11/11/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland

At more link will stop welcome to it some the Olympics. Up our top

story today - the BBC is leaderless and in turmoil. After George

Entwistle resigns, calls for Lord Patten to resign as well all

because of the Newsnight report. How does the BBC restore trust

following what has been described as shoddy journalism. We will hear

from Harriet Harman and David Mellor.

Britain fell silent at 11am today to remember the war dead. And

coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: Pay Day loans and those

astronomical interest rates. The Consumer Affairs Minister goes head

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1936 seconds

to head with the trade body who We are already the second-largest

donor's of humanitarian aid to the Syrian opposition. We have plans to

increase that further up the situation requires it. Sorry, we

are running out of time and I want to get on to Trident. What

consideration have you given to scrapping Trident or not renewing

it? We conducted a review and decided that Britain would be --

would remain committed. The missiles have many decades of life

left in them and the only question remaining is about replacing the

submarines which carry them. We need to be investing now it in

design and development work in order to be able to replace them in

time for that date for also up as Nick Clegg on side for this? We

have a programme where we will make the investment programme for

submarines after the next election, but in order to be able to make

that decision and 2016 we have to be able to invest in design work

and engineering work right now. That is what I was announcing.

Let's see what a former Conservative Secretary of State

With the greatest respect to Michael Portillo, he has been out

of government and out of the Ministry of Defence for a very long

time and does not have access to the information that would allow

him to make that judgment on a sound base is also up there is as

we speak at least one a Royal Navy submarine armed with Trident

missiles somewhere in the world. What exactly is it protecting us

against? It is the ultimate guarantor of our sovereignty and

independence. Protecting us from whom? I am not going to speculate

on which countries attacking us but Mac we could not use the Trident

missiles that there was a dirty bomb terror attack which is more

likely. If we were to build this new generation of submarine

missiles, we are talking about a capability which has a life of 50

or 60 years from now.I cannot know which countries could have nuclear

weapons over that period. If Iran goes nuclear, it could provoke an

arms race in the Middle East for sup for the avoidance of doubt,

you're for Trident to be renewed? That is the most efficient way to

maintain a continuous nuclear deterrent. You're watching Sunday

politics. Good afternoon and welcome to

Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme: New figures

indicate the majority of people taking out high interest, pay-day

loans are in employment and using the money to pay for essentials

like heating and rent. With interest rates often in the 1,000%

bracket, it's a high price to pay for a small loan. When we met them,

they were thousands of pounds in debt and had taken on a loan of

�200. That is typical for sup can we quarantee the referendum

question will be easy to understand and unambiguous? We ask the

Electoral Commissioner for Scotland. Time is crucial and the decisions

are complex. How soon is too soon, to remove a vulnerable child from

their family home? And is the adoption process for

prospective parents taking too long?

One more payday to go before Christmas and there's concern more

people are getting into cycles of debt with payday loans - short term,

unsecured amounts borrowed at a high rate of interest whether you

get a wage or not. Citizens Advice Scotland have given us some interim

figures for a new report which suggests the vast majority of

people they see with payday loan problems are in work. Backed up by

other research, the claim is that people are using them for

essentials, not luxuries. Andrew Kerr reports.

People used pawnbrokers and the past but now it is pay-day loans

stores which have mushroomed other high streets. Credit cards and

banks are less likely to offer money to people on low income so

the filling the gap for people who cannot make ends meet. Citizens'

Advice Scotland say at least 15% of their clients have paid a own

problems. 76% of men were in work and new research has suggested that

38 per cent of pay-day loans are used for essentials. People are

getting these loans to pay their heating bills all it is not just

for luxuries. These companies charge a high interest rates.

some US states, the annual percentage rate of this kind of

loan has been capped and there are calls for this to happen in the UK.

This branch offers 1410 per set. The firms also have a high presence

online. This company can offer me �250 in 24 minutes with an APR of

4214 per cent. The problem comes when people miss a payment. One

such family turn to their MSP for help. When we met them, at the

worth thousands of pounds in debt having taken on a loan of �200.

That is typical. One of the things I reckon we have to try to do is

offset these company is. suggestion is that more access to

ethical credit unions with lower rates of interest would help.

Labour will would like more of these to be established although

point out there is a place for pay- day loans was up the government is

trying to do what they can with the power they have. The Scottish

government have powers in a variety of ways which they can use to make

it more difficult for pay-day known companies to operate in Scotland.

That would include limiting the advertising budget and a new

bankruptcy bill to help debtor's. The Scottish government say they

are already doing all they can with the powers they have. We had been

very successful marketing campaign on television encouraging people to

use debt arrangements schemes. That is the correct route for a great

many people who will be watching this interview and be worried, very

worried indeed about paying their bills. For some people, pay-day

loans can be handy close-up how did it work for you? I used it just the

once? It was OK. The industry appears to be cleaning up its act

with the new customer charter. More regulation could be around the

corner with the Office of Fair Trading reporting back soon or

reports some lenders are taking advantage of people we have

financial problems. Just before we came on air, I was joined by the

Liberal Democrat MP Jo Swinson, the UK Government's Consumer Affairs

Minister, and from our Bristol studio, Russell Hamblin-Boone. He's

the Chief Executive of the Consumer Finance Association, the trade body

that represents 70% of the payday loan market. I began by asking Jo

Swinson if there was any place for pay day loans?

Yes, and I think as we saw from the customer at the end of the film, it

can be handy for some people. There can suddenly be a big expense

before up eulogise and this can be one way that people can deal with

it. What we have seen from the banking sector over the last few

years has also had an impact on the pay the loan sector. For some

people, this can be not a problem at all. Equally, for some, this can

create a huge problem, particularly where they are being used not for

one-off expenses but to pay for the essentials as part our overall

budgeting tool. That can be unsustainable. How can you justify

giving loans to people whose financial position is

unsustainable? How can you justify these interest rates at over 1000

per cent? Be very small number of people are actually in financial

difficulty. Around 6% of pay-day known customers get into financial

difficulty and when they do, we do all we can to get them out of that

situation. We give them better advice and freeze the interest and

fees on their loans. On top of that, in terms of a PR, it does not give

a true representation of what the cost is. It is a bit like me going

into the car rental shop and being told it for cost me �15,000 a year.

It is a short-term loan and the APR is confusing people. The actual

cost of the lawn is around �25 for a very hundred pounds you borrow.

We know of some people who have borrowed a couple of hundred pounds

but can end up thousands of pounds in debt. At the moment, you can go

on to their bank accounts and take money from them. The lenders i it

is set have the limits on the number of times a loan can be

rolled over. Am that they will only do that three time this sort

prevents people from getting into excessive debt. Like other

companies, we can get access to bank accounts to withdraw the money

they owe us. We agree that with them and give them three days'

notice so they know that is happening and that happens for many

people. 70% of people pay the loan off on time in full. One of these

things that is already happening is the government is working alongside

the industry to improve the code of practice. That is about more

transparency for what the exact costs will be. It is about more

robust assessments to make sure people can afford me alone there

taking out. Some lenders have been doing that multiple times. This can

cause problems. In addition, the Office for Fair Trading is also

looking at the issue of pay-day lending. There have been concerns

expressed and there are looking at that in detail. It could be that

further action is needed on the basis of their findings. There is a

cap on loan rates in America. Should that be looked at here or

should you look at that yourself? Capping is a very blunt instrument

and trying to set prices, there are always problems if you set them to

high and you can reduce the availability of credit for people.

If you set it too low, it is not economic bowlfuls -- economic all.

In Washington, the limited the number of times you can use a lawn.

Before the restrictions were put in place, 80% of people were using

regularly to the lenders and 20 per said illegal lenders. That

situation was reversed over the period of months just am putting in

those restrictions. What would you say to critics who say there is not

enough government movement and that is a serious situation that is only

going to get worse? The code of practice comes and later this month.

As I say, we are expecting the report from the Office of Fair

Trading. It makes sense to proceed on the evidence of the facts of the

problem. There are other things we have been able to do in the

meantime. Credit unions remain an option and the government is

investing �38 million to help them improve their IT systems so they

can offer a better alternative. Generally, trying to make sure that

we help people with their cost of living because that is the real

problem here. Cutting the income tax for lower and middle earners

would help prevent people getting into the situation in the first

What a new do to help people are are already in this situation?

is part of the new code of conduct. It is important to recognise that

there is advice out their. There is the money advice service, Citizens

Advice. The best thing to do is go and get that advice. Rather than

thinking that a short-term loan is the answer. Presumably they do that

because they cannot get the money elsewhere. If they passed all those

tests they could get money from the banks. For some individuals and

difficulty it is a signal that there is a wider sustainability

issue with their finances. Perhaps getting advice earlier on,

management plans, discussions with creditors. That support is out

their. It can be difficult for people to take a deep breath and

get that advice but in the long run it is the better thing to do.

are people using pay-day loans, and what do they spend them on? It is

short-term, law commitment. Maybe people cannot use their credit

cards but do not want to go into an unauthorised overdraft because

there are fees associated with that. Around about 45% of our customers

around d A p c one the socio- economic bracket. -- are in the

ABC1. So people use these things for a variety of reasons. It is not

our place to ask why, it is our place to lend responsibility and do

a affordability checks and make sure we're not giving money to

people in financial difficulty and making the situation any more

difficult. We certainly do not want to lend to people who do not pay

back. That sounds credible but what is the reality? Some lenders act in

a responsible way but there are others who aren't. We need more

information to help people tell between the different types,

through the government, and other enforcers. The question the

Scottish Government wants to give to voters in the independence

referendum has been given to the electoral commission to be tested

for fairness. Had also monitor campaign spending. The government

estimates that conducting the poll will cost around �10 million. The

historic Edinburgh agreement. Allowing the Scot's a legally

binding vote on whether they want independence. Signed sealed and

delivered. The question? Do you agree that Scotland should be an

independent country? Critics argue that the working prompts a yes

response and would wreck of the result. Electoral commission will

now ask of Botha's, language specialists, politicians, and

academics, aware of the question is clear, simple, and a neutral. --

whether the question. The Scottish Government does not have to take

that advice but it would have some explaining to do if it turned it

down. The commission also has a key role in advising the Scottish

Government on what have become highly controversial spending

limits for the campaign in the 16 weeks up to and including the vote.

Ministers want campaigners to spend up to �750,000. The electoral

commission suggested up to �1.5 million. The Government argues that

political parties be a limit to spending �250,000. The electoral

commission has yet to set out a view on this. The Scottish

Government's concern is that the collective spending of pro-Unionist

could outstrip that of pro- independence parties. The

commission aims to make further spending suggestions in January and

to issue its few on the referendum question by February. Because

Holyrood has the final say we will not know the exact question and the

spending limits until MSPs vote on the referendum Bill later next year.

I am joined by the head of the Electoral Commission, John

McCormack. What criteria do you use to describe how much these units

should be? We want to make sure that a cap is set at such a level

that there can be the kind of campaigning which will inform

reporters about the issue, subject, and question. So that they are well

informed. Now, campaigning is very expensive. In the last Scottish

Parliament dull and it was �1.5 million. The government has

recommended a limit of �750,000. We believe that is a little bit law.

We do not want excessive spending but we need sufficient spending for

people to make a judgment. The pro- independence parties are concerned

that the pro unionist parties have a larger resource plot which will

give an unfair advantage. Do you take advantage -- account of that?

Yes, we do. The two of the campaigns have their own planet.

The biggest amount of funding they can spend. -- there or no limit.

Since it is not a parliamentary election, people who are not

members of a parliamentary party take a part, and we recommend,

again, a higher level for them than that recommended by the Scottish

Government. If so you have to look at everything together and see if

it feels fair. At the look at the question and that decisions having

to be made about the question -- if we look, you say it should be

neutral and unambiguous. As this -- is this ambiguous language? Ours is

an evidence based process. Lot of people are opining with little

evidence. We have just began the process. Their voters are at the

heart of the process. We will conduct focus groups, to understand

that people appreciate what the question means in conversation.

Focus groups work, will take place over the next eight weeks, and at

the same time we will discuss the question with people who are

interested. The Plain English Society, academics, campaigners. We

will bring all that together in one of report and give it to the

government in February. I should stress that will be a parliamentary

decision. Has there been in the past a perceived value in a

statement of fact? Such as, Scotland should be an independent

country, followed by, I agree, or I disagree? We have not conducted

research on that. Every referendum is different. We have to look at

the context. We know what the question will be with 18 months to

go. That was very unlikely for the alternative vote referendum. So at

a referendum has its own context. Will people understand? Will they

have time to know what the different outcomes will mean? So we

look at everything in its own context. Many commentators are

saying that the question is not so important because of the timescale

people have to discuss the issue. Is that valid? The question will be

the bedrock of any campaign. Voters must understand the question,

believe it is neutral. And then the campaigners can get on with making

the argument. Arguably it is the most important part of the

referendum. Do you want to offer an opinion on the advantages of

running a Yes campaign as opposed to a No campaign? Not in terms of

their merits, if but in terms of the two different words? No, I

don't want to do that! But the evidence we have talking to

specialists and researchers, we will find out all those things in

the context of the referendum. It is important to place it in the

context of the referendum. Interestingly, the information we

can been will then inform public awareness campaigns and how we

communicate with the voters as the Commission. We know the government

can reject your advice. What could be the effect of that? They would

have to publish their reasons and an addendum to the referendum Bill.

The electoral commission advice has been accepted that the time in the

past. There have been misunderstandings - people

commented that the weekend about an issue relating to a projected local

income tax referendums in England, where the UK Government did not

accept their advice and passed a bill which contain the question we

had concerns with. But no referendums were held. But since

then they have came back to us and we have since agreed on a form of

Wapping we're happy to put to voters and these referendums may

take place in the future. So if they do not take our advice in this

case, but we are content advice has been taken, they would have to

publish reasons for it. But it is correct that Parliament takes the

final decision. You must put the voter first in a democracy. They

have the influence, and their representatives in Parliament are

the right people to take that advice. What sort of timescales are

we looking at? We will submit a report in February so it can inform

the Pill as it goes through Parliament from February onwards. -

- bill. Coming up, we look at a complex task of removing a

vulnerable child from their home to place them in their careful stock

was the adoption process for potential parents take too long? --

to place them and care. Les crossover to the newsroom forced. -

Good afternoon. George Entwistle resigned and was not forced out of

his job according to the chairman of the BBC Trust. He has defended

his own role in the crisis which saw the resignation last night

following an Newsnight broadcast which alleged a senior Conservative

politician from the Margaret Thatcher either was involved in

child abuse. It proved unfounded. Lord Patten says he must remain in

his post as the BBC seek to restore public trust. There is not a

bloodbath Gailes Links yet. But a headlines were dreadful for the BBC

this morning. Ridiculed as out of touch and out of his debt, George

Entwistle last night resigned, saying it was the honourable thing

to do. That BBC should appoint a new leader. What finally put paid

to him? Admitting he did not know in advance about the inaccurate

Newsnight film and only learnt it was wrong Arras after that was

reported elsewhere. The chairman of the BBC Trust attempted to stop the

damage spreading. In the interest of the licence payer and the

audience I have to make sure that the BBC has a grip and can put the

horrendous crisis to one side for the moment. The BBC has been one of

the most respected national institutions. Some commentators say

his own job is on the line. After ship is stabilised his position

could be secured. If he does not, if there is any sense of

prevarication, he has had it. BBC's worst crisis for years,

prompted by its failure in the journalism. Leads us speak now to

our correspondent at the Broadcasting House in central

London. What is the first thing the new acting Director General will

He will have to take back decisions right away. After the broadcast

mistakenly implying that a senior Conservative politician was

imported child abuse, George Entwistle asked for a report into

the broadcast. Now, that report is due on the Director General's desk

today. If it shows that people did not do their jobs properly then it

and Davies will decide what, if any, disciplinary action will be taken.

He will also talk to Lord Patten today about the future of Newsnight

as a programme. In the last hour we have heard from Downing Street who

say that this is a very serious and difficult moment for the BBC. They

do not believe it is an existential crisis but they say that the BBC

People across the country fell silent at 11 am to remember those

who gave their lives and war. Other parades were held by British troops

The Queen, at the Cenotaph. Leading the remembrance. At the 11th hour,

are the 11th day, of the 11th month, Around the UK, the country pause to

remember. In Afghanistan at the British base, the honoured those

they have lost. For the Queen this year, there was added poignancy,

knowing her grandson is currently serving in Afghanistan. The royal

party share the worries and concerns of other military families.

From political leaders to representatives of the Commonwealth,

it is ad of calm reflection. For the veterans, the march past

remains a moment of immense pride. As another year passes, it is their

chance to honour the sacrifices of That's all the news for now. More

here at 6:00pm. Here in Scotland, people have also

fallen silent on Remembrance Sunday. Me First Minister paid tribute to

the war dead in Edinburgh and in Glasgow, hundreds of former

soldiers and their families stood beside the Cenotaph. On the 11th

hour of the 11th the of the 11th month, we gather to make our act of

Scottish Water is going to ask its customers that they want to pay

more for a better service. The public body is launching a

consultation on its future. It is the biggest test of customer

opinion since Scottish Water was formed 10 years ago.

Scotland face the first of three Bottom Test matches this afternoon.

Up it is sure to be a severe test for Scotland to have never beaten

the All Blacks in any of their 28 previous meetings. The match is a

It looks like we are being smiled on today for Remembrance Sunday.

They pride picture across most of Scotland. A bit more in the way of

cloud across the North but still some sun coming through. Quite

uneasy with the fresh north- Now, when is the right time to

remove a vulnerable child from their family home and put them up

for adoption? It's a debate that's gaining momentum at Holyrood, with

a parliamentary inquiry asking if decisions are being made quickly

enough. But there's a warning from some social workers that a push for

earlier intervention could break-up families unnecessarily. As more

people are encouraged to consider adoption, as part of national

adoption week, Hayley Jarvis has been looking at the issues.

This is our new home and we have only been here a few days. Jane is

preparing for the arrival of the two children she talks to a dot

with her husband in the new year. We have seen pictures of these

children and we fell in love. We have studied every inch of them and

it was an instinctive thing. We still have no doubt that they will

be our children and we will love them for the S of our lives. It is

good we were adopted together because we were not split up.

was adverts like this that prompted Jane and her husband to contact

Barnardos. The charity are encouraging more families to do the

same but are also putting pressure on the Scottish government to move

faster when it comes to putting neglected children into care.

their child protection issues and there is abuse, they will not delay,

but there can be a tendency to leave children too long way it is

neglect, in situations where a chap -- families are not able to meet

the standards needed. There are more than 16,000 looks after

children in Scotland. In 2010, 2% were under the age of one but the

majority were older children for whom it is more difficult to find

Secure Homes for stuck up should intervention be made sooner? It was

an issue made during a debate in Holyrood this week. There appears

to be a growing consensus that decisions need to be made more

quickly. There are a lot of different stakeholders who need to

come together to ensure we can take the work forward. We do not want to

speed things too fast in case it has negative consequences for

children. Here in Castle up, the emphasis is very much on it early

intervention. How to form those vital bonds between children and

parents in the early stages of the child's life will start some

children are referred here by social workers. A lot of our work

is about empowering the parents and insuring the parents understand

they have the skills and the talents. They can turn their lives

around. Investing in services like this is what some social workers

say is the key to preventing more children from ending up in care.

really need to ask why more children are coming into care. If

we do not know the reasons for that we cannot managed to successfully

keep more children within their families. There is no point in

having good family support services that prevent the drama and crisis

of the family break down. Up should be a presumption be to give parents

a second chance with support or should the authorities act more

quickly to remove them from their families.

Well, with me now is Neil Hunter, who is the principal reporter of

the children's reporter administration, which takes many of

the key decisions in the adoption process, and Barbara Hudson who is

the Scottish Director of the British Association for Adoption

and Fostering. Before we look at the process of

adoption and how long that takes, to pack up on a point in the film,

if it is obvious the child is being abused they can be removed quickly,

but it is this great ad up of neglect. Do you except that is a

big problem? I would totally endorse what was said in the film.

There is the real problem in understanding what we mean by

neglect and what the impact is. Neglect means not being the child

in mind are not thinking about what they have to meet our weather may

feel comfortable or says. Neglect means a child waking up and not

knowing what is there for breakfast and not feeling safe going to sleep

at night. The effect of neglect is long term because it begins to wear

away at a child's sense of self- esteem, confidence and happiness.

That is not the good start. Have we underestimated the effect in the

past? And up to put it starkly, if we have not seen bruises on

children, our attention has perhaps been distracted. Understanding the

needs of very small children and how important it is for them to

have the optimum care to flourish. We have focused on demonstrating

that injury has a card and not understood that not receiving love,

care, and that tension is abuse. It is neglect and it is abused. Once

the difficult decision is made that the child is permanently removed

from their birth family and put up for adoption, what is happening in

the speed with which that is taking place? The delay in the process

took place before that. One of the things our research has shown us

that after the child has been removed from their home, there is a

period in which we start to think about the possibility of a return

to the parents and it assessing it parent will capacity. The ability

to safely look after the child in the long term is one of the things

that can take some time to decide. One of the things we can do to

improve arrangements and Scotland is looking at headlines surrounding

Pendle capacity. -- time lines. Presumably if you do not do that,

the figures suggest the average time is two years', which is a

massive amount of time in a child's life. I am very optimistic about

parents' ability to recover from things like alcohol problems but we

need to understand that can take many years. Two or three years to

recover from issues parents are facing in the context of a young

child creates a disconnect for sup what should happen to the child in

those circumstances? We have to be able to work to plan a if that is

about returning to parents. We have to be hoped for of that but have an

alternative plan in the background which can be brought into play it

when it becomes obvious parents cannot look after their children.

Do you have any concerns about that time scale? Some critics of the

present process say that for too long, parents have been given the

benefit of the doubt to the detriment of the child. Is it OK to

say they could be fine in a couple of years' time? It is a hugely

complicated and very important decision and what happens is that

everyone in the system recognises the lifelong and life-changing

significance of the decisions. There is a real desire to get it

right and sometimes we will never know if we got it right. You have

to take a risk and make the decision on balance. We know that

the damage done to children of living a provisional existence, not

knowing what is going to happen to them, their temporary foster carers

and what will happen to them, that is damaging. The delay is damaging

and we need to try to work together to have confidence in the

efficiency of the process and realising that if we take these

bold decisions for children, that people will support what is being

done rather than getting into a culture of blame. Interesting way,

it is extraordinarily rare flurry Sheriff to say the social work

department should never have been involved. It is extremely rare for

them to say we got it wrong right from the start. It is very much a

case of how long it takes to get to a position where we decide it is no

longer feasible for the child to consider the birth parents as their

carers for the rest of their lives. Everyone watching this would Asim

it is a hugely complex process you have to go through it. We do not

have time today to discuss the alternative of keeping children

with parents. I just wondered, would it be the case and do you

have any concerns that different children seething sea around the

country because of their own cultural make-up might come to a

different decision about a child with the same set of circumstances?

I would hope there would be consistency across the country.

Children's panel members are drawn from the community and it reflects

the cultural make-up of the community. I would hope that faced

with the good quality information around children and their

backgrounds, they have won decision to make and that is about the best

interests of the child. I would hope that is consistent across the

country. I would agree that we are not always confident there is that

consistency across the country. Because the amount of work is

different in different places, the challenge facing people and some ad

is is that they're making decisions are very rarely of this

significance and that is the challenge for them, whereas in

other places they are routinely looking at these matters of up one

of the things we are seeking to work together through our

respective organisations and other groups, is to try to get it more

co-ordinated across Scotland. I do not think there is much

disagreement and it is very much about how we all get together and

Do you think a co-ordinated response is needed? We are working

together to share exactly wrecking the practice that are at describes

to the best effect possible. I look Weeks of speculation over the

future of the Scottish Football Manager Craig Levein came to ahead

when the Scottish FA announced he had been sacked. We need a new

manager to turn around the campaign and move us for what. Alex Salmond

is the longer selling First Minister in Scotland, his sights

are now set on another goal. I am not saying I will go on and on. I

want to see Scotland win the referendum. More homework on the

horizon for prospective teachers as the Government proposes a literacy

and numeracy tests to raise standards. And the chance in a

lifetime was bloated on when scalp the islanders voted in a referendum

to run their island for the of charge. It needs to be done for the

good of the island. That time of the day now where we take a moment

I am joined by the SNP locker Kate Hogan's, and Labour commentator,

Ian Smart. Thank you both for coming in. The headlines - the BBC

all over the front pages. Where is this going? It could not get any

more bizarre or serious for the BBC. I would agree with lots of

commentators to death. If they can get a grip and steady the ship,

then a joint -- then at the sad resignation of the George Entwistle

will have sorted things out. But, from my perspective, it is

important to get the story back on to the victims and not the media.

Where does this go from here? an extraordinary development. In my

day job their last line of any police statement is, I cannot I

cannot identify the accused. To run the report without that assumes his

astonishing. You could not make it up. I just wonder about the

illegality of Newsnight not mentioning some body by name but in

the context of a wider social media context. That is an interesting

legal issue, apart from anything else. Yes, but it was a pretty

narrow group of people they were identifying. A senior member of the

Thatcher either, but not elected. You were talking potentially have a

dozen people. The curious would immediately gone to the Internet to

find out who was being talked about and they knew that perfectly well.

When the lawyers said that they could not name the man and a

programme, alarm bells should have been ringing. Well be on Newsnight.

There is something about people who use social media. We are two such.

They need to show restraint and responsibility in how the use it.

The more that the situations arise where people are wrongly named for

the world to see, then the more likely that we will have

restrictions, legal restrictions, on how you can use social media.

For the victims, potentially? Absolutely. That is the worst thing

that could happen. People who would have been thinking about coming

forward and making disclosures will see the environment changed and

think about something very different. If people must put them

first and think about their needs and interests first. Earlier on we

spoke about Pete -- pay-day loans. What changes can be brought an

effectively? They are not illegal. I don't hold to the view that they

shouldn't be illegal. For riskier credit, people pay a premium, that

is the way of the world, but it should not be impossible to say

that some of these are ludicrous interest rates are made illegal. I

might be wrong but I have a memory of such look -- interest rates

being illegal. At some point in the deregulation that led to the crash

somebody decided that it should be for the market to decide. A

shocking situation. There are so Captain America. What should happen

here? -- there is a cap in America. They should be made illegal. They

prey on the vulnerable. Law income people in vulnerable people should

invest in credit unions, access to the same financial services and

benefits that the rest of us enjoy. There is something wrong with a

society and system that rewards are rich people for being able to pay

their gas bills by direct debit, and punishes poor people because

they rely on weekly payment methods. We have to move away from that and

create a level playing field for poor people so that they enjoy the

St benefits as others. Outlawing pay-day loans is an essential part

of that. Labour for independence have been meeting tomorrow. Who Ali

and what effect will it have? are they? I did not mean that in a

loaded way. Dennis can have an is a long-standing friend of mine but he

is not a member of the Labour Party. Neither is Ricky Ross. He might

have voted for Labour in the past. Socialists for independence? To be

fair, we have them. Colin Fox, the not to be forgotten man of Scottish

politics. There are people on the left who support independence but

the idea that there is some kind of secret section of the Labour party

that supports independence is nonsense. I think it is a

legitimate organisation and more power to them. Labour minded people

coming together to support independence is a very good thing

for the Yes movement. Are we to tied into labels? Absolutely. To

have to categorise people is unhelpful. Both camps actually hack