19/03/2017 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

She faces huge political fights over Brexit, Scottish independence,

After a tumultuous political week, we'll analyse the PM's prospects.

With chatter increasing about a possible early General Election,

Jeremy Corbyn's campaign chief joins me live.

NHS bosses warn health services in England are facing "mission

impossible" and waiting times for operations will rocket,

unless hospitals are given more cash this year.

The chief executive of NHS Providers joins me live.

And coming up here: Eight days to go until the deadline

Plus, the view from Washington - a senior Congressman tells us

All that to come before 12:15pm, and I'll also be talking

to the former leader of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg

from his party's spring conference in York.

With me here in the studio, throughout the programme,

three of the country's top political commentators:

Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

They'll be tweeting their thoughts using #bbcsp.

So, the political challenges facing Theresa May are stacking up.

As well as negotiating Britain's exit from the EU,

the PM must now deal with SNP demands for a second referendum

on Scottish independence, backbenchers agitating against cuts

to school budgets, and a humiliated Chancellor forced to u-turn on a key

budget measure just one week after announcing it.

Here's Adam Fleming on aturbulent political week

Monday, 11:30am, TV crews gather in the residence of the First

Minister of Scotland, who's got a surprise.

She wants a vote on whether Scotland should leave the UK

By taking the steps I have set out today I am ensuring that Scotland's

future will be decided, not just by me, the

Scottish Government, or the

SNP, it will be decided by the people of Scotland.

Westminster, 6:25pm the same day, MPs reject

amendments to the legislation authorising the Prime Minister to

The Bill ceremonially heads to the Lords where peers abandoned

attempts to change it and it becomes law.

But Downing Street doesn't trigger Article 50 as many had expected.

Some say they were spooked by Nicola Sturgeon.

We get an e-mail from the Treasury can the

We get an e-mail from the Treasury cancelling

the planned rise in National Insurance for

the self-employed announced the budget.

It's just minutes before Prime Minister's Questions at noon.

The trend towards greater self-employment does create a

We will bring forward further proposals

but we will not bring forward increases to NICs later in this

It seems to me like a government in a bit of chaos here.

By making this change today we are listening to our colleagues

fulfil both the letter and the spirit of our manifesto tax

Thursday, 7am, Conservative campaign HQ and the

Electoral Commission fines the party ?70,000 for misreporting spending

But that's not what the Prime Minister

Because at 12:19pm she gives her verdict on a

We should be working together, not pulling apart.

We should be working together to get that

right deal for Scotland, that

So, as I say, that's my job as Prime Minister and

so for that reason I say to the SNP now is not the time.

Friday and time for the faithful to gather.

SNP activists at their spring conference

Conservatives in Cardiff to hear the Prime Minister

promote her plan for a more meritocratic Brexit Britain.

At 11:10am comes some news about a newspaper that's frankly

I'm thrilled and excited to be the new editor of The

Evening Standard and, you know, with so many

big issues in our world what

good analysis, great news journalism.

It's a really important time for good journalism that The

Evening Standard is going to provide.

There was no let-up yesterday as Gordon Brown launched proposals

Under my proposals we keep the Barnett

Formula, we keep the fiscal transfers, but we also bring the

and fisheries back to the Scottish Parliament.

And just think, all this and we're still counting down to the

What a week in politics. It has been a torrid week for the government,

Isabel Oakeshott, but does Theresa May shake it off, or is this a sign

of worse to come? We may all be feeling a bit breathless after the

events of last week and we are in for a a long war of attrition with

the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon's strategy will be to foster over lengthy

periods of time as much resentment and anger as she can in Scotland and

try to create the impression that independence is somehow inevitable.

Is Scotland the biggest challenge for Theresa May in the next year or

so? I think it probably is because if you look at how relatively easily

the Brexit bill went through on an issue where people could hardly feel

more passionate in the Commons, and actually despite all the potential

drama it has gone through quite smoothly. To go back to your

original question, she just carries on. Don't underestimate the basic

quiet and will towards Theresa May amongst the majority of Tory

backbenchers. Yes, there are difficult little issues over school

funding, sorry, it's not a little issue, it is a big one but she will

get over that and treat each thing as it comes and keep pressing on.

Has she not called Nicola Sturgeon's Bluff in that the First Minister

said I want a referendum, here is roughly when I wanted, the Prime

Minister says you're not having one. What happens next? She has done

quite well and impact the progress Theresa May made this week in

frustrating Nicola Sturgeon was evident when Nicola Sturgeon said,

OK, maybe we can talk about the timing after. Nicola Sturgeon has

already been the first one to blink. I would slightly disagree with

Isabel Oakeshott, I don't agree Scotland will be the biggest hurdle

for her. What this week showed as is Theresa May... It was a reality

bites week. Theresa May is juggling four mammoth crises at the same

time, Brexit obviously which I still think will be the biggest challenge

to get a good deal, Trump left field who popped up at GCHQ on Friday and

Scotland and the fiscal challenge, this enormous great problem, and it

reinforced the point this is not an easy time in politics. The budget is

over four years. That was one small problem, the immediate problem is

how to fill the social care crisis and the ageing demographic. This is

not normal times in British politics and Theresa May does not have a

normal workload on her plate, hence why I think we will see more

mistakes made as time goes on and as she has this almost impossible

workload to juggle. How tempted do you think the Prime Minister is to

call an early election? There is more chatter about it now. Is she

tempted and if there is will she succumb? I will answer that in a

second as Harold Wilson used to say. I want to agree, disagree with the

rest of the panel about how she has out manipulated Nicola Sturgeon this

week. I think Nicola Sturgeon expected Theresa May to say no to

her expected timetable. It would be amazing if she had said yes. She

expected her to say no but Sturgeon catalyst that will fuel support for

her cause. There is no sign of that. The latest poll this morning shows

66-44 against independence and only 13% think they would be better off

with an independent Scotland and a clear majority do not want a second

referendum. But the calculation of resistance from Westminster combined

with Brexit which hasn't started yet, I think this is her

calculation, she didn't expect Theresa May to say, sure, go ahead,

I'm sure she expected Theresa May to say no, you can't have it at your

desired timetable. On the wider point, I think Theresa May is in a

fascinating position, she is both strong because she faces weak

opposition and is ahead in the opinion polls. But faces the most

daunting agenda of any Prime Minister for 40 or 50 years, I

think. So it's a weird combination. I don't think she wants to call an

election. I don't think she has thought about how you would

manipulate it, what the trigger would be, and whether she's got the

energy and space to prepare for and then mount a campaign was beginning

the Brexit negotiation. Now, you could see the cause would be the

small majorities that will make her life hellish, which it will do.

Whether a landslide would help is another question, they can be

difficult too. But I think the problems outweigh the advantages of

going early. Do you think she would go for an early election? I don't

and I think you have to look at the rhetoric coming out of No 10 which

is so firm on this question, it is a delicious prospect for us as

commentators to think there might be an election around the corner but

they are so firm on this I can't see it happening. I agree, we are in

unanimous agreement on this one. It is superficially attractive because

she would love the big majority and she would get a lot more through

Parliament especially with Brexit. The nitty-gritty of it makes an

early General Election this year almost impossible. How do you write

a manifesto on high Brexit versus soft Brexit, it opens up a Pandora's

box of uncertainties. And there is enough with the European elections.

The EU will say are we negotiating with you or the person who may

replace you? How do you keep the Tory party united going to an

election? How do you call one, with a vote of no confidence in yourself

you may end up losing. Easy on paper but difficult in practice. We shall

see. So if Theresa May did go

for an early election this spring, The party's campaigns

and elections chief Andrew Gwynne Andrew Gwynne, the government, as we

have just been talking about, executed one of the most

embarrassing U-turns in recent history this week. It has been a

torrid time for the Theresa May government. Why are the Tories still

so chipper? The Labour Party has been on an

early election footing since before Christmas and we are preparing

ourselves for that eventuality in case that does come. That means that

we've got to get ourselves into a position whereby we can not only

challenge the government but we can also offer a valuable alternative

for the British people to choose from should that election arise. So,

would you welcome an early General Election? Well, of course, I don't

want this government to be in power so of course if there is an

opportunity to put a case to the British people as to why there is a

better way, and I believe the Labour way is the better way than of course

we would want to put that case to the country. So, would Labour vote

in the Commons for an early election? Well, of course as an

opposition, not wanting to be in opposition, wanting to be in

government should the government put forward a measure in accordance with

the Fixed-term Parliaments Act then that's something we would very

seriously have to consider. I know you would have to consider it but

would you vote for an early election or not? Well, of course we want to

be the government so if the current government puts forward measures to

bring forward a General Election we would want to put our case to the

British public and that's one of the jobs that I've been given, together

Labour Party organisation early into a position where we can fight a

General Election -- organisationally. For the avoidance

of doubt, if the Government work to issue a motion in the Commons for an

early election, the Labour Party would vote for an early election?

It would be very difficult not, Andrew. If the Government wants to

dissolve parliament, wants a General Election, we don't want the Tories

in government, we want to be in government and we want to have that

opportunity to put that case to the British people.

Are you ready for an early election? You say you have been on a war all

but since the Labour conference last autumn, but are you ready for one?

How big is the election fighting fund? We have substantial amounts of

money in our fighting fund, that is true, because not only has the

Labour Party managed to eliminate its own financial deficit that it

inherited from previous election campaigns, we have also managed to

build up a substantial fund in the off chance we have an election. We

have also expanded massively operations at Labour HQ, we are

taking on additional staff, and one of the jobs that myself and Ian

Lavery who I job share with are currently doing is to go around the

Parliamentary Labour Party to make sure that Labour colleagues have the

support and the resources that they need, should they have to face the

electorate in their constituencies. So you are on a war footing, ready

for the fight, you say you would vote for the fight, so have you got

your tax and spend policies ready to roll out? That is something the

shadow Treasury team will be discussing. One of the things is, if

there is an early General Election, the normal timetable for these

things gets fast-track because our policy decision-making body, its

annual conference, we have the national policy forum that creates

policies suggestions. You have been on a war footing since the last

Labour conference, that is what Mr Corbyn told us. So you must have a

fair idea of what policies you would fight an early election on. How much

extra per year would you spend on the NHS? Well, look, I'm not going

to set out the Labour manifesto for an election that hasn't been called.

I'm just asking you about the NHS. You must have a policy for that. We

have a policy for the NHS. So how much extra? I will not set out

Labour's tax-and-spend policies here on The Sunday Politics when there

hasn't even been election called. You said you had been on a war

footing and you are prepared to vote for one, so if you can't Tommy that,

can you tell me what the corporation rate tax on company profits be under

a Labour government -- tell me that. You will have to be patient. I have.

And wait for Mrs May to trigger an early election. If there is an

election on the 4th of May the rich would have to be issued on the 27th

of March, so that's not long to wait. If that date passes we aren't

having an election on the 4th of May and the normal timetable for policy

development will continue. All right. You lost Copeland, I think

you were in charge of a by-election for Labour, your national poll

ratings are still dire, even after week of terrible times for the

Tories. Sometimes you even lose local government by-elections in

safe seats, including in the place you are now, in Salford. How long

does Mr Corbyn have to turn this around? Well, look, the issue of the

Labour leadership was settled last year. The last thing the Labour

Party now needs is another period of introspection with the Labour Party

merely talks to the Labour Party. We are now on an election footing in

case Mrs May does trigger an early General Election. We need to be

talking to the British people are not to ourselves. So any speculation

about the Labour leadership might excite you in the media but actually

for us in the Labour Party it's about re-engaging and reconnecting

with the voters. Rather than being excited, I feel quite daunted at the

prospect of an early election. So I wouldn't get that right. Normally,

given the number of mistakes this government has made, and its

mid-term, you would expect any self-respecting opposition to be

about ten points ahead. On the latest polls this morning you are 17

behind. There is a 27-30 point gap from where you should normally be as

an opposition. Are you telling me that if that doesn't change, you

still fight the General Election with Mr Corbyn?

These are matters for the future. I believe the leadership issue was

settled last year. We have had two leadership contest in two years.

Would you seriously contemplate going into the next election, if it

is early I perfectly understand Jeremy Corbyn is your man, but if it

is not until 2020, and you are still 17 points behind in the polls, will

you go into the next election like that? There is a lot of future

looking and speculation there, I don't know what the future holds,

where the Labour Party will be in 12 months let alone by 2020 summit

cross those bridges when we come to it. My main challenge is to make

sure the Labour Party is in the best possible place organisationally to

fight an election, that's my challenge and I'm up for that to

make sure we are in the best possible place to make sure Labour

returns as many Labour MPs as possible. Thank you for joining us.

And we're joined now from the Liberal Democrats' spring

conference in York by the former Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg.

Good morning. In his conference speech today, Tim Farron lumps

Theresa May with Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump. In

what way is Mrs May similar to Marine Le Pen? Of course he is not

saying Theresa May is identical to Marine Le Pen, I think what Tim

Wilby spelling out shortly in his speech is that we need to be aware

what's going on in the world, the International settlement that was

arrived at after the First World -- Second World War, that bound

supranational organisations is under attack from characters as diverse as

Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump, and that by side in so

ostentatiously with Donald Trump and pursuing this very hard Brexit,

Theresa May appears to be giving succour to that much more

isolationist chauvinist view of the world than the multilateral approach

that Britain has subscribed to for a long time. The exact words he plans

to use are welcome to the New World order, Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump,

Marine Le Pen, Theresa May, aggressive and teenage to, anti-EU,

nationalistic. In what way is Mrs May fitting into any of that? In

what way is she similar to Vladimir Putin? I'm not aware she has

interfered with other people's elections. The clue is in the quote

you just read out, which is the world order. The world order over

the last half century or more, by the way a lesson I'm afraid we have

to learn in Europe because of the terrible bloodshed of two world was

in the space of a few decades, was based on the idea might is not

right. Strong arm leaders cannot throw their weight around. What we

have now with Putin, the populism across parts of Europe and Donald

Trump who thinks the EU will unravel is a shift to a radically different

view of the world. Mrs May doesn't think any of that. She is not

antenatal, not anti-EU, she says she wants the EU to succeed. She's not

aggressive as far as I'm aware so I'm not sure why you would lump the

British Prime Minister in with these other characters. Let me explain, by

choosing this uncompromising approach to Brexit, clearly in doing

so she, in my view, maybe not yours or others, is pursuing a self

harming approach to the United Kingdom but also pulling up the

threads that bind the rest of the European Union together, in so

ostentatiously siding with Donald Trump, somehow declaring in my view

speciously that we can make up with the trade we will lose, she's not

challenging the shift to a more chauvinist approach to world affairs

that is happening in many places. You are at your party's Spring

conference, I think we can agree any Lib Dem come back will take a long

time. Would Tory dominance be more effectively challenged by a

realignment of the centre and the centre-left? Are you working towards

that? I missed half the question but I think you are talking about a

realignment. As a cook a way to get over Tory dominance, would you want

that to happen? Are you working towards that? My view is the

recovery of the Lib Dems will be quicker than you suggest. People

often forget that even the low point of our fortunes in the last election

we still got a million more votes than the SNP, it's only because we

have got this crazy electoral system... But the SNP fight in

Scotland, you fight in the whole country! But I'm saying the way

seats are allocated overlooks the fact that 2.5 million still voted

for us. But my own view is of course there are people feeling

increasingly homeless in the liberal wing of the Conservative Party

because they are now in a party which is in effect indistinguishable

from Ukip on some of the biggest issues of the day, and homeless folk

on the rational, reasonable wing of the Labour Party. I would invite

them to join the Liberal Democrats and I would invite everyone across

parties to talk about the idea is that bind us because the Westminster

village can invest a lot of energy building new castles in the sky,

inventing new names for parties when actually what you want is for people

on the progressive centre ground of British politics to talk about the

ideas that unite them, from the dilemmas of artificial intelligence

to climate change. Do you think in your own view, can Brexit still be

thwarted or is it now a matter of getting the best terms? I think we

are in an interlude, almost a calm between two storms, the storm of the

referendum itself and the collision between the Government's stated

ambitions for Brexit and the reality of having to negotiate something

unworkable with 27 other governments. The one thing I can

guarantee you is that what the Government has promised to the

British people cannot happen. Over a slower period of time we will work

out our new relationship with the European Union. Theresa May said she

will settle divorce arrangements, and pensions, so one, negotiate new

trade agreements, new climate change policies and so on, and have all of

that ratified within two years, that will not happen so I think there

will be a lot of turbulence in the next couple of years. Will you use

this turbulence to try to thwart Brexit, to find a way of rolling

back the decision? It's not about repeating the debates of the past or

thwarting the will of the people but it is comparing what people were

promised from the ?350 million for the NHS every week through to this

glittering array of new trade agreements we will sign across the

world, with the reality that will transpire in the next couple of

years and at that point, yes it is my belief people should be able to

take a second look at if that is what they really want. A couple of

quick questions, would you welcome an early general election? I always

welcome them, we couldn't do worse than we did last time. That is

certainly true. You have a column in the Evening Standard, have you

spoken to the new editor about whether he will keep your column or

spike it? No, I wait in nervous anticipation. Can you be a newspaper

editor in the morning and an MP in the afternoon? Do I think that's

feasible? Sorry, I missed a bit. There is no prohibition, no law

against MPs being editors. They have been in the past and no doubt will

again in the future. He is taking a lot on, he is an editor, also

wanting to be an MP, a jetsetting academic in the States, working in

the city, I suspect something will give. It seems to me even by his

self-confidence standards in his own abilities I suspect he is taking on

a little bit too much. Very diplomatic, Mr Clegg, I'm sure you

will get to keep the column. Thanks for joining us.

Now, for the last six months England's NHS bosses have been

warning the health service needs more money to help it meet

But in his first Budget, the Chancellor offered

no immediate relief, and today the head of

the organisation representing England's NHS trusts says hundreds

of thousands of patients will have to wait longer for both emergency

care and planned operations, unless the Government

Warnings over funding are not exactly new.

Back in 2014 the head of the NHS in England, Simon Stevens,

published his plan for the future of the health service.

In his five-year forward view, Stevens said the NHS in England

would face a funding shortfall of up to ?30 billion by 2020.

To bridge that gap he said the NHS would need more money

from the Government, at least ?8 billion extra,

and that the health service could account for the rest by making

The Government says it's given the health service more than what it

asked for, and that NHS in England will have received

That number is disputed by NHS managers and the chair

of Parliament's health committee, who say the figure is more

like ?4.5 billion, while other parts of the health and social care budget

have been cut, putting pressure on the front line.

Last year, two thirds of NHS trusts in England finished

the year in the red, and despite emergency bailouts

from the Government, the NHS is likely to record

Meanwhile national targets on waiting times for A

departments, diagnostic tests, and operations are being

This month's Budget provided ?2 billion for social care

but there was no new cash for the NHS, leading trusts to warn

that patient care is beginning to suffer, and what is being asked

And I'm joined now by the Chief Executive of NHS

Providers in England, Chris Hopson.

Welcome to the programme. Morning, Andrew. I will come onto the extra

money you need to do your job properly in a minute but first, part

of the deal was you had to make 22 billion in efficiency savings, not a

bank that money but spend it on patient care, the front line, and so

on. How is that going? So, last parliament we realised around 18

billion of productivity and efficiency savings, we are realising

more this year so we are on course to realise 3 billion this year, that

is a quarter of a billion more than last year but all of us in the NHS

knew the 22 billion would be a very stretching target and we are

somewhat inevitably falling short. So it is 22 billion by 2,020.

Roughly. That was the time. We are now into 2017. So how much of the 22

billion have you achieved? We realised around 3 billion last year

and we will realise 3 billion this year, Court of billion more, 3.25

billion this year, so we are on course for 18-19,000,000,000. By the

2021 period? You are not that far away. The problem is the degree to

which demand is going up. We have record demand over the winter period

and that actually meant we have seen more people than we have ever seen

before but performance is still under real pressure. Let me come

onto that. When you agreed on the 22 billion efficiency savings plus some

extra money from the government, I know there is a bit of an argument

about how much that is actually worth, had you not factored in this

extra demand that you saw coming over the next three or four years?

Let's be very clear committee referred to Simon Stevens's forward

view and we signed up to it but the 22 billion was a process run at the

centre of government by the Department of Health with its arms

length bodies, NHS England and others and is not something that was

consulted on with the NHS. But you signed up to it. We always said that

the day that that Spending Review was announced, the idea that the NHS

where customer demand goes up something like four or 5% every

year, the idea that in the middle years of Parliament we would be able

to provide the same level of service when we were only getting funding

increases of 1.3%, 0.4% and 0.7%, and I can show you the press release

we issued, we always said there was going to be a gap and that we would

not be able to deliver what was required. The full 22 billion in

other words? What we said to Simon Stevens at the Public Accounts

Committee a few months ago, the NHS didn't get what it was asked for.

Today the NHS, cope with the resources it has according to you.

How much more does it need? Are reported is about 2017-18 and we

estimate that what we are being asked to do, and again, Andrew, you

clearly set it out in the package, we are a long way off the four-hour

A target and a long way off the 92%. The waiting times and

operations. How much more do you need? And we are making up a ?900

million deficit. If you take all of those into account we estimate you

would need an extra ?3.5 billion next year in order to deliver all of

those targets and eliminate the deficit. That would be 3.5 billion

on top of what is already planned next year and that would be 3.5

billion repeated in the years to come too? Yes, Andrew it is

important we should make an important distinction about the NHS

versus other public services. When the last government, the last Labour

government put extra money into the NHS it clearly said that in return

for that it would establish some standards in the NHS Constitution,

the 95% A target we have talked about and the 92% elective surgery

we have talked about. The trust we represent are very clear, they would

want to realise those standards, but you can only do it if you pay for

it. The problem is at the moment is we are in the longest and deepest

financial squeeze in NHS history. As we have said, funding is only going

up by 1% per year but every year just to stand still cost and demand

go up by more than 4%. There is clearly a demand for more money. I

think people watching this programme will think probably the NHS is going

to have to get more money to meet the goals you have been given. I

think they would also like to be sure that your Mac running the NHS

as efficiently as it could be. We read this morning that trusts have

got ?100 million of empty properties that cost 10 million to maintain, 36

office blocks are not being used, you have surplus land equivalent to

1800 football pitches. Yes, there are a number of things that we know

in the NHS we need to do better but let me remind you, Andrew, in the

last Parliament we realised ?18 billion worth of cost improvement

gains. We are going to realise another 3 billion this year, 0.25

billion more than last year so these things are being targeted. But

having that surplus land, it is almost certainly in areas where

there is a demand for housing. Absolutely. So why not release it

for housing? You get the money, the people get their houses and its

contribution and a signal that you are running NHS assets as

efficiently as you can? Tell me if I'm going to too much detail for

you. One of the reasons as to why our trusts are reluctant to realise

those land sales is because there is an assumption that the money would

go back to the Treasury and wouldn't benefit NHS trusts. You could make a

deal, couldn't you? That's part of the conversation going on at the

moment. The issue is that we would want to ensure that if we do release

land, quite rightly the benefit, particularly in foundation trusts

which are, as you will remember, deliberately autonomous

organisations, that they should keep the benefit of those land sales.

Have you raised that with the government?

Yes we have. What did they say? They are in discussions of it. We heard

somebody who moved from one job and then to another job and given a big

salary and then almost ?200,000 as a payoff. There is a national mood for

the NHS to get more money. But before you give anybody any more

money you want to be sure that the money you have got already is being

properly spent, which for us, is the patient at the end of the day. And

yet there seem to be these enormous salaries and payoffs. I've worked in

a FTSE 100 on the board of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs and I

have worked in large organisations. I can look you completely straight

in the eye and tell you that the jobs that our hospital, community,

mental health and ambulance chief Executives do are amongst the most

complicated leadership roles I have ever seen. It doesn't seem to me to

be unreasonable that in order to get the right quality of people we

should pay an appropriate salary. The reality is the salaries are paid

are not excessive when talking about managing budgets of over ?1 billion

a year and talking about managing tens of thousands of staff. There

was a doctor working as a locum that earned an extra ?375,000. One of the

problems in the NHS is a mismatch between the number of staff we need

and the number of staff coming through the pipeline. What is having

to happen is if you want to keep a service going you have to use Mackem

and agency staff. Even at that cost? You would not want to pay those

amounts. But you are. The chief You would not want to pay those

Executives's choice in those areas is giving the service open or

employing a locum. I'm sure you could find a locum prepared to work

for less than that. What indication, what hopes do you have of getting

the extra ?3 billion? The government has been very clear, for the moment

it wants to stick to the existing funding settlement it has agreed. So

there was nothing in the budget. Can I finish by making one important

point. Please, finish. This is the first time the NHS has said before

the year has even started that we can't deliver on those standards. We

believe, as do most people who work in the NHS, that the NHS is on a

gradual slow decline. This is a very important inflection point to Mark,

this is the first time before the financial year starts that we say we

cannot meet the targets we are being asked to deliver and are in the NHS

Constitution. We have run out of time. Chris Hopson, thank you for

being with me. It's just gone 11:35am,

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

in Scotland who leave us now Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics

in Northern Ireland. The talks deadline

is fast approaching. I'll be speaking to Alliance

and the SDLP about the chances of getting Stormont up

and running again. We'll hear from Washington,

where a senior congressman is calling for an American presence

at the current talks. A very positive influence over the

years in the presence in the north to help keep people at the table.

And I'm joined by commentators David Gordon and Fionnuala O Connor,

with their views on another busy week on both sides of the Atlantic.

So we're two-thirds of the way through the talks process designed

to set up a new government in Northern Ireland.

But are we two-thirds of the way to a deal?

The noises from the British and Irish governments remain

positive, though in the end it will be the local parties who sign

I'm joined by the SDLP's Nichola Mallon and Stephen Farry

We did invite the DUP, Sinn Fein and the Ulster Unionists to join us,

Nichola Mallon, how optimistic are you that a deal can be done in the

time frame we are looking at? We are hopeful and we are committed,

playing our part. We believe we need to see an executive up and running

and has genuine power-sharing and that is delivering for people and a

rising to the challenges of Brexit and other critical issues. We are

hopeful, but if we are honest, the past two weeks have been no more

than shadow-boxing. We have been disappointed and frustrated that

hasn't been in all round table call for all the parties and we are

hopeful to see that tomorrow or as early as possible. Do you expect

things to wrap up this week? We have a very real deadline of next Monday

in terms of when the Assembly will convene. I am not necessarily

hopeful because there are major issues in terms of the approach the

parties are taking, but I am certain this can be done in the course of

the week. We have been in even more difficult spots where things have

moved over a shorter time frame than this in the past. Those issues have

been around for some time and has been talked about a the parties.

It's time for those parties to make a serious commitment to getting the

institutions up and running properly and function on behalf of the common

good of Northern Ireland. Some people might say it is a positive

point, perhaps, that the DUP and Sinn Fein don't want to make public

comment. They would rather see what they have to say behind closed

doors. Do you read anything into the fact we have chosen not to be here

this morning? No one is expecting them to come on here and reveal

their hands in terms of the negotiating process but it's

important there is a mechanism of informing the public. The public

sent a clear message to all of us on polling day and they want to see as

responding to it. It would have been helpful but it is their call to be

here are not. Both of your parties and the Ulster Unionist Party are

sitting on the sidelines watching the main action, which will be

between presumably the Secretary of State and Sinn Fein and the DUP. AM

on behalf of the SDLP because we have nothing to hide. We are keen,

we have a smaller mandate pension vein and the DUP. They got us to

this point, that is where the problem lies. That Israeli

resolution lies, but the SDLP would be found wanting in trying to

contribute to finding a lasting solution. The Alliance party is

expected to as well. It is difficult to form the Government without the

DUP Sinn Fein, but when you go into Government alone we don't get

delivery or result, we get collapse. If you go back to fresh start, that

was a false dawn. It was dominated by the two largest parties and

governments. The other three parties have a lot to bring to the table. We

have a lot of votes across Northern Ireland. That was a mistake on part

of the Alliance party not to join the last executive when you are

invited to take on the justice Ministry, a mistake he would meet

again this time? Our actions are vindicated. All parties should

aspire to be in Government, we idea to try and deliver our values. We

turned it down, but we turned it down because we don't feel that in

terms of how the executive are going to operate we don't have the

confidence we are going to have a fresh start. Frankly, we could not

have stayed in that executive. We saw abuse of the social investment

fund. You said you couldn't go into it last time round because you

couldn't give it your support. What happens if the same kind of deal you

don't like, but you think will fall apart without you being in there? In

terms of our current strength, we don't qualify. We haven't been

invited. We're not getting too far ahead of ourselves. We have been

clear, we have got the same conditions we set out last May.

We're going to have to reinforce some of those. We asked for a proper

strategy around paramilitaries. That has to have the clear. That has to

be fixed. Stephen Farry makes the point that the Alliance party would

be depended upon an invitation to join the executive but you could be

there in the SDLP as of right, would you take that seat as of right this

time round? We are very clear going into the selection that parties

fight to be in Government. The SDLP has never shunted responsibilities

when it comes to Government. We didn't take the decision lightly to

not go in last time. Sadly the reasons for us leaving have come to

pass and other parties are now up in arms about it. If we get fundamental

reform of the executive in terms of how it does business, a shift in the

relationships they are, programme Government that deliver, and agreed

plan to deal with Brexit and issues like that, we would be found

wanting. We wouldn't be going into Government just for the sake of

going in and neither will be stay in opposition because we are

politically point-scoring. Do you see any evidence that those issues

are being addressed during the process so far and two to reach a

positive outcome in eight days's time? We have had multiple meetings

with each of the parties touching on these issues. We are taking people

at face value, this is not about the SDLP getting its wish list, it is

about getting the critical movement on issues that matter to people.

Well we are all procrastinating, we have seen start-ups having to go to

the wall. We need to stop playing politics, get the right deal and

I'll get round the table. Things have to fundamentally change. What

about issues like, for example, Brexit. We will talk about legacy

any moment. Is there any sign of the joint approach on dealing with

Brexit? Those two parties have very different world views after we are

and where we need to be. There are some common ground between the

parties going back to statement from the First Minister last August in

terms of the Prime Minister, there was a recognition of some issues.

There is a lot of uncommon ground. That is the much bigger problem.

Unless we have an executive in place, we can't get a special deal

for Northern Ireland. We have to have a recognition first of all for

the local parties special deal and find a stronger common ground.

Northern Ireland is a very particular and unique place. There

is a major threat to the Good Friday Agreement for Brexit and it is all

about putting in place barriers. The Good Friday Agreement is about

people having a common ground. Unless they have the recognition

from a UK perspective, we are seeing it in Scotland no, it could further

destabilise this place. Particularly on Brexit, it's not just local

parties, we need a UK Government particularly over the next week to

come out with a clear statement, much more than they have done so far

and recognise the real challenge being close to Northern Ireland.

What chance to be deal on legacy? It is certainly one of the difficult

issues and despite Stormont house which was announced with great

fanfare, little to no movement has been made. The victim had been led

up the garden path so many times and let down. Unless we do get to grips

with the past, unless we recognise that no one has a monopoly on pain

and suffering, and the victims deserve treatment from that, we're

never going to move this please forward. Just a final thought, we

had comments from the Taoiseach Enda Kenny in Washington he had a reached

agreement with Theresa May that there would be no return to direct

rule from London if the negotiations failed. Did that make sense to you?

It make sense in that we have an abstract real deadline of Monday

27th, after that point we are going into another election, which is

fairly pointless, or any situation where the Government has to

negotiate in some shape or form for some direct rule are taking an

election of the table. Let's focus on getting a deal done over the next

week and making sure it's a good deal that will be sustainable and we

can stop the stop start politics destroying Northern Ireland. Do you

think Enda Kenny oversold that? There is no mood among the public

for an election. To rerun an election just because you didn't

like the result, because you want to see more dominant Unionist or more

Republican, it is completely wrong. ?5 million was spent on the last

election, the public has sent us a message, it's time to get down to

business and get the job done. Thank you both.

Let's hear from my guests of the day, Fionnuala O

Connor and David Gordon. What did you make of that? Does that

make you more optimistic that some agreement can be reached in eight

days are less so? It doesn't either. Both of those two are very able

politicians, the presented the party positions off a well incidental to

giving the view on what is happening, but they have been honest

enough to see the don't really know and Stephen Farry says it could be

done inside a week and Enda Nichola Mallon says has been a round table

yet. Clearly the icing the don't know. Didn't exactly say that, they

don't know what's happening between Sinn Fein, the DUP the Government

but when it comes to the wider picture of what the Government's

position is, which is the most interesting, we see more of their

hand than we do of Sinn Fein and the DGP's and Enda Kenny's drastic

overselling of what he was quickly slammed down by a Theresa May

spokesman as having said there was an agreement, there would be no

direct rule, is an indication the arrow at sixes and sevens. They've

both got problems with their own at the moment. Until recently you were

inside the executive tent. You have got a good understanding of what the

thinking might be on the part of the DUP Sinn Fein on these matters.

Would you regard yourself as optimistic that this issue can be

resolved or are we heading into the great unknown? We're heading into

the great unknown. We've got a sense of the scale of the challenge facing

the talks and when Stephen Farry talks about the business going often

different agreements on top processes, that has been part of the

problem. Things have been kicked down the road in number of times and

not sorted out. This time, this is the last chance to sort it out.

Legacy is the big issue, not as for the politicians, it is for both

committees. There is a lot to do any week leave got themselves into

corners, Sinn Fein and the DGP, on issues like Arlene Foster being able

to continue as First Minister. That is an interesting want to get into

it before the talks process has begun. It is almost academic any

sense we don't have an executive, it doesn't matter. Who is going to be

First Minister, Deputy First Minister? How do you regard that

situation? It did look like the DGP was trying not to paint a red light

and then Jeffrey Donaldson earlier in the week was speaking to Stephen

Nolan and suggested that was a red line and if Sinn Fein continued to

insist she couldn't be First Minister than they would -- there

would be to devolution? Jeffrey Donaldson, I will always remember

for his walk-out at the very last minute when any agreement was about

to be signed when David Trimble didn't know he was going. Jeffrey's

position in talks is somewhat an exotic one. The other one is that

for Sinn Fein to say that at the outset was an indication of what

they were there for. The work they are, it kicked into action by the

people, who didn't like it one bit what had been going on for a very

long time, not just the last month so.

Now with a look at the political week in 60 seconds,

At Stormont, MLAs signed in, but their leaders still haven't sat

together around the talks table. We make progress but it's very

difficult to know how we can make overall progress if we are not

sitting down around the table and the world is moving on around us.

After meeting President Trump pressing Patrick's Day, the

Taoiseach claimed there would be no return to direct rule. Have a clear

agreement with the British Government that there will be no

return to a hard border and there will be no direct rule brought back

from London. The outgoing Ulster Unionist Party denies denied his

election performance was down to him. That served as a lightning rod

that incredibly energised nationalists and republicans. Sinn

Fein MEP Martina Anderson not so politely told the Prime Minister

will she could pick the border. Theresa May, your notion of a

border, hard or soft, stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

George Mitchell, Richard Haass, Mitchel Reiss - some big American

names who have played significant roles in the Northern

And now one US congressman wants to see another

Joe Crowley was speaking to our correspondent,

Shane Harrison, in Washington and they also discussed the ongoing

But the Democrat started by stressing the positive impact

the USA can have in Northern Ireland.

The special convoy goes back to President Clinton's days and prior

to that I was in the legislator and saw it come to fruition as one of

the promises made when he was running for president. We have seen

the positive affect the US President's negotiations in the

north of Ireland between the north and south and the British Government

have been a very positive influence over the years on the presence in

the north to help keep people at the table. Gary Hart being the last and

most recent, but George Mitchell and very high-profile Americans. Richard

Howes -- Haas has been there as well. They have meant so much to the

process of peace and reconciliation in Northern Ireland. I think it's

important, especially now, given what seems to be a bit of an

election that has taken place that really hasn't demonstrated much

results in terms of what pretends that the future, whether there would

be able to put together a Government and if not how long, if it goes back

to Westminster, how long will be the before an election is called before

they go back, we'll Arlene Foster stay, will she not? What is the

presence of Michelle O'Neill have no in terms of Northern Irish politics

moving forward? These are all interesting new questions. The

Brexit issue, a hard border or a soft order, it is also something

that people are asking questions about. We have had the Assembly

election results. How important do you think it is that devolution be

restored to Northern Ireland? I think it needs to be brought to bear

to bring some resolutions to this. How that all pans out in the

politics of the north is yet to be seen, we don't know. There has been

a great deal of damage done to the DUP rant because of the campaign. In

terms of people's confidence, it has been diminished, demonstrated by the

polling results that took place. Really trying to find that balance

of restoring the Government is critical for the continuance of the

process. All of this is happening with Brexit as a backdrop and we are

ready to pay ministers say they don't want to return to the hard

borders of the past. How worried are you about the implications of Brexit

for Northern Ireland? I would hope there are some type of accommodation

that can be reached because I do believe that free access, free flow

of goods, has had a positive impact on the development of Ireland as a

whole, as well as the furtherance of peace in the north. It has not been

perfect and or those who have yet to feel the benefits benefits of that

peace process, many of whom are still struggling out of the culture

of Ireland that has existed for a very long period of time. We now see

a new generation of people from the Irish republicans, from the north of

Ireland, who have lived in peace for a considerable amount of time now, a

lengthy piece, and I think that is something that we can all look to in

terms of pride and that we've all contributed to that but also as an

anchor for a hopeful movement forward in this Brexit. What I also

think is of interest is the movement in Scotland now possibly for another

vote on devolution, independence for Scotland, what effect that will

have. Knowing that Scotland and Northern Ireland voted in the

majority to remain within the European Union. Do you think it hard

border could threaten the peace process? Do the size of Ireland

believe that all parts of Ireland, all provinces, every county is a

part in all of traditional islands, I think that in the border counties

that could create even more tension and stress. Economically when there

are two separate economy is taking place that had an impact on terms of

the disgruntled nature that had taken place. Aside from the

nationalists issues coming into play, there are economic issues that

come into play as well. We have seen a growth in the peace process. My

hope is that we can come to some kind of agreement to prevent a hard

border. My mother is from ten to Amat, I'm very familiar with the

checkpoints and the soldiers, that added stress that added to the

overall community. I would go back to that.

Democratic congressman Joe Crowley emphasising his Irish credentials

there, and listening to that Fionnula O Connor and David Gordon.

Is that just another US politician auditioning for a job can we really

expect a significant American presence in the talks over the next

weeks and months? He could be auditioning, he sounds a reasonable

man, he doesn't sound like a sure water. Which would be a good thing.

Can we expect one? Perhaps it is very definitely quite high on the

Nationalist agenda that James Brokenshire is not a legitimate

chairman of talks. West Theresa May making it clear, re-emphasising, she

is not treating the Irish Government as an equal partner which I think

she is doing and playing down their role in the settlement. It's another

reason for wanting somebody from outside. As to whether he would be a

significant chair, that something else, we are past that stage. It is

arguable the previous jurors were not that significant. Ian Paisley

was in Washington and he was talking up the Trump interest in Northern

Ireland, the significance of it, the way in which Trump and his people

have a handle on what's happening here and there is a possibility that

Northern Ireland could be on the agenda if he does indeed visit the

UK. Do you buy all of that? Seanad Eireann Edward Lucie that. The whole

point of Trump is America first, putting America first. Ian Paisley

and back a long way. There is a fellow feeling there. The brutal

truth is that we are pretty much on our own. To think that America is

going to help us... If there's going to be a deal, it's going to be

between the parties. Doesn't help anybody that Trump is apparently

making a state visit to the UK and now he's been invited and accepted

an invitation from Enda Kenny to visit the Republic? All know, of

course it doesn't. He is such a lightweight in every other week in

his position that you couldn't have any fees at all in what he might say

or do when he's here. The two governments, the Irish and the

British Government at the most worrying and missing link at the

moment. If they were exerting pressure on Sinn Fein and the DUP

that would be something else. For different reasons, they are not. It

is the vacuum. When I said no previous cheers, I meant no previous

envoys, had an effect. George Mitchell had a huge effect.

That's it from us. Now back to Andrew in London.

That's it from us. you both. Say goodbye. Goodbye. Back

to you. So, can George Osborne stay

on as a member of Parliament Will Conservative backbenchers force

a Government re-think And is Theresa May about to cap gas

and electricity prices? Whose idea was that first of all?

They are all questions for the Week Ahead to.

Let's start with the story that is too much fun to miss, on Friday it

was announced the former Chancellor would be the new editor of London's

Evening Standard newspaper, a position he will take up in mid-May

on a salary of ?200,000 for four days a week.

But Mr Osborne has said he will not be stepping down as MP

for Tatton in Cheshire, a job he's held since 2001,

Alongside these duties, he's also chairman of

While being committed to one day a week at Black Rock,

an American asset management firm - a part-time role that earns him

Then he's polishing his academic credentials, as a fellow

at the McCain Institute, an American thinktank,

And finally as a member of the Washington Speaker's Bureau,

he also earns his keep as an after-dinner speaker, banking

around ?750,000 since last summer.

So there you go. Nice little earners if you can get them. The problem,

though, is he has put second jobs on the agenda and lots of his fellow

MPs are not happy because they have got second jobs but not making that

kind of money. No, and a lot of MPs on both sides actually are unhappy

about it exactly for those reasons. I find it a very interesting

appointment. We have got these people on the centre and centre

right of politics who have been used to power since 1997, they have been

on the airwaves today, Tony Blair, Nick Clegg, George Osborne, and they

are all seeking other platforms now because power has moved elsewhere.

So Tony Blair is setting up this new foundation, Nick Clegg refused to

condemn George Osborne, Tony Blair praised the appointment. They are

all searching for new platforms. They might have overestimated the

degree to which this will be a huge influential platform. The standard

was very pro-Tory at the 2015 election but London voted Labour, it

was pro-Zac Goldsmith but they elected Sadiq Khan. It might be

overestimating the degree to which this is a hugely influential paper.

But I can see why it attracts him as a platform when all these platforms

have disappeared, eg power and government. All of these people who

used to be in power are quietly getting together again, Mr Blair on

television this morning, George Osborne not only filling his bank

account but now in charge of London's most important newspaper,

Nick Clegg out today not saying Brexit was a done deal, waiting to

see what happens, even John Major was wheeled out again today in the

Mail on Sunday. They are all playing for position. I half expect David

Cameron to turn up as features editor on The Evening Standard.

Brexit and breakfast! With Mr Clegg, did he not? I do not think this is

sustainable for George Osborne, I worked at The Evening Standard and I

was there for three years, I know what the hours are like for a humble

journalist, never mind the editor. If he thinks he can get at 4am

everyday to be in the offices at 5am to oversee the splash, manage

everything in the way and edited should he is in cloud cuckoo land.

What this says to people is there is a kind of feel of soft corruption

about public life here, where you see what you can get away with. He

thinks he can brazen this out and maybe he can but what kind of

message does that send to people about how seriously people take the

role of being an MP? He must have known. He applied for the job. The

Russian owner didn't approach him, he approached Lebedev, the

proprietor, for it. He must have calculated there would be some

kickback. I wonder if he realised there would be quite the kickback

there has been. I think that's probably right. This hasn't finished

yet, by the way, this will go on and on. How on earth does George Osborne

cover the budget in the autumn? Big budget, lots of physical changes and

tax rises to deal with the messages out of this week. You can see

already, Theresa May budget crashes. It could be worse. She's useless!

Or, worse than that, me, brilliant budget, terrible newspaper, I've

never buying it again. He has hoisted his own petard. He has not

bought it properly through. It's a something interesting about his own

future calculations, if he wants to stay on as an MP in 2020 and be

Prime Minister as he has or was wanted to be he has got to find a

new seat. How do you go into an association and say I should be an

MP, I can do it for at least four hours Purdy after editing The

Evening Standard, making a big speech and telling Black Rock how to

make a big profit. The feature pages have to be approved for the next day

and feature pages are aware the editor gets to make their mark. The

news is the news. The feature is what concerns you, what he is in

your bonnet. That defines the newspaper, doesn't it? It is not

over yet. Too much 101 on newspapers. And Haatheq at.

School funding, the consultation period ends, it has been a tricky

one for the government, some areas losing. I guess we are seeing this

through the prism of the National Insurance contributions now, it is a

small majority, if Tory MPs are unhappy she may not get her way.

Talking to backbench MPs who are unhappy the feeling is it is not

going to go ahead in the proposed form that the consultation has been

on. No 10 will definitely have to move on this. It is unclear whether

they will scrap it completely, or will they bring in something

possibly like a base level, floor level pupil funding below which you

can't go? You would then still need to find some extra money. So there

are no easy solutions on this but what is clear it is not going to go

ahead in its current form. Parents have been getting letters across the

country in England about what this will mean for teachers and so on in

certain schools. It's not just a matter of the education Department,

the schools, or the teachers and Tory backbenchers. Parents are being

mobilised on this. The point of the new funding formula is to allocate

more money to the more disadvantaged. That means schools in

the more prosperous suburbs are going to lose money. Budget cuts on

schools which are already struggling. It comes down again to

be huge problem, the ever smaller fiscal pool, ever greater demands,

NHS, social care, education as well, adding to Theresa May and Phillip

Hammond's enormous problems. Here is an interesting issue, Steve. There

was a labour Leader of the Opposition that once suggested

perhaps given these huge energy companies which seemed to be good at

passing on energy rises but not so good at cutting energy prices when

it falls, that perhaps we should put a cap on them until at least we

study how the market goes. This was obviously ludicrous Marxism and

quite rightly knocked down by the Conservatives, except that Mrs May

is now talking about putting a cap on energy prices. Yes, I think if it

wasn't for Brexit we would focus much more on Theresa May's Ed

Miliband streak. Whether this translates into policies, let us

see. That bit we don't know. That bit we don't know but in terms of

argument her speech to the Conservative conference on Friday

was about the third or fourth time where she said as part of the

speech, let's focus on the good that government can do, including in

intervening in markets, exactly in the way that he used to argue. As

you say, we await the policy consequences of that. She seems more

cautious in terms of policy in fermentation. But in terms of the

industrial strategy, in terms of implying intervention in certain

markets, there is a kind of Milibandesque streak. And there

comes a time when she has to walk the walk as well as talk the talk.

They talk a lot about the just about managing, just about managing face

rising food bills because of the lower pound and face rising fuel

bills because of the rise in oil and in other commodities. One of the two

things you could do to help the just about managing is to cut their food

bills and the second would be to cut their fuel bills. At some stage she

has to do something for them. We don't know what is going to happen

to food bills under Brexit, that could become a really serious issue.

They could abolish tariffs. There has been a lot of talking the talk

and big announcements put out and not following through so I agree

with you on that but lots of Tory MPs will have a big problem on

this and the principle of continually talking about

interfering in markets, whether it's on executive pay, whether it is on

energy, at a time when Britain needs to send out this message to the

world in their view, in the view of Brexit supporting MPs, that we are

open for business and the government is not about poking around and doing

this kind of thing. Of course, you could argue there is not a problem

in the market for energy, it is a malfunctioning market that doesn't

operate like a free market should, so that provides even Adam Smith,

the inventor of market economics would have said on that basis you

should intervene. I was in Cardiff to listen to Theresa May's latest

explanation for doing this. By the way, we've been waiting nine months,

this was one of her big ideas. You are right, let's see a bit of the

meat, please. My newspaper has been calling for some pretty hefty

government action on this for quite some time. For the just about

managings? Yes and specifically to sort out an energy market dominated

by the big six, which is manifestly ripping people off left, right and

centre. Theresa May's argument ripping people off left, right and

centre. Theresa May's argument in Cardiff on Friday morning which, by

the way, went down like a proverbial windbreak at the proverbial funeral

because Tories... You know what I mean Andrew, the big hand coming

into from the state telling businesses what to do. They went

very quiet indeed. They were having saving the union and Nato but there

was no clapping for that. The point being, this is what she needs to do

to prove her assault, to prove those first words on the steps of Downing

Street. We await to see the actions taken.

On that unusual agreement we will leave it there. The Daily Politics

will be back on BBC Two tomorrow at noon and everyday during the week.

And I'll be here on BBC One next Sunday at 11am.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.