19/03/2017 Sunday Politics North West

It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

She faces huge political fights over Brexit, Scottish independence,

After a tumultuous political week, we'll analyse the PM's prospects.

With chatter increasing about a possible early General Election,

Jeremy Corbyn's campaign chief joins me live.

NHS bosses warn health services in England are facing "mission

impossible" and waiting times for operations will rocket,

unless hospitals are given more cash this year.

The chief executive of NHS Providers joins me live.

Move over George Clooney and Julia Roberts,

make way for Burley and Wigan - our councils in Cannes for some

All that to come before 12:15pm, and I'll also be talking

to the former leader of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg

from his party's spring conference in York.

With me here in the studio, throughout the programme,

three of the country's top political commentators:

Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

They'll be tweeting their thoughts using #bbcsp.

So, the political challenges facing Theresa May are stacking up.

As well as negotiating Britain's exit from the EU,

the PM must now deal with SNP demands for a second referendum

on Scottish independence, backbenchers agitating against cuts

to school budgets, and a humiliated Chancellor forced to u-turn on a key

budget measure just one week after announcing it.

Here's Adam Fleming on aturbulent political week

Monday, 11:30am, TV crews gather in the residence of the First

Minister of Scotland, who's got a surprise.

She wants a vote on whether Scotland should leave the UK

By taking the steps I have set out today I am ensuring that Scotland's

future will be decided, not just by me, the

Scottish Government, or the

SNP, it will be decided by the people of Scotland.

Westminster, 6:25pm the same day, MPs reject

amendments to the legislation authorising the Prime Minister to

The Bill ceremonially heads to the Lords where peers abandoned

attempts to change it and it becomes law.

But Downing Street doesn't trigger Article 50 as many had expected.

Some say they were spooked by Nicola Sturgeon.

We get an e-mail from the Treasury can the

We get an e-mail from the Treasury cancelling

the planned rise in National Insurance for

the self-employed announced the budget.

It's just minutes before Prime Minister's Questions at noon.

The trend towards greater self-employment does create a

We will bring forward further proposals

but we will not bring forward increases to NICs later in this

It seems to me like a government in a bit of chaos here.

By making this change today we are listening to our colleagues

fulfil both the letter and the spirit of our manifesto tax

Thursday, 7am, Conservative campaign HQ and the

Electoral Commission fines the party ?70,000 for misreporting spending

But that's not what the Prime Minister

Because at 12:19pm she gives her verdict on a

We should be working together, not pulling apart.

We should be working together to get that

right deal for Scotland, that

So, as I say, that's my job as Prime Minister and

so for that reason I say to the SNP now is not the time.

Friday and time for the faithful to gather.

SNP activists at their spring conference

Conservatives in Cardiff to hear the Prime Minister

promote her plan for a more meritocratic Brexit Britain.

At 11:10am comes some news about a newspaper that's frankly

I'm thrilled and excited to be the new editor of The

Evening Standard and, you know, with so many

big issues in our world what

good analysis, great news journalism.

It's a really important time for good journalism that The

Evening Standard is going to provide.

There was no let-up yesterday as Gordon Brown launched proposals

Under my proposals we keep the Barnett

Formula, we keep the fiscal transfers, but we also bring the

and fisheries back to the Scottish Parliament.

And just think, all this and we're still counting down to the

What a week in politics. It has been a torrid week for the government,

Isabel Oakeshott, but does Theresa May shake it off, or is this a sign

of worse to come? We may all be feeling a bit breathless after the

events of last week and we are in for a a long war of attrition with

the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon's strategy will be to foster over lengthy

periods of time as much resentment and anger as she can in Scotland and

try to create the impression that independence is somehow inevitable.

Is Scotland the biggest challenge for Theresa May in the next year or

so? I think it probably is because if you look at how relatively easily

the Brexit bill went through on an issue where people could hardly feel

more passionate in the Commons, and actually despite all the potential

drama it has gone through quite smoothly. To go back to your

original question, she just carries on. Don't underestimate the basic

quiet and will towards Theresa May amongst the majority of Tory

backbenchers. Yes, there are difficult little issues over school

funding, sorry, it's not a little issue, it is a big one but she will

get over that and treat each thing as it comes and keep pressing on.

Has she not called Nicola Sturgeon's Bluff in that the First Minister

said I want a referendum, here is roughly when I wanted, the Prime

Minister says you're not having one. What happens next? She has done

quite well and impact the progress Theresa May made this week in

frustrating Nicola Sturgeon was evident when Nicola Sturgeon said,

OK, maybe we can talk about the timing after. Nicola Sturgeon has

already been the first one to blink. I would slightly disagree with

Isabel Oakeshott, I don't agree Scotland will be the biggest hurdle

for her. What this week showed as is Theresa May... It was a reality

bites week. Theresa May is juggling four mammoth crises at the same

time, Brexit obviously which I still think will be the biggest challenge

to get a good deal, Trump left field who popped up at GCHQ on Friday and

Scotland and the fiscal challenge, this enormous great problem, and it

reinforced the point this is not an easy time in politics. The budget is

over four years. That was one small problem, the immediate problem is

how to fill the social care crisis and the ageing demographic. This is

not normal times in British politics and Theresa May does not have a

normal workload on her plate, hence why I think we will see more

mistakes made as time goes on and as she has this almost impossible

workload to juggle. How tempted do you think the Prime Minister is to

call an early election? There is more chatter about it now. Is she

tempted and if there is will she succumb? I will answer that in a

second as Harold Wilson used to say. I want to agree, disagree with the

rest of the panel about how she has out manipulated Nicola Sturgeon this

week. I think Nicola Sturgeon expected Theresa May to say no to

her expected timetable. It would be amazing if she had said yes. She

expected her to say no but Sturgeon catalyst that will fuel support for

her cause. There is no sign of that. The latest poll this morning shows

66-44 against independence and only 13% think they would be better off

with an independent Scotland and a clear majority do not want a second

referendum. But the calculation of resistance from Westminster combined

with Brexit which hasn't started yet, I think this is her

calculation, she didn't expect Theresa May to say, sure, go ahead,

I'm sure she expected Theresa May to say no, you can't have it at your

desired timetable. On the wider point, I think Theresa May is in a

fascinating position, she is both strong because she faces weak

opposition and is ahead in the opinion polls. But faces the most

daunting agenda of any Prime Minister for 40 or 50 years, I

think. So it's a weird combination. I don't think she wants to call an

election. I don't think she has thought about how you would

manipulate it, what the trigger would be, and whether she's got the

energy and space to prepare for and then mount a campaign was beginning

the Brexit negotiation. Now, you could see the cause would be the

small majorities that will make her life hellish, which it will do.

Whether a landslide would help is another question, they can be

difficult too. But I think the problems outweigh the advantages of

going early. Do you think she would go for an early election? I don't

and I think you have to look at the rhetoric coming out of No 10 which

is so firm on this question, it is a delicious prospect for us as

commentators to think there might be an election around the corner but

they are so firm on this I can't see it happening. I agree, we are in

unanimous agreement on this one. It is superficially attractive because

she would love the big majority and she would get a lot more through

Parliament especially with Brexit. The nitty-gritty of it makes an

early General Election this year almost impossible. How do you write

a manifesto on high Brexit versus soft Brexit, it opens up a Pandora's

box of uncertainties. And there is enough with the European elections.

The EU will say are we negotiating with you or the person who may

replace you? How do you keep the Tory party united going to an

election? How do you call one, with a vote of no confidence in yourself

you may end up losing. Easy on paper but difficult in practice. We shall

see. So if Theresa May did go

for an early election this spring, The party's campaigns

and elections chief Andrew Gwynne Andrew Gwynne, the government, as we

have just been talking about, executed one of the most

embarrassing U-turns in recent history this week. It has been a

torrid time for the Theresa May government. Why are the Tories still

so chipper? The Labour Party has been on an

early election footing since before Christmas and we are preparing

ourselves for that eventuality in case that does come. That means that

we've got to get ourselves into a position whereby we can not only

challenge the government but we can also offer a valuable alternative

for the British people to choose from should that election arise. So,

would you welcome an early General Election? Well, of course, I don't

want this government to be in power so of course if there is an

opportunity to put a case to the British people as to why there is a

better way, and I believe the Labour way is the better way than of course

we would want to put that case to the country. So, would Labour vote

in the Commons for an early election? Well, of course as an

opposition, not wanting to be in opposition, wanting to be in

government should the government put forward a measure in accordance with

the Fixed-term Parliaments Act then that's something we would very

seriously have to consider. I know you would have to consider it but

would you vote for an early election or not? Well, of course we want to

be the government so if the current government puts forward measures to

bring forward a General Election we would want to put our case to the

British public and that's one of the jobs that I've been given, together

Labour Party organisation early into a position where we can fight a

General Election -- organisationally. For the avoidance

of doubt, if the Government work to issue a motion in the Commons for an

early election, the Labour Party would vote for an early election?

It would be very difficult not, Andrew. If the Government wants to

dissolve parliament, wants a General Election, we don't want the Tories

in government, we want to be in government and we want to have that

opportunity to put that case to the British people.

Are you ready for an early election? You say you have been on a war all

but since the Labour conference last autumn, but are you ready for one?

How big is the election fighting fund? We have substantial amounts of

money in our fighting fund, that is true, because not only has the

Labour Party managed to eliminate its own financial deficit that it

inherited from previous election campaigns, we have also managed to

build up a substantial fund in the off chance we have an election. We

have also expanded massively operations at Labour HQ, we are

taking on additional staff, and one of the jobs that myself and Ian

Lavery who I job share with are currently doing is to go around the

Parliamentary Labour Party to make sure that Labour colleagues have the

support and the resources that they need, should they have to face the

electorate in their constituencies. So you are on a war footing, ready

for the fight, you say you would vote for the fight, so have you got

your tax and spend policies ready to roll out? That is something the

shadow Treasury team will be discussing. One of the things is, if

there is an early General Election, the normal timetable for these

things gets fast-track because our policy decision-making body, its

annual conference, we have the national policy forum that creates

policies suggestions. You have been on a war footing since the last

Labour conference, that is what Mr Corbyn told us. So you must have a

fair idea of what policies you would fight an early election on. How much

extra per year would you spend on the NHS? Well, look, I'm not going

to set out the Labour manifesto for an election that hasn't been called.

I'm just asking you about the NHS. You must have a policy for that. We

have a policy for the NHS. So how much extra? I will not set out

Labour's tax-and-spend policies here on The Sunday Politics when there

hasn't even been election called. You said you had been on a war

footing and you are prepared to vote for one, so if you can't Tommy that,

can you tell me what the corporation rate tax on company profits be under

a Labour government -- tell me that. You will have to be patient. I have.

And wait for Mrs May to trigger an early election. If there is an

election on the 4th of May the rich would have to be issued on the 27th

of March, so that's not long to wait. If that date passes we aren't

having an election on the 4th of May and the normal timetable for policy

development will continue. All right. You lost Copeland, I think

you were in charge of a by-election for Labour, your national poll

ratings are still dire, even after week of terrible times for the

Tories. Sometimes you even lose local government by-elections in

safe seats, including in the place you are now, in Salford. How long

does Mr Corbyn have to turn this around? Well, look, the issue of the

Labour leadership was settled last year. The last thing the Labour

Party now needs is another period of introspection with the Labour Party

merely talks to the Labour Party. We are now on an election footing in

case Mrs May does trigger an early General Election. We need to be

talking to the British people are not to ourselves. So any speculation

about the Labour leadership might excite you in the media but actually

for us in the Labour Party it's about re-engaging and reconnecting

with the voters. Rather than being excited, I feel quite daunted at the

prospect of an early election. So I wouldn't get that right. Normally,

given the number of mistakes this government has made, and its

mid-term, you would expect any self-respecting opposition to be

about ten points ahead. On the latest polls this morning you are 17

behind. There is a 27-30 point gap from where you should normally be as

an opposition. Are you telling me that if that doesn't change, you

still fight the General Election with Mr Corbyn?

These are matters for the future. I believe the leadership issue was

settled last year. We have had two leadership contest in two years.

Would you seriously contemplate going into the next election, if it

is early I perfectly understand Jeremy Corbyn is your man, but if it

is not until 2020, and you are still 17 points behind in the polls, will

you go into the next election like that? There is a lot of future

looking and speculation there, I don't know what the future holds,

where the Labour Party will be in 12 months let alone by 2020 summit

cross those bridges when we come to it. My main challenge is to make

sure the Labour Party is in the best possible place organisationally to

fight an election, that's my challenge and I'm up for that to

make sure we are in the best possible place to make sure Labour

returns as many Labour MPs as possible. Thank you for joining us.

And we're joined now from the Liberal Democrats' spring

conference in York by the former Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg.

Good morning. In his conference speech today, Tim Farron lumps

Theresa May with Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump. In

what way is Mrs May similar to Marine Le Pen? Of course he is not

saying Theresa May is identical to Marine Le Pen, I think what Tim

Wilby spelling out shortly in his speech is that we need to be aware

what's going on in the world, the International settlement that was

arrived at after the First World -- Second World War, that bound

supranational organisations is under attack from characters as diverse as

Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump, and that by side in so

ostentatiously with Donald Trump and pursuing this very hard Brexit,

Theresa May appears to be giving succour to that much more

isolationist chauvinist view of the world than the multilateral approach

that Britain has subscribed to for a long time. The exact words he plans

to use are welcome to the New World order, Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump,

Marine Le Pen, Theresa May, aggressive and teenage to, anti-EU,

nationalistic. In what way is Mrs May fitting into any of that? In

what way is she similar to Vladimir Putin? I'm not aware she has

interfered with other people's elections. The clue is in the quote

you just read out, which is the world order. The world order over

the last half century or more, by the way a lesson I'm afraid we have

to learn in Europe because of the terrible bloodshed of two world was

in the space of a few decades, was based on the idea might is not

right. Strong arm leaders cannot throw their weight around. What we

have now with Putin, the populism across parts of Europe and Donald

Trump who thinks the EU will unravel is a shift to a radically different

view of the world. Mrs May doesn't think any of that. She is not

antenatal, not anti-EU, she says she wants the EU to succeed. She's not

aggressive as far as I'm aware so I'm not sure why you would lump the

British Prime Minister in with these other characters. Let me explain, by

choosing this uncompromising approach to Brexit, clearly in doing

so she, in my view, maybe not yours or others, is pursuing a self

harming approach to the United Kingdom but also pulling up the

threads that bind the rest of the European Union together, in so

ostentatiously siding with Donald Trump, somehow declaring in my view

speciously that we can make up with the trade we will lose, she's not

challenging the shift to a more chauvinist approach to world affairs

that is happening in many places. You are at your party's Spring

conference, I think we can agree any Lib Dem come back will take a long

time. Would Tory dominance be more effectively challenged by a

realignment of the centre and the centre-left? Are you working towards

that? I missed half the question but I think you are talking about a

realignment. As a cook a way to get over Tory dominance, would you want

that to happen? Are you working towards that? My view is the

recovery of the Lib Dems will be quicker than you suggest. People

often forget that even the low point of our fortunes in the last election

we still got a million more votes than the SNP, it's only because we

have got this crazy electoral system... But the SNP fight in

Scotland, you fight in the whole country! But I'm saying the way

seats are allocated overlooks the fact that 2.5 million still voted

for us. But my own view is of course there are people feeling

increasingly homeless in the liberal wing of the Conservative Party

because they are now in a party which is in effect indistinguishable

from Ukip on some of the biggest issues of the day, and homeless folk

on the rational, reasonable wing of the Labour Party. I would invite

them to join the Liberal Democrats and I would invite everyone across

parties to talk about the idea is that bind us because the Westminster

village can invest a lot of energy building new castles in the sky,

inventing new names for parties when actually what you want is for people

on the progressive centre ground of British politics to talk about the

ideas that unite them, from the dilemmas of artificial intelligence

to climate change. Do you think in your own view, can Brexit still be

thwarted or is it now a matter of getting the best terms? I think we

are in an interlude, almost a calm between two storms, the storm of the

referendum itself and the collision between the Government's stated

ambitions for Brexit and the reality of having to negotiate something

unworkable with 27 other governments. The one thing I can

guarantee you is that what the Government has promised to the

British people cannot happen. Over a slower period of time we will work

out our new relationship with the European Union. Theresa May said she

will settle divorce arrangements, and pensions, so one, negotiate new

trade agreements, new climate change policies and so on, and have all of

that ratified within two years, that will not happen so I think there

will be a lot of turbulence in the next couple of years. Will you use

this turbulence to try to thwart Brexit, to find a way of rolling

back the decision? It's not about repeating the debates of the past or

thwarting the will of the people but it is comparing what people were

promised from the ?350 million for the NHS every week through to this

glittering array of new trade agreements we will sign across the

world, with the reality that will transpire in the next couple of

years and at that point, yes it is my belief people should be able to

take a second look at if that is what they really want. A couple of

quick questions, would you welcome an early general election? I always

welcome them, we couldn't do worse than we did last time. That is

certainly true. You have a column in the Evening Standard, have you

spoken to the new editor about whether he will keep your column or

spike it? No, I wait in nervous anticipation. Can you be a newspaper

editor in the morning and an MP in the afternoon? Do I think that's

feasible? Sorry, I missed a bit. There is no prohibition, no law

against MPs being editors. They have been in the past and no doubt will

again in the future. He is taking a lot on, he is an editor, also

wanting to be an MP, a jetsetting academic in the States, working in

the city, I suspect something will give. It seems to me even by his

self-confidence standards in his own abilities I suspect he is taking on

a little bit too much. Very diplomatic, Mr Clegg, I'm sure you

will get to keep the column. Thanks for joining us.

Now, for the last six months England's NHS bosses have been

warning the health service needs more money to help it meet

But in his first Budget, the Chancellor offered

no immediate relief, and today the head of

the organisation representing England's NHS trusts says hundreds

of thousands of patients will have to wait longer for both emergency

care and planned operations, unless the Government

Warnings over funding are not exactly new.

Back in 2014 the head of the NHS in England, Simon Stevens,

published his plan for the future of the health service.

In his five-year forward view, Stevens said the NHS in England

would face a funding shortfall of up to ?30 billion by 2020.

To bridge that gap he said the NHS would need more money

from the Government, at least ?8 billion extra,

and that the health service could account for the rest by making

The Government says it's given the health service more than what it

asked for, and that NHS in England will have received

That number is disputed by NHS managers and the chair

of Parliament's health committee, who say the figure is more

like ?4.5 billion, while other parts of the health and social care budget

have been cut, putting pressure on the front line.

Last year, two thirds of NHS trusts in England finished

the year in the red, and despite emergency bailouts

from the Government, the NHS is likely to record

Meanwhile national targets on waiting times for A

departments, diagnostic tests, and operations are being

This month's Budget provided ?2 billion for social care

but there was no new cash for the NHS, leading trusts to warn

that patient care is beginning to suffer, and what is being asked

And I'm joined now by the Chief Executive of NHS

Providers in England, Chris Hopson.

Welcome to the programme. Morning, Andrew. I will come onto the extra

money you need to do your job properly in a minute but first, part

of the deal was you had to make 22 billion in efficiency savings, not a

bank that money but spend it on patient care, the front line, and so

on. How is that going? So, last parliament we realised around 18

billion of productivity and efficiency savings, we are realising

more this year so we are on course to realise 3 billion this year, that

is a quarter of a billion more than last year but all of us in the NHS

knew the 22 billion would be a very stretching target and we are

somewhat inevitably falling short. So it is 22 billion by 2,020.

Roughly. That was the time. We are now into 2017. So how much of the 22

billion have you achieved? We realised around 3 billion last year

and we will realise 3 billion this year, Court of billion more, 3.25

billion this year, so we are on course for 18-19,000,000,000. By the

2021 period? You are not that far away. The problem is the degree to

which demand is going up. We have record demand over the winter period

and that actually meant we have seen more people than we have ever seen

before but performance is still under real pressure. Let me come

onto that. When you agreed on the 22 billion efficiency savings plus some

extra money from the government, I know there is a bit of an argument

about how much that is actually worth, had you not factored in this

extra demand that you saw coming over the next three or four years?

Let's be very clear committee referred to Simon Stevens's forward

view and we signed up to it but the 22 billion was a process run at the

centre of government by the Department of Health with its arms

length bodies, NHS England and others and is not something that was

consulted on with the NHS. But you signed up to it. We always said that

the day that that Spending Review was announced, the idea that the NHS

where customer demand goes up something like four or 5% every

year, the idea that in the middle years of Parliament we would be able

to provide the same level of service when we were only getting funding

increases of 1.3%, 0.4% and 0.7%, and I can show you the press release

we issued, we always said there was going to be a gap and that we would

not be able to deliver what was required. The full 22 billion in

other words? What we said to Simon Stevens at the Public Accounts

Committee a few months ago, the NHS didn't get what it was asked for.

Today the NHS, cope with the resources it has according to you.

How much more does it need? Are reported is about 2017-18 and we

estimate that what we are being asked to do, and again, Andrew, you

clearly set it out in the package, we are a long way off the four-hour

A target and a long way off the 92%. The waiting times and

operations. How much more do you need? And we are making up a ?900

million deficit. If you take all of those into account we estimate you

would need an extra ?3.5 billion next year in order to deliver all of

those targets and eliminate the deficit. That would be 3.5 billion

on top of what is already planned next year and that would be 3.5

billion repeated in the years to come too? Yes, Andrew it is

important we should make an important distinction about the NHS

versus other public services. When the last government, the last Labour

government put extra money into the NHS it clearly said that in return

for that it would establish some standards in the NHS Constitution,

the 95% A target we have talked about and the 92% elective surgery

we have talked about. The trust we represent are very clear, they would

want to realise those standards, but you can only do it if you pay for

it. The problem is at the moment is we are in the longest and deepest

financial squeeze in NHS history. As we have said, funding is only going

up by 1% per year but every year just to stand still cost and demand

go up by more than 4%. There is clearly a demand for more money. I

think people watching this programme will think probably the NHS is going

to have to get more money to meet the goals you have been given. I

think they would also like to be sure that your Mac running the NHS

as efficiently as it could be. We read this morning that trusts have

got ?100 million of empty properties that cost 10 million to maintain, 36

office blocks are not being used, you have surplus land equivalent to

1800 football pitches. Yes, there are a number of things that we know

in the NHS we need to do better but let me remind you, Andrew, in the

last Parliament we realised ?18 billion worth of cost improvement

gains. We are going to realise another 3 billion this year, 0.25

billion more than last year so these things are being targeted. But

having that surplus land, it is almost certainly in areas where

there is a demand for housing. Absolutely. So why not release it

for housing? You get the money, the people get their houses and its

contribution and a signal that you are running NHS assets as

efficiently as you can? Tell me if I'm going to too much detail for

you. One of the reasons as to why our trusts are reluctant to realise

those land sales is because there is an assumption that the money would

go back to the Treasury and wouldn't benefit NHS trusts. You could make a

deal, couldn't you? That's part of the conversation going on at the

moment. The issue is that we would want to ensure that if we do release

land, quite rightly the benefit, particularly in foundation trusts

which are, as you will remember, deliberately autonomous

organisations, that they should keep the benefit of those land sales.

Have you raised that with the government?

Yes we have. What did they say? They are in discussions of it. We heard

somebody who moved from one job and then to another job and given a big

salary and then almost ?200,000 as a payoff. There is a national mood for

the NHS to get more money. But before you give anybody any more

money you want to be sure that the money you have got already is being

properly spent, which for us, is the patient at the end of the day. And

yet there seem to be these enormous salaries and payoffs. I've worked in

a FTSE 100 on the board of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs and I

have worked in large organisations. I can look you completely straight

in the eye and tell you that the jobs that our hospital, community,

mental health and ambulance chief Executives do are amongst the most

complicated leadership roles I have ever seen. It doesn't seem to me to

be unreasonable that in order to get the right quality of people we

should pay an appropriate salary. The reality is the salaries are paid

are not excessive when talking about managing budgets of over ?1 billion

a year and talking about managing tens of thousands of staff. There

was a doctor working as a locum that earned an extra ?375,000. One of the

problems in the NHS is a mismatch between the number of staff we need

and the number of staff coming through the pipeline. What is having

to happen is if you want to keep a service going you have to use Mackem

and agency staff. Even at that cost? You would not want to pay those

amounts. But you are. The chief Executives's choice in those areas

is giving the service open or employing a locum. I'm sure you

could find a locum prepared to work for less than that. What indication,

what hopes do you have of getting the extra ?3 billion? The government

has been very clear, for the moment it wants to stick to the existing

funding settlement it has agreed. So there was nothing in the budget. Can

I finish by making one important point. Please, finish. This is the

first time the NHS has said before the year has even started that we

can't deliver on those standards. We believe, as do most people who work

in the NHS, that the NHS is on a gradual slow decline. This is a very

important inflection point to Mark, this is the first time before the

financial year starts that we say we cannot meet the targets we are being

asked to deliver and are in the NHS Constitution. We have run out of

time. Chris Hopson, thank you for being with me.

It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

I'm Nina Warhurst, coming up in the North West:

Move over George and Julia, make way for Burnley and Wigan -

our councils in Cannes for some pre-Brexit business.

Yes, this place is normally a playground for the stars, but this

week the Northern Powerhouse headed to Provence.

Phil McCann's on the Cote d'Azur and I'm not.

But we have the Manchester Ship Canal and sunshine and light,

Antoinette Sandbach is the Conservative MP for Eddisbury,

and Jim McMahon the Labour MP for Oldham West and Royton.

We start with the Conservative Party's fine by the Electoral

Commission for failing to report election spending properly.

Last year, police were investigating seven current or former North West

MPs whose constituencies were visited by this battlebus

That's because costs like these overnight stays at the Holiday Inn

in Bolton were declared as national spending, rather than as part

Bury North's David Nuttall - with the bus here -

was one of three Greater Manchester MPs under investigation.

He and Mary Robinson in Cheadle say they've had no update,

but Hazel Grove MP Will Wragg - seen with David Cameron here -

says his case has been referred to the Crown Prosecution Service.

And Lancashire Police are still investigating Rossendale

Here's what David Nuttall told us last year.

Now, all the candidates where it visited all put it down as local...

This is my fifth general election, and every general

election I've fought, we've dealt with these

That was his defence this week, as well as Will Wragg,

Antoinette, the defence seems to be, that's the way it is,

that's the way it's always been - that doesn't wash with

This was national campaigning, and the Conservative Party have

accepted, with those fines, that they made errors in declaring

I know that Labour had a battle bus that came and stayed

in the Nunsmere Hotel, a very nice hotel in my constituency.

I sure it was declared, but they too have been fined for mistakes,

Clearly, there is an issue of a national spend,

but I don't think it can be blamed on the individual MPs.

Jim, is that a point, they've been notable

We've approached several to get a comment on this.

Is it exactly the same for the Labour party?

I think we should separate out the individual MPs

I think all of which do a decent job, regardless of party politics,

in terms of providing a decent representation

And election law, which is pretty clear in terms of how

you fight elections, where funding ought to come

from and how you contribute funding in different places.

Sometimes that's complicated, particularly in national campaigns,

where there is a degree of national party involvement.

Often, that's done in a way without the candidate

and agent being spoken to, or discussed when the battle bus

So you do have sympathy with any party's MPs then?

I think maybe where my sympathies end is that, actually,

fundamentally, the responsibility lies with the candidate

and the agents to make sure the declaration is correct.

OK, but I've stood in elections where unions have written out

With a very strong political message, which doesn't count as part

of Labour Party spend and never has done.

So maybe there are lessons to be learned...

I would say, that would be trade unions writing to their own members,

giving a view about how they view the candidates.

And that's clearly designed to influence the way they vote,

and to influence them to vote Labour, and that's never, ever

But that doesn't come from central party spending.

And let's be clear, the amount we're talking about is 0.6%

The concern from the Electoral Commission is, once again,

voter's confidence in democratic elections are undermined.

So regardless of the point that it's a tiny fraction...

The Conservatives underspent on their national

The budget should have been easier to account for in that sense!

And the way that the Electoral Commission has communicated this,

I think, has helped contribute to that lack of confidence.

I think it could perhaps have been approached in a different way.

But how do you explain then, the Electoral Commission,

it's very unusual for them, by the way, to get into this.

They like to be a bit under the radar when it comes to getting

They were very clear that the Conservative Party

It's cost the public money, because the Conservative Party

didn't provide answers to the questions of the report.

We're going to have to move on, and we'll find out in May

whether the CPS move forward with prosecutions.

From battlebuses to Brexit, and we're officially under starter's

orders after both Houses gave their go-ahead to trigger

But our council leaders aren't sitting around waiting

for the Prime Minister to fire that starting pistol.

They've been looking for a head start in the south of France.

And poor old Phil McCann was forced to go too.

Normally in Cannes, it's Julia and George on the red carpet.

At this time of year, it is more about Wigan and Wirral.

This annual event is Europe's biggest investment exhibition,

where our councils pitch stalls and marquees to try and get a slice

We need investment, this is a great opportunity for Manchester

We're coming out here to see what we can learn and how we can

attract more and more investment into Lancashire.

I'm bit shocked about it, you're next door to Malta, you know,

This year, it's the biggest British delegation to this international

And they knew that when they came to the sunshine of the south

of France, they had to cast a light on the shadow that's been created

So what does business make of Brexit?

If you think it's bad, please raise your hands.

We all recognise the uncertainties which Brexit

represents, not just in terms of political uncertainty,

but also economic management and fiscal uncertainty as well.

One of the roles we've all got to play here

is to demonstrate we're still open for business.

It's unclear what the full outcome will be, but I think,

as a place to invest, the UK, no matter how you look

at it, all the different metrics you look at,

it's is still a very strong, important investment market.

North West councils know that they need to show the region

But they also know the idea of them swanning about here

in the south of France, sipping champagne, doesn't

And so they try to show what they'll achieve

Like Wirral's plan to regenerate Birkenhead.

I just gauge by the level of interest I've had from developers

and investors in the last year, I just think the time's right.

There is a buzz about Wirral and Birkenhead.

And in Manchester, where contentious plans for tower blocks,

headed up by this man, will be rethought.

There is no doubt that some of the suggestions that have been

made to us during the consultation process, during the planning

We need to refine certain aspects of it, we need to change

We still fundamentally believe in scale.

It's that kind of progress that people who can afford these

yachts want to hear, as they think about where

to invest their cash, as Britain gets ready to sail away

I was chatting to Phil today as he applied his actor son. He said, far

from being all doom and gloom over there, in the light of Brexit, the

result is from trading bodies. You noted your concern about Brexit by

denying the whip over Article 50. Do you think things are as bad as they

seem? I actually voted for Article 50 and

supported the bill. My abstention was in terms of a meaningful vote at

the end of the process, but absolutely supported the bill. I

supported the Prime Minister in going out there and selling Britain.

I think there are opportunities, I went to see her take those

opportunities, both in forging a new relationship with Europe, but also

forging a new relationship outside of Europe. She's way that out very

clearly in her Lancaster house speech. I'm delighted to hear of the

optimism out there. Jim, do you think it will be

optimistic moving forward for businesses from Europe?

I think in North West point of view, the crowd here what happened from

London. What happened because Theresa May stands up and makes a

speech. It will happen because relationships are developed at a

local level. We see the growth in Merseyside and Greater Manchester,

the work being done in Lancashire as well, that's because of local

weighbridge, that's local leadership, relationships are being

forged. I think that's fantastic, being ambassadors for investment is

fantastic. That is because George Osborne and

the whole northern power has concept was about driving down powers to

local communities so they could go out there, so they can make the

plans and sell their local area. I think George Osborne's promotion of

the Northern Powerhouse has been absolutely key in the perception in

the international investment community about the opportunities

that are appear in the North West. Well, we soon will see if they have

time for the Northern Powerhouse time for the Northern Powerhouse

partnership, because Brexit has worked out well for Antoinette's

constituency neighbour, George Osborne.

He lost his job as Chancellor, but he's now been appointed editor

Here he is in his Tatton seat, which he says he wants

He also told us a few months back that he'd like to carry

on as a North West MP if Tatton disappears due to boundary changes.

Antoinette, quite an extraordinary announcement this week.

The big question on everybody's lips, how can you possibly do two

Well, I think he did two massive jobs well

when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer,

Hang on, that's a big job that serves the public,

that the public accept as part of his role an MP.

It's totally different to serving a Russian businessman?

Clearly, he's been offered a job, I don't know what the contract is,

I don't know what the terms are, but has clearly demonstrated

that he has the ability to show that leadership role and to work

at an incredibly intense level, if I can put it that way.

You both told me, when you arrived today, about the pressures

on you at constituency level, having a surgery on Fridays.

You must concede that to do your job properly,

to serve your constituents well, and to be in Parliament

and listen to every debate that goes on thoroughly,

you can't spend every morning in a newsroom?

I have to say, if you look at the BBC Parliament channel,

you'll see that quite often we aren't able to listen to every

debate, because there are other calls on our time.

I sit on the BEIS Select Committee, and a considerable of my time

is devoted to those inquiries and that evidence.

Once again, though, serving the public rather than a newspaper?

I think George Osborne has served the public

for an exceptionally long time, I think he has a good track record,

and at the end of the day, it will be up to his constituents

That's true, and actually, Jim, that's the argument from the local

They've said, yes, he was a brilliant Chancellor

and he was a brilliant local MP at the same time,

But we all play a part to a lesser or greater extent in the workings

of Parliament, that's how we govern our country, that's how

And if you're an MP, you have your constituency work

and be a dilligent constituency MP, supporting people, making

sure you're helping your local area to do well.

You've also got to make sure you're playing your role

as a parliamentarian, and then behind that

George Osborne did that as Chancellor, but he's

massively distracted now, one by his international

responsibilities, giving professional advice.

I've no grievance with people getting on and doing well,

but there's got to be a limit to what you can do before it truly

impacts on your ability to be an MP, which is a full-time

But that's a matter for his constituents to judge?

His constituents haven't had the ability to judge it...

He decided mid-term, in a process, by the way,

where his seat is likely to be deleted in the boundary review

Clearly, on a human level, you can understand why he might think,

if my constituency doesn't exist, then I won't be an MP

beyond that point anyway, and I am going to start

preparing for what future, my future outside of politics.

We don't know, those boundary changes haven't been completed,

It's not me hedging my bets, it's George Osborne hedging his bets.

Too many local children are waiting too long

for mental health treatment, the message from the

Children's Commissioner for England this week.

MPs meanwhile called for more action to tackle suicides.

So are politicians becoming more keen to address

I spoke to Alastair Campbell - Burnley fan and former head

of communications for Tony Blair - who's had his own problems

I think we've made a lot of progress in terms of how

And think it's much, much higher up the agenda than it used to be.

The fact that we're talking about it now, that I do more talks

and interviews about this than anything else at the moment.

My big worry, with the National Health Service under

as much pressure as it is, that actually psychiatric and

mental health services are going down to the bottom

In 2012, the Government pledged parity of esteem between mental

It should now be a legal obligation for CCGs to deliver that.

As we know, in the North West, that is not always the case.

Saying parity, saying we should look at mental health in the same way

as we look at physical health, that's easy.

Theresa May said something in her mental health

She said it almost as if she was expecting

a round of applause for it - she said that by 2021,

from their own region to another region to find a psychiatric bed.

That's twice as long as the time she says she's

the most complicated thing any Prime Minister's had

When local authorities, when local commissioning bodies

have their own say over the budget, and they choose what to invest in,

how do we stop it being a patchwork of services across,

not just the North West, but across the country?

It's very difficult, because ultimately, the pressures

But what's happening at the moment - you talk about patchwork -

what's hanging around the country, commissioning groups that are under

massive financial pressures, historically what has happened

is that the psychiatric and mental health services have been first

in the queue for cuts, and that's happening again.

Ultimately, we have to win the argument, that if we invest

properly in mental health services now,

and we catch people young, that we're going to be saving money

We'll save money and addiction services, in prisons,

in court services, we'll save money from the divorce courts.

We've just got to have this sense of needing to think big about this,

and we've got to understand that if we invest in our mental

health now, we'll be making savings for the future.

Let's start with that point that Alastair Campbell finished on, we

know our prisons are getting fuller, we know A raises are on their

knees. If we address mental health in the right way,, its basic

economics at the Government in severe ignoring?

They're not ignoring it. An additional ?1 billion has been put

into specifically children's mental health. There is a shortage of Child

psychologists, which is a problem. But they are targeting money,

particularly at that early age group. And a further 1.25 billion is

going into adult mental health services by 2021, as Alastair

Campbell pointed out. Much like social care, people who

suffer from mental health conditions are not getting the right treatment

will say that is the drop in the oven. We know that here, when it

comes to referral for depression and entirety, St Helens, you're seen

within five days, in Manchester it's 50 days. Ultimately, that is the

responsible sales local Government level that's?

It is the response ability of the Clinical Commissioning Groups to

level the services, new standards have been set to make sure that

patients will be seen within the set period of time.

Is that fair, that CCGs the typical bond there is an equipment can say,

we're giving the money, you deal with it?

To be honest, this transcends different governments. For too long,

we haven't given mental health the attention it ought to have had. As a

society, we're very uncomfortable dealing with people with mental

health problems. A lot of people fall through the net because of

that. There's no doubt that the fragmentation of mental health

service, the money that has been taken away, is as where having an

impact. As Alston said, I want to put on record Alastair's courage for

telling his own story about this. More people need to do that. We need

to create an environment where people have that conversation in

public. I do agree with that. Members of

Parliament are increasingly coming forward and speak with their own

experiences. George Walker has spoken very movingly in the Cadillac

house about his own experiences. There is that financial commitment

that is clearly needed? You say yourself that is a problem in

recruiting child psychiatrists, so there are gaps?

There are gaps, and those need to be addressed. But at least the

discussion is taking place about the parity of mental health services.

It should be a legal responsibility, parity of esteem was pledged five

years ago. The problem is, if you were to track

back to the different stages, and recognise if there is an issue, once

the assessment is carried out, in some places it can take 50 days.

You're a young person, that is a big chunk of your school life that has

been taken away, notwithstanding everything that has taken this

before that. But get the support and investment in that person that is

needed, for a lot of people at assist rubble. We can see that in

circumstances where meat has been identified, they just get the help

they need. It is important to come to your MP,

because we can often help to make sure that support is in place.

Here's Katie Waldeman now with a look at the rest

Care home in crisis - Healthwatch Liverpool says

the city's lost 220 beds in the past year and may soon struggle to

There was misery for Merseyrail passengers

Members of the RMT Union went on strike over plans

I honestly don't know why they're doing it.

I don't agree with right now, because I'm missing my

trains, but there's probably got to be a good reason behind it.

Pay up for policing - Lancashire's Crime Commissioner

calls for the Government to stump up for the cost of controlling

This is not a mess of our making, this is

something that has been decided at Westminster once again.

A row rumbled on over deal-making on Pendle council -

Labour and the Lib Dems denied any agreement with the country's last

And the Government's investigating claims that the itinerary for this

trip to Cheshire were left on a train.

They included details of the Prime Minister's hotel.

Well, we started in Cannes, let's finish in Gorton in Manchester.

Because the former Labour Party and Respect Party MP George Galloway

has been there ahead of a possible by-election bid following the death

And this bus has also been touring there with him.

The killings of Tony Blair, it says. We know the damage George Galloway

can do to Labour Party when a one state, is this a concern for you?

It would be a by-election of a circus to come to town, and achieve

cloud on this by-election seems to be George Galloway. I have no time

or respect for George Galloway. I think you's opportunist, I think he

preys on division. I think the voters of Gordon will see through

that, and they will support the candidate. I think people respect

the work that George Coffman did as an MP, they had a good

parliamentarian resenting them, they want to know they have the same

standard began. Even if he does have the same impact

again, there is a huge majority for the Labour Party in Gordon. While

the Conservative Party fight this election?

It has been said it is a marginal seat, even with a 25 as a majority!

I'm not sure I agree with that, but bull fight.

The Labour band in Manchester is so strong, people, and support the

Labour brand. But bid on what it stands for, there

is no programme from Jeremy Corbyn, and I think it's possible that a

good Conservative candidate collapses will find and execute the

labour will be. Thank you to Antoinette and general.

you both. Say goodbye. Goodbye. Back to you.

So, can George Osborne stay on as a member of Parliament

Will Conservative backbenchers force a Government re-think

And is Theresa May about to cap gas and electricity prices?

Whose idea was that first of all? They are all questions for the Week

Ahead to. Let's start with the story that is

too much fun to miss, on Friday it was announced the former Chancellor

would be the new editor of London's Evening Standard newspaper, a

position he will take up in mid-May on a salary of ?200,000 for four

days a week. But Mr Osborne has said he will not

be stepping down as MP for Tatton in Cheshire,

a job he's held since 2001, Alongside these duties,

he's also chairman of While being committed to one day

a week at Black Rock, an American asset management firm -

a part-time role that earns him Then he's polishing his academic

credentials, as a fellow at the McCain Institute,

an American thinktank, And finally as a member

of the Washington Speaker's Bureau, he also earns his keep

as an after-dinner speaker, banking around ?750,000

since last summer. So there you go. Nice little earners

if you can get them. The problem, though, is he has put second jobs on

the agenda and lots of his fellow MPs are not happy because they have

got second jobs but not making that kind of money. No, and a lot of MPs

on both sides actually are unhappy about it exactly for those reasons.

I find it a very interesting appointment. We have got these

people on the centre and centre right of politics who have been used

to power since 1997, they have been on the airwaves today, Tony Blair,

Nick Clegg, George Osborne, and they are all seeking other platforms now

because power has moved elsewhere. So Tony Blair is setting up this new

foundation, Nick Clegg refused to condemn George Osborne, Tony Blair

praised the appointment. They are all searching for new platforms.

They might have overestimated the degree to which this will be a huge

influential platform. The standard was very pro-Tory at the 2015

election but London voted Labour, it was pro-Zac Goldsmith but they

elected Sadiq Khan. It might be overestimating the degree to which

this is a hugely influential paper. But I can see why it attracts him as

a platform when all these platforms have disappeared, eg power and

government. All of these people who used to be in power are quietly

getting together again, Mr Blair on television this morning, George

Osborne not only filling his bank account but now in charge of

London's most important newspaper, Nick Clegg out today not saying

Brexit was a done deal, waiting to see what happens, even John Major

was wheeled out again today in the Mail on Sunday. They are all playing

for position. I half expect David Cameron to turn up as features

editor on The Evening Standard. Brexit and breakfast! With Mr Clegg,

did he not? I do not think this is sustainable for George Osborne, I

worked at The Evening Standard and I was there for three years, I know

what the hours are like for a humble journalist, never mind the editor.

If he thinks he can get at 4am everyday to be in the offices at 5am

to oversee the splash, manage everything in the way and edited

should he is in cloud cuckoo land. What this says to people is there is

a kind of feel of soft corruption about public life here, where you

see what you can get away with. He thinks he can brazen this out and

maybe he can but what kind of message does that send to people

about how seriously people take the role of being an MP? He must have

known. He applied for the job. The Russian owner didn't approach him,

he approached Lebedev, the proprietor, for it. He must have

calculated there would be some kickback. I wonder if he realised

there would be quite the kickback there has been. I think that's

probably right. This hasn't finished yet, by the way, this will go on and

on. How on earth does George Osborne cover the budget in the autumn? Big

budget, lots of physical changes and tax rises to deal with the messages

out of this week. You can see already, Theresa May budget crashes.

It could be worse. She's useless! Or, worse than that, me, brilliant

budget, terrible newspaper, I've never buying it again. He has

hoisted his own petard. He has not bought it properly through. It's a

something interesting about his own future calculations, if he wants to

stay on as an MP in 2020 and be Prime Minister as he has or was

wanted to be he has got to find a new seat. How do you go into an

association and say I should be an MP, I can do it for at least four

hours Purdy after editing The Evening Standard, making a big

speech and telling Black Rock how to make a big profit. The feature pages

have to be approved for the next day and feature pages are aware the

editor gets to make their mark. The news is the news. The feature is

what concerns you, what he is in your bonnet. That defines the

newspaper, doesn't it? It is not over yet. Too much 101 on

newspapers. And Haatheq at. School funding, the consultation

period ends, it has been a tricky one for the government, some areas

losing. I guess we are seeing this through the prism of the National

Insurance contributions now, it is a small majority, if Tory MPs are

unhappy she may not get her way. Talking to backbench MPs who are

unhappy the feeling is it is not going to go ahead in the proposed

form that the consultation has been on. No 10 will definitely have to

move on this. It is unclear whether they will scrap it completely, or

will they bring in something possibly like a base level, floor

level pupil funding below which you can't go? You would then still need

to find some extra money. So there are no easy solutions on this but

what is clear it is not going to go ahead in its current form. Parents

have been getting letters across the country in England about what this

will mean for teachers and so on in certain schools. It's not just a

matter of the education Department, the schools, or the teachers and

Tory backbenchers. Parents are being mobilised on this. The point of the

new funding formula is to allocate more money to the more

disadvantaged. That means schools in the more prosperous suburbs are

going to lose money. Budget cuts on schools which are already

struggling. It comes down again to be huge problem, the ever smaller

fiscal pool, ever greater demands, NHS, social care, education as well,

adding to Theresa May and Phillip Hammond's enormous problems. Here is

an interesting issue, Steve. There was a labour Leader of the

Opposition that once suggested perhaps given these huge energy

companies which seemed to be good at passing on energy rises but not so

good at cutting energy prices when it falls, that perhaps we should put

a cap on them until at least we study how the market goes. This was

obviously ludicrous Marxism and quite rightly knocked down by the

Conservatives, except that Mrs May is now talking about putting a cap

on energy prices. Yes, I think if it wasn't for Brexit we would focus

much more on Theresa May's Ed Miliband streak. Whether this

translates into policies, let us see. That bit we don't know. That

bit we don't know but in terms of argument her speech to the

Conservative conference on Friday was about the third or fourth time

where she said as part of the speech, let's focus on the good that

government can do, including in intervening in markets, exactly in

the way that he used to argue. As you say, we await the policy

consequences of that. She seems more cautious in terms of policy in

fermentation. But in terms of the industrial strategy, in terms of

implying intervention in certain markets, there is a kind of

Milibandesque streak. And there comes a time when she has to walk

the walk as well as talk the talk. They talk a lot about the just about

managing, just about managing face rising food bills because of the

lower pound and face rising fuel bills because of the rise in oil and

in other commodities. One of the two things you could do to help the just

about managing is to cut their food bills and the second would be to cut

their fuel bills. At some stage she has to do something for them. We

don't know what is going to happen to food bills under Brexit, that

could become a really serious issue. They could abolish tariffs. There

has been a lot of talking the talk and big announcements put out and

not following through so I agree with you on that but lots of Tory

MPs will have a big problem on this and the principle of

continually talking about interfering in markets, whether it's

on executive pay, whether it is on energy, at a time when Britain needs

to send out this message to the world in their view, in the view of

Brexit supporting MPs, that we are open for business and the government

is not about poking around and doing this kind of thing. Of course, you

could argue there is not a problem in the market for energy, it is a

malfunctioning market that doesn't operate like a free market should,

so that provides even Adam Smith, the inventor of market economics

would have said on that basis you should intervene. I was in Cardiff

to listen to Theresa May's latest explanation for doing this. By the

way, we've been waiting nine months, this was one of her big ideas. You

are right, let's see a bit of the meat, please. My newspaper has been

calling for some pretty hefty government action on this for quite

some time. For the just about managings? Yes and specifically to

sort out an energy market dominated by the big six, which is manifestly

ripping people off left, right and centre. Theresa May's argument in

Cardiff on Friday morning which, by the way, went down like a proverbial

windbreak at the proverbial funeral because Tories... You know what I

mean Andrew, the big hand coming into from the state telling

businesses what to do. They went very quiet indeed. They were having

saving the union and Nato but there was no clapping for that. The point

being, this is what she needs to do to prove her assault, to prove those

first words on the steps of Downing Street. We await to see the actions

taken. On that unusual agreement we will

leave it there. The Daily Politics will be back on BBC Two tomorrow at

noon and everyday during the week. And I'll be here on BBC One

next Sunday at 11am. Remember, if it's Sunday,

it's the Sunday Politics. I've not given myself that time

to sit down