Browse content similar to 15/01/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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And on Sunday politics in Scotland, what is the first ministers | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
negotiating position as the talks begin on the referendum questions | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
and conditions? And what has the Scottish Secretary got to say about | :01:33. | :01:42. | |
:01:43. | :01:43. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1578 seconds | :01:43. | :28:01. | |
Subtitles will resume shortly. We have no control over the fiscal | :28:01. | :28:09. | |
levers. This exists for most countries, but a complete control | :28:09. | :28:17. | |
of all of the levers. The Bank of England will have a big say on how | :28:17. | :28:24. | |
much you borrow. They will want to control the borrowing. Each country | :28:24. | :28:30. | |
borrows its own money. There is a sovereign problem. I would not | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
imagine any government of persuasion would want to over- | :28:33. | :28:40. | |
borrowed to the extent of this. have our business partner as London. | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
If we became a separate nation it would be our biggest competitor. | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
What we are saying is that we are letting a our biggest competitor | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
set the interest rates and limits. How is that economically credible | :28:53. | :29:03. | |
:29:03. | :29:04. | ||
for a separate nation. Final word. We will have control over the | :29:04. | :29:13. | |
fiscal levers, that is a far better position than what we have now. We | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
sell there and buy from England as we compete from and buy from | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
countries around the world. We don't deal with England just as | :29:21. | :29:31. | |
:29:31. | :29:33. | ||
part of United Kingdom or whether It is coming up to 12:30pm. You are | :29:33. | :29:42. | |
watching the Sunday politics. afternoon, welcome to the new look | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
Sunday politics in Scotland. The First Minister on his approach to | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
the referendum negotiations between Holyrood and Westminster. He says | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
he would rather talk to David and Nick, the Scottish Secretary is | :29:56. | :30:02. | |
here to talk to us about his lines in the sand. And the road to | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
devolution, what role will civic society play in this independence | :30:06. | :30:16. | |
debate. So, one week down and only 139 weeks to go in the independence | :30:16. | :30:23. | |
referendum debate. Nina Buchanan has been looking at how and when | :30:23. | :30:33. | |
:30:33. | :30:37. | ||
Politically the stakes don't get any higher than this. The main | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
prize is the constitutional future. After years of wrangling, all of | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
the main players agree, they should be a referendum vote. David Cameron | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
was the first to show some of his hand. There can only be a | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
referendum if Westminster this be the glue authority for it to take | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
place. He says that could happen but only with conditions. We should | :31:00. | :31:06. | |
not just let this go on year after year. It is damaging for everybody. | :31:06. | :31:12. | |
Let us clear up the situation. My view is sooner rather than later | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
would be better. The Lib Dem Scottish secretary then said what | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
they would expect from a referendum. They would expect electoral | :31:21. | :31:27. | |
commission to be involved, No 16 year olds get into votes, and one | :31:27. | :31:33. | |
simple yes or no question. But Alex Salmond, flush with his boats from | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
the last election, said he did not need to play by Westminster rules | :31:38. | :31:44. | |
and seemed to suggest his view was there should be no deal. This is a | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
huge decision for Scotland. Potentially the biggest decision we | :31:48. | :31:54. | |
have made for a nation for 300 years. We will not be cocooned by a | :31:54. | :32:00. | |
Tory prime minister in London. Friday he seemed to re-enter the | :32:00. | :32:05. | |
game saying he would meet up with the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
Minister to discuss a potential referendum deal. What is there to | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
discuss? The insistence on giving 16 year olds the vote, and the | :32:13. | :32:20. | |
policy of an independent commission to run the election. The climax is | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
a potential second question, asking for more powers for the Scottish | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
parliament. Something the main Unionist parties don't want to get | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
into. These are risky times for the Labour Party, in Scotland and | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
London. They suggest they would prefer greater powers for the | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
Scottish parliament, but have no firm policy on that. I simply say | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
no they risk applying themselves closely with the Conservatives. | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
it is not fair on scholar now, or Scotland of the future for the | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
timing of this referendum to be the there in the hands of one | :32:56. | :33:04. | |
politician. This referendum belongs not to politicians but to the | :33:04. | :33:09. | |
people of Scotland. Therefore, it is the challenge of leadership to | :33:09. | :33:15. | |
build a consensus on how the referendum is run. How will this | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
all played out in the long run, foreign first ministry could accept | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
the Westminster deal and get his yes or no referendum. The opinion | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
polls suggest that the moment he would lose it. Or he could go it | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
alone, but that risks a legal challenge. He will then have to win | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
the referendum, supposing the courts allow him to. Then for the | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
coalition there are risks. If the deal is done we could lose Scotland | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
and the Union. If this goes to the courts it could be seen as an | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
obstacle to the will of the Scottish people. For the Labour | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
Party, it could be seen as co- operating with the Conservatives in | :33:54. | :33:59. | |
Scotland, which is electronic toxic. At the moment they have yet to come | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
up with a coherent policy which would see new powers for Edinburgh. | :34:03. | :34:10. | |
Currently, they are simply saying The first minister is currently on | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
a trip to United Arab Emirates, but before he went, he met us. He said | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
he is very happy to have talks but is unsure whether he will get the | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
top-level discussions he wants any time soon. I have been trying to | :34:24. | :34:29. | |
meet the Prime Minister about six times since we last met in July. | :34:29. | :34:38. | |
Each time, Downing Street has been a un keen on having we are in a | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
Thatcher like mode, the Prime Minister is behaving like Thatcher. | :34:42. | :34:48. | |
Perhaps he has flipped, as she used to save. I do hope we can get into | :34:48. | :34:54. | |
meaningful discussions. Just so long as what is excepted are right | :34:54. | :34:59. | |
for Scotland. These matters were debated extensively at the election | :34:59. | :35:06. | |
of Scotland, the SNP government and other people who supports cholent | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
have a commanding majority in the parliament. -- who support Scotland. | :35:11. | :35:16. | |
We are happier tittle, but it must be on the basis that these matters | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
are Scotland's decision. They must be a referendum constructed in | :35:21. | :35:26. | |
Scotland and decided by the good wisdom and judgment of BP poor. | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
whom do you have to top, Michael Moore, you must talk to when you | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
want to. Does it have to be the prime minister and deputy prime | :35:34. | :35:39. | |
minister? What is the meaningful interaction at this stage? Clearly | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
it must be with those making the decisions. The cavernous set up | :35:43. | :35:48. | |
what they call a quarter, a group of people who spend their time | :35:48. | :35:54. | |
dreaming up how they can deal with the Scottish question. That | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
includes the Prime Minister and Chancellor, the Liberal Party | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
leader and Danny Alexander. It does not involve the Scottish Secretary. | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
Do you have to speak to members of that group or it is it not worth | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
having a conversation at this stage? When the UK Cabinet took the | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
extraordinary actions this week it was George Osborne, the Chancellor | :36:13. | :36:20. | |
of the Exchequer, who presented it. You must talk to folk making the | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
decision. I will talk to anybody. If you are going to make progress, | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
you must talk to those making the decision. Are you disappointed they | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
haven't agreed to talk? I am disappointed but I don't think it | :36:34. | :36:41. | |
is sustainable. You must not say you just step back, and leave | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
somebody else to do the talking. The Downing Street position is | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
unsustainable. Willett be impossible to have a resolution in | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
the next eight weeks on BT's substantive issue? Unless there is | :36:53. | :37:00. | |
fast movement? I am always prepared to move fast but the timetable we | :37:00. | :37:06. | |
will set in Scotland, is a proper timetable. A week on Wednesday, we | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
will be introducing to the Scottish parliament the consultation | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
document from the government, for the Scottish Community. Not just | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
for politicians but for the whole Scottish community, civic Scotland, | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
about our proposals as a government and how we should conduct the | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
referendum. Then we will listen to the boys of Scotland. That is how | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
we must proceed. Not with some artificially constructed timetable | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
dreamt up in the bowels of Downing Street. If we look then, to be | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
essential tool, what happens with the legality of Scottish parliament | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
holding a referendum? When he published the legal advice? | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
Governments don't publish legal advice, I will not start. But there | :37:51. | :37:56. | |
is plenty of advice out there. With the constitutional law and | :37:56. | :38:04. | |
Edinburgh University. The people who wrote the textbook on it. The | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
government had only said what their opinion is, they have not publish | :38:08. | :38:14. | |
the legal advice. See if we can cut through this though, nobody in the | :38:14. | :38:19. | |
SNP government has an objection to section 30. A legally binding | :38:19. | :38:27. | |
referendum. What we object to is the strength attached to section 30. | :38:27. | :38:33. | |
It was offered as a great gesture, but then you say, incidentally, | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
when you hold this referendum this is how you well-conducted and who | :38:37. | :38:44. | |
will vote. Just before we leave the legal aspect, what do you do with | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
these legal loose ends which could unravel spectacularly? Injecting | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
some poison to the body politics. It could have an effect for many | :38:53. | :39:01. | |
years. Most of the referendums which have been conducted need to | :39:01. | :39:06. | |
be consulted. I am happy to have a legally binding referendum, but the | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
facts is, the referendum, which the coalition government conducted last | :39:10. | :39:16. | |
year, it was a Conservative referendum. Nothing unusual about | :39:16. | :39:23. | |
that, but I am happy to have a legally binding one. Not with | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
Westminster setting the terms and conditions though. These are days | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
that are over. Can I ask you about the Scottish Conservative point. | :39:32. | :39:39. | |
Unless it is legally binding, then, you will have access not to be full | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
official register, but to be publicly available register, and | :39:44. | :39:51. | |
that effectively disenfranchise is them. Scottish Tories have got it | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
wrong in every respect. The referendum, whether it is legally | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
binding on not, will be an act of Scottish parliament. That Act | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
defines the electoral register and it would be the full electoral | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
register. You have nothing to negotiate. He said it is our deal | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
or no deal, but that is not sustainable. At some point the | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
public think it is manipulative if the SNP choose the question, who | :40:18. | :40:24. | |
runs it, who votes, if they are in for Scotland's interests, they will | :40:24. | :40:30. | |
negotiate, so what do you negotiate. If you get the timing the ones, are | :40:30. | :40:36. | |
you willing to say, just one question? We should wait until the | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
documents are published, a week on Wednesday. Many of the anxieties of | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
fears that people have raised will disappear when the consultation | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
document is issued. The one thing we can't surrender, the one thing | :40:49. | :40:54. | |
we can't give up on, is that these are matters for Scotland and the | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
Scottish Parliament to decide. The Scottish committee to decide. We | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
cannot have a Scottish referendum on the future of this country, the | :41:02. | :41:08. | |
biggest decision for 300 years, manipulated in Downing Street. | :41:08. | :41:14. | |
you look at what may be acceptable to you now, what the existing | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
electoral commission be acceptable to you to run the referendum, if it | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
were to report to the Scottish parliament. As is your rights, you | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
are trying to get me to describe the entire context of a | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
consultation document. But Parliament would look askance if I | :41:31. | :41:37. | |
did. The consultation document will take things forward, what it will | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
never ever give up on is that these are matters for Scotland to decide. | :41:42. | :41:48. | |
Can I ask you who were defined the devo-max question? That is the | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
elephant in the room. That is a point I have may not just this week | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
but in the months passed. The SNP must define independence. That is | :41:57. | :42:02. | |
our job, we are the party for independence and I have called | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
successfully and successively for the devo-max position to be defined. | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
The documents have defined what the position could be, but I do accept | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
it is for others to come forward. It has some very important | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
champions in Scottish society, Scotland's biggest job at the | :42:21. | :42:26. | |
moment, with Jim a call, he was an ardent supporter of the vote next. | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
Many of the Civic positions are very keen on the Defoe Max | :42:30. | :42:36. | |
proposition. I think they should have three time and space to define | :42:36. | :42:42. | |
the option. -- devo-max. Do you retain the position, as highlighted, | :42:42. | :42:50. | |
that if devo-max is a referendum question, a 51 per cent vote for | :42:50. | :42:55. | |
independence would secured independence even if there is a 78 | :42:55. | :43:00. | |
per cent, 82 per cent vote, for devo-max. That is not a sustainable | :43:00. | :43:07. | |
proposition, is it? Thinking back to 1997 when we had a two question | :43:07. | :43:14. | |
referendum, in 1997, the percentage vote for the parliament without | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
taxation powers was higher than the vote for a parliament with taxation | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
powers. The first vote was higher than the second vote. The | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
formulation of the questions is part of the discussion. | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
Incidentally, despite the fact the Prime Minister has been adamant in | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
saying only one question, if you look at the consultation document | :43:35. | :43:42. | |
released it asks for consultation on questions, after ruling out | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
another question, they are willing to consult on it. A number of | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
contradictions coming from London over the last few days. Are you | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
saying that he would consider possibly having a street -- | :43:55. | :44:05. | |
straight devo-max question? We will consult the proposals, the | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
proposals which the government think are sensible. Hours, perhaps | :44:09. | :44:14. | |
like -- unlike the ones elsewhere, will be for the community of | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
Scotland and in consultation with the Committee of Scotland. Another | :44:17. | :44:24. | |
option, if the community of Scotland wishes. Let me ask you | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
about the deepening crisis in the euro-zone. Is it your position now | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
that whatever happens in the euro- zone, Scotland will at some point, | :44:32. | :44:37. | |
it is your intention, to ask: to join the euro? What are we now | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
moving towards territory where you will have to review that? We will | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
have to see what comes up. For a monetary union to come together its | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
does not need fiscal union. It's set in its fiscal discipline, but | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
that is not something which frightens us. Fiscal integration | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
would be something different. We are not at that stage. Many | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
questions within the euro, very successfully in the euro, not the | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
ones under great pressure right now which has struggled, but our | :45:07. | :45:14. | |
position is staying with sterling until we can take a position on the | :45:14. | :45:19. | |
euro. It is a strong situation, I was amazed to hear, not said, but | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
reported in the press, that we would not be allowed to use | :45:23. | :45:28. | |
sterling. The UK government cannot stop and independence: from using | :45:28. | :45:33. | |
sterling. 1, sterling is not owned by George Osborne, he has been | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
chancellor for 18 months. Sterling has been around a long time. The | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
Bank of England was founded by a Scot before the act of Unionism. | :45:41. | :45:47. | |
But it is a convertible currency. You could not stop people. I don't | :45:47. | :45:57. | |
:45:57. | :46:01. | ||
know what George Osborne has his But if the euro does not develop in | :46:01. | :46:11. | |
:46:11. | :46:12. | ||
ways you like, we might stay with Sterling forever? Our purpose is to | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
further the Scottish interest, anything we do will always be in | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
the Scottish interest. The Chancellor of the Exchequer does | :46:20. | :46:26. | |
not own Sterling and he cannot prevent people in Scotland from | :46:26. | :46:33. | |
using it. But you think in your mind it may not be beneficial to | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
Scotland to enter the euro? great advantage of independence is | :46:37. | :46:42. | |
that it allowed you to choose what is in the best interests of | :46:42. | :46:47. | |
Scotland, even under devolution deer are many subjects, defence, | :46:47. | :46:52. | |
social security, where we cannot choose what is in the best | :46:52. | :47:02. | |
:47:02. | :47:04. | ||
interests of our country. The First Minister seems to be suggesting | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
there is not a lot of point in talking to you, do you still want | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
to meet within this week? I think it is important that we should go | :47:13. | :47:18. | |
on and discuss what we will do to make sure that in Scotland we | :47:18. | :47:23. | |
create a referendum on the biggest decision we will ever take in our | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
lives here in this country. We must make sure it is legal and that at | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
the end of the process we will know exactly remit will leave us here in | :47:33. | :47:43. | |
:47:43. | :47:47. | ||
Scotland. Either as part of one of the most six six full -- successful | :47:47. | :47:56. | |
nations in history or on our own. I drafted the consultation document | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
which I prayer presented -- represented to the Commons on | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
Tuesday. We have worked together as a Government and as a cabinet | :48:04. | :48:10. | |
agreed that. It does not just involve us as politicians, it is | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
about people across Scotland being able to be part of the | :48:15. | :48:21. | |
consideration of how we make this most important choice. The | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
fundamental starting point is that it should be legal. Alex Salmond is | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
making a distinction between legally binding or consultative. At | :48:30. | :48:35. | |
the moment we could not have any kind of a referendum because it is | :48:35. | :48:41. | |
not a power of the Scottish Parliament. It needs to be. We have | :48:41. | :48:47. | |
to give the Scottish Parliament the power. We must make the referendum | :48:47. | :48:56. | |
here in Scotland and have a fair one. On May 7th on this show when I | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
asked if you accept that the Scottish Parliament has the right | :49:00. | :49:06. | |
and the legal power to build a referendum on independence you said | :49:06. | :49:12. | |
we could I suppose make a constitutional issue but I do not | :49:12. | :49:18. | |
think that is a sensible use of anyone's time. You said it is much | :49:18. | :49:25. | |
more important we have their debate than have a debate about whether we | :49:25. | :49:32. | |
can have an debate. What has changed? As we looked carefully at | :49:32. | :49:37. | |
the situation it is very evident to me and to most people that I talk | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
to than the legal power is not there so what I have said about | :49:42. | :49:47. | |
let's not have a debate about the debate, I think temper rally we | :49:47. | :49:53. | |
will have to have that. We must ensure the politicians clear the | :49:53. | :49:58. | |
rules of the game. Politicians across Scotland can give us their | :49:58. | :50:04. | |
views and I started a process on Tuesday so we can have a referendum | :50:04. | :50:09. | |
here at home in Scotland which is fair and clear cut. What we do not | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
want at the end of this process is to have a referendum where someone | :50:13. | :50:19. | |
might challenge the result. This is huge, it is really important about | :50:19. | :50:25. | |
our future so let's get on with it. We will look at your consultation | :50:25. | :50:30. | |
paper in more detail in a moment but can you give us your opinion on | :50:30. | :50:40. | |
:50:40. | :50:40. | ||
the Sterling issue? This is absolutely central to the debate, | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
whether or not Scotland continued with Sterling is a matter that | :50:43. | :50:50. | |
would have to be discussed and debated. What we have been seeing | :50:50. | :50:57. | |
is that -- saying is that you have to be clear whether or not you are | :50:57. | :51:04. | |
going to accept that your interest rates will be set in London. | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
have heard a lot of debate about the mechanics but in principle do | :51:08. | :51:14. | |
you accept that Scotland has the legal right to continue using | :51:14. | :51:24. | |
Sterling post-independence? If that is part of the deal that the | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
independence section of the debate wanted that would be part of it. We | :51:28. | :51:34. | |
could have it but I think you would have to think of the consequences | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
about who would set interest rates and what it would mean for you | :51:37. | :51:46. | |
spending and borrowing plans. I have seen senior SNP members asked | :51:46. | :51:56. | |
about that and the do not get onto it. Just to move along, there is a | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
lot of ground I want to cover, briefly, it is it the case you have | :52:00. | :52:10. | |
:52:10. | :52:13. | ||
now actually conceded Debate? -- the date. What we said is we want | :52:13. | :52:19. | |
to get on with it and have it sooner rather than later. But if it | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
is autumn 2014, can you live with that? The First Minister has put | :52:24. | :52:33. | |
that forward as his preference. We are engaging voices across Scotland. | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
We will see where the debate glance but I'm very firmly believe we | :52:37. | :52:46. | |
should have it at -- as soon as we can. So that is not a line in the | :52:46. | :52:51. | |
sand for you. Can we also get clarity on the idea that you could | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
legislate to allow the electoral commission to report to the | :52:55. | :53:01. | |
Scottish Government in the case of this referendum. Is it the case | :53:01. | :53:05. | |
that you think that is something you might concede and it might be | :53:05. | :53:12. | |
constructive? That was in the consultation document. We envisaged | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
that we couldn't of a body like the electoral commission which is | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
neutral and has a great deal of experience of running these types | :53:19. | :53:28. | |
:53:29. | :53:30. | ||
of events so, yes. Just to clarify, to specifically report to the | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
Scottish Parliament, that is the whole point? You would change the | :53:33. | :53:39. | |
law to allow that to happen? that was in the document I launched | :53:39. | :53:44. | |
on Tuesday for those who wish to look at it. Page 15 down the bottom. | :53:44. | :53:52. | |
It is very clearly the year. -- very clearly the it. Yes, that is | :53:52. | :54:02. | |
:54:02. | :54:06. | ||
there and that is how we envisage it. -- clearly there. Under the | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
heading a decisive referendum, what are your views on the question or | :54:11. | :54:21. | |
:54:21. | :54:22. | ||
questions to be asked in the referendum? Will you negotiate? | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
said on Tuesday and all colleagues have been saying the same thing | :54:26. | :54:32. | |
that our preference is for a single question. We think we need to | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
resolve this fundamentally important matter. Are we in | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
Scotland going to continue as part of the UK or are we going to go our | :54:39. | :54:45. | |
separate way? That is the question that needs to be asked. The reason | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
I think we need a single question is that clearly the SNP got a | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
majority in May last year which committed them to a referendum on | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
independence. We need to allow them to have that and that is what the | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
debate is around. Once we have resolved that matter I think it is | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
entirely right that we should consider within the UK what our | :55:05. | :55:11. | |
powers are. How would like to give the Scottish Parliament many more | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
powers along with other parties in Scotland but we want to resolve the | :55:16. | :55:25. | |
simple question, do we want to be independent or not? For a lot of | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
Botha's this will be confusing because one option is pretty much | :55:29. | :55:36. | |
federalism. It is presented as a safety measure for the First | :55:36. | :55:44. | |
Minister but it could be a safety measure for the union. I think it | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
is important we resolve the question of whether we stay as part | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
of the UK or not. After that I think there is an entirely | :55:52. | :55:57. | |
legitimate debate about how much further we want to enhance the | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
Scottish Parliament's powers. Willie Rennie has already set up a | :56:02. | :56:09. | |
commission chaired by men Campbell which looks at these powers. -- | :56:10. | :56:19. | |
:56:20. | :56:21. | ||
Ming. The issue for now is, are we continuing with in the UK? Thank | :56:21. | :56:28. | |
you for talking to us. So, who will champion the massive expanse of | :56:28. | :56:35. | |
political territory between the Scotland Bill recommendations and | :56:35. | :56:43. | |
full-blown independence. What does that mean? It is allies down for | :56:43. | :56:48. | |
musical bingo in Edinburgh. People are known to come out in force on | :56:48. | :56:56. | |
polling day but eight Scotland fear the use of organisations like | :56:56. | :57:06. | |
:57:06. | :57:08. | ||
theirs will be drowned out by party politics. What we have seen in the | :57:08. | :57:12. | |
first week is that the debate has all been about process and name- | :57:12. | :57:17. | |
calling between Westminster and Holyrood. So that the people of | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
Scotland are given an informed choice it is important that civic | :57:20. | :57:28. | |
society takes a hold of this whole debate. Lycee know and we are the | :57:28. | :57:38. | |
:57:38. | :57:39. | ||
State, will we say yes and we are dead people. -- we say. -- the | :57:39. | :57:49. | |
:57:49. | :57:52. | ||
people. The STUC want to set up a referendum commission. Decisions | :57:52. | :57:59. | |
taken by the political parties on things like proportional | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
representation is fundamental to getting the broad consensus which | :58:02. | :58:10. | |
led to quite a united campaign for the issues on the referendum. | :58:10. | :58:15. | |
you see met for the first time in 1989 here at the General Assembly | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
Halls on the mind where they discussed the formation of the | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
Scottish Parliament. It is hoped that now the views of civic society | :58:23. | :58:33. | |
:58:33. | :58:37. | ||
will be heard again. In bigger nations like England Germany or | :58:37. | :58:42. | |
France it is different. This organisation will play a | :58:42. | :58:48. | |
determining role in the referendum. We will listen to civic Scotland | :58:48. | :58:54. | |
and their point of view. But is listening putting a second question | :58:54. | :59:02. | |
on the ballot paper? If it is a simple choice of independence or | :59:03. | :59:10. | |
the status quo, independence might win. Something in between the two | :59:10. | :59:17. | |
extremes might be the option that would win. The challenge for those | :59:17. | :59:21. | |
representing civics society is how it they can work together on the | :59:21. | :59:27. | |
next 2.5 years to get the questions they want on the ballot paper. With | :59:27. | :59:34. | |
me in the studio now is the chairman of the think tank Reform | :59:34. | :59:42. | |
Scotland and someone who chaired the Scottish Civic Forum. Are the | :59:42. | :59:47. | |
politicians letting us down this week? His party politics taking too | :59:47. | :59:50. | |
much of it all and we should be looking at the wider interests of | :59:50. | :59:56. | |
Scotland? I think no one who really cares about the future of Scotland | :59:56. | :00:03. | |
could want to keep the third option of the ballot paper. It is quite | :00:03. | :00:09. | |
clear that that is the kind of option that the largest majority of | :00:09. | :00:16. | |
Scottish voters would feel most comfortable with at the moment. It | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
should be a question which allows people who want to opt for | :00:20. | :00:25. | |
independence to do so and for those who have not done so to say that | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
short of independence would you like to open negotiations for more | :00:30. | :00:37. | |
powers? There has been a huge amount of breath wasted this week | :00:37. | :00:47. | |
:00:47. | :00:51. | ||
over legality. I think anything which does not allow more enhanced | :00:51. | :01:00. | |
evolution options is not good. I do not think they should have a | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
definite No or yes to independence because if it is a narrow know it | :01:04. | :01:13. | |
where does that leave us? It does not end the question of | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
independence. In whose interests is that? It is just party politicians | :01:18. | :01:25. | |
trying to do each other down. anything clear to you about where | :01:25. | :01:30. | |
this is going? The process is not particularly clear. I think that | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
what we have seen in the last week has been a lot of party political | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
posturing. The point is we are not looking at the different options | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
and the details of those options, whether that is a form of | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
independence or what is actually what the status quo can offer us or | :01:48. | :01:54. | |
from our point of view what the alternative is in the middle. | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
middle ground is massive. Who should formulate the devolution | :02:00. | :02:09. | |
plus question? What we have done at the Reform Scotland is over the | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
course of the past few years is worked out a very specific proposal. | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
It may not be the best one but it has at least been well thought out | :02:18. | :02:28. | |
It is much easier to have a debate when something detailed is put on | :02:28. | :02:35. | |
the table. We can say which bits we like and what we don't. If they put | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
something forward for discussion, it adds something. The difference | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
from the 1990s is the difference of the Unionist parties in Scotland | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
which has left this debate being dominated by voices from | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
Westminster who are behind the game and I'd using the wrong language. | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
They are using the language of negativity, of confrontation, that | :02:57. | :03:03. | |
will not, for a progressive Unionist position, do. We are | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
lacking strong, party political voices from Scotland who are taking | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
a broadly Unionist position but have a progressive view about how | :03:10. | :03:16. | |
it should evolve. It is just not there at the moment but it is down | :03:16. | :03:22. | |
to civil society, which is not as strong as it was in the 1990s. | :03:22. | :03:30. | |
oh, do you think it is up to civil society to do this? The aim must | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
put pressure on the Labour Party and Liberal Democrats to adopt a | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
more dynamic approach to this referendum and make sure the devo- | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
max option is there. He what the polls are telling us is that this | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
is the preferred option. Two-thirds of people support something in the | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
middle. They recognise the process is not working for England or | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
Scotland. Also, as a majority in the polls, they don't want to go | :03:56. | :04:02. | |
for independence. The middle option as the populist support. If this | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
middle option wins, who has mandated it? Who are the self- | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
selecting groups to have come up with the idea and how do you | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
enforce it at Westminster in negotiations there? As a number of | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
people have pointed out the power is already in place. If one wanted | :04:19. | :04:25. | |
to, to go down the route of devolution plus or devo-max which | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
the SNP government is putting forward as an alternative. Whoever | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
comes up with the alternative must be on the front for it by saying | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
this is our preferred option. The Scottish government cannot say it | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
is their preferred option. They must say it is the best option for | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
Scotland and what comes out of it forms the best relationship with | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
the UK. It would then be for the Scottish government, after the | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
referendum, whoever that is, to take it forward. They are not | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
legally bound, but mandated, clearly mandated by the Scottish | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
people to negotiate some form of enhanced devolution. If the | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
Scottish people chose Alex Salmond as the best person, that is their | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
choice. But it would be the Scottish Parliament and government | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
coming out of the Scottish Parliament to take it forward. | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
are almost out of time, but do you think there will be the enthusiasm | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
and commitment from people out there to engage with this for those | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
not in political parties, people who don't have those interests, is | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
there going to be the momentum? think people will be depressed and | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
worried if they think they will have a legally binding referendum | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
on independence only. Make your minds up and if you don't know you | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
are done with. I think people will be depressed and anxious if that is | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
the only option. Avoiding that outcome will motivate people to | :05:54. | :06:00. | |
become very engaged again. Thank you very much indeed, I have a | :06:00. | :06:06. | |
feeling we will be doing much more of this in the months ahead. Now | :06:06. | :06:13. | |
for the lunchtime news. Good afternoon, Michael Moore says he is | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
ready to negotiate with the First Minister over the timing of the | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
independence referendum. He says it should be down to the Scottish | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
people to decide the future of the country. It is important that we | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
get on and decide what we do here in Scotland. Creating a referendum | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
on the biggest decision we will take in our lives. In this country. | :06:34. | :06:41. | |
We must make sure it is legal, fair and decisive. At the end of the | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
process we will know exactly where it leads us. As part of the most | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
successful partnership of an Nations in history of going our own | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
way. A leading Scottish Conservative fundraiser has said he | :06:53. | :06:59. | |
is stepping down from his post. Sir Jack Harvey has raised around �60 | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
million, the Conservatives have paid tribute to the 65 year-old | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
contribution and said a new fund- raising team is being put in place. | :07:07. | :07:13. | |
The SNP says that his retirement is a blow for the Conservative | :07:13. | :07:19. | |
leadership. A flat was attended to by police last night. Officers | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
spend hours at the block of flats as they negotiated with a man there, | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
the 25 year-old is expected to appear in court tomorrow. Now let | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
us look at the weather prospects. us look at the weather prospects. | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
Good afternoon, the bloke behind me says it all. We will see some | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
thicker cloud towards the Outer Hebrides and extending to the | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
Shetlands. Some Shun signed two. Cold temperatures, no higher than | :07:45. | :07:54. | |
four Celsius, struggling to get to That is all for now, the next | :07:54. | :08:02. | |
bulletin is at 6:50pm this evening. Now, a reminder of the top news | :08:02. | :08:12. | |
:08:12. | :08:19. | ||
Well, I think we can all safely say the constitutional wranglings will | :08:19. | :08:27. | |
say centre-stage in the weeks ahead. And, I am joined now by the | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
broadcaster and Scottish political editor of the Daily Telegraph, in | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
the Edinburgh studio. Good afternoon to you both, going for | :08:35. | :08:42. | |
the cream of the crop in our inaugural programme. Quite right. | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
Lesley, let us start with what you think of the week which has gone. | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
Have any politicians covered themselves in glory. Possibly not. | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
A very polarising week but perhaps that was inevitable. Now people are | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
beginning to take stock. Interesting what he heard from | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
Michael Moore, it sounds like the date is now not the big one, and we | :09:04. | :09:10. | |
are now moving on to the second question issue. Also, whether | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
politicians are capable of being trusted. On the other hand, is it | :09:14. | :09:20. | |
up to the public, do we have to do it somehow? Questions will be | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
raised as to who is the legitimate one, in a legitimate position to | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
write questions on which the Scottish must vote. It strikes me | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
that Labour are missing from this. This is their policy and it is time | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
they stood up because again in Westminster will devo-max, if voted | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
for, ever get a lead its love potion. Look at the request of the | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
Scottish government had after they were elected in May. Has it been | :09:49. | :09:56. | |
devolved back to Scotland, no. These were not big ones, and they | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
have not move. We could be in the mire for decades if we don't have a | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
party that is absolutely wedded to something short of independence but | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
more than the Scotland Bill. That must be Labour, because they are | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
not in coalition with the Tories. Allen, do you think this devo-max | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
question is going to go away or not? Is that something which can be | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
negotiated? If not, what does it mean in practice? I am not sure you | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
are right about the timing. I don't think he has conceded anything. I | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
don't think there is any question that the deal breaker is the number | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
of questions. It will be one question as far as Westminster is | :10:39. | :10:46. | |
concerned and as far as I think the ultimate outcome is concerned. The | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
SNP conference from last October, SNP conference from last October, | :10:48. | :10:54. | |
SNP conference from last October, there was nothing like it. Lots of | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
nationalists think they can win on one question. They will want to go | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
for one question. Let's have a debate on devo-max but let's sort | :11:02. | :11:03. | |
debate on devo-max but let's sort debate on devo-max but let's sort | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
out the big one first. If Joyce McMillan is saying we must have the | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
devo-max question because they will not accept a defeat on the big | :11:11. | :11:17. | |
question, then we are playing a different ball game. To you have | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
concerns when we say voices must be heard in Scotland? We have spoken | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
about a bigger game, this intense political question in a different | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
sort of way. Have you got any concern about why this column's not | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
choosing to engage this time around? I hear people talking about | :11:36. | :11:37. | |
around? I hear people talking about around? I hear people talking about | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
is all the time. The groundswell has started already. I don't hear | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
people really using phrases like devo-max. Should we raise our own | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
taxes in Scotland. Do we believe we are capable of running ourselves on | :11:49. | :11:57. | |
our own income base and well. That is what lies behind devo-max. | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
who defines that? I think there is an issue. We can all have stabs at | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
the definition. Reforms: there is a good one, but that is what | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
political parties are for. They should ask that question to | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
themselves. If they don't step up to the mark and do this work, why | :12:14. | :12:21. | |
do we need them? If we look at the power-play behind this, we keep | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
hearing George Osborne's name. Everybody saying he is the | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
mastermind behind it. Do you have an inside track, what is going on | :12:28. | :12:35. | |
here? I don't have an inside track with Conservatives. With all of the | :12:35. | :12:41. | |
political parties! With some more than others, but that is for you to | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
decide! Michael Moore drew up the consultation paper, he drew it up | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
and will discuss it with an exam and if he wants to talk to him. | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
Last week he was saying that Michael Moore had a better attitude | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
then a George Osbourne and David Cameron, but now he says it does | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
not want to talk to Michael Moore just David Cameron. But, Alex | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
Salmond has been shifting on his ground all week. He will not tell | :13:06. | :13:13. | |
you about it, he has the Scottish Parliament issue. He did not tell | :13:13. | :13:20. | |
the Scottish Parliament, he told Sky, and the BBC and s TV. We | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
should not read too much into this, he cannot tell us because it does | :13:24. | :13:30. | |
not know. People keep talking about clarity, but at what point do we | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
get clarity? When I was asking about what the politicians were | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
doing and whether they were doing us a disservice. We were so caught | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
up in the mechanics we were not discussing wider issues. At what | :13:41. | :13:47. | |
point do we get clarity. What should be conceded at this stage? | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
If we are going for 2014, and we are, we should pace ourselves. | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
Looking to get the consultation document on Burns Night, nicely | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
timed, then we will have a better idea on where we are going. There | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
are big consequences for the rest of Britain. They are beginning to | :14:04. | :14:13. | |
think about it. How does the set-up work? How would you want to rejig | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
the United Kingdom if you were doing it now? Would you have a | :14:16. | :14:22. | |
House of Lords? There are some Poles out today which say the | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
majority of English would be quite happy, what do you think? To me, | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
that looks like repressed demand for an English parliament. You can | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
look so many ways that what are the beginning of stirrings in people | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
across the United Kingdom, but I don't think they are necessarily | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
just saying cheerio, they are saying they would like their own | :14:43. | :14:49. | |
parliament. We have only got a few seconds left, Sir Jack Harvey is | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
backing out of Tory fund-raising, is that very significant? Totally | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
irrelevant. He is a good guy, but it is irrelevant to the future of | :14:59. | :15:07. | |
Scotland. We are out of time. Let me ask though, given the opinions | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
coming from the south, the impact it would have, what would be an | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
appropriate role for voters in England and Wales and Northern | :15:15. | :15:23. | |
Ireland? It is entirely a matter for the people of Scotland, | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
commissars of Scotland. Let us get some clarity, Alex Salmond was | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
talking about an advisory referendum, that would mean a | :15:31. | :15:39. | |
second referendum, you cannot have one on the detail am one without. | :15:39. | :15:45. | |
But this is rubbish, you are employed to find these difficulties, | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
and these for negative points, in the bigger scheme of things we have | :15:48. | :15:58. | |
:15:58. | :15:58. |