13/05/2012 Sunday Politics South East

In the South East: Our exclusive investigation reveals

Surrey Police spent nearly �1.5 million on consultants last year -

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2012 seconds

This is Sunday Politics in the South East. Coming up: A happy

Green birthday or a year of disappointments? 12 months after

the people of Brighton and Hove elected the first to Green

authority, we give them a report card. In the studio is the leader

in waiting, Jason Kit Kat. Thank you for coming. Our other guest is

Paul Carter, the Conservative leader of Kent County Council. The

A21, one of the most congested as roads in the South East could

finally be widened. This week, the roads minister agreed to jointly

fund a public inquiry with Kent County Council. He gave me a strong

hint on Radio Kent that the project will be signed off in 2015 when the

Government's next spending round begins. It sounded like it was the

number one a road-building priority. Paul Carter, is it guaranteed? You

are putting up �4 million for this. Has Mike Penning said it is

definitely going ahead? Yes. It is one of the few schemes to be

involved in the public inquiry stage. We need to get that out the

way. We need to make sure all the surveys are done so we are ready to

start when the money is found from the next review. Provided the

coalition government is still in place in 2015, get in this scheme

for the on the point that of no return, committed and starting, for

the next General Election. That will be great for the residents and

commercial travellers they get held up on the dreadful bottleneck.

There are more bottlenecks on that road. If you sort that one out, you

get caught up five miles down the road. It will not completely solve

the problem? No. We have got to look at getting that whole link all

the way down to Hastings better. It is a massive bottleneck which will

be solved, hopefully with the ground being broken in 2015. Jason,

are you up against this? We are not anti- road and anti-car. But every

time you build a road, it to get -- it gets filled up. We need to find

an alternative way to avoid pollution and congestion. If you

were stuck in a traffic jam which has been reported you can run a

more quickly between Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells, if you are stuck

in that, you would want something done? Yes. But why not look at

alternative forms? Bus, rail. And we have got to the face facts more

car use is not the answer. Thank you. Police forces across the South

East are under pressure to spend a lot less by 2015. But the list --

but the way he's Kent, Sussex and Surrey plan to achieve this is

different. An investigation has realised Surrey Police spent 15

times more on consultants than Kent last year.

Good public perception of the police is crucial to their

reputation. Would that reputation be damaged if they force relied

heavily on external consultants who are paid for using taxpayer has'

money? Sunday Politics made a Freedom of Information request to

the force asking how much they spent on consultants. Kent Police

spent �95,000 in the last financial year. That is down from 320 beds

and pounds a year before. Sussex Police had turned to can --

�320,000. Sussex Police turned to external consultants. Surrey Police

spent 1,000 -- 1.5 million. A lot of money went on human resources.

Some people are very critical of this. The people who understand

where the spending is other people who were doing the spending. You

would expect Surrey's expenditure to be in line with Kent and Sussex.

You would think there would be parity. You would think the forces

might share resources. But the facts the spend is so out of sync

with the other two counties indicates a problem that needs

explanation. A why is there such a difference? The Deputy Chief

Constable of Sussex belief explained he is reluctant to use

external consultants. -- Sussex Police. We do employ skilled people

already. What changed his managing our relationship with consultants

differ only. We questioned what they were doing for us and the

value they were giving tours. I think it is about bringing them in

for the skill base they bring. It is about getting rid of them once

they have delivered the value. Police told us it has got plenty of

talented staff in the organisation. They said they targeted it spent on

consultants and aimed to move up to zero spend this year. In terms of

budget cuts, it is not as if Surrey Police is under more pressure than

other forces. Kent Police has to make �45 million of savings over

four years. In real terms, this is 12% of their expenditure. Sussex

Police needs to cut �51 million, which is 15%. Surrey Police needs

to cut �30 million, which is 12%. With both Kent and Sussex saying

they are unable to make the savings without spending more large amounts

of money on consultants, why is Surrey going down this route? --

able. One person hoping to run for political -- for police

commissioner said it is political. This is ideologically driven. It is

on the wrong side of common sense. You expect the private side to beat

involved at some level but not to this extent. There are ways of

saving money. Sussex and Kent seemed to be doing it. Surrey seem

to have stepped into a dream world. They are spending a fortune. There

is very little evidence it will save them money. Surrey Police,

which plans to outsource many services, says it is using external

consultants to make necessary spending cuts. Other forces are

making the same level of savings at a fraction of the cost. While these

are outside consultants -- art these outside consultants worth the

money? Surrey Police said the force have

undertaken a series of change programmes, including a move to

Let us talk to my mind guests. Jason, the force this than the most,

they are putting 200 and extra frontline police officers on the

beat. That is what the police -- the public want? They are spending

millions on external consultants. They are going down a road that is

misguided. Privatising policing is going to undermined people was a

confidence in the force. While there can be a need for specialist

advice from a consultant, on the scale, it is unjustified. We can

see the other counties taking a different path. If they are

providing value for money, what does it matter about the

philosophical answer? In the long term, if you look at the NHS,

privatisation ends up being more risky and expensive. In the early

days, you cannot be sure, in the long term, you know what the

problems will be. It is hard to fight back against that. Once it is

privatised, how do you put the genie back in the bottle? Paul, as

a consequence, if they are able to put 200 extra people out there,

maybe Kent and Sussex should spend more on external consultants?

all about value for money, as you say. Surrey are doing a pilot

project. That could potentially save them �5 million. It is about

recurring costs. We all know in local government we are not having

to save 12% over a couple of years, it is 30%. But your local police

force, Kent, have managed to spend a fraction of the spend of Surrey.

Who has got it right? If you can achieve those savings without

throwing all that money at consultants, why would you do it?

The Surrey project is part of a Home Office project that they have

been encouraged to take part in. A bit of money has probably flowed

from the Home Office to Surrey. Money could have come to us and

reduced the depth of the cuts being imposed. Why is it being spent on

private firms when it could be spent on delivering services?

think it will be with massive financial restraint. Our duty is to

make the best use of every penny. Outsourcing some of those services

is part of that. If you look at the transformation in social care over

the last 20 years, with private providers coming in, delivering

good quality residential care, at roughly half cost of the public

sector can deliver... Comeback to the police. Jason, frustrating we

do not have the details of what they are spending the consultant

fees on. It did seem like a staggering figure. They say that

has resulted in savings of �4.5 million. That makes economic sense.

Could it not have been done by in house people from some of the

experts in the neighbouring forces? Why do they have to go private?

Other forces were able to do this in house. There is a huge amount of

expertise in the public sector. us turn a our attentions to that

Green Party. Meat-free Mondays scrapped, parking rises reversed,

and there are no at solar panels on council buildings. It has been a

tricky year for Brighton and Hove's Green Party. There have been

successes, too. On the anniversary of the country's first ever elected

Green council, we ask, are your Greens really good for you? Jason,

one year in power. How has it been? It has been a great experience. It

has been difficult. We are facing difficult situations from the

coalition government with the large-scale cuts that have been

mentioned. We have brought in lots of positive things like building

new council homes for the first time in decades and Rooney in over

�8 million of investment for transport. -- are bringing in over.

What is particularly green about the policies you have? The living

wage, that is the left wing thing. It is a broad agenda and it is

about social justice and environmental justice. The living

wage is key. Let us pick up on something people might be surprised

by. You have increased the price of allotments. What is green about

that? There is demand for allotments. We are trying to

protect allotments and open new ones. That costs money. A lot of

materials are going to get a better service. You tried to increase

parking charges. That is Green because it is anti- motorist. Were

you shocked by the response? simplified the tariff. That was

about a 5% rise. It has been successful. We are trying to push

motorists to under used car parks. That is happening. There have been

concerns. Any increase will not be popular. So far, we think it is

working for us but I have your manifesto. What happened to,

insulating every home in the city? That was one of your big Green

policies? Unfortunately, the government took away what was the

subsidy programme there. We are waiting on the Green deal. But it

is not what they promised it to be. We are having to work in a

difficult financial times. The Government are imposing this. And

they are cutting at local government more. David Cameron

promised he would lead to the green is government ever. Has he achieved

that? -- greenest. We want to try and help residents in difficult

times. We want to help them save energy and money. In the public

sector, we want to lead by example in trying to make sure we reduce

our energy consumption across public buildings, particularly

schools, where there are some fabulous example projects. That

will help to reduce the coast on ratepayers. How can we articulate

the Government's Green deal? We need to explain it. They have

struggled. Yes. It is a communication issue. What is on

offer, though at Green Investment Bank about to be started -- of the

Green Investment Bank, that will reduce energy costs. We all need to

get behind the campaign. We need to spend less money on energy. We need

to save the planet, as well. Jason is learning about the realities of

being in power. You have been leader of Kent County Council for a

number of years. What have been frustrations for you? What have you

had to compromise on? I am a very impatient individual. I have had to

compromise on the speed of change. We know where we want to go in Kent

County Council. Some of the changes that are now underway, they were a

long time coming. My predecessor had similar frustrations in the

slowness of the public sector to be adjusted compared to the private

sector. I am steeped in a private sector background. In trying to

change the culture of getting things happening, I am pushing for

this to deliver efficiencies and improve services. Let us look at

the issue of leadership. You are about to become a leader, Jason.

How much listening do you do to the public? If you did not complete a

PhD in government consultations. You seem to want to consult. Is it

not time to say, I am the leader, I will show you leadership.

Absolutely, we need to make decisions. Given the challenging

times local government face, we have to accept engagement is low

and we need to build on that. People need to feel their money is

being well spent and they have a part to play. Can I come in there?

Very briefly. People have accused you of being too much of a leader.

The conservation overkill that is paralysing government, the threat

of judicial review, we are elected to lead. We must set the pace and

take the direction. We have elections every four years. It just

closed and the process. We do need to move on. We will now have a

round-up of the week was my knees. -- week's news. It was good news

for those who have campaigned for the widening of the road back. The

Government says it is now a priority project will will not

happen until after 2015. The bad news for the UK border agency. A

damning report criticised Gatwick. They are trying to ensure the right

minority of people are search. Immigration officers were among

public sector workers who took part in Thursday's strike over pay,

pensions and jobs. It may not be top of everyone's agenda and many

Tories oppose it but we are embracing Lords reform. We need a

Lords that is elected by people. Patronage is not something of the

21st century. A Kent Conservative MP has

described Lords reform as a ridiculous policy. Paul? I agree

with Laura's sentiments. The country is a crisis at the moment

and I don't think our parliamentarians should get bogged

down in Lords reform at the moment. Jason? It should be direct Lee

elected copy of. It is long overdue. OK, they Gatwick story. Who would