26/02/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland

In his first major television interview since quitting the

Cabinet, Liam Fox on why George Osborne should depend on Tory

policies to grow the economy even if the Liberal Democrats do not

like it. And that he does want to return to government. That is the

Sunday interview. Could the Lords reform be the

unlikely issue that cracks the Coalition? A Lib Dem at Lord and a

Tory backbencher go head-to-head. On Sunday Politics Scotland, the

energy giant SSE says the constitutional uncertainty is a

risk factor which may infect -- affect future prospects.

Is any job better than no job? When will graduates get jobs are to

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1853 seconds

We are talking about learn -- a long-term fix. If you don't agree

with the Coalition agreement, and you don't, your own manifesto said

it was in favour. It was a democratic mandate. I couldn't

hand-pick someone and agree with them about everything. I don't

agree with every bit my party says either. When I was knocking on

doors for the general election, I did not come across someone who

said... Are they banging on the table and saying...? Are you saying

we must have a changed constituency? It is another part of

a democratic package falls --? have all been nominated by the

parties. They probably already failed in government. That is the

whole point of having proportional representation. We are in favour of

openness where the people can decide. Someone like Philip who is

known in Yorkshire would have a good chance of getting into the

Lords. He is already elected. that case, you will be it fighting

the election on the old boundaries. If the Tories do not deliver on

towards reform, you think the Lib Dems will oppose the boundary

changes? I think we will not be wanting to put that throw. A deal

is a deal. And that means your Coalition is fractured. I take the

debate on its merits rather than a petulant argument. You have been

going on about Europe! You can never get away from it. If Philip

and his friends persist with the is tactics, it will make it very

difficult. We're here to implement the Coalition agreement and stick

to it, but I'm afraid, we have to get on with it even if we don't

like it. The Conservatives have to do the same. The House of Commons

is so partisan, that is the complaint. I don't think it will

crack the Coalition, but he has just said that it could. The Lib

Dems have 8% of the opinion polls. If they want to run away from the

Coalition, we'll be happy to fight the general election. We have to

leave it there. I enjoyed that. It is 12:35pm. You are watching the

Good afternoon and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up

on the programme: This week we were trying, honestly,

not to use the r word - Rangers or the referendum - but then

Scotland's energy giant SSE, the country's second largest company,

said the uncertainty about the constitutional future created

certain risks and this would be a factor in deciding their future

35 % of Scottish Homes will be suffering from fuel poverty this

year. It is a daily struggle for some. It is costing about �9 a day

to heat the house. More if I put the panel heaters on in the bedroom.

It is a struggle. Many recent graduates are taking jobs way below

their skills level. They're off the unemployment register and earning

cash, but will based get stuck in jobs they did not want? The issue

that is important to remember about the unemployment situation, there

Over the last financial year the company will have spent almost �900

million in Scotland. It says its existing projects will go ahead as

planned but future projects may have to have a risk premium, the

cost of which will effect whether the investment goes ahead or not.

Joining me now in Dundee, the SNP's Stewart Hosie, and with me in the

studio, Labour's Tom Greatrex. Thank you very much for coming in.

The principal that we can all agree is that companies attach a

financial cost to risk so a risk premium has to be attached to an

investment sometimes. Yes or no? That is correct. What SSE are

saying is the development of their existing projects in Scotland will

continue. It does mean that the additional uncertainty represents

increased risk of which SSE will have no alternative but to take

into account in making final decisions on those projects while

that additional uncertainty remains. Here we have the present

uncertainty potentially undermining future investment. What they report

said in for is that they are not entering the constitutional debate.

Their headquarters are remaining in Perth. They have also said they

will not stop investing in Scotland, that is clear. As you just pointed

out, the existing investments of �900 of this financial year will

continue. They will take a commercial decision in the future.

It is hypothetical. It will see what, if any, premium may have to

be applied, but they are simply taking a look at what is happening.

The other big that they said in their report was that we are

looking at the common energy market across not just the UK, but the

whole of the British Isles. That was an issue they were concerned

about. The British Isles council agreed that that is important and

is -- that is expected to continue. A lot of the so-called risk they

might be talking about is a hypothetical and we will see if

there is actually a real premium ever applied in the future. We are

also talking about the risk of uncertainty about gone and's

position within Europe. Europe has such an influence on regulation and

the market. That is another level of risk. Do you accept that it is

legitimate for them to say, look at the uncertainty. We have to put a

price on this and that could affect future investments. They are

entitled to make the response they have made, but in relation to

Europe it is clear that when Scotland and England become

successful states in the EU, there will be no change to the EU

position whatsoever. Before we leave the element of uncertainty,

they are making the point also that if the -- if there is a yes vote

for independence, the uncertainty continues, but also they talk about

in the negotiations. No issue, including the electricity and gas

industry, would be looked at in isolation from the others. They are

saying that if there is a yes vote post referendum, the rest continue

its, whereas you may say that you while some divine what is happening

in the energy market, once you tight into wider negotiations that

risk and uncertainty remains. seem to be very focused on risk and

uncertainty. A Yes vote in the referendum will be extremely

certain indeed. Scotland would become an independent nation and

have its own government and they will have all the rights and

obligations and duties of the other normal independent countries. We

will move on not just in relation to energy and electricity, but also

the other matters that in normal Independent government would look

after. Tom, it is a matter of fact that risk exists for SSE in the

existing investments, for example a lack of clarity in the electricity

market. Also, SSE have already, because of government policy in the

south, had important project. For them, there are risks whatever they

do. That is a fact of commercial life. It was not because of a

change in policy, it was because it was found that it would not be

economic to continue with it. The UK government said it was not a

change in policy that drove that decision. What Stewart failed to

point out and what SSE pointed out in their contribution is that at

the moment, for renewable generation, there is a subsidy

which exists which is paid across the bills of every consumer in

Britain. In Scotland, we have less than 10 % of consumers. We have

more than 30 % of renewable obligation payments. That is a

great thing because of what that demonstrates is that where

electricity can be generated in Scotland, we will pay together. In

a separate Scotland, the question has not been answered as to what

happens in terms of the subsidy. That support is needed. It is

needed to generate the investment. Either the bills will go up, all

the subsidy will be less and the investment will not happen. Given

that Scotland has 25 % of Europe's offshore renewable capacity

potential, it is a strange question to ask but why would be not have

the money from the renewables obligation invested in the part of

the world which can best generate the renewable electricity? What

Stewart is missing here, and that he does not quite understand it, is

that that subsidy allows that Investment and Development to

happen. In a state where you have two separate countries, the rest of

the UK it will not be paying that subsidy for that development in

Scotland. If Scotland is paying for a... That is a point that has been

raised. There will be a financial shortfall in terms of renewables.

How will that be met if all the money coming out of the South no

longer comes to Scotland? I'm and a loss to understand why money for

renewable Investment would not be invested in an area of which has a

huge amount of renewable potential. You cannot invest money in

renewables where there are no renewables. You are saying that the

factor of energy supply and demand would say that you have to come

into Scotland if you want to do this sensibly. Let me ask you, Tom,

as well about the increase cross- border in -- integration. British

Irish councils have said this is something they wish to develop.

That is the direction of travel. It would be counter-productive for

south of the border not to do that. That has long been the direction of

travel. There will be a lot of investment needed to make that

happen. But we have a single energy market now. We have a need for

upgrading infrastructure as well as new plants. That happens on a UK-

wide basis. We all pay for that in our bills. That is either through

the levy or through other investments through the charge is

that the company made. That works because we have a bigger energy

market, 27 million households about pay that across Britain. If in a

separate Scotland, how would that work? That is a question that the

SNP have been unable to answer and that is key to the uncertainty that

SSE are concerned about. The grid will be maintained. There is a

common electricity market, it is not just in the island of Britain,

it is across the entire British Isles. The point that the British

Irish Council want this is important. A single common market

in energy across the islands is something that we have, and

something we intend to keep. When I hear Tom's comments, it is the

worst scaremongering. The lights will not go out, the power grids

will not be torn down, there will still be a pan British island's

electricity market. Still it should ask himself why would they want to

invest in Scotland? Two reasons: Firstly because of the potential

for renewables in Scotland, and second because the support regime

that exists and is paid for through Britain making sure that the

investments happened. Renewable energy is capital intensive, you

need that money up front. The SNP have not answered how they would do

that in separate Scotland. We have to leave it there, thank you.

Stewart, you are going to stay with us for your views on other issues

we are looking at this morning. Going off at a tangent now in the

energy issue, Donald Trump has told this programme he would be honoured

to give evidence to a Scottish parliament energy committee if

invited. He's accused the First Minister of being hell bent on

destroying Scotland coastline with offshore turbines. There are plans

for 11 in the sea off the Menie estate where Mr Trump has built a

golf course, a situation he describes as a personal betrayal.

Court action he says could delay the project for years.

I have been told by our attorney's and lawyer's that we can bring a

very large lawsuit and probably win it based on the harm that these

horrible things would do to Scotland. I had been told we have a

very good law suit and we can delay it for years to come. I feel

betrayed because obviously all you have to do is check the newspapers

and I think the word in terms of how I feel is betrayed, because he

would have thought this would happen? I had a very good

relationship with Alex Salmond and I like him, but I cannot let

Stewart Hosie, just in response to a couple of these things. Do you

think this legal threat has any traction at all? I have absolutely

no idea. I would probably doubt it, given that there is no decision

made on the deployment facility of the Menie Estate. That decision

will be taken into cause. I am sure it will be taken properly. The key

thing to remember here is that this facility is a test facility. It is

11 turbines, I think about three- and-a-half kilometres off the coast.

It is not a full-scale wind turbine array, but a relatively small test

facility. But what you think about Donald Trump's general tone. There

was concern about the lack of respect shown to the office of the

First Minister in some of his comments. I am sure he will say the

things that he wants to say. The original Trump development went

through the planning process and the Scottish Parliament committee

agreed that have been done properly. There will now be a test the city

offshore. Again, the prices will be followed her properly. If Donald

Trump is not happy, I am sure he will do whatever he feels is

necessary but so long as the planning process let -- prisoners

is done absolutely scrupulously, as I am sure it will become I'm not

sure where Mr Trump will go with it. Let's look at the new Scottish Sun

on Sunday. It is at today. It says it has a world exclusive, day of

destiny, Saturday the ANC of October 2014 they have revealed as

the day for Scotland's historic independence vote. Is that the

date? It is certainly a possibility. 18th October is certainly the

autumn of 2014. It is a Saturday and not a Thursday and that is one

of the areas the Scottish Government is consulting on. But

the consultation has not finished and it would be wrong of anyone to

prejudge the date for that might be concluded from the consultation.

Would it be wrong of any of the SNP Government to have this announced

in our Rupert Murdoch's papers before they told parliament the

formal date? I had a quick look at it this morning and they cannot

actually find a ministerial great. I am not quite sure where they have

got the story from. But I am asking you about the principle. Just in

principle. For to tell a newspaper rather than Parliament. I am all in

favour of important announcements being made to Parliament, by the

Scottish Parliament or Westminster, to parliamentarians before they are

leaked. Tom Greatrex, what you think? I wonder if this came out of

a conversation Alex Salmond and Rupert Murdoch had last week. But

when this happens, it will be a matter for everyone who happens --

he lives in Scotland. I think we should get on and get this sorted

out so we have the referendum as soon as possible.

Growing numbers of people are worried they cannot afford their

next fuel bill. One in two says it will put a strain on their finances

this year, according to Citizens Advice Scotland. The Government's

own figures show 35 % of households are in fuel poverty, which is when

you spend more than 10% of your disposable income on energy costs.

In at the Western Isles it is This is the bathroom. We have done

about nine coats of paint and it is a bathroom paint and it is still

coming through. This is the mould on the back of the wardrobe after

about a year. Does the smell. It is kind of embarrassing. You can smell

it off his close. Their breathing, their skin. It is costing about �9

a day to heat the house and more if I put the panel heaters on in the

bedroom. I cannot really take my kids out because I cannot afford to.

Stacey and her family live in rural East Lothian and spend around 40%

of their total income on fuel. Today she is being shown how to use

her heating system more effectively to help her cut down her bail.

situations like this where it is an off gas area, there is any electric

heating in this property, it can be a challenge to find the balance

between the warm home and high bills. Scottish Power is the only

electricity provider in the area so Stacey is unable to shop around for

another supplier. Just before Christmas, the six-speed energy

providers in Scotland increased their prices by about 20%.

Government, Ofgem and the Scottish Government will need to challenge

the six big energy companies to get a better deal for customers.

Airdrie, the community has put on a fuel poverty road show to provide

advice to locals. I am quite worried about it. I have been

turning way he does down, turning my thermostat down. It is the same

fuel, so why can't they give the same price? To his by spending two

Haugen thief the �1,000 on a school poverty and the Scottish Government

is struggling to reach its target of eradicating fuel poverty in the

next few years. -- a quarter of a billion pounds. If we can

incentivise and health and people to improve their standards of

insulation in the Rhone homes... But clearly if the prices keep

getting jacked up by a these amounts it becomes a moving target.

Your hands were blue. There was no feeling in your feet. And the

breath that was coming out of your mouth. It was just like steam.

Until a few weeks ago Margaret's house was not connected to gas. She

did not just the offers from the energy companies and turned to the

Government for help. I have been trying for over two years all the

different Government schemes. It is just a case of, we have not got

enough funds available. In a new report, the Scottish Parliament's

Economy Committee is a -- considering one stop approached to

tackle fuel poverty. There is a great deal of confusion about who

might be eligible for these schemes and who might be eligible. Margaret

has now received a grant from one of the big energy companies and has

had her central heating installed. For Stacey and her family, living

in an old house in a rural area with no access to gas gives her

little choice but to keep turning up the heat.

With me now, Trisha McAuley, the deputy director of Consumer Focus

Scotland and the co-convener of the Scottish Greens, Patrick Harvie. In

one of their reports you said energy companies have money to

spend but they are not finding people to spend it on. Is that

still the case? Yes, there are a lot of people throughout Scotland

are eligible for money from social programmes, environmental

programmes, and people particularly who are very fuel poor and the

energy company are saying they are having trouble finding these people.

So there is a lot more they can do to reach out to put it ages is

worked together we could do a lot more to help people. So in the

South where the Government says it is up to be able to get in touch,

he is that the rank and disease? Yes. People do not just the

companies so they are not willing to take the risk. We definitely

believe the energy companies should not be sitting back at going out

there to find people, being much more active. Patrick, a free repair

the political situation, -- if we look at the political situation,

the Government in Scotland is saying that the fuel poverty budget

will rise by 16 % next year followed by a force of 3% in 2014-

2015. But it also has a warm homes fund. Using everything that can be

done is being done? Now, not at all. The budget will go up a bit this

year but that is only reversing part of last year's cut and so even

after that increase we will be spending less on fuel poverty and

energy efficiency than we were a few years ago. I was looking back

yesterday after I gutters call to invite me on to the programme at

the discretion in the Scottish Parliament way back ten years ago

in the first session when the target date to eradicate fuel

poverty was set and even then people were saying, 15 years, that

is a really challenging timescale. 13 % of households in fuel poverty.

Where they cause of a million households. Now here we are with

four years to go before the target date is reached and we have

something like 30% of households in fuel poverty. The best part of a

million. We have less than four years to go before we reach that

date and will further away from the target by far than we were when the

target was set in 2002. So I understand why some of the measures

that were put forward were put forward but we are still at this

point of having a proliferation of different schemes and did all

adding up to a pot that is dramatically less than we need to

be spending. When we look at how money is raised for this and the

social tariff which goes on to bills, is it time we said that the

social tariff is now starting to cost people who cannot afford to

pay and let's look at other ways of raising cash for this. What do you

think about alternative ways of raising money? The DIS very

difficult. The Government, the Scottish Government, has to

definitely find more money and lever in funds from the private

sector and from energy companies. They called all do a lot more. But

the one thing that the Government should be able to do is use it as a

preventive spend so for example, there is no strategic influence

within the Scottish Government to say, well, we have not got a lot of

money, let next -- let's make best use of it and integrate funding for

fuel poverty into our health budgets, into existing funding

streams in local government, social work departments as well. Patrick,

what you think about the current ways of raising money, leading on

from what Trisha it said. Do you think that this tariff is

necessarily the only way we should be looking at helping people who

cannot afford to pay. He it is not the only way to do it. On one level

I find it frustrating that people think the level of public funding

is a problem, there is no problem putting billions of pounds into

building projects. I would like to see councils in Scotland setting up

their own energy companies, publicly owned, not just to invest

in renewables, and they can do that by borrowing, which they end pay

back from the Revenue that renewable energy generates for them,

but also by bulk-buying the electricity market. That might be

in social housing projects and housing associations. Ultimately,

it could be much more widespread because what is happening to the

electricity market is about encouraging small new retailers to

come on. Local councils could be doing that. Let's look to some of

the northern European nations that Alex Salmond constantly compares to

an look at what they are already doing. We can empower local

Government to do this even now with existing powers we have in Scotland.

There is no reason at all we should not start doing that now. Thank you.

Thousands of our brightest young men and women are working in jobs

are below their abilities. The experiences of the so-called under-

employed have been reviewed by Strathclyde University. Student

leaders warned that this group may lose out even in an economic upturn,

if employers prefer a more recent graduates, so are we creating a

lost generation? For our newest crop of graduates,

the old assumptions are unreliable. A degree no longer guarantees a job,

far less the one they had hoped for, and increasing numbers are under-

employed, in other words, in drops significantly below their skills at.

It has been three years since I graduated and I expected to work

jobs I did not want to do for a while before finding a job that was

part of a career but the wait has been longer than I expected.

Everybody my own age is working in offices tamping or answering

A lot of employers are looking to see that candidates are prepared to

roll their sleeves up and do what ever is required in order to earn

money. Eilat of us like to see candidates going out and putting a

chef been, that is a very good thing to do. But opinions are

divided on this. University macro - - the Strathclyde University have

said that after graduating, a third of graduates will not be using

skills that they have learned. Three years later, 20 % of them

will be in the same position. is a big impact on those people who

have come through university in terms of their personal experiences,

they are not getting the most from their degree. We are worried about

the knock-on impact that has on those who are taking jobs away from

people who are otherwise -- would otherwise be taking them. There is

a real knock-on effect on people who do not have such high

qualifications. With every graduation ceremony, the numbers

are stacking up. Been employed, or finding jobs, they are stacking up

on each other. It depends on how long beak stacking on will go on

for. What we require to clear this pile of graduates, it is going to

be a high rate of economic growth. I think it would be dishonest to

say that this is something I believe is going to happen soon.

According to the research, students with post grad qualifications their

best in the market, but that is out for many.

With me is the new Minister for Youth Employment, the MSP Angela

Constance. Let's pick up that first point

about postgraduate funding. Your government has an emphasis on that

16 to 19-year-olds. Do you think you should look at putting funding

into post grad work because that is where the upfront fees are? It is

very important to know whether his government does prioritise 16 to

19-year-olds. One of the important points but was published a few

weeks ago was that we do recognise that all -- not all young people

are the same. Graduates do indeed have particular needs. The

government is focused on economic recovery before it is essential

that we do get graduates into graduate level employment otherwise

we will see displacement in the labour market. But I don't think

anyone would find anything contentious in that, that is a

given. We need jobs in order to have... What do you practically do

about things up to help them in the interim and of those jobs become

available? Do you have a responsibility there, or should be

graduates be on their own? We do have a responsibility to ensure

that the young people get the best start to their working lives, that

they get the right start in the first rung of the career ladder. In

terms of supporting postgraduates, is this government that has access

to loans and grants. Nonetheless the picture is mixed. Young

Scottish graduates have actually -- are actually doing well to hold

their own despite the very difficult economic climate. For

example, graduates from Scottish universities are far less likely to

be unemployment -- unemployed with it a year of leaving lunar boasted.

The employment rate for young graduates between the ages of 20

and 24 is 4% higher than the UK figure. Starting salaries is higher

in Scotland as well. -- far higher. Two-thirds of graduates in

employment are in graduate jobs. That figure is not currently at the

pre-recession levels, but it is something we are focused on. We do

need to get graduates into graduate level jobs. This is great for the

graduates who got the jobs, but I am asking what the sake today who -

- to someone who did a degree, worked very hard and has had three,

four or five years in a job way below their skills level? It must

be discouraging for them, people have done everything expected of

them. As a government, we need to make sure that our young people

remain encouraged and focused. But I think a positive destination

figures for Scottish graduates are very encouraging. Again, highest in

the UK, so in terms of... Nearly 89 % of Scots graduates continue their

studies, go into work or do a combination. But do you see a

particular value in postgraduate studies, especially at a time of

economic downturn? You could argue it is cheaper. It has a value

because you are building your skills and are used for to the

economy when it picks up. Do you see his argument about the value of

postgraduate study -- study? Absolutely. The longer young people

continue their education, it does increase their long-term

employability. But what is also crucial is that the university

sector is already engaged with the key employers and that sort of work

has to continue. It is far more common these days for

professionally accredited teaching universities... The relevance of

qualifications to the world of work is improving, I believe. Only last

week there was an employer summit for all universities in Scotland

where they met and that is very much about university sector doing

their bit. It is stepping up to the plate to ensure that we get back to

a rising youth unemployment. But if we stick with this and the

employment issue because we are looking at that, is it your view

that governments do not create jobs because we have heard from quite a

lot of young students, that they won the economic circumstances

created in which businesses can create jobs? Is there an

improvement -- river improvement there? There is always room for

improvement. Governments do not directly create jobs. It would not

be a surprise to you for me to say the Scottish government...

Governments cannot do things to engage with employers and encourage

and even in centre vice with the employment of young people. Thank

you indeed. We have to leave it there.

Following on from the minister there, we can now hear from the

Scottish Conservative, Murdo Fraser, who is in our Dundee studio.

Thank you for coming in. We are getting a lot of high value at a

view today! Let me ask you about this issue of the stacking up of

graduates and the possibility of a lost generation. The thing that is

a real prospect? It is a serious issue. We have a major problem with

youth unemployment. The statistics show that it is the area of the

economy where there is the most concern. In terms of what God --

the government can do, a number of things need to happen in the

university sector itself. Many employers will say they have a

challenge with some graduates, they do not have the soft skills that

employers are looking for. There is much more that can be done in terms

of improving their employability. How are soft skills defined? Sorry

to interrupt. For example, how to fit in in a working environment,

turning up on time, had to present yourself in the workplace, how to

get on with your workmates. That is why work placements and internships

are so important. A lot of good work is going on in our

universities in terms of equipping students particularly towards the

end of their courses in terms of making that transition from

education to employment much more seamless. I think that sort of

thing but many still encourage. In terms of direct government policy,

a lot of graduates do a generalist degree like an arts and they might

want to move into a more specialist field, going back to a further

education college to do a short course, and what we have seen in

the government budget that has been passed by Parliament is a cut of

more than �50 million in the budget of our further education colleges.

That is completely short-sighted in the current climate where you have

got many graduates desperate to get these additional skills to get them

into the workplace. Is it your argument that any job is better

than no job even if it is way below your skills level was mad in the

short term, yes. It was very interesting in the clip you showed

with recruitment consultants, that is exactly the point they were

making. If you are an employer, the last thing you want is to receive a

c been formed someone who has been out of work since they graduated.

You would rather have is a new graduate who has had to take in the

short term a job below their expectations at a lower pay grade,

perhaps even a part-time job, but that is better than not having any

employment at all. And we are also joined now by the

Scottish Labour Education spokesperson, Hugh Henry MSP, and

Laurie Russell, the Chief Executive of the WiseGroup, an organisation

which specialises in getting unemployed people back into work.

This argument, take any job if you are a graduate, when we hear from

Strathclyde there is some evidence that students can get trapped in

jobs and there is a long term there with to the outcome, what would you

say? -- long-term negative. There are implications for people further

down the change. A lot of people come out of school without

qualifications and we are working with them. They are looking for

entry-level jobs so if graduates take those jobs, it makes it much

more difficult for other people to get into work. What is the answer

then? I think the answer is that if you go to revitalise the Scottish

economy, we need graduates and we need them working in the jobs they

are trained for. A lot of it comes down to pretty much more effort

into getting graduates to set up their own businesses and to work

together to set up their own businesses and to do more about

entrepreneurship at further education and higher education

levels. I know some is done, but more effort can go into that.

point is the government cannot create jobs. Labour have said they

have created jobs, but governments do not create jobs, do they?

Governments can work with employers to help create the right

environment. The problem is that we need to grow the economy. It is not

enough just to put people into short-term courses and projects. We

need a long-term future for them. We are of a generation that when we

came out of university, it was a matter of choosing what you wanted

to do, not been desperate to take what was on offer. There are things

the government can do to work with the private sector to help young

people flourish in an entrepreneurial way. There was a

mention of incentives. Could you develop that? It could be, but you

need to remember there is a direct consequence of what the Scottish

government is doing. There are graduates working and displacing

others, in jobs that they are over- qualified for. Alex Salmond that

teaching numbers are out 54,000. Over the last few years, teaching

numbers have been at 3,000. People cannot get jobs in these fields.

Microbiologists are working in pharmacies, youngsters are working

in fast food restaurants. We are displacing people across the market

so we need to create the jobs. We can also build on the Scottish

Enterprise Scheme of talent and helping for a short term goal.

of the students week spoke to said they felt there was a status

attitude and perception that had to be challenged, and that was that

unless you went to university it somehow what you were doing a... It

was the attitude of middle-class families. The students would have

been better going into practical training. Do we need a big social

shift in attitude about what people would be best done in? We probably

do. We probably need to shifter by what we mean by jobs. I think any

of us could go hour -- around our constituencies and do a lot through

projects, environmental projects, communities. We were talking about

developing our sports centre earlier. If you have a project like

that, if you can work with the employers and construction

companies and the funders to make sure that we are always building an

opportunity for training for young people to get a chance in those

projects, there are different ways that we can find jobs in the

existing infrastructure. I think it is about a cultural change, about

what we mean by jobs. But also you are right in some communities and

families, there is a thing about getting a qualification. Let's

remember that further education and higher education people are paid to

Murdo Fraser, do you think we need to be quite careful about how we

assess the value of apprenticeships? And I am also

thinking particularly of the work- experience programme that the

coalition Government has put in place in the South which some

employers are now saying they do not want anything to do with an

campaigners are saying it is slave labour. Do we have to be careful

about what is being and is actually of value to the young people taking

part? Bear has been a vicious campaign run by far left elements

to try to discredit this. But a lot of major companies have withdrawn

from it because they agree. They have been scared off. The important

statistic to know from the scheme Dan SATs he is that half of those

that entered the scheme will end up in permanent employment. So this is

delivering for 50% of those involved a permanent job by the end

of it. I think that is an extremely worthwhile initiative for people

who otherwise might be facing many more years of unemployment.

work experience worth anything if you do not get a job at the end of

it? They can be good quality work experience programmes that help

young people, give MAC the, give them a reference and give them

skills. What I think people are concerned about is that it is not a

good quality scheme and it seems to be replacing full-time labour.

thank you. Another of our series looking ahead

to the key themes in the council elections. A few weeks ago we look

at how Labour and the SNP was set to fight a battle for CRASBO but

this week, different protagonists. The Conservatives and the Liberal

Democrats have been in collision in the Borders for five years. How can

they work together now and fight against each other for votes in a

In the Borders, there is much to commemorate the great battles of

But in the council now traditional adversaries have learnt to become

colleagues. As with most councils, no one party has an overall

majority and here, that has led to a situation that is almost

Westminster in miniature, the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats

In the council chamber, things are finely balanced between three

coalition partners. 12 Conservatives and 10 Liberal

Democrats are joined by three independent councillors. They are

very well deserved... Coalition was nothing new five years ago but what

was new was the way the coalition came together. Until 2007, we had

been independent and conservative. We have formed the administration

of the council. In 2007, most of the independents were washed away,

so more Liberals came in and a few more Conservatives. So we thought

the pragmatic and right thing to do was to join up. They year or two

after the election we got together to compare manifestos, to see if

there was any common ground. Basically, within a couple of days,

with followed up with a draft programme of work of what we would

like to do in the next five years. We Conservatives do like to be

pragmatic and practical and we like to do things we can actually do.

The tough bit was agreeing with the others, particularly the Liberals,

on what was do-able, because we do not like to say we are going to do

a thing and then not do it. Once that was done, we have had a couple

of spats but on the whole it has been pretty good. There was a point

about 18 months ago when the Scottish Liberal Democrats, my grip,

was within that of leading the commission. We considered that the

programme of work we focus on with our constituents is the most

important thing. Commissions always involve compromise and supporters

of the party may feel they class is either half-full or half-empty but

can the council elections, how well each of the two big parties in the

coalition here manage to make distinct appeals to the local

voters? We have brought rigorous financial management and we have

simply got to think ahead. We have not just fought for this period of

office. We have thought ahead. We have actually got capital, a

financial plans going forward five years. We can only relate to the

public in terms of the issues as we see them and the public are telling

us. Principally, I would say that is economic development. However

the numbers stack up after the election, it is unlike the one

party alone will be able to spin its own Web. Labour have no

councillors here just now but the SNP and independence will be

fighting hard. And both coalition partners will be competing for

every vote. But also hoping it will not be able to live moment

Jamie will be back with another piece on the council elections in a

few weeks but now, the headlines. Good afternoon. It has been

reported that the Scottish Government's preferred date for a

referendum on independence is Saturday 18th October 2014. The

claim is made in the first edition of the Scottish Sun to be published

on a sunbed. Speaking to Sunday Politics: Earlier, Stewart Hosie

said the date is being considered. It is certainly a possibility. 18th

October is certainly in the autumn of 2014. It is a Saturday and not a

Thursday and that is one of the areas that the Scottish Parliament

is consulting on. Talks are continuing for the future

of two emergency debates covering Scottish waters. They are currently

operating on a temporary basis for the Maritime and Coastguard Agency.

They were due to be withdrawn last year to save money.

Labour Party members in Falkirk will meet this evening for the

first time since their MP was charged with three counts of common

assault. Eric Joyce was arrested following an incident in the House

of Commons bar last week. Mr Joyce will not attend, because he is

currently suspended from the party. Rugby and Scotland face a tough

encounter against France in Six Nations at Murrayfield this

afternoon. They are still looking for a victory in this year's

Championship, despite decent performances against England and

Wales, they lost their two opening games.

We have a lot of cloud today, particularly for western Scotland

where it will be quite a misty and murky afternoon with outbreaks of

patchy rain, turning heavy for a time. Across central and eastern

parts it will be brighter. In the North East, we will see our top

temperature today of 12 Celsius. More typically nine or ten. So very

much on the wild side for this time More from the newsroom at 6:10pm

this evening. In a moment we will be discussing

the bigger events coming up this week at Holyrood. First, let's take

a look back at The Week In 60 A tweeting Rupert Murdoch suggests

he supports independence for Scotland. He's tweet...

Rangers' tax debt continues to rise and financial documents have been

provided to Strathclyde Police. hope that their way will be found

forward to allow it ranges to meet their obligations to the taxpayer.

The Falkirk Labour MP Eric Joyce has been charged with assault

following an incident at a bar in the House of Commons, and suspended

from the Labour Party. The Royal Bank of Scotland has

reported a pre-tax loss that is almost double the last it made in

2010. Big losses, in a strange way, horror sign of success. It is a

sign we're taking the medicine at RBS needs.

A documentary showing Billy Connolly on tour in Northern

Ireland at the height of the violence in 1975 has been screened

at the Glasgow Film Festival this weekend.

Spring conference time is fast approaching with both Scottish

Labour and the Liberal Democrats holding theirs next week.

And with me to look ahead we have the political commentator and

author David Torrance and the editor of Holyrood Magazine in our

Edinburgh studio. Before we go on to the conference season, what you

make of the day of destiny prediction in the Scottish Sun?

is a good scoop for a brand new Sunday newspaper. Of course the

there are cabinets. The Scottish Government source says it is a date

they are lining up, so it is just a possibility. It would not be on the

front page go unless they have had a pretty firm steer from that

source. Are you putting it in your diary, Mandy Rhodes? I made a

decision this morning not to bite the newspaper at and I have been

advising the Scottish Government for the same reasons that perhaps

they should not have given any exclusive to the paper. But we will

see. But is it appropriate, it is accurate, and not just a best guess,

is it appropriate that this is given to renew his paper, which

happens to be owned by Rupert Murdoch, rather than being told to

Parliament? No, my reasons for not supporting the paper is that we

seem to have forgotten quickly when the News of the World was faulty.

Secondly, hundreds of journalists and other people lost their jobs.

And there is an ongoing police investigation and the Leveson

Inquiry. Mike view is that this is Mr Murdoch putting two fingers up

at our sensibilities and intellect and I feel sad that the SNP

Government felt they could first welcome his tweeting about

supporting the SNP stands but also give him an exclusive. David, we

have before Scotland meeting on Tuesday pensively Scotland meeting

in Glasgow on Thursday. Everyone is talking about Devo Max,

Independence Lite, independence, what you'd think will actually come

out of what is coming this week? For all when you think we may get

clarity in the different propositions, who is putting them

forward and who they imagine will be able to enforce them if they are

adopted? What we have here is a twin-track process. The Siddick

Scotland exercise is geared towards, or the Scottish Government hopes it

is geared towards Devo Max, which the Unionist Party considered to be

independence by another name. The Ivo Plus option which I think is

the more significant of the two he is quite fully developed. Reform

Scotland have already set out precisely what they mean by Bath

and they are now ready for a cross- party exercise to lend it more

credibility. But importantly, I think that is the direction of

travel, devolution plans, of the opposition parties. Mandy, we know

that we have the spring conferences for Scottish Labour and the Lib

Dems as welcoming up. What do you think will be the messages that

have to come out, first of all, say, from Labour? For the onus is on

Labour to start meeting the opposition fightback around the

independence referendum. What I am saying in my column tomorrow is

that I think the leader has adopted it to stand up and paint a picture

of the vision they have fought Scotland. They have a lot to say

about what they don't want about independence but we still have no

clarity about what they would have. Their leader's position is probably

not very far from the rest of Scotland. She is not an arts

unionist, she wants more powers and she needs to articulate that.

that has not happened with enough clarity? No, people are left

wondering what is going to happen and even with devolution plus and

the launch this week of that, as David says, Reform Scotland have

beefed out their own proposals, been around for more than a year.

Why haven't the opposition parties got behind that by now? For their

bosses offer last week from Willie Rennie to say if Ming Campbell is

looking at all is, why don't you see what we can come Upwood and we

can look at that constructively? Do you think it's likely that the

other opposition parties would say, yes, banks, we would love to do

that. I interviewed Menzies Campbell and Johann Lamont are to

discuss this. They have started to flesh out what they will do as a

joint effort in the fight back against independence. So that is

happening. We just needed you the details. Usage as there is a joint

effort. The individual parties, and Renault are going to have to appeal

to their own bases if they are going to turn out a no to

independence? Yes, and what you will see in the weeks ahead with

the party conferences is each party doing precisely that, setting out

their constitutional pitch, or is the direction of travel and how

they propose to bite the no campaign, an umbrella campaign will

follow thereafter. I also understand that Labour are working

towards it articulating their constitutional vision towards the

end of this year, in the autumn. That is the risk that if people do

not seem to... Obviously they need time to formulate what they're

going to say. Is there any sense that these other parties are being

cracked along, perhaps not the Lib Dems, dropped into a situation that

their heart and soul is not really in? Will that be a problem for

them? To an extent, DS. The Lib Dems have a consistent ideological

manifesto of what they want. Be other two parties to some extent

feel forced to say and do something. Although there are sections of

Labour and the Conservatives who genuinely believe in more powers,

others, such as Alistair Darling, feel compelled to offer something

because they feel politically they have no choice. Mandy, juicing

there will be no single leader for the Senate Independent's campaign?

-- do you think? The problem will not be but there has to be.