19/03/2017 Sunday Politics London


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19/03/2017

Andrew Neil and Tim Donovan with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew is joined by head of NHS Providers Chris Hopson, Nick Clegg MP and Andrew Gwynne MP.


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:34.:00:36.

She faces huge political fights over Brexit, Scottish independence,

:00:37.:00:40.

After a tumultuous political week, we'll analyse the PM's prospects.

:00:41.:00:53.

With chatter increasing about a possible early General Election,

:00:54.:00:55.

Jeremy Corbyn's campaign chief joins me live.

:00:56.:01:00.

NHS bosses warn health services in England are facing "mission

:01:01.:01:03.

impossible" and waiting times for operations will rocket,

:01:04.:01:07.

unless hospitals are given more cash this year.

:01:08.:01:10.

The chief executive of NHS Providers joins me live.

:01:11.:01:15.

In London this week, a question of space.

:01:16.:01:18.

How the need for new homes in a congested city is getting

:01:19.:01:21.

All that to come before 12:15pm, and I'll also be talking

:01:22.:01:35.

to the former leader of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg

:01:36.:01:38.

from his party's spring conference in York.

:01:39.:01:40.

With me here in the studio, throughout the programme,

:01:41.:01:45.

three of the country's top political commentators:

:01:46.:01:47.

Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

:01:48.:01:53.

They'll be tweeting their thoughts using #bbcsp.

:01:54.:01:54.

So, the political challenges facing Theresa May are stacking up.

:01:55.:01:57.

As well as negotiating Britain's exit from the EU,

:01:58.:02:03.

the PM must now deal with SNP demands for a second referendum

:02:04.:02:06.

on Scottish independence, backbenchers agitating against cuts

:02:07.:02:11.

to school budgets, and a humiliated Chancellor forced to u-turn on a key

:02:12.:02:14.

budget measure just one week after announcing it.

:02:15.:02:19.

Here's Adam Fleming on aturbulent political week

:02:20.:02:20.

Monday, 11:30am, TV crews gather in the residence of the First

:02:21.:02:38.

Minister of Scotland, who's got a surprise.

:02:39.:02:39.

She wants a vote on whether Scotland should leave the UK

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By taking the steps I have set out today I am ensuring that Scotland's

:02:43.:02:46.

future will be decided, not just by me, the

:02:47.:02:49.

Scottish Government, or the

:02:50.:02:50.

SNP, it will be decided by the people of Scotland.

:02:51.:02:52.

Westminster, 6:25pm the same day, MPs reject

:02:53.:03:02.

amendments to the legislation authorising the Prime Minister to

:03:03.:03:06.

The Bill ceremonially heads to the Lords where peers abandoned

:03:07.:03:20.

attempts to change it and it becomes law.

:03:21.:03:22.

But Downing Street doesn't trigger Article 50 as many had expected.

:03:23.:03:28.

Some say they were spooked by Nicola Sturgeon.

:03:29.:03:31.

We get an e-mail from the Treasury can the

:03:32.:03:47.

We get an e-mail from the Treasury cancelling

:03:48.:03:49.

the planned rise in National Insurance for

:03:50.:04:00.

the self-employed announced the budget.

:04:01.:04:02.

It's just minutes before Prime Minister's Questions at noon.

:04:03.:04:04.

The trend towards greater self-employment does create a

:04:05.:04:06.

We will bring forward further proposals

:04:07.:04:09.

but we will not bring forward increases to NICs later in this

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It seems to me like a government in a bit of chaos here.

:04:13.:04:16.

By making this change today we are listening to our colleagues

:04:17.:04:18.

fulfil both the letter and the spirit of our manifesto tax

:04:19.:04:22.

Thursday, 7am, Conservative campaign HQ and the

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Electoral Commission fines the party ?70,000 for misreporting spending

:04:33.:04:34.

But that's not what the Prime Minister

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Because at 12:19pm she gives her verdict on a

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We should be working together, not pulling apart.

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We should be working together to get that

:04:49.:04:50.

right deal for Scotland, that

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So, as I say, that's my job as Prime Minister and

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so for that reason I say to the SNP now is not the time.

:04:57.:05:00.

Friday and time for the faithful to gather.

:05:01.:05:02.

SNP activists at their spring conference

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Conservatives in Cardiff to hear the Prime Minister

:05:04.:05:14.

promote her plan for a more meritocratic Brexit Britain.

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At 11:10am comes some news about a newspaper that's frankly

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I'm thrilled and excited to be the new editor of The

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Evening Standard and, you know, with so many

:05:28.:05:29.

big issues in our world what

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good analysis, great news journalism.

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It's a really important time for good journalism that The

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Evening Standard is going to provide.

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There was no let-up yesterday as Gordon Brown launched proposals

:05:43.:05:49.

Under my proposals we keep the Barnett

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Formula, we keep the fiscal transfers, but we also bring the

:05:55.:05:58.

and fisheries back to the Scottish Parliament.

:05:59.:06:03.

And just think, all this and we're still counting down to the

:06:04.:06:05.

What a week in politics. It has been a torrid week for the government,

:06:06.:06:23.

Isabel Oakeshott, but does Theresa May shake it off, or is this a sign

:06:24.:06:27.

of worse to come? We may all be feeling a bit breathless after the

:06:28.:06:30.

events of last week and we are in for a a long war of attrition with

:06:31.:06:38.

the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon's strategy will be to foster over lengthy

:06:39.:06:42.

periods of time as much resentment and anger as she can in Scotland and

:06:43.:06:47.

try to create the impression that independence is somehow inevitable.

:06:48.:06:52.

Is Scotland the biggest challenge for Theresa May in the next year or

:06:53.:06:56.

so? I think it probably is because if you look at how relatively easily

:06:57.:07:00.

the Brexit bill went through on an issue where people could hardly feel

:07:01.:07:04.

more passionate in the Commons, and actually despite all the potential

:07:05.:07:07.

drama it has gone through quite smoothly. To go back to your

:07:08.:07:11.

original question, she just carries on. Don't underestimate the basic

:07:12.:07:16.

quiet and will towards Theresa May amongst the majority of Tory

:07:17.:07:20.

backbenchers. Yes, there are difficult little issues over school

:07:21.:07:24.

funding, sorry, it's not a little issue, it is a big one but she will

:07:25.:07:28.

get over that and treat each thing as it comes and keep pressing on.

:07:29.:07:32.

Has she not called Nicola Sturgeon's Bluff in that the First Minister

:07:33.:07:37.

said I want a referendum, here is roughly when I wanted, the Prime

:07:38.:07:42.

Minister says you're not having one. What happens next? She has done

:07:43.:07:46.

quite well and impact the progress Theresa May made this week in

:07:47.:07:51.

frustrating Nicola Sturgeon was evident when Nicola Sturgeon said,

:07:52.:07:54.

OK, maybe we can talk about the timing after. Nicola Sturgeon has

:07:55.:07:58.

already been the first one to blink. I would slightly disagree with

:07:59.:08:01.

Isabel Oakeshott, I don't agree Scotland will be the biggest hurdle

:08:02.:08:05.

for her. What this week showed as is Theresa May... It was a reality

:08:06.:08:11.

bites week. Theresa May is juggling four mammoth crises at the same

:08:12.:08:14.

time, Brexit obviously which I still think will be the biggest challenge

:08:15.:08:17.

to get a good deal, Trump left field who popped up at GCHQ on Friday and

:08:18.:08:24.

Scotland and the fiscal challenge, this enormous great problem, and it

:08:25.:08:30.

reinforced the point this is not an easy time in politics. The budget is

:08:31.:08:36.

over four years. That was one small problem, the immediate problem is

:08:37.:08:39.

how to fill the social care crisis and the ageing demographic. This is

:08:40.:08:42.

not normal times in British politics and Theresa May does not have a

:08:43.:08:45.

normal workload on her plate, hence why I think we will see more

:08:46.:08:50.

mistakes made as time goes on and as she has this almost impossible

:08:51.:08:55.

workload to juggle. How tempted do you think the Prime Minister is to

:08:56.:08:58.

call an early election? There is more chatter about it now. Is she

:08:59.:09:03.

tempted and if there is will she succumb? I will answer that in a

:09:04.:09:07.

second as Harold Wilson used to say. I want to agree, disagree with the

:09:08.:09:11.

rest of the panel about how she has out manipulated Nicola Sturgeon this

:09:12.:09:14.

week. I think Nicola Sturgeon expected Theresa May to say no to

:09:15.:09:19.

her expected timetable. It would be amazing if she had said yes. She

:09:20.:09:23.

expected her to say no but Sturgeon catalyst that will fuel support for

:09:24.:09:27.

her cause. There is no sign of that. The latest poll this morning shows

:09:28.:09:33.

66-44 against independence and only 13% think they would be better off

:09:34.:09:39.

with an independent Scotland and a clear majority do not want a second

:09:40.:09:43.

referendum. But the calculation of resistance from Westminster combined

:09:44.:09:46.

with Brexit which hasn't started yet, I think this is her

:09:47.:09:49.

calculation, she didn't expect Theresa May to say, sure, go ahead,

:09:50.:09:54.

I'm sure she expected Theresa May to say no, you can't have it at your

:09:55.:09:58.

desired timetable. On the wider point, I think Theresa May is in a

:09:59.:10:02.

fascinating position, she is both strong because she faces weak

:10:03.:10:06.

opposition and is ahead in the opinion polls. But faces the most

:10:07.:10:11.

daunting agenda of any Prime Minister for 40 or 50 years, I

:10:12.:10:16.

think. So it's a weird combination. I don't think she wants to call an

:10:17.:10:19.

election. I don't think she has thought about how you would

:10:20.:10:22.

manipulate it, what the trigger would be, and whether she's got the

:10:23.:10:26.

energy and space to prepare for and then mount a campaign was beginning

:10:27.:10:32.

the Brexit negotiation. Now, you could see the cause would be the

:10:33.:10:37.

small majorities that will make her life hellish, which it will do.

:10:38.:10:40.

Whether a landslide would help is another question, they can be

:10:41.:10:44.

difficult too. But I think the problems outweigh the advantages of

:10:45.:10:49.

going early. Do you think she would go for an early election? I don't

:10:50.:10:52.

and I think you have to look at the rhetoric coming out of No 10 which

:10:53.:10:56.

is so firm on this question, it is a delicious prospect for us as

:10:57.:10:59.

commentators to think there might be an election around the corner but

:11:00.:11:02.

they are so firm on this I can't see it happening. I agree, we are in

:11:03.:11:07.

unanimous agreement on this one. It is superficially attractive because

:11:08.:11:09.

she would love the big majority and she would get a lot more through

:11:10.:11:13.

Parliament especially with Brexit. The nitty-gritty of it makes an

:11:14.:11:17.

early General Election this year almost impossible. How do you write

:11:18.:11:21.

a manifesto on high Brexit versus soft Brexit, it opens up a Pandora's

:11:22.:11:26.

box of uncertainties. And there is enough with the European elections.

:11:27.:11:30.

The EU will say are we negotiating with you or the person who may

:11:31.:11:34.

replace you? How do you keep the Tory party united going to an

:11:35.:11:38.

election? How do you call one, with a vote of no confidence in yourself

:11:39.:11:42.

you may end up losing. Easy on paper but difficult in practice. We shall

:11:43.:11:43.

see. So if Theresa May did go

:11:44.:11:45.

for an early election this spring, The party's campaigns

:11:46.:11:48.

and elections chief Andrew Gwynne Andrew Gwynne, the government, as we

:11:49.:11:58.

have just been talking about, executed one of the most

:11:59.:12:01.

embarrassing U-turns in recent history this week. It has been a

:12:02.:12:05.

torrid time for the Theresa May government. Why are the Tories still

:12:06.:12:08.

so chipper? The Labour Party has been on an

:12:09.:12:13.

early election footing since before Christmas and we are preparing

:12:14.:12:16.

ourselves for that eventuality in case that does come. That means that

:12:17.:12:20.

we've got to get ourselves into a position whereby we can not only

:12:21.:12:25.

challenge the government but we can also offer a valuable alternative

:12:26.:12:31.

for the British people to choose from should that election arise. So,

:12:32.:12:37.

would you welcome an early General Election? Well, of course, I don't

:12:38.:12:40.

want this government to be in power so of course if there is an

:12:41.:12:43.

opportunity to put a case to the British people as to why there is a

:12:44.:12:47.

better way, and I believe the Labour way is the better way than of course

:12:48.:12:52.

we would want to put that case to the country. So, would Labour vote

:12:53.:12:57.

in the Commons for an early election? Well, of course as an

:12:58.:13:01.

opposition, not wanting to be in opposition, wanting to be in

:13:02.:13:05.

government should the government put forward a measure in accordance with

:13:06.:13:09.

the Fixed-term Parliaments Act then that's something we would very

:13:10.:13:13.

seriously have to consider. I know you would have to consider it but

:13:14.:13:16.

would you vote for an early election or not? Well, of course we want to

:13:17.:13:21.

be the government so if the current government puts forward measures to

:13:22.:13:24.

bring forward a General Election we would want to put our case to the

:13:25.:13:28.

British public and that's one of the jobs that I've been given, together

:13:29.:13:33.

Labour Party organisation early into a position where we can fight a

:13:34.:13:37.

General Election -- organisationally. For the avoidance

:13:38.:13:41.

of doubt, if the Government work to issue a motion in the Commons for an

:13:42.:13:45.

early election, the Labour Party would vote for an early election?

:13:46.:13:49.

It would be very difficult not, Andrew. If the Government wants to

:13:50.:13:53.

dissolve parliament, wants a General Election, we don't want the Tories

:13:54.:13:56.

in government, we want to be in government and we want to have that

:13:57.:14:01.

opportunity to put that case to the British people.

:14:02.:14:03.

Are you ready for an early election? You say you have been on a war all

:14:04.:14:12.

but since the Labour conference last autumn, but are you ready for one?

:14:13.:14:14.

How big is the election fighting fund? We have substantial amounts of

:14:15.:14:18.

money in our fighting fund, that is true, because not only has the

:14:19.:14:22.

Labour Party managed to eliminate its own financial deficit that it

:14:23.:14:27.

inherited from previous election campaigns, we have also managed to

:14:28.:14:35.

build up a substantial fund in the off chance we have an election. We

:14:36.:14:40.

have also expanded massively operations at Labour HQ, we are

:14:41.:14:44.

taking on additional staff, and one of the jobs that myself and Ian

:14:45.:14:48.

Lavery who I job share with are currently doing is to go around the

:14:49.:14:51.

Parliamentary Labour Party to make sure that Labour colleagues have the

:14:52.:14:55.

support and the resources that they need, should they have to face the

:14:56.:14:59.

electorate in their constituencies. So you are on a war footing, ready

:15:00.:15:03.

for the fight, you say you would vote for the fight, so have you got

:15:04.:15:07.

your tax and spend policies ready to roll out? That is something the

:15:08.:15:12.

shadow Treasury team will be discussing. One of the things is, if

:15:13.:15:17.

there is an early General Election, the normal timetable for these

:15:18.:15:20.

things gets fast-track because our policy decision-making body, its

:15:21.:15:25.

annual conference, we have the national policy forum that creates

:15:26.:15:30.

policies suggestions. You have been on a war footing since the last

:15:31.:15:33.

Labour conference, that is what Mr Corbyn told us. So you must have a

:15:34.:15:37.

fair idea of what policies you would fight an early election on. How much

:15:38.:15:42.

extra per year would you spend on the NHS? Well, look, I'm not going

:15:43.:15:46.

to set out the Labour manifesto for an election that hasn't been called.

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I'm just asking you about the NHS. You must have a policy for that. We

:15:51.:15:55.

have a policy for the NHS. So how much extra? I will not set out

:15:56.:16:01.

Labour's tax-and-spend policies here on The Sunday Politics when there

:16:02.:16:04.

hasn't even been election called. You said you had been on a war

:16:05.:16:08.

footing and you are prepared to vote for one, so if you can't Tommy that,

:16:09.:16:14.

can you tell me what the corporation rate tax on company profits be under

:16:15.:16:19.

a Labour government -- tell me that. You will have to be patient. I have.

:16:20.:16:25.

And wait for Mrs May to trigger an early election. If there is an

:16:26.:16:28.

election on the 4th of May the rich would have to be issued on the 27th

:16:29.:16:33.

of March, so that's not long to wait. If that date passes we aren't

:16:34.:16:38.

having an election on the 4th of May and the normal timetable for policy

:16:39.:16:43.

development will continue. All right. You lost Copeland, I think

:16:44.:16:47.

you were in charge of a by-election for Labour, your national poll

:16:48.:16:51.

ratings are still dire, even after week of terrible times for the

:16:52.:16:56.

Tories. Sometimes you even lose local government by-elections in

:16:57.:17:00.

safe seats, including in the place you are now, in Salford. How long

:17:01.:17:04.

does Mr Corbyn have to turn this around? Well, look, the issue of the

:17:05.:17:09.

Labour leadership was settled last year. The last thing the Labour

:17:10.:17:13.

Party now needs is another period of introspection with the Labour Party

:17:14.:17:17.

merely talks to the Labour Party. We are now on an election footing in

:17:18.:17:24.

case Mrs May does trigger an early General Election. We need to be

:17:25.:17:29.

talking to the British people are not to ourselves. So any speculation

:17:30.:17:33.

about the Labour leadership might excite you in the media but actually

:17:34.:17:37.

for us in the Labour Party it's about re-engaging and reconnecting

:17:38.:17:40.

with the voters. Rather than being excited, I feel quite daunted at the

:17:41.:17:44.

prospect of an early election. So I wouldn't get that right. Normally,

:17:45.:17:50.

given the number of mistakes this government has made, and its

:17:51.:17:54.

mid-term, you would expect any self-respecting opposition to be

:17:55.:17:58.

about ten points ahead. On the latest polls this morning you are 17

:17:59.:18:04.

behind. There is a 27-30 point gap from where you should normally be as

:18:05.:18:08.

an opposition. Are you telling me that if that doesn't change, you

:18:09.:18:11.

still fight the General Election with Mr Corbyn?

:18:12.:18:17.

These are matters for the future. I believe the leadership issue was

:18:18.:18:25.

settled last year. We have had two leadership contest in two years.

:18:26.:18:29.

Would you seriously contemplate going into the next election, if it

:18:30.:18:33.

is early I perfectly understand Jeremy Corbyn is your man, but if it

:18:34.:18:39.

is not until 2020, and you are still 17 points behind in the polls, will

:18:40.:18:43.

you go into the next election like that? There is a lot of future

:18:44.:18:48.

looking and speculation there, I don't know what the future holds,

:18:49.:18:57.

where the Labour Party will be in 12 months let alone by 2020 summit

:18:58.:18:59.

cross those bridges when we come to it. My main challenge is to make

:19:00.:19:02.

sure the Labour Party is in the best possible place organisationally to

:19:03.:19:05.

fight an election, that's my challenge and I'm up for that to

:19:06.:19:08.

make sure we are in the best possible place to make sure Labour

:19:09.:19:15.

returns as many Labour MPs as possible. Thank you for joining us.

:19:16.:19:21.

And we're joined now from the Liberal Democrats' spring

:19:22.:19:23.

conference in York by the former Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg.

:19:24.:19:25.

Good morning. In his conference speech today, Tim Farron lumps

:19:26.:19:34.

Theresa May with Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump. In

:19:35.:19:39.

what way is Mrs May similar to Marine Le Pen? Of course he is not

:19:40.:19:48.

saying Theresa May is identical to Marine Le Pen, I think what Tim

:19:49.:19:53.

Wilby spelling out shortly in his speech is that we need to be aware

:19:54.:19:57.

what's going on in the world, the International settlement that was

:19:58.:20:04.

arrived at after the First World -- Second World War, that bound

:20:05.:20:10.

supranational organisations is under attack from characters as diverse as

:20:11.:20:15.

Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump, and that by side in so

:20:16.:20:19.

ostentatiously with Donald Trump and pursuing this very hard Brexit,

:20:20.:20:23.

Theresa May appears to be giving succour to that much more

:20:24.:20:28.

isolationist chauvinist view of the world than the multilateral approach

:20:29.:20:32.

that Britain has subscribed to for a long time. The exact words he plans

:20:33.:20:38.

to use are welcome to the New World order, Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump,

:20:39.:20:46.

Marine Le Pen, Theresa May, aggressive and teenage to, anti-EU,

:20:47.:20:52.

nationalistic. In what way is Mrs May fitting into any of that? In

:20:53.:20:56.

what way is she similar to Vladimir Putin? I'm not aware she has

:20:57.:21:02.

interfered with other people's elections. The clue is in the quote

:21:03.:21:07.

you just read out, which is the world order. The world order over

:21:08.:21:12.

the last half century or more, by the way a lesson I'm afraid we have

:21:13.:21:16.

to learn in Europe because of the terrible bloodshed of two world was

:21:17.:21:21.

in the space of a few decades, was based on the idea might is not

:21:22.:21:26.

right. Strong arm leaders cannot throw their weight around. What we

:21:27.:21:32.

have now with Putin, the populism across parts of Europe and Donald

:21:33.:21:38.

Trump who thinks the EU will unravel is a shift to a radically different

:21:39.:21:43.

view of the world. Mrs May doesn't think any of that. She is not

:21:44.:21:49.

antenatal, not anti-EU, she says she wants the EU to succeed. She's not

:21:50.:21:55.

aggressive as far as I'm aware so I'm not sure why you would lump the

:21:56.:21:58.

British Prime Minister in with these other characters. Let me explain, by

:21:59.:22:05.

choosing this uncompromising approach to Brexit, clearly in doing

:22:06.:22:13.

so she, in my view, maybe not yours or others, is pursuing a self

:22:14.:22:17.

harming approach to the United Kingdom but also pulling up the

:22:18.:22:20.

threads that bind the rest of the European Union together, in so

:22:21.:22:25.

ostentatiously siding with Donald Trump, somehow declaring in my view

:22:26.:22:30.

speciously that we can make up with the trade we will lose, she's not

:22:31.:22:39.

challenging the shift to a more chauvinist approach to world affairs

:22:40.:22:43.

that is happening in many places. You are at your party's Spring

:22:44.:22:48.

conference, I think we can agree any Lib Dem come back will take a long

:22:49.:22:53.

time. Would Tory dominance be more effectively challenged by a

:22:54.:22:58.

realignment of the centre and the centre-left? Are you working towards

:22:59.:23:03.

that? I missed half the question but I think you are talking about a

:23:04.:23:10.

realignment. As a cook a way to get over Tory dominance, would you want

:23:11.:23:14.

that to happen? Are you working towards that? My view is the

:23:15.:23:20.

recovery of the Lib Dems will be quicker than you suggest. People

:23:21.:23:24.

often forget that even the low point of our fortunes in the last election

:23:25.:23:28.

we still got a million more votes than the SNP, it's only because we

:23:29.:23:33.

have got this crazy electoral system... But the SNP fight in

:23:34.:23:41.

Scotland, you fight in the whole country! But I'm saying the way

:23:42.:23:47.

seats are allocated overlooks the fact that 2.5 million still voted

:23:48.:23:56.

for us. But my own view is of course there are people feeling

:23:57.:24:00.

increasingly homeless in the liberal wing of the Conservative Party

:24:01.:24:03.

because they are now in a party which is in effect indistinguishable

:24:04.:24:07.

from Ukip on some of the biggest issues of the day, and homeless folk

:24:08.:24:14.

on the rational, reasonable wing of the Labour Party. I would invite

:24:15.:24:18.

them to join the Liberal Democrats and I would invite everyone across

:24:19.:24:22.

parties to talk about the idea is that bind us because the Westminster

:24:23.:24:27.

village can invest a lot of energy building new castles in the sky,

:24:28.:24:31.

inventing new names for parties when actually what you want is for people

:24:32.:24:34.

on the progressive centre ground of British politics to talk about the

:24:35.:24:46.

ideas that unite them, from the dilemmas of artificial intelligence

:24:47.:24:51.

to climate change. Do you think in your own view, can Brexit still be

:24:52.:24:55.

thwarted or is it now a matter of getting the best terms? I think we

:24:56.:25:04.

are in an interlude, almost a calm between two storms, the storm of the

:25:05.:25:08.

referendum itself and the collision between the Government's stated

:25:09.:25:12.

ambitions for Brexit and the reality of having to negotiate something

:25:13.:25:16.

unworkable with 27 other governments. The one thing I can

:25:17.:25:21.

guarantee you is that what the Government has promised to the

:25:22.:25:32.

British people cannot happen. Over a slower period of time we will work

:25:33.:25:37.

out our new relationship with the European Union. Theresa May said she

:25:38.:25:41.

will settle divorce arrangements, and pensions, so one, negotiate new

:25:42.:25:48.

trade agreements, new climate change policies and so on, and have all of

:25:49.:25:52.

that ratified within two years, that will not happen so I think there

:25:53.:25:57.

will be a lot of turbulence in the next couple of years. Will you use

:25:58.:26:02.

this turbulence to try to thwart Brexit, to find a way of rolling

:26:03.:26:09.

back the decision? It's not about repeating the debates of the past or

:26:10.:26:13.

thwarting the will of the people but it is comparing what people were

:26:14.:26:18.

promised from the ?350 million for the NHS every week through to this

:26:19.:26:24.

glittering array of new trade agreements we will sign across the

:26:25.:26:28.

world, with the reality that will transpire in the next couple of

:26:29.:26:32.

years and at that point, yes it is my belief people should be able to

:26:33.:26:36.

take a second look at if that is what they really want. A couple of

:26:37.:26:40.

quick questions, would you welcome an early general election? I always

:26:41.:26:48.

welcome them, we couldn't do worse than we did last time. That is

:26:49.:26:55.

certainly true. You have a column in the Evening Standard, have you

:26:56.:26:57.

spoken to the new editor about whether he will keep your column or

:26:58.:27:04.

spike it? No, I wait in nervous anticipation. Can you be a newspaper

:27:05.:27:11.

editor in the morning and an MP in the afternoon? Do I think that's

:27:12.:27:19.

feasible? Sorry, I missed a bit. There is no prohibition, no law

:27:20.:27:24.

against MPs being editors. They have been in the past and no doubt will

:27:25.:27:29.

again in the future. He is taking a lot on, he is an editor, also

:27:30.:27:36.

wanting to be an MP, a jetsetting academic in the States, working in

:27:37.:27:40.

the city, I suspect something will give. It seems to me even by his

:27:41.:27:45.

self-confidence standards in his own abilities I suspect he is taking on

:27:46.:27:51.

a little bit too much. Very diplomatic, Mr Clegg, I'm sure you

:27:52.:27:54.

will get to keep the column. Thanks for joining us.

:27:55.:27:59.

Now, for the last six months England's NHS bosses have been

:28:00.:28:01.

warning the health service needs more money to help it meet

:28:02.:28:04.

But in his first Budget, the Chancellor offered

:28:05.:28:07.

no immediate relief, and today the head of

:28:08.:28:09.

the organisation representing England's NHS trusts says hundreds

:28:10.:28:11.

of thousands of patients will have to wait longer for both emergency

:28:12.:28:14.

care and planned operations, unless the Government

:28:15.:28:15.

Warnings over funding are not exactly new.

:28:16.:28:23.

Back in 2014 the head of the NHS in England, Simon Stevens,

:28:24.:28:26.

published his plan for the future of the health service.

:28:27.:28:31.

In his five-year forward view, Stevens said the NHS in England

:28:32.:28:34.

would face a funding shortfall of up to ?30 billion by 2020.

:28:35.:28:37.

To bridge that gap he said the NHS would need more money

:28:38.:28:40.

from the Government, at least ?8 billion extra,

:28:41.:28:43.

and that the health service could account for the rest by making

:28:44.:28:46.

The Government says it's given the health service more than what it

:28:47.:28:53.

asked for, and that NHS in England will have received

:28:54.:28:56.

That number is disputed by NHS managers and the chair

:28:57.:29:01.

of Parliament's health committee, who say the figure is more

:29:02.:29:03.

like ?4.5 billion, while other parts of the health and social care budget

:29:04.:29:07.

have been cut, putting pressure on the front line.

:29:08.:29:12.

Last year, two thirds of NHS trusts in England finished

:29:13.:29:16.

the year in the red, and despite emergency bailouts

:29:17.:29:18.

from the Government, the NHS is likely to record

:29:19.:29:20.

Meanwhile national targets on waiting times for A

:29:21.:29:25.

departments, diagnostic tests, and operations are being

:29:26.:29:28.

This month's Budget provided ?2 billion for social care

:29:29.:29:35.

but there was no new cash for the NHS, leading trusts to warn

:29:36.:29:39.

that patient care is beginning to suffer, and what is being asked

:29:40.:29:42.

And I'm joined now by the Chief Executive of NHS

:29:43.:29:48.

Providers in England, Chris Hopson.

:29:49.:29:53.

Welcome to the programme. Morning, Andrew. I will come onto the extra

:29:54.:30:00.

money you need to do your job properly in a minute but first, part

:30:01.:30:05.

of the deal was you had to make 22 billion in efficiency savings, not a

:30:06.:30:08.

bank that money but spend it on patient care, the front line, and so

:30:09.:30:14.

on. How is that going? So, last parliament we realised around 18

:30:15.:30:17.

billion of productivity and efficiency savings, we are realising

:30:18.:30:20.

more this year so we are on course to realise 3 billion this year, that

:30:21.:30:24.

is a quarter of a billion more than last year but all of us in the NHS

:30:25.:30:29.

knew the 22 billion would be a very stretching target and we are

:30:30.:30:33.

somewhat inevitably falling short. So it is 22 billion by 2,020.

:30:34.:30:40.

Roughly. That was the time. We are now into 2017. So how much of the 22

:30:41.:30:48.

billion have you achieved? We realised around 3 billion last year

:30:49.:30:53.

and we will realise 3 billion this year, Court of billion more, 3.25

:30:54.:30:59.

billion this year, so we are on course for 18-19,000,000,000. By the

:31:00.:31:03.

2021 period? You are not that far away. The problem is the degree to

:31:04.:31:07.

which demand is going up. We have record demand over the winter period

:31:08.:31:12.

and that actually meant we have seen more people than we have ever seen

:31:13.:31:16.

before but performance is still under real pressure. Let me come

:31:17.:31:22.

onto that. When you agreed on the 22 billion efficiency savings plus some

:31:23.:31:26.

extra money from the government, I know there is a bit of an argument

:31:27.:31:30.

about how much that is actually worth, had you not factored in this

:31:31.:31:35.

extra demand that you saw coming over the next three or four years?

:31:36.:31:39.

Let's be very clear committee referred to Simon Stevens's forward

:31:40.:31:44.

view and we signed up to it but the 22 billion was a process run at the

:31:45.:31:48.

centre of government by the Department of Health with its arms

:31:49.:31:51.

length bodies, NHS England and others and is not something that was

:31:52.:31:55.

consulted on with the NHS. But you signed up to it. We always said that

:31:56.:31:59.

the day that that Spending Review was announced, the idea that the NHS

:32:00.:32:05.

where customer demand goes up something like four or 5% every

:32:06.:32:09.

year, the idea that in the middle years of Parliament we would be able

:32:10.:32:12.

to provide the same level of service when we were only getting funding

:32:13.:32:18.

increases of 1.3%, 0.4% and 0.7%, and I can show you the press release

:32:19.:32:23.

we issued, we always said there was going to be a gap and that we would

:32:24.:32:27.

not be able to deliver what was required. The full 22 billion in

:32:28.:32:34.

other words? What we said to Simon Stevens at the Public Accounts

:32:35.:32:36.

Committee a few months ago, the NHS didn't get what it was asked for.

:32:37.:32:42.

Today the NHS, cope with the resources it has according to you.

:32:43.:32:49.

How much more does it need? Are reported is about 2017-18 and we

:32:50.:32:52.

estimate that what we are being asked to do, and again, Andrew, you

:32:53.:32:56.

clearly set it out in the package, we are a long way off the four-hour

:32:57.:33:01.

A target and a long way off the 92%. The waiting times and

:33:02.:33:05.

operations. How much more do you need? And we are making up a ?900

:33:06.:33:10.

million deficit. If you take all of those into account we estimate you

:33:11.:33:15.

would need an extra ?3.5 billion next year in order to deliver all of

:33:16.:33:19.

those targets and eliminate the deficit. That would be 3.5 billion

:33:20.:33:23.

on top of what is already planned next year and that would be 3.5

:33:24.:33:28.

billion repeated in the years to come too? Yes, Andrew it is

:33:29.:33:30.

important we should make an important distinction about the NHS

:33:31.:33:36.

versus other public services. When the last government, the last Labour

:33:37.:33:40.

government put extra money into the NHS it clearly said that in return

:33:41.:33:44.

for that it would establish some standards in the NHS Constitution,

:33:45.:33:48.

the 95% A target we have talked about and the 92% elective surgery

:33:49.:33:53.

we have talked about. The trust we represent are very clear, they would

:33:54.:33:56.

want to realise those standards, but you can only do it if you pay for

:33:57.:34:00.

it. The problem is at the moment is we are in the longest and deepest

:34:01.:34:05.

financial squeeze in NHS history. As we have said, funding is only going

:34:06.:34:09.

up by 1% per year but every year just to stand still cost and demand

:34:10.:34:14.

go up by more than 4%. There is clearly a demand for more money. I

:34:15.:34:19.

think people watching this programme will think probably the NHS is going

:34:20.:34:22.

to have to get more money to meet the goals you have been given. I

:34:23.:34:27.

think they would also like to be sure that your Mac running the NHS

:34:28.:34:32.

as efficiently as it could be. We read this morning that trusts have

:34:33.:34:36.

got ?100 million of empty properties that cost 10 million to maintain, 36

:34:37.:34:41.

office blocks are not being used, you have surplus land equivalent to

:34:42.:34:46.

1800 football pitches. Yes, there are a number of things that we know

:34:47.:34:51.

in the NHS we need to do better but let me remind you, Andrew, in the

:34:52.:34:56.

last Parliament we realised ?18 billion worth of cost improvement

:34:57.:34:59.

gains. We are going to realise another 3 billion this year, 0.25

:35:00.:35:06.

billion more than last year so these things are being targeted. But

:35:07.:35:09.

having that surplus land, it is almost certainly in areas where

:35:10.:35:12.

there is a demand for housing. Absolutely. So why not release it

:35:13.:35:19.

for housing? You get the money, the people get their houses and its

:35:20.:35:23.

contribution and a signal that you are running NHS assets as

:35:24.:35:26.

efficiently as you can? Tell me if I'm going to too much detail for

:35:27.:35:31.

you. One of the reasons as to why our trusts are reluctant to realise

:35:32.:35:35.

those land sales is because there is an assumption that the money would

:35:36.:35:39.

go back to the Treasury and wouldn't benefit NHS trusts. You could make a

:35:40.:35:43.

deal, couldn't you? That's part of the conversation going on at the

:35:44.:35:47.

moment. The issue is that we would want to ensure that if we do release

:35:48.:35:52.

land, quite rightly the benefit, particularly in foundation trusts

:35:53.:36:04.

which are, as you will remember, deliberately autonomous

:36:05.:36:05.

organisations, that they should keep the benefit of those land sales.

:36:06.:36:07.

Have you raised that with the government?

:36:08.:36:08.

Yes we have. What did they say? They are in discussions of it. We heard

:36:09.:36:20.

somebody who moved from one job and then to another job and given a big

:36:21.:36:25.

salary and then almost ?200,000 as a payoff. There is a national mood for

:36:26.:36:29.

the NHS to get more money. But before you give anybody any more

:36:30.:36:32.

money you want to be sure that the money you have got already is being

:36:33.:36:36.

properly spent, which for us, is the patient at the end of the day. And

:36:37.:36:41.

yet there seem to be these enormous salaries and payoffs. I've worked in

:36:42.:36:49.

a FTSE 100 on the board of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs and I

:36:50.:36:51.

have worked in large organisations. I can look you completely straight

:36:52.:36:54.

in the eye and tell you that the jobs that our hospital, community,

:36:55.:36:57.

mental health and ambulance chief Executives do are amongst the most

:36:58.:37:00.

complicated leadership roles I have ever seen. It doesn't seem to me to

:37:01.:37:05.

be unreasonable that in order to get the right quality of people we

:37:06.:37:08.

should pay an appropriate salary. The reality is the salaries are paid

:37:09.:37:12.

are not excessive when talking about managing budgets of over ?1 billion

:37:13.:37:17.

a year and talking about managing tens of thousands of staff. There

:37:18.:37:24.

was a doctor working as a locum that earned an extra ?375,000. One of the

:37:25.:37:28.

problems in the NHS is a mismatch between the number of staff we need

:37:29.:37:32.

and the number of staff coming through the pipeline. What is having

:37:33.:37:35.

to happen is if you want to keep a service going you have to use Mackem

:37:36.:37:40.

and agency staff. Even at that cost? You would not want to pay those

:37:41.:37:46.

amounts. But you are. The chief Executives's choice in those areas

:37:47.:37:50.

is giving the service open or employing a locum. I'm sure you

:37:51.:37:55.

could find a locum prepared to work for less than that. What indication,

:37:56.:37:58.

what hopes do you have of getting the extra ?3 billion? The government

:37:59.:38:03.

has been very clear, for the moment it wants to stick to the existing

:38:04.:38:08.

funding settlement it has agreed. So there was nothing in the budget. Can

:38:09.:38:12.

I finish by making one important point. Please, finish. This is the

:38:13.:38:17.

first time the NHS has said before the year has even started that we

:38:18.:38:23.

can't deliver on those standards. We believe, as do most people who work

:38:24.:38:28.

in the NHS, that the NHS is on a gradual slow decline. This is a very

:38:29.:38:32.

important inflection point to Mark, this is the first time before the

:38:33.:38:35.

financial year starts that we say we cannot meet the targets we are being

:38:36.:38:39.

asked to deliver and are in the NHS Constitution. We have run out of

:38:40.:38:43.

time. Chris Hopson, thank you for being with me.

:38:44.:38:44.

It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:45.:38:46.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:38:47.:38:49.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:38:50.:38:52.

First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:38:53.:38:59.

This week, we've got more on Brexit and the course the Mayor wants

:39:00.:39:06.

Then later, a look at the dimensions of our homes.

:39:07.:39:13.

Why the need for new homes in a congested city

:39:14.:39:17.

is getting developers to think, well, small.

:39:18.:39:21.

Here with me thinking big, Stephen Hammond Conservative MP

:39:22.:39:23.

for Wimbledon and Dawn Butler, Labour MP for Brent Central.

:39:24.:39:30.

Welcome to you both. Let's start with the news late this week.

:39:31.:39:36.

Evening Standard has a new editor. There are so many big issues in the

:39:37.:39:40.

world, what people want are authoritative facts, good analysis,

:39:41.:39:44.

great news journalism and it's an important time for good journalism

:39:45.:39:46.

and The Evening Standard is going to provide it.

:39:47.:39:49.

What did you think of that appointment? I am stunned by the

:39:50.:39:55.

appointment, he is not qualified journalist to have such a huge role.

:39:56.:40:00.

When I first heard it, I thought OK, fine, they will be a by-election and

:40:01.:40:03.

then I heard there isn't going to be a by-election so he's going to have

:40:04.:40:07.

three jobs, all well paid, one of them ?13,000 a day, one of them he

:40:08.:40:12.

is not even qualified for. That is privilege in all its forms. I think,

:40:13.:40:16.

is it good for London? Is it good for The Evening Standard? I hope

:40:17.:40:20.

George Osborne will not be biased but he's not a journalist, so how

:40:21.:40:24.

does it work? How can you have a job as an editor of a major newspaper

:40:25.:40:29.

and not be a journalist? How does it work? So, you approve of that!

:40:30.:40:35.

Stephen Hammond, there is life after being Chancellor. Clearly George is

:40:36.:40:38.

a talented individual and it is a surprise to a lot of people but

:40:39.:40:41.

against that we in London need as many people to stand up for us as we

:40:42.:40:45.

can and I think George will insure that happens. People forget he has a

:40:46.:40:49.

big hinterland of interest beyond just politics. He has was been a

:40:50.:40:54.

huge supporter of the arts, and infrastructure, so those sorts of

:40:55.:40:57.

things are the things... But so am I! Those are the key things London

:40:58.:41:01.

need and the key thing is The Evening Standard will do. Both The

:41:02.:41:05.

Evening Standard who wanted a high profile editor have got one, and

:41:06.:41:09.

also George, would recognise they are not going to fall into the

:41:10.:41:13.

stupidity trap of being biased. I think a lot of this is going to be

:41:14.:41:19.

overstated. Presumably if people are expecting The Evening Standard to

:41:20.:41:22.

continue to steer the same impartial and nonpartisan political stance, he

:41:23.:41:30.

will want to surprise, would he? It's not impossible for him to be

:41:31.:41:34.

neutral in his reporting, but I just don't know how he will fit that all

:41:35.:41:39.

in. He's an MP, that takes up a lot of time. If it doesn't then he is

:41:40.:41:42.

doing something wrong. He has another job on top of that and then

:41:43.:41:45.

he is going to be editor of The Evening Standard. How will he fit

:41:46.:41:49.

that in? What he said to the staff on Friday, of course he would put

:41:50.:41:52.

London first, if it's good for London he will say so and if not it

:41:53.:41:56.

would be. We can expect him to be entirely fair with Sadiq Khan, the

:41:57.:42:02.

Labour Mayor of London. It is quite good news for Sadiq Khan because he

:42:03.:42:05.

will want to be over fair and overcompensate. Some people worry it

:42:06.:42:08.

might let Sadiq Khan off the hook of it. I think this is an issue. I

:42:09.:42:14.

understand his comments to the staff on Friday were extremely impressive.

:42:15.:42:17.

I also think, we all know who the political reporters of The Evening

:42:18.:42:21.

Standard are who do a great job and I can't imagine George will get

:42:22.:42:25.

involved in that. So, Dawn Butler, tell us that George Osborne is a

:42:26.:42:28.

good editor but do it in sign language. Erm, he's an editor. This

:42:29.:42:39.

is good, this isn't good. What's bad? Bad is this. The reason I bring

:42:40.:42:46.

that up is of course because of this and you in the House earlier this

:42:47.:42:48.

week. Sorry...the 18th of March marks

:42:49.:42:51.

the 14th anniversary since the UK Government recognised

:42:52.:42:56.

British sign language? Slightly hesitant, you almost had to

:42:57.:43:12.

look down at your notes. I was nervous, really nervous. I hadn't

:43:13.:43:15.

read about how you got involved in it. I learned it 20 years ago

:43:16.:43:18.

because I worked with somebody who was deaf and I thought we needed to

:43:19.:43:25.

be more accommodating and I thought I should learn sign language up to

:43:26.:43:30.

level two. It was great fun. Did you see it? I didn't see it but I think

:43:31.:43:35.

even more people have seen it because of being in the House and it

:43:36.:43:38.

is impressive and the right thing to say. I hope the Government gave her

:43:39.:43:42.

a good response. And a quirk of fate we had you on the programme this

:43:43.:43:45.

week. So, let's move on. The Mayor was grilled by MPs this

:43:46.:43:47.

week on how he's going to steer In City Hall's response

:43:48.:43:51.

to the Government's initial Brexit blueprint, Sadiq Khan said access

:43:52.:43:54.

to the single market was crucial, EU nationals here should

:43:55.:43:56.

have their status clarified immediately, and an 'interim' plan

:43:57.:43:58.

was needed in case no trade and regulatory deals are in place

:43:59.:44:01.

in two years' time at the point The Government's Brexit Bill has

:44:02.:44:05.

passed, clearing the path for the Prime Minister to trigger

:44:06.:44:14.

Article 50 and negotiate Britain's exit from the EU,

:44:15.:44:17.

but here in London many are concerned about what will come

:44:18.:44:19.

of those negotiations. These protesters are angry

:44:20.:44:24.

about the Government's refusal to guarantee the rights of EU

:44:25.:44:26.

nationals to stay. We are talking about people who have

:44:27.:44:32.

contributed to this society, who are married to British people,

:44:33.:44:35.

who have British children, and they should not become pawns

:44:36.:44:40.

in Theresa May's game. One in ten Londoners

:44:41.:44:45.

were born in the EU, and they're particularly prominent

:44:46.:44:52.

in the capital's construction They are at the heart

:44:53.:44:54.

of City Hall's response to the Government's Brexit White Paper,

:44:55.:44:57.

in which the mayor calls for a cast-iron guarantee to EU

:44:58.:45:00.

nationals before negotiations. Other demands include more powers

:45:01.:45:04.

for London over the allocation of work permits in the capital,

:45:05.:45:07.

and continued access to the single market after Brexit,

:45:08.:45:10.

unless and until a new trade agreement with the EU

:45:11.:45:12.

has been reached. That would require what's been

:45:13.:45:19.

called an interim deal, as Sadiq Khan explained

:45:20.:45:22.

to parliament's Brexit Why not err on the side of caution

:45:23.:45:24.

and have an interim deal should it be the case that in less

:45:25.:45:31.

than two years we have got --not reached a deal with the EU,

:45:32.:45:40.

so in two years and one day rather than falling off a cliff edge -

:45:41.:45:44.

by the way a phrase used in the White Paper -

:45:45.:45:47.

going to WTO terms, But will World Trade Organisation

:45:48.:45:49.

rules be as catastrophic I think in the medium term,

:45:50.:45:53.

if anything, under WTO rules the City of London could do better

:45:54.:45:57.

than if it had a trade which might constrain it

:45:58.:46:06.

in some sort of way. If we weren't akin to the EU

:46:07.:46:09.

regulations, we could deregulate, there would be more competitors

:46:10.:46:12.

and we could become more globally It will be two years of negotiations

:46:13.:46:14.

before we know for sure. The point some MPs were making to

:46:15.:46:25.

Sadiq Khan during that session was why talk about, what's the point of

:46:26.:46:31.

creating an interim deal because it weakens your negotiating position,

:46:32.:46:36.

there will be a deal, no problem. It doesn't weaken it. I've always been

:46:37.:46:44.

told that if you fail to plan you plan to fail and Sadiq Khan is

:46:45.:46:47.

saying we need a planned because Theresa May says she won't do a bad

:46:48.:46:53.

deal, no deal is better than a bad deal, well actually no deal is a bad

:46:54.:47:00.

deal. In order for London not collapse it needs to have an interim

:47:01.:47:03.

deal so that it doesn't fall over the cliff edge, so businesses can

:47:04.:47:06.

feel confident in doing business in London and not as they are currently

:47:07.:47:11.

doing, talking about moving out of London. If we move businesses out of

:47:12.:47:18.

London, remember, business is the capital, it is where economy grows.

:47:19.:47:21.

Can you imagine if that was to collapse? Any danger of firms moving

:47:22.:47:29.

out of London? Clearly there is a danger, and that is right Philip

:47:30.:47:33.

Hammond and David Davies have said the same thing, which is that mini

:47:34.:47:38.

to do two things in the first part of negotiations, to guarantee the

:47:39.:47:42.

rights of EU citizens to live here, but what the Home Secretary said

:47:43.:47:47.

about putting that into the repeal Bill their rights guarantees it, and

:47:48.:47:52.

it does although we want to see a reciprocal deal. Secondly, David

:47:53.:47:56.

Davis and Philip Hammond have said we need transitional arrangements

:47:57.:48:00.

because it may be difficult to get a deal within two years and a lot of

:48:01.:48:05.

people think that to be true. As the Prime Minister said, we want to

:48:06.:48:08.

avoid the cliff edge and that's why we want the transitional

:48:09.:48:11.

arrangements in place. The Mayor wants to create the impression... He

:48:12.:48:19.

respects the mandate of the people, but at the same time being critical

:48:20.:48:23.

of the status of EU workers, the lack of an internal deal... Dawn and

:48:24.:48:31.

I both voted the same way which was to Remain but we are not fighting

:48:32.:48:36.

that bottle any more, we are leaving the European Union and the key is

:48:37.:48:39.

how we leave and we want to make sure there is a good deal for

:48:40.:48:43.

London. I've been in a lot of work with financial industries to make

:48:44.:48:46.

sure the negotiating position that would be good for them in terms of

:48:47.:48:51.

access, potentially looking at passports, the Government

:48:52.:48:54.

understands those and I'm pleased to see that will be at the forefront...

:48:55.:48:59.

You're making that case on behalf of firms? I stood up at a big meeting

:49:00.:49:07.

ten days ago to launch Brexit negotiations, I'm doing several

:49:08.:49:09.

things with people behind the scenes. Now the decision has been

:49:10.:49:16.

made, tell me how good the capital will be in three years' time in its

:49:17.:49:22.

financial sector. The key thing now is to stand up and fight fire with

:49:23.:49:31.

fire. What is going to be good? One second, firstly we have to say

:49:32.:49:34.

London is still going to be the best place to do business in all sorts of

:49:35.:49:40.

industries, and we need to stop other countries and companies coming

:49:41.:49:44.

through London trying to weed people away. That is a big focus for the

:49:45.:49:49.

Government and the mayor to talk London up. Then we need to negotiate

:49:50.:49:53.

harder and don't forget there is quite a good reason London is so

:49:54.:49:58.

successful, so powerful, and it's because there are all those

:49:59.:50:01.

infrastructure in what they call the ecosystem around industries in

:50:02.:50:05.

London and it is difficult to replicate that anywhere else. What

:50:06.:50:09.

one is beginning to hear quietly is that certain other places realise

:50:10.:50:14.

that and maybe to benefit to find mutual... How will this make the

:50:15.:50:19.

capital of illegal place in five years? 40% of businesses in the UK

:50:20.:50:26.

are already talk about leaving or moving parts of their organisation

:50:27.:50:31.

outside of the UK. How can they come to that? We have this transitional

:50:32.:50:39.

deal and it kicks in, and after two years if Theresa May hasn't

:50:40.:50:41.

negotiated a deal that is better than what we have now, which is

:50:42.:50:46.

extremely unlikely, then that's when it kicks in. So you are saying this

:50:47.:50:52.

is disastrous. No, I'm saying we need to have a solid plan because

:50:53.:50:56.

you need to have stability in the market. 1 million people from the EU

:50:57.:51:01.

work in London, they need stability, so we are saying the Prime Minister

:51:02.:51:07.

will be negotiating for two years, she will try her best and then see

:51:08.:51:11.

what she can negotiate after that and I think it is a fair point. Fair

:51:12.:51:13.

enough. London is one of the least densely

:51:14.:51:15.

populated metropolises in the world. But the desperate need for more

:51:16.:51:18.

housing may soon change that. At City Hall there are now

:51:19.:51:20.

discussions going on about whether we should be

:51:21.:51:23.

building more densely? Not many major city's public

:51:24.:51:24.

transport systems run through In fact, Botany Bay in north London

:51:25.:51:34.

is something rather special. The people here get

:51:35.:51:38.

to enjoy more open space than in any other

:51:39.:51:41.

part of the capital. Now, this is the least densely

:51:42.:51:43.

populated part, not just of London, but possibly any

:51:44.:51:45.

major city in the world. There's just 123 people living

:51:46.:51:47.

here in every Now, there's a very

:51:48.:51:49.

good reason for that. What that means for the rest

:51:50.:51:52.

of London is that because you can't expand around the capital's

:51:53.:52:02.

perimeter, the pressure everywhere When large sites do become

:52:03.:52:04.

available, like around Battersea Power Station,

:52:05.:52:09.

the pressure is on. More and more homes are being

:52:10.:52:12.

squeezed into what Now, developers of course

:52:13.:52:14.

want to make money but they also are under enormous pressure

:52:15.:52:20.

from the politicians, who are trying to build as many homes as possible

:52:21.:52:23.

to deal The result is that

:52:24.:52:25.

sites like this are going to be built with incredible

:52:26.:52:29.

density of a type that London has Millharbour, just

:52:30.:52:32.

south of Canary Wharf. It's the most densely

:52:33.:52:36.

populated part of the UK It's 9,000 times as dense

:52:37.:52:39.

as the core of Enfield where we started this film,

:52:40.:52:51.

and it's even ten times as dense This, I think, is the pattern

:52:52.:52:54.

of the future and not only If you look in places

:52:55.:52:58.

like Wembley and Harrow even, you begin to see not

:52:59.:53:01.

things quite as dense as this but things that are beginning

:53:02.:53:05.

to look more like this. The downside is that you do end up,

:53:06.:53:08.

they certainly have here, with sometimes, if it's not really

:53:09.:53:13.

beautifully designed, quite gloomy properties that overlook each other

:53:14.:53:15.

and it feels crowded. And for many people,

:53:16.:53:19.

obviously not the people who live here, but for many people this

:53:20.:53:22.

area would probably Certainly compared with much

:53:23.:53:25.

of the rest of London, In fact, an amazing 47%

:53:26.:53:31.

of London is green open space - parks, woodlands,

:53:32.:53:37.

back gardens, the lot. The sort of properties

:53:38.:53:39.

that people like living in and stay living

:53:40.:53:45.

in through all the phases

:53:46.:53:48.

of the family tends It's got a front door,

:53:49.:53:53.

it's got a street, it's got a little The Victorian houses,

:53:54.:53:57.

very high-density, but they are flexible, they can be adjusted,

:53:58.:54:06.

they can become offices, they can But it can be used in all

:54:07.:54:09.

sorts of different ways. But houses aren't

:54:10.:54:13.

what's getting built. Another vision altogether

:54:14.:54:14.

is being put into action They're making hundreds of flats

:54:15.:54:16.

sized just 400 square feet and Not everybody, they say,

:54:17.:54:21.

is after a house and a garden. That is not the view

:54:22.:54:29.

of people in their 20s, their 30s, 40s, who are absolutely

:54:30.:54:36.

critical to the London economy and they want

:54:37.:54:40.

a different kind of housing. They have fewer possessions,

:54:41.:54:42.

they want to get into the centre of town faster,

:54:43.:54:44.

they want to have buildings that So I think actually

:54:45.:54:47.

the garden may be for a But whatever your opinion,

:54:48.:54:50.

London is getting I'm joined by Conservative assembly

:54:51.:54:53.

member Andrew Boff, who is chair of the London Assembly Housing

:54:54.:55:01.

Committee. You are scrutinising what the mayor

:55:02.:55:11.

is doing here, is that the future? Is it inevitable? It is certainly

:55:12.:55:15.

not inevitable, and I think you will find the general consensus of all

:55:16.:55:19.

parties that sometimes we are letting developers get away with

:55:20.:55:22.

things and actually the kind of housing that Londoners actually

:55:23.:55:28.

want, as was indicated in the film if you ask them, most Londoners want

:55:29.:55:32.

to live in a terraced house with a door that opens onto the street and

:55:33.:55:38.

a garden at the back. Curiously enough, if it is three or four

:55:39.:55:43.

stories, that's a very dense form of housing, as dense as trying to build

:55:44.:55:49.

up and up. Yes, more dense than people imagine but not dense enough

:55:50.:55:54.

to answer the housing needs of the capital. Nothing will be dense

:55:55.:55:58.

enough. In London we are stuck with a political boundary that was based

:55:59.:56:02.

upon the travel to work area of the 1950s. It doesn't represent the

:56:03.:56:06.

economic area that covers a lot of the south-east. We have been arguing

:56:07.:56:13.

for a long time that the Government needs to ramp up the idea of garden

:56:14.:56:17.

cities in the south-east to solve the problems of the south-east. It

:56:18.:56:23.

is not just London's housing problems, in the south-east outside

:56:24.:56:26.

of London they equally have problems. We have to start building

:56:27.:56:30.

again and giving the opportunities for people to develop. What do you

:56:31.:56:34.

want to see in terms of the building being done in London to meet most of

:56:35.:56:38.

the population needs in both inner and outer London? Clearly the right

:56:39.:56:46.

kinds of buildings are not being built and we saw in both Harrow and

:56:47.:56:50.

Haringey where the mayor granted permission, in fact he called in two

:56:51.:56:56.

applications, one for a 21 story tower block, another for a 17 story

:56:57.:57:01.

tower block, where parties of all colours were against those

:57:02.:57:05.

applications, the mayor called them in and granted them. This is another

:57:06.:57:12.

Sadiq promise he has dropped because he said during the election campaign

:57:13.:57:16.

tall buildings would not be granted permission if they weren't in

:57:17.:57:20.

character of the area, and these are clearly not. Do we accept we have to

:57:21.:57:26.

go with that dense, small, having to think about options like this so

:57:27.:57:31.

grave is the problem? I think we have to solve the housing crisis and

:57:32.:57:36.

to do that means you have to build up so you can have more capacity. I

:57:37.:57:42.

think the style of the property is important, the size is important,

:57:43.:57:46.

but I also think fundamentally it is the cost because there's no point in

:57:47.:57:50.

building these tiny little box places for people to live in and

:57:51.:57:57.

they are paying as much as they would for a house. Wembley was

:57:58.:58:01.

mentioned in the clip, there's loads of high rise buildings going up, and

:58:02.:58:05.

the infrastructure as well, that's what concerns me, that there has to

:58:06.:58:10.

be the infrastructure to support people living there. It is not just

:58:11.:58:16.

travel, it is doctors and shops... Should we be building more high and

:58:17.:58:22.

dense in races like Wimbledon? They need to take their fair share?

:58:23.:58:28.

Everybody needs to think about it in their area but it doesn't need to be

:58:29.:58:33.

skyscrapers, as Andrew said. There's a big regeneration going on in my

:58:34.:58:38.

area around South Wimbledon, and the maximum height, there is a mixture

:58:39.:58:43.

of all sorts of things but up to seven story mansion blocks that will

:58:44.:58:47.

fit in well with the local area. Also a number of town houses. The

:58:48.:58:53.

other key thing in London is that we need to be building more and part of

:58:54.:58:57.

that is we need to get the London land commission working on bringing

:58:58.:59:01.

more of that public land back, and getting more councils using power

:59:02.:59:05.

with developers to use permission in principle so we get these things

:59:06.:59:09.

built. The other great thing that happened in the Autumn Statement was

:59:10.:59:15.

allowing housing association is to build ten year free. 30 seconds

:59:16.:59:21.

left, wrap-up, in a few years' time, where should we be? It sounds to me

:59:22.:59:25.

you might want everything but we have got to house a lot of people

:59:26.:59:31.

here. There is in the room. Some of the social problems in London are

:59:32.:59:36.

hidden, one of the biggest problems in Dawn's constituency is

:59:37.:59:41.

overcrowding in properties. There are over 300,000 young people being

:59:42.:59:45.

brought up in overcrowded households, you do not solve the

:59:46.:59:49.

issue by forcing them into tower blocks. One of the most astounding

:59:50.:59:53.

things that came out of the interrogation of the mayor's plan is

:59:54.:59:57.

that he has done no research into the health outcomes of different

:59:58.:00:01.

types of building and they are profound. And you will be making

:00:02.:00:05.

sure he does in due course. Thank you very much indeed.

:00:06.:00:07.

And now for the rest of the political news in 60 seconds.

:00:08.:00:11.

The Public Accounts Committee have said too much money is being paid

:00:12.:00:15.

for the land and buildings needed for new

:00:16.:00:17.

The chair, Meg Hillier MP, said in the constituency

:00:18.:00:24.

of Hackney South and Shoreditch civil servants have purchased

:00:25.:00:27.

a former police station for ?7.6 million, even though it had

:00:28.:00:29.

been valued at 3 million six months previously.

:00:30.:00:34.

A coroner has demanded an urgent investigation into the safety

:00:35.:00:37.

of cycle lane blue paint after linking two deaths

:00:38.:00:39.

Transport for London has been warned there is a risk that future deaths

:00:40.:00:47.

will occur if it does not take action over the low grip surfaces.

:00:48.:00:52.

A deal aimed at ending dispute between Southern Rail and the Aslef

:00:53.:00:55.

union over driver-only trains has been agreed.

:00:56.:00:59.

Govia Thameslink rail said both sides had secured a recommended deal

:01:00.:01:02.

The result of the vote will be announced on the 3rd of April.

:01:03.:01:19.

Stephen Hammond can answer this one because of the short time available.

:01:20.:01:25.

Free Schools cost an awful lot for the space, don't they? There is

:01:26.:01:31.

difficulty finding space for Free Schools and we are finding that in

:01:32.:01:34.

my constituency. That is staggering and we need to look carefully at why

:01:35.:01:39.

that scale was overpaid. There will be some value coming through at the

:01:40.:01:42.

end. We also need to look at the definition and value of public

:01:43.:01:45.

buildings and the fact they could be taken out of non-use into use much

:01:46.:01:49.

more quickly we need to look at the pricing of these buildings. Thank

:01:50.:01:55.

you both. Say goodbye. Goodbye. Back to you.

:01:56.:02:00.

So, can George Osborne stay on as a member of Parliament

:02:01.:02:03.

Will Conservative backbenchers force a Government re-think

:02:04.:02:07.

And is Theresa May about to cap gas and electricity prices?

:02:08.:02:11.

Whose idea was that first of all? They are all questions for the Week

:02:12.:02:20.

Ahead to. Let's start with the story that is

:02:21.:02:30.

too much fun to miss, on Friday it was announced the former Chancellor

:02:31.:02:34.

would be the new editor of London's Evening Standard newspaper, a

:02:35.:02:39.

position he will take up in mid-May on a salary of ?200,000 for four

:02:40.:02:42.

days a week. But Mr Osborne has said he will not

:02:43.:02:46.

be stepping down as MP for Tatton in Cheshire,

:02:47.:02:49.

a job he's held since 2001, Alongside these duties,

:02:50.:02:52.

he's also chairman of While being committed to one day

:02:53.:02:55.

a week at Black Rock, an American asset management firm -

:02:56.:03:01.

a part-time role that earns him Then he's polishing his academic

:03:02.:03:04.

credentials, as a fellow at the McCain Institute,

:03:05.:03:09.

an American thinktank, And finally as a member

:03:10.:03:11.

of the Washington Speaker's Bureau, he also earns his keep

:03:12.:03:19.

as an after-dinner speaker, banking around ?750,000

:03:20.:03:25.

since last summer. So there you go. Nice little earners

:03:26.:03:37.

if you can get them. The problem, though, is he has put second jobs on

:03:38.:03:41.

the agenda and lots of his fellow MPs are not happy because they have

:03:42.:03:44.

got second jobs but not making that kind of money. No, and a lot of MPs

:03:45.:03:50.

on both sides actually are unhappy about it exactly for those reasons.

:03:51.:03:54.

I find it a very interesting appointment. We have got these

:03:55.:03:58.

people on the centre and centre right of politics who have been used

:03:59.:04:03.

to power since 1997, they have been on the airwaves today, Tony Blair,

:04:04.:04:08.

Nick Clegg, George Osborne, and they are all seeking other platforms now

:04:09.:04:12.

because power has moved elsewhere. So Tony Blair is setting up this new

:04:13.:04:16.

foundation, Nick Clegg refused to condemn George Osborne, Tony Blair

:04:17.:04:20.

praised the appointment. They are all searching for new platforms.

:04:21.:04:26.

They might have overestimated the degree to which this will be a huge

:04:27.:04:30.

influential platform. The standard was very pro-Tory at the 2015

:04:31.:04:36.

election but London voted Labour, it was pro-Zac Goldsmith but they

:04:37.:04:40.

elected Sadiq Khan. It might be overestimating the degree to which

:04:41.:04:44.

this is a hugely influential paper. But I can see why it attracts him as

:04:45.:04:49.

a platform when all these platforms have disappeared, eg power and

:04:50.:04:55.

government. All of these people who used to be in power are quietly

:04:56.:05:00.

getting together again, Mr Blair on television this morning, George

:05:01.:05:04.

Osborne not only filling his bank account but now in charge of

:05:05.:05:09.

London's most important newspaper, Nick Clegg out today not saying

:05:10.:05:13.

Brexit was a done deal, waiting to see what happens, even John Major

:05:14.:05:20.

was wheeled out again today in the Mail on Sunday. They are all playing

:05:21.:05:23.

for position. I half expect David Cameron to turn up as features

:05:24.:05:28.

editor on The Evening Standard. Brexit and breakfast! With Mr Clegg,

:05:29.:05:35.

did he not? I do not think this is sustainable for George Osborne, I

:05:36.:05:38.

worked at The Evening Standard and I was there for three years, I know

:05:39.:05:42.

what the hours are like for a humble journalist, never mind the editor.

:05:43.:05:46.

If he thinks he can get at 4am everyday to be in the offices at 5am

:05:47.:05:50.

to oversee the splash, manage everything in the way and edited

:05:51.:05:54.

should he is in cloud cuckoo land. What this says to people is there is

:05:55.:05:59.

a kind of feel of soft corruption about public life here, where you

:06:00.:06:03.

see what you can get away with. He thinks he can brazen this out and

:06:04.:06:06.

maybe he can but what kind of message does that send to people

:06:07.:06:09.

about how seriously people take the role of being an MP? He must have

:06:10.:06:15.

known. He applied for the job. The Russian owner didn't approach him,

:06:16.:06:20.

he approached Lebedev, the proprietor, for it. He must have

:06:21.:06:26.

calculated there would be some kickback. I wonder if he realised

:06:27.:06:29.

there would be quite the kickback there has been. I think that's

:06:30.:06:33.

probably right. This hasn't finished yet, by the way, this will go on and

:06:34.:06:37.

on. How on earth does George Osborne cover the budget in the autumn? Big

:06:38.:06:43.

budget, lots of physical changes and tax rises to deal with the messages

:06:44.:06:47.

out of this week. You can see already, Theresa May budget crashes.

:06:48.:06:53.

It could be worse. She's useless! Or, worse than that, me, brilliant

:06:54.:06:58.

budget, terrible newspaper, I've never buying it again. He has

:06:59.:07:04.

hoisted his own petard. He has not bought it properly through. It's a

:07:05.:07:07.

something interesting about his own future calculations, if he wants to

:07:08.:07:14.

stay on as an MP in 2020 and be Prime Minister as he has or was

:07:15.:07:17.

wanted to be he has got to find a new seat. How do you go into an

:07:18.:07:21.

association and say I should be an MP, I can do it for at least four

:07:22.:07:26.

hours Purdy after editing The Evening Standard, making a big

:07:27.:07:29.

speech and telling Black Rock how to make a big profit. The feature pages

:07:30.:07:36.

have to be approved for the next day and feature pages are aware the

:07:37.:07:41.

editor gets to make their mark. The news is the news. The feature is

:07:42.:07:46.

what concerns you, what he is in your bonnet. That defines the

:07:47.:07:49.

newspaper, doesn't it? It is not over yet. Too much 101 on

:07:50.:07:59.

newspapers. And Haatheq at. School funding, the consultation

:08:00.:08:02.

period ends, it has been a tricky one for the government, some areas

:08:03.:08:10.

losing. I guess we are seeing this through the prism of the National

:08:11.:08:14.

Insurance contributions now, it is a small majority, if Tory MPs are

:08:15.:08:20.

unhappy she may not get her way. Talking to backbench MPs who are

:08:21.:08:25.

unhappy the feeling is it is not going to go ahead in the proposed

:08:26.:08:30.

form that the consultation has been on. No 10 will definitely have to

:08:31.:08:34.

move on this. It is unclear whether they will scrap it completely, or

:08:35.:08:38.

will they bring in something possibly like a base level, floor

:08:39.:08:43.

level pupil funding below which you can't go? You would then still need

:08:44.:08:48.

to find some extra money. So there are no easy solutions on this but

:08:49.:08:52.

what is clear it is not going to go ahead in its current form. Parents

:08:53.:08:55.

have been getting letters across the country in England about what this

:08:56.:09:00.

will mean for teachers and so on in certain schools. It's not just a

:09:01.:09:04.

matter of the education Department, the schools, or the teachers and

:09:05.:09:08.

Tory backbenchers. Parents are being mobilised on this. The point of the

:09:09.:09:13.

new funding formula is to allocate more money to the more

:09:14.:09:17.

disadvantaged. That means schools in the more prosperous suburbs are

:09:18.:09:21.

going to lose money. Budget cuts on schools which are already

:09:22.:09:25.

struggling. It comes down again to be huge problem, the ever smaller

:09:26.:09:30.

fiscal pool, ever greater demands, NHS, social care, education as well,

:09:31.:09:35.

adding to Theresa May and Phillip Hammond's enormous problems. Here is

:09:36.:09:39.

an interesting issue, Steve. There was a labour Leader of the

:09:40.:09:44.

Opposition that once suggested perhaps given these huge energy

:09:45.:09:48.

companies which seemed to be good at passing on energy rises but not so

:09:49.:09:52.

good at cutting energy prices when it falls, that perhaps we should put

:09:53.:09:56.

a cap on them until at least we study how the market goes. This was

:09:57.:10:01.

obviously ludicrous Marxism and quite rightly knocked down by the

:10:02.:10:05.

Conservatives, except that Mrs May is now talking about putting a cap

:10:06.:10:10.

on energy prices. Yes, I think if it wasn't for Brexit we would focus

:10:11.:10:13.

much more on Theresa May's Ed Miliband streak. Whether this

:10:14.:10:18.

translates into policies, let us see. That bit we don't know. That

:10:19.:10:23.

bit we don't know but in terms of argument her speech to the

:10:24.:10:26.

Conservative conference on Friday was about the third or fourth time

:10:27.:10:30.

where she said as part of the speech, let's focus on the good that

:10:31.:10:35.

government can do, including in intervening in markets, exactly in

:10:36.:10:40.

the way that he used to argue. As you say, we await the policy

:10:41.:10:43.

consequences of that. She seems more cautious in terms of policy in

:10:44.:10:47.

fermentation. But in terms of the industrial strategy, in terms of

:10:48.:10:52.

implying intervention in certain markets, there is a kind of

:10:53.:10:56.

Milibandesque streak. And there comes a time when she has to walk

:10:57.:11:00.

the walk as well as talk the talk. They talk a lot about the just about

:11:01.:11:06.

managing, just about managing face rising food bills because of the

:11:07.:11:10.

lower pound and face rising fuel bills because of the rise in oil and

:11:11.:11:16.

in other commodities. One of the two things you could do to help the just

:11:17.:11:21.

about managing is to cut their food bills and the second would be to cut

:11:22.:11:24.

their fuel bills. At some stage she has to do something for them. We

:11:25.:11:28.

don't know what is going to happen to food bills under Brexit, that

:11:29.:11:32.

could become a really serious issue. They could abolish tariffs. There

:11:33.:11:36.

has been a lot of talking the talk and big announcements put out and

:11:37.:11:39.

not following through so I agree with you on that but lots of Tory

:11:40.:11:41.

MPs will have a big problem on this and the principle of

:11:42.:11:56.

continually talking about interfering in markets, whether it's

:11:57.:11:59.

on executive pay, whether it is on energy, at a time when Britain needs

:12:00.:12:01.

to send out this message to the world in their view, in the view of

:12:02.:12:04.

Brexit supporting MPs, that we are open for business and the government

:12:05.:12:07.

is not about poking around and doing this kind of thing. Of course, you

:12:08.:12:10.

could argue there is not a problem in the market for energy, it is a

:12:11.:12:12.

malfunctioning market that doesn't operate like a free market should,

:12:13.:12:15.

so that provides even Adam Smith, the inventor of market economics

:12:16.:12:19.

would have said on that basis you should intervene. I was in Cardiff

:12:20.:12:22.

to listen to Theresa May's latest explanation for doing this. By the

:12:23.:12:26.

way, we've been waiting nine months, this was one of her big ideas. You

:12:27.:12:31.

are right, let's see a bit of the meat, please. My newspaper has been

:12:32.:12:35.

calling for some pretty hefty government action on this for quite

:12:36.:12:38.

some time. For the just about managings? Yes and specifically to

:12:39.:12:44.

sort out an energy market dominated by the big six, which is manifestly

:12:45.:12:48.

ripping people off left, right and centre. Theresa May's argument in

:12:49.:12:51.

Cardiff on Friday morning which, by the way, went down like a proverbial

:12:52.:12:58.

windbreak at the proverbial funeral because Tories... You know what I

:12:59.:13:01.

mean Andrew, the big hand coming into from the state telling

:13:02.:13:04.

businesses what to do. They went very quiet indeed. They were having

:13:05.:13:08.

saving the union and Nato but there was no clapping for that. The point

:13:09.:13:13.

being, this is what she needs to do to prove her assault, to prove those

:13:14.:13:16.

first words on the steps of Downing Street. We await to see the actions

:13:17.:13:21.

taken. On that unusual agreement we will

:13:22.:13:28.

leave it there. The Daily Politics will be back on BBC Two tomorrow at

:13:29.:13:30.

noon and everyday during the week. And I'll be here on BBC One

:13:31.:13:32.

next Sunday at 11am. Remember, if it's Sunday,

:13:33.:13:35.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:36.:13:37.

Andrew Neil and Tim Donovan with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

As the NHS in England warns of a severe financial crisis, Andrew talks to Chris Hopson, head of NHS Providers. He is also joined by former Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg MP and Labour Party campaign and elections chair Andrew Gwynne MP.

On the political panel are the Sun's Tom Newton Dunn and journalists Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.