17/02/2013 Sunday Politics South East

Most secondary schools have opted to become academies. Should they

beat privatise? Should any state school be run for profit?

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2117 seconds

I'm Julia George and this is the Sunday Politics in the South East.

Coming up later. Could there be life in Kent's dying nuclear site

in Dungeness after all? Why new proposals for nuclear power could

help revive a local industry? Joining me in the studio today is

Conservative MP for Dover and Deal Charlie Elphicke and the leader of

the Labour Group on Brighton and Hove City Council Gill Mitchell.

Welcome. We'll talk about schools in a moment but let's start with

vulnerable children. Medway Council is failing to protect them. A

damning Ofsted report says children are not seen quickly enough when

they may be at risk. Inspectors have demanded immediate changes,

the councillor in charge of children's services has apologised.

I think what they should do is in the first instances look at what

Kent began Hal Kemp has turned around their services and improved

the quality. The lessons learned could be applied. But there was

certainly a lot of money involved. The caseload was so high. It is

very difficult at the moment with budgets so tight. It is a very

challenging time for local government. We should not lose

sight of that. They should learn the lessons and hopefully they will

put their services back on track. He showed many be ring-fenced. If

we cannot protect vulnerable children, what is the local

authority for? It is the fact that early intervention grant funding

has been cut from local authorities and what you are seeing is that

valuable early work which helps to keep children out of needing the

production of local authorities being cut back and therefore more

of the hard end, if you like, of work falling on be be killed social

workers and this Urdd -- is the problem. -- beleaguered. We would

want to make sure that those child- protection services were adequately

funded but also adequately managed and where we could, we would be

wanting to shore up the early support for vulnerable children,

vulnerable families. It is not just a problem for vulnerable families.

This is a local authority that has terrible problems in terms of

primary school results as well. English and mathematics results the

worse in the country. Is it just failing its children? I think it

needs a focus on improving primary schools and clearly they need to

look at how they are doing with young children and young people and

how they can give them the better chances and better opportunities in

life. There is no quick fix. They need to look at what Kent did to

turn around services and the investments across the country on

how to make our primary schools really great. When you see they are

failing in terms of primary schools, is this an authority that looks --

meets to take a long hard look at children? It is difficult that once

you get that level of decline two actually turn things around quickly

but it is important to that parents have confidence in those schools

and we have a slightly different issue with Brighton and Hove. We

have a crisis of school places but luckily, our primary schools are

pretty good. Every parent wants a good local school for their child.

If your child does well does it matter who's running the school and

how? The Head Teachers' union says it does matter. They're hold a

meeting in Kent later this month urging schools to resist the

pressure to become an academy. But it may be too late to hold back the

tide. Nearly two thirds of Kent's secondary schools are already free

of local government control. And they're being joined by a growing

number of primaries. Can the government continue to fund them

all? Lucinda Adam went to find out. It is an education revolution. Most

secondary schools in Kent and Medway anile academies or free

schools. They had broken away from local authorities and instead get

funding directly from central government. They are free to decide

what they teach and how they manage their finances. In Kent, 71 out of

101 secondary schools are academies or are in the process of converting.

In Medway, all but two schools have switched over. And in East Sussex,

it is just under half. Academies began under the Labour government

as a policy designed in deprived areas but under the coalition

government, that policy has been expanded so now all schools can

apply and so many have because they get more autonomy and more money.

Academies get �25,000 to convert and hundreds of thousands of pounds

towards improving buildings. Some have even been bailed out of

financial difficulty. But with so many, the scheme is now a billion

pounds over Budgett. The government now faces exactly what they were

taught about. The demand is not sustainable. Some head teachers in

the south-east now say they feel under pressure to convert. And --

an academy gets 10 % more funding but that many would otherwise have

gone to the local authority. Kent County Council's school Budgett has

been slashed from �15 million to just �2.5 million. It is now

stripped to the bowler and we are struggling to deliver our statutory

responsibilities and the more schools that converter academies,

the money diminishes even faster to an extent where you would have

negative money to still deliver the statutory services, such as school

transport, support to children with learning difficulties through the

state and in process and access to specialist support. This trust is a

chain of academies. It says it is getting good results from schools

collaborating to share good practice and training its own

teachers. Its chief executive thinks the academy system is the

way forward. If you look at the number of academies, that is the

number of governing bodies who feel that is the best for the future of

pupils in that school. It is very positive and I think we will have

more and more academies as time goes on. A be you think we could

have a situation with the 100 % academies? -- do you. The that is

probably the future. But can the government afford it? There's

nothing worse for a head teacher, its treasurer of a governing body

of a school, to not know where the next payroll is going to come from

and if you take it to its logical conclusion, they could be

struggling to pay a role in a few years' time. The now it has been

suggested that profit-making private companies could have a role.

Education secretary Michael Gove has already allowed one profit -- a

school to be allowed to run for profit in Suffolk. The idea of

frankly bringing in a private company would be able to make a

profit out of education and education our youngsters, I think

most people would find that horrible. What becomes the driving

force is actually the return, the dividends, for those shareholders

of that given company. I do not think private companies should make

a profit. That is not the way to go. This is money from the public purse.

On the money that we get, we spend on the pupils within our academies.

That is the way you raise standards. I do not think it should be for

chains like ours to make a profit. As the number continues to grow,

how does the government planned to pay for them? By expanding the

system to all schools, as it bitten You're a pretty intimately involved

in government decisions about key policies like education. How does

the government continued to fund the Academy's programme? It is

quite straightforward. The amount of money that was being spent on

schools that were in local authority control is now being

spent on schools that are academies. The only difference is, you were

talking about 10 % of the Budgett going to local authorities, it is

now going direct to schools. It is not costing any more by having

academies. It is just that the money is in the hands of the school

or schools and they are able to buy services more effectively than

local authorities. And none Academy schools disadvantaged? You heard

the leader of the council saying they are struggling to deliver for

the rest of their schools. Ali getting to a point where schools

will have to become academies? -- are we. I do not think so. There

are some local authorities where almost none have converted.

Generally speaking, if a lot have converted in a local authority it

says something about what they think of the local authority and if

they are looking at the kind of numbers you are talking us looking

at, if they are looking at leaving at that rate, it says something

about be services. And they think they can get a better deal by going

it alone. This is a transitional cost which is effectively the

�25,000 which really just goes on legal fees. There is a cost of

moving from one form of governance to another. But it is a one-off. It

is not on overall cost. How much truth is there the Independent on

Sunday has said that leak memos suggest that they are thinking of

privatising academies. We have to be very careful using words like

privatisation. One of the people in the film talked about there being

horror that private companies would be involved. Money is spent in

special schools from profit-making companies. About a third of

nurseries are run by profit-making companies. Are they doing very good

job. The people using them would probably have no idea they are

making a profit. That comes to the heart of it. What matters in the

end is what works. I think that we are in a situation where we have a

pretty good education system in this country but Ofsted said that

up to 40 % of teaching is not good enough. That means maybe a third of

schools are underperforming. We need to look at every possible

solution. Academies are one part of it. Potentially we may need to look

at whether the profits sector can make -- play a role. I am sure that

parents just what a good local school. Do you think we should be

allowed schools to be run for a profit? You referred to the school

in Suffolk where the governors have appointed a private company to run

the school for them. That is an interesting model. Governors are

bound by their obligation to the welfare of the child. They have

appointed a company to run the school. That is quite different to

having the board of directors of a company being the governors. There

is an important distinction. I think there is some future in

allowing governing bodies which themselves are charities tour.

Private providers to run parts of the school. -- to appoint. Clearly

academy status does not guarantee good result. Parents are interested

in getting the best results. And opportunities for their children.

You're right. There is an issue with Christchurch Academy. I was

there last week and I met with the interim principle. He has a great

plan to turn things. They are making sure that people -- children

get the best chances in life. It will take a year to be visible. But

the key thing is that what is in progress. You have head teachers

taking real responsibility immediately without all of the

county council level bureaucracy. On this very subject of failing

academies, it is a horrible word to use about any school but it is not

just the situation in Christchurch Academy. 16 schools in Kent failing

to reach key benchmark. If a failing school can be turned into

an academy, what do you do would be failing Academy? That is a very

good question. On average, they have performed better than

comparative schools. That does not mean to say that every academy has

been a success. Some of them have taken over in really trying

circumstances. Some of them have taken over in difficult

circumstances. If there is a problem with an Academy, then we

need to look at other options. One option is looking at chains of

academies. The research I have done suggests they are even more

effective at raising results. But if that does not work, that is

where we do have to contemplate whether Iraq skills and resources

in the private sector that we can put to work for the most

disadvantaged children. Would you ever be happy with the schools

being run for profit in the state sector? Absolutely not. This is

rather a circular argument. What we are losing sight of is that the

only way that the Conservative government now was giving any money

at all for new schools as if they are free schools or academies, over

which local authorities -- local bodies have no control. Every time

one pops up and is established, that is less money coming to the

local authority. What we need still is a democratically accountable

local educational authority who can have the power to intervene to

raise standards, to achieve what we have just talked about, the synergy

between schools, so that they can learn from each other, who can put

forward a fair admissions policy and manage this process. We are in

the worst possible world now where there is such uncertainty about

future school provision. We are now talking about future funding being

at risk. All parents warned -- what is a good local school. That is

being increasingly difficult to promised parents two years down the

line. Could experimental technology help save Kent's nuclear industry?

A report by government scientists due to be published later this year

will set out nuclear options for the UK, including the building of

smaller reactors powered in new ways. Shepway Council wants to

develop a new reactor in Dungeness, but the government says NO. So does

the South East have any sort of nuclear future? Joining me from our

Westminster studio is energy expert Malcolm Grimston. What do you think

should happen? The difficulty with the Dungeness site is that it is in

a very important area of natural beauty, the shingles there are

quite a rare habitat. They are designated at a European level.

Actually since the de commissioning of the station on the site, if it

is taken apart more rapidly, there may be space there to put the works

for a new reactor in the course of the next 10 years or so. But it is

a difficult argument. What I think is clear is if United Kingdom does

aim to replace all of its current UK stations -- nuclear stations

with nuclear power plants to make sure we are not to wind -- too

dependent on imported gas, Dungeness would have to come into

the picture. Kent is short of capacity of all sorts. And there is

the supportive workforce locally. And the infrastructure in place.

used a lot of energy in the south- east. Yes, and if you include

London into the south-east, by a long way, the south-east and London

has the biggest energy deficit in the United Kingdom. Back large

amounts of electricity are imported from the North, the existing Cole

stations in Nottinghamshire and Yorkshire, for example. And

transporting electricity, you need wires, that is unsightly. You waste

energy through that. Are they a genuine alternative technologies?

You could dazzle us with a fast reactors and fusion. I do not have

a degree in physics. Are there different techniques? In theory,

yes. But at the moment, no. The report is really looking beyond the

year 2030 and there are a number of quite exciting approach is to

nuclear energy which could be exploited them. Nuclear energy is

not like wind and water which we have been using for thousands of

years. The problems with those is you do not get the energy necessary

when you want it. They have been the search for a long time and very

little has emerged by way of an answer. There are ways of getting

energy from uranium which are quite different from the reactors but

none of those is ready at the moment. I think to get us through

the immediate future, which has a lot of nuclear power plants and

Cole plants, come into the end of their lives in the next 10 to 15

OK. Thank you. It is good to have you with us. You want to see an

extension of renewables. They are so much more expensive in terms of

how much it costs to produce the energy. 14 % of the population is

in fuel poverty. Nuclear is the issue -- is the cheapest source of

energy. Any energy policy, you do need security of supply. It has to

be low carbon. And yes, it has to be affordable. But that does not

mean to say that we cannot stop investing in renewable energy.

Because the one thing that of course is so contentious around the

production of nuclear energy is the disposal and we have just seen that

has created quite a high a Test cap in Cumbria. It never made any sense

will stop we have a nuclear energy industry in Kent. The work force

should be put to work in a village macro. What is standing in the way

is a man-made Beach. I say that the zero carbon energy production is

more important to our environment A Kent butcher says he wants to

sell horsemeat legitimately because his customers are curious to try it.

The supplier has said to us, he does sell it. Dame Kelly Holmes

treated this me -- this week that she is fed up of the government

ignoring her calls for more P lessons. We need to make sure that

we give young children the opportunity to try all scored --

sports. Potholes in the south-east have reached Third World standards

and that is damaging the economy, according to the RAC. And he says

it will be his most unique gig so far. Playing the House of Commons

next month for a charity supporting A very quick thought on horsemeat.

I would not eat it but I am glad that he is labelling it. I do not