29/09/2013 Sunday Politics South East

BBC 1 888

With me are a trio of top political commentators. All three will be

tweeting their thoughts, or in some cases just their thought through the

show, using the hashtag #bbcsp. cases just their thought through the

Conservative Party conference gets afternoon. We have already been

bombarded with a series of policy announcements, a tax break for

married couples of up to £200 per year, more money on life extending

cancer treatments and, last night, the news that the second stage of

the Chancellor's Help To Buy scheme brought forward from the start of

next year. David Cameron says it is all about helping hard-working

people. Right now, you can't get, 95% mortgage. That means a typical

family with two people earning 20,000, 25,000, they are being

asked, to buy an average house, 20,000, 25,000, they are being

mortgage payment, but they can't get the mortgage. They can't buy their

flat or house. As Prime Minister, I'm not going to stand back while

people's aspirations to get on the housing ladder, to own their own

flat or home, is being trashed. housing ladder, to own their own

is why we need to act. A predictable attempt by party leadership to

kick-start the conference with eye-catching policies. The polls

show a big bounce for Ed Miliband and the Labour Party, with decent

numbers for UKIP. What do party councillors as they travel to their

For the Conservatives this weekend, conference, and as a scene setter we

asked ComRes to survey councillors are Finland and Wales. Councillors

asked ComRes to survey councillors like Tom, packing for conference at

home in Wellingborough. Immigration is an issue for him. He thinks there

are pros and cons. But we found is an issue for him. He thinks there

immigration has had a negative reflects into this wider issue of

our relationship with Europe. People possible influx of ovarian and

Romania emigrants. Obviously the issue of Europe is very big. --

Ukrainian. His colleagues in Corby are worried about the rise of the UK

Independence Party. In our survey, nearly a quarter of Conservative

councillors thought that their party should make a pact with UKIP. The

concern is, yes, will they take If that happens, maybe we don't

concern is, yes, will they take back in. Maybe a partnership is

concern is, yes, will they take way to go. It depends what they

concern is, yes, will they take talking about them. A pact? Depends

what they say, anything is possible. What would you like to see? Ideally,

from my point of view, a national pact. David Cameron arrived in

Manchester last night. Around the same time as these activists from

London. I broke the news to them that in our survey just 26% of Tory

councillors think that the prime ministers in touch with the lives of

ordinary people. The same at all Conservatives, you don't judge

people by their background. It's not where they come from, it is where

they are going to. It is not a where they come from, it is where

problem that he is a bit on the where they come from, it is where

side? Cull you might describe him like that, I would not use those

words. Explain your T-shirt, it like that, I would not use those

phrase that a senior Cameron person is alleged to have used about you?

It is a humorous way of letting is alleged to have used about you?

party now that we are here to say important. We are not going away any

time soon. A sentiment you will important. We are not going away any

a lot at this conference, because just 22% of councillors in our

survey said that David Cameron was any good at listening to the people

that work hard for his party. That was Adam. Joining me now from the

Conservative Party conference in William Hague. Welcome to the Sunday

Politics. Good morning. Over one in five Tory councillors in our survey

support a pact with UKIP at the five Tory councillors in our survey

election. Why do you think that five Tory councillors in our survey

If it is one in five, it means a large majority did not want a pact

with UKIP at the next election. large majority did not want a pact

have noticed that UKIP, in local elections, has been receiving votes,

some of which would otherwise have been for the Conservatives. I think

we have to make sure that people election they are choosing between a

Conservative and Labour Government, as David Cameron as Prime Minister

or Ed Miliband. If people want to get a referendum on Europe, the

or Ed Miliband. If people want to way to do that is to have David

Cameron as Prime Minister. I think a Cameron as Prime Minister. I think a

general election is different from the local government perspective. It

is pretty unusual, some might say unprecedented, for a large chunk of

one of the big parties in this country to want to go into coalition

one of the big parties in this with a smaller party before an

happened? Looking at your survey, three times as many didn't want

happened? Looking at your survey, with statistics, you can highlight

it whichever way around you want to. The point is, we are not having

pacts with other parties, electoral pacts with other parties. You rule

it out? That is not going to happen. What we do want is to have a pact

it out? That is not going to happen. with the voters, if you like, as we

have often done in the Conservative Party. We have won over the voters

of other parties to support our policies and Prime Minister. That is

important with those people that say important with those people that say

they want to vote for UKIP. By default, they would produce a Labour

government in the exact opposite of many of the things they intend,

government in the exact opposite of Conservative and decide to vote

government in the exact opposite of UKIP instead in a general election.

That could help to produce a Labour government. The chairman of the

That could help to produce a Labour committee, the elected voice of

Conservative backbenchers, he says your party should spell out what had

once back from the European Union before next year's European actions.

Do you agree? We will be spelling out some things in the European

elections. I will be talking about this later on today. For instance,

European treaties the concept of ever closer union, a concept that in

believed in. We would like that ever closer union, a concept that in

consequences that would flow from that. We will be setting out the

examples and principles of the changes we want to say. Certainly

over the next year, not only before the European actions but the general

election, if you are saying, let have the exact list of anything

election, if you are saying, let negotiate, that is difficult because

there will be a negotiation of a new deal in Europe if David Cameron

there will be a negotiation of a new election. To some extent, that has

to be negotiated. Only 11% of your own councillors feel that people in

their area think that George Osborne is in touch with ordinary people.

is not for me to explain why people say what they say in surveys. The

important thing is what we are delivering for the country. What

George Osborne is delivering his renewed economic growth. 1.4 million

new jobs in the private sector, renewed economic growth. 1.4 million

for hard-working people, by reducing the tax for 25 million of them.

for hard-working people, by reducing Help To Buy scheme that we are

highlighting today. That is what really matters to people, actually,

I think you will find. Let's talk about helping ordinary people. Ed

Miliband is guilty freeze energy prices. What are you going to do

about energy prices, we already asked energy companies to put people

on their lowest tariffs. This has not been amended. -- implemented.

Why not? This is going to happen within this government. It is going

to happen within this government when the... Why hasn't it happened

now? People are suffering now from rising energy prices. It has not

happened because my colleagues have been implimenting it. In the case of

Ed Miliband's policy, if you are asking why it has not yet happened

under this Government, it didn't even survive a few our's scrutiny in

opposition. In a few hours he had to concede that if there was a big

change in oil prices then the policy would not work. The trouble is,

change in oil prices then the policy would dry up some of the investment

in the energy industry. I don't think it is a credible promise.

in the energy industry. I don't a party that presided over council

tax bills doubling in the next a party that presided over council

tax bills doubling in the next government, -- last government,

tax bills doubling in the next not very credible. Why is George

Osborne going against the European Well, we don't want to see the

European treaties used in a way Well, we don't want to see the

they should not be used. It's not necessarily over this particular

issue. It is over the power that the European Union has over our lives

and over this country. Can the bankers look after themselves? We

should be able to decide those things in our own country. We have

never signed up to such matters things in our own country. We have

European institutions. If you allow one thing that wasn't meant to be

decided to be decided, you find one thing that wasn't meant to be

there are another ten or 20 things that affect many other people. We

are very vigilant about what we that affect many other people. We

competence creep, with the European Union taking more powers than it was

meant to have. That is one of the referendum, do want a new deal in

Europe. That is what we intend to institution, ICAP, fined for fixing

the LIBOR rates. The founder of institution, ICAP, fined for fixing

company has donated £5 million to your party. Shouldn't you give it

back? Aren't you ashamed to accept that money? He has donated his own

Which he made out of ICAP. As people have to other parties, people are

free to do that and they should have to other parties, people are

free to do that. I am not aware have to other parties, people are

any plan for that to be repaid. Because you can't afford to. Let's

recap this. We have seen Tory MPs parrot propaganda lines from the

energy companies this week. We have the Chancellor going to court to

fight for unlimited banker bonuses. We have a top Tory donor the centre

fight for unlimited banker bonuses. of yet another city scandal. Ed

Miliband is right when he says you lot are on the side of the vested

interests so the rich and powerful, isn't he? Well, again, look at the

record. I just did! 1.4 million extra jobs in the private sector, 25

million people with a tax cut, a Help To Buy scheme which is going to

help so many people, particularly young people have the house that

future. Council tax bills held down, welfare reform so that it pays to

work. Actually, this is a government achieving things for hard-working

While President Laugharne he's talking about peace, the Iranians

weapons programme. -- is talking. It would be hard to say from week

to week whether it is speeding up continuing with it. That is why

to week whether it is speeding up say the new message - the new words

- from Iranian leadership are very welcome. I said that to the Foreign

Minister in New York over the last few days but it is the actions that

will count. At the moment, the nuclear programme continues. We

negotiations on that and that will be a very important test as to

whether actions will match the words. When will we know it if we

are being strung along? He has strung as a long in the past as

are being strung along? He has nuclear weapons negotiator. When

will we know if he is not just doing that again? Over the next

will we know if he is not just weeks, it will be a very important

time. He has said there should be more transparency over the Iranian

transparent in many regards at the moment. The atomic agency is asking

for information that is not being given. One test is, in the coming

information? The information that the international of authority is

asking for about their nuclear programme. We will be able to form

a view of this in the coming weeks or months. It is important we test

their new willingness to talk to us important to find out whether they

asking, is the nuclear programme really continuing? Are they really

negotiations and offer something Speaking of being strung along,

what sanctions would President Assad face if, in six months - the

Year, Syria still has a chemical weapons arsenal. In the resolution

we voted through the UN Security Council on Friday night, is the

Council will take measures under Chapter seven of the UN Charter

Council will take measures under the event of non-compliance. Does

that allow full force? I did not catch that. Does that allow for

Security Council resolution about Iraq, which most people concluded

in not allow full force. It does not specify that. It talks about

terms seven of the charter. That is a message of the whole UN Security

Council that there will be measures - there will be consequences - if

the Assad regime does not comply. has a big commitment. I have spent

counterpart over the last week. Russia has said, this is something

you will have to do. We will work with Russia and others very closely

to check there is compliance will this resolution. Given the progress

that has been made, you must be very glad that the British House of

Commons stopped your rash to force against Syria. -- rush. The reason

credible threat of military action. has happened is because there was a

credible threat of military action. President Obama did not get it

through Congress. They have not President Obama did not get it

the vote in Congress. There is no other explanation as to why the

policy changed. It was because there was a debate about military

action in the West that the policy changed on theirs. That is why it

changed. We were not in a rush for military action. The boat put to

the House of Commons was to have inspectors reported. It was before

Russian and Syrian policy changed. We need to make sure that works

Russian and Syrian policy changed. practice. Thank you. What do you

make about this rushing forward with the help to buy scheme which

was meant to start next year - coming forward mad to the next

couple of weeks? I think it is a Government having an interest in

mortgage lending. -- there is a fundamental problem. It should have

been set much lower to exclude London and the South East where

houses are dramatically overvalued. Many economists think freezing

energy prices is a terrible policy. These policies can be popular. If

you have no chance of getting a deposit, the Government will make

Osborne tried every single lever. It looked like he could not do

anything to get the economy moving. It is moving. They have pulled it

forward and there are signs it is recovering. The reason why they

forward and there are signs it is doing this is they want to show

this week at the conference there are real sort of understandable

issues you can explain very simply that really up going to improve

people's lives. The Conservatives Miliband's speech last week. The

nuts. Much more cautious and -- language about the energy price

freeze. They are nervous that Ed Miliband may be touching a nerve on

that one. What we will get this week, I suggest, his Tory populism

to counter Miliband populism. I think we will see that and it will

be a mistake. As long as it is think we will see that and it will

about The Picture, they are on relatively strong ground. When the

political conversation changes to more fiddly things, particularities

standards, things that are some more fiddly things, particularities

below that picture, I do not think they can win a bidding war with

below that picture, I do not think Labour Party. It is about borrowing

against a party that stands for Labour Party. It is about borrowing

before the Labour conference, which is unemployment, GDP growth and

before the Labour conference, which warming economic picture. That does

not pay energy bills. Does not sound that the Tories have anything

not pay energy bills. Does not to counter the price freeze. --

not pay energy bills. Does not does not sound. They have had a

week to think about a great attack line and they do not add anything.

the credibility test. Ed Miliband said, if there were a big spike

the credibility test. Ed Miliband energy prices, he would not be able

it is about credibility. Being seen as serious and grown-up is worth

it is about credibility. Being seen more than any burst of popularity.

with the election campaign, it My worry about the announcement

with the election campaign, it begins to lose credibility, begins

to seem a banana republic. It looks a lot less wise than it did last

week. I disagree. Every time energy bills go up and they will continue

to go up, it will be a reminder bills go up and they will continue

how much people are being hit in the pockets. People know by energy

prices are going up. There is a structural change in the world that

was not there before - China and India. These energy companies may

be making huge profit but, at the end of the day, what is driving

be making huge profit but, at the the cost of fuel is China and India.

Ed Miliband, great man that he is, I am not sure he can take on the

people Sammir on that one. How dare Labour's Conference in Brighton

last week. Dogged by criticism over the summer of his leadership style

and lack of policies, Mr Miliband tried to demonstrate his strength

of character with a series of bold announcements, and attempted to

position himself on the side of ordinary Brits. The Labour leader

told party members he would stand up to the strong and take on the

vested interests that hold back up to the strong and take on the

economy. In a speech in which he jokingly referred to himself as

economy. In a speech in which he action hero, Mr Miliband promised

to switch the forthcoming business action hero, Mr Miliband promised

tax cut from large firms to smaller businesses. He said he would force

big firms to train at an apprentice every time they bring in a worker

from outside the EU. He hinted that increasing the minimum wage would

be increased. He bowed to take on developers with a use it or lose it

threat to landowners and pledged to build 200,000 homes each year by

2020. He promised to freeze energy prices and reset the energy market.

The next Labour government will freeze gas and electricity prices

provoked a rash of headlines - hailing the return of red Ed macro.

It has also given him a spike in the polls. And Labour's Shadow

Ed Miliband says, our energy market is broken and does not work. In

what way is that market to date different from the one Labour left

companies that dominate the energy generate energy, and sell it on

companies that dominate the energy Miliband recognised when he was

Secretary of State and asked for more information from the company

Secretary of State and asked for is on hold serve costs and profits,

all the things we have done to mitigate against that in terms of a

warm front programme and everything Horsell market is too secretive

warm front programme and everything it is too much about such supply. -

- the wholesale market. We have been raising with the Government in

a co-operative way the argument been raising with the Government in

resetting the market. It has got worse in terms of speed at which

prices have gone up. Labour put wholesale and retail together. It

was the start this dates back to wholesale and retail together. It

was the start this dates back to privatisation. We took some reforms

realised it was not working and privatisation. We took some reforms

was broken and we need to reset privatisation. We took some reforms

Ed Miliband will be the first to onwards. Let's have a look at what

happened to energy prices under onwards. Let's have a look at what

Labour government. Electricity up 67%, gas up 139%. Overall prices up

by 48%. The market was broken and we saw prices biking as wholesale

prices went up. The tick action we saw prices biking as wholesale

the one Front programme, decent homes for social housing. -- we

programme. Trying to do things around social obligations needs

programme. Trying to do things be looked at. Gas and electricity

presided over but as a consequence of Labour policy. Beds have a look

at the breakdown of dual fuel - of Labour policy. Beds have a look

and electricity bill. -- let's have a look. The supply costs of getting

it to us and so on. The policies government - Green levies - are

energy bills. £112 on average bill of 1188. You have put the bill up.

obligations amount to £112. That helps the poorest insulate homes.

Overwhelmingly, looking at your wholesale costs are worth more than

half. What we have seen, based on figures we now have, in Eni macro,

a wholesale costs fell by 39% and that was not reflected in our bills.

Do you have plans to do anything about the £112? If you took that

off, you could cut bills by 10% tomorrow. Or if you were in power.

It is important that restimulate energy. It -- we stimulate. If we

do not have clean energy, we will be beholden for ever-more to fossil

do not have clean energy, we will fuels that are depleting. It will

create jobs and bring in investment will start in the last few years,

investment. If I could go back to whatever advance there are, looking

at whether the money raised through energy companies to deliver energy

efficiency, is that doing as well as it might? Could it be better

delivered by another agency? They are fair questions. We need to get

market. Can we make the market will competitive make sure when there is

downward pressure on wholesale prices, that is reflected on our

bills? That is the bigger picture argument. Also the freeze to help

As you complain about the energy prices, it was as a result of your

actions. Ed Miliband introduced prices, it was as a result of your

climate change act. He admitted prices would have to rise to pay for

decarbonisation. He said, we are going to minimise the costs as much

as possible, but it is true there is not a low-cost energy future out

there. It is important that we address the pressures on bills,

there. It is important that we also recognise that if we are going

to build a better future where we can have more home-grown British

renewables. Truth is it is about the market. I acknowledge I acknowledge

wholesale prices have fallen. They fell in 2009, we got a reduction in

bills of 5%. Which are saying that the big companies are overcharging

going up, but we haven't the big companies are overcharging

amount of the big companies are overcharging

those profits coming through. But the big companies are overcharging

that £125 is going to get the big companies are overcharging

because your leader said the big companies are overcharging

speech in Brighton that Labour will have a world leading commitment

speech in Brighton that Labour will Government to take out

speech in Brighton that Labour will from energy

speech in Brighton that Labour will is not that far away. By 2030,

speech in Brighton that Labour will more coal generation, no more gas

generation, only much more expensive more coal generation, no more gas

nuclear and much more more coal generation, no more gas

renewables. It cannot be more coal generation, no more gas

without bills going up even further? more coal generation, no more gas

Hang on a second. The 2030 target to more coal generation, no more gas

remove carbon from more coal generation, no more gas

supply, we have said we should set a more coal generation, no more gas

target now because, actually, it more coal generation, no more gas

gives us more time to plan ahead and also allows investment to come in.

gives us more time to plan ahead and There is plenty

gives us more time to plan ahead and in their pockets not want to

gives us more time to plan ahead and what they are stalling because of

gives us more time to plan ahead and the Government's hesitancy over

gives us more time to plan ahead and this. I just want a clarification

here. My understanding is that this. I just want a clarification

commitment is to get rid of all carbon from power generation

commitment is to get rid of all 2030? From the letters city supply.

commitment is to get rid of all Only electricity. We will still have

gas? We have always said we will need gas for decades to come.

gas? We have always said we will are clear for that. But you will be

increasingly dependent on expensive nuclear. EDF are currently demanding

increasingly dependent on expensive twice the market

increasingly dependent on expensive plans in this country.

increasingly dependent on expensive are two or three times

increasingly dependent on expensive price. Bills are going up under your

policies, and price. Bills are going up under your

policies? On nuclear, we took a decision

policies? On nuclear, we took a that we needed to revitalise

policies? On nuclear, we took a sector, to hit targets on

policies? On nuclear, we took a energy and make sure it can do the

policies? On nuclear, we took a heavy lifting. The Government at

policies? On nuclear, we took a present time are

policies? On nuclear, we took a discussions with

policies? On nuclear, we took a strike price should be. It's

important, because I don't know what it's going to be, it is important

that stands up to scrutiny in terms it's going to be, it is important

of value for money. At it's going to be, it is important

time, I go back to market reforms. We will not just have

time, I go back to market reforms. difference, the

time, I go back to market reforms. we will have it for renewables as

well. That is even more important, we will have it for renewables as

that we have a transparent we will have it for renewables as

that we can have a robust target price to be judged against. Michael

that we can have a robust target Gove recognised in

that we can have a robust target that the market was not working. The

Telegraph that the market was not working. The

they used the term cosy cartel. We have former advisers to David

Cameron saying something needs to be have former advisers to David

done. I'm surprised David have former advisers to David

doesn't acknowledge that. You are going to freeze prices for 20 months

and will come up with a new going to freeze prices for 20 months

regulator to replace Ofgem. Will that regulator have the power to

control prices? The new energy watchdog will have a strategy

control prices? The new energy responsibility to monitor the

wholesale costs and prices, which responsibility to monitor the

currently doesn't have at the moment. As a result of that it

currently doesn't have at the have the power

currently doesn't have at the wholesale prices fall, it can

currently doesn't have at the the energy companies, if they don't,

currently doesn't have at the to pass on reductions in bills to

consumers. It will not have to pass on reductions in bills to

see in some parts of the European Union, 15 of them, that have a

variety of price controls Union, 15 of them, that have a

things at below inflation and what have you. France, Spain, Italy. It

things at below inflation and what will not do that. Why?

things at below inflation and what are looking at a temporary price

things at below inflation and what freeze to reflect a

things at below inflation and what wholesale prices, to give the

British public respite from ever wholesale prices, to give the

climbing bills while they wholesale prices, to give the

reforms into the market. At the end of this, what we want is

reforms into the market. At the end trusted, that is more transparent.

reforms into the market. At the end We do believe it is right that,

actually, we need a regulator that has much more of a role in making

actually, we need a regulator that sure the market is managed

effectively. Are you accusing energy companies of profiteering? EU I am

accusing them of companies of profiteering? EU I am

not passing on wholesale reduction companies of profiteering? EU I am

costs to the customer in a fair companies of profiteering? EU I am

Of making Carter -- cartel profits? companies of profiteering? EU I am

I do believe that the level of profits they have passed on to their

shareholders is high, profits they have passed on to their

the reductions they could have profits they have passed on to their

provided to consumers. Let's profits they have passed on to their

the evidence for that. profits they have passed on to their

British owned companies, SSE and Centrica. In the last fiscal year

British owned companies, SSE and they made combined earnings of £4

billion. But they invested £3 billion. The remaining money went to

billion. But they invested £3 debt servicing and

billion. But they invested £3 which go into pension funds. Where

billion. But they invested £3 in these figures is the

profiteering? My figures that I in these figures is the

through their reporting to Ofgem and work done by other organisations,

Witch and others, it shows work done by other organisations,

Centrica's case they have something work done by other organisations,

like 8% return in profit work done by other organisations,

the retail side. That goes up to 24% work done by other organisations,

on the generation side. They have work done by other organisations,

passed on, in terms of profits, something I70 4% through evidence to

shareholders. But these figures don't show that. They have invested

shareholders. But these figures £3 billion. I am reporting what has

shareholders. But these figures been reported by Ofgem. Ofgem has

not accused them of been reported by Ofgem. Ofgem has

They may well be, but we don't have the evidence. I would accuse Ofgem

of not doing the job they the evidence. I would accuse Ofgem

doing, and they have held back from tackling the issue. It is

acknowledged, across the sector, tackling the issue. It is

across the big six, something tackling the issue. It is

50% of profits has gone tackling the issue. It is

dividends to shareholders. In Centrica's case it is 74%. On the

Centrica example, even though they have had the highest profit

Centrica example, even though they they have invested the least.

Centrica example, even though they fair to question. We are

Centrica example, even though they of time. None of us really know what

the true price of energy of time. None of us really know what

Labour's policy to reform his crucial. That

Labour's policy to reform his the market and we can't

Labour's policy to reform his difference. If they continue putting

Labour's policy to reform his prices up, even after your price

freeze, if they don't invest prices up, even after your price

way that they do, do you rule out wholesale

way that they do, do you rule out Absolutely. I want a more

way that they do, do you rule out competitive market and that is why

we are resetting it. You are competitive market and that is why

watching Sunday Politics. competitive market and that is why

in just over 20 minutes I will be competitive market and that is why

looking at the week ahead with Hello and this is the

political panel and Hello and this is the Sunday

Politics. Coming up: On the eve of the Conservative party conference,

our political editor talks to the prime minister about Franklin,

children's centres and the threat of —— fracking.

Welcome to my guests. Kent county council could be in line for a bill

of millions of pounds for years to PFI come, paying for contracts on

academy schools. The council lost its battle with the government and

will have to pay £1 million a year to maintain the building and

facilities at the absolute Academy. —— absolute. This could have far

reaching applications. Paul, this was a Labour government initiative

PFI, . It sounds like it could be disastrous. It was started by the

previous Conservative government. The imperative was so that the

buildings could be built. It was worth it to repair the schools and

hospitals at the time. Now we are paying in retrospect. Raymond, this

highlights what a grey area the whole subject of academies is. It's

something that Michael Gove is enthusiastically putting through.

Let me make it clear, academies are doing exceptionally well. Looking at

the results from 2011 to 2012 and the GCSE results, they are

exceptionally high. It's a choice which parents can make, where their

child wants to go to school. We should give parents choice. The

thing with that, in my view, once a school becomes independent and

autonomous, it should carry that financial liability by itself,

rather than leaving it with the local authority. It's that money

which the local authority has can go to other schools.

The future of many of our ancient woodlands could be under threat if

they plan to widen the 821 near Tonbridge Kent is given the

go—ahead. —— A21. The government 's new planning guidelines places

presumption on favour of... In a minute, we will speak to the council

who thinks the road should get the go—ahead but first, our reporter

went to the woods to look at the arguments being made to save them.

Majestic and awe—inspiring. This woodland has taken more than 400

years to mature. But now its future may signal the few —— the fate of

other ancient woodlands around the country because 22 acres of these

words may have to make way for this. The decision on widening this

stretch of the A21 is being seen as a landmark ruling on the government

's new planning policy. We are concerned this will set a precedent

for other schemes where again, there are other options. Destruction is

avoidable. We don't want to see too many decisions coming out that lead

people down the route to think the easy option is to destroy the

ancient woodland. We are worried it would become a soft target. The

first major test of the National planning policy framework also

centred on ancient woodlands in Kent and its outcome last week has got

campaigners worried. They lost their fight to stop the destruction of 80

acres of oak wood near Maidstone to make way for a quarry expansion.

They had tried to force a judicial review of the decision made by the

Secretary of State for communities and local government, Eric pickles.

The decision has basically served a potential death sentence on every

single piece of ancient woodland in this country. No ancient woodland is

no say. This is a massive national crisis alone over Lib Dems are

hugely concerned about this. I hope now the Conservatives will start to

realise what this decision means. Conservationists say nothing can

make up for destroying this habitat as it has taken centuries to evolve.

Some parts of the woodlands around the road may also be designated as a

site of special scientific interest. But this fight is not just a matter

of protecting the environment. They are taking the easy option. Quite

often, road expansion is a short—term fix. Studies show that

soon after the road widening, short—term fix. Studies show that

transport expands to fit capacity available. We would rather see a

more holistic solution, whether that's public transport or

tunnelling. A public enquiry as to whether to make it dual carriageway

finished this summer. The government says it could bring £400 million

worth of economic benefits, opponents argue this is the wrong

approach. This whole concept of economic growth at any cost has to

be challenged. Frankly, with economic growth you get further

environmental destruction, the environment is under huge pressure,

we are already living way beyond our means. There is also an argument

that woodlands themselves bring their own economic benefits. There

were 30 million visits to woodlands and forests in the south—east last

year. Natural England estimates that £180 million was spent during those

visits. And here in the south—east, we have four times more ancient

woodland and the national average. There is growing concern about the

fate of other ancient woodlands in the south—east. At a public meeting

in Maidstone this week, residents met to discuss the risk posed to a

dozen other sites in the borough. I think we are going to lose

irretrievably a lot of what is the green space around Maidstone. It is

supposed to be the Garden of England, Kent, and we are just

worried that all our green spaces are being swallowed up. The final

decision over the road expansion is due in the next few months. In the

meantime, campaigners say the fate of the country 's ancient woodlands

hangs in the balance. Will the government is planning

reforms mean economic interest will always take priority over the

environment? We are joined in the studio by the

leader of Tonbridge Borough Council. Hello. Anyone who regularly

uses that road will be in favour of whitening it. You convinced that

long—term, this is the answer to cutting congestion in the area? What

we need to look at is what we've got at the moment. There is a very

strong case for duelling the road on this four mile stretch. Festival,

congestion is a significant problem. In itself, that is a

barrier to economic activity and development. Second, we need to look

at the poor safety record of the road. More recently, with fatalities

that have taken place. There was a young girl in Sevenoaks who was

killed going down the hill. We now also need to consider that this

stretch of road serves the new strategic hospital at Pembrey. It is

regrettable that when the agreement was agreed by the government, they

didn't also locked in the duelling of the road. 90% of our congestion

is in towns. Anyone will tell you, the road coming into Tonbridge Wells

is very congested. All that will happen is the traffic get there

faster and stints in a Jew. It's fine on the weekend. Sometimes it is

very congested. If you see the road in peak hours, it's incredibly

congested. The congestion goes into Tonbridge itself from the

roundabout. A wider faster road to get those times will help. It will

help and it will also help businesses do their business. The

Federation of small businesses said that 75% of respondents said that

duelling the road will help the economic activity. It will mean loss

of ancient woodlands. These particular habitats. Does that

concern you at all? That is regrettable but we also need to

consider that we're talking about nine characters of woodland. That's

about 1% of the total... It is ancient woodland but I think we also

need to look ahead as well. Are we going to be stymied in terms of

economic growth because of what we've got from our heritage? I think

we need to have a sustainable economic development and this is the

right way to achieve that. What do you think, Raymond? This is the

wider question for this very green part of the world. As economic

development always worthwhile at the expense of ancient woodland? Not at

all. You have to find a balance between the two. The same debate was

had with high—speed one which came to Kent. Look at the benefits that

are coming to the south—east as a result of that. We have the same

argument with the motorway when it came about. You have to balance the

environment and economy. I think one goes with the other. You cannot do

one without other. Are you concerned about the mood music coming from

Conservative ministers, all talking about the sacrifices of the

environment for the sake of economic growth? If you look at the national

policy framework which talks about the presumption in favour of keeping

ancient woodland, and also preserving irreplaceable habitats,

the presumption is woodland. But in exceptional

circumstances, if the benefit outweighs the loss, you have to go

with the benefit. He will also have to see what you can do to preserve

the environment. Ultimately, you have to take into account the

environmental features. If it does go ahead, you have to do everything

you can to put into place environmental features to ensure

that. You must... Ed Miliband talk about building more housing and

forcing housing on rural communities. He's not going to lose

any votes by that kind of call, is it? The first thing the government

did was to abolish the infrastructure planning commission.

That means you don't have that overview so you can strategically

plan your 30s, your roads, your railways as well and the green

spaces that will enjoy. You have the regional spatial strategy which went

to concrete over 27 different towns who ran the country. At the expense

of our woodlands? One of our organisations has said housing is

the biggest threat to ancient woodlands. That is why you need an

overview. We have to recognise our population is growing and people

want to live an attractive places. All of these areas were originally

feels and now they are not. We have to encroach to some degree but it's

about getting the balance right. Final question, you want your road

to be widened. We understand that but are you not worried

president that sets for the president that sets foot of valuable

parts of our countryside? I think that it has to be a case—by—case

basis. The arguments over the duelling of this section of road

have been going on for years and years. We have recently had the

public enquiry. I wait with baited breath to see if we get the scheme

ready so that when the Chancellor releases the government —— money in

2015, we can have the scheme ready Now, it is week three of the party

conference season and the Conservatives are meeting in

Manchester. A survey of Tory councillors carried out for this

programme has found that 22% of them would support a pact with UKIP.

I am not looking for pacts. I think we need to give people a clear

choice at the next election. The British economy has turned a corner.

We are seeing more jobs, more new businesses. You're beginning to get

things moving again. Do you want to stick with us on the right track,

delivering a colony for hard—working people or do you want to protect ——

that at risk with Ed Miliband and his crazy plans to tax business out

of existence? I've got to do more to win people over. But I think when we

make the arguments about how we are getting control of immigration,

forming our —— reforming our welfare system, school standards are

raising, you're sorting out his problems, I think we will bring

people back. If not UKIP a pact with, or how about wooing back their

voters? There are concerns in the south—east. We are dealing with all

of those issues. Let me take one, the Europe issue which is important

to some voters. I have promised that if re—elected, we will have a wee

negotiation and then and in/out referendum.

Residents in Sittingbourne were shocked to find the council had

painted a series of short yellow lines around cars in the middle of

the night. Residents think they have crossed the line. Pathetic.

Horrendous. Never seen something so shocking. They are pulling no

punches and nor is he in Dale on the Brighton seafront. He was wrestled

away. He has apologised and received a caution from the police. Caroline

Lucas has gone one further and was charged for an offence this week.

The Brighton MP faces one charge of obstructing the highway. Lucas says

she believes in the right to peaceful process. Finally, Tracey

sparked a security alert in the House of Commons. Turns out it was

spider spray. Her house is currently invested with the creepy crawlies.

Poor old Tracey. I am not going to ask you whether you are scared of

spiders. What do you think of Caroline Lucas? She is standing up

for her values. I think it is reckless because the first thing we

do is to tell our children to stay within the law. If Caroline wants to

demonstrate peacefully, absolutely right and proper. Everyone has a

right to do that. But there is a line. If you cross that, whether you

are an MP, or a senior person out there, you are still subject to the

same law as other residents. On that basis, the courts should try it

fairly. It could win her votes. She is desperate to get arrested. She

was dying to be arrested. This will encourage you. What would you stand

for? I would say that you should stand up your principles. You must

act within the law. Thank you very much. That's all we've got time for.

So, we'll David Cameron's marriage tax break win over voters? How will

So, we'll David Cameron's marriage conference initiatives? And what is

UKIP leader Nigel FarageFarage up to with the Tories in Manchester?

On this business of a possible Tory- UKIP pact, in a general election,

let's see what David Cameron had to say about that earlier. I am not

looking for a packed. I think we need to give people a clear choice

at the general election. The British economy has turned a corner. We

at the general election. The British on the right track, we are seeing

more jobs, new businesses, we are beginning to get things moving

again. Do you want to stick with us, hard-working people, or do you want

to put it at risk with Ed Miliband hard-working people, or do you want

and his crazy plans to tax business out of existence? That was the Prime

there any appetite on the UKIP side discussions around the country,

there any appetite on the UKIP side would say no. It's being discussed,

is the media that is pushing this. It has reflected what has happened

conference season began. Labour It has reflected what has happened

trying to reclaim what I would call position. I'm not sure what the

Liberal Democrats or two, but the Conservatives are trying to react to

accusation they are lurching more to the right, which the media wants to

able to do some sort of pact with interpret as them possibly being

able to do some sort of pact with UKIP. Have you given any thought to

whatsoever. It is not on the radar. I have read comments, including

Carswell, the Eurosceptics, that they might form a potential, let's

call it, you know, cabinet. If there were UKIP members, I don't doubt

that Nigel Farage would be one of them. But I would reiterate it is

not discussions that are taking place. I am thinking more of an

have responded to that by saying, the moment, there are no ongoing

discussions. There is certainly constituency level or coming out of

believe any constituencies are Eurosceptics? I am not privy to

believe any constituencies are all 360 constituencies might be

discussing. All I can do is give you the example of the few I have seen

and know it is not on the agenda. Without a pact, it is perfectly

possible that you could fail to Without a pact, it is perfectly

a single seat at the next election, but put Ed Miliband into Downing

Street? Categorically not. There are a number of seats out there that are

very clear marginals, just like a number of seats out there that are

Izzard was. I believe there could be an MP -- just like Eastleigh was. If

you take enough votes away from an MP -- just like Eastleigh was. If

Tories, if you make sure that Labour wins? I will go back to the comment

I made. If you take Eastleigh as an example, a Liberal Democrat held

seat, even after that result, does not mean that UKIP is suddenly going

to be focusing on Tory seats. We are out there because people resonate

with our message. For the Liberal Democrats to make it abundantly

clear that they will not support a referendum, that they will not

support any discussion on leaving the queue, that could be a big

turn-off for voters. David Cameron says there is not going to be a

pact, Diane James says there is says there is not going to be a

going to be one. There might be says there is not going to be a

or at a constituency level. But says there is not going to be a

seems clear to me that there will not be a national one. So, does

David Cameron have a UKIP strategy? The only encouraging thing for

UKIP's successful David Cameron that the moment that he would only

that their support is so enormous that the moment that he would only

really need to win back maybe a third or a quarter of its to make a

decisive difference to the Tory share of the vote in 2015. The

question becomes, how much of that UKIP support is up for grabs? A

question becomes, how much of that last week suggested that 47% of

current UKIP voters would consider voting Tory if it meant preventing

Ed Miliband becoming Prime Minister. That number goes up to 57% against

recovery. So, plausibly, there is secondary question is, what does

David Cameron do to win over those people? He has tried a Europe will

referendum and it didn't work. He tried travelling up his immigration

policy and that didn't work. I wonder if it is time. You wait until

the run-up to 2015, when they start to focus on the explicit choice

Cameron, and that is what shifts a Cameron. We heard from William Hague

earlier in the programme, the Tory line is that if you vote UKIP you

could end up with Ed Miliband in Downing Street. That is the simple

appeal, isn't it? Yes, and I think Diane is right, I think the European

elections will show a good showing for UKIP. It is deemed the one where

you can play away. I think it will be hard for people to get excited

about that, I think that bounce be hard for people to get excited

fade away. In Eastleigh, they had a good ground game, that is difficult

for UKIP, that don't have that machinery sorted. How are they going

to fund that operation? But the machinery sorted. How are they going

bounce could fade away after the European elections. Even if they go

election, they are still immensely dangerous to the Conservative Party.

But there is really only two things David Cameron can do. One is to

But there is really only two things boring and talk about helping people

with their mortgage, helping with bread and butter issues. The second

thing is, those European actions, he tends to the natural Conservative

voters and says, you have had your fun, next year do you want me or Ed

Miliband us your prime and? The fun, next year do you want me or Ed

danger with David Cameron is saying, of course, there is not going to be

a pact, the danger is you will get a repeat of the 1977 election. John

Major said, famously, do not bind my hands. A series of Conservative

personally rule out membership of the euro, when the Conservative

membership was wait and see. That looked like a Prime Minister not in

charge of his party. The danger looked like a Prime Minister not in

Let's assume you do really well looked like a Prime Minister not in

the European actions and there is a widespread expectation that you

will, even in Downing Street. They might be managing expectations.

will, even in Downing Street. They stops you fading away as the general

election approaches? A number of reasons. As has been mentioned,

election approaches? A number of whole issue of the referendum pledge

has been proved to be an absolute nonsense. It is so contingent on if

I am re-elected, if it's not a coalition government, is, if, if.

That was fooled nobody. The issue of where voters are coming from, it is

because they have lost faith in where voters are coming from, it is

David Cameron says. There is nothing he is going to say that is convince

think that is my view and the view of a lot of UKIP. I am told that

they have expunged Nigel Farage of a lot of UKIP. I am told that

the fringes? It is a great scoop, on the front page. They are outside the

ring of steel. Even so, they won't programme, so they must be worried

paid money for adverts in the Tory about something. His people have

paid money for adverts in the Tory brochure and his name has been taken

out. Speaking of people the Tory brochure and his name has been taken

leadership is worried about, Boris Johnson, are we in any doubt as

leadership is worried about, Boris interview that he is now beginning

his long march back to Parliament? He does express feeling slightly sad

during the Syria debate that he He does express feeling slightly sad

not there, on the political front line to participate. I still do

not there, on the political front see why it is in his interest is to

move before 2015. No, I don't think he will move before, I think he

move before 2015. No, I don't think sending a signal to the existing

Tories in the Commons that when sending a signal to the existing

Me Dave goes, I will be back? He has the Vince Cable problem, if you

Me Dave goes, I will be back? He has the same thing too many times,

people get bored and factor it in. The interesting thing is him saying

that people have seven years before the electorate get bored of them. He

might be cresting that. He doesn't want to be Prime Minister, he is

much more ambitious than that. He wants to be an emperor. He was

asked, which Roman emperor would you like to be compared to? You said,

important. I don't think you are thinking big enough. See what I

important. I don't think you are to put up with, every Sunday? By

virtue of being born in the US, to put up with, every Sunday? By

could be president. Unlike Arnold Schwarzenegger. How about a deal

with Boris? He has made no secret, after Eastleigh, that he would be

open to a discussion. Let's call it no more than a discussion. He has

been adamant, however, he does not see any reason, any justification or

any opportunity where he would be able to have that discourse with

any opportunity where he would be David Cameron. Maybe it comes down

to that on both sides. I've no idea. We know that the Tories will be

to that on both sides. I've no idea. more Eurosceptic after the next

election? I can't imagine David Cameron's successor will be somebody

that supports EU membership in ideological direction of the party.

The leadership contest will be about 2018. If you are standing, when

this is a great deal for Britain membership, are you going to say

this is a great deal for Britain because the Prime Minister has

turned to leave rapid change two words in the working Time directive,

turned to leave rapid change two or are you going to become a leader

by saying, I want out? What would be a good conference for David Cameron

eye-catching announcement related to living standards. May be a clearer

line on energy prices? That would certainly help, that fightback has

been rubbish so far. The thing we should be looking out for are not

the polls immediately after, but the ones about the end of October, when

everything gets to settle down and then we will see what happens. In a

word, what is Nigel Farage out to get at the Tory conference? What is

he doing, other than mischief? I could almost say revenge. Revenge on

Mr Cameron? Yes. You know? Lord Ashcroft was there at the Labour

conference. You call it mischief, but there is every reason why he

should be there. We all call it mischief. Thanks for being with

should be there. We all call it Join me on Daily Politics for live

coverage of the Conservative Party conference tomorrow morning from

11:30 on BBC Two. We will bring conference tomorrow morning from

George Osborne's speech live and uninterrupted. I'll be back next

weekend when guests will include former Conservative Chancellor

Kenneth Clarke. Remember, if it former Conservative Chancellor

Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.