is

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seeking to make it achieve. That is a serious proper role for an Upper

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House and the House of Lords performs it pretty

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Now this is a very different case. This is a two clause bill. The first

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clause which is the operative clause says the Prime Minister should go

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ahead and sign... I understand all that. We haven't got that much time,

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this is becoming a monologue. There is nothing to scrutinise, Andrew.

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There were plenty of amendments put before the Commons, none of them got

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through, it is true. There are eight Labour amendments in the Lords, are

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you resigned to this bill coming back to the Commons with amendments?

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No, it should not come back with amendments. There were hundreds of

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amendments literally put down in the House of Commons, they were all

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drunk. They were all trying one way or another to derail the process.

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This is a binary issue, should Theresa May sign the withdrawal or

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not? What should the Commons do? The Commons has now voted in favour of

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it. Node do should tolerate and unelected chamber forcing the

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British people... The people voted in a referendum and the Commons

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voted. The matter is now signed and sealed and should not be derailed by

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the House of Lords. On Labour amendment wants confirmation that

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when it is done, the potential Brexit agreement will be put before

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parliament before any vote in the European Parliament, that has been

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an agreed principle, what is wrong with that amendments? The government

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has already agreed there will be a vote, but actually, what the

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amendments were seeking was to give the Commons a further vote on

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whether we actually leave or not. That is already decided. Neither the

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House of Lords nor anybody else has a right in my view, despite the fact

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I was a remain, to what the will of the British people. Nobody should

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think an unelected chamber should now try to change the course of

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British history by asserting amendments in a very effective on

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clause bill which says go ahead and trigger Article 50. Are you

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concerned that amendments by the Lords which would then have to go

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back to the Commons for consideration, are you concerned

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that could derail or delay the Prime Minister's timetable for Article 50?

:18:41.:18:45.

Yes, exactly. That would be the result of a prolonged bout of

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ping-pong between the two houses, or much worse, if the House of Lords

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failed to give way and the Parliament act had to be used. It

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would really be intolerable. It is not good for our country. Those of

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us who voted remain would prefer for that not to happen. The whole

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country -- it is important for the whole country that this happens in a

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rapid way and allowing the government free rein to negotiate,

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that is surely in all our advantages? Deed think any efforts

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to abolish the House of Lords, an issue you have raised, does that

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make it easier because your friend David Cameron stuffed the upper

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chamber with donors, lapdogs and lingerie designers? I was among

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those who advocated for many years wholesale reform of the House of

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Lords, to turn it into a serious elected second chamber. I think we

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should have an upper house which commands legitimacy. This is a

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second issue. Here we have not got such a House and it seems to be very

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clear that it should not seek to derail on delay the action which has

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been mandated by the referendum, agreed by the House of Commons, and

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what we want to see now is a smooth orderly effect for this bill, so it

:20:05.:20:09.

becomes law and Theresa May can go ahead and negotiate on our behalf.

:20:10.:20:15.

One more question on the process, if the Lords to amend the bill and it

:20:16.:20:18.

goes back to the Commons and the Commons sends these amendments back

:20:19.:20:24.

again, take them out, how long could this ping-pong between the two

:20:25.:20:31.

chambers go on in your experience? It is a very, very interesting and

:20:32.:20:35.

complicated question with the clerks of the two ends of the Palace of

:20:36.:20:39.

Westminster not always agreeing about this. But through certain

:20:40.:20:45.

machinations of slightly changing amendments as they go, in my

:20:46.:20:48.

experience this could carry on for an awful long time if clever people,

:20:49.:20:52.

and there are plenty of clever people in the House of Lords, want

:20:53.:20:55.

to do that and that is precisely why I think we should not tolerate it.

:20:56.:20:59.

Oliver Letwin, thank you for joining us from Dorset.

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Joining me now is Labour's Leader in the House of Lords, Angela Smith.

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The Commons passed this bill without any amendments... There were

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changes, the government did concede a couple of points. But the

:21:14.:21:18.

amendments did not go through. Does that put pressure on the Lords to do

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the same? I think the Lords always feels under pressure to do the right

:21:24.:21:27.

thing. When I heard Oliver Letwin, I did not know whether to laugh or

:21:28.:21:33.

cry. We will not frustrate, we will not wreck, we will not sabotage. We

:21:34.:21:39.

will do what David Davis said was our patriotic duty. We will

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scrutinise the bill. We have at amendments from the Labour Party. We

:21:44.:21:46.

will look at those. It depends on the government response if we vote

:21:47.:21:50.

on those. There could be amendments asking the Commons to look again.

:21:51.:21:54.

That is normally what we do. It is not the wrong thing to do. But if

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you do this and make amendments, it then goes back to the Commons. If

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the Commons rejects the Lords' amendments, what do you think will

:22:05.:22:08.

happen? I do not see any extended ping-pong at all. It is perfectly

:22:09.:22:14.

legitimate. We are not talking about the outcome of negotiations, we are

:22:15.:22:19.

talking about the process. The process of engaging with Parliament

:22:20.:22:22.

and reporting to Parliament. It would be totally responsible for

:22:23.:22:25.

Parliament to say, off you go, Theresa May, have two years of

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negotiation and come back and talk to us at the end. The has to be a

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process where the government can use the expertise of parliament to get

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this right. But if you do put in some amendments, it has to go back

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to the Commons, they may well say they don't want those amendments and

:22:44.:22:46.

it may go back to the Lords, could that at the very least delay the

:22:47.:22:51.

Prime Minister's Brexit timetable? I don't think so. She said the end of

:22:52.:22:56.

March. Time has been built in for all the normal processes. I think

:22:57.:23:00.

Oliver Letwin and others are getting a bit overexcited. This is the

:23:01.:23:04.

normal process. Unless the government get things right the

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first time every time, the has to be this kind of process. These are

:23:09.:23:12.

reasonable amendments. This is a Labour amendment we are talking

:23:13.:23:16.

about here, you want a vote in the UK Parliament before any

:23:17.:23:30.

vote in the European Parliament if and when the Brexit deal is done,

:23:31.:23:34.

the Commons and the Lords get to vote on it first. But the government

:23:35.:23:37.

I think have already agreed to that so what is the point? It needs to be

:23:38.:23:40.

on the face of the bill. It is over well if the government have agreed

:23:41.:23:43.

it. Lord dubs had an agreement about child and look what happened to

:23:44.:23:47.

that. Does not sound as if you would go to the wire on that? It is

:23:48.:23:52.

important it is not just about the vote at the end, you have the

:23:53.:23:57.

ongoing engagement. If it is going to be a bad deal, we need to know

:23:58.:24:03.

long before we get to that stage? Is it something you would hold out for?

:24:04.:24:08.

I don't know yet. It is about how the House of Lords votes, Labour do

:24:09.:24:13.

not have a majority, we never had a majority in the House of Lords when

:24:14.:24:16.

we were in government. It is wrong to suggest that we cannot debate

:24:17.:24:22.

these issues... I don't think anyone is suggesting that. They are. It is

:24:23.:24:28.

not unfair to ask the government to ask the House of Commons to look

:24:29.:24:31.

again to look at those issues if that is what the House of Lords

:24:32.:24:35.

decides. Bit of the House of Commons says we looked, we are sticking with

:24:36.:24:40.

what we voted for, we rejected every amendment by at least 30 votes on

:24:41.:24:45.

all occasions, the Lords then have to buckle, is that what you are

:24:46.:24:49.

saying? Some point I think it is clear the House of Commons have to

:24:50.:24:53.

have its say. I think it is inconceivable that having had a

:24:54.:24:57.

referendum, which was not overwhelming, but it was a clear

:24:58.:25:02.

result, the House of Lords has no intention of sabotaging that but

:25:03.:25:05.

there are things which are not good about the process that we think

:25:06.:25:09.

could be improved. We have not just have the result of the referendum

:25:10.:25:13.

which voted to leave, but we have had the will of the Commons that

:25:14.:25:19.

passed this legislation by a majority of 372. And I am not

:25:20.:25:25.

contesting that for a second! Could you cite a precedent for the upper

:25:26.:25:30.

house amending a bill which passed by 372 votes in the Commons? Quite

:25:31.:25:34.

other things will come to the House of Lords with big majorities from

:25:35.:25:37.

the Commons and quite often the amendments we get, with that then

:25:38.:25:42.

forward and the government sees it could do better. Though not

:25:43.:25:47.

necessarily saying the government has got things wrong, but they could

:25:48.:25:50.

do things better. That happens time and time again and it is not

:25:51.:25:56.

unusual. If you were seen to thwart the referendum result and the vote

:25:57.:26:01.

in the Commons, the elected chamber of parliament, is the threat of

:26:02.:26:05.

abolition hanging over you? I think that is really ridiculous and

:26:06.:26:09.

absolute nonsense. We are not tying to what the decision of the House of

:26:10.:26:12.

Commons, we are trying to do better. It is a bit rich of the government

:26:13.:26:16.

and Oliver Letwin to complain about getting things through in time when

:26:17.:26:21.

the House of Commons spent -- the government spent three months trying

:26:22.:26:26.

to debate this issue. There have been some strong questions put to

:26:27.:26:29.

the government from the House of Lords on all sides. I don't know if

:26:30.:26:32.

the amendments have been passed or not. I think we have a good case for

:26:33.:26:41.

the government to get debate the point. If a traditional MP like

:26:42.:26:49.

Oliver Letwin is calling for the abolition of the hereditary and

:26:50.:26:52.

appointed chamber, and the Labour person like yourself was trying to

:26:53.:26:56.

defend that, that would not be a sustainable position, I would

:26:57.:27:02.

suggest! We saw this with the Strathclyde report as well, this is

:27:03.:27:04.

a government like no other. It is the first Conservative government in

:27:05.:27:07.

history not to have an automatic majority. They do not like challenge

:27:08.:27:12.

or scrutiny. But you get my point, Labour cannot go to the wire in

:27:13.:27:18.

defending and an elected second chamber, can it? Actually, Labour

:27:19.:27:21.

can go to the wire in saying the government does not get it right

:27:22.:27:24.

every time. House of Lords is going to normal processes and people like

:27:25.:27:31.

Oliver Letwin are really getting a little bit over excited, and people

:27:32.:27:35.

who have been anonymously briefing. Who has been anonymously briefing? I

:27:36.:27:42.

don't know, they are anonymous! I understand people want to make

:27:43.:27:45.

amendments, that is the role of the House of Lords, but can I just for

:27:46.:27:49.

the avoidance of doubt, is it still your case that whatever amendments

:27:50.:27:52.

to make, whatever may go back and forward, it is not your intention to

:27:53.:27:58.

stop Article 50 being triggered by the end of March? I have been saying

:27:59.:28:03.

that, exactly that for months and months and months. It is

:28:04.:28:07.

inconceivable that an unelected House will thwart the will of the

:28:08.:28:10.

House of Commons and a referendum on this issue. But that does not mean

:28:11.:28:14.

we will be bullied by Oliver Letwin and others. But the triggering will

:28:15.:28:19.

happen by the end of March? I very much suspect so unless Theresa May

:28:20.:28:24.

has second thoughts, I suspect that will happen. Thank you.

:28:25.:28:27.

Now, just because it's parliamentary recess next week

:28:28.:28:29.

There are two by-elections round the corner -

:28:30.:28:33.

one in Copeland, and another in Stoke-on-Trent Central

:28:34.:28:35.

where the former Shadow Education Secretary,

:28:36.:28:37.

Tristram Hunt, vacated his seat to take up a role

:28:38.:28:39.

as Director of the Victoria Albert Museum in London.

:28:40.:28:42.

But Labour are facing a fight to hold onto the constituency

:28:43.:28:45.

Seconds away, Ukip's new leader has stepped into the ring

:28:46.:28:51.

as their candidate in a by-election bout to see

:28:52.:28:53.

At the last election Ukip came second to Labour here

:28:54.:29:00.

But now they are confident they can land a knockout blow,

:29:01.:29:05.

because this place is packed with people that voted to leave the EU.

:29:06.:29:12.

70% of people voted to leave the European Union.

:29:13.:29:15.

I'm the only candidate standing in this election

:29:16.:29:23.

who is a true Brexiteer, who has always campaigned to leave

:29:24.:29:25.

the EU and therefore I believe I would be the best person

:29:26.:29:28.

But he has had to fight off allegations

:29:29.:29:31.

he wasn't living in the constituency when he entered the contest.

:29:32.:29:34.

Explain to me what is going on with this issue about your house?

:29:35.:29:37.

Well, we took up the lease the day before nominations.

:29:38.:29:39.

Everything we've done is perfectly legal and within the law.

:29:40.:29:42.

The Labour Party are trying to get off the real issues in this election

:29:43.:29:47.

and focus on something which is banal nonsense.

:29:48.:29:54.

And there's been trouble as well for the Labour contender.

:29:55.:30:00.

He's been labelled a Remoaner after he sent a series

:30:01.:30:02.

of anti-Brexit tweets, filled with words

:30:03.:30:05.

I can't believe I'm about to ask this question in a nursery

:30:06.:30:15.

on a Sunday morning TV programme, but did you really tweet that

:30:16.:30:18.

I tweeted many things about Brexit, that's tweet is out there.

:30:19.:30:23.

It was done quite after the referendum result and it

:30:24.:30:26.

was my way of showing my frustration at the fact that months

:30:27.:30:29.

after the result we hadn't had anything from the government.

:30:30.:30:34.

Theresa May had failed to produce any plan,

:30:35.:30:36.

she had failed to give any meaningful statement

:30:37.:30:38.

about what Brexit meant other than bland statements

:30:39.:30:40.

about Brexit is Brexit, and it's a hard Brexit, or a soft Brexit.

:30:41.:30:43.

The context of it was it was out of frustration.

:30:44.:30:47.

So you didn't mean to insult the 70% of the people who live here

:30:48.:30:50.

I never mean to insult anybody and you know,

:30:51.:30:53.

I've made it quite clear, if I'm elected as the member

:30:54.:30:56.

of Parliament for Stoke-on-Trent Central, I will absolutely respect

:30:57.:30:58.

the wishes of the people of Stoke Central.

:30:59.:31:00.

I will make sure my vote in parliament is to trigger Article 50.

:31:01.:31:04.

While the Tories' man has done little bit of rebranding too.

:31:05.:31:07.

I voted Remain and I've been open about that, but my top priority

:31:08.:31:10.

is about the economy and to ensure we still have an

:31:11.:31:12.

Theresa May has set out clear proposal to ensure we develop

:31:13.:31:16.

a trade relationship with Europe and make that a success.

:31:17.:31:26.

It means the Lib Dems and the Greens are the ones battling Brexit.

:31:27.:31:29.

Well, when the Lib Dem candidate is actually here.

:31:30.:31:31.

The candidate is a consultant cardiologist.

:31:32.:31:37.

He is actually at work today doing very important heart surgery.

:31:38.:31:40.

He will be back tomorrow, back on the campaign trail working hard.

:31:41.:31:43.

30% of people voted to Remain and nobody else

:31:44.:31:47.

is representing them, so, you know, it is still a live issue.

:31:48.:31:51.

It is still something people care about.

:31:52.:31:52.

We are only at the start of the Article 50 process

:31:53.:31:55.

We are very a clear that we are standing up for those

:31:56.:32:00.

who want to remain in the single market, who want to protect jobs

:32:01.:32:03.

Labour have taken people for granted in this area for a great many years.

:32:04.:32:08.

Ukip, I'm afraid, all Ukip can offer to politics is division.

:32:09.:32:10.

I've covered a lot of by-elections where Ukip have come second.

:32:11.:32:13.

We'll find out if they really got Labour on the ropes this

:32:14.:32:16.

And here is a full list of all the candidates standing

:32:17.:32:36.

in the Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election.

:32:37.:32:47.

They do atract lots of candidates. You can get that on the BBC website

:32:48.:32:56.

as well. I was trying to think back, here we have the main opposition

:32:57.:33:04.

party defending two seats in by-elections in the midterm of a

:33:05.:33:05.

government. All the speculation is where the

:33:06.:33:13.

opposition party can hold on, that is unprecedented. I can't give of an

:33:14.:33:18.

equivalent. You wouldn't just expect them to win seats they have held

:33:19.:33:23.

traditionally, you would expect hem to make inroads into seats held by

:33:24.:33:29.

the other party, I wonder if they fail to hold on to just one of

:33:30.:33:33.

these, whether it accelerates the momentum and criticism of the

:33:34.:33:39.

leadership of the moment. I think they are interesting constituencies.

:33:40.:33:43.

Matthew good win was talking about the left win coalition over the

:33:44.:33:48.

years, almost being too broad for its own good, including places like

:33:49.:33:56.

Primrose Hill and Hackney. Big university towns in Manchester,

:33:57.:34:00.

Bristol. Diverse ethnically and included places like Stoke which are

:34:01.:34:10.

more Conservative. With a small c. Less economically well-off, more

:34:11.:34:15.

diverse, can the left hang on to both bits of country. Recent

:34:16.:34:18.

evidence suggests it cannot and the opportunity for Ukip is to pick up

:34:19.:34:22.

the second of those two types of community, the Stokes and the cope

:34:23.:34:26.

lands. That what makes the by-elections interest I would

:34:27.:34:30.

suggest. It is not just about Mr Corbyn's future about which we hear

:34:31.:34:35.

too much, it is about this traditional Labour coalition, can it

:34:36.:34:39.

still survive, particularly in places like Stoke? Europe clearly is

:34:40.:34:43.

a test. I think it's a myth by the way that Labour are only split now,

:34:44.:34:50.

over Europe and it has always been a Tory problem, last time I was on I

:34:51.:34:55.

mentioned it. That is why we had a referendum in 75. That is why they

:34:56.:35:02.

had a round then. But they were in chaos behind the scenes over what

:35:03.:35:07.

they thought about the euro, skillful leadership can paper over

:35:08.:35:11.

the cracks, and to address the wider issue of whether we are now in an

:35:12.:35:16.

era where left right issues have disappeared, and there is more of a

:35:17.:35:20.

regional divide, if you take Europe out of the equation which you can't,

:35:21.:35:28.

but if you were able to, issues about health, transport housing do

:35:29.:35:31.

split more left-right than a regional divide, so I think there is

:35:32.:35:37.

still fundamental left-right issues, but Europe isn't one of them and

:35:38.:35:42.

Europe has to be managed by a Labour leader skill fully and evidently

:35:43.:35:46.

that hasn't happened now. How would you see the by-elections in the

:35:47.:35:51.

current political context? Labour should be walking them, it should be

:35:52.:35:55.

a sign of the March of the Labour Party taking on the current

:35:56.:35:57.

Conservative Government. I don't think they raise any questions about

:35:58.:36:01.

Corbyn's leadership because the people who put him in don't think

:36:02.:36:05.

that winning elections matter, you have to remember this will be the

:36:06.:36:10.

mainstream media, it will be our fault why any of those Labour

:36:11.:36:14.

candidates don't win, the thing that is interesting is whether there is

:36:15.:36:18.

is a role for Ukip. The argument after the referendum was Ukip has

:36:19.:36:22.

done its job, it got the referendum, nothing to see here, I remember

:36:23.:36:28.

speaking to put a Nuttall before he was Ukip leader, on the day after

:36:29.:36:34.

the battle and he said this is Year Zero, where Ukip starts now, and

:36:35.:36:38.

this, and this is the interesting thing, does, do we see this one

:36:39.:36:42.

particular party having a role in the future? And I think it is all to

:36:43.:36:46.

play for, they could not not have stood in this seat. They have to win

:36:47.:36:51.

it to be an electoral force. The Labour candidate in Copeland has

:36:52.:36:54.

made the NHS the issue for her in this, that goes into the left-right,

:36:55.:36:58.

are we spending enough, are we not? That will be a test of what you were

:36:59.:37:04.

saying to see if traditional left-right issue, which at the

:37:05.:37:07.

moment would play Labour's way I would suggest, are big enough to

:37:08.:37:11.

overcome all the things you have been talking about and Matthew has

:37:12.:37:15.

been talking about. Maybe at this particular junction they are not,

:37:16.:37:19.

but I don't think any of those issues will go away, and that is why

:37:20.:37:25.

I question whether we are see the end of a historic left-right divide.

:37:26.:37:31.

At the moment with Europe so prominent, clearly these

:37:32.:37:34.

by-elections are unusual. And they will be a test of leadership for

:37:35.:37:38.

Theresa May in the coming months if not at the moment, as they have been

:37:39.:37:41.

in a way that he hasn't risen to, for the Labour leader.

:37:42.:37:46.

We will be leave on BBC One on the night, February 23rd off back of

:37:47.:37:50.

this week, we will bring you the result of both these crucial

:37:51.:37:52.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:53.:37:56.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:37:57.:37:59.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:38:00.:38:02.

First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:38:03.:38:14.

This week, two of the most pressing issues currently facing the capital.

:38:15.:38:19.

Fist, that acute shortage of housing, then a little

:38:20.:38:21.

As the mayor begins to set out a number of initiatives to tackle

:38:22.:38:26.

it, we look at what lessons can be learned from Paris.

:38:27.:38:31.

Here with us this week, Paul Scully, Conservative MP

:38:32.:38:34.

for Sutton and Cheam, and Dawn Butler, Labour

:38:35.:38:36.

I just want to ask them one thing quickly about this

:38:37.:38:45.

issue of social care, which is rising rapidly up

:38:46.:38:47.

If Surrey County Council were prepared, Paul,

:38:48.:38:51.

to withdraw their threat of 15% council tax rise for social care,

:38:52.:38:55.

there must have been something they were offered by Government.

:38:56.:38:57.

Are you going to be asking for something similar?

:38:58.:39:00.

It's interesting that, you know, Surrey County Council,

:39:01.:39:02.

they put up the 15% to a referendum, which from what I was hearing

:39:03.:39:09.

they were clearly going to lose, and they can approach the Government

:39:10.:39:12.

to at least acknowledge the fact it's a problem,

:39:13.:39:14.

which they've done - cute lobbying frankly.

:39:15.:39:16.

But what we have done in Sutton, our local council has just

:39:17.:39:20.

passed a motion to say, well, we're not going to ask for any

:39:21.:39:24.

more money, we're not going to change anything but we're

:39:25.:39:27.

going to get our MPs to write a letter, which we've

:39:28.:39:29.

already done any way, because we do want to be involved

:39:30.:39:32.

in that conversation, because adult social care

:39:33.:39:34.

is a hugely important issue to tackle.

:39:35.:39:35.

Well, Brent wants Nick's number, so we can all get

:39:36.:39:41.

To be fair, people could always vote Conservative next year.

:39:42.:39:47.

Having a sweetheart deal isn't good enough.

:39:48.:39:51.

Having numbers you can say, well, actually you don't have do

:39:52.:39:54.

the referendum because we're going to sort it out.

:39:55.:39:57.

Liverpool next door, tried to get a meeting

:39:58.:40:00.

with the Government, at least four times, possibly more.

:40:01.:40:02.

Liverpool tried to get a deal and they weren't

:40:03.:40:11.

I would love to have a deal in Brent, we are short,

:40:12.:40:16.

There is no sweetheart deal, but David Hodge has been

:40:17.:40:20.

a senior person in the LGA, he knows how local Government works

:40:21.:40:23.

and he will be making approaches all council leaders should

:40:24.:40:25.

It may be I reckon many people are saying we won't see

:40:26.:40:31.

the signs this year, but may be in subsequent years

:40:32.:40:34.

we have to remember this and look and see what the settlements

:40:35.:40:36.

are in future years, but we must move on.

:40:37.:40:39.

In the Government's housing White Paper this week

:40:40.:40:41.

were some potential remedies, no building to rent,

:40:42.:40:49.

more pressure on developers and planners to get construction

:40:50.:40:51.

moving faster, encouraging greater density in housing

:40:52.:40:53.

We'll explore how far this could address the acute shortage

:40:54.:40:57.

in the capital in just a moment, after this.

:40:58.:40:59.

The housing market is broken, because we haven't

:41:00.:41:02.

So says the Government's new housing White Paper.

:41:03.:41:05.

It announces a raft of new policies to get more houses built.

:41:06.:41:09.

All councils will be pressured to release more land

:41:10.:41:14.

The Government says many councils haven't come up with adequate plans

:41:15.:41:19.

Pointing to London as one of the least dense cities in western

:41:20.:41:27.

Europe, new planning regulations will encourage developers

:41:28.:41:30.

to pack in more homes, and also to deter low-density

:41:31.:41:33.

housing, Londoners on incomes below ?90,000 will be entitled to buy

:41:34.:41:39.

new starter homes at a discount of 20%, up to the value

:41:40.:41:42.

There is also a particular emphasis on renters,

:41:43.:41:45.

with letting agent fees to be banned.

:41:46.:41:46.

The Government says housing policy shouldn't just be about those

:41:47.:41:49.

We have to accept there are some people who won't be able

:41:50.:41:54.

to own and others who will in time, but they will have

:41:55.:41:58.

If as a government you want to have something to say to everybody,

:41:59.:42:06.

you have got to have policies that both help people that want to own,

:42:07.:42:09.

but also help people that are having to rent.

:42:10.:42:11.

The housing market may well be broken, will these measures

:42:12.:42:13.

Well, let's talk about that with James Murray,

:42:14.:42:16.

deputy mayor for housing, and Campbell Robb, chief executive

:42:17.:42:19.

What did you get from this White Paper, what did

:42:20.:42:25.

It certainly signified a very big shift in Government thinking,

:42:26.:42:30.

about where housing policy should go.

:42:31.:42:31.

And that is very welcome in the sense that finally,

:42:32.:42:35.

policy might start to catch up with the reality of many people's

:42:36.:42:38.

lives who are living in the private rented sector.

:42:39.:42:40.

For too long, successive Governments have focussed entirely on policy

:42:41.:42:43.

That has become just a pipe dream for so many people,

:42:44.:42:51.

particularly in London, so that is a good and welcome shift.

:42:52.:42:54.

I think we would like to see a lot more how that is going to happen,

:42:55.:42:58.

how that is going to be affordable, what type of rented homes

:42:59.:43:00.

are going to be built and how they will make that happen.

:43:01.:43:03.

In terms of a shift of view, I think that is a welcome start.

:43:04.:43:07.

Always, I'm afraid, and that's about the poorest in society.

:43:08.:43:12.

40% of the poorest Londoners live in the private rented sector

:43:13.:43:14.

and this immediately won't make that much difference to their lives.

:43:15.:43:17.

It's how we really begin to see those people who are really not just

:43:18.:43:20.

managing, slipping into some very difficult circumstances -

:43:21.:43:22.

rent is one of the biggest things that affects them and we need

:43:23.:43:25.

to really get this motoring and get councils and the mayor

:43:26.:43:28.

really working together, because otherwise, with food

:43:29.:43:32.

and prices going up, and wages may or may not go up,

:43:33.:43:37.

we will see a lot of people tipping into more trouble,

:43:38.:43:41.

and that's what this housing bill needs to begin to tackle.

:43:42.:43:43.

Why wasn't it saying, this White Paper, why wasn't it

:43:44.:43:46.

We have seen the emphasis on affordability, though.

:43:47.:43:49.

It is, and I think the challenge is back to politicians

:43:50.:43:53.

round the table to make a case for how all of you really begin

:43:54.:43:56.

to think about some of the poorest constituents in your area.

:43:57.:43:59.

So you are not going to benefit at this stage from the terrible

:44:00.:44:02.

rents that they paying, and the landlords.

:44:03.:44:04.

The Government has done other things to make the conditions better,

:44:05.:44:06.

but I really believe if we don't really begin to look at some

:44:07.:44:09.

of the work they are doing in London on living rents and those

:44:10.:44:12.

We need to begin to control the cost, but we also need

:44:13.:44:16.

to look at the other side, we need to make sure people

:44:17.:44:19.

are getting a decent wage, that the cost of other goods doesn't

:44:20.:44:22.

So it's a whole lot of things we need to see.

:44:23.:44:26.

So James Murray, as you start to feel your way with the mayor,

:44:27.:44:29.

to coming up with a strategy that deals with London going forward,

:44:30.:44:32.

what did this change for you, or what is different for you now,

:44:33.:44:35.

I think we welcome the White Paper, you know, it shows us pointing

:44:36.:44:39.

It shows the direction we are moving in now recognises that we need

:44:40.:44:46.

different sorts of homes for different people, in London,

:44:47.:44:48.

and I think what Londoners have seen is the benefit of having a mayor

:44:49.:44:52.

and his team at City Hall, who work closely with Government,

:44:53.:44:54.

Are you saying that because of its focus on rent?

:44:55.:44:58.

You think there is a clear shift to the rent?

:44:59.:45:01.

I think there is a lot of different shifts.

:45:02.:45:03.

There is a lot of practical measures in the bill,

:45:04.:45:05.

in the White Paper which show a slightly different emphasis,

:45:06.:45:08.

and we are pointing in a better direction.

:45:09.:45:10.

The proposals there which we can discuss

:45:11.:45:11.

It was encouraging for us to hear Gavin Barwell say,

:45:12.:45:15.

on the day the White Paper came out, that he is looking to do a bespoke

:45:16.:45:19.

deal with us about greater devolution to London over housing

:45:20.:45:22.

power, which means it gives us the opportunity to make sure

:45:23.:45:24.

we have the tools we need in London to build the homes

:45:25.:45:27.

Dawn Butler, as a Labour MP in somewhere like Brent,

:45:28.:45:32.

I don't feel that confidence because this Government has made

:45:33.:45:35.

so many announcements around housing, you know, over 1,000

:45:36.:45:37.

announcement since 2010 around housing, yet still nothing

:45:38.:45:40.

I agree the White Paper kind of signifies it is going

:45:41.:45:45.

in the right direction, but ultimately, you know,

:45:46.:45:48.

we need to build more homes, but they have

:45:49.:45:50.

In Brent, houses are going for ?720,000.

:45:51.:45:58.

130% more than the average wage, so what we need is more affordable

:45:59.:46:02.

homes, they need to be built and we need more social housing.

:46:03.:46:06.

This Government's ideologically committed to not building social

:46:07.:46:10.

housing and trying to move everybody out and away from their families

:46:11.:46:15.

and from the areas of work, like doctors and nurses

:46:16.:46:18.

Two points, because it is Campbell's as well, there is a shift perhaps

:46:19.:46:25.

away from ownership, and do you welcome that,

:46:26.:46:27.

or are you absolutely wedded to the old Thatcherite

:46:28.:46:29.

But also it is still not addressing right down at the bottom end

:46:30.:46:35.

of the market that social, what affordable rents means

:46:36.:46:37.

now is something pretty close to market rent.

:46:38.:46:39.

I think in terms of the first question, I think Campbell was right

:46:40.:46:42.

when he said this is a very rounded White Paper, looking at a range of,

:46:43.:46:47.

I think this links in with the need for different types of private

:46:48.:46:54.

solutions, in terms of intermediate housing, shared living,

:46:55.:46:57.

and these kind of projects that are already happening,

:46:58.:47:00.

But one thing that really stuck out, if you are talking

:47:01.:47:05.

about a lot of affordability, whether it is ownership or rent,

:47:06.:47:08.

ultimately the starting point is about building more houses,

:47:09.:47:11.

and the thing that stuck out in the White Paper for me,

:47:12.:47:14.

as a former councillor, was the ability for local councils

:47:15.:47:17.

to push developers to use the planning permission

:47:18.:47:20.

I haven't been a councillor for seven years, but there's

:47:21.:47:24.

still developments that I was on the committee giving

:47:25.:47:26.

planning permission for that are still sitting on a bit of paper.

:47:27.:47:29.

You are happy this White Paper, signals it is going to be more

:47:30.:47:32.

affordable housing for the people of your area?

:47:33.:47:34.

If you look at the completions that have happened over

:47:35.:47:39.

the last year under Boris, not the planning permission

:47:40.:47:41.

by the completion, there are already a significant amount of those,

:47:42.:47:43.

There were supposed to be 200,000 new houses built.

:47:44.:47:49.

As I say, 38% of actual completion, but we absolutely need more,

:47:50.:47:53.

and I think this is the start of a conversation.

:47:54.:47:56.

That is the point about a White Paper, it is not a policy,

:47:57.:47:59.

it's a conversation, it's consultation now

:48:00.:48:01.

we need to get stuck into, make it not just a bit of paper,

:48:02.:48:04.

I want to ask James Murray, what does this mean in terms

:48:05.:48:11.

of you shifting how much or the kind of housing you will be providing

:48:12.:48:14.

here, how much are you going to go for in terms of ownership,

:48:15.:48:17.

how much is going to be London living rent, a third

:48:18.:48:20.

If you look at the deal which we did with Government last November

:48:21.:48:26.

in the Autumn Statement, where we secured ?33.15 billion,

:48:27.:48:29.

A record for a Conservative Government.

:48:30.:48:34.

Yes, and I think that shows you know, Londoners

:48:35.:48:36.

have seen the benefit of when you have the mayor

:48:37.:48:39.

and his team in City Hall working with Government to try and get

:48:40.:48:42.

Or a Conservative Government that realises there is a problem

:48:43.:48:45.

and spends that money, whoever is in City Hall.

:48:46.:48:47.

The truth is everyone in London knows there

:48:48.:48:49.

is a housing crisis, and you know, as we are working

:48:50.:48:52.

One simple question now, say you have your affordable housing,

:48:53.:48:55.

you have promised it is going to be, half of all the new housing

:48:56.:48:59.

you build is affordable, of that affordable chunk,

:49:00.:49:01.

how much will be a third of average wages in the area?

:49:02.:49:04.

What we set out clearly on the 90,000 homes,

:49:05.:49:08.

I can give you a precise answer on that one.

:49:09.:49:11.

So the 90,000 homes we agreed with Government, putting

:49:12.:49:13.

?3.15 billion towards that, around two thirds of them

:49:14.:49:15.

are going to be for shared ownership or London living rent,

:49:16.:49:18.

and the other third will be affordable homes to rent.

:49:19.:49:20.

So how much will be the London living rent, that element?

:49:21.:49:23.

That will be within the two thirds, so the 60,000.

:49:24.:49:26.

How much of it, because that is key one that

:49:27.:49:28.

How much are you going to be helping them?

:49:29.:49:31.

The ones that will help people on the lowest incomes

:49:32.:49:34.

So those which are affordable rent or social rent,

:49:35.:49:37.

those are the ones that are helping people on the lowest incomes,

:49:38.:49:40.

which is a question that has been brought up today.

:49:41.:49:43.

I am nodding in the hope that everyone around this

:49:44.:49:46.

table recognises that, and I hope it's a genuinely

:49:47.:49:48.

consultation, because I think there is still a gap within this

:49:49.:49:51.

White Paper about what happens to the poorest people in society,

:49:52.:49:54.

going forward or right now, in terms of what they can

:49:55.:49:56.

afford to rent and what they can afford to buy.

:49:57.:49:59.

And I really think that we hope and we have lots of solutions

:50:00.:50:02.

and proposals we will bring to Government, for London as well,

:50:03.:50:04.

particularly because we have to recognise it is harder in London,

:50:05.:50:07.

it is tougher, there is more need, but I think this is a really good

:50:08.:50:11.

opportunity for everyone to sit down and say come on, let's put ideology

:50:12.:50:14.

away from this and get on with getting some proper housing

:50:15.:50:16.

Can I ask one thing, check one last thing,

:50:17.:50:20.

do you agree and do you accept this is a shift away from ownership,

:50:21.:50:23.

and thus we've been a little bit preoccupied with ownership,

:50:24.:50:26.

allowing right to buy or putting the money into shared ownership,

:50:27.:50:29.

There is nothing wrong with, to meet people's aspirations

:50:30.:50:36.

to own their own home, but Campbell is absolutely right

:50:37.:50:39.

when he started off, you know, talking about the fact we are living

:50:40.:50:42.

in London, and it is a particular peculiarly broken market,

:50:43.:50:45.

I'm an out of London MP and the challenges there are getting

:50:46.:50:51.

just as tough as parts of inner London, I have a son

:50:52.:50:54.

that is renting and we have all got the same pressures.

:50:55.:50:58.

Thanks for you to two for coming, good to see you.

:50:59.:51:01.

Sadiq Khan is calling for the Government to help scrap

:51:02.:51:06.

diesel vehicles with a generous package of compensation

:51:07.:51:08.

It would cost a tidy half a billion pounds in London alone.

:51:09.:51:14.

The mayor claims he has the boldest plans of any city in the world

:51:15.:51:17.

to tackle air pollution, but this report suggests it

:51:18.:51:20.

doesn't compare to what is being done in Paris.

:51:21.:51:27.

Not always known for being the calmest of experiences.

:51:28.:51:33.

But getting in a car in the French capital might soon be

:51:34.:51:36.

Take the ten lane Champs Elysees, which last Sunday you would

:51:37.:51:43.

Once a month, all vehicles are banned and buskers

:51:44.:51:52.

So, other than giving people a chance to boost their social

:51:53.:52:00.

media profile, what, you may ask, is the point?

:52:01.:52:03.

Well, the mayor of Paris is trying to say something very simple.

:52:04.:52:06.

If this, the Champs Elysees, one of the most famous

:52:07.:52:08.

streets in all the world, doesn't belong to the motor car,

:52:09.:52:13.

The mayor of Paris has even said she eventually wants to see

:52:14.:52:19.

the middle of the City out-of-bounds for every car, all the time.

:52:20.:52:22.

With exceptions for residents, deliveries and emergency services.

:52:23.:52:28.

The city of Paris has decided to fight the pollution in the air,

:52:29.:52:33.

and she's doing a lot of things, many, many different projects,

:52:34.:52:38.

but one of them is to bring the most important streets to the users

:52:39.:52:44.

No driver has been allowed up the left or right banks

:52:45.:52:51.

All of which starts to post big questions about how much Sadiq Khan

:52:52.:52:56.

is doing to fight air pollution in London.

:52:57.:53:00.

Now the mayor likes to say that London under him has the toughest

:53:01.:53:03.

anti-air pollution measures of any major city in the world.

:53:04.:53:07.

But, in fact, you only have to get a two-and-a-half hour train ride

:53:08.:53:10.

from St Pancras to find our nearest major rival is doing

:53:11.:53:13.

Both London and Paris have very similar problems with the air

:53:14.:53:20.

quality readings you get from monitoring stations.

:53:21.:53:24.

It means on a bad day, both cities are capable of having

:53:25.:53:27.

the highest readings anywhere in the world, including big

:53:28.:53:29.

In London, the mayor issues a warning but Paris

:53:30.:53:35.

Every car now has a number, according to how polluting it is.

:53:36.:53:43.

On the wrong day with the wrong sticker,

:53:44.:53:44.

Paris's deputy mayor for transport told us it a system they copied

:53:45.:53:50.

from the Germans and he thinks London will follow suit.

:53:51.:53:57.

TRANSLATION: Berlin has shown a significant reduction

:53:58.:54:01.

in polluting emissions, and air quality there has

:54:02.:54:06.

There is no reason why applying this system in Paris should not

:54:07.:54:11.

This is why we chose to pursue this path and believe

:54:12.:54:14.

Now the mayor of Paris wants to go even further than that.

:54:15.:54:18.

From 2020, people driving diesel cars will be banned from Paris,

:54:19.:54:21.

The most he wants to do is introduce a charge so people can

:54:22.:54:29.

still drive air polluting cars, but they have to pay a little extra

:54:30.:54:32.

And in France, 60% of cars are diesel, meaning over half

:54:33.:54:38.

of the motor cars on the road are set to be banned entirely.

:54:39.:54:44.

As you might have guessed, it is not universally popular.

:54:45.:54:46.

Please, don't do the same thing in London.

:54:47.:54:49.

Think about all the drivers in their cars today.

:54:50.:54:52.

So perhaps the real question for London is not whether Paris

:54:53.:55:04.

is doing more to crack down than we are, but if any

:55:05.:55:07.

of what they are doing we should be copying.

:55:08.:55:13.

Val Shawcross is here, deputy mayor for transport.

:55:14.:55:16.

For whatever reason the explanation might be, do you accept

:55:17.:55:21.

that Paris is bolder, bigger, bolder, better?

:55:22.:55:24.

No, I think they have communicated a very bold vision, which is great.

:55:25.:55:29.

I don't think the practical steps are behind it.

:55:30.:55:32.

I don't think the science is as strong as what we have

:55:33.:55:35.

For example, in London, if we have pursue the programme

:55:36.:55:40.

we are going through, by 2020 we will have

:55:41.:55:44.

reduced the air pollution in London by at least half.

:55:45.:55:49.

That is the date at which they are talking about doing a diesel ban

:55:50.:55:53.

in a small area of Paris, so, you know, the programme we have

:55:54.:55:56.

got is a very practical one and very deliverable,

:55:57.:55:59.

and I am very confident what we will do is make

:56:00.:56:02.

But how come, if they say they are banning all diesel vehicles

:56:03.:56:07.

by 2020, and you're not, but charging - it will be the T

:56:08.:56:11.

charge, ?10 or whatever it is - how come that is bolder than Paris?

:56:12.:56:17.

Well, you know, we do actually have to go through a transition,

:56:18.:56:21.

because we don't have the powers to ban diesel by the way,

:56:22.:56:24.

but if we did, you would find there would be a rush

:56:25.:56:27.

In all of this we have to balance a couple of things.

:56:28.:56:32.

One is we don't want to increase carbon dioxide emissions,

:56:33.:56:34.

The other thing is you have to bear in mind the entire

:56:35.:56:40.

London, you know, the practical things that London needs to run

:56:41.:56:45.

around usually are diesel, so what we want is to make sure

:56:46.:56:48.

we put enough pressure on enough carrots and sticks to make sure

:56:49.:56:51.

we transform the vehicles running around London to much cleaner

:56:52.:56:55.

Putting money where mouth is, the mayor of Paris does put ?500

:56:56.:57:04.

or offers ?500 as that scrappage compensation for people

:57:05.:57:08.

You are not doing that, you are just asking the Government for it.

:57:09.:57:13.

We have put some money into a scrappage scheme

:57:14.:57:16.

You are in effect saying you are not going to do much.

:57:17.:57:21.

No, and we have also, we are going through a programme

:57:22.:57:24.

which has been announced of cleaning up every bus in London.

:57:25.:57:27.

So by 2020, all of the buses - and a huge fleet it is in London -

:57:28.:57:31.

will be Euro Six standard, so we have a very practical

:57:32.:57:35.

programme that we are going through, it is legal and it has a very

:57:36.:57:38.

But no more money will come from the mayor in terms

:57:39.:57:43.

of private vehicles, getting us to get rid of our cars.

:57:44.:57:45.

We have asked the Government to help us with that.

:57:46.:57:48.

I know, but I am talking about the mayor's money.

:57:49.:57:50.

But the Government could find the money if -

:57:51.:57:52.

at the moment there is a fiscal incentive to people to buy diesel,

:57:53.:57:55.

which we think is completely wrong and outdated.

:57:56.:57:59.

If they remove that incentive and put it into a scrappage scheme,

:58:00.:58:03.

OK, one more, pedestrianisation, well advanced in Paris,

:58:04.:58:09.

Stickers, keeping cars out on polluted days,

:58:10.:58:15.

We are working on a big programme, as you know, with Westminster

:58:16.:58:20.

to look at what we can do with Oxford Street, and that is

:58:21.:58:23.

We have got a big healthy streets programme which has been funded

:58:24.:58:28.

in the business plan for more pedestrian and walking facilities,

:58:29.:58:31.

So we do have some complementary measures we are putting in over

:58:32.:58:37.

the next few years that will support this whose programme.

:58:38.:58:42.

Are you disappointed that Paris appears to be bolder than London,

:58:43.:58:45.

I am not disappointed, in that I know that the mayor has

:58:46.:58:50.

some funding for instance that we will be

:58:51.:58:53.

Some of my schools are adjacent to the north circular road

:58:54.:59:03.

for example, and the pollution is so high, nine out of ten

:59:04.:59:06.

in the readings, so that I am going to be applying,

:59:07.:59:09.

with the schools, to make sure we can pull down some of these

:59:10.:59:12.

fundings for innovative ways of combatting the pollution

:59:13.:59:14.

I think we have to push ahead with the diesel scrappage scheme

:59:15.:59:21.

I think the mayor and the Government has a role to play...

:59:22.:59:25.

At a cost of ?500 million, which he said this week,

:59:26.:59:28.

asking the Government, don't you think it's something

:59:29.:59:30.

It has to come out of general taxation,

:59:31.:59:33.

Yes, I think Val said that you do need to have a transition period

:59:34.:59:40.

on this, because what I would like to see is the move

:59:41.:59:43.

from the fiscal benefits of buying diesel as happened in the early

:59:44.:59:47.

2000s, allowing people to move not just from a diesel car,

:59:48.:59:52.

but hopefully to electric cars, and things like that,

:59:53.:59:56.

I saw Blue Point London the other day and they have some really good

:59:57.:59:59.

pioneering plans to put in more charge points,

:00:00.:00:03.

because you have to have - if you are going to get

:00:04.:00:06.

rid of one car you have to have an environmentally-friendly

:00:07.:00:08.

There is no point scrapping it for the sake of scrapping it.

:00:09.:00:16.

Are you saying that what Paris is saying is exaggerated

:00:17.:00:20.

because they are talking a much smaller area?

:00:21.:00:22.

Or can you name me one area where you think

:00:23.:00:24.

currently London is bolder, further ahead than Paris?

:00:25.:00:31.

We will be starting the T charge, the toxicity charge,

:00:32.:00:33.

So the pre-2006 vehicles, the objective is this October,

:00:34.:00:37.

so that is going to be very very important.

:00:38.:00:39.

I think there is another thing about the stickers, you know.

:00:40.:00:41.

The congestion charge, which is the technology we'll

:00:42.:00:43.

be using in October, that the camera based technology

:00:44.:00:46.

picks up 98% of offenders, whereas if you are using a sticker

:00:47.:00:48.

scheme, you have to have traffic wardens, so we will have tight

:00:49.:00:51.

We look forward to this competition continuing.

:00:52.:00:59.

Val Shawcross, thank you very much indeed.

:01:00.:01:00.

After the excitement and late nights in the Commons last week,

:01:01.:01:14.

MPs are having a little break this week as we head into

:01:15.:01:17.

But there's still plenty in the diary in the near future -

:01:18.:01:21.

let's just remind ourselves of some key upcoming dates.

:01:22.:01:28.

There they are. We have the two by-elections on February 23rd. The

:01:29.:01:38.

budget is 8th March. That will be the last spring budget under this

:01:39.:01:41.

Government because it moves to the autumn.

:01:42.:01:56.

That round of French elections narrows the candidates, probably

:01:57.:02:02.

about eight or nine, down to two, the two who come first and second,

:02:03.:02:08.

then go into a play off round on May 7th. That will determine the next

:02:09.:02:15.

President. Steve, listening to Oliver Letwin and to the Labour

:02:16.:02:18.

leader in the House of Lords, is there any way you think that end of

:02:19.:02:22.

March deadline for Mrs May could be in jeopardy? No, I don't. Andrew

:02:23.:02:28.

Smith couldn't have been clearer with you they would do nothing to

:02:29.:02:32.

block not just Article 50 but that timetable, so I would be surprised

:02:33.:02:38.

if they don't make it. Given her, Theresa May's explicit determination

:02:39.:02:43.

to do so, not to do so would have become a problem for her, I think

:02:44.:02:48.

one way or another... No before this vote last week there was a vote nor

:02:49.:02:52.

the deadline, to agree the deadline by all sides. Plain sailing do you

:02:53.:02:57.

think? There is no serious Parliamentary resistance and it

:02:58.:03:00.

would be a personal embarrassment, I think for the Prime Minister to name

:03:01.:03:03.

the the end of March as the deadline and to miss it, unless she has a

:03:04.:03:09.

good excuse. I I reckon it will change the atmosphere of politics

:03:10.:03:13.

for the next two years, as soon as the negotiations begin, people in

:03:14.:03:17.

our profession will hunt for any detail and inside information we can

:03:18.:03:21.

find, thing also be leaked, I think from the European side from time to

:03:22.:03:25.

time, it will dominate the headlines for a solid two years and change

:03:26.:03:29.

politics. Let me just raise a possible, a dark cloud. No bigger

:03:30.:03:36.

than man's hand, that can complicate the timetable, because the Royal

:03:37.:03:39.

Assent on the current timetable has to come round the 13th. I would

:03:40.:03:44.

suggest that the Prime Minister can't trigger that until she does

:03:45.:03:49.

get the Royal Assent. If there is a bit of ping-pong that could delay

:03:50.:03:54.

that by receive day, the last thing the Europeans would want, they have

:03:55.:03:58.

another big meeting at the end of March which is the 60th anniversary

:03:59.:04:04.

of the Treaty of Rome. They don't want Article 50 to land on the

:04:05.:04:11.

table... It would infuriate everybody. My guess is she will have

:04:12.:04:15.

done it by then, this is between the Commons and the Lords, I mean Andrew

:04:16.:04:19.

Smith couldn't have been clearer, that they might send something back

:04:20.:04:26.

but they didn't expect a kind of a long play over this, so. The Liberal

:04:27.:04:31.

Democrats, they are almost an irrelevance in the Commons but not

:04:32.:04:36.

the Lords, they feel differently. Now, we don't know yet what the

:04:37.:04:40.

European Union negotiating position is going to be, we don't know

:04:41.:04:44.

because there are several crucial elections taking place, the Dutch

:04:45.:04:47.

taking place in March and then the one we put up, the French, and, at

:04:48.:04:51.

the moment, the French one is, it seems like it is coming down, to a

:04:52.:04:58.

play-off in the second round between Madame Le Pen who could come first

:04:59.:05:06.

in the first round and this Blairite figure, independent, centre-leftish

:05:07.:05:10.

Mr Macron, he may well get through and that, and the outcome of that

:05:11.:05:15.

will be an important determine napt on our negotiations. -- determinant.

:05:16.:05:20.

You o couldn't have two more different candidate, you have a

:05:21.:05:24.

national a front candidate and on the other hand the closest thing

:05:25.:05:28.

France could have you to a liberal President. With a small l. A

:05:29.:05:36.

reformist liberal President. It would be the most French thing in

:05:37.:05:41.

the world to elect someone who while the rest of the world is elected

:05:42.:05:47.

elitist, to elect someone who is the son of a teacher, who has liberal

:05:48.:05:53.

views, is a member of the French elite. It would be a thing for them

:05:54.:06:01.

to elect a man like that which I why I see them doing it. If it is Le

:06:02.:06:09.

Pen, Brexit becomes a minor sideshow, if it is Le Pen, the

:06:10.:06:13.

future of the European Union is? Danger, regardless of whether we are

:06:14.:06:20.

were in or out. I suggest if it is Mr Macron that presents some

:06:21.:06:24.

problems. He doesn't have his own party. He won't have a majority in

:06:25.:06:28.

the French assembly, he is untried and untested. He wants to do a

:06:29.:06:32.

number of things that will be unpopular which is why a number of

:06:33.:06:39.

people close to Mrs Le Pen tell me that she has her eye on 2022. She

:06:40.:06:47.

thinks lit go to hell in a hand basket under Mr Macron. He hasn't

:06:48.:06:53.

got the experience. What I find fascinating. It is not just all to

:06:54.:06:58.

play for in France, it is the fact what happens in France and Germany,

:06:59.:07:02.

not so much Holland I think but Germany later on in the year, how

:07:03.:07:08.

much it impacts what we are going to get. How much which ex #i78 panting

:07:09.:07:21.

on them. And at the time we are trying to, withdrawing ourself from

:07:22.:07:24.

European politics it is fascinating how much it will affect us. You see

:07:25.:07:28.

what Matthew was talking about earlier in the show, that what we do

:07:29.:07:34.

know, almost for sure, is that the socialist candidate will not get

:07:35.:07:37.

through to the second round. He could come firth but the

:07:38.:07:42.

centre-right candidate. If we were discussing that monthing a we would

:07:43.:07:46.

say it between teen the centre-right and the national fronts. We are to

:07:47.:07:51.

saying that. Matthew good win who spent a time in France isn't sure Le

:07:52.:07:55.

Pen will get into the second round, which is interesting. It is, I mean,

:07:56.:08:01.

it is going to be as important for the future of the European Union, as

:08:02.:08:07.

in retrospect the British 2015 general election was, if Labour had

:08:08.:08:10.

got in there would have been no referendum. That referendum has

:08:11.:08:14.

transformed the European Union because we are leaving and the

:08:15.:08:20.

French election is significant. We will be live from Paris on April

:08:21.:08:25.

23rd on the day France goings to the first round of polls. Tom Watson, he

:08:26.:08:30.

was on The Andrew Marr Show earlier today, was asked about Mr Corbyn,

:08:31.:08:32.

this is what he had to say. We had a damaging second leadership

:08:33.:08:37.

election, so we've got The polls aren't great for us,

:08:38.:08:40.

but I'm determined now we've got the leadership settled for this

:08:41.:08:44.

parliament, that we can focus on developing a very positive clear

:08:45.:08:47.

message to the British people So Julia, I don't know who are you

:08:48.:09:02.

are giggling. I find it untenable that, he is a very good media

:09:03.:09:08.

performer and he comes on and he is sitting there so well, you know,

:09:09.:09:11.

things are bad but don't worry we are looking at what we can do to win

:09:12.:09:16.

2020. The idea that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were sitting in their

:09:17.:09:21.

offices or on TV screens at this time in the electoral cycle thinking

:09:22.:09:26.

well I wonder if we can come up with a policy the British people might

:09:27.:09:31.

like. It is a nonsense, this is Tuesday night book zlufb. I am going

:09:32.:09:39.

to ask you the question I was going to before. I would suggest that he

:09:40.:09:46.

the right. The deputy Labour leader Tom Watson is violent the leadership

:09:47.:09:52.

is settled, with one caveat, unless the Corbynistas themselves to decide

:09:53.:09:57.

to move on Mr Corbyn, if the left of the Labour Party decides then it is

:09:58.:10:02.

not settled. Settled. If that doesn't happen that is That would be

:10:03.:10:06.

the worst situation if you are a Labour moderate. The Corbynistas

:10:07.:10:11.

would be saying the problem is no Corbynism, it is Corbyn himself, if

:10:12.:10:17.

we a younger person leading the process we can win the next general

:10:18.:10:22.

election, which means you have another itration of this, another

:10:23.:10:26.

five year experiment. And that is worst of all. If you are a Labour

:10:27.:10:34.

moderate, what you want is Jeremy Corbyn contest the next general

:10:35.:10:38.

election, possibly loses badly and then a Labour not moderate runs for

:10:39.:10:42.

the leadership saying we have tried your way, the worst would be Corbyn

:10:43.:10:47.

going, and a younger seven version of him trying and the experiment

:10:48.:10:51.

being extended. I see no easy way out of this. That is why he radiated

:10:52.:10:57.

the enthusiasm of someone in a hostage video in that interview.

:10:58.:11:02.

Maybe he has the Stockholm Syndrome now. The Labour moderates have had

:11:03.:11:08.

their day in the sun, two days in the sun and they lost. I suggest

:11:09.:11:12.

they are not going to try for the hat-trick again. Is there any

:11:13.:11:17.

indication that on the more Corbyn wing of the Labour Party, there is

:11:18.:11:24.

now doubts about their man. Yes, just to translate Tom Watson, what

:11:25.:11:29.

he meant was I Tom Watson am not going to get involved in another

:11:30.:11:35.

attempted coup. I tried it and it was a catastrophe. That is question

:11:36.:11:40.

enhe says it is set selled. It is because there is speculation on a

:11:41.:11:46.

daily basis. I disagree, Julia said I think this lot don't care about

:11:47.:11:52.

winning, I think they do. If the current position continue, one of

:11:53.:11:55.

two things will happen. Either Jeremy Corbyn will decide himself

:11:56.:12:00.

will decide he doesn't want to carry on. He half enjoys I it and half

:12:01.:12:06.

hates it. Finds it a strain. If that doesn't happen there will be some

:12:07.:12:11.

people round him who will say, look, this isn't working. There is another

:12:12.:12:17.

three-and-a-half years. There is a long way to go. I can't see it

:12:18.:12:23.

lasting in this way with politics in a state of flux, Tories will be

:12:24.:12:27.

under pressure in the coming two years, to have opinion polls at this

:12:28.:12:32.

level, I think is unsustainable. Final thought from you.? Yes, the

:12:33.:12:37.

idea it St another three-and-a-half years is just madness, but the

:12:38.:12:41.

people we are putting up at replacement for Jeremy Corbyn, and

:12:42.:12:47.

they have been focus grouping them. Most members wouldn't know who most

:12:48.:12:51.

of people were let alone most of the public.

:12:52.:12:55.

Angela rain? They are not overwhelmed with leadership

:12:56.:13:02.

potential at the moment. Very diplomatically put. Neither are the

:13:03.:13:06.

Tories, but they happened to have one at the moment. All right. That

:13:07.:13:07.

is it. Now, there's no Daily

:13:08.:13:11.

or Sunday Politics for the next week But the Daily Politics will be back

:13:12.:13:13.

on Monday 20th February and I'll be back here with the Sunday Politics

:13:14.:13:18.

on the 26th. Remember if it's Sunday,

:13:19.:13:22.

it's the Sunday Politics... Just back from

:13:23.:13:24.

a very long shift at work...

:13:25.:14:05.

Andrew Neil and Tim Donovan present the latest political news, interviews and debate and are joined by shadow leader of the House of Lords Baroness Smith and Conservative Oliver Letwin. The political panellists are Janan Ganesh from the Financial Times, Julia Hartley-Brewer from talkRADIO and journalist Steve Richards.