12/02/2017 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


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12/02/2017

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss are joined by Baroness Smith and Oliver Letwin. The political panellists are Janan Ganesh, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Steve Richards.


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Commons Speaker John Bercow is accused of compromising his

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impartiality by revealing he voted Remain in last year's EU referendum.

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The EU Withdrawal Bill clears its first Parliamentary hurdle.

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But will the House of Lords be quite so accommodating?

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Labour's Leader in the Lords joins us live.

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And we report from Stoke-on-Trent ahead of a crucial by-election

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later this month, where Ukip is looking to give

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We're in Cumbria looking ahead to the are crucial,

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The house service and nuclear power, two issues that

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And with me a political panel who frequently like to compromise

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Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Janan Ganesh.

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I'll be trying to keep them in order during the course of the programme.

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So, Commons Speaker John Bercow has insisted his ability

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to act impartially is not damaged by reports that he voted to Remain

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The Sunday Telegraph reveals that Speaker Bercow revealed his views

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in front of an audience of students at Reading University

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This may not be popular with some people in this audience -

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I thought it was better to stay in the European Union than not,

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partly for economic reason, being part of a big trade bloc,

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and partly because I think we're in a world of power blocs,

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and I think for all the weaknesses and deficiencies

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of the European Union, it is better to be part of that big

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Speaker Bercow speaking at Reading University earlier this month. Does

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he not care is this I get that impression, he knows perfectly well,

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it states he has to be particularly -- Parliamentary neural. Whether

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there are going to be enough votes to force him out, the question, the

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last speaker wept out with the 20 vote against him. You yes to have

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the command of the support across the House. There is a Deputy

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Speaker, waiting, who would be superb. I think even the people who

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pretend to support Macis have had enough -- Speaker Bercow have had

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enough of his ways. The reason I ask whether he care, he didn't just tell

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the students that he voted to Remain, he then gave them a running

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commentary on all the issues that will be part of the Brexit

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negotiations, workers' rights, immigration, trade policy, everyone

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maternity leave got a hat tip from him. He would be a very well

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prepared Brexit minister if attendance needs a colleague --

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David Davis needs a colleague. I don't think this story makes his

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position untenable, what does is the wired pattern of behaviour of

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excessive candour on his political views, going back years, this is a

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guy who when the Queen visited Parliament described her as theical

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lied scope Queen. He had a running argument with David Cameron. We know

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his views on Brexit, we know his views on Donald Trump. . He has

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given interviews, none of the views are illegitimate but the candour

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which they are expressed with is scrupulous. Given Lyndsay Hoyle is a

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class accuse. He is the Deputy Speaker. And a fairly ready

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replacement, whether there is more of a movement to say, maybe not

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force Bercow out but acknowledge he has had a few years in the job and

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the question of successor ship comes into play. Has he concluded he is

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untouchable? What I can definitely say, is that he is determined to

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fight this one out, and not go of his own volition, so if he goes he

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will have to be forced out. He wants to stay. Which will be tough. It

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will be tough. Likely as things stand. I would say this, I speak to

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someone who likes the way he has brought the House of Commons to

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life, held ministers to account, forced them into explain thing,

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whenever there is a topical issue you know it will be in the House of

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Commons. He has changed that. He has. Time has been courageous, Ied a

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mire the way he has been a speaker. I would say this, during the

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referendum campaign, he asked me Nick Clegg, and Peter Hitchens to

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debate Brexit if his constituency. It was a packed out meeting. He

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chaired it. I said don't you want to join in? He didn't. He showed no

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desire to join in, he was impartial. He goes out to universities and kind

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of demyth GCSEs Parliament by speaking to them in a way, he

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doesn't gets credit for it and stays on after and drinks with them.

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Sometimes he, you know, it is clearly a mistake to have gone into

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his views retrospectively on that referendum campaign, I don't think

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that, did he try and stop Article 50 from being triggered in the House of

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Commons? That would be a scandal. Even that would be beyond him.

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Briefly, yes or no, could you imagine Betty Boothroyd behaving

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like that? Not at all. None of the recent speakers I could imagine

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doing that. It is good he is different.

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The bill that will allow the government to trigger Article 50

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and begin Brexit negotiations was voted through

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Many MPs were in a difficult position - unsure whether to vote

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with their conscience, their constituency,

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Europe, once such a divisive issue for the Conservatives,

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is now causing major divisions inside the Labour Party.

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So, let's have a look what happened in a bit more detail:

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Thanks to academic research carried out since the referendum,

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we now have estimates of how each individual constituency voted.

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It's thought that 410 constituencies voted Leave.

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On Wednesday night, the EU Notification of Withdrawal Bill

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was voted through by the House of Commons.

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The bill left the Labour Party divided.

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Jeremy Corbyn told his MPs to respect the result

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of the referendum and vote for the government's bill -

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But 52 Labour MPs defied Mr Corbyn's thee-line whip

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That's about a fifth of the Parliamentary Labour Party.

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Of those 52 Labour MPs who voted against the bill,

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the majority, 45 of them, represent seats that voted Remain.

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However, seven Labour MPs voted against the Article 50 Bill,

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even though their constituents voted Leave in the referendum.

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The Conservative Party were much more united.

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The vast majority of Tory MPs, 320 of them, voted for the bill.

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Just one Conservative MP, Ken Clarke, voted against it.

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His constituency, Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire, voted Remain.

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The bill will now go to the House of Lords -

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peers will start debating it on Monday the 20th of February.

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Joining me now is Matthew Goodwin, politics professor at

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He's got a book out next month called

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Brexit: Why Britain Voted To Leave The European Union.

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Welcome to the programme. Has Brexit, how you voted in the

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referendum and your continuing attitudes toward it, is that now

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becoming the new dividing line in British politics? I think it

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certainly is contributing to a new dividing line, in western politics

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more generally, we know over the last ten years, that the old left

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and right division has been making way for a new division, between

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essentially social liberals and Conservative, and Brexit was a, an

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incident a moment that really reflected that new dividing line, so

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it wasn't just the case that Brexit has cut across Labour's base, it is

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that dividing line, that deeper division is cutting across social

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democracies more generally. Is there a possibility, no higher than that,

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that it will reShane our party politics? I think it is too early to

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know whether this is a fundamental long-term realignment. If we look at

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what is happening in local by-election, what is happening at

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by-elections, pictures a bit mixed but if you look at how some of the

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Labour vote is responding, I think that potentially reflects the

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possibility of a terminal decline for the Labour Party, it is going to

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be incredibly difficult for Labour to win these voters back, these are

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traditional working class, socially Conservative voters who are leaving

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the party, don't forget, since the 1997 general election. It is not

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just because of the referendum. If that was the case, Labour would

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become more a party of the Metropolitan areas, and less of a

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party outside of these area, is that what you are saying? What we are S

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seeing across the west can social democracy that retrenchment into the

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cosmopolitan, Metropolitan city area, university towns, you can

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seeing in many European states populist right parties filling the

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traditional socialist area, why are they doing that? Because they are

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offering two message, economic and cultural protectionism. Social

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Democrats are clinging to that economic protectionism but not

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saying much about migration and multiculturalism and that sort of

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stuff. Are there deeper forces at work than Jeremy Corbyn? He often

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gets the blame for what is happening to the Labour Party now, but if you

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look the way the Greek socialist party has been wiped out. The German

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Social Democrats are in trouble. The Italian socialist party has lost a

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referendum. The French socialist are coming close to being wiped out on

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April 23rd, Labour's problems, are part of a much wider problem of

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social democracy S Jeremy Corbyn is a surface problem, what I mean by

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that is you could replace him tosh with another leader, they would

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still have this fundamental tension within the electorate. They are

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trying to appeal to two differenter reconcilable groups of voters who

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think differently about the key issues of the day. It is very

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difficult for any centre left party now to assemble the kinds of

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coalitionses we saw in the '90s with Clinton and Blair and Schroeder.

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Those days are gone. Does that explain why it is now Labour, rather

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than the Conservatives, historically the party divided over the European

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Union, does all of that help to explain why its Labour that now

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seems, disunited over the EU? I think so, I think also that the

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issue of Brexit, and the EU, is so immatly wrapped up with that issue

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of immigration, if you look at who has been abandoned Labour since 2015

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or the late 90s, the one thing those voters share is a rejection of the

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so-called liberal consensus on EU membership and mass immigration. It

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is difficult for any Labour lead eer co-bin or Clive Lewis on Dan Jarvis,

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to bring those voters back unless they are going to move on that

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cultural terrain. If they are not, they may not go to Ukip, they might

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go to somewhere more difficult for Labour which is political apathy.

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Thank you for that. Attention now shifts to the House

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of Lords where peers will begin scrutinising the EU Withdrawal Bill

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in just over a week. Brexit Secretary David Davis urged

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the Lords "to do its patriotic duty" and resist the urge to tinker

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with the legislation. Former minister Oliver Letwin

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went one further - mooting the possibility

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of the abolition of the Lords if it sought to frustrate

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the bill in any way. Here he is posing the question

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in the Commons on Thursday. Would he find time, in government

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time for a debate, should the other place seek to delay beyond the end

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of March the passage of our accession to Article 50, for this

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House to discuss the possibility of either the abolition or full-scale

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reform of the other place? And Oliver Letwin joins

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me now from Dorset. Welcome back to the programme Mr Let

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win. Before we come on to the Lord's, can I get your thoughts on a

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matter that has been making the news this morning and John Bercow's

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remarks about being a remain voter an giving something of a running

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commentary on various Brexit issues, has he sqloefr stepped the mark as

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speaker? -- overstepped the mark. I think this is slightly a fuss about

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nothing. Every person who thinks about politics will have had some

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opinion about great matters like Brexit, and I really don't see any

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particular reason why his opinion shouldn't be known after the fact.

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I, I was there throughout the five days of the Brexit debate, and I

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have to say, I thought he was pretty scrupulously fair in the way he

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handled the House, so, I, I don't really share the view that there is

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some terrible thing that has been revealed this weekend. Let me come

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on to what we are here to talk about, which is the Lords. Why have

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you raised the threat of the abolition of the Lord for doing its

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job of scrutinising what is coming out the Commons? Well, you know,

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Andrew, this question of the job of the House of Lords and scrutiny, has

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to be looked at carefully. There are all sorts of bills that come out the

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House of Commons which are detailed things that relate to, finance, and

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expenditure, and the criminal law, and all that sort of thing, and all

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of that, I admire the work that the House of Lords does, as you say

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scrutinising and we shouldn't use that word loosely, it means looking

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carefully at the detail, line by line of complicated legislation,

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hundreds of Paps in some cases, and spotting, using the considerable

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expertise many, not all be many of the peers have, in any given field,

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to identify things where the Commons has got it wrong in the sense that

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the legislation wouldn't achieve what the Government of the day is

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seeking to make it achieve. That is a serious proper role for an Upper

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House and the House of Lords performs it pretty

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Now this is a very different case. This is a two clause bill. The first

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clause which is the operative clause says the Prime Minister should go

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ahead and sign... I understand all that. We haven't got that much time,

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this is becoming a monologue. There is nothing to scrutinise, Andrew.

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There were plenty of amendments put before the Commons, none of them got

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through, it is true. There are eight Labour amendments in the Lords, are

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you resigned to this bill coming back to the Commons with amendments?

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No, it should not come back with amendments. There were hundreds of

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amendments literally put down in the House of Commons, they were all

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drunk. They were all trying one way or another to derail the process.

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This is a binary issue, should Theresa May sign the withdrawal or

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not? What should the Commons do? The Commons has now voted in favour of

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it. Node do should tolerate and unelected chamber forcing the

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British people... The people voted in a referendum and the Commons

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voted. The matter is now signed and sealed and should not be derailed by

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the House of Lords. On Labour amendment wants confirmation that

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when it is done, the potential Brexit agreement will be put before

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parliament before any vote in the European Parliament, that has been

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an agreed principle, what is wrong with that amendments? The government

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has already agreed there will be a vote, but actually, what the

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amendments were seeking was to give the Commons a further vote on

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whether we actually leave or not. That is already decided. Neither the

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House of Lords nor anybody else has a right in my view, despite the fact

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I was a remain, to what the will of the British people. Nobody should

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think an unelected chamber should now try to change the course of

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British history by asserting amendments in a very effective on

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clause bill which says go ahead and trigger Article 50. Are you

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concerned that amendments by the Lords which would then have to go

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back to the Commons for consideration, are you concerned

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that could derail or delay the Prime Minister's timetable for Article 50?

:18:43.:18:46.

Yes, exactly. That would be the result of a prolonged bout of

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ping-pong between the two houses, or much worse, if the House of Lords

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failed to give way and the Parliament act had to be used. It

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would really be intolerable. It is not good for our country. Those of

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us who voted remain would prefer for that not to happen. The whole

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country -- it is important for the whole country that this happens in a

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rapid way and allowing the government free rein to negotiate,

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that is surely in all our advantages? Deed think any efforts

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to abolish the House of Lords, an issue you have raised, does that

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make it easier because your friend David Cameron stuffed the upper

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chamber with donors, lapdogs and lingerie designers? I was among

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those who advocated for many years wholesale reform of the House of

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Lords, to turn it into a serious elected second chamber. I think we

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should have an upper house which commands legitimacy. This is a

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second issue. Here we have not got such a House and it seems to be very

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clear that it should not seek to derail on delay the action which has

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been mandated by the referendum, agreed by the House of Commons, and

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what we want to see now is a smooth orderly effect for this bill, so it

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becomes law and Theresa May can go ahead and negotiate on our behalf.

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One more question on the process, if the Lords to amend the bill and it

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goes back to the Commons and the Commons sends these amendments back

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again, take them out, how long could this ping-pong between the two

:20:26.:20:32.

chambers go on in your experience? It is a very, very interesting and

:20:33.:20:37.

complicated question with the clerks of the two ends of the Palace of

:20:38.:20:41.

Westminster not always agreeing about this. But through certain

:20:42.:20:46.

machinations of slightly changing amendments as they go, in my

:20:47.:20:50.

experience this could carry on for an awful long time if clever people,

:20:51.:20:53.

and there are plenty of clever people in the House of Lords, want

:20:54.:20:56.

to do that and that is precisely why I think we should not tolerate it.

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Oliver Letwin, thank you for joining us from Dorset.

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Joining me now is Labour's Leader in the House of Lords, Angela Smith.

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The Commons passed this bill without any amendments... There were

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changes, the government did concede a couple of points. But the

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amendments did not go through. Does that put pressure on the Lords to do

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the same? I think the Lords always feels under pressure to do the right

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thing. When I heard Oliver Letwin, I did not know whether to laugh or

:21:29.:21:34.

cry. We will not frustrate, we will not wreck, we will not sabotage. We

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will do what David Davis said was our patriotic duty. We will

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scrutinise the bill. We have at amendments from the Labour Party. We

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will look at those. It depends on the government response if we vote

:21:49.:21:51.

on those. There could be amendments asking the Commons to look again.

:21:52.:21:55.

That is normally what we do. It is not the wrong thing to do. But if

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you do this and make amendments, it then goes back to the Commons. If

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the Commons rejects the Lords' amendments, what do you think will

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happen? I do not see any extended ping-pong at all. It is perfectly

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legitimate. We are not talking about the outcome of negotiations, we are

:22:17.:22:20.

talking about the process. The process of engaging with Parliament

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and reporting to Parliament. It would be totally responsible for

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Parliament to say, off you go, Theresa May, have two years of

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negotiation and come back and talk to us at the end. The has to be a

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process where the government can use the expertise of parliament to get

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this right. But if you do put in some amendments, it has to go back

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to the Commons, they may well say they don't want those amendments and

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it may go back to the Lords, could that at the very least delay the

:22:49.:22:53.

Prime Minister's Brexit timetable? I don't think so. She said the end of

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March. Time has been built in for all the normal processes. I think

:22:59.:23:02.

Oliver Letwin and others are getting a bit overexcited. This is the

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normal process. Unless the government get things right the

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first time every time, the has to be this kind of process. These are

:23:10.:23:14.

reasonable amendments. This is a Labour amendment we are talking

:23:15.:23:18.

about here, you want a vote in the UK Parliament before any

:23:19.:23:31.

vote in the European Parliament if and when the Brexit deal is done,

:23:32.:23:35.

the Commons and the Lords get to vote on it first. But the government

:23:36.:23:38.

I think have already agreed to that so what is the point? It needs to be

:23:39.:23:42.

on the face of the bill. It is over well if the government have agreed

:23:43.:23:44.

it. Lord dubs had an agreement about child and look what happened to

:23:45.:23:49.

that. Does not sound as if you would go to the wire on that? It is

:23:50.:23:54.

important it is not just about the vote at the end, you have the

:23:55.:23:59.

ongoing engagement. If it is going to be a bad deal, we need to know

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long before we get to that stage? Is it something you would hold out for?

:24:05.:24:09.

I don't know yet. It is about how the House of Lords votes, Labour do

:24:10.:24:15.

not have a majority, we never had a majority in the House of Lords when

:24:16.:24:18.

we were in government. It is wrong to suggest that we cannot debate

:24:19.:24:23.

these issues... I don't think anyone is suggesting that. They are. It is

:24:24.:24:30.

not unfair to ask the government to ask the House of Commons to look

:24:31.:24:33.

again to look at those issues if that is what the House of Lords

:24:34.:24:37.

decides. Bit of the House of Commons says we looked, we are sticking with

:24:38.:24:42.

what we voted for, we rejected every amendment by at least 30 votes on

:24:43.:24:46.

all occasions, the Lords then have to buckle, is that what you are

:24:47.:24:51.

saying? Some point I think it is clear the House of Commons have to

:24:52.:24:55.

have its say. I think it is inconceivable that having had a

:24:56.:24:58.

referendum, which was not overwhelming, but it was a clear

:24:59.:25:04.

result, the House of Lords has no intention of sabotaging that but

:25:05.:25:06.

there are things which are not good about the process that we think

:25:07.:25:11.

could be improved. We have not just have the result of the referendum

:25:12.:25:15.

which voted to leave, but we have had the will of the Commons that

:25:16.:25:21.

passed this legislation by a majority of 372. And I am not

:25:22.:25:27.

contesting that for a second! Could you cite a precedent for the upper

:25:28.:25:32.

house amending a bill which passed by 372 votes in the Commons? Quite

:25:33.:25:36.

other things will come to the House of Lords with big majorities from

:25:37.:25:39.

the Commons and quite often the amendments we get, with that then

:25:40.:25:43.

forward and the government sees it could do better. Though not

:25:44.:25:49.

necessarily saying the government has got things wrong, but they could

:25:50.:25:52.

do things better. That happens time and time again and it is not

:25:53.:25:57.

unusual. If you were seen to thwart the referendum result and the vote

:25:58.:26:02.

in the Commons, the elected chamber of parliament, is the threat of

:26:03.:26:07.

abolition hanging over you? I think that is really ridiculous and

:26:08.:26:10.

absolute nonsense. We are not tying to what the decision of the House of

:26:11.:26:13.

Commons, we are trying to do better. It is a bit rich of the government

:26:14.:26:18.

and Oliver Letwin to complain about getting things through in time when

:26:19.:26:22.

the House of Commons spent -- the government spent three months trying

:26:23.:26:27.

to debate this issue. There have been some strong questions put to

:26:28.:26:30.

the government from the House of Lords on all sides. I don't know if

:26:31.:26:34.

the amendments have been passed or not. I think we have a good case for

:26:35.:26:43.

the government to get debate the point. If a traditional MP like

:26:44.:26:50.

Oliver Letwin is calling for the abolition of the hereditary and

:26:51.:26:54.

appointed chamber, and the Labour person like yourself was trying to

:26:55.:26:57.

defend that, that would not be a sustainable position, I would

:26:58.:27:03.

suggest! We saw this with the Strathclyde report as well, this is

:27:04.:27:06.

a government like no other. It is the first Conservative government in

:27:07.:27:09.

history not to have an automatic majority. They do not like challenge

:27:10.:27:14.

or scrutiny. But you get my point, Labour cannot go to the wire in

:27:15.:27:19.

defending and an elected second chamber, can it? Actually, Labour

:27:20.:27:22.

can go to the wire in saying the government does not get it right

:27:23.:27:26.

every time. House of Lords is going to normal processes and people like

:27:27.:27:33.

Oliver Letwin are really getting a little bit over excited, and people

:27:34.:27:36.

who have been anonymously briefing. Who has been anonymously briefing? I

:27:37.:27:43.

don't know, they are anonymous! I understand people want to make

:27:44.:27:46.

amendments, that is the role of the House of Lords, but can I just for

:27:47.:27:50.

the avoidance of doubt, is it still your case that whatever amendments

:27:51.:27:54.

to make, whatever may go back and forward, it is not your intention to

:27:55.:28:00.

stop Article 50 being triggered by the end of March? I have been saying

:28:01.:28:05.

that, exactly that for months and months and months. It is

:28:06.:28:08.

inconceivable that an unelected House will thwart the will of the

:28:09.:28:11.

House of Commons and a referendum on this issue. But that does not mean

:28:12.:28:15.

we will be bullied by Oliver Letwin and others. But the triggering will

:28:16.:28:20.

happen by the end of March? I very much suspect so unless Theresa May

:28:21.:28:26.

has second thoughts, I suspect that will happen. Thank you.

:28:27.:28:29.

Now, just because it's parliamentary recess next week

:28:30.:28:31.

There are two by-elections round the corner -

:28:32.:28:35.

one in Copeland, and another in Stoke-on-Trent Central

:28:36.:28:37.

where the former Shadow Education Secretary,

:28:38.:28:38.

Tristram Hunt, vacated his seat to take up a role

:28:39.:28:40.

as Director of the Victoria Albert Museum in London.

:28:41.:28:44.

But Labour are facing a fight to hold onto the constituency

:28:45.:28:46.

Seconds away, Ukip's new leader has stepped into the ring

:28:47.:28:52.

as their candidate in a by-election bout to see

:28:53.:28:54.

At the last election Ukip came second to Labour here

:28:55.:29:02.

But now they are confident they can land a knockout blow,

:29:03.:29:06.

because this place is packed with people that voted to leave the EU.

:29:07.:29:13.

70% of people voted to leave the European Union.

:29:14.:29:16.

I'm the only candidate standing in this election

:29:17.:29:24.

who is a true Brexiteer, who has always campaigned to leave

:29:25.:29:27.

the EU and therefore I believe I would be the best person

:29:28.:29:30.

But he has had to fight off allegations

:29:31.:29:33.

he wasn't living in the constituency when he entered the contest.

:29:34.:29:35.

Explain to me what is going on with this issue about your house?

:29:36.:29:38.

Well, we took up the lease the day before nominations.

:29:39.:29:41.

Everything we've done is perfectly legal and within the law.

:29:42.:29:43.

The Labour Party are trying to get off the real issues in this election

:29:44.:29:49.

and focus on something which is banal nonsense.

:29:50.:29:56.

And there's been trouble as well for the Labour contender.

:29:57.:30:01.

He's been labelled a Remoaner after he sent a series

:30:02.:30:03.

of anti-Brexit tweets, filled with words

:30:04.:30:06.

I can't believe I'm about to ask this question in a nursery

:30:07.:30:17.

on a Sunday morning TV programme, but did you really tweet that

:30:18.:30:20.

I tweeted many things about Brexit, that's tweet is out there.

:30:21.:30:24.

It was done quite after the referendum result and it

:30:25.:30:27.

was my way of showing my frustration at the fact that months

:30:28.:30:30.

after the result we hadn't had anything from the government.

:30:31.:30:35.

Theresa May had failed to produce any plan,

:30:36.:30:37.

she had failed to give any meaningful statement

:30:38.:30:39.

about what Brexit meant other than bland statements

:30:40.:30:41.

about Brexit is Brexit, and it's a hard Brexit, or a soft Brexit.

:30:42.:30:44.

The context of it was it was out of frustration.

:30:45.:30:48.

So you didn't mean to insult the 70% of the people who live here

:30:49.:30:51.

I never mean to insult anybody and you know,

:30:52.:30:55.

I've made it quite clear, if I'm elected as the member

:30:56.:30:57.

of Parliament for Stoke-on-Trent Central, I will absolutely respect

:30:58.:31:00.

the wishes of the people of Stoke Central.

:31:01.:31:01.

I will make sure my vote in parliament is to trigger Article 50.

:31:02.:31:05.

While the Tories' man has done little bit of rebranding too.

:31:06.:31:08.

I voted Remain and I've been open about that, but my top priority

:31:09.:31:11.

is about the economy and to ensure we still have an

:31:12.:31:14.

Theresa May has set out clear proposal to ensure we develop

:31:15.:31:18.

a trade relationship with Europe and make that a success.

:31:19.:31:28.

It means the Lib Dems and the Greens are the ones battling Brexit.

:31:29.:31:31.

Well, when the Lib Dem candidate is actually here.

:31:32.:31:33.

The candidate is a consultant cardiologist.

:31:34.:31:39.

He is actually at work today doing very important heart surgery.

:31:40.:31:42.

He will be back tomorrow, back on the campaign trail working hard.

:31:43.:31:44.

30% of people voted to Remain and nobody else

:31:45.:31:48.

is representing them, so, you know, it is still a live issue.

:31:49.:31:52.

It is still something people care about.

:31:53.:31:54.

We are only at the start of the Article 50 process

:31:55.:31:56.

We are very a clear that we are standing up for those

:31:57.:32:02.

who want to remain in the single market, who want to protect jobs

:32:03.:32:05.

Labour have taken people for granted in this area for a great many years.

:32:06.:32:09.

Ukip, I'm afraid, all Ukip can offer to politics is division.

:32:10.:32:12.

I've covered a lot of by-elections where Ukip have come second.

:32:13.:32:15.

We'll find out if they really got Labour on the ropes this

:32:16.:32:17.

And here is a full list of all the candidates standing

:32:18.:32:37.

in the Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election.

:32:38.:32:48.

They do atract lots of candidates. You can get that on the BBC website

:32:49.:32:57.

as well. I was trying to think back, here we have the main opposition

:32:58.:33:05.

party defending two seats in by-elections in the midterm of a

:33:06.:33:07.

government. All the speculation is where the

:33:08.:33:14.

opposition party can hold on, that is unprecedented. I can't give of an

:33:15.:33:19.

equivalent. You wouldn't just expect them to win seats they have held

:33:20.:33:25.

traditionally, you would expect hem to make inroads into seats held by

:33:26.:33:31.

the other party, I wonder if they fail to hold on to just one of

:33:32.:33:35.

these, whether it accelerates the momentum and criticism of the

:33:36.:33:40.

leadership of the moment. I think they are interesting constituencies.

:33:41.:33:44.

Matthew good win was talking about the left win coalition over the

:33:45.:33:50.

years, almost being too broad for its own good, including places like

:33:51.:33:57.

Primrose Hill and Hackney. Big university towns in Manchester,

:33:58.:34:02.

Bristol. Diverse ethnically and included places like Stoke which are

:34:03.:34:11.

more Conservative. With a small c. Less economically well-off, more

:34:12.:34:16.

diverse, can the left hang on to both bits of country. Recent

:34:17.:34:20.

evidence suggests it cannot and the opportunity for Ukip is to pick up

:34:21.:34:23.

the second of those two types of community, the Stokes and the cope

:34:24.:34:27.

lands. That what makes the by-elections interest I would

:34:28.:34:31.

suggest. It is not just about Mr Corbyn's future about which we hear

:34:32.:34:36.

too much, it is about this traditional Labour coalition, can it

:34:37.:34:40.

still survive, particularly in places like Stoke? Europe clearly is

:34:41.:34:45.

a test. I think it's a myth by the way that Labour are only split now,

:34:46.:34:52.

over Europe and it has always been a Tory problem, last time I was on I

:34:53.:34:56.

mentioned it. That is why we had a referendum in 75. That is why they

:34:57.:35:03.

had a round then. But they were in chaos behind the scenes over what

:35:04.:35:08.

they thought about the euro, skillful leadership can paper over

:35:09.:35:13.

the cracks, and to address the wider issue of whether we are now in an

:35:14.:35:17.

era where left right issues have disappeared, and there is more of a

:35:18.:35:22.

regional divide, if you take Europe out of the equation which you can't,

:35:23.:35:29.

but if you were able to, issues about health, transport housing do

:35:30.:35:33.

split more left-right than a regional divide, so I think there is

:35:34.:35:38.

still fundamental left-right issues, but Europe isn't one of them and

:35:39.:35:44.

Europe has to be managed by a Labour leader skill fully and evidently

:35:45.:35:47.

that hasn't happened now. How would you see the by-elections in the

:35:48.:35:52.

current political context? Labour should be walking them, it should be

:35:53.:35:57.

a sign of the March of the Labour Party taking on the current

:35:58.:35:59.

Conservative Government. I don't think they raise any questions about

:36:00.:36:03.

Corbyn's leadership because the people who put him in don't think

:36:04.:36:06.

that winning elections matter, you have to remember this will be the

:36:07.:36:12.

mainstream media, it will be our fault why any of those Labour

:36:13.:36:16.

candidates don't win, the thing that is interesting is whether there is

:36:17.:36:19.

is a role for Ukip. The argument after the referendum was Ukip has

:36:20.:36:23.

done its job, it got the referendum, nothing to see here, I remember

:36:24.:36:29.

speaking to put a Nuttall before he was Ukip leader, on the day after

:36:30.:36:36.

the battle and he said this is Year Zero, where Ukip starts now, and

:36:37.:36:40.

this, and this is the interesting thing, does, do we see this one

:36:41.:36:43.

particular party having a role in the future? And I think it is all to

:36:44.:36:48.

play for, they could not not have stood in this seat. They have to win

:36:49.:36:52.

it to be an electoral force. The Labour candidate in Copeland has

:36:53.:36:56.

made the NHS the issue for her in this, that goes into the left-right,

:36:57.:36:59.

are we spending enough, are we not? That will be a test of what you were

:37:00.:37:05.

saying to see if traditional left-right issue, which at the

:37:06.:37:09.

moment would play Labour's way I would suggest, are big enough to

:37:10.:37:12.

overcome all the things you have been talking about and Matthew has

:37:13.:37:16.

been talking about. Maybe at this particular junction they are not,

:37:17.:37:20.

but I don't think any of those issues will go away, and that is why

:37:21.:37:26.

I question whether we are see the end of a historic left-right divide.

:37:27.:37:32.

At the moment with Europe so prominent, clearly these

:37:33.:37:35.

by-elections are unusual. And they will be a test of leadership for

:37:36.:37:39.

Theresa May in the coming months if not at the moment, as they have been

:37:40.:37:43.

in a way that he hasn't risen to, for the Labour leader.

:37:44.:37:48.

We will be leave on BBC One on the night, February 23rd off back of

:37:49.:37:52.

this week, we will bring you the result of both these crucial

:37:53.:37:54.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:55.:37:57.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:37:58.:38:00.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:38:01.:38:14.

Hello from Whitehaven on the West Cumbria Coast.

:38:15.:38:16.

The heart of the Copeland constituency.

:38:17.:38:17.

The parties are campaigning hard for an April

:38:18.:38:19.

by-election that will take place now in just 11 days' time.

:38:20.:38:22.

Labour's desperate to win here and hold onto

:38:23.:38:25.

the seat that has a narrow majority of just over 2500.

:38:26.:38:32.

Can they do it, or can the Conservatives in particular

:38:33.:38:34.

In a moment, I will be talking to all the

:38:35.:38:38.

First, Bob Cooper has been looking at some of

:38:39.:38:41.

the issues has been dominating the campaign.

:38:42.:38:43.

Copeland stretches down the west Cumbrian Coast from

:38:44.:38:50.

Whitehaven in the north to Millham in the south

:38:51.:38:52.

and takes in part of the

:38:53.:38:54.

I don't think it is going to be safe in

:38:55.:39:00.

We're going to lose all our services and I am really sad

:39:01.:39:04.

I think the main concern is to be the hospital services

:39:05.:39:07.

Our West Copeland Hospital is being depleted all the time and

:39:08.:39:12.

we know it is a plan to actually move everything to Carlisle.

:39:13.:39:15.

People are keen to protect jobs in the

:39:16.:39:17.

All my family have worked at Sellafield.

:39:18.:39:20.

They have all got grown-up children now who are

:39:21.:39:22.

If it wasn't for that place, they would probably be on the

:39:23.:39:26.

Any other issues that you might vote on?

:39:27.:39:30.

Just to get the town up and running again.

:39:31.:39:32.

This feeling neglect is a common theme in this

:39:33.:39:46.

long held Labour area which voted roughly 60/40 to leave the EU.

:39:47.:39:48.

The parties are fighting hard over this

:39:49.:39:50.

Let's tackle some of those issues now with the seven

:39:51.:39:54.

Let's deal with the nuclear industry first of all.

:39:55.:39:58.

You said you were in favour of a new killer power station

:39:59.:40:08.

in the area, but we know Jeremy Corbyn your leader had a long

:40:09.:40:12.

history of being pretty hostile to nuclear power.

:40:13.:40:14.

Labour was the party that brought civil nuclear

:40:15.:40:19.

to this area and we are a pro nuclear party.

:40:20.:40:21.

My husband works in the supply chain.

:40:22.:40:24.

I am 100% behind the nuclear industry.

:40:25.:40:26.

We need to make investment and to make it

:40:27.:40:29.

We're not getting that commitment from Government.

:40:30.:40:35.

We need investment to make that happen and

:40:36.:40:37.

we need an investment in our health service to support it going forward.

:40:38.:40:40.

Trudy Hammerson for the Conservatives.

:40:41.:40:43.

The Conservatives wanted to play on Jeremy Corbyn's

:40:44.:40:45.

past, but there is no story here, is there?

:40:46.:40:47.

The candidate is firmly behind new nuclear and actually

:40:48.:40:49.

Jeremy Corbyn says he does see it as part of the energy mix in his

:40:50.:40:53.

It is obviously convenient to change your mind during a

:40:54.:40:56.

I think it is absolutely essential that we have

:40:57.:41:01.

I used to work there, my husband works there.

:41:02.:41:13.

It is absolutely essential that we secure that investment.

:41:14.:41:15.

We'll come back to how that might happen.

:41:16.:41:17.

Let's go to the Green party, you are not a party that is

:41:18.:41:20.

particularly friendly to the nuclear energy.

:41:21.:41:22.

You do not want a nuclear power plant in this constituency.

:41:23.:41:25.

That is pretty lethal to your hopes, given

:41:26.:41:29.

That is pretty lethal to your hopes, given the thousands and thousands

:41:30.:41:33.

I think none of the jobs that we currently have in

:41:34.:41:40.

Sellafield are dependent on this new nuclear power plant.

:41:41.:41:42.

We're not opposed to what Sellafield are doing

:41:43.:41:44.

The problem we have is with the new power

:41:45.:41:47.

plant which is not going to

:41:48.:41:49.

provide as many jobs as everyone's saying.

:41:50.:41:50.

I don't think people here are pro-nuclear, I think they are

:41:51.:41:54.

They want other things to be provided for them.

:41:55.:42:00.

If nuclear was so good for this area, we wouldn't have

:42:01.:42:04.

had the VT we just had with people talking about Whitehaven

:42:05.:42:07.

struggling, towns feeling like ghost towns.

:42:08.:42:11.

Liberal Democrats, if you're looking for an MP to push to solve

:42:12.:42:14.

this little bit of uncertainty that is surrounding this power station,

:42:15.:42:16.

we go to the Conservatives, they have the Prime Minister pushing it.

:42:17.:42:19.

We have a very sound nuclear policy and I am

:42:20.:42:33.

an expert in nuclear and could be a great advocate for this industry.

:42:34.:42:37.

I know it inside out and I would strongly disagree

:42:38.:42:39.

with Jack that people are pro-jobs rather than

:42:40.:42:41.

People are pro-nuclear because it makes sense for our

:42:42.:42:44.

If we're going to deliver our carbon targets, we need

:42:45.:42:48.

I will let Jack have a say about that later.

:42:49.:42:53.

Ukip, there has been some discussion about the fact that

:42:54.:42:55.

leaving the EU could likely create more uncertainty about whether this

:42:56.:42:58.

new nuclear power station could happen.

:42:59.:43:01.

We're leaving Euratom, the part of the EU that cooperates in the

:43:02.:43:04.

I really don't think that would be an

:43:05.:43:07.

Actually going forward trade and business will

:43:08.:43:10.

carry on much better outside of the EU.

:43:11.:43:12.

I really don't think that it is an issue.

:43:13.:43:14.

Ukip fully support the development of the nuclear reactors

:43:15.:43:16.

on Moorside and we hope that those jobs will go

:43:17.:43:21.

We have that they are trained up enough there are enough

:43:22.:43:24.

Euratom underpins the nuclear industry.

:43:25.:43:28.

It is important for all our regulation.

:43:29.:43:29.

It underpins our international agreements.

:43:30.:43:30.

Just flip it away as though it is irrelevant and doesn't

:43:31.:43:33.

It doesn't mean that we can't cooperate.

:43:34.:43:36.

We can cooperate, but it can take an awful

:43:37.:43:38.

lot of work and investment, but we don't have the spare nuclear

:43:39.:43:41.

It will cause delays, it will cause miscommunications.

:43:42.:43:44.

That bring in up two independent candidates.

:43:45.:43:46.

Roy Atkinson, your big push is fun renewable energy, isn't it?

:43:47.:43:49.

You go to Whitehaven, if the scientists are right and sea

:43:50.:43:55.

levels rise by a metre you get a storm

:43:56.:43:58.

The centre of Whitehaven is washed away.

:43:59.:44:01.

Also I will put that you that we point out that

:44:02.:44:05.

A few wind turbines are not going to make a

:44:06.:44:08.

No, that's why we will have thousands of them.

:44:09.:44:15.

Michael Guest, trying to make this new nuclear power station happen,

:44:16.:44:24.

Doesn't it require an MP from a big party, not

:44:25.:44:28.

Big parties are pretty strapped with whips.

:44:29.:44:32.

And they were told what to do from down

:44:33.:44:34.

As an independent, I am not constricted in that way, at all.

:44:35.:44:38.

I am pro-nuclear, I see that the nuclear industry in this

:44:39.:44:41.

new build should go ahead and it should be

:44:42.:44:47.

spin offs for centres of excellence should come from those products.

:44:48.:44:49.

They should be basic materials that are

:44:50.:44:55.

Day one as MP, there does seem to be some

:44:56.:45:04.

Toshiba the company the company behind the nuclear power

:45:05.:45:07.

station seems to be reviewing pulling out.

:45:08.:45:08.

I already have a good working relationship with Tom

:45:09.:45:12.

Sampson, the chief executive of Newgen.

:45:13.:45:14.

I will be working with him, Newgen, the Government, to secure

:45:15.:45:17.

What can you do to make sure that the Government...

:45:18.:45:22.

Millions and millions of pounds that will

:45:23.:45:24.

There is no move to that of the Conservative Government,

:45:25.:45:27.

This is the only Government that is actually

:45:28.:45:30.

My background is in securing services and also working

:45:31.:45:35.

I will be taking those lessons to do that.

:45:36.:45:39.

You haven't built anything nuclear in 25

:45:40.:45:41.

years, so how can you say that you are an advocate for it?

:45:42.:45:44.

I am an advocate because I am extremely proud of the world

:45:45.:45:49.

leading skills we have got in this area and I don't think we have been

:45:50.:45:53.

We haven't build any more nuclear reactors

:45:54.:45:59.

We haven't build any more nuclear reactors in 25 years,

:46:00.:46:01.

Are they really serious about nuclear in the energy

:46:02.:46:05.

Firstly, the Conservative Party hasn't been in

:46:06.:46:07.

What is important is that we have committed

:46:08.:46:10.

and we are going to invest in new nuclear.

:46:11.:46:16.

commitment is there and that they are building new nuclear power

:46:17.:46:19.

Labour have chucked it into the long grass under Tony

:46:20.:46:23.

With respect, the Conservatives are not building new

:46:24.:46:26.

They are trying to get private sector to build new nuclear.

:46:27.:46:29.

They are so committed to nuclear that they are

:46:30.:46:32.

stripping away pensions from Sellafield workers.

:46:33.:46:34.

That is how much they respect the nuclear industry

:46:35.:46:36.

and they are not investing it in the infrastructure

:46:37.:46:38.

The health service underpins those jobs.

:46:39.:46:55.

There are many ways to invest the money.

:46:56.:46:57.

They are not investing that money at all.

:46:58.:46:59.

They are not getting any investment to

:47:00.:47:01.

They are expecting the private sector to upgrade railway lines that

:47:02.:47:05.

That is their investment and they're stripping out

:47:06.:47:13.

the other assets made to make it happen.

:47:14.:47:15.

I will allow you to come back on that.

:47:16.:47:18.

We're going to deal with transport and infrastructure

:47:19.:47:20.

Let's deal with the National Health Service.

:47:21.:47:22.

Key services, maternity services, accident and emergency services

:47:23.:47:24.

Involving travel from here to Carlisle.

:47:25.:47:33.

If you look at your campaign literature, you barely

:47:34.:47:37.

I am absolutely not ducking this.

:47:38.:47:40.

My four daughters were born in that hospital.

:47:41.:47:43.

I absolutely oppose the success regime and I oppose the...

:47:44.:47:51.

Where has your opposition been on that?

:47:52.:47:53.

What I have been doing is speaking with the

:47:54.:47:58.

minister, the health Minister Philip Dunn

:47:59.:48:00.

and what we have agreed in

:48:01.:48:01.

writing is that there will be a professionally, Government backed

:48:02.:48:04.

Let me be clear that the issue here is not money.

:48:05.:48:08.

Save our services was formed ten years ago during a Labour

:48:09.:48:10.

The issue here is about recruitment and that is why

:48:11.:48:14.

the nuclear industry plays a big part in this.

:48:15.:48:16.

It will enable us to recruit highly skilled

:48:17.:48:18.

Whether it be for health, education or nuclear.

:48:19.:48:21.

Rebecca Hanson, you want to say something.

:48:22.:48:27.

I have seen the Government report on this.

:48:28.:48:31.

NHS England has come out with a report to say it is safe

:48:32.:48:35.

to travel up to four hours in labour in order to push through the closure

:48:36.:48:38.

It is an appalling report, it doesn't make logical sense,

:48:39.:48:42.

I think all of the candidates are against the success regime.

:48:43.:48:50.

What is important is how we are going to deal with it.

:48:51.:48:58.

Labour are basically saying that this is all at the doors

:48:59.:49:01.

These are local decisions being made by

:49:02.:49:05.

Just asking Theresa May to throw money at this

:49:06.:49:09.

The success regime was sent in at the

:49:10.:49:12.

It was supposed to look at new ways of working at

:49:13.:49:16.

in the health economy of north Cumbria and what it has

:49:17.:49:19.

actually looked at is fitting in within the arbitrary budget given to

:49:20.:49:22.

The recruitment problems are not the Government's doing.

:49:23.:49:27.

They have dogged this area and the NHS for years.

:49:28.:49:34.

Whilst there's uncertainty, people will not come.

:49:35.:49:36.

We have heard of consultants being told not to bother

:49:37.:49:39.

applying because they have been told there won't be a job here.

:49:40.:49:44.

We're not going to get recruitment under those

:49:45.:49:46.

Whilst the Tories are taking money out of the NHS are

:49:47.:49:51.

nationally and locally, we are not going to get people here.

:49:52.:49:54.

Isn't it an intractable problem that you and any other

:49:55.:50:15.

You can't frankly get the doctors and the surgeons and the

:50:16.:50:20.

Why haven't we got any doctors or nurses?

:50:21.:50:28.

The reason we haven't got sufficient doctors and nurses is

:50:29.:50:30.

because previous administrations didn't train enough.

:50:31.:50:40.

The Labour Party cut training places.

:50:41.:50:44.

You just haven't trained enough in this

:50:45.:50:46.

The ones that do work in the health service because it is so

:50:47.:50:53.

there aren't enough staff, they'll leave and go to New Zealand

:50:54.:50:56.

Most of them are from outside the EU, not inside the EU.

:50:57.:51:12.

What we have done is taken doctors from third

:51:13.:51:14.

World countries to come here because we haven't trained sufficient

:51:15.:51:16.

The nuclear policy, we said we need more doctors and nurses and

:51:17.:51:20.

we will waive the tuition fees that we get

:51:21.:51:22.

we will waive the tuition fees that we get sufficient

:51:23.:51:25.

If we'd implemented our policy a few years ago, we wouldn't

:51:26.:51:29.

Jack Lennox, what is the Green party's solution to the

:51:30.:51:32.

problems that have dogged this possible for a long time?

:51:33.:51:34.

I think Caroline Lucas has been more active

:51:35.:51:37.

than almost any other MP in Parliament in promoting the NHS

:51:38.:51:39.

That is trying to underuse the health and social

:51:40.:51:42.

care act of 2012 but was put through by the Lib Dems

:51:43.:51:45.

How does that help the West Cumberland

:51:46.:51:48.

I think the problem is a lot bigger than just west

:51:49.:51:51.

The problem is the underfunding of the NHS Trust.

:51:52.:51:55.

We had this crazy reorganisation by Andrew

:51:56.:51:58.

It wasn't in the Conservative Party's manifesto.

:51:59.:52:00.

It wasn't in the coalition agreement.

:52:01.:52:02.

It just happened, the Lib Dems voted for it.

:52:03.:52:04.

We have got a huge problem here that is much bigger than this

:52:05.:52:07.

place and we need to undo what has been going on.

:52:08.:52:10.

What is the independent's candidate solution to

:52:11.:52:11.

Given that this success regime was full of

:52:12.:52:15.

highly offered people who are looking at this.

:52:16.:52:16.

I would like to see this hospital be ring fenced with NHS funding.

:52:17.:52:21.

I would like to see more money coming in from the nuclear.

:52:22.:52:24.

It should be run by the consultants and staff and people

:52:25.:52:29.

No, that would be a nice start, wouldn't it?

:52:30.:52:35.

It is sitting there, services being sent

:52:36.:52:38.

The centre of all the health for west Cumbria.

:52:39.:52:43.

Quite honestly, I put every single political party in

:52:44.:52:47.

this room together, they haven't got half a plan between them.

:52:48.:52:50.

My plan is that you have got to ask yourself

:52:51.:52:59.

why is the health service having too much pressure on?

:53:00.:53:01.

The answer is people are getting ill.

:53:02.:53:03.

The solution is to stop them getting ill.

:53:04.:53:08.

So the problem is in the food-processing industry.

:53:09.:53:09.

We are going to have to wait a long time for that to solve

:53:10.:53:18.

the problems of the west Cumberland Hospital.

:53:19.:53:24.

Just allow this epidemic to continue?

:53:25.:53:28.

The National Health Service will be overwhelmed.

:53:29.:53:37.

At the end of the day more money is being needed for the NHS?

:53:38.:53:41.

Problems of the NHS and all across the country, that would help,

:53:42.:53:44.

This Government is already invested ?10 million into

:53:45.:53:47.

As I said, save our services was created

:53:48.:53:52.

ten years ago to deal with recruitment.

:53:53.:53:54.

What about the uncertainty preventing recruitment happening.

:53:55.:54:00.

The uncertainty that has been created career, chance of solving

:54:01.:54:02.

What we need to do and what has been agreed by Philip Dunn

:54:03.:54:10.

is to have a professional Government backed review before any decision

:54:11.:54:12.

We created training places and they were cut by the

:54:13.:54:19.

We need more nurses and since they scrapped the training

:54:20.:54:26.

nursery bursaries, they have fallen by 23%.

:54:27.:54:33.

We need more people, more paramedics.

:54:34.:54:35.

Those have been cut by this Government.

:54:36.:54:38.

We need investment in our buildings and everything.

:54:39.:54:45.

The reason you don't have investment is

:54:46.:54:57.

that the Labour policy was buy one hospital and pay for six.

:54:58.:55:00.

You did promise me a chance to come back on health.

:55:01.:55:04.

You can raise the issue, I need to move on

:55:05.:55:06.

On infrastructure, the Conservative Party,

:55:07.:55:09.

I know the neglect has gone on for more than seven years, but

:55:10.:55:13.

you have had seven years to sort out the local road system for instance.

:55:14.:55:16.

My plan would see the A595 re-trunked.

:55:17.:55:21.

That was de-trunked by a previous Labour

:55:22.:55:22.

It think that is absolutely essential.

:55:23.:55:25.

Changing the classification of a road is not

:55:26.:55:33.

going to put any more tarmac down and make it any quicker, is it?

:55:34.:55:36.

Changing the classification is the start.

:55:37.:55:39.

That will allow Highway England rather than the local highway

:55:40.:55:41.

What I want to see is more duelling on the road.

:55:42.:55:45.

Actually from Carlisle down to Barra, but certainly

:55:46.:55:47.

I'm working with John Stevens to improve that.

:55:48.:55:50.

In terms of the local infrastructure?

:55:51.:55:51.

And as part of the debate as well, that journey to Carlisle would

:55:52.:56:01.

The issue would still need to be addressed.

:56:02.:56:06.

To concentrate on infrastructure, we have got such

:56:07.:56:08.

I absolutely agree the de-trunking of

:56:09.:56:11.

the A595 was a colossal mistake and needs to be reversed.

:56:12.:56:13.

The problems are so bad, the A595 is so

:56:14.:56:18.

long and the rail service needs such massive investment,

:56:19.:56:20.

that we get stuck as a community.

:56:21.:56:25.

We need to work better together as a community.

:56:26.:56:30.

There needs to be stronger leadership ringing the councils

:56:31.:56:32.

together and getting everyone talking to each other to prioritise

:56:33.:56:34.

That is what has been lacking and it has been a potential

:56:35.:56:40.

investment like Newgen because things have ground to a halt

:56:41.:56:43.

As I alluded to, this neglect of the transport

:56:44.:56:47.

infrastructure goes long beyond 2010.

:56:48.:56:48.

Labour were just as guilty of doing nothing to improve this area.

:56:49.:56:51.

We invested heavily in this area in public services

:56:52.:56:54.

We invested heavily in this area in public services we had...

:56:55.:56:57.

The roads and railways have been neglected for decades, haven't they?

:56:58.:56:59.

We had investment planned for a new build in

:57:00.:57:04.

West Cumberland Hospital which was scrapped by the Tories.

:57:05.:57:08.

?50 million gone from Whitehaven Academy.

:57:09.:57:12.

It is easy to commit money when you are just about to leave

:57:13.:57:21.

We weren't intending to leave office and what we needed was

:57:22.:57:25.

The plans for the Lillyhall bypass were under a Labour Government.

:57:26.:57:36.

Just re-labelling something as a trunk

:57:37.:57:38.

You only have to look at the existing bits of the

:57:39.:57:42.

They're not being improved because there is insufficient

:57:43.:57:46.

We have a rail line that has been neglected since about 1840.

:57:47.:57:51.

The Greens, largely opposed to building new

:57:52.:57:57.

roads, but actually it is the only solution here.

:57:58.:58:00.

Public transport is not an option in a rural area like this.

:58:01.:58:04.

I think we have a pragmatic approach to this.

:58:05.:58:07.

The public transport is very important that I think it is

:58:08.:58:09.

frustrating that that is being overlooked.

:58:10.:58:11.

There have been many studies done of how rural community

:58:12.:58:20.

their economies are hit disproportionately by cutting public

:58:21.:58:22.

The price to get to Penrith is absurd.

:58:23.:58:26.

Is about a 30 minute journey and it costs ?6.50.

:58:27.:58:30.

We're pragmatic and we understand that

:58:31.:58:41.

Ukip always exploit the neglect and isolation argument in their

:58:42.:58:45.

I read the other day Copeland is the most remote

:58:46.:58:49.

It certainly feels that way because travelling from one end

:58:50.:58:53.

We need investment into the road and rail

:58:54.:58:58.

That in turn will bring more businesses.

:58:59.:59:00.

If we leave the EU, we will have plenty of money.

:59:01.:59:04.

Let us talk to the independent candidates.

:59:05.:59:11.

Isn't the vote wasted on you in this by-election?

:59:12.:59:18.

It is because I'm a lone voice that I can

:59:19.:59:32.

actually make inroads and I can walk into offices and talk to people

:59:33.:59:36.

without somebody putting one arm behind my back.

:59:37.:59:37.

I am standing for the people of Copeland.

:59:38.:59:42.

There is a growing independent minded thinking.

:59:43.:59:44.

People are actually getting really cheesed

:59:45.:59:45.

off with the main setup of

:59:46.:59:47.

You either want somebody to speak to you or you want somebody...

:59:48.:00:03.

Look, these people, they're all political salesmen representing.

:00:04.:00:05.

They will speak for what they are told to speak for.

:00:06.:00:07.

You were'nt a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn in

:00:08.:00:21.

Are you just going to go along with him in Parliament?

:00:22.:00:38.

I'm in the Labour Party to represent the views

:00:39.:00:40.

I have had Jeremy up twice in this election.

:00:41.:00:46.

That is more than Theresa May, who I didn't

:00:47.:00:54.

You're just going to be voting fodder for the

:00:55.:00:59.

What would say is we are all in agreement.

:01:00.:01:02.

We want to save the services of west Cumberland

:01:03.:01:05.

After the excitement and late nights in the Commons last week,

:01:06.:01:15.

MPs are having a little break this week as we head into

:01:16.:01:18.

But there's still plenty in the diary in the near future -

:01:19.:01:22.

let's just remind ourselves of some key upcoming dates.

:01:23.:01:30.

There they are. We have the two by-elections on February 23rd. The

:01:31.:01:40.

budget is 8th March. That will be the last spring budget under this

:01:41.:01:43.

Government because it moves to the autumn.

:01:44.:01:57.

That round of French elections narrows the candidates, probably

:01:58.:02:04.

about eight or nine, down to two, the two who come first and second,

:02:05.:02:09.

then go into a play off round on May 7th. That will determine the next

:02:10.:02:16.

President. Steve, listening to Oliver Letwin and to the Labour

:02:17.:02:20.

leader in the House of Lords, is there any way you think that end of

:02:21.:02:24.

March deadline for Mrs May could be in jeopardy? No, I don't. Andrew

:02:25.:02:29.

Smith couldn't have been clearer with you they would do nothing to

:02:30.:02:34.

block not just Article 50 but that timetable, so I would be surprised

:02:35.:02:40.

if they don't make it. Given her, Theresa May's explicit determination

:02:41.:02:44.

to do so, not to do so would have become a problem for her, I think

:02:45.:02:49.

one way or another... No before this vote last week there was a vote nor

:02:50.:02:54.

the deadline, to agree the deadline by all sides. Plain sailing do you

:02:55.:02:59.

think? There is no serious Parliamentary resistance and it

:03:00.:03:02.

would be a personal embarrassment, I think for the Prime Minister to name

:03:03.:03:05.

the the end of March as the deadline and to miss it, unless she has a

:03:06.:03:11.

good excuse. I I reckon it will change the atmosphere of politics

:03:12.:03:15.

for the next two years, as soon as the negotiations begin, people in

:03:16.:03:18.

our profession will hunt for any detail and inside information we can

:03:19.:03:22.

find, thing also be leaked, I think from the European side from time to

:03:23.:03:26.

time, it will dominate the headlines for a solid two years and change

:03:27.:03:31.

politics. Let me just raise a possible, a dark cloud. No bigger

:03:32.:03:37.

than man's hand, that can complicate the timetable, because the Royal

:03:38.:03:41.

Assent on the current timetable has to come round the 13th. I would

:03:42.:03:46.

suggest that the Prime Minister can't trigger that until she does

:03:47.:03:50.

get the Royal Assent. If there is a bit of ping-pong that could delay

:03:51.:03:56.

that by receive day, the last thing the Europeans would want, they have

:03:57.:03:59.

another big meeting at the end of March which is the 60th anniversary

:04:00.:04:06.

of the Treaty of Rome. They don't want Article 50 to land on the

:04:07.:04:12.

table... It would infuriate everybody. My guess is she will have

:04:13.:04:17.

done it by then, this is between the Commons and the Lords, I mean Andrew

:04:18.:04:21.

Smith couldn't have been clearer, that they might send something back

:04:22.:04:27.

but they didn't expect a kind of a long play over this, so. The Liberal

:04:28.:04:32.

Democrats, they are almost an irrelevance in the Commons but not

:04:33.:04:37.

the Lords, they feel differently. Now, we don't know yet what the

:04:38.:04:42.

European Union negotiating position is going to be, we don't know

:04:43.:04:45.

because there are several crucial elections taking place, the Dutch

:04:46.:04:48.

taking place in March and then the one we put up, the French, and, at

:04:49.:04:53.

the moment, the French one is, it seems like it is coming down, to a

:04:54.:05:00.

play-off in the second round between Madame Le Pen who could come first

:05:01.:05:08.

in the first round and this Blairite figure, independent, centre-leftish

:05:09.:05:12.

Mr Macron, he may well get through and that, and the outcome of that

:05:13.:05:16.

will be an important determine napt on our negotiations. -- determinant.

:05:17.:05:21.

You o couldn't have two more different candidate, you have a

:05:22.:05:26.

national a front candidate and on the other hand the closest thing

:05:27.:05:30.

France could have you to a liberal President. With a small l. A

:05:31.:05:37.

reformist liberal President. It would be the most French thing in

:05:38.:05:42.

the world to elect someone who while the rest of the world is elected

:05:43.:05:49.

elitist, to elect someone who is the son of a teacher, who has liberal

:05:50.:05:55.

views, is a member of the French elite. It would be a thing for them

:05:56.:06:02.

to elect a man like that which I why I see them doing it. If it is Le

:06:03.:06:10.

Pen, Brexit becomes a minor sideshow, if it is Le Pen, the

:06:11.:06:14.

future of the European Union is? Danger, regardless of whether we are

:06:15.:06:22.

were in or out. I suggest if it is Mr Macron that presents some

:06:23.:06:25.

problems. He doesn't have his own party. He won't have a majority in

:06:26.:06:29.

the French assembly, he is untried and untested. He wants to do a

:06:30.:06:33.

number of things that will be unpopular which is why a number of

:06:34.:06:41.

people close to Mrs Le Pen tell me that she has her eye on 2022. She

:06:42.:06:48.

thinks lit go to hell in a hand basket under Mr Macron. He hasn't

:06:49.:06:55.

got the experience. What I find fascinating. It is not just all to

:06:56.:07:00.

play for in France, it is the fact what happens in France and Germany,

:07:01.:07:03.

not so much Holland I think but Germany later on in the year, how

:07:04.:07:10.

much it impacts what we are going to get. How much which ex #i78 panting

:07:11.:07:23.

on them. And at the time we are trying to, withdrawing ourself from

:07:24.:07:25.

European politics it is fascinating how much it will affect us. You see

:07:26.:07:29.

what Matthew was talking about earlier in the show, that what we do

:07:30.:07:35.

know, almost for sure, is that the socialist candidate will not get

:07:36.:07:38.

through to the second round. He could come firth but the

:07:39.:07:44.

centre-right candidate. If we were discussing that monthing a we would

:07:45.:07:47.

say it between teen the centre-right and the national fronts. We are to

:07:48.:07:53.

saying that. Matthew good win who spent a time in France isn't sure Le

:07:54.:07:57.

Pen will get into the second round, which is interesting. It is, I mean,

:07:58.:08:02.

it is going to be as important for the future of the European Union, as

:08:03.:08:09.

in retrospect the British 2015 general election was, if Labour had

:08:10.:08:12.

got in there would have been no referendum. That referendum has

:08:13.:08:15.

transformed the European Union because we are leaving and the

:08:16.:08:21.

French election is significant. We will be live from Paris on April

:08:22.:08:27.

23rd on the day France goings to the first round of polls. Tom Watson, he

:08:28.:08:32.

was on The Andrew Marr Show earlier today, was asked about Mr Corbyn,

:08:33.:08:33.

this is what he had to say. We had a damaging second leadership

:08:34.:08:38.

election, so we've got The polls aren't great for us,

:08:39.:08:42.

but I'm determined now we've got the leadership settled for this

:08:43.:08:46.

parliament, that we can focus on developing a very positive clear

:08:47.:08:48.

message to the British people So Julia, I don't know who are you

:08:49.:09:04.

are giggling. I find it untenable that, he is a very good media

:09:05.:09:09.

performer and he comes on and he is sitting there so well, you know,

:09:10.:09:13.

things are bad but don't worry we are looking at what we can do to win

:09:14.:09:18.

2020. The idea that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were sitting in their

:09:19.:09:23.

offices or on TV screens at this time in the electoral cycle thinking

:09:24.:09:27.

well I wonder if we can come up with a policy the British people might

:09:28.:09:33.

like. It is a nonsense, this is Tuesday night book zlufb. I am going

:09:34.:09:40.

to ask you the question I was going to before. I would suggest that he

:09:41.:09:47.

the right. The deputy Labour leader Tom Watson is violent the leadership

:09:48.:09:54.

is settled, with one caveat, unless the Corbynistas themselves to decide

:09:55.:09:58.

to move on Mr Corbyn, if the left of the Labour Party decides then it is

:09:59.:10:03.

not settled. Settled. If that doesn't happen that is That would be

:10:04.:10:08.

the worst situation if you are a Labour moderate. The Corbynistas

:10:09.:10:12.

would be saying the problem is no Corbynism, it is Corbyn himself, if

:10:13.:10:18.

we a younger person leading the process we can win the next general

:10:19.:10:23.

election, which means you have another itration of this, another

:10:24.:10:27.

five year experiment. And that is worst of all. If you are a Labour

:10:28.:10:35.

moderate, what you want is Jeremy Corbyn contest the next general

:10:36.:10:40.

election, possibly loses badly and then a Labour not moderate runs for

:10:41.:10:43.

the leadership saying we have tried your way, the worst would be Corbyn

:10:44.:10:48.

going, and a younger seven version of him trying and the experiment

:10:49.:10:53.

being extended. I see no easy way out of this. That is why he radiated

:10:54.:10:58.

the enthusiasm of someone in a hostage video in that interview.

:10:59.:11:03.

Maybe he has the Stockholm Syndrome now. The Labour moderates have had

:11:04.:11:10.

their day in the sun, two days in the sun and they lost. I suggest

:11:11.:11:14.

they are not going to try for the hat-trick again. Is there any

:11:15.:11:18.

indication that on the more Corbyn wing of the Labour Party, there is

:11:19.:11:25.

now doubts about their man. Yes, just to translate Tom Watson, what

:11:26.:11:30.

he meant was I Tom Watson am not going to get involved in another

:11:31.:11:36.

attempted coup. I tried it and it was a catastrophe. That is question

:11:37.:11:42.

enhe says it is set selled. It is because there is speculation on a

:11:43.:11:48.

daily basis. I disagree, Julia said I think this lot don't care about

:11:49.:11:54.

winning, I think they do. If the current position continue, one of

:11:55.:11:57.

two things will happen. Either Jeremy Corbyn will decide himself

:11:58.:12:01.

will decide he doesn't want to carry on. He half enjoys I it and half

:12:02.:12:08.

hates it. Finds it a strain. If that doesn't happen there will be some

:12:09.:12:13.

people round him who will say, look, this isn't working. There is another

:12:14.:12:18.

three-and-a-half years. There is a long way to go. I can't see it

:12:19.:12:24.

lasting in this way with politics in a state of flux, Tories will be

:12:25.:12:29.

under pressure in the coming two years, to have opinion polls at this

:12:30.:12:34.

level, I think is unsustainable. Final thought from you.? Yes, the

:12:35.:12:38.

idea it St another three-and-a-half years is just madness, but the

:12:39.:12:43.

people we are putting up at replacement for Jeremy Corbyn, and

:12:44.:12:48.

they have been focus grouping them. Most members wouldn't know who most

:12:49.:12:52.

of people were let alone most of the public.

:12:53.:12:56.

Angela rain? They are not overwhelmed with leadership

:12:57.:13:03.

potential at the moment. Very diplomatically put. Neither are the

:13:04.:13:07.

Tories, but they happened to have one at the moment. All right. That

:13:08.:13:09.

is it. Now, there's no Daily

:13:10.:13:12.

or Sunday Politics for the next week But the Daily Politics will be back

:13:13.:13:15.

on Monday 20th February and I'll be back here with the Sunday Politics

:13:16.:13:19.

on the 26th. Remember if it's Sunday,

:13:20.:13:23.

it's the Sunday Politics... Just back from

:13:24.:13:25.

a very long shift at work... The staff are losing -

:13:26.:14:07.

they're just giving in. Panorama goes undercover

:14:08.:14:13.

to reveal the real cost OK, everyone, have you got

:14:14.:14:18.

your bamboo sticks? If you just paint

:14:19.:14:50.

what you want to paint, I've turned around,

:14:51.:14:51.

my painting washes away. ..and take on

:14:52.:14:57.

The Big Painting Challenge. Remember, you're not painting

:14:58.:15:02.

a pond.

:15:03.:15:06.

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss present the latest political news, interviews and debate and are joined by shadow leader of the House of Lords Baroness Smith and Conservative Oliver Letwin. Plus leadership hustings. The political panellists are Janan Ganesh from the Financial Times, Julia Hartley-Brewer from talkRADIO and journalist Steve Richards.