05/02/2017 Sunday Politics North West


05/02/2017

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It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

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Theresa May pledged to help people who are "just about managing",

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and this week her government will announce new measures to boost

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the number of affordable homes and improve conditions for renters.

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After a US court suspends Donald Trump's travel ban and rules

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it could be unconstitutional, one of the President's inner circle

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tells me there is no "chaos", and that Donald Trump's White House

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is making good on his campaign promises.

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As the Government gets into gear for two years

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of Brexit negotiations, we report on the haggling to come

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over the UK's Brexit bill for leaving the European Union -

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and the costs and savings once we've left.

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And in the North West, can we get a Brexit deal

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The Metro Mayor candidates on where they see our the place in the world.

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And with me, as always, a trio of top political

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journalists - Helen Lewis, Tom Newton Dunn

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They'll be tweeting throughout the programme,

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So, more anguish to come this week for the Labour party as the House

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of Commons continues to debate the bill which paves the way

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Last week, Labour split over the Article 50 bill,

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with a fifth of Labour MPs defying Jeremy Corbyn to vote against.

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Five shadow ministers resigned, and it's expected Mr Corbyn

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will have to sack more frontbenchers once the bill is voted

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Add to that the fact that the Labour Leader's close ally

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Diane Abbot failed to turn up for the initial vote -

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blaming illness - and things don't look too rosy

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The Shadow Foreign Secretary Emily Thornberry was asked

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about the situation earlier on the Andrew Marr show.

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The Labour Party is a national party and we represent the nation,

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and the nation is divided on this, and it is very difficult.

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Many MPs representing majority Remain constituencies have this very

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difficult balancing act between - do I represent my constituency,

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Labour, as a national party, have a clear view.

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We fought to stay in Europe, but the public have spoken,

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But the important thing now is not to give Theresa May a blank check,

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we have to make sure we get the right deal for the country.

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That was Emily Thornberry. Helen, is this like a form of Chinese water

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torture for the Labour Party? And for journalists, to! We are in a

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situation where no one really thinks it's working. A lot of authority has

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drained away from Jeremy Corbyn but no one can do anything about it.

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What we saw from the leadership contest is on the idea of a Blairite

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plot to get rid of him. You are essentially stuck in stasis. The

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only person that can remove Jeremy Corbyn is God or Jeremy Corbyn.

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Authority may have moved from Mr Corbyn but it's not going anywhere

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else, there's not an alternative centre of authority? Not quite, but

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Clive Lewis is name emerging, the Shadow Business Secretary. A lot of

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the Labour left, people like Paul Mason, really like him and would

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like to see him in Corbyn. I think that's why Jeremy Corbyn do

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something extraordinary next week and abstain from Article 50, the

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main bill itself, to keep his Shadow Cabinet together. That clip on

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Andrew Marr, point blank refusing to say if Labour will vote for Article

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50. The only way Jeremy Corbyn can hold this mess together now is to

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abstain, which would be catastrophic across Brexit constituencies in the

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North. The problem with abstention is everyone will say on the issue of

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our time, the official opposition hasn't got coherent or considered

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policy? I love the way Emily Thornberry said the country is

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divided and we represent the country, in other words we are

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divided at the party as well. The other thing that was a crucial

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moment this week is the debate over whether there should be a so-called

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meaningful vote by MPs on the deal that Theresa May gets. That is a

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point of real danger for Brexit supporters. It may well be there is

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a coalition of Labour and SNP and Remain MPs, Tory MPs, who vote for

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that so-called meaningful vote that could undermine Theresa May's

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negotiation. So Theresa May could have had troubles as well, not plain

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sailing for her? There is no point, apart from lonely Ken Clarke voting

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against Article 50, no point in Tory remainders rebelling. It would have

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been a token gesture with no support. But there might be

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meaningful amendments. One might be on the status of EU nationals... The

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government could lose that. There might be a majority for some of

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those amendments. The ins and outs of the Labour Party, it fascinates

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the Labour Party and journalists. I suspect the country has just moved

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on and doesn't care. You are probably quite right. To be honest I

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struggled to get Labour split stories in my paper any more, the

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bar is so high to make it news. Where it does matter is now not

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everyone will pay huge amounts to the -- of attention to the vote on

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Wednesday. But come the general election in 2020, maybe a little

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earlier, every Tory leaflet and every labour constituency will say

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this guy, this goal, they refuse to vote for Brexit, do you want them in

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power? That is going to be really hard for them. The story next week

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may be Tory splits rather than just Labour ones, we will see.

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Theresa May has made a big deal out of her commitment to help people

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on middle incomes who are "just about managing", and early this week

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we should get a good sense of what that means in practice -

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when plans to bring down the cost of housing and protect renters

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are published in the Government's new white paper.

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Theresa May has promised she'll kick off Brexit negotiations with the EU

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by the end of March, and after months of shadow-boxing

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Ellie Price reports on the battle to come over the UK's Brexit bill,

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and the likely costs and savings once we've left.

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It was the figure that defined the EU referendum campaign.

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It was also a figure that was fiercely disputed, but the promise -

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vote leave and Britain won't have to pay into the EU are any more.

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So, is that what's going to happen now?

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The trouble with buses is you tend to have to wait for them

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and when Theresa May triggers Article 50, the clock starts

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She needs something quicker, something more sporty.

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According to the most recent Treasury figures,

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Britain's gross contribution to the EU, after the rebate

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is taken into account, is about ?14 billion a year.

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There are some complicating factors that means it can go up

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or down year on year, but that's roughly how much the UK

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will no longer sending to Brussels post-Brexit.

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But, there are other payments that Britain will have to shell out for.

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First and foremost, the so-called divorce settlement.

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It is being said, and openly by Commissioner Barnier

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and others in the Commission, that the total financial liability

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as they see it might be in the order of 40-60 billion

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The BBC understands the figure EU negotiators are likely

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to settle on is far lower, around 34 billion euros,

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but what does the money they are going to argue

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Well, that's how much Britain owes for stuff in the EU budget that's

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already signed up for until 2020, one year after we are

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Historically, Britain pays 12% in contributions,

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so the cost to the UK is likely to be between ten

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Then they will look at the 200-250 billion euros of underfunded

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spending commitments, the so-called RAL.

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Britain could also be liable for around 5-7 billion euros

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for its share in the pensions bill for EU staff, that's again

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12% of an overall bill of 50-60 billion.

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Finally there's a share of our assets held by the EU.

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They include things like this building, the European Commission

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Britain could argue it deserves a share back of around 18 billion

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euros from a portfolio that's said to be worth 153 billion euros.

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So, lots for the two sides to discuss in two years of talks.

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They have a great opportunity with the Article 50 talks

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because actually they can hold us to ransom.

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They can say, "You figure out money, we will talk about your trade.

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But until you've figured out the money, we won't," so I think

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a lot of European states think they are in a very strong

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negotiating position at the moment and they intend to make

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The principle is clear, the days of Britain making vast

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contributions to the European Union every year will end.

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Theresa May has already indicated that she would want to sign back up

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to a number of EU agencies on a program-by-program basis.

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The Europol for example, that's the European crime

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agency, or Erasmus Plus, which wants student exchanges.

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If everything stays the same as it is now, it would cost the UK

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675 million euros a year, based on analysis by

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But there are likely to be agencies we don't choose to participate in.

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If we only opted back to those dealing with security,

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trade, universities and, say, climate change,

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it could come with a price tag of 370 million euros per year.

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Of course that's if our European neighbours allow us.

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I wonder if they're going to let me in!

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There will also be a cost to creating a new system to resolve

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trade disputes with other nations once we are no longer part

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Take the EFTA Court which rules on disputes

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between the EU and Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein.

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That costs 4 million euros to run each year,

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though in the Brexit White Paper published this week,

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the Government said it will not be constrained by precedent

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Finally, would the EU get behind the idea of Britain making some

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contribution for some preferential access to its market?

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The sort of thing that Theresa May seems to be hinting

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at are sectoral arrangements, some kind of partial membership

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Switzerland, which has a far less wide-ranging deal than Norway,

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pays about 320 million a year for what it gets into the EU budget,

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but it's not exactly the Swiss deal that we're after.

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The EU institutions hate the Swiss deal because it is codified

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in a huge number of treaties that are messy, complicated

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and cumbersome, and they really don't want to replicate

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Theresa May has been at pains to insist she's in the driving seat

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when it comes to these negotiations, and that she's

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But with so much money up for discussion, it may not be such

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Sadly she didn't get to keep the car!

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And I've been joined to discuss the Brexit balance sheet

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by the director of the Centre for European Reform, Charles Grant,

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and by Henry Newman who runs the think tank Open Europe.

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Henry Newman, these figures that are being thrown about in Brussels at

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the moment, and exit bill of 40-60,000,000,000. What do you make

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of them? I think it is an opening gambit from the institutions and we

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should take them seriously. We listened to Mr Rogers, the former

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ambassador to Brussels in the House of Commons last week, speaking about

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the sort of positions the EU is likely to take in the negotiation. I

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personally think the Prime Minister should be more concerned about

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getting the right sort of trade arrangements, subsequent to our

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departure, than worrying about the exact detail of the divorce

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settlement and the Bill. They might not let them go on to trade until

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they resolve this matter. Where does the Brexit bill, the cost of exit,

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if there is to be one, in terms of a sum of money, where does that come

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in the negotiations, upfront or at the end? The European Commission has

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a firm line on this. You have to talk about the Brexit bill and the

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divorce settlement before you talk about the future relationship.

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Therefore they are saying if you don't sign up for 60 billion or

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thereabouts, we won't talk about the future. Other member states take a

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softer line than that and think you probably have to talk about the

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divorce settlement and Brexit bill as the same -- at the same time as

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the economic situation. If you can do both at the same time, the

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atmosphere may be better natured. You have spoken to people in

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Brussels and are part of a think tank, how Revista gives the figure

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or is it an opening gambit? Most member states and EU institutions

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believe they think it is the true figure but when the negotiations

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start adding the number will come down. As long as the British are

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prepared to sign up to the principle of we owe you a bit of money, as the

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cheque, then people will compromise. What is the ballpark? You had a

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figure of 34 billion, that is news to me, nobody knows because

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negotiations haven't started but I think something lower than 60. Even

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60 would be politically toxic for a British government? I think Theresa

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May is in a strong position, she has united the Conservative Party. You

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could expect coming into this year all the Conservative divisions would

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be laid bare by Gina Miller. But she is leading a united party. Labour

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Party are divided... Coogee get away with paying 30 billion? We should

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give her the benefit of the doubt going into these negotiations, let

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her keep her cards close to her chest. The speech he gave a few

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weeks ago at Lancaster House, our judgment was she laid out as much

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detail as we could have expected at that point. I don't think it's

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helpful for us now to say, we shouldn't be introducing further red

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line. I want you to be helpful and find things out. I would suggest if

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there is a bill, let's say it's 30 billion, let's make it half of what

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the current claims coming out of Brussels. And of course it won't

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have to be paid in one year, I assume it's not one cheque but

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spread over. But we will wait a long time for that 350 million a week or

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what ever it was that was meant to come from Brussels to spend on the

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NHS. That's not going to happen for the next five, six or seven years.

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Everyone has been clear there will be a phased exit programme. The

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question of whether something is political possible for her in terms

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of the divorce settlement will depend on what she gets from the

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European Union in those negotiations. If she ends up

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settling for a bill of about 30 billion which I think would be

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politically... No matter how popular she is, politically very difficult

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for her, it does kill any idea there is a Brexit dividend for Britain.

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Some of the senior officials in London and Brussels are worried this

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issue could crash the talks because it may be possible for Theresa May

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to accept a Brexit bill of 30 billion and if there is no deal and

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will leave EU without a settlement, there is massive legal uncertainty.

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What contract law applies? Can our planes take off from Heathrow?

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Nobody knows what legal rights there are for an EU citizen living here

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and vice versa. If there is no deal at the end of two years, it is quite

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bad for the European economy, therefore they think they have all

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the cards to play and they think if it is mishandled domestically in

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Britain than we have a crash. But there will be competing interests in

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Europe, the Baltic states, Eastern Europe, maybe quite similar of the

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Nordic states, that in turn different from the French, Germans

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or Italians. How will Europe come to a common view on these things? At

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the moment they are quite united backing a strong line, except for

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the polls and Hungarians who are the bad boys of Europe and the Irish who

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will do anything to keep us happy. We should remember their priority is

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not economics, they are not thinking how can they maximise trade with the

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UK, they are under threat. The combination of Trump and Brexit

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scares them. They want to keep the institutions strong. They also want

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to keep Britain. That is the one strong card we have, contributing to

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security. We know we won't be members of the single market, that

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was in the White Paper. The situation of the customs union is

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more complicated I would suggest. Does that have cost? If we can be a

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little bit pregnant in the customs union, does that come with a price

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ticket? We have got some clarity on the customs union, the Prime

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Minister said we would not be part of the... We would be able to do our

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own trade deals outside the EU customs union, and also not be part

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of the common external tariff. She said she is willing to look at other

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options and we don't know what that will be so as a think tank we are

:18:33.:18:36.

looking at this over the next few weeks and coming up with

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recommendations for the Government and looking at how existing

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boundaries between the EU customs union and other states work in

:18:43.:18:47.

practice. For example between Switzerland and the EU border,

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Norway and Switzerland, and the UK and Canada. We will want is a

:18:52.:18:56.

country the freedom to do our own free trade deals, that seems to be

:18:57.:19:03.

quite high up there, and to change our external tariffs to the rest of

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the world. If that's the case, we do seem to be wanting our cake and

:19:09.:19:13.

eating it in the customs union. Talking to some people in London, it

:19:14.:19:17.

is quite clear we are leaving the essentials of the customs union, the

:19:18.:19:22.

tariff, so even if we can minimise controls at the border by having

:19:23.:19:27.

mutual recognition agreements, so we recognise each other's standards,

:19:28.:19:30.

but there will still have to be checks for things like rules of

:19:31.:19:35.

origin and tariffs if tariffs apply, which is a problem for the Irish

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because nobody has worked out how you can avoid having some sort of

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customs control on the border between Northern Ireland and the

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South once we are out of the customs union. I think it's important we

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don't look at this too much as one side has to win and one side has to

:19:51.:19:56.

lose scenario. We can find ways. My Broadview is what we get out of the

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negotiation will depend on politics more than economic reality. Economic

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reality is strong, there's a good case for a trade deal on the

:20:03.:20:20.

solution on the customs deal, but Britain will need to come up with a

:20:21.:20:22.

positive case for our relationship and keep making that case. If it

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turns out the Government thinks the bill is too high, that we can't

:20:26.:20:28.

really get the free trade deal done in time and it's left hanging in the

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wind, what are the chances, how I as things stand now that we end up

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crashing out? I'd say there's a 30% chance that we don't get the free

:20:35.:20:38.

trade agreement at the end of it that Mrs May is aiming for. The very

:20:39.:20:44.

hard crash is you don't even do an Article 50 divorce settlement from

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you go straight to World Trade Organisation rules. The less hard

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crash is doing the divorce settlement and transitional

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arrangements would require European Court of Justice arrangements. We

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will leave it there. Thank you, both.

:21:03.:21:03.

Donald Trump's flagship policy of extreme vetting of immigrants

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and a temporary travel ban for citizens of seven mainly-muslim

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countries was stopped in its tracks this weekend.

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On Friday a judge ruled the ban should be lifted and that it

:21:11.:21:13.

That prompted President Trump to fire off a series of tweets

:21:14.:21:18.

criticising what he says was a terrible decision

:21:19.:21:20.

by a so-called judge, as he ordered the State Department

:21:21.:21:23.

Now the federal appeals court has rejected his request to reinstate

:21:24.:21:30.

the ban until it hears the case in full.

:21:31.:21:42.

Well yesterday I spoke to Sebastian Gorka, Deputy Assistant

:21:43.:21:46.

I asked him if the confusion over the travel ban

:21:47.:21:50.

was a sign that the President's two-week-old administration

:21:51.:21:52.

There is no chaos, you really shouldn't believe the spin, the

:21:53.:22:05.

facts speak for themselves. 109 people on Saturday were mildly

:22:06.:22:10.

inconvenienced by having their entry into the United States delayed out

:22:11.:22:17.

of 325,000. So let's not get carried away with the left-wing media bias

:22:18.:22:26.

and spin. Hold on, 60,000 - 90,000 people with visas, their visas are

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no longer valid. That's another issue. You need to listen to what

:22:31.:22:34.

I'm saying. The people who entered on the day of the executive order

:22:35.:22:40.

being implemented worth 109 people out of 325. Whether people won't

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travelling to America were affected is another matter, so there is no

:22:48.:22:56.

chaos to comment on. Following Iran's latest missile tests,

:22:57.:23:00.

National Security adviser Flint said the US was "Putting Iran on notice",

:23:01.:23:06.

what does that mean? It means we have a new president and we are not

:23:07.:23:09.

going to facilitate the rise of one of the most dangerous nations in the

:23:10.:23:16.

world. We are jettisoning this naive and dangerous policy of the Obama

:23:17.:23:24.

Administration to try and make the Shi'ite dictatorial democracy some

:23:25.:23:27.

kind of counter balance to extremist Sunni groups in the region and that

:23:28.:23:31.

they cannot continue to behave in the way they have behaved for the

:23:32.:23:36.

last 30 years. It is a very simple message. So are there any

:23:37.:23:42.

multilateral alliances that Mr Trump would like to strengthen?

:23:43.:23:48.

Absolutely. If we are looking at the region, if you listen to what

:23:49.:23:51.

President Trump has said and specifically to also the speeches of

:23:52.:23:56.

general Flint, his national security adviser, we are incredibly vested in

:23:57.:24:01.

seeing our Sunni allies in the region come together in a real

:24:02.:24:08.

coalition. The so-called vaunted 66 nation coalition that was created

:24:09.:24:14.

under the Obama administration... There was no coalition. But we want

:24:15.:24:18.

to help our Sunni allies, especially the Egyptians, the Jordanians, come

:24:19.:24:26.

together in a real partnership to take the fight to ISIS and groups

:24:27.:24:32.

like Al-Qaeda. But there is not a formal multilateral alliance with

:24:33.:24:37.

these countries. Which of the existing, formal multilateral

:24:38.:24:42.

alliances does Mr Trump wants to strengthen? If you are specifically

:24:43.:24:46.

talking about Nato, it is clear that we are committed to Nato but we wish

:24:47.:24:51.

to see a more equitable burden sharing among the nations that are

:24:52.:24:54.

simply not spending enough on their own defence so the gentleman 's

:24:55.:24:58.

agreement of 2% of GDP has to be stuck to, unlike the, I think it's

:24:59.:25:03.

only Six Nations that reach the standard today out of almost 30. So

:25:04.:25:07.

he does want to strengthen Nato then? Absolutely, he believes Nato

:25:08.:25:18.

is the most successful military alliances. You mustn't believe the

:25:19.:25:24.

spin and hype. EU leaders now see the Trump administration as a threat

:25:25.:25:29.

up there with Russia, China, terrorism. What's your response to

:25:30.:25:35.

that? I have to laugh. The idea that the nation that came to the

:25:36.:25:41.

salvation of Europe twice in the 20th century hummer in World War I

:25:42.:25:48.

and World War II, was central to the defeat of the totalitarian... It is

:25:49.:25:59.

not even worth commenting on. Would it matter to the Trump

:26:00.:26:03.

administration if the European Union broke up? The United States is very

:26:04.:26:06.

interested in the best relations possible with all the nations of the

:26:07.:26:14.

EU am a whether the European union wishes to stay together or not is up

:26:15.:26:19.

to the nations of the European Union. I understand that but I was

:26:20.:26:25.

wondering what the US view would be. Until Mr Trump, EU foreign policy

:26:26.:26:29.

was quite consistent in wanting to see the EU survive, prosper and even

:26:30.:26:34.

become more integrated. Now that doesn't seem to be the case, so

:26:35.:26:38.

would it matter to the Trump administration if the EU broke up? I

:26:39.:26:43.

will say yet again, it is in the interests of the United States to

:26:44.:26:46.

have the best relations possible with our European allies, and

:26:47.:26:50.

whether that is in the formation of the EU or if the EU by itself

:26:51.:26:54.

suffers some kind of internal issues, that's up to the European

:26:55.:26:59.

nations and not something we will comment on. Listening to that

:27:00.:27:04.

answer, it would seem as if this particular president's preference is

:27:05.:27:08.

to deal with individual nation states rather than multilateral

:27:09.:27:14.

institutions. Is that fair? I don't think so. There's never been an

:27:15.:27:21.

unequivocal statement by that effect by the statement. Does he share the

:27:22.:27:25.

opinion of Stephen Bannon that the 21st century should see a return to

:27:26.:27:30.

nation states rather than growing existing multilateral ways? I think

:27:31.:27:36.

it is fair to say that we have problems with political elites that

:27:37.:27:39.

don't take the interests of the populations they represent into

:27:40.:27:44.

account. That's why Brexit happened. I think that's why Mr Trump became

:27:45.:27:50.

President Trump. This is the connected phenomena. You are

:27:51.:27:54.

obsessing about institutions, it is not about institutions, it's about

:27:55.:27:58.

the health of democracy and whether political elites do what is in the

:27:59.:28:03.

interests of the people they represent. Given the

:28:04.:28:06.

unpredictability of the new president, you never really know

:28:07.:28:09.

what he's going to do next, would it be wise for the British Prime

:28:10.:28:14.

Minister to hitch her wagon to his star? This is really churlish

:28:15.:28:21.

questioning. Come on, you don't know what he's going to do next, listen

:28:22.:28:24.

to what he says because he does what he's going to say. I know this may

:28:25.:28:30.

be shocking to some reporters, but look at his campaign promises, and

:28:31.:28:34.

the fact that in the last 15 days we have executed every single one that

:28:35.:28:40.

we could in the time permissible so there is nothing unpredictable about

:28:41.:28:45.

Donald Trump as president. OK then, if we do know what he's going to do

:28:46.:28:51.

next, what is he going to do next? Continue to make good on his

:28:52.:28:55.

election promises, to make America great again, to make the economy are

:28:56.:29:01.

flourishing economy, and most important of all from your

:29:02.:29:06.

perspective in the UK, to be the best friend possible to our friends

:29:07.:29:10.

and the worst enemy to our enemies. It is an old Marine Corps phrase and

:29:11.:29:16.

we tend to live by it. Thank you for your time, we will leave it there.

:29:17.:29:23.

Doctor Gorka, making it clear this administration won't spend political

:29:24.:29:30.

capital on trying to keep the European Union together, a watershed

:29:31.:29:31.

change in American foreign policy. Theresa May has made a big deal out

:29:32.:29:34.

of her commitment to help people on middle incomes who are "just

:29:35.:29:37.

about managing", and early this week we should get a good sense

:29:38.:29:40.

of what that means in practice - when plans to bring down the cost

:29:41.:29:43.

of housing and protect renters are published in the Government's

:29:44.:29:46.

new white paper. The paper is expected to introduce

:29:47.:29:48.

new rules on building Communities Secretary Sajid Javid

:29:49.:29:51.

has previously said politicians should not stand in the way

:29:52.:29:56.

of development, provided all options Also rumoured are new measures

:29:57.:29:59.

to speed up building the 1 million new homes the Government promised

:30:00.:30:04.

to build by 2020, including imposing five-year quotas

:30:05.:30:06.

on reluctant councils. Reports suggest there will be

:30:07.:30:10.

relaxation of building height restrictions,

:30:11.:30:12.

allowing home owners and developers to build to the height

:30:13.:30:14.

of the tallest building on the block without needing to seek

:30:15.:30:17.

planning permission. Other elements trialled include

:30:18.:30:22.

new measures to stop developers sitting on parcels of land

:30:23.:30:26.

without building homes, land banking, and moving railway

:30:27.:30:28.

station car parks Underground, The Government today said it

:30:29.:30:30.

will amend planning rules so more homes can be built specifically

:30:31.:30:39.

to be rented out through longer term tenancies, to provide more stability

:30:40.:30:42.

for young families, alongside its proposed ban

:30:43.:30:44.

on letting agent fees. And the Housing Minister,

:30:45.:30:51.

Gavin Barwell, joins me now. Welcome to the programme. Home

:30:52.:31:01.

ownership is now beyond the reach of most young people. You are now

:31:02.:31:04.

emphasising affordable homes for rent. Why have you given up on the

:31:05.:31:09.

Tory dream of a property owning democracy? We haven't given up on

:31:10.:31:12.

that. The decline on home ownership in this country started in 2004. So

:31:13.:31:17.

far we have stopped that decline, we haven't reversed it but we

:31:18.:31:20.

absolutely want to make sure that people who want to own and can do

:31:21.:31:26.

so. The Prime Minister was very clear a country that works for

:31:27.:31:28.

everyone. That means we have to have say something to say to those who

:31:29.:31:32.

want to rent as well as on. Home ownership of young people is 35%,

:31:33.:31:37.

used to be 60%. Are you telling me during the lifetime of this

:31:38.:31:41.

government that is going to rise? We want to reverse the decline. We have

:31:42.:31:46.

stabilised it. The decline started in 2004 under Labour. They weren't

:31:47.:31:50.

bothered about it. We have taken action and that has stop the

:31:51.:31:55.

decline... What about the rise? We have to make sure people work hard

:31:56.:31:59.

the right thing have the chance to own their home on home. We have

:32:00.:32:03.

helped people through help to buy, shared ownership, that is part of

:32:04.:32:07.

it, but we have to have something to say to those who want to rent. You

:32:08.:32:11.

say you want more rented homes so why did you introduce a 3%

:32:12.:32:17.

additional stamp duty levied to pay those investing in build to rent

:32:18.:32:21.

properties? That was basically to try and stop a lot of the

:32:22.:32:25.

speculation in the buy to let market. The Bank of England raised

:32:26.:32:28.

concerns about that. When you see the white paper, you will see there

:32:29.:32:33.

is a package of measures for Bill to rent, trying to get institutional

:32:34.:32:40.

investment for that, different to people going and buying a home on

:32:41.:32:44.

the private market and renting out. You are trying to get institutional

:32:45.:32:48.

money to comment, just as this government and subsequent ones

:32:49.:32:51.

before said it would get pension fund money to invest in

:32:52.:32:54.

infrastructure and it never happened. Why should this happen? Is

:32:55.:32:58.

already starting to happen. If you go around the country you can see

:32:59.:33:01.

some of these builder rent scheme is happening. There are changes in the

:33:02.:33:06.

White Paper... How much money from institutions is going into bill to

:33:07.:33:17.

rent modular hundreds of millions. I was at the stock exchange the other

:33:18.:33:19.

day celebrating the launch of one of our bombs designed to get this money

:33:20.:33:22.

on. There are schemes being... There is huge potential to expand it. We

:33:23.:33:25.

need more homes and we are too dependent on a small number of large

:33:26.:33:28.

developers. -- to launch one of our bonds. You talk about affordable

:33:29.:33:35.

renting, what is affordable? Defined as something that is at least 20%

:33:36.:33:41.

below the market price. It will vary around the country. Let me put it

:33:42.:33:44.

another way. The average couple renting now have to spend 50% of

:33:45.:33:49.

their income on rent. Is that affordable? That is exactly what

:33:50.:33:53.

we're trying to do something about. Whether you're trying to buy or

:33:54.:33:56.

rent, housing in this country has become less and less affordable

:33:57.:34:00.

because the 30-40 years governments haven't built in times. This white

:34:01.:34:03.

Paper is trying to do something about that. You have been in power

:34:04.:34:08.

six, almost seven years. That's right. Why are ownership of new

:34:09.:34:16.

homes to 24 year low? It was a low figure because it's a new five-year

:34:17.:34:19.

programme. That is not a great excuse. It's not an excuse at all.

:34:20.:34:24.

The way these things work, you have a five-year programme and in the

:34:25.:34:26.

last year you have a record number of delivery and when you start a new

:34:27.:34:30.

programme, a lower level. If you look at the average over six years,

:34:31.:34:34.

this government has built more affordable housing than the previous

:34:35.:34:40.

one. Stiletto 24 year loss, that is an embarrassment. Yes. We have the

:34:41.:34:46.

figures, last year was 32,000, the year before 60 6000. You get this

:34:47.:34:49.

cliff edge effect. It is embarrassing and we want to stop it

:34:50.:34:55.

happening in the future. You want to give tenants more secure and longer

:34:56.:34:59.

leases which rent rises are predictable in advance. Ed Miliband

:35:00.:35:05.

promoted three-year tenancies in the 2015 general election campaign and

:35:06.:35:09.

George Osborne said it was totally economically illiterate. What's

:35:10.:35:14.

changed? You are merging control of the rents people in charge, which

:35:15.:35:19.

we're not imposing. We want longer term tenancies. Most people have

:35:20.:35:23.

six-month tenancies... Within that there would be a control on how much

:35:24.:35:28.

the rent could go up? Right? It would be set for the period of the

:35:29.:35:32.

tenancies. That's what I just said, that's what Ed Miliband proposed. Ed

:35:33.:35:36.

Miliband proposed regulating it for the whole sector. One of the reasons

:35:37.:35:41.

institutional investment is so attractive, if you had a spare home

:35:42.:35:46.

and you want to rent out, you might need it any year, so you give it a

:35:47.:35:50.

short tenancy. If you have a block, they are interested in a long-term

:35:51.:35:55.

return and give families more security. You have set a target,

:35:56.:36:02.

your government, to build in the life of this parliament 1 million

:36:03.:36:05.

new homes in England by 2020. You're not going to make that? I think we

:36:06.:36:13.

are. If you look at 2015-16 we had 190,000 additional homes of this

:36:14.:36:16.

country. Just below the level we need to achieve. Over five...

:36:17.:36:24.

2015-16. You were probably looking at the new homes built. Talking

:36:25.:36:30.

about completions in England. That is not the best measure, with

:36:31.:36:33.

respect. You said you will complete 1 million homes by 2020 so what is

:36:34.:36:39.

wrong with it? We use a national statistic which looks at new homes

:36:40.:36:43.

built and conversions and changes of use minus demolitions. The total

:36:44.:36:45.

change of the housing stock over that year. On that basis I have the

:36:46.:36:52.

figures here. I have the figures. You looking I just completed. 1

:36:53.:36:56.

million new homes, the average rate of those built in the last three

:36:57.:37:01.

quarters was 30 6000. You have 14 more quarters to get to the 1

:37:02.:37:06.

million. You have to raise that to 50 6000. I put it to you, you won't

:37:07.:37:10.

do it. You're not looking at the full picture of new housing in this

:37:11.:37:15.

country. You're looking at brand-new homes and not including conversions

:37:16.:37:19.

or changes of use are not taking off, which we should, demolitions.

:37:20.:37:24.

If you look at the National statistic net additions, in 2015-16,

:37:25.:37:30.

100 and 90,000 new homes. We are behind schedule. -- 190,000. I am

:37:31.:37:34.

confident with the measures in the White Paper we can achieve that. It

:37:35.:37:39.

is not just about the national total, we need to build these homes

:37:40.:37:43.

are the right places. Will the green belt remain sacrosanct after the

:37:44.:37:49.

white paper? Not proposing to change the existing protections that there

:37:50.:37:52.

for green belts. What planning policy says is councils can remove

:37:53.:37:57.

land from green belts but only in exceptional circumstances and should

:37:58.:37:59.

look at at all the circumstances before doing that. No change? No. We

:38:00.:38:06.

have a manifesto commitment. You still think you will get 1 million

:38:07.:38:12.

homes? The green belt is only 15%. This idea we can only fix our broken

:38:13.:38:16.

housing market by taking huge swathes of land out of the green

:38:17.:38:19.

belt is not true. We will leave it there, thank you for joining us,

:38:20.:38:22.

Gavin Barwell. It is coming up to 11.40.

:38:23.:38:24.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:38:25.:38:26.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead...

:38:27.:38:36.

Coming up in the North West:

:38:37.:38:39.

isn't rosy - the leasehold homes proving a thorn

:38:40.:38:44.

I just feel like I've been completely mis-sold, my house.

:38:45.:38:52.

If I knew that they could do this, I would never have

:38:53.:38:55.

But surely coming up roses in the studio are Jake Berry,

:38:56.:38:59.

the Conservative MP for Rossendale and Darwen,

:39:00.:39:01.

for Stalybridge and Hyde and Shadow Economic Secretary

:39:02.:39:04.

First, we have to start, don't we, with Brexit?

:39:05.:39:07.

Because this week MPs started divorce proceedings from the EU,

:39:08.:39:14.

but some Labour MPs defied the party leadership and voted

:39:15.:39:16.

Here's Luciana Berger on why she did just that.

:39:17.:39:25.

I listened to my constituents, even those who voted

:39:26.:39:30.

None of us were led to believe, in any way,

:39:31.:39:34.

shape or form that it would result in us leaving the single market.

:39:35.:39:37.

I didn't believe that at this moment in time

:39:38.:39:39.

trigger is fired, essentially there is no turning back.

:39:40.:39:43.

Where do you think this leaves the Labour leadership?

:39:44.:39:45.

There's many of us who've voted in different

:39:46.:39:47.

ways and everyone did so for principled reasons.

:39:48.:39:49.

Whether we voted for or against triggering Article

:39:50.:39:55.

50, we will all be coming together next week in order to support

:39:56.:39:58.

various amendments and put those amendments forward.

:39:59.:40:00.

Jonathan, what is the point of a three line whip when 47 Labour MPs

:40:01.:40:03.

I don't think any party was unanimous

:40:04.:40:06.

I don't think they should be, to be honest.

:40:07.:40:10.

This is probably, in fact not probably, it

:40:11.:40:13.

is fundamentally the biggest issue any of us will ever have to vote on

:40:14.:40:18.

in Parliament in our lifetimes, unless something even more serious

:40:19.:40:20.

and unexpected happens in the next few years

:40:21.:40:23.

and people will have to go on

:40:24.:40:24.

what they think was right and what their areas did and I think if

:40:25.:40:28.

colleagues felt that areas were Remain,

:40:29.:40:29.

they wanted to honour that

:40:30.:40:30.

For my part, I think if you have a referendum you have due

:40:31.:40:39.

-- to honour the result of that referendum.

:40:40.:40:41.

The only people who could legitimately say they weren't

:40:42.:40:43.

following that, maybe people like Ken Clarke

:40:44.:40:45.

who would've paused the

:40:46.:40:46.

referendum in the first place but if you have a referendum to decide

:40:47.:40:49.

these things, you have got to honour that and I think that is the right

:40:50.:40:52.

position for the party leaderships have but I understand people

:40:53.:40:55.

have had different, you know, different

:40:56.:40:56.

opinions on that based on

:40:57.:40:58.

what people in their areas were saying.

:40:59.:40:59.

We have got to respect that, that is what Parliament is about.

:41:00.:41:02.

Jake, there were some serious criticism of the 77 page white

:41:03.:41:05.

talk of the economy, a focus on immigration,

:41:06.:41:08.

taking back legislation but not enough on how the economy is

:41:09.:41:10.

We can't be too focused on this Article

:41:11.:41:16.

We have to now move on and start talking about the white paper

:41:17.:41:21.

and actually how that divorce is going to take place.

:41:22.:41:23.

Now, there has been some criticism of the white

:41:24.:41:25.

I actually thought overall it was an excellent document but I

:41:26.:41:31.

think what it shows us is that we need

:41:32.:41:33.

to change our language and

:41:34.:41:34.

start talking about how Britain leaving the European Union isn't

:41:35.:41:37.

just good for Britain but it is going to be good

:41:38.:41:39.

for Europe as well and I think that is the really

:41:40.:41:42.

refreshing part of the white paper is that it started talking about

:41:43.:41:45.

Britain not being part of the European Union but supporting a

:41:46.:41:48.

And like any deal you ever make, whether it

:41:49.:41:51.

be a divorce or whether it be a business deal or a political deal,

:41:52.:41:54.

both sides have to win and I think it's really refreshing that this

:41:55.:41:57.

week we have started saying actually how can Britain win but how

:41:58.:42:00.

can we also make sure our friends and colleagues in Europe will take

:42:01.:42:03.

You might remember a couple of weeks ago we reported on how

:42:04.:42:09.

the Brexit Secretary David Davis promised to meet our Metro Mayors

:42:10.:42:12.

Greater Manchester and the Liverpool City Region,

:42:13.:42:14.

that's Merseyside plus Halton, head to the polls in May.

:42:15.:42:17.

Our Merseyside political reporter, Claire Hamilton, has been finding

:42:18.:42:19.

out what the candidates there would like to tell Mr Davis.

:42:20.:42:23.

Trying to win votes after losing the fight

:42:24.:42:25.

Liberal Democrat candidate for Metro Mayor of the Liverpool City region.

:42:26.:42:32.

Whoever wins in May will be invited to sit round a table with the

:42:33.:42:42.

Government to push the city region's agenda post Brexit.

:42:43.:42:44.

The Liverpool City region has got the same

:42:45.:42:47.

population as Northern Ireland so what I would do, I would work with

:42:48.:42:50.

the government of Northern Ireland and work with the mayor of the

:42:51.:42:53.

Manchester City region as well to establish

:42:54.:42:54.

an embassy in Brussels but

:42:55.:42:55.

I think regardless of whether we are in

:42:56.:42:57.

the European Union or not, we

:42:58.:42:59.

need to recognise it is important for our trade and our industry

:43:00.:43:02.

One of my personal aspirations is to see this

:43:03.:43:05.

city region becoming massively global city

:43:06.:43:06.

region and playing on

:43:07.:43:09.

The Liverpool City region was divided by

:43:10.:43:11.

Liverpool, Wirral and Sefton voted to remain in the EU.

:43:12.:43:15.

Saint Helens, Knowsley and Holton voted to leave.

:43:16.:43:18.

Three of the candidates in this election actively campaign to stay

:43:19.:43:25.

Conservative Tony Caldeira didn't vote.

:43:26.:43:31.

At his cushion factory in Knowsley, he says it is

:43:32.:43:33.

I think it could have a huge impact if we

:43:34.:43:37.

can do the right trade deals for Liverpool City region.

:43:38.:43:39.

To use my own example, we deal with the US

:43:40.:43:42.

and if we had a better tariff with the US,

:43:43.:43:44.

That will create more jobs and more growth that

:43:45.:43:48.

would be my priority if

:43:49.:43:49.

I'm going to be the elected mayor of Liverpool.

:43:50.:43:51.

Labour's candidate hopes cash will flow to the city after

:43:52.:43:54.

What I would like to see is some of the promises

:43:55.:44:04.

that we had during the referendum come to fruition,

:44:05.:44:07.

money that is now being repatriated, apparently, to the UK, some of that

:44:08.:44:11.

should be used to do some of the things

:44:12.:44:13.

that we have identified in

:44:14.:44:14.

We need to have a world-class workforce, locally so we can attract

:44:15.:44:18.

some of the inward investment we need so that we can build, create

:44:19.:44:21.

that economic growth that our area is crying out for.

:44:22.:44:24.

Liverpool's wealth was built on global trade.

:44:25.:44:27.

The Green party candidate wants new green technology to replace

:44:28.:44:30.

I've made a clear commitment for strong

:44:31.:44:36.

environmental protection and also for maintaining workers' rights, at

:44:37.:44:38.

least at the level that they have been under within the EU.

:44:39.:44:42.

Now, I would be looking for investment in

:44:43.:44:45.

jobs in the low carbon sector so that we can start building a low

:44:46.:44:48.

Rays of light and choppy waters, a reflection of the post Brexit

:44:49.:44:54.

future for these would-be Metro Mayors.

:44:55.:44:57.

Also with us is John Leech, the only non-Labour councillor

:44:58.:45:02.

on Manchester City Council, and former Liberal Democrat

:45:03.:45:04.

Carl Cashman there calling for a regional

:45:05.:45:11.

body to represent the north-west in Brussels.

:45:12.:45:14.

The feeling is that the Liberal Democrats are not accepting

:45:15.:45:17.

that we are leaving the EU, because we are.

:45:18.:45:25.

I think we do accept that we will be leaving the EU but we are

:45:26.:45:28.

very keen to ensure that we don't go far hard Brexit and that we have a

:45:29.:45:32.

good relationship with Europe after we have left the European Union

:45:33.:45:35.

because as it stands at the moment, in Manchester

:45:36.:45:37.

and the north-west in

:45:38.:45:38.

general, most of our trade is with the European Union.

:45:39.:45:40.

And your thoughts on the white paper, then?

:45:41.:45:42.

Does that represent a hard Brexit, harder than you would've liked?

:45:43.:45:45.

Well, I think all the noises coming out from Theresa May for a hard

:45:46.:45:49.

Brexit and that is not what people voted for in the referendum.

:45:50.:45:55.

Is she entitled to devise the white paper that she has,

:45:56.:45:59.

Well, I think from the Lib Dems' point of

:46:00.:46:04.

view, a sort of bright pink blancmange like substance

:46:05.:46:06.

global Britain, they voted for a Britain

:46:07.:46:10.

that faces the world and

:46:11.:46:13.

actually there could be no better city to look

:46:14.:46:15.

history of being the gateway to America, to see what a new Britain

:46:16.:46:20.

It should be a globally facing Britain which looks

:46:21.:46:24.

to our Commonwealth as trading partners, looks to the United States

:46:25.:46:27.

earlier, still supports a strong European Union and I think the white

:46:28.:46:38.

paper set out very well a way in which we can achieve that.

:46:39.:46:41.

A lot of things in there, for example,

:46:42.:46:43.

leaving the customs union which people

:46:44.:46:44.

have been critical of, are

:46:45.:46:46.

absolutely vital to ensure that Britain is free to make our own

:46:47.:46:49.

But Ken Clarke wasn't the only one to describe the white

:46:50.:46:52.

Several MPs across Europe said it is just

:46:53.:46:55.

totally unrealistic so she's pitching for a deal that will not be

:46:56.:46:58.

I don't think anyone thinks that every single

:46:59.:47:02.

desire set out in the white paper will be achieved by the Government.

:47:03.:47:05.

It is saying the deal we are aiming for.

:47:06.:47:07.

What we need is a deal that has the majority of what Britain wants

:47:08.:47:11.

and needs so we can go on to succeed but there will have to be some give

:47:12.:47:15.

Europe will have to get some benefit as well from Britain.

:47:16.:47:19.

There is a concern, Jonathan, that at the moment the opposition are not

:47:20.:47:22.

in a position to adequately scrutinise and stand up to the

:47:23.:47:24.

Government because there is such disunity.

:47:25.:47:26.

No, that is the job of Parliament as a whole, by the way,

:47:27.:47:29.

What Theresa May has promised us in the white paper is

:47:30.:47:33.

that everything that is good about the European Union and none of the

:47:34.:47:36.

burdens in terms of paying anything in and indeed

:47:37.:47:38.

more from around the

:47:39.:47:39.

Now, what the white paper doesn't really tell us is how you go

:47:40.:47:43.

about delivering that, how can you have no

:47:44.:47:45.

frictionless of trade with the rest of Europe

:47:46.:47:47.

still and have no tariffs with other

:47:48.:47:49.

That's true, parts of it are directly contradictory, Jake,

:47:50.:47:52.

Well, you know, there are a lot of countries that are in a

:47:53.:47:56.

customs union or trade freely with Europe

:47:57.:47:58.

who also trade freely with

:47:59.:47:59.

the rest of the world, Turkey does, for example.

:48:00.:48:01.

So I think there are precedents out there.

:48:02.:48:03.

But we are not looking for a deal which any other

:48:04.:48:05.

The Prime Minister has been absolutely clear that in a

:48:06.:48:09.

country that works for everyone, we have to have a British deal with

:48:10.:48:12.

But I think, absolutely, we should be looking at doing free

:48:13.:48:17.

trade deals with the United States, we have gone from the back of the

:48:18.:48:21.

queue under President Obama to the front of the queue under President

:48:22.:48:23.

Australia, New Zealand, Canada, all sort of natural allies

:48:24.:48:27.

of Britain, we share a lot of things, including the same head of

:48:28.:48:30.

That is to deny that we're missing out though out what we've got.

:48:31.:48:36.

It's not whether these countries, we can do deals

:48:37.:48:38.

We can't yet, we have got to wait a few years.

:48:39.:48:48.

It's this political question for the House of

:48:49.:48:50.

Commons and the House of Lords to an extent

:48:51.:48:52.

as to what we will do and

:48:53.:48:54.

what the Americans will ask for, number one, is that they don't like

:48:55.:48:57.

the ban across the EU on home own treated beef so that is going

:48:58.:49:00.

Now, do our constituents want growth home

:49:01.:49:03.

We can say, yes, these countries we can do deals with them,

:49:04.:49:08.

we also have to make political choices and it is unclear really

:49:09.:49:11.

what the Government will do on those.

:49:12.:49:12.

And, John, was it disappointing from your perspective

:49:13.:49:14.

that two senior Lib Dems MPs abstained from the vote.

:49:15.:49:17.

The Lib Dems are now seen as the main party when it

:49:18.:49:20.

comes to opposing leaving the European Union, two of them

:49:21.:49:22.

There were two MPs that abstained but the whole party

:49:23.:49:26.

is united behind ensuring that people get a final vote on the final

:49:27.:49:29.

deal but is brought forward by Theresa May.

:49:30.:49:31.

We also very, very clear that people living in the EU,

:49:32.:49:35.

British citizens should be allowed to stay,

:49:36.:49:36.

EU citizens living in

:49:37.:49:37.

And we are wholly united on that and the

:49:38.:49:41.

ammendents that are being put forward as the bill goes forward.

:49:42.:49:45.

I suspect we will get full support from all

:49:46.:49:47.

There is an argument that this doesn't come from the

:49:48.:49:54.

heart when it comes from the Liberal Democrats, it is just a way

:49:55.:49:57.

of getting your stool out, being a bit different and gaining

:49:58.:50:00.

I think that is a bit of spin from the other

:50:01.:50:04.

We have always been the pro-European party.

:50:05.:50:06.

We have always been the ones committed to being part of Europe

:50:07.:50:09.

and trading freely with Europe and making sure that we can

:50:10.:50:12.

Why not put the final deal to the public?

:50:13.:50:19.

How can you have a negotiation where you are

:50:20.:50:21.

having a second referendum at the end of it?

:50:22.:50:23.

There is no incentive for Europe to negotiate with us if we

:50:24.:50:26.

might turn around and say actually we are staying.

:50:27.:50:28.

I can see where that desire comes from but how can

:50:29.:50:31.

I think, Jonathan makes a very good point there and

:50:32.:50:34.

what I would go and say is of course the final deal will be put

:50:35.:50:38.

to the House of Commons and I pick up

:50:39.:50:40.

on what Jonathan says, actually regardless of what political party

:50:41.:50:42.

you are, almost regardless of the whip, this is the biggest

:50:43.:50:45.

decision facing Britain for a generation,

:50:46.:50:46.

probably that we were ever know, certainly in my lifetime.

:50:47.:50:49.

Every member of Parliament, whichever

:50:50.:50:50.

party they are from, has to play an active role

:50:51.:50:53.

in scrutinising both the

:50:54.:50:53.

deal and the legislation that we are currently passing.

:50:54.:50:56.

And in truth, at the end of it, we will have a vote

:50:57.:50:59.

on whether it is a good or bad deal the Britain and I hope and believe

:51:00.:51:03.

that we will get the best deal for Britain but you are beginning to

:51:04.:51:06.

How can it not be an absolute nightmare when...

:51:07.:51:09.

Especially for the Labour Party, this was essentially a

:51:10.:51:11.

binary choice this week, do we say yes or no to Article 50?

:51:12.:51:15.

It is going to get really complicated when it

:51:16.:51:17.

comes to customs agreements, when it comes to immigration, when it comes

:51:18.:51:19.

How can you be an effective opposition?

:51:20.:51:22.

Well, because we have people from both sides,

:51:23.:51:25.

who are Labour voters on

:51:26.:51:31.

both sides of the referendum and actually if you like what this

:51:32.:51:34.

country needs, and I see this in my mailbag every week,

:51:35.:51:36.

I think it has actually got more divided since the

:51:37.:51:41.

referendum, some very bitter opinions being expressed.

:51:42.:51:42.

At least Labour can represent both sides of that debate and that is

:51:43.:51:45.

We can't have a sort of cultural wall between Remainers

:51:46.:51:49.

and Leavers, we have got to start thinking

:51:50.:51:50.

terms of what that future is, I think it is going to be an open

:51:51.:51:55.

That's not what everyone who voted Leave, if we are being honest,

:51:56.:51:59.

Why are Labour and the Tories so scared of giving people a

:52:00.:52:04.

Don't give us what we are asking for and we will stay.

:52:05.:52:12.

We had the referendum, people voted either to

:52:13.:52:14.

Remain or to Leave for all different reasons.

:52:15.:52:16.

When we actually get a deal on the table, we should have the

:52:17.:52:19.

trust in the people that they should then did a final say.

:52:20.:52:22.

But are you saying that if they reject it, John,

:52:23.:52:24.

We are going to have to leave it there, fellas.

:52:25.:52:31.

John Leech, many thanks for joining us.

:52:32.:52:34.

Next, when you're buying a house, it's reasonable to expect to know

:52:35.:52:38.

But home-buyers across the region are complaining that's

:52:39.:52:41.

Here in the North West we build more leasehold houses than anywhere else

:52:42.:52:45.

in the country, that means you still don't own

:52:46.:52:48.

the property outright, as you would with a freehold.

:52:49.:52:50.

When Katie from Ellesmere Port tried to turn her lease into freehold,

:52:51.:52:53.

Katie loves her house and her garden but it's who owns the land it sits

:52:54.:53:08.

I just feel like I've been completely mis-sold my

:53:09.:53:16.

If I knew they could do this, I would've never

:53:17.:53:19.

She bought from Bellway on a leasehold basis in 2014.

:53:20.:53:28.

Then Bellway sold the freehold on to a

:53:29.:53:30.

company called HomeGround, the result was a huge

:53:31.:53:32.

hike in the asking place from an initial ?4500

:53:33.:53:34.

What could stop them from selling it on to

:53:35.:53:37.

somebody else and then that

:53:38.:53:38.

Have they given you any justification for the difference?

:53:39.:53:42.

They have refused to give me a breakdown of

:53:43.:53:48.

Amazingly, Katie's isn't the only leasehold issue on this one estate.

:53:49.:53:59.

While some like her face high buyout charges,

:54:00.:54:01.

the issue for others is

:54:02.:54:02.

?30 a month, that is a lot of money to be

:54:03.:54:06.

This lady, who is too frightened to be

:54:07.:54:09.

identified, bought from Taylor Wimpey.

:54:10.:54:11.

Her lease included a clause doubling the ground rent every ten years.

:54:12.:54:15.

This year, the rent will go from ?175 to 350,

:54:16.:54:19.

That impacts on the freehold price that Taylor Wimpey sold on at

:54:20.:54:27.

So had it have been a flat ?175 a year and never

:54:28.:54:37.

But because of the doubling, that is where the

:54:38.:54:50.

massive, massive increase has come in.

:54:51.:54:51.

We were their customers and I don't feel like

:54:52.:54:53.

such, I feel like we have been a scapegoat for a bit more cash.

:54:54.:54:58.

Taylor Wimpey says it no longer sells properties with this doubling

:54:59.:55:01.

The local MP is calling for a crackdown on sales of leasehold

:55:02.:55:04.

There needs to be legislation, there is absolutely no need

:55:05.:55:08.

for these properties to be sold on leasehold in the current climate.

:55:09.:55:11.

I can understand that the flats but for the Dutch houses, there is no

:55:12.:55:14.

The Government told parliament last month it was

:55:15.:55:21.

I'm very keen to it explore how we can promote greater

:55:22.:55:24.

transparency and fairness and to work with all interested

:55:25.:55:26.

parties to improve leaseholders' experience of

:55:27.:55:28.

Katie already has 200 people on her estate, part of her

:55:29.:55:32.

They are worried that any new rules will be too late for them.

:55:33.:55:39.

Jake, you used to work in property law.

:55:40.:55:41.

Do you think legislation here is necessary?

:55:42.:55:43.

Well, I think we will have to look very carefully at it.

:55:44.:55:54.

The Government is about to come out with a housing white paper which is

:55:55.:55:57.

going to be a fundamental change to make sure we can

:55:58.:56:00.

But if you hear stories like that, you realise that this is an absolute

:56:01.:56:04.

And if the Government needs to legislate it,

:56:05.:56:07.

it certainly shouldn't shy away from doing so.

:56:08.:56:09.

People do have the ability to buy the freehold of their

:56:10.:56:11.

property under something called the leasehold franchising

:56:12.:56:13.

act which was brought in in the late 1980s.

:56:14.:56:15.

If we see that developers, as appears to be the case here,

:56:16.:56:18.

although I don't know all the details, are getting round that

:56:19.:56:21.

ability of people to buy and own the freehold of their own home,

:56:22.:56:24.

absolutely it is somewhere the Government

:56:25.:56:25.

Jonathan, people might be thinking, do you know what, when

:56:26.:56:29.

I bought my house, I read the small print,

:56:30.:56:31.

it's their responsibility to

:56:32.:56:32.

There is no service being offered here.

:56:33.:56:36.

I've had a personal experience of this when I bought a

:56:37.:56:39.

house in my constituency about ten years ago.

:56:40.:56:41.

It is quite common and people don't realise because when

:56:42.:56:43.

you are excited about a new home and you're

:56:44.:56:45.

thinking about moving in and

:56:46.:56:46.

perhaps you don't know the difference between leasehold and

:56:47.:56:48.

freehold if it is your first property, especially.

:56:49.:56:50.

I think there is a majority in the House of Commons to

:56:51.:56:55.

ban this kind of practice so let's hope we see some proposals because I

:56:56.:56:58.

We have seen action in other areas where

:56:59.:57:01.

fees have been unreasonable and I agree absolutely, Jonathan, that if

:57:02.:57:04.

we need to take action then there will be a coalition that will come

:57:05.:57:07.

together to make sure that this stops.

:57:08.:57:09.

The American President's made one or two headlines this week,

:57:10.:57:14.

With that and the rest of the week's news, here's Mike Stevens.

:57:15.:57:18.

Donald Trump's travel ban on visitors from seven mainly Muslim

:57:19.:57:20.

countries prompted protests in Preston, Manchester

:57:21.:57:22.

Even if we don't achieve all of our aims by

:57:23.:57:31.

solidarity is really, really important.

:57:32.:57:33.

Rail passengers in Merseyside face strike action

:57:34.:57:37.

over Merseyrail's plans to introduce driver-only trains.

:57:38.:57:38.

A meeting with the RMT union broke up without agreement.

:57:39.:57:45.

Cumbria hosted an event to help householders

:57:46.:57:47.

and businesses still affected by last winter's floods.

:57:48.:57:50.

Residents say not enough is being done.

:57:51.:57:52.

12 months on and we are still, we are not straight.

:57:53.:57:56.

It'll be another 12 months before we actually get

:57:57.:57:58.

The English Democrats want to abolish car parking charges

:57:59.:58:02.

Stephen Morris is the party's candidate in the election

:58:03.:58:07.

And BAE Systems signed an agreement worth ?100 million

:58:08.:58:12.

to help design fighter jets for Turkey in Lancashire.

:58:13.:58:15.

The Prime Minister and her Turkish counterpart sealed

:58:16.:58:18.

Let's talk quickly about flood recovery

:58:19.:58:28.

because you both live in

:58:29.:58:29.

constituencies where people have been badly affected.

:58:30.:58:32.

Why a year on from those bad floods are people

:58:33.:58:34.

I think in a lot of cases, the damage was so bad in

:58:35.:58:42.

villages, like in my constituency of Rossendale

:58:43.:58:44.

literally, virtually had to knock their house

:58:45.:58:47.

Do they feel that they are being adequately supported though, that

:58:48.:58:51.

There's been quite a lot of support and certainly I know both Jonathan

:58:52.:59:01.

and I, I'm sure, have been working with ensuring

:59:02.:59:03.

companies to make sure that

:59:04.:59:04.

people can get the access to funds but it just shows actually how

:59:05.:59:07.

If you think that over a year since the

:59:08.:59:11.

Boxing Day floods which affected parts of Lancashire and

:59:12.:59:13.

greater Manchester, it really takes a long time for people to recover.

:59:14.:59:15.

And same in Millbrook in Stalybridge last year.

:59:16.:59:17.

Absolutely, Millbrook and Hollingworth as well, the other side

:59:18.:59:20.

Insurance companies are relatively good in my

:59:21.:59:22.

experience, you know, the level of disruption,

:59:23.:59:24.

I think people if they haven't experienced it or seen it, the

:59:25.:59:27.

Do you think central government should be doing more?

:59:28.:59:30.

I think what a lot of people feel they need at the time, and it

:59:31.:59:34.

is very hard to see how this could be offered,

:59:35.:59:36.

is essentially a flood emergency service that comes and

:59:37.:59:38.

The fire brigade's job is different to that, it is not to get

:59:39.:59:45.

people back on their feet and I think council staff do

:59:46.:59:47.

a brilliant job but it is hard but I think more

:59:48.:59:50.

support, particularly the assurance that

:59:51.:59:51.

if you have been hit by a

:59:52.:59:53.

flood, it won't happen again, that's what people really want.

:59:54.:59:58.

I can't not ask you this, there has been reports

:59:59.:00:00.

this week that the English Democrats candidate for Manchester

:00:01.:00:02.

Mayor Stephen Morris said that he will invite Donald Trump to

:00:03.:00:05.

Manchester should he become the mayor of greater Manchester, I'm

:00:06.:00:08.

Should Donald Trump be invited on a state visit to

:00:09.:00:11.

I mean, going to Buckingham Palace might be one

:00:12.:00:15.

but coming to Manchester is an even bigger one.

:00:16.:00:17.

Well, I'm not a Greater Manchester MP but the last

:00:18.:00:22.

American president to come to Manchester was President Lincoln

:00:23.:00:24.

and I think maybe he's got a slightly better record

:00:25.:00:26.

What are your thoughts on the Prime Minister going out there

:00:27.:00:30.

and making friends with who essentially has been the most

:00:31.:00:32.

I don't think he is the most unpopular man

:00:33.:00:36.

I think it is really important that we do everything we

:00:37.:00:39.

can to make sure that the special relationship with Britain and

:00:40.:00:42.

We may not love who is in the White House,

:00:43.:00:45.

Was she a bit quick off the blocks to invite him on that state visit?

:00:46.:00:50.

The Prime Minister has a duty to go out there

:00:51.:00:53.

and ensure that Britain has a strong relationship with America

:00:54.:00:55.

which will become more important to us now Britain

:00:56.:00:57.

Has she jeopardised our reputation elsewhere?

:00:58.:01:00.

If the leaders of Germany, Canada, Australia can have that

:01:01.:01:04.

relationship, that pragmatic relationship but also say, you know,

:01:05.:01:06.

a picture of a American five year old child handcuffed at an airport,

:01:07.:01:09.

that's unacceptable, that's divisive and damaging

:01:10.:01:10.

to our national interests in terms of national

:01:11.:01:12.

I think she far too quick and I think she's unfortunately

:01:13.:01:16.

damanged the reputation of the country aboard.

:01:17.:01:18.

My thanks to Jake Berry and Jonathan Reynolds

:01:19.:01:22.

Lucy Powell and David Rutley join us next week.

:01:23.:01:25.

Now I'll hand you back to Andrew Neil in London.

:01:26.:01:28.

programme at another time an airport expansion, but thank you to both of

:01:29.:01:33.

you for being here. Back to you, Andrew.

:01:34.:01:39.

Will the Government's plan to boost house-building

:01:40.:01:43.

Could a handful of Conservative MPs cause problems for

:01:44.:01:46.

And what is President Trump going to do next?

:01:47.:01:51.

You have been following the genesis of this housing white paper. What do

:01:52.:02:09.

you make of it? I think it will be quite spectacular, pretty radical

:02:10.:02:13.

stuff. We heard bits about beating up on developers. I understand it

:02:14.:02:17.

will be a whack, walk, covering every single problem with housing

:02:18.:02:23.

supply and trying to solve it. Which means bad news if you are a huge fan

:02:24.:02:26.

of the green belt, because they will go round that the other way by

:02:27.:02:30.

forcing large quotas on councils are making it down to councils where

:02:31.:02:35.

they build. If you fill up your brown space in towns they will have

:02:36.:02:38.

to trigger the exceptional circumstances bit of the bill to

:02:39.:02:42.

beat on green belts. Beating up developers, opening up the market

:02:43.:02:46.

for renters across the board. And Theresa May, one of the most

:02:47.:02:51.

defining thing she could do on the domestic agenda. I am not as excited

:02:52.:02:57.

as Tom about this. I look back to 2004, do you remember the Kate

:02:58.:03:04.

Barker report? Successive governments, successive prime

:03:05.:03:08.

ministers have been promising to address the housing shortage. In

:03:09.:03:12.

2004 Kate Barker recommended hundreds of thousands new homes.

:03:13.:03:16.

Gordon Brown talked about 3 million new homes by 2020 in 2007. It never

:03:17.:03:22.

happens. The reason is at the end of the day this is local politics,

:03:23.:03:25.

local councillors need to keep their seats and they won't keep their

:03:26.:03:29.

seats if there are hugely controversial developments locally

:03:30.:03:33.

that they support. Yes, the government can and are proposing to

:03:34.:03:37.

overrule councils that don't back local developments, but they may

:03:38.:03:41.

find themselves completely inundated with those cases. I think that is

:03:42.:03:46.

the whole point of it, to take on those NIMBY often Tory councils and

:03:47.:03:50.

force them to build. I can't think of a better defining issue for

:03:51.:03:58.

Theresa May than sticking one in the eye of some quite well off half Tory

:03:59.:04:05.

countryside councils. The government gives councils a quota of homes they

:04:06.:04:08.

have to fill, if they don't have to fill that all run out overland to

:04:09.:04:12.

fill the quota, the government then comes in and tells them they have to

:04:13.:04:16.

built on the green belt? How is that going to work? At the moment the

:04:17.:04:20.

green belt is absolutely sacrosanct in British politics. They'll have to

:04:21.:04:24.

do some work on educating people on what green belts means. Potato

:04:25.:04:30.

farms, golf courses... At the moment the idea people have of the green

:04:31.:04:35.

belt being verdant fields needs to be dismantled. You are right. I

:04:36.:04:40.

agree with Tom, 11 million people in the private rental sector in the UK.

:04:41.:04:44.

In the last election more voted Labour than conservative. This is an

:04:45.:04:48.

area where Theresa May would look to expand her vote. The problem has

:04:49.:04:53.

always been, the same problem we have with pension policy and why

:04:54.:04:57.

pensioners have done better than working families in recent years.

:04:58.:05:00.

They are older and they vote more and anything to the detriment of

:05:01.:05:08.

older people. I wonder how they will get private money to come in on

:05:09.:05:12.

anything like this go they would need to have a huge expansion? There

:05:13.:05:18.

is a huge amount of speculation and one of the thing that locks up the

:05:19.:05:22.

system as you have people buying land, taking out a stake of land in

:05:23.:05:26.

the hope that one point it may at some point free up. At the end of

:05:27.:05:29.

the day, unless you have councils far more willing to quickly fast

:05:30.:05:33.

track these applications, which they won't for the reason I said before,

:05:34.:05:37.

it's a very long-term investment. Ed Miliband proposed three-year leases

:05:38.:05:44.

in which the rent could only go up by an agreed formula, probably the

:05:45.:05:49.

three years to give the young families a certain stability over

:05:50.:05:54.

that period. He had a use it or lose it rules for planning development,

:05:55.:05:58.

if you don't use it you lose the planning rights. Somebody else gets

:05:59.:06:02.

it. The Tories disparaged that at the time. This is at the centre of

:06:03.:06:07.

their policy now. This is probably item number four of

:06:08.:06:11.

Ed Miliband's policy book Theresa May has wholesale pinched in the

:06:12.:06:15.

last six months or so. Why not? I think if you look at the change in

:06:16.:06:20.

mood across housing and planning over the last 5-6 years, it used to

:06:21.:06:25.

be an issue very much of green belt versus London planners. Now you have

:06:26.:06:29.

grandparents living in houses in the countryside, knowing their

:06:30.:06:31.

grandchildren can't get on the housing ladder any longer. Maybe a

:06:32.:06:38.

bit more intervention in the market, tougher on renting conditions, maybe

:06:39.:06:40.

that is exactly what the country needs. Will they meet the 1 million

:06:41.:06:46.

target? It would be a defiance of every political thing that has

:06:47.:06:49.

happened in the last ten years. I think Tom is right, if there is only

:06:50.:06:54.

one difference between Theresa May and David Cameron it's the

:06:55.:06:57.

willingness of the state to intervene. When Ed Miliband said

:06:58.:07:03.

that he was seen as communism, but Theresa May can get away with it.

:07:04.:07:08.

How serious is this talk of a couple of dozen Tories who were very loyal

:07:09.:07:15.

over voting for the principle of Article 50 but may now be tempted to

:07:16.:07:20.

vote for some amendments to Article 50 legislation that they would find

:07:21.:07:25.

quite attractive? I think that threat has certainly been taken

:07:26.:07:29.

seriously by levers. I spoke to the campaign group Leaves Means Leave

:07:30.:07:35.

last night. The figure they mentioned was up to 20 remaining

:07:36.:07:38.

Tories. That sounds a lot to me but that is what they are concerned

:07:39.:07:41.

about and those Tories would come together with Labour and the SNP to

:07:42.:07:47.

vote for that amendment. Although that amendment sounds rather nice

:07:48.:07:50.

and democratic, actually in the eyes of many levers that is a wrecking

:07:51.:07:55.

amendment. Because what you are doing is giving Parliament a sort of

:07:56.:07:59.

veto over whatever deal Theresa May brings back. What they want is the

:08:00.:08:03.

vote to be before that deal is finalised. It isn't necessarily the

:08:04.:08:08.

case that if Parliament decided they didn't like that deal we would just

:08:09.:08:13.

go to WTO, we would fall out of the European Union. There are mixed

:08:14.:08:16.

views as to whether we might remain in and things could be extended. My

:08:17.:08:21.

understanding is the people making the amendments, they won any deal

:08:22.:08:28.

that is done to be brought to Parliament in time, so that if

:08:29.:08:33.

Parliament fancies it it's done, but if it does and it doesn't just mean

:08:34.:08:37.

go to WTO rules. There will be time to go back, renegotiate or think

:08:38.:08:42.

again? The question is where it puts Britain's negotiating hand. Nine of

:08:43.:08:48.

the options... Once we trigger Article 50 the two negotiation

:08:49.:08:53.

begins on the power switches to Europe. They can run out the clock

:08:54.:08:56.

and it will be worse for us than them. I don't think either option is

:08:57.:08:59.

particularly appealing. I think what seems like a rather Serena week for

:09:00.:09:04.

Article 50 this week isn't going to be reflective of what will happen

:09:05.:09:09.

next. The way the government's position is at the moment, if at the

:09:10.:09:12.

end the only choice Parliament has is to vote for the deal or crash out

:09:13.:09:17.

on WTO rules, then even the remainder is going to vote for the

:09:18.:09:20.

deal even if they don't like it, because they would regard crashing

:09:21.:09:24.

out as the worst of all possible results. Possibly. It will be a

:09:25.:09:31.

great game of bluff if Theresa May fights off any of these amendments

:09:32.:09:34.

on Wednesday and gets a straightforward deal or no Deal

:09:35.:09:38.

vote. I have a funny feeling this amendment, if it's chosen, we must

:09:39.:09:41.

remember because we don't know if they will choose this amendment, if

:09:42.:09:46.

it does go to a vote on Wednesday it will be very tight indeed. Remember,

:09:47.:09:51.

one final thing Theresa May can do if she gets Parliament voting

:09:52.:09:56.

against, as Isabel would have it, she could try to get a new

:09:57.:09:59.

parliament and go for a general election. And probably get a huge

:10:00.:10:06.

majority to do so. The Lords, it goes there after the February

:10:07.:10:12.

recess. They are very pro-Europe, but does their instinct for

:10:13.:10:21.

self-preservation override that? I think that is it. A Tory Lord said

:10:22.:10:26.

this morning I will vote to block it on a conscience measure, but you

:10:27.:10:29.

have the likes of Bill Cash, veteran Eurosceptics, suddenly converted to

:10:30.:10:34.

the Lords reform saying is an outrage. I doubt they will vote for

:10:35.:10:39.

their own demise, to hasten their own demise by blocking it. What did

:10:40.:10:46.

you make of Doctor Gorka smart fascinating. Cut from the same cloth

:10:47.:10:50.

as his boss. I thought it was extraordinary listening to him,

:10:51.:10:53.

saying everything is going dutifully to plan. But at the end of the day,

:10:54.:10:57.

what they are doing is what people in America voted for Trump to do. If

:10:58.:11:01.

you look at Lord Ashcroft's polling on why America voted for Trump, they

:11:02.:11:05.

went into this with their eyes wide open. One of the top fears among

:11:06.:11:12.

American voters, particularly Republican leading ones was

:11:13.:11:14.

America's immigration policy is or could be letting in terror arrests.

:11:15.:11:18.

As far as he is concerned, he is doing what he was elected to do.

:11:19.:11:23.

This whole year is turning into a wonderful year long lecture series

:11:24.:11:26.

on how democracy works at a fundamental level. I'm not sure

:11:27.:11:29.

anyone wanted it but it's what we've got. This same in the way we've been

:11:30.:11:35.

talking about direct democracy and Parliamentary democracy. The same is

:11:36.:11:40.

happening in America between executive and judicial branches. We

:11:41.:11:43.

are seeing the limits of presidential power. Regardless of

:11:44.:11:46.

the fact that people voted for Trump they voted for senators. The judge

:11:47.:11:50.

who blocks this was appointed by George W Bush. So-called Judge

:11:51.:11:58.

Eckert Mac so-called George W Bush! It's fascinating we're having all

:11:59.:12:00.

these conversations now that I never bought five years ago we would be

:12:01.:12:05.

having at such a fundamental level. Has the media yet worked out how to

:12:06.:12:10.

cover the Trump administration or has he got us behaving like headless

:12:11.:12:14.

chickens? He says something incendiary and we all run over to do

:12:15.:12:19.

that and when you pick it off it turns out not to be as incendiary as

:12:20.:12:23.

we thought? And then back doing something and we all rush over

:12:24.:12:27.

there. Is he making fools of us? Is exactly what he did in the election

:12:28.:12:34.

campaign. So many quick and fast outrageous comments frontrunner on a

:12:35.:12:37.

daily basis, no one single one of them had full news cycle time to be

:12:38.:12:41.

pored over and examined. I think there is a problem with this.

:12:42.:12:44.

Although he keeps the upper hand, keeps the agenda and keeps on the

:12:45.:12:49.

populist ground, the problem is it easy to campaign like that. If you

:12:50.:12:53.

are governing in a state of semi-hysteria, I wonder how long the

:12:54.:12:56.

American public will be comfortable with that. They don't really want

:12:57.:12:59.

their government to be swirling chaos all the time, as fascinating

:13:00.:13:04.

as it might be on TV. They will be exhausted by it, I already am. I

:13:05.:13:11.

have been interviewing White House administration official since 1976

:13:12.:13:13.

and that is the first time someone hasn't given me a straight answer on

:13:14.:13:17.

America supporting the EU. That is a different world.

:13:18.:13:19.

Jo Coburn will be on BBC Two tomorrow at midday with

:13:20.:13:23.

the Daily Politics - and I'll be back here

:13:24.:13:25.

Remember, if it's Sunday - it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:26.:14:04.

TV: He's not your father. WOMAN GASPS

:14:05.:14:17.

so why not pay your TV licence in weekly instalments, too?

:14:18.:14:30.

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