Browse content similar to 12/01/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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of political pundits, Helen Lewis, Jan and Ganesh and Nick Watt. They | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
will be tweeting faster than France or long scoots through Paris. Nick | :01:45. | :01:51. | |
Clegg sticks to his New Year resolution to sock it to the Tories, | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
the is how he described Tory plans for another 12 billion of cuts on | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
welfare after the next election. You cannot say, as the Conservatives | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
are, that we are all in it together and then say that the welfare will | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
not make any additional contributions from their taxes if | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
there is a Conservative government after 2015 in the ongoing effort to | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
balance the books. We are not even going to ask that very wealthy | :02:16. | :02:23. | |
people who have retired who have benefits, paid for by the | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
hard-pressed taxpayers, will make a sacrifice. The Conservatives appear | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
to be saying only the working age pork will be asked to make | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
additional sacrifices to fill the remaining buckle in the public | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
finances. Nick Legg eating up on the Tories | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
a, happens almost every day. I understand it is called aggressive | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
differentiation. Will it work for them? It has not for the past two | :02:53. | :02:59. | |
years. This began around the time of the AV referendum campaign, that is | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
what poisoned the relations between the parties. They have been trying | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
to differentiation since then, they are still at barely 10% in the | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
polls, Nick Clegg's personal ratings are horrendous, so I doubt they will | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
do much before the next election. It is interesting it has been combined | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
with aggressive flirtation with Ed Balls and the Labour Party. There | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
was always going to be some sort of rapprochement between them and the | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
Labour Party, it is in the Labour Party's interests, and it is intent | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
macro's interests, not to be defined as somebody who can only do deals | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
with the centre-right. A colleague of yours, Helen, told me there was | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
more talk behind closed doors in the Labour Party high command, they have | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
to think about winning the election in terms of being the largest party, | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
but not necessarily an overall majority. There is a feeling it was | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
foolish before the last election not to have any thought about what a | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
coalition might be, but the language has changed. Ed Miliband had said, I | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
cannot deal with this man, but now, I have to be prismatic, it is about | :04:11. | :04:17. | |
principles. Even Ed Balls. Nick Clegg had specifically said that Ed | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
Balls was the man in politics that he hated. He said that was just a | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
joke. Of course, it is about principles, not people! When Ed | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
Balls said those nice things about Nick Clegg, he said, I understood | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
the need to get a credible deficit reduction programme, although he | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
said Nick Clegg went too far. The thing about Nick Clegg, he feels | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
liberated, he bears the wounds from the early days of the coalition, and | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
maybe those winds will haunt him all the way to the general election. But | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
he feels liberated, he says, we will be the restraining influence on both | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
the Conservatives, who cannot insure that the recovery is fair, and the | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
Labour Party, that do not have economic red ability. He feels | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
relaxed, and that is why he is attacking the Tories and appearing | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
pretty relaxed. He could also be falling into a trap. The Tories | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
think what they suggesting on welfare cuts is possible. The more | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
he attacks it, the more Tories will say, if you gave us an overall | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
majority, he is the one it. He keeps taking these ostensibly on popular | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
positions and it only makes sense when you talk to them behind the | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
scenes, they are going after a tiny slice of the electorate, 20%, who | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
are open to the idea of voting Lib Dem, and their views are a bit more | :05:43. | :05:49. | |
left liberal than the bulk of the public. There is a perverse logic in | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
them aggressively targeting that section of voters. In the end, ten | :05:55. | :06:01. | |
macro's problem, if you do not like what this coalition has been doing, | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
you will not vote for somebody who was part of it, you will vote for | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
the Labour Party. The Tories are too nasty, Labour are to spendthrift, | :06:12. | :06:18. | |
Lib Dem, a quarter of their vote has gone to Labour, and that is what | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
could hand the largest party to Labour. That small number of voters, | :06:22. | :06:28. | |
soft Tory voters, the problem for the Liberal Democrats is, if you | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
fight, as they did, three general elections to the left of the Labour | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
Party, and at the end of the third, you find yourself in Colour Vision | :06:37. | :06:39. | |
with the Conservatives, you have a problem. | :06:40. | :06:47. | |
Chris Grayling is a busy man, he has had to deal with aid riot at HM | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
Prison Oakwood, barristers on strike and unhappy probation officers | :06:55. | :06:55. | |
taking industrial action. Prison works. It ensures that we are | :06:56. | :07:12. | |
protected from murderers, muggers and rapists. It makes many who are | :07:13. | :07:22. | |
tempted to commit crime think twice. Traditional Tory policy on criminal | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
justice and prisons has been tough talking and tough dealing. Not only | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
have they tended to think what they are offering is right, but have had | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
the feeling, you thinking what they thinking. But nearly two decades | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
after Michael Howard's message, his party, in Colour Vision government, | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
is finding prison has to work like everything else within today's | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
financial realities. The Justice Secretary for two years after the | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
election had previous in this field. Ken Clarke. Early on, he signalled a | :07:55. | :08:01. | |
change of direction. Just binding up more and more people for longer | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
without actively seeking to change them is, in my opinion, what you | :08:08. | :08:17. | |
would expect of Victorian England. The key to keeping people out of | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
prison now, it seems, is giving them in a job, on release. Ironically, | :08:21. | :08:27. | |
Ken Clarke was released from his job 15 months ago and replaced by Chris | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
Grayling. But here, within HM Prison Liverpool, Timpson has been working | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
since 2009 with chosen offenders to offer training and the chance of a | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
job. Before you ask, they do not teach them keep cutting in a | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
category B prison. The Academy is deliberately meant to look like a | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
company store, not a prison. It helps. You forget where you are at | :08:50. | :08:56. | |
times, it feels weird, going back to a wing at the end of the day. It is | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
different. A different atmosphere. That is why people like it. Timpson | :09:01. | :09:07. | |
have six academies in prisons, training prisoners inside, and | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
outside they offer jobs to ex-offenders, who make up 8% of | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
their staff. It has been hard work persuading some governors that such | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
cooperation can work. I have seen a dramatic change positively, working | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
with prisoners, particularly in the last five years. They understand now | :09:26. | :09:34. | |
what business's expectation is. Timpson do not just employ | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
offenders, but as one ex-prisoner released in February and now | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
managing his own store says, the point is many others will not employ | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
offenders at all. From what I have experienced, on one hand, you have | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
somebody with a criminal conviction, on the other, somebody who does not | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
have one, so it is a case of favouring those who have a clean | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
record. Anybody with a criminal conviction is passed to one side and | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
overlooked. That, amongst myriad other changes to prison and how we | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
deal with prisoners, is on the desk of the man at the top. Ever since | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
Chris Grayling became Secretary of State for Justice, he has wanted to | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
signal a change of direction of policy, and he is in a hurry to make | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
radical reforms across the board, from size and types of prisons to | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
probation services, reoffending rates, legal aid services, and there | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
has been opposition to that from groups who do not agree with him. | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
But what might actually shackle him is none of that. It is the fact that | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
he is in government with a party that does not always agree with him, | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
he has to abide by the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights, | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
and in those famous words, there is no money left. We would like to go | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
further and faster. I would like him too, but we are where we are. If the | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
Liberal Democrats want to be wiped out at the next election based on | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
what they believe, that is fair enough. We accept there has to be | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
savings, but there are areas where we feel that there is ideological | :11:06. | :11:15. | |
driven policy-making going on, and privatising may not save any money | :11:16. | :11:18. | |
at all, and so does not make any sense. The question is, we'll all of | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
that means some of Chris Grayling's reforms need closer inspection? | :11:25. | :11:37. | |
Chris Grayling joins me now. Welcome. We have a lot to cover. If | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
you get your way, your own personal way, will be next Tory manifesto | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
promise to withdraw from the European Convention of human | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
rights? It will contain a promise for radical changes. We have to | :11:54. | :12:00. | |
curtail the role of the European court here, replace our human rights | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
act from the late 1990s, make our Supreme Court our Supreme Court, | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
they can be no question of decisions over riding it elsewhere, and we | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
have to have a situation where our laws contain a balance of rights and | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
responsibilities. People talk about knowing their rights, but they do | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
not accept they have responsible it is. This is what you said last | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
September, I want to see our Supreme Court being supreme again... That is | :12:30. | :12:38. | |
clear, but let's be honest, the Supreme Court cannot be supreme as | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
long as its decisions can be referred to the European Court in | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
Strasbourg. There is clearly an issue, that was raised recency -- | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
recently. We have been working on a detailed reform plan, we will | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
publish that in the not too distant future. What we will set out is a | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
direction of travel for a new Conservative government that will | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
mean wholesale change in this area. You already tried to reform the | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
European Court, who had this declaration in 2012, do you accept | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
that the reform is off the table? There is still a process of reform, | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
but it is not going fast enough and not delivering the kind of change we | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
need. That is why we will bring forward a package that for the | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
different from that and will set a different direction of travel. We | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
are clear across the coalition, we have a different view from our | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
colleagues. You cannot be half pregnant on this, either our | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
decisions from our Supreme Court are subject to the European Cup or not, | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
in which case, we are not part of the European court. I hope you will | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
see from our proposals we have come up with a sensible strategy that | :13:53. | :13:54. | |
deals with this issue once and for all. Can we be part of the | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
Strasbourg court and yet our Supreme Court be supreme? That is by point, | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
we have to curtail the role of the court in the UK. I am clear that is | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
what we will seek to do. It is what we will do for this country. But | :14:11. | :14:17. | |
how? I am not going to announce the package of policies today, but we | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
will go into the next election with a clear strategy that will curtail | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
the role of the European Court of Human Rights in the UK. The | :14:25. | :14:31. | |
decisions have to be taken in Parliament in this country. Are you | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
sure that you have got your own side on this? Look at what the Attorney | :14:36. | :14:37. | |
General says. I would be asking Strasberg a | :14:38. | :15:03. | |
different question to that. If the best in class, he is saying is | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
enough is enough, actually somebody in Strasberg should be asking if | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
this has gone the way it should have done. I would love to see wholesale | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
reform in the court tomorrow, I'm not sure it is going to happen which | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
is why we are going to the election with a clear plan for this country. | :15:21. | :15:28. | |
Would you want that to be a red line in any coalition agreement? My | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
mission is to win the next election with a majority. But you have to say | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
where your red lines would be. We have been very clear it is an area | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
where we don't agree as parties, but in my view the public in this | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
country are overwhelmingly behind the Conservative party. 95 | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
Conservative MPs have written to the Prime Minister, demanding he gives | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
the House of Commons the authority to veto any aspect of European Union | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
law. Are you one of the people who wanted to sign that letter but you | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
couldn't because you are minister? I haven't been asked to sign the | :16:08. | :16:13. | |
letter. We need a red card system for European law. I'm not convinced | :16:14. | :16:24. | |
my colleagues... I don't think it is realistic to have a situation where | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
one parliament can veto laws across the European Union. I understand the | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
concerns of my colleagues, but when we set out to renegotiate our | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
membership, we have got to deliver renegotiation and deliver a system | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
which is viable, and I'm not convinced we can have a situation | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
where one Parliament can prevent laws across the whole European | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
Union. So you wouldn't have signed this letter? I'm not sure it is the | :16:54. | :17:01. | |
right approach. I support the system I just talked about. Iain Duncan | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
Smith has suggested EU migrants coming to work in this country | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
should have to wait for two years before they qualify for welfare | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
benefits, do you agree? Yes, I think there should be an assumption that | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
before you can move from one country to another, before you can start to | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
take back from that country's social welfare system, you should have made | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
a contribution to it. I spent two and a half years working in Brussels | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
trying to get the European Commission to accept the need for | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
change. There is a groundswell of opinion out there which is behind | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
Iain Duncan Smith in what he is saying. I think we should push for a | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
clear system that says people should be able to move from one country to | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
get a job, but to move to another country to live off the state is not | :17:53. | :18:00. | |
acceptable. You are planning a new 2000 capacity mega prison and other | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
smaller presence which will be run by private firms. After what has | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
happened with G4S, why would you do that? No decision has been made | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
about whether it will be public or private. What do you think it will | :18:18. | :18:24. | |
be? I'm not sure yet. There is no clear correlation over public and | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
private prisons and whether there are problems or otherwise. Oakwood | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
is in its early stages, it has had teething problems at the start, but | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
the rate of disturbance there is only typical for an average prison | :18:40. | :18:47. | |
of its category. If you take an example of Parc prison in Wales, a | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
big private run prison, run by G4S, when it was first launched under the | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
last government it had teething problems of the same kind as Oakwood | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
and is now regarded as one of the best performing prisons. Why would | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
you give it to a private company then? We have only just got planning | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
permission for the so we will not be thinking about this for another few | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
years. Some of the companies who run prisons are under investigation with | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
dreadful track records. In the case of G4S, what we have experienced is | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
acceptable and they have not been able to go ahead with a number of | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
contracts they might have otherwise got. They are having to prove to the | :19:35. | :19:41. | |
Government they are fit to win contracts from the Government again. | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
They are having to pay compensation to the Government and the taxpayer. | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
What has happened is unacceptable. So why would you give them a 2000 | :19:52. | :19:58. | |
capacity mega prison? Or anyone like them? It cannot be said that every | :19:59. | :20:08. | |
private company is bad. In addition to problems at Oakwood, you are | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
quite unique now in your position that you have managed to get the | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
barristers out on strike the first time since history began. What | :20:17. | :20:23. | |
happens if the bar refuses to do work at your new rates of legal aid | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
and the courts grind to a halt? I don't believe that will happen. When | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
the barristers came out on strike, three quarters of Crown Courts were | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
operating normally, 95% of magistrates courts were operating | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
normally. We are having to take difficult decisions across | :20:45. | :20:47. | |
government, I have no desire to cut back lately but we are spending over | :20:48. | :20:49. | |
?2 billion on legal aid at the back lately but we are spending over | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
moment at a time when budgets are becoming tougher. You issued | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
misleading figures about criminal barristers, you said that 25% of | :21:01. | :21:07. | |
them earn over ?100,000 per year but that is their turnover, including | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
VAT. 33% of that money goes on their expenses, they have to pay for their | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
own pensions and insurance. People are not getting wealthy out of doing | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
this work. I don't publish figures, our statisticians do, with caveats | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
in place explaining the situation. Where you have high-cost cases, | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
where we have taken the most difficult decisions, we have tried | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
hard in taking difficult decisions to focus the impact higher up the | :21:39. | :21:48. | |
income scale. But do you accept their take-home pay is not 100,000? | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
I accept they have to take out other costs, although some things like | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
travelling to the court, you and I and everyone else has to pay for | :21:59. | :22:10. | |
travelling to work. That is net of VAT. We have had a variety of | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
figures published, some are and some are not. Let's be clear, the gross | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
figures for fees from legal payments include 20% VAT. On a week when even | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
a cabinet minister can be fitted up by the police, don't we all need | :22:27. | :22:37. | |
well-financed legal aid? There is no chance that as a result | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
well-financed legal aid? There is no changes people will end up in court | :22:41. | :22:52. | |
unable to defend themselves. We have said in exceptional circumstances, | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
if you haven't got any money to pay, we will support you, but there is no | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
question of anyone ended up in court, facing a criminal charge, | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
where they haven't got a lawyer to defend them. Let's look at how so | :23:05. | :23:10. | |
many dangerous criminals have managed to avoid jail. Here are the | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
figures for 2012. Half the people for sexual assault found guilty, not | :23:17. | :23:25. | |
jailed. I thought you were meant to be tough on crime? Those figures | :23:26. | :23:32. | |
predate my time, but since 2010 the number of those people going to jail | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
has been increasing steadily. If you put the figures for 2010 on there, | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
you would see a significant change. We will never be in a position where | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
everybody who commits violence will end up in jail. The courts will | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
often decided to his more appropriate to give a community | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
sentence, but the trend is towards longer sentences and more people | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
going to jail. That maybe but it is even quite hard to get sent to jail | :24:02. | :24:08. | |
if you do these things a lot, again and again. In 2012 one criminal | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
avoided being sent to jail despite having more than 300 offences to his | :24:14. | :24:23. | |
name. 36,000 avoided going to jail despite 15 previous offences. That | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
is why we are taking steps to toughen up the system. Last autumn | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
we scrapped repeat cautions. You could find people getting dozens. As | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
of last autumn, we have scrapped repeat cautions. If you commit the | :24:39. | :24:41. | |
same offence twice within a two-year repeat cautions. If you commit the | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
period you will go to court. You still might end up not going to | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
jail. More and more people are going to jail. I cannot just magic another | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
34,000 prison places. You haven't got room to put bad people in jail? | :24:59. | :25:05. | |
The courts will take the decisions, and it is for them to take the | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
decisions and not me, that two men in a bar fight do not merit a jail | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
sentence. These figures contain a huge amount of offences from the | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
most minor of offences to the most despicable. Something is wrong if | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
you can commit 300 offences and still not end up in jail. That's | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
right, and we are taking steps so this cannot happen any more. Nick | :25:32. | :25:38. | |
Clegg said this morning you are going to make 12 billion of welfare | :25:39. | :25:46. | |
cuts on the back of this, he is right, isn't he? People on the | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
lowest incomes are often not paying tax at all, the rich... But these | :25:51. | :25:59. | |
cuts will fall disproportionately on average earners, correct? Let's look | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
at the proposal to limit housing benefit for under 25s. Until today, | :26:05. | :26:12. | |
after people have left school or college, the live for a time with | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
their parents. For some, that is not possible and we will have to take | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
that into account, but we have said there is a strong case for saying | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
you will not get housing benefit until you are some years down the | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
road and have properly established yourselves in work. And by | :26:32. | :26:34. | |
definition these people are on lower than average salaries. Give me a | :26:35. | :26:42. | |
case in which those on the higher tax band will contribute to the | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
cuts. We have already put in place tax changes so that the highest tax | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
rate is already higher than it was in every year of the last | :26:53. | :27:00. | |
government. The amount of tax... There is no more expected of the | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
rich. We will clearly look at future policy and work out how best to | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
distribute the tax burden in this country and it is not for me to | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
second-guess George Osborne's future plans, but we need to look at for | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
example housing benefit for the under 25s. Is it right for those who | :27:22. | :27:27. | |
are not working for the state to provide accommodation for them? | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
Thank you for being with us. All three major parties at | :27:34. | :27:35. | |
Westminster agree there's an urgent need to build more homes for | :27:36. | :27:38. | |
Britain's growing population. But how they get built, and where, looks | :27:39. | :27:41. | |
set to become a major battle ground in the run-up to the next general | :27:42. | :27:43. | |
election. Although 16% more house-builds were | :27:44. | :27:46. | |
started in 2012/13 than the previous year, the number actually completed | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
fell by 8% - the lowest level in peacetime since 1920. The Office for | :27:50. | :27:56. | |
National Statistics estimates that between now and 2021 we should | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
expect 220,000 new households to be created every year. At his party's | :28:00. | :28:06. | |
conference last autumn, Ed Miliband promised a Labour government would | :28:07. | :28:13. | |
massively increase house-building. I will have a clear aim but by the end | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
of the parliament, Britain will be building 200,000 homes per year, | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
more than at any time for a generation. That is how we make | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
Britain better than this. The Labour leader also says he'd give urban | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
councils a "right to grow" so rural neighbours can't block expansion and | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
force developers with unused land to use it or lose it. The Government | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
has been pursuing its own ideas, including loan guarantees for | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
developers and a new homes bonus to boost new house-building. But David | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
Cameron could have trouble keeping his supporters on side - this week | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
the senior backbencher Nadhim Zahawi criticised planning reforms for | :28:49. | :28:50. | |
causing "physical harm" to the countryside. Nick Clegg meanwhile | :28:51. | :28:57. | |
prefers a radical solution - brand new garden cities in the south east | :28:58. | :29:12. | |
of England. In a speech tomorrow, Labour's shadow housing minister | :29:13. | :29:15. | |
Emma Reynolds will give more details of how Labour would boost | :29:16. | :29:17. | |
house-building, and she joins me now. It is not the politicians to | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
blame, it is the lack of house-builders? We want a vibrant | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
building industry, and at the moment that industry is dominated by big | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
house-builders. I want to see a more diverse and competitive industry, | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
where self build plays a greater role. In France over 60% of new | :29:37. | :29:44. | |
homes are built by self builders, but small builders build more homes | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
as well. 25 years ago they were building two thirds of new homes, | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
now they are not building even a third of new homes. That's because | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
land policies have been so restrictive that it is only the big | :29:58. | :30:00. | |
companies who can afford to buy the land, so little land is being | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
released for house building. I agree, there are some fundamental | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
structural problems with the land market and that is why we have said | :30:11. | :30:13. | |
there doesn't just need to be tinkering around the edges, there | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
needs to be real reforms to make sure that small builders and self | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
build and custom-built have access to land. They are saying they have | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
problems with access to land and finance. At the end of the day it | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
will not be self, small builders who reach your target, it will be big | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
builders. I think it is pretty shameful that in Western Europe the | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
new houses built in the UK are smaller than our neighbours. But | :30:44. | :30:52. | |
isn't not the land problem? France is 2.8 times bigger in land mass and | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
we are and that is not a problem for them. There is a perception we are | :30:57. | :31:04. | |
going to build on the countryside, but not even 10% is on the | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
countryside. There is enough for us to have our golf courses. There is | :31:11. | :31:18. | |
enough other land for us to build on that is not golf courses. The | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
planning minister has said he wants to build our National Parks, I am | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
not suggesting that. The single biggest land border is the public | :31:27. | :31:33. | |
sector. It is not. There are great opportunities for releasing public | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
land, that is why I have been asking the government, they say they are | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
going to release and of public land for tens of thousands of new homes | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
to be built, but they say they are not monitoring how many houses are | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
being built on the site. When your leader says to landowners, housing | :31:51. | :31:57. | |
development owners, either use the land or lose it, in what way will | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
they lose it? Will you confiscated? This is about strengthening the hand | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
of local authorities, and they say to us that in some cases, | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
house-builders are sitting on land. In those cases, we would give the | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
power to local authorities to escalate fees. This would be the | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
compulsory purchase orders, a matter of last resort, and you would hope | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
that by strengthening the hand of local authorities, you could get the | :32:29. | :32:35. | |
house-builders to start building the homes that people want. Would you | :32:36. | :32:37. | |
compulsory purchase it? We would compulsory purchase it? We would | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
give the local authority as a last resort, after escalating the fees, | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
the possibility and flexible it is to use the compulsory purchase | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
orders to sell the land on to a house builder who wants to build | :32:53. | :32:53. | |
orders to sell the land on to a houses that we need. Can you name | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
one report that has come back in recent years that shows that | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
hoarding of land by house-builders is a major problem? The IMF, the | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
Conservative mayor of London and the Local Government Association are | :33:08. | :33:09. | |
telling us that there is a problem with land hoarding. Therefore, we | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
have said, where there is land with planning permission, and if plots | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
are being sat on... Boris Johnson says there are 180,000 plots in | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
London being sat on. We need to make sure the house-builders are building | :33:25. | :33:32. | |
the homes that young families need. They get planning permission and | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
sell it on to the developer. There is a whole degree of complicity, but | :33:36. | :33:38. | |
there is another problem before that. That is around transparency | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
about land options. There is agricultural land that | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
house-builders have land options on, and we do not know where that is. | :33:48. | :33:54. | |
Where there is a need for housing, and the biggest demand is in the | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
south-east of England, that is where many local authorities are most | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
reluctant to do it, will you in central government | :34:06. | :43:36. | |
reluctant to do it, will you in to the London exchequer. I do not | :43:37. | :43:38. | |
think anybody seriously believe George Osborne would have any | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
intention of handing it back to Scotland to finance the childcare | :43:44. | :43:50. | |
programme. You will maintain free personal care and prescriptions, | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
increase tax credits, these are a few of the things you have | :43:56. | :43:57. | |
promised, the money will have to go a long way? Be ?100 million as an | :43:58. | :44:05. | |
estimate of the initial costs of childcare which is covered by the | :44:06. | :44:09. | |
other changes we make in the White Paper. You seem to suggest there is | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
a long delay in these matters. Changes in the female participation | :44:16. | :44:18. | |
in the labour market can occur quickly. Over the last year there | :44:19. | :44:28. | |
has been a 3.5% rise. These changes can take place very quickly but our | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
point is that we will only get to that level of participation in the | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
Labour Party, which Sweden has already achieved, if we have the | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
childcare policies to back it up. This transformation we talk about in | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
an independent Scotland would keep that environment. It is a | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
tremendously positive discussion to have about the economic gain of | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
progressive policies. It is in terms of how you reach it with finance. If | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
the number of women working rose by 2% we would see a rise of ?200 | :45:06. | :45:11. | |
million in income tax receipts, what salary is that based on? That model | :45:12. | :45:18. | |
talks about the benefits to the economy but you will also find in | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
the paper published today that for an average wage then the benefit in | :45:23. | :45:28. | |
terms not just of income tax but the range of taxes people in employment | :45:29. | :45:35. | |
peak, is very substantial indeed, about ?7,000. That is income tax, | :45:36. | :45:43. | |
national insurance, tax macro -- VAT, all the things people who are | :45:44. | :45:50. | |
not work not pay. If you take into account part-time as well as | :45:51. | :45:53. | |
full-time working the average gross salary falls to somewhere in the | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
region of ?17,000. There is a shortfall question --? . Their | :45:59. | :46:09. | |
quality in the Scottish economy works through a 6% charge. You are | :46:10. | :46:19. | |
basing that on an average wage of ?26,000, many do not earn that. Let | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
me complete the sentence. The first figure, the ?700 million we | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
published that paper today so that everyone can read and understand. | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
The second is an illustration that people don't just pay income tax but | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
national insurance and the range of other things. The ?700 million come | :46:40. | :46:46. | |
from the equilibria model of the Scottish economy. That is what | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
happens. With evidence for the last year, not a crystal ball or nickel | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
and be a model but what has actually happened in the Scottish economy, | :46:57. | :47:03. | |
60,000 more women are working, the vast majority of these extra jobs | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
are full-time, these changes can take place in a short period of | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
time. As soon as people are working they start paying tax, everybody | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
knows that. To reach that 700 million figure 104,000 extra women | :47:18. | :47:23. | |
would need to join the workforce, we did these jobs? 60,000 women have | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
joined the workforce, are now working from the year to October | :47:30. | :47:37. | |
last year. Which jobs well the game? 40 start, we showed the full extent | :47:38. | :47:44. | |
of the childcare policies, 30,000 people, women and workers will be | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
required to fully extend that policy but there is also the general effect | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
through the economy of having that extra participation. If 60,000 more | :47:55. | :48:00. | |
women are working in a year, in employment, not just joining the | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
labour force, it is not unreasonable to suggest that over the period of | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
five years we will have 100,000. 60,000 in void in one single view | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
has already happened so 100,000 good be done in five years. The second | :48:15. | :48:21. | |
part of the calculation published today is equally important. It is | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
now beyond doubt that if Scotland has its own exchequer we get the | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
benefits of that economic boost. The problem now, under devilish and that | :48:30. | :48:38. | |
fixed Budget arrangement, you cannot finance such a policy which is why | :48:39. | :48:41. | |
the Labour Party ended up with such a political disaster voting against | :48:42. | :48:48. | |
school meals. That is the difference between independence on the one hand | :48:49. | :48:54. | |
and revolution on the other. We have academics in support of the union | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
today. The say you cannot keep charging students from elsewhere in | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
the UK who keep studying here in the event of independence. Do you have | :49:04. | :49:09. | |
legal advice on this? This was set out in page 200 of the White Paper. | :49:10. | :49:18. | |
Everything in that is based on the advice we receive. Universities | :49:19. | :49:20. | |
Scotland published last April from Anderson Strathearn how you could go | :49:21. | :49:29. | |
around this providing an objective justification for the policy. | :49:30. | :49:32. | |
Everything in the White Paper is consistent with the advice we | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
received. We have advice from an independent body and it seems | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
strange that the better together campaign were not aware of that or | :49:42. | :49:48. | |
did not want to mention it. Just to be clear, the River President as | :49:49. | :49:51. | |
regards legal advice and the European Union, you have legal | :49:52. | :49:57. | |
advice on this specific issue? You do not confirm legal advice or the | :49:58. | :50:04. | |
existence of legal advice. Why is this issue different? Can I just | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
point out, you do not confirm the detail of legal advice or the | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
existence of legal advice but what you can say is that the White Paper | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
is consistent with any advice we received. That is what all | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
governments see. I am also pointing out it is already published from | :50:23. | :50:28. | |
universities Scotland advice that was published last year which sets | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
out resident requirement which could be done. The White Paper examines | :50:33. | :50:40. | |
this in page 200. That is the advantage of having published the | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
White Paper on independence. Very many thousands of people in Scotland | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
have taken the opportunity of reading it. Perhaps some of the | :50:49. | :50:54. | |
Better Together campaign might do that themselves. You've campaigned | :50:55. | :51:06. | |
for this issue but quite some time. I congratulate the Scottish | :51:07. | :51:08. | |
Government on what they've achieved so far. I do, and I welcome what | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
they've done this week will stop Alex Salmond and I have not always | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
seen eye to eye on this issue and I pleased that he is changed his mind. | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
Often, politicians get criticised when they conduct this kind of | :51:23. | :51:28. | |
change, but this is him making the right decision, so I want to thank | :51:29. | :51:30. | |
him for the extra childcare we will see. Secondly, there has been a big | :51:31. | :51:36. | |
focus on getting people back to work will stop the reason we want people | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
to do this is to give people the best start in life. Experts have | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
told us that if you can invest before the age of three in a child's | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
development, you can change their life chances for the rest of their | :51:52. | :51:58. | |
life. To extend this to more children as the government wants to | :51:59. | :52:01. | |
do, they say they need independence because they need the revenue | :52:02. | :52:05. | |
generated from taxation will stop a point out in this paper today that | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
under the act, women going into the labour market, the taxation would | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
not bow to them. 80% would go to Westminster. I welcome the detail of | :52:15. | :52:21. | |
what has been said today will stop it is a case for investing in | :52:22. | :52:28. | |
childcare and education. He set out the economics of spend to save and | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
that is something I welcome in this area. Actually, Scotland is lagging | :52:33. | :52:42. | |
behind England. He said it is lagging behind because he does not | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
have the finances to invest. Where will the money come from? It is not | :52:47. | :52:54. | |
about power, it is about money. That is why England is ahead with | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
two-year-old and three and four-year-olds. Alex Salmond has the | :52:59. | :53:04. | |
money, he has the investment he could make, but he has fallen | :53:05. | :53:11. | |
behind. So he has ?700 million that he is secreting somewhere? He is | :53:12. | :53:17. | |
saying the rest of the UK is travelling in a different direction | :53:18. | :53:22. | |
to Scotland. That is not a dividing line for the independence movement | :53:23. | :53:25. | |
though. We are travelling in the same direction. I actually think all | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
parties will be arguing for more childcare at the next action. If | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
that was not the case, you might have an didn't, but he doesn't. We | :53:36. | :53:41. | |
can all advance further. There is not a dividing line for | :53:42. | :53:48. | |
independence. We've actually invested more. Look at the evidence. | :53:49. | :53:59. | |
We don't agree with Lord Osborne 's approach -- George Osborne 's | :54:00. | :54:06. | |
approach. What we are are doing is the evidence so far is that, even in | :54:07. | :54:09. | |
top times, the Coalition Government has investigated -- has invested in | :54:10. | :54:16. | |
childcare. The evidence in Scotland is that it is lagging behind. We are | :54:17. | :54:23. | |
travelling in the same direction and that is a good ring. But in terms of | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
welfare reform generally, would you support more? I think Nick Clegg has | :54:30. | :54:36. | |
been clear on this. If you are going to more expenditure, we should start | :54:37. | :54:42. | |
at the top, not the bottom. We need to get the deficit under control and | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
we are getting big progress. So the benefit cuts have gone as far as | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
they should, as far you hope concerned? There will be more | :54:52. | :54:58. | |
changes, but you should start at the top, not the bottom. What with the | :54:59. | :55:05. | |
bedroom tax doing? Well, all the parties are in favour of change, but | :55:06. | :55:12. | |
when you do introduce reforms like this, you need to do it with actual | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
care and make sure you got the proper mitigation measures in place. | :55:17. | :55:23. | |
Thank you for joining us. The Labour MP Jim Murphy says the independence | :55:24. | :55:29. | |
referendum is not the antidote to what he calls the poison of | :55:30. | :55:32. | |
coalition policies from Westminster. In an article, he says quitting the | :55:33. | :55:38. | |
UK would be to abandon a safety net for Scotland. A spokesman for the | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
Conservatives said changes to welfare benefits are necessary. | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
The former Scottish Secretary's interventions stresses that the vote | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
should not be seen as a friend on the current UK Government or its | :55:52. | :55:57. | |
reform policies. He argues that at one level, the SNP's case would be | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
seductive if it wasn't so superficial. Their current taxi -- | :56:02. | :56:08. | |
tactic is to add people to vote yes to say no to the bedroom tax and | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
David Cameron. That is not a reason to vote to leave the UK. | :56:14. | :56:35. | |
Jim Murphy joins me now in the studio. Your article ends with you | :56:36. | :56:43. | |
saying, why would we leave now when a fairer Scotland can still lie | :56:44. | :56:45. | |
ahead by smack is that an acceptance that errors -- that varies and | :56:46. | :57:04. | |
fairness in Scotland? My point is that Tory policies are a poison that | :57:05. | :57:07. | |
Scotland does not want to drink and does not have to drink. The antidote | :57:08. | :57:14. | |
to that poison isn't the referendum this year but the Labour government | :57:15. | :57:24. | |
in 2015. Why vote no? A Tory government can be gone within a | :57:25. | :57:27. | |
year. Independence is permanent, it is for ever. The MPs have tried a | :57:28. | :57:37. | |
discussion about economy, the currency, defence, and in most cases | :57:38. | :57:40. | |
they find it difficult to gain traction for their argument. So | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
they've retreated into, if you don't like the Tories, vote for | :57:46. | :57:48. | |
independence. It is ludicrous, desperate politics. Given what we've | :57:49. | :57:54. | |
seen in the last bit years, people seeing what they've called a | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
democratic deficit when there is a Tory government in Westminster, you | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
cannot give Arent you that that will not happen again if the current | :58:04. | :58:10. | |
system continues. This referendum is much more important than any general | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
election with ever faced. Governments come and go, this is for | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
ever. This is more important than the first election in January 1910, | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
more important than the general election post war in 1945. It is the | :58:25. | :58:30. | |
biggest decision ever taken in history in Scotland. To reduce it to | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
who hates the Tories most when they could be gone in a year is pretty | :58:36. | :58:41. | |
desperate and shallow. Let's say someone's objection is nuclear | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
weapons, for instance. How should they vote? Well, which party in 2015 | :58:45. | :58:50. | |
has a different approach to nuclear weapons? The Labour Party would like | :58:51. | :58:55. | |
to see a world we of nuclear weapons. It is how you would | :58:56. | :59:03. | |
negotiate your way away from having nuclear weapons and towards a | :59:04. | :59:06. | |
nuclear free world. They would love that to happen through negotiations | :59:07. | :59:14. | |
with Obama and Putin. The contradiction is that ultimately, | :59:15. | :59:18. | |
what you are saying is you would confirm that I prefer a Conservative | :59:19. | :59:22. | |
Party in Westminster rather than a Labour Party running in Scotland. | :59:23. | :59:27. | |
That is ludicrous. My argument is, you cannot reduce the referendum | :59:28. | :59:34. | |
this year into a Punch and Judy show about the government next year. I | :59:35. | :59:38. | |
joined the Labour government because I hate Tory policy. This is not a | :59:39. | :59:45. | |
protest vote about the Tories, this is a permanent decision about the | :59:46. | :59:51. | |
nature and future of our country. As to your question about defeatism, as | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
you probably know, I'm a big football plan. Unless you are away | :59:55. | :00:02. | |
to Barcelona, you never plan for a draw or a defeat. David Cameron is | :00:03. | :00:11. | |
not lying or messy and I think we can avoid tanning for a draw or a | :00:12. | :00:19. | |
defeat. There is a general unfairness about the way the economy | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
is organised. I think Scotland wants to be rid of that type of politics. | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
But the answer to getting rid of Tory policies isn't to change your | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
passport, it is to change your government. The problem is that the | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
UK, it is the UK Government. If you want to get rid of the UK bedroom | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
tax, you don't have to get a separate army. If you want era | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
energy prices, you don't have to take the huge risk involved in | :00:47. | :00:53. | |
taking on a new policy and currency. When the SNP cannot even answer | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
which currency would be in your pocket, it is clearly an enormous | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
risk will stop should you share a platform with Conservatives to | :01:01. | :01:07. | |
campaign for the union? I will not be sharing a platform with David | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
Cameron during the referendum. Why is your party in bed with them in | :01:12. | :01:17. | |
the Better Together campaign? On this issue, we shouldn't pretend | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
that when we disagree about almost everything else we don't agree with | :01:21. | :01:27. | |
them on one issue. It is not a surprise that the Tories are for the | :01:28. | :01:38. | |
union. From different political traditions, we come to a similar | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
answer on how you vote in this referendum, but only on this one | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
issue. And if people vote no, should your party offer people more powers | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
for the parliament in Edinburgh as a result of that vote? I think the | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
Labour Party will come forward with those plans in advance of the | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
referendum. Gordon Brown was suggesting there should be further | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
demolition. Well, there will be further demolition. After that, we | :02:04. | :02:11. | |
have to look at further powers. This debate cannot be about which group | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
of politicians in which parliament in which city exercise powers. There | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
are people whose lives are in crisis at the moment, people are using food | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
banks and moneylenders. Those people who are coping will go head to the | :02:25. | :02:32. | |
summer and think, how can I afford a summer holiday? If this conversation | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
is just about which power is in parliament, it is going to be a | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
turgid time for many people. This is not just about power, it is about | :02:41. | :02:50. | |
political will. Thank you. I'm joined again by the First | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
Minister who's been listening to that interview. Is it the case that | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
you've been trying to characterise this referendum vote as a debate | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
between your party and the Tories at Westminster? Well, I don't know what | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
debate Jim Murphy has been watching, but if you see from the White | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
Paper, the argument underpinning the case for an independent Scotland is | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
the proposition that the best people to decide the future of this country | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
are people living and working in this country. That is the argument | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
that runs through the White Paper like a golden thread. Jim Murphy | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
seems to be unaware of that. The second idea is that Tory governments | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
are temporary interludes. For two thirds of my life, Scotland has been | :03:34. | :03:36. | |
governed by parties we did not elect at Westminster. They are not | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
temporary interludes, they have been the norm that two thirds of my | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
life. Which is why I suspect so many Labour people - Charles Gray, for | :03:46. | :03:52. | |
example - take the opposite view to Jim Murphy. They can see the | :03:53. | :03:59. | |
advantages of having a socially and economically progressive Scotland, | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
which is why they are voting yes. In 2010, 16% of the UK -- the Scottish | :04:04. | :04:12. | |
population voted conservative will stop --. Why are you writing them | :04:13. | :04:20. | |
off? I will repeat that the thread running through the White Paper is | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
the best people to decide on the fate of this country are the people | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
living and working in this country. I want everyone who has the right to | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
vote to vote for independence. I don't exclude anyone, on that | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
proposition. People living and working you will make the best | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
decisions. That is the argument for independence across the globe. Some | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
people in the Labour Party now extend that argument to other | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
countries where they think self-determination is really | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
important and valuable, but they don't extend it to be argument for | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
independence in Scotland. Like other countries, I think Scotland will be | :05:04. | :05:06. | |
better off running all of its own affairs. Jim Murphy got into | :05:07. | :05:15. | |
substantial trouble when a Labour government supported the illegal war | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
in Iraq will stop that is in the decision the people in Scotland will | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
not have supported and no Scottish government would have participated | :05:23. | :05:30. | |
in. Thank you for joining us. Let's now cross for the news. Good | :05:31. | :05:41. | |
afternoon. Pro union academics claim charging tuition fees to students | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
from the rest of the UK in an independent Scotland could break | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
European law. Current regulations prevent undergraduates from | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
countries outside the UK being charged fees from Scottish | :05:55. | :05:57. | |
universities. Independence would mean students from the south of the | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
border would also be eligible for free education. The first minister | :06:02. | :06:08. | |
said the policy was compatible with EU requirements. A man and the boy | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
have died after their car came off the road and plunged into the River | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
Clyde near Bob will bridge in Lanarkshire yesterday morning. | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
Divers located the car ran the people inside. A 38-year-old man and | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
a nine-year-old boy died at the scene. People are being urged to | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
complete bowel cancer screening tests which they will receive when | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
they turned 50 this year. They have to take part in screening every two | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
years and the plan is to improve survival rates by early detection. | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
Now for the early weather forecast with Judith. There is some rain in | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
the forecast later on but for most of us it will be dry with some | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
brightness this afternoon. The best sunshine reserve for Easter | :06:57. | :07:04. | |
Scotland. The rain will move into the West. As the rain marches in | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
across the country it will turn to snow, the forward edge of the rain | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
over the higher ground and central belt. That is all from now. Both | :07:16. | :07:25. | |
sides in the independence campaign have started the New Year | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
assertively. Now let's look at the headlines and what is coming up this | :07:29. | :07:36. | |
week. My guests this week are the Professor of economics at Glasgow | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
Caledonian University and political editor of the Scottish Daily Mail. | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
The front page of the Sunday Herald has Cameron's plea to put in saying | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
help to stop Salmond. This is a leak from the Kremlin that apparently | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
came out on Hogmanay suggesting a Cameron aid has warned independence | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
could send shock waves across the whole of Europe and enlisting the | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
help of land you put in, what you make of that? It is part of a | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
considered campaign to get other countries interested in the | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
referendum. David Cameron had a meeting with Spain to discuss it. | :08:16. | :08:23. | |
They are looking for their closest allies on this path towards the | :08:24. | :08:31. | |
restructure. This story has appeared because of the G8 this year. Cameron | :08:32. | :08:39. | |
has an interest in making the G8 countries aware of the potential | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
destructive nature of a yes vote. The Spanish Prime Minister has | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
something to say on this. Otherworldly doors do not want to | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
become involved and you can understand why. Listening to Jim | :08:53. | :08:59. | |
Murphy earlier saying it is not a protest vote, I think it is the | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
opportunity for a protest vote against the major economic | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
institutions that run our economy. Other countries are interested in | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
the opportunity the referendum provides us with for change. This is | :09:14. | :09:22. | |
bigger than just about Scotland. We will talk about another survey in | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
just a second but we will not expect Putin to have a grand pronouncement | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
in whether Scotland should or should not be independent? Now, of course | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
not. We will hear from more European leaders, EU leaders, in the next few | :09:40. | :09:48. | |
months. I know the SNP are trawling Europe for support. We will hear | :09:49. | :09:51. | |
more concern from other nations in the months ahead. We also have this | :09:52. | :09:59. | |
issue of tuition fees. That is in the Scotland on Sunday newspaper | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
today. An independent Scotland would not be able to charge those from | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
elsewhere in the UK as it currently does. The First Minister says this | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
is not the case and he believes he has legal advice which backs this | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
up, it is an interesting part of the debate? All last night I was talking | :10:17. | :10:24. | |
with friends over dinner about this very issue. Our education system is | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
inherently in equal and has been for many decades. We have widened access | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
but not participation, they are two very different things. I believe in | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
universalism and universal welfare provision but when it comes to our | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
higher education system it is time to revisit the introduction of fees | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
and means testing, I think it is fundamentally unfair. Fees for | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
everyone is a positive will -- possible alternative. David is a | :10:55. | :11:02. | |
potential for Scottish universities to lose out to the tune of ?150 | :11:03. | :11:11. | |
million per year. This is typical of the SNP one thing to be a member of | :11:12. | :11:18. | |
DUP but not play with the rules. -- a member of the European Union. They | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
will find it offensive the fact they will let Irish, French and Spanish | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
students study for free but if you are English you will be charged. | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
There are different rules that can be brought to bear, some experts | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
say. Countries across Europe shared land borders, in Austria and Germany | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
the same debate is going on there. I do not think the SNP can get away | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
with this at all. There is survey in the Scotland on Sunday that says | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
almost half of the people elsewhere in the UK, this poll suggests that | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
the fear is that the rest of the UK would be weakened by Scottish | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
independence. This has not been touched on yet. What a yes vote | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
would mean for the rest of the UK in regards to the UN and other bodies. | :12:16. | :12:27. | |
This issue came up last night, people in the North of England are | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
supportive of Scottish independence because they think it revives a | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
radical framework for the departure of the past and past ways of | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
working. They would look for Scotland to provide that radical | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
framework and perhaps the bravery in Scotland to be more confident and do | :12:46. | :12:53. | |
things differently. I think we have the opportunity for a radical vision | :12:54. | :13:00. | |
and the childcare example is a great one. Transformational childcare is | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
key. What we have got at the moment is promises we are working towards | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
in an incremental way. Things cannot change overnight, we have issues | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
around capacity. The current government vision for childcare is | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
transformational and as an example of that radical way of thinking that | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
we can change things and make Scotland a better place for all of | :13:24. | :13:30. | |
us. Just to look at the week ahead we have the speech coming up from | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
the Scottish Secretary. We have had a big speech from Nicola Sturgeon in | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
recent days and it does feel as though things are really stepping up | :13:40. | :13:49. | |
a gear as regards this campaign. I think we will hear tomorrow about | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
more powers, that will be the theme of the unionist campaign in the | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
coming weeks. We heard from Gordon Brown yesterday talking about | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
further devolution. This is what we will hear more of in the coming | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
weeks. Is there a danger of people being turned off with too much | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
detail? Absolutely, the adverse serial nature needs to move on and | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
we need to talk about women in our communities, we need to talk deal. | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
That is all from us this week, goodbye. | :14:24. | :14:33. |