05/05/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

The so-called clowns had the last laugh in Thursday's local elections

and now claim to be changing the shape of British politics. We'll be

asking what next for Nigel Farage's UKIP. Where next for David Cameron?

He's talking to a lot of men in white coats. Means they must all

have gone to Eton. We'll get the thoughts of former party Chairman,

David Davis. And how did young Edward fair?

Average. And must do better, say some Labour folk. We'll be asking

one of his biggest supporters why And coming up on Sunday Politics

Scotland: What would Scotland stand to gain or lose on an international

stage in the event of a "yes" vote in next year's independence

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1785 seconds

There are not many people with a coal miner in the Cabinet. The idea

is that we get people in improvement in the country through

the passion that we have. Let us see what we're in a couple of

years' time. How did Labour fear? Not as well as they might have

hoped. Labour picked up 291 council seats. That is only winning back

what they lost in 2009. That was when Gordon Brown was very

unpopular. That translated into gains in just two county councils.

That was Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire. They hoped to take

Staffordshire but that was dashed. They fell well short of the 350

seats predicted. Some said that they should have won on the basis

of local by-election promises. The national vote share was 29%. That

is 9% down from 2012. Only the same as their actual results in 2010.

On this project at national share of the vote, Labour polled 29%.

That is what Gordon Brown got in 2010. Those results in at 2010 were

for the entire country. No elections in Scotland, only

Anglesey in Wales, no elections in London that is what we have been

those percentages today. We did remarkable things in Government

between 2007 and 2010. But we lost tens of thousands of members. We

lost thousands of activists. We lost thousands of councillors. We

were hollowed out by 2010. We tried to rebuild. We persuaded new

members to become activists and to stand for a council in shire

elections were historically we have done very well. You gained 200 and

windy -- 291 this week. You have just came back the losses that you

lost in one of the biggest losses in Labour's history. You have to

remember that you have to build back from the hollow out. We had no

ministers and some of these areas. We recruited a new members. We lost

MPs in 2010. We turned members into activists and persuaded them to

stand for council elections and had remarkable gains. We won

councillors in seats that we are looking for it in at 2015. We did

well in Stevenage, Carlisle, Crawley, we were in Lincoln. We're

wanting to win backing these areas in 2015. He did well in the South

and you did reasonably well in others. -- you did well in some

areas, but all West Sussex and some areas of the South you didn't even

come second, you came third. With respect, Andrew, we have over run

these councils. You came third! Look at Harlow. Look how we did in

Stevenage. We won seats in Dorset, for God's sake, he's a shire

council elections. For a so-called One nation party you came third in

some of these areas. People have been recruited since May 2010 and

have been persuaded to become active and stand and they have won.

You didn't even do that well in the North. In 1981 you want lots under

Michael Foot. Under Ed Miliband did not win a lot of those. If the

lesson you are trying to teach me is that it is good to have

superficial winds in county council elections, that is not true. --

superficial winds. We have new policies that can persuade people

to get lost trust in 2015. If you look at the results on Thursday,

where we needed to do well, we did remarkably well. We would have

liked to have won more seats, but to have this one term and have

these games we're very pleased. Miliband claims that the centre is

moving left and he is moving with it. These elections give no grounds

for that belief. And it Ed Miliband you were out of touch with public

opinion. The reality is, the vote for UKIP wasn't just moving right.

You were four points ahead. there are elections in Scotland,

Wales, and in London. I except that we have to do better than we are.

But the reason that people voted for UKIP was because people think

that politicians have the answer is there it for the problems that they

face. They can see that their wages are not rising as fast as their

inflation is going. We're persuading people who vote and do

not vote that we can make a positive difference to their life.

I think Ed Miliband has shown in the last two years that he can do

that. Can you just clarify it, you will not offer an in or out

referendum on Europe? We think... Will you offer a referendum between

now and the next election? That is way above Mike pay grade to draft a

manifesto for at 2015. I can say that in May 2013 will were not -

but we will not be promising a referendum. I am asking if you will

offer a referendum between now and the general election, yes or no?

Above my pay grade. You're in the shadow Cabinet. I cannot see what

will be in the manifesto, but I can see just like that that it -- David

Cameron, it is foolish of Alex Salmond to say that he would have

that referendum. It beats to uncertainty and it is madness.

is 11:30pm. You're watching The Hello and welcome to Sunday

Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme:

Scotland's role on the world stage - an independent voice in the

community of nations or staying part of the UK power base, maybe

with an increased role? We will debate what we could gain or lose.

We will look at how Scotland can help its farmers.

And enter the clowns and fruitcakes - UKIP have the last laugh as their

political opponents eat their words, but could their English election

earthquake be felt here in Scotland?

There are just 500 days left until the big decision on Scotland's

future. Much of the debate this week has been on international

affairs. If it is a "no", Scotland would continue to be represented in

the world as part of the UK. A "yes" vote would mean Scotland

speaking for itself. Would Scotland lose its diplomatic clout or would

it gain from having its own voice? Glenn Campbell has been taking

soundings at the United Nations in Scotland is good at making a big

noise in the Big Apple at least once a year. The annual Tartan Day

parade brings a touch of Caledonian colour to 6th Avenue. But if there

was a "yes" vote Scotland would need to make itself heard in New

York. And that would be all year round. They would be a member of

the United Nations. How would Scollan secure its own voice and

its own fault here? Scotland would be very welcome at the un. It is

highly in favour of self- determination. -- UN. If it is

consensual. I do not see trouble in that, but it is a process that

needs to be gone through. They should be backing to smooth the

path towards a vote. Two-thirds of countries would need to support it.

With the approval of other countries Scotland would become the

world's 194th seed. It would sit next to Saudi Arabia and its

nearest neighbour Senegal. That is where it would be alphabetically,

but how would it established itself diplomatically? It would need to

form alliances and partnerships, even the UK cannot do without those.

The impact that the UK has would be lost to Scotland but Scotland would

be speaking with the voice of Scotland. It would have to

establish the impact through the performance of its individuals at

the High Representative level, that's very important. So small

countries need big hitters. The man who represents Europe's newest UN

member is this man. We must recognise realities and to be

realistic. We need to have in mind our national priorities and the

strategies. Then you have to select. Any country can apply for a stint

on the most powerful body. Here on the security panel, United Kingdom

is one of a small number with a presence. Here at the veto

decisions on War and Peace. In the event of Scottish independence, be

UK Government says it would continue to occupy its seat here.

But if that is legally accurate, we did also be politically acceptable

to other countries? -- would it. That would depend on the nuclear

submarine fleet being kept by David Cameron it in the event of Scottish

independence. Foreign affairs committees say that the UK's place

in the international order would be questioned. Otherwise this seasoned

observer thinks that the UK would keep its clout. Some would say that

Britain has changed, but in the case of the Soviet Union and Russia,

Russia all these they became a smaller entity, -- all fiercely,

but I think the President is there and sit. As long as you were the

official holder of bats eat it is your has no matter what you sizes.

-- of that seat. Mb -- in the event of independence Scotland would be

the newest member. And it would be the challenge to make its own way

in the world. Joining me now from our Edinburgh

studio is the former leader of the Liberal Democrats Sir Mingis

Campbell, a member of Westminster's Foreign Affairs Committee who co-

wrote this week's report. And with me in the studio is one of the

SNP's members of the European Parliament, Alyn Smith. He has

lectured in Europe's capitals about the role of an independent Scotland

on the world stage. Alyn Smith, it you recognise that the UK gets to

inherit everything? Do you think Scotland would say it was a Co

equal state? I think there is a matter of debate but we are no new

thing in regards the United Nations. We are also an ancient democracy

and nation. We are re-establishing ourselves within the world

environment. This is as getting into the United Nations as Scotland,

as ourselves. When you talk about Scotland becoming independent and

having a long history of being an independent nation, the agreement

was that we were Co people states in the beginning. Scotland is the

new entity as regards the United Nations. We're fighting for that in

the referendum. The cities of the UK in the eyes of other people as a

matter for the UK, not us. He seems quite relaxed about the United

Nations. How do you think it would proceed? But his effort was to

become independence. I think everybody is quite relaxed about

successful membership of the United Nations for Scotland. The body of

opinion expressed in that package seems pretty clear that the rest of

the United Kingdom would maintain the position of a permanent member

of the Security Council with that important right of veto. But I do

not think the United Nations would be the problem. As our report

represents areas contrary reports to the SNP. Where there might be a

fast track for or negotiation, there is no certainty that there

would be a fast track for Accession. Many people in the business

community believe it could be damaging to Scotland's interests. A

report is based on written evidence. You will find it all on page 62.

Some very distinguished professors of international relations and Lord

who came and gave witness. Including Jeremy Greenstock who we

saw in that package a moment or two ago. Let us stick with Pete UN

right now. -- with the UN right now. Do you not think it could provoke a

groundswell of opinion at the UN that the Security Council should be

reformed? France and Britain -- and the UK might need to give that seat

up. The question of reform of the Security Council has been on the

agenda since 1988. It never gets to the top of the agenda. A new

Security Council hat -- should have at 23 or 22 members. Any

constitutional change in the Charter of the United Nations would

depend on the United Kingdom's agreement. It remains a member of

the Security Council, so we do not see agreement being reached that

would have the effect of excluding the United Kingdom from that

position. Looking at the SNP's position, despite the talk about

Iraq and so-called legal war its -- wore as, giving that up would mean

that the rest of the UK would not be able to match what the rest of

the UK does anyway. We would be able to set our own priorities and

articulate the more on the world stage. The idea that the UK is also

acting in our interests is not the case, I do not think. In Brussels

and see that the UK line and attitude is markedly different to

her Scotland would do this. Just last week Our Home Secretary, and

she is Our Home Secretary, flirted with the idea of getting rid of

human rights. The idea that the UK it is representing, I do not think

it is a failed state, but I do think we could do it better. Do you

think it could be done better with than the United Kingdom? The report

suggests an increased role for Scotland on the international stage

but remembering -- but remaining part of the United Kingdom. I would

say that that is delusional. International relations is binary,

you are a member state or you were not. You can do all sorts of things

with devolution, but the fact is, door at the top table or you were

not. The whole point about independence is that we get to set

our priorities and articulate them in various corners of the world.

The UN needs reform, of Eastleigh, but we cannot put forward any of

these points as anything but an independent state. With Labour, or

Liberal Democrats and the SNP have increased the role of Scotland on

the world stage. Absolutely and that will continue. Scotland has

always been distinctive. But since the reforms of 1999, we have been

able to give voice to that different politics. The more that

continues and the more different we become, if we're on the right path.

This is pretty much unstoppable. How much of this we did you have

been putting that point in about increasing the role of Scotland's

voice through the prism of the UK diplomatic affairs, a kind of

federal structure when it comes to the international stage? I chaired

a commission on behalf of the Liberal Democrats which made

exactly that point. It was about the possibility of a federal

relationship but when Scotland and the rest of United Kingdom. And

also the possibility of an overall federal solution for the United

Kingdom's. But the reference to the board has, they were heavily

affected to by the introduction of quotas. That is in America. It was

all problem about cashmere goods. The reason that that was headed off

was because the United Kingdom was able to go to the European Union

and the strength of both bodies at the World Trade Organisation made

sure that Scotland did not suffer - - which it would have done much

Let's that put that 0.2 Alan Smith. How would Scotland Act on the world

stage? You always have to select your key issues but it is a very

crowded marketplace. Look at the way we have been able to lead by

example in terms of leading -- setting world leading climate

change targets. You set your priorities and build alliances. She

speaks about the EU intervening on or a half but we still have that as

the Scottish member of the European Union. That is about what our

priorities are and how we determine them and articulate them. Many

smaller countries than us around Europe. Talk to them about

independence and the just understand it. What we're going to

debate and vote on and 2014 is that we can do this better. I do not

think the UK is a failed state but we could do an awful lot better.

could do a lot better than smaller states could move more quickly and

focus on key issues? You will not be surprised to hear me say, not

for the first time, that I think we are better together, but I think it

might give us the influence of a state like Cyprus or Slovenia,

which I think detracts from the influence of the United Kingdom.

The United Kingdom has a very sophisticated network of posts and

ambassadors around the world. Scotland would not have access to

that. When you take the issue of something like Scotch whisky and

the importance of ensuring that is not subject to tariffs which make

it difficult to export, then it is that over all diplomatic influence

and a nationally which will serve us best. It will be a long time

before it reaches the peak status of Whitehall. Thank you both.

Scottish farmers have been left suffering by the atrocious weather

conditions The NFU say almost 34,000 dead sheep had to be

collected from the hills after the winter storms. This comes after the

miserable, wet summer. As Laura Maxwell reports, a �6 million aid

package has been announced by the Scottish government.

March 2012, and spring was picture- perfect. Temperatures soared to 23

Celsius. March 2013 was a different picture with blizzards bringing

down phone lines and cutting of entire communities four days.

got up to another group just further up... Its in the claim

clear of their where other victims were animals buried alive.

Thousands of young lambs and sheep were lost. We are unable to get to

most of these chic. My losses and in the region of 200 or 250 lambs.

It is huge financially. Even before the snow thought, the Government

promised have a million pounds to help remove dead livestock from the

hills, and this week �6 million worth of aid has been announced

targeted at those affected by the recent snow. We can meet in the

coming days to look at how we can help the rest of the sector. The

cost may be into tens of millions of pounds but we're still measuring

the cost of the impact of the weather. It comes at the end of

what has been a very difficult year. There was bricked in the Western

Isles, sandstorms have covered fields, and in the Borders flooding.

The weather has piled on the pressure. For most, the continual

rain has been the overriding problem ruining many crops last

year and making sewing this year very tricky. It has been totally

impossible here to so any cereals. You always hope it will be a good

year next year and that keep you going but it invariably is not. You

are always hoping for. 2013 has been at devastating year for some

of Scotland's livestock farmers and it is not looking much better for

their arable counterparts. It is a waiting game to see if it will warm

up and the rain will stop for warm enough for Scotland's farmers to

see any signs of growth. I'm now joined in the studio by Nigel

Miller, President of the National Farmers Union in Scotland. You are

a farmer yourself, what has it been a like for you? You a piece was a

very good overview of the climate and this has been that the Perfect

Storm but it has gone on for I year and it has impacted on every sector.

We did a survey in the winter and even then we knew it was bad,

probably more than 80% of farmers had 20% less fodder than usual and

when it came to winter crops, 30% had not managed to sow their usual

quota. That was not a good position to be in with money running out. We

had to renegotiate. A pretty difficult year and then going into

2013, probably the coldest March on records. They're really

overwhelming storm for a couple of days and then a difficult April as

well. 2013 will not be a good year whatever we do now. We heard in the

report the �6 million aid package from the Scottish government. How

will you ensure that is targeted at the people that need it most?

a lifeline and hopefully a bridge to help people get to the summer

weather. The figures and the last few days say that of a 700 million

has been stepped out in the UK terms, so it is not a huge amount

of money but we think if we can target those businesses and farmers

that have taken significant hits, and this is the kind of farm that

might have lost 30% of their potential production, we can pause

the spiralled downwards to give them a platform to become

stabilised. These businesses will not begin to recover until 2014.

the �6 million proportionate to what Scottish farmers contribute?

In many ways, we have a very close relationship with the land. A big

part of the economy, we underpin the biggest manufacturing sector,

food, and that generates millions of exports. It is very important

and I think the Government has recognised that importance and the

partnership the Government has with the food sector and farming shows

how important it is to maintain, not just for food security but also

to develop our industry and exports. It has been a sad and difficult

time for farmers, perhaps difficult to detach yourself emotionally, but

it is heavily subsidised. Many in this these would look on and say

you received a lot of government support, is that there? This is the

comet that comes up fairly often and the reality is the whole of

Europe supports us quite heavily. They do it in different ways and it

is about underpinning a core part of production. It is one thing that

is vital for the whole of life and we are looking at doubling food

needs over the next 20 years and that is extraordinary. Unless we

look after the basic structure, we are going to find that food

security becomes not just something we talk about but something that

actually impacts on us every day. The Scottish government is setting

up a working group with the industry. What might be discuss?

That will be on Wednesday and it will be about targeting money to

actually identify the ad is we know that the storms hit. We are also

looking at other parts of Scotland where we know there have been

significant issues. The mental health of farmers as critical as

well? I have had a lot of members on the phone and these sort of

losses are not easy to handle on the last year has not been easy.

With the financial pressure, it is not easy and one of the telling

factors is knowing that it is difficult going out and having to

work until 10pm at night and being unsure. This package is a lifeline

for people like that. Now time for the news.

Nigel Evans, the deputy Speaker of the House of Commons has said that

allegations of sexual assault against him are completely false.

He was released on bail last night after being questioned by police

for several hours. Nigel Evans was questioned until

late last night by police and emerged from his home this morning

to a make this statement. I was interviewed by the police

concerning two complaints, one of which dates back four years, made

by two people who are well known to each other and who until yesterday

I regarded as friends. The complaints are completely false and

they cannot understand why they have been made especially as I have

continued to socialise with one as recent play as last week. He was

arrested yesterday and questioned on suspicion of sexual assault. The

alleged victims are said to be men in their twenties and he was

released on bail. He was selected as MP for Ribble Valley back in

1992. He was elected as deputy Speaker in 2010. In the same year,

he came out as gay saying he did not want another light. His

colleague Philip Harman said a decision would have to be made

about his future. We should treat people as innocent until proven

guilty but it is difficult to carry out a high profile role under the

scrutiny. He says he will not be standing down and says it is

business as usual. The chairman of the BBC Trust has

rejected calls for a separate inquiry into the activities of

Stuart Hall at the BBC. He has admitted indecently assaulting 13

girls from the 1960s until the 1980s. Lord Patten said that

concerns about his behaviour could be dealt with by an inquiry already

been carried out by the BBC. Plainly, there was something about

the celebrity culture in the 1960s and 1980s which meant people turned

a blind eye to behaviour that was thoroughly unpleasant.

Syrian state television said the scientific research centre has been

hit by an Israeli missile strike. People in the area report hearing a

massive explosion over night. What more do we know about this. There

is very little hard information but what we can say fairly clearly is

that there was at least one enormous explosion on the north-

west edge of the city of Damascus. That is shown in footage posted on

the internet by activists. The question is what was actually hit.

The Syrian regime are saying it was a technical research institute.

They are saying that the different kinds of targets were hit. That

would be a bit surprising because Israel does not want to get

involved in the conflict. They want to prevent arms from being handed

over are coming through it and ran. What they're seeing off the record

is there going for rockets and missiles that there may what to

pass to his bluff. We are in the dark over what was actually hit.

There is duty showing what they say were targets there but it includes

things like chicken farms and some installations were not shown very

A former UK ambassador has told this programme that Scotland would

be welcome as a member state to the United Nations but it would have to

find its own way. Jeremy Greenstock said that the impact would be lost

to an independent Scotland that it has with the UK. It would be to

form alliances. The impact that the UK has would be lost to Scotland

but Scotland would be speaking with the voice of Scotland, it would

have the Scottish label. Impact would have to be established

through the performance of its individuals at a high

representative level. Two women died in a car crash yesterday.

They died at the scene of this car crash near Ely. One boy and one man

were also travelling by a car or and taken to hospital with serious

injuries. The boy was then taken to the Southern General hospital by

air ambulance in Glasgow. There were three games in the a SPL this

afternoon. Celtic's game is getting under way

now., Nick play host to Hibernian. It will be cloudy across western

Scotland. Rain will be light and patchy but become more persistent

two words North Argyll later. The best of the sunshine is in eastern

Scotland. Here we will see the highest temperatures, up to 18 or

19 Celsius. It is quite mild but also breezy especially along the

West coast. We will be back at 650 Thanks, Graham.

It was the revenge of the "clowns and fruitcakes", as UKIP's

political opponents had characterised them. A powerful

showing at this week's English local government elections means

the party's influence is on the increase, down south at least. But

what about the indirect impact in Scotland of UKIP's success story?

Our political correspondent Niall This one celebrated, the

Westminster mainstream were drowning their sorrows. UKIP's

success made Nigel Farage the toast of his party. It left the Tories

and Lib Dems crying into their beer. Instalment date struggle to make an

impression. -- in Scotland they have struggled to make an

impression. UKIP regularly finished last, in Edinburgh one of their

candidates did as well as this pink when. Does that mean that Scottish

people are up more pro-Europe than those down south? I don't think

there's the same antipathy to words the EU. We're not so worried about

the loss of English identity. There is an anti-European view in

Scotland but it is not one that UKIP are able to tap into. They

want independent from Europe, not independence in Europe. They say

that their numbers are at increasing its column because of

disillusionment with Alex Salmond and the SNP. He would like people

to think that we're going to govern our own country, but he is going to

move directly under the heel of Brussels. People are fed up with

the diktat from Brussels. That is coming across. You kept could do

drive the Tories of their seats in Europe in the next elections.

UKIP. We're confident that our support as well stand by us and we

are working hard to keep our supporters. We have heard about the

threat from UKIP in Scotland for a number of years, it has not

materialised. We believe we will keep her supporters by giving them

the best deals for Scotland. Despite strong results in local

elections in England and Wales on Thursday, but party seems farther

than ever to getting a foothold here in Holyrood. David Cameron's

commitment to hold a referendum on EU is widely seen as a reason to

vote for Conservatives. It is clear that David Cameron and a Tories are

running scared of UKIP. UKIP are all irrelevant thoughts to Scotland.

They are dragging Scollan to the exit door rope Europe whether we

want to go there are not, that is the Conservatives. The only

Scotland has choice is by choosing independence. Nigel Briers has an

image as an antidote to be elite of Westminster. So far that has not

won many votes from the North of the border. But scholars place in

the EU could still habits time cold. -- Scotland's.

I'm now joined here in the studio by Dr Nicola McEwen of Edinburgh

University's political department and the political commentator, Iain

McWhirter is in Edinburgh. What evidence is there to say that

Scotland is more pro-European? Scotland is not a nation of

Europhiles but there is about more it pro-European feeling here.

was recent evidence from a poll that asked exactly how it Scottish

people would vote if a referendum on the UK happened over whether to

withdraw from Europe or not. A comfortable majority favoured

staying within the European Union. That is different from polls that

take place in England. Do you agree with that? In the Sunday Herald

today UKIP say that it is a problem in that Scotland's big cities. It

is not. It is nothing like the antipathy towards immigration in

some areas south of the border. Similarly, there is not the

opposition to Europe. You do not have the transmission belts but

that sort of Euro-scepticism in Scotland because the Tories are

largely politically a relevant here and UKIP has made no progress

whatsoever. It will upset the balance if you like of the whole

debate over independence in Scotland, because the presumption

this father has always been, you heard it from Sir Menzies Campbell

earlier in this programme, that the SNP would damage staying in the EU,

Scotland might be thrown out as a consequence of a voting "yes" in

the referendum. But Scotland could find itself out of the EU by

remaining with the UK. In the 2014, a few months before the referendum,

we had the European elections. On this showing, UKIP are going to win

it. England are put at just lurching to the right. -- are

perhaps. I think UKIP will do well in the EU elections, it is their

turf. So close to the referendum it will have an impact, but it is hard

to see how it will have an impact. A lot depends on the parties that

lose as a result of that. If a Labour Party holds up then it could

make a UK election victory for them in at 2015 a little more likely.

That potentially makes the union more attractive. On the other hand,

if all of the mainstream parties do badly at UKIP's expense, the union

looks less attractive for Scottish people. If Labour do well in people

were think that the Conservatives will not be in power for too long.

Could that have an influence in the referendum? It could but I think we

will hear some quite Euro-sceptic noises from Labour in the next few

months as well. They realise they cannot afford to stand aside from

what is quite clearly a tide of opinion south of the border. Not

only in terms of Europe, also on welfare reform, immigration, things

like a gay marriage. We're seeing political culture south of the

border moving quite rapidly towards the right. We have always -- we

have already had Theresa May discussing that human rights might

need to be suspended. We already have tighter immigration policies

coming under way. And there is also this welfare reform agenda which

has not been popular north of the border. Looking at this question a

of Europe, perhaps we in Scotland ignore it slightly because we're so

focused on independence. Yes, the focus on the you low mac has so far

been about whether an independent Scotland would be entitled to join

so far. -- EU. But this does take us on two issues of substance. If

we look at the UK withdrawing from the European Union, that would

create enormous challenges for Scotland whether it was independent

or not. If you were looking at a vision of the independence that in

bed sit in the British Isles, looking at a shared labour market

and currency, that creates really big difficulties if you were

looking at being within the European Union but the rest of the

UK not being. What you make of that? Are we ignoring the European

question to her detriment? I do not think it is being a ignored. Most

of the last 12 months Europe has been the dominant issue in the

referendum campaign. That is ever since Alex Salmond suggested that

he had legal advice saying that Scotland would remain as a

succession state. That was not quite the case. That is a different

aspect, though. A different aspect from what? The debate about Alex

Salmon to and the regulation on the Europe and so on. That is ignoring

the UK debate on Europe. I am saying that that is how the you

appear debate has been conducted north of the border. Clearly the

UKIP advance is going to hold to that very significantly. As far as

the case for Scotland remaining in de EU, most Scott was should people

probably go along with that. -- most Scottish people. I do not

think there is a huge demand for Scotland to be removed. There was

an issue over fisheries which still continues to rankle in the North

East but I do not think it is anything like the issue it was

before. It is not because Scottish people are hugely enthusiastic

about Europe, it is just that you look at opinion polls only about 6%

of Scottish people see it as the most important issue in any

election. It does not have the same political resonance as you see

south of the border. We only to leave it there.

Now, a leading Scottish QC has set out a number of proposals to

radically reform the Scottish justice system. Writing in The Sun,

Derek Ogg says his blueprint is controversial but it will help

ensure fairness. He wants to see the three traditional Scottish

verdicts - guilty, not guilty, not proven - replaced with just proven

or not proven. Rationally, he says, a juror can not say "not guilty".

The most they can say is that beyond reasonable doubt a case has

been proved or not proven. There is a suggestion to cut the size of

juries from the present 15 members down to 10. The majority verdict

would be kept at 8 though. Jurors would also be allowed to access the

internet as they have no legal training and should be allowed to

research the subject matter. His biggest fear is that corroboration

could be axed. The QC says it is an The Scottish Government have given

us this response. We welcome any plans to improve the efficiency of

Scotland's Court, we are trying to create a more modern justice system

that is fair and efficient. Joining me now in the studio is

Derek Ogg QC. It is a controversial move. Is it fair for someone to

move out of court when they have had a not guilty verdict, not

proven leaves a cloud of suspicion. Not really. I really think we all

know that we're not proven. If everyone understands that that

means not guilty, been everybody does understand that if they walk

out of the Crown Prosecution and the Crown Prosecution has not

maintained their case against them, there are not guilty. The changing

the meaning of these verdicts is that explains better to a jury what

they're there to do. There are not there to look into somebody's heart

or conscience, they cannot do that. There are not there to remember

what happened, they were not there. But the at their to say that the

case that has been brought in front of them, I be satisfied?

Prosecutors are being told to prove that beyond reasonable doubt. Has

that been done? It easy for it proved orators not proved. -- it is

either a proved or it is not proved. What about lowering the number of

Jura as? He would save �0.5 million simply in administrative costs to

start with. A smaller number gives that number more time to talk about

issues. It simply is a more manageable number. I would say in

Scotland, if you go to the beginning of the jury system around

the 12th century. There was no fixed number of forgeries then. It

was always just locals who were a Why are you making these comments

now do? The reason I make the comments now it is because of a

number of things combining together. The idea we can do away with

corroboration which is the biggest safeguard in Scots law. There is no

duty in minor cases but still in serious cases. The corroboration

issue is there. The case with Chris Huhne where the dewy word this

charged because the asked too many questions which the lawyer said

where rather silly questions. They were mocked for wanting to make

inquiry. The jury system is valuable and important to us but we

want to bring it up to date and modernise it. That includes having

access to the Internet, even a website dedicated to the particular

trial they are involved in, and what are some of the consequences

of Scots law and self defence and provocation and acting together

with others. Briefly, do you have support from legal colleagues?

There is an appetite amongst the legal profession for reform.

Now in a moment, we'll be discussing what's making news in

politics at Holyrood this week and next, but first, let's take a look

back at the Week in 60 seconds. Three soldiers from the Royal

Regiment of Scotland where killed in Afghanistan went a vehicle was

hit by a roadside bomb. Westminster's Foreign Affairs

Committee say the UK's international status would suffer

if Scotland became independent. Scotland's most senior prosecutor

criticised the UK Business Secretary Vince Cable after he

called for a quick decision on the prosecution of former bosses are at

the Royal Bank of Scotland. The Scotch Whisky Association lost

a legal challenge against government plans to introduce

minimum unit price things. decision to appeal should not come

up as a surprise. They should respect the democratic decision of

these Scottish Parliament. Douglas Alexander said Scotland

needs to find ways to disagree with it being disagreeable ahead of the

independence referendum. That was the week that was. Let's

now focus on the big stories and check out the week ahead.

This week we have Peter McMahon from the Scotsman and the

journalist and author Kirsty Scott. Thank you for joining us. Updike

issue this week has been the on line rolling story after Susan

Carmen was heavily criticised online. A story here about

nationalism and fascism in Scotland on Sunday. For this is a very

worrying that element. To have a debate in Scotland about

independence and the constitutional future, it has to be conducted in a

way that allows people to express strong views but where they are not

vilified on either side. The point was made by Fiona Hyslop that if

you mention Scotland on Sunday, up a column today praises Douglas

Alexander and cost are exactly the same thing. We have to have that

and we have to have a civilised debate and cannot have trolling on

end the side. Both sides are keen to point out that their victims are

of this kind of behaviour. Most it is not fair to say that most of it

is coming from the nationalist side. Nicholas Budgen said she had death

threats so it is getting to a worrying level. It has always been

there but it has built. It was a pretty bad couple of weeks for the

Yes campaign in terms of currency and foreign affairs. A lot of

issues they were on the back but about and he tends to see then that

when people are just actually reporting, the end up having

horrendous abuse targeted at them. They are just doing their jobs and

back-up lot columns today are saying, line in the sand, this has

to stop now. This kind of French is not doing anyone any favours.

you see this behaviour stopping? I'd like to think it will. --

fringe. You would hope perhaps that when senior figures in the SNP and

the Labour Party speak out about it that those who are doing this might

listen. What we have to do is focus on doing our jobs as journalists,

presenting these stories as they come along. We should be analysing

policies. We have to try and make sure it is a proper debate. That

does not mean that people cannot have very strongly held views but

we must be able to express them without these kinds of people

intimidating them. We have always prided ourselves on being a

tolerant nation. It is important to point out that some people within

the SNP are getting similar abuse. Andrew Wilson is getting some

hassle on line as a nationalist for complementing Douglas Alexander!

Let's move on to the issue of UK it. Nigel Farage was in the Sunday

Herald today with a clown's red nose. It is possibly been

overstated. The media are very caught up in it but two-thirds of

people who could what did not vote. It was a resounding success for

them as they are but in terms of Scotland, we do not think they will

have the same impact. The say they are now heading north and hoping to

set up in cities up here. England at moves to the right, what

effect could that have on the independence referendum? I thought

she made a very interesting point which is what about if you have

independence where Scotland is tied to the pound Stirling currency and

then the UK opts out of the EU? Where does that leave Scotland or

any combination of Scotland voting for independence and then there is

a blot on the EU. That is a huge extra dimension and I am not quite

sure where they then stand on it in the SNP. Where they would stand on

the pounds Stirling if the UK was moving out of Europe. The SNP may

see it as quite handy to see that England is lurching to the right

but why then tie yourself into a shared currency? It raises as many

questions as answer has. What about the UKIP themselves making some

progress in Scotland? I do not think it is as big an issue and

when you look at where they did well in England it is particular ad

is where they have been talking of immigration. You cannot ignore

ordinary people's views that they have worries about it. I do not

think Scots necessarily are that different, it is just not as bigger

issue here. Up are Scots more pro- European than their English may be

as? I think so and we always have been and 10 to have an