27/01/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland

Good afternoon. Welcome to the programme. The coalition presides

over the weakest recovery for generations. Labour's lead God the

Prime Minister wants to negotiate a Is the plan achievable? Would we be

better or worse off outside the EU? The two sides go head-to-head.

In Scotland: As the Europe debate picks up speed, the Deputy First

Minister rights to all the EU Foreign Ministers to set out the

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2166 seconds

Next time round, they are far more likely to be talking in the same

line as the UK. Britain has assimilated more than 3,000 EU

directives and regulations every year. How many have been repealed?

Give me an example of something having been returned. I accept

there is a lot of body of legislation. So the answer is

nothing? I do not know. I am dealing with financial services.

knew against repatriation of power? I am not against it, but if EU

choose not to have something in a given area, it is repatriated for

everyone. If we talk about it in those terms we stand much more

chance than if we want to grab it back and never mind what happens to

other people's. If repatriation is not substantial,

you will campaign to leave in the referendum? Yes. Do you think you

will carry the bulk of the Tory party with you on that view?

think so. That is the current opinion-poll evidence of the

members of the MPs, but I do not think that is the key question. It

is not whether the key Tory party votes to accept this. The 14 years

in the Tory party tells me anything, if people are wiser than their

leaders, the problem we have left is leaving it to ministers. I

believe my trust in the British Welcome to the programme. The rally

sets off, destination Monte Carlo, but the big political question is,

are the accelerating towards the Continent or reversing from it?

Who is in the navigation seat? Depression and anxiety are

illnesses that can affect everyone. One in four Scots are impacted with

mental health issues. Are there enough services to support this

condition? Thank you for joining us. Nicola

Sturgeon has written to EU foreign ministers to assure them of

Scotland's commitment to the European Union, putting distance

between Holyrood and Westminster's position on Brussels. But it is the

Scottish voters who will be in the driving seat.

These old cars are being driven from Glasgow across Europe this

weekend, to compete in the Monte Carlo Rally. As they drive from

country to country, Scotland's future relationship with the

European Union will probably not be uppermost in the minds of their

drivers. It was not preoccupying those who turned out to see them

more. It does not keep me awake at night. We are better in than out.

wonder where we are going on Scotland.

What is less clear is who voters' trust most to look after Scotland's

best interests in Europe. Is it Alex Salmond, who wants you to vote

for independence, and then let him negotiate with the European Union

for Scotland to continue to participate but as a full member

state? Or was it David Cameron, who thinks he can cut a better deal for

Britain in the European Union and will then give they say on whether

Too many fellow Scots whose values we share simply do not trust her

motives. When it comes to general elections, they see us as London's

Party in Scotland, not Scotland representatives in London. When it

comes to elections in the Scottish parliament, they want to vote for a

party that will put Scotland first. Too few truly believe that boss. I

want to see us as the party off we can and we will. If voters do not

trust the party generally, made that also applied to the

referendum? -- apply to the referendum about the European

Union? People have to have their say. In terms of the Scottish

Conservatives, we are fully involved in the Better Together

Campaign, and we want people to have a say.

David Cameron's promise about to vote on the EU is designed to

appease the Euro-sceptics on his backbenches and to appeal to Tory

voters who have drifted away to the UK Independence Party. That wants

us to leave the EU. In Scotland, the promise of another referendum

quickly change the dynamic of the independence debate. Alex Salmond

and David Cameron are like peas in a pod. There will always put their

party's interest before the interests of the people of the

country. It does not come from this Parliament, this Government or the

people from Scotland, it comes from the banks of the Thames, and a Tory

coalition dull Dutch government are heading towards the exit door, and

a Labour opposition has still have to clarify what they think about it.

The Deputy First Minister took this message to Dublin, where she told a

business confident -- conference that a EU referendum would create

uncertainty. An Irish government minister suggested Scottish

independence might create uncertainty about Scotland's place

in the EU. It Scotland became independent, they would have to

apply for membership, which can be a lengthy process.

On the road to the independence referendum, there will be many

voices from a -- across Europe. In the end it is the Scottish voters

in the driving seat, and their choices at the ballot box that will

determine the Dow -- direction Scotland will head.

Joining me is the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and external affairs,

the SNP's Fiona Hyslop. We are hearing that Nicola Sturgeon is

writing to European foreign ministers today to brandish her

pro-European credentials, compared to the Prime Minister. Is the

supply for help, after the snub from the European Commission for

talks, and the UK -- UK government said they would not take part in

discussions. No, it is clear we need to make sure that European

capitals know that the Scottish government's position is we are

pure -- pro European. We remain in continuous discussions and part of

the European Union. I am pleased the Irish Minister has confirmed

that she also sees a continuing membership for Scotland, and the

negotiations that would take place would take place between 2014 and

2016, in a way that she thinks is logical under way forward. It is

distinct from David Cameron, who wants to head out of Europe or

threatened to head out. That is not good for Scotland, and if we want

jobs and services predicted, -- protected, there is a clear

distinction that the unfortunate position as those who are against

independence would prefer to gamble on a Tory future. Where did she say

in the e-mail to Nicola Sturgeon that Scotland would not have to

apply for membership? She twice said that to the BBC in the clip

that it does not. It is unfortunate that the BBC has misconstrued her

position, and it is helpful that she has recognised the importance

that Scotland would have across Europe. The the fact we're lying on

-- relying on a Conservative government to allow them to

continue to decide for Scotland, I do not think that is acceptable. I

think Europe wants to see collective reform, and the idea of

unilateral reform put forward by David Cameron is not acceptable.

When the Crighton said that Scotland would have to apply for

membership, and we have that full club so you can hear it.

In Scotland we are dominated by the constitutional debate. One of the

issues is, with an independent Scotland be welcome by his EU

neighbours? Welcome, by all means, but there are legal constraints. It

Scotland were to become independent, they would have to apply for

membership, which can be a lengthy process. Even with the very

advanced and well-integrated countries like Iceland, it still

has a task in terms of transforming his regulation and fitting end to

the European requirements, and that would be the case for Scotland as

well, I think. There would be an application and negotiation process

as it is for any country. Would that be fairly smooth or difficult?

I do not know. It is unprecedented. It hasn't happened before. I do not

see why it would be a terribly complex process, but negotiations

for membership are all was painstaking, and complex, but I do

not see why it would be difficult. I think it would lead to the

accession at the end of the process, but it would take time. It is very

much up to the people of Scotland to what they choose to do. So she

said Scotland would have to apply for membership, do you agree with

what she is saying? I agree with the mill where she says there is no

situation where Scotland would leave the European Union, which is

also the point she makes about Scotland's position being unique.

And this means the position of Scotland would have to be developed

in terms of the terms and conditions required, but also the

Irish minister in her e-mail said she recognises the period of the

"yes" vote in 2014, and a period where these terms and conditions in

relation to membership, and the technical details would take until

2016. We have a member -- been a member for many years, so we are

quite distinct, but the difference is her vision is for corporation

with her European partners. -- our vision for corporation.

She says Scotland would have to apply, but Nicola Sturgeon says

that is not the case, but there is no political difference between

Ireland and Scotland. There is the period between a "yes" vote and

independence, when the terms in relation to a membership and

compliance would be decided, I have every confidence we would be

welcomed. The Irish Minister has said that. Many ministers I meet

you also say that. The biggest risk to Scotland and its future is

relying on a Conservative government, and that is where the

Labour Party is. We have to give the people of Scotland the decision

and leadership. How important is the European debate in Scotland for

the "yes" campaign? It is important in relation to the economy, the

environment, and in terms of workers' rights, we are already

seeing the Conservative government wanting to undermine using the

welfare system, those in low-paid work, relying on benefits. Then

there is an attack on employment protection that David Cameron wants

to see, these are relevant. These are not abstract issues, they

affect people a free day. The future of energy policy, a Scot and

has a great deal to contribute, I think was a very important economic

issue, not just political. Thank you very much.

In the under studio is the former Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer

and leader of the pro-union together is Better campaign,

Alistair Darling. -- Better Together Campaign. Do you agree

with Ed Miliband's position on the EU in/out referendum? If you look

at the position David Cameron set out last week, it was driven by the

needs of the Conservative Party, internally and the threat of UKIP.

It was not a position he worked out of a matter of principle. As far as

Scotland is concerned,... Can I interrupt you, I want to ask about

which position you are talking about that Mr Miliband takes. Isn't

it one that he does not want a referendum -- is it one that he

wants a referendum, or does he not need a referendum if powers are

going back to Brussels? I do not speak for the Labour Party any more,

but I have nothing to fear of referendums. If you are going to

There is a lot of uncertainty. We will not have this referendum for a

few years. I said before, I thought a two year delay for the referendum

will create uncertainty, and the four years uncertainty aggravates

the position regarding the EU fault. The sound went down while Fiona was

speaking, but in relation to Scotland and Europe, Nicola

Sturgeon wrote a letter to other European governments in which she

set out the virtues of the European Union, the fact we are closer trade

and co-operation, and I agree with most of that. However, if it is

right for Europe because it is a big single market, it must be right

in bucketloads so far as the rest of the UK is concerned, we sell

four times as much to England as we do to Europe. The logic must be

that Scottish is better and stronger together in the United

Kingdom, as I believe the United Kingdom is better and stronger

together as part of the European What do your think your position

would be, particularly if the UK has to renegotiate substantially

with Brussels if there is a closer fiscal union? I don't speak to the

Labour Party. I am not drawing up the manifesto for 2015 or any other

time. My view is this; by 2015, just under two years' time, it will

be clearer what the position is, with regards to the eurozone and

whether or not that means the fundamental treaties need to be

looked at again. If the UK is going to seek a better deal or the

repatriation of powers, you is to understand, so will other countries

want to do the same thing. The other thing is you have to build

alliances with the non-Euro- countries. Holding a gun to

people's heads does not make sense. Looking at better together new you

are split over a key issue when you are meant to be campaigning

together. We are not. Our campaign was set up to convince people that

Scotland is better and stronger together within the United Kingdom.

Nothing has changed as a result of last week. We are all agreed that

Scotland would have to renegotiate terms within Europe. You just heard

the Irish minister say that at some length, so has everyone else.

There's going to be uncertainty there. I have never argued that the

rest of Europe would not want us in, but the terms and conditions,

whether on the euro, the passport controls - there would have to be a

negotiation. Now nothing that David Cameron said last week has changed

that one jot and the nationalists are in that position. This is only

a year ago they were arguing they had a legal opinion which said the

opposite. It turned out to be a complete fiction. Their credibility

on that is pretty near nil. Yes, Europe is important. If they are

right about staying in Europe, they must be right about staying in the

single market we are already in, which is called the United Kingdom.

I want to ask you about the economy, as a former Chancellor. In your

opinion, are we approaching a triple dip recession? There is now

a risk that will happen. The economy was growing in 2010, and

this Government killed that off and they did it by trashing people's

confidence with comparisons about what is going on in Europe. They

embarked on a policy of austerity. The policy has failed. It's not

going anywhere. We will pay a very, very heavy price for it. It is time

they started thinking closely about what they are doing. If we carry on

like this we could have a lost generation, as we had in Japan,

where people will be denied opportunities and have lower

standards of living. That is intolerable.

Thank you very much for joining us. Turning to coalition partners at

Westminster, we have Rory Stewart t Conservative MP for Penrith and the

Borders, who sits in the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. In our

Aberdeen studio is Sir Malcolm Bruce, the former leader of the

Scottish Liberal Democrats. Good afternoon to you both. First to you,

Rory Stewart, we are hearing about the EU, in-out referendum there.

Where do you stand on it? Like David Cameron I believe the current

situation is not acceptable. We have to push for a new relationship

with Europe. Otherwise Britain will be in an isolated Uncomfortable

situation. If we cannot get that, I believe we should vote to leave. It

is not up to me. It is not up to David Cameron. It is up to the

British people. Sir Malcolm, you are listening to that. How on earth

can you remain in this coalition when it is so divided over such a

key point? Nick Clegg was saying this referendum is not in the

national interest. How can you remain in the coalition?

Conservative Party are talking about what they would do if they

were to win the next election, which they are increasingly unable

to do. There'll be nothing more isolating for Britain than to be

outside the United Kingdom, outside the European Union. I am a former

reformer of the European Union. There is a lot we should and can do.

The idea of demanding it and then if we don't get it leaving, puts us

in a weaker position than we would otherwise be. I think the problem

for David Cameron is that he's really addressing his own party

rather than the interests of the country. It's not consistent, in my

view, to be passionately in favour of keeping the United Kingdom

together and arguing that Scotland should stay in the United Kingdom,

whilst arguing that Britain should leave the European Union. The

argument is the same in both cases. Rory Stewart, from your Lib Dem

colleague there, putting party interests there. He is a

distinguished man drawing the comparison. The United Kingdom is a

country with strong historical connections between what was

originally the kingdom of Scotland and England. The European Union is

not a country. It is a block with any number of different languages

and cultures within it. It is daft to say the United Kingdom is the

same as the European Union and the issues which affect one are the

same as those which affect the other. If you pick up on that point.

We have a single market in the United Kingdom. We have a single

market in the European Union, which abgtkhully Britain did much to help

to -- actually Britain did much to help to shape. Just as I argue it

is the UK and Scotland's interest to stay together because they have

so much in common and a common open market, what we have developed in

Europe is a similar open market and one that Britain needs to be part

of. There is a real dainger in the -- dainger in the course that the

Prime Minister has set, he has indicated that, but then found his

party does not support him and possibly the country does not

support him, without a clear indication of where we finish up if

we are outside Europe. There is no other organisation we can usefully

join. We are just left on the margins. We are talking there also

with Alistair Darling there and the Better Together Campaign. What the

Prime Minister is proposing has blown together - the campaign, on

two issues, causing uncertainty and criticising nationalists for

waiting a long time for this referendum. This one will not come

until 2017. I believe you will see the Labour Party position move

quickly. You can see it moving already. It is difficult. We found

the same in Scotland and we will with the European Union. It is

difficult to fight against a referendum N the end this is about

the people. It is about what kind of country you want to live in and

giving people a choice over their sovereignty. Alistair Darling will

find himself isolated within the Labour Party, increasingly. It is

difficult to say people should not be given a say. Nick Clegg wanted a

referendum before the 2010 referendum, but now he does not

want one and the treaty will be renegotiated. Probably we do need a

referendum. Thafrpblgt is why we have introduce -- That is why we

have introduced that for the circumstances for a referendum. If

there is a transfer of power there should be a referendum F there is a

referendum we will campaign and campaign for Britain to stay in. I

have to say, if you look at it from the European perspective, they've

had this declaration from David Cameron and they have had e-mails...

Sorry, we have to leave it there. We are running out of time at the

moment. Thank you very much for joining me.

We are coming up to the news now. Here on Sunday Politics Scotland we

will talk about mental illness after the latest update from the

In a moment we will look ahead to the big stories. A fire in a

nightclub in Brazil has claimed 245 lives. It is thought the blaze

broke out in the packed club in the Santa Maria. The fire, officials

say, spread within seconds. The result of a stage show gone wrong.

Dozens of youngster rushed to escape. The first started, as we

know, from some sort of firework display, even before the

firefighters were there, people were helping, trying to make holes

in the wall of this nightclub to help people get out. Santa Maria

has a large student population. It is thought a party with 500 people

was being held last night. The scale of this disaster has left

Brazil stunned. Investigations are underway to discover the exact

cause of the fire and how come so many came to die.

The Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, says a referendum on member

of the European Union is not in the national interest. Mr Clegg says

David Cameron is risking growth and jobs by tying the country in knots

in what he calls an arcane debate about the terms of Britain's

membership. My priority will always remain a simple objective of

building a stronger economy in a fairer society. That job is made

more difficult if you have years and years tying yourself up in

knots. Having debates about the terms of the membership of the

United Kingdom before we get to a referendum. Tens of thousands of

people are attending the funerals of 29 people killed in violence in

Egypt yesterday, following a verdict in the football riots case.

Clashes broke out between some mourners and the security forces.

Yesterday's violence started after 21 people were sentenced to death

for their part in rioting last year. French-led forces in Mali are

closing in on Timbuktu. Malian and French forces seized

another city in the north of the country yesterday.

Andy Murray has failed to win his second Grand Slam tit until a row,

losing to Novak Djokovic -- Grand Slam title in a row, lose -- losing

to Novak Djokovic. Murray struggled with a hamstring injury and

blistered feet. That is all the news now. More here on BBC One at

6pm. Good afternoon. As you have just

seen, disappointment for Andy Murray in Melbourne N a gruelling

match lasting three hours and 40 minutes Novak Djokovic powered his

way to win 3-1. Murray thanked his team and praised his opponent.

would like to thank Djokovic. His record here is incredible. Very few

people have managed to to what he's done here. She a very well-deserved

champion. Well done again. Scotland star Leigh Griffiths is

reported to have been arrested on suspicion of shoplifting.

He was detained in an Edinburgh store yesterday. He said it was a

big misunderstanding. An aid worker murdered in Pakistan last year is

the winner of the Robert Burns Humanitarian Award.

Khalil Dale, a former Dumfries nurse spent 30 years with the

British Red Cross, helping vulnerable people in some of the

most dangerous places in the world. A year ago he was abducted in

Pakistan. His body was found three months later. Now the weather

forecast. Good afternoon to you. We are in

for a mixed afternoon as far as the for a mixed afternoon as far as the

weather is concerned. We will continue to see blustery showers

piling into western parts of the country, falling as snow on the

hills. We should see some brighter interludes. Further east it remains

largely dry with decent spells of brightness and sunshine. A fresh

south-westerly wind for many parts of the country this afternoon. Gale

force for the Western Isles at time and feeling milder than of late.

That is all for now. Back to you. Thank you very much. MSPs were told

this week that mental illness is one of the top public health

one of the top public health challenges in Europe.

The strategy started last year. One charity estimates the social and

economic costs of mental illness are �11 million per year. One in

four people in Scotland will experience a mental health problem

every year. That can range from excessive stress, anxiety and

depression, to schizophrenia and bipolar disorders. Although numbers

have decreased over the past decade n2011, 772 people died by suicide

in Scotland. That is around two people per day. 10% of 5-15-year-

olds suffer mental health problems when they are growing up. As Linda

Fabiani pointed out during the debate, mental health illness has a

big impact on someone's self-esteem. When you look at stigma and what

goes along with it - the bullying, the humiliation - whether it's

depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, whatever, whether it is a one-off,

period oddic, these are the effects, marginallisation, that does

terrible things to people. With me in the studio is Billy Watson t --

This is a huge issue in Scotland, and we do have a good legislator

unsocial policy legacy in Scotland. The 2000 and the Mental Health Act

is admired internationally. We now have a new Scottish strategy for

mental health. We are at a moment in time where we can move forward

on the issue, and I think the challenge for the Scottish

government is to take this policy and strategy and translated and

transact it into real meaningful services on the ground. --

translator it. By December 2014, there is a target to wait no more

than 18 weeks for treatment. What is the situation at the moment?

is not great. It's still concerns organisations like ours that it has

taken this sort of time to get a guaranteed to access to what is a

vital treatment. We have had it and physical health for a long time,

and it is two years away. But still feels like we have ground to make

up. Audit Scotland did a report that showed support for

psychological therapies depending on where you are in Scotland can

take several years. We will be interested to see how the Scottish

government gets from here to there in two years. The suicide

statistics a minute ago were frightening. What more can be done

at a community level to try to tackle it? The Community point was

vital. Scotland has done some great work, suicide rates have come down.

But two people a day is two too many. There are two things that can

be done. More crisis intervention. Unfortunately when someone is in

crisis, there is a run -- revolving door between accident and emergency,

the police, and organisations like ours. The community response also

needs to be better. People need to be able to speak to people in the

same situation, supporting family members who are having suicidal

thoughts. It is still one of the most difficult things to talk about.

We have to leave it there, thank you very much.

In a moment we will discuss the big events coming up next week, but

first, let us take a look back at This week the Scottish Government's

281 �6 billion budget for the year ahead was approved in principle by

Parliament. I believe the Budget provides a

bold and ambitious programme of investment in people and

infrastructure. Westminster MPs voted in favour of a proposal to

lower the voting age in UK elections from 18-16. But the

result is not binding, and the Conservatives are opposed to the

moves. Unemployment in Scotland fell again.

It fell by 14,000, bringing down the total number of people who are

jobless to 207,000. It is time for a crackdown on people who abuse the

use of disabled parking badges. The SNP MSP launched a bill aimed at

giving officials greater powers to confiscate permits not be being

used properly. Let us take a look forward to the

next a than days. This week we have a splendid double

act joining us in the Edinburgh studio. We have Iain Macwhirter,

and in the studio we have Paul Gilbride from the Daily Express.

Thank you for joining us. Thank you for hanging on after a Andy Murray.

Let us look at one issue in their Sunday Herald. Nicola Sturgeon is

writing to the EU foreign ministers brandishing her pro-European

credentials, and we hear her talking about Lucinda Crichton as

well. Yes, this whole debate about whether or not Scotland will be

thrown out of Europe and would have to renegotiate away in is now

completely irrelevant because it is abundantly clear that of Scotland

votes to remain in the UK, we are just as likely to find ourselves

thrown out of the EU as a result of forts taken by Conservatives in the

south of England, decisions taken by Westminster. Paul Gilbride, it

was interesting what Fiona Hyslop was saying about Lucinda Crichton.

She was anxious to make sure that nothing from Ireland said it would

be a problem with Scotland applying or reapplying. The argument has

moved on, I do not think there is any issue that an independent

Scotland would be welcomed with open arms to Europe. The issue now

is would it have to reapply? After what was said last week, sorry,

before Christmas, Scotland would be an independent state. You're

shaking your head. Let us pick up on match. Quite clearly we are just

as likely to find ourselves out of Europe if Scotland remains within

the UK as if Scotland were to become independent. Scotland has

been under the protection of EU law for the last 20 years, and it would

be unique. There is no mechanism in the EU for throwing people out to

have been subject to the European law. It is redundant now. Let us

put upon the point for the pro Unionist parties. Mr Cameron's

statement on Wednesday threw them into disarray. Yes, but Labour will

come round. They have to state a position before we get into the

campaign for a referendum. The Better Together Campaign is not

about whether we stay in Europe, it is about whether Scotland stays in

the UK. It has a different campaign, a different argument. In the Sunday

Herald, the yes campaign boss says there is no need to battle over the

referendum question. Could there be a battle over the referendum

question? There will be an argument on it. I do not know if the

electoral commission will come up to any radical proposals to change

in it, but there will be some suggestions for the wording changed.

Blair Jenkins has suggested they have the final decision on this,

and under section 30, it is clear they do not. The decision will be

taken by the Scottish parliament. I think it would be almost

inconceivable if the Scottish parliament would reject a

reasonable proposal made. Blair Jenkins was saying that we should

just accept what they say. I agree. The electoral commission is seen as

impartial, independent, and a Scottish parliament can start

arguing with their recommendations can do more damage than good. The

question, do you agree Scotland should become an independent

country, people have argued that is loaded, do you agree. We should get

a question, should Scotland become independent? Something like that.

The big issue will be the funding. Yes, there will be an argument over

that as well because the yes campaign are fairly keen to keep a

lid on the funding abyss. They are uneasy at the prospect of being up

against all the Unionist parties. Also, there has been a backwash of

debates taking place out of the border, and they want to keep tight

control on it. There will be a relaxation of that. Do you think

there will be a big fight over it? I think there could be. The funding

from south of the border could flood in. That would be an unfair

advantage for the pro-union campaign. Paul Gilbride and Iain

Macwhirter, thank you for joining us. We are on a bit later than

normal to a thank you for staying That is all from us this week. Just

a reminder about a Newsnight Scotland special programme coming

up tomorrow. An audience representing Scotland's ethnic

minority communities will question leading politicians about issues