13/10/2013 Sunday Politics South East

Morning, welcome to the veritable Sunday Politics. We have Alastair

Charmichael. We'll ask him what Sunday Politics. We have Alastair

Moore hadn't. Ken Clarke just keeps has that his predecessor Michael

Moore hadn't. Ken Clarke just keeps going on and on and on. He'll bang

Free of the shackles of Government, former Energy Secretary Chris Huhne

will be with us. We'll ask him for Diane Abbott will join us. That

nasty Ed Miliband sent her packing last week. We'll nined out why.

In the capital, a report by the Conservatives on the London Assembly

says we've misunderstood the problem of human trafficking and that men

pundits who we try to shuffle out of a job but failed miserably, Mick

watt, Miranda Green Andijan an Ganesh. They'll Tweet like mad as if

Is Ed Miliband's Labour Party moving chid owe Cabinet reshuffle was seen

a a shift to the lot of. Two have announced policy changes which could

Pensions Secretary Rachel Reeves says Labour will be tougher on the

Tories. While Tristram Hunt says Labour loves Tory-style free schools

after all. Here he is on the BBC viewers. If you are a group of

parents, social entrepreneurs, teachers, interested in setting

parents, social entrepreneurs, school in areas where you need new

school place, the Labour Government will be on your side. That's free

enterprise and innovation. It will will be on your side. That's free

be in areas of need. We have a school places crisis going on. It

teachers in these schools. And accountability. What is going on

with the Al Madina school is because of terrible mistakes with Michael

changed, the change of tone is I'm not sure if the policies have

changed, the change of tone is remarkable, both on welfare and

changed, the change of tone is schools. A significant change of

reshuffle on the Labour frontbench last week was init wered as a purge

of Blair rights. It seemed to be a purge of anti-reform thinking.

Rachel Reeves was not saying anythi different on substance but saying

Labour will be tough than the Tories on welfare. You've seen that clip

from Tristram, free schools will be allowed to be set up in areas of

need. Greater oversight. But a completely different change of tone,

we are on the side of parents and social entrepreneurs who want to set

these up. A different change. Why are they doing this? On education,

polarised. You've had the Michael department. This weekend, we've

polarised. You've had the Michael leaked memos from one of Michael

Gove's advisers which are extreme views about the state of education.

And on the other side teaching unions. It hasn't led to a healthy

debate which represents what parents want out of schools or employers.

This is a huge move from the Labour Party to sound more reasonable.

This is a huge move from the Labour have been silent on education which

is a huge policy area on the left. Is this a focus group-driven change?

They've seen the polls. Welfare reforms are hugery popular and free

only apiece the focus groups by changing the policy substantially. I

always thought a test for this Labour reshuffle was not whether Ed

Miliband would promote Blair rights, it is clear he did, it is whether

they would be allowed to be Blair rights. When Stephen Twigg carried

the education portfolio it was clear his own views were closer to the

Government than he was allowed to let on. He was constrained. There is

no point of giving Tristram Hunt this job if he is not allowed to say

what he thinks. I wouldn't mind betting privately he thinks free

schools should be available beyond just areas of need. He hasn't yet

defined need. It could be, we've run schools are so bad we need schools.

If that is it, it is the same Asics itsing Government policy. In they

unsatisfactory that's no different. He wanted to say he was in favour of

higher educational standards and rigour, he had to tell the audience

he has a Cambridge PhD to attack Michael Gove. That was difficult for

Tristram Hunt he had to mention that. Is that worth something, a PhD

from Cambridge? Obviously to him it is. He said they would demand proper

teaching qualifications. That could teaching? Independent schools do not

have to have teachers with formal teaching qualifications. I've never

been to one? What about you? That decision by Michael Gove to allow

free schools to employ nonunionised and non-trained people, so he has to

Watch this space. The dust settled after the party resufficients. Do

the Tories look a bit more like Britain. Do the Tories look more

#4 With reshuffles, you're never really certain. There's whispers,

rumours, guesses. But the only way to know it is underway is keeping

beady eyes on a front door. Up until now, the only way we knew who was in

and who was out was who came walking down this bit of Downing Street

and who was out was who came walking a smile on their face after going to

see the boss. The once who are to be sacked, they usually go round the

back. Not this time. No, something new alerted us all. The-PM started

can't remember a triple decker reshuffle where you've three parties

changing ministerial teams at the resufficient happened on Twitter.

Not that the press stopped watching the door as well. News was a bit

Charmichael replaced Michael Moore, the first to be pounced on. I'm

disappointed to be leaving office now but pleased at what I've been

able to achieve in the last couple of years. Not as pleased as one

imagines as the man receiving the welcome that went on, and on and

simultaneously having Jeremy Browne, in a sense seen off the premises of

the Home Office in conspiracy to let # Blowing hi Jude through a traffic

Democrats. We tend to think they are herbivorous. Sacking a Cabinet

Minister, another minister, Jeremy Browne. By lunch time, the Tory

ranks were shifting too. The PM Browne. By lunch time, the Tory

to boost the numbers of telegenic women walking into Government and

turning perceptions around. He tipped a so-called flatcap to men

backgrounds with room for some which fitted neither label but are friends

of George Osborne. And, all the while, those new Tory ministers

of George Osborne. And, all the learning of Labour's changes. Labour

too knows the value of new young blood striding into the limelight.

Again some with TV experience of that. Tristram Hunt and Gloria de

peer row would be hard to describe as hard left. But Blairbrushing

peer row would be hard to describe past out of the picture seemed to be

the name of the day. Liam Byrne With Diane Abbott also gone, was

this really a Blair right cull? It depends what you mean. Blair right

used to mean someone who wanted depends what you mean. Blair right

Blair to be leader of the Labour Party. Somebody who worked closely

with him. Now it means sometimes people who believe in a certain

with him. Now it means sometimes of ideologyies or ideas. There are

still very much those kind of Blair rights within the party. But we

still very much those kind of Blair seeing the group around Tony Blair

are not long assassin flew enjoys as they once were. By evening, it was

over. New bees were sharing the ministers quietly thanked commits

raters. Or -- commiserators. Or ministers quietly thanked commits

disified. How much much someone standing here might want it to be

the case, you are unlikely to get someone coming out of that do going

"how could." And running off crying! And the brand, spanking new Scottish

Secretary Alastair Charmichael joins us from Orkney on a line that hasn't

been used since the fleet was used in the outbreak of World War I! I

wasn't around at the time. I'm hearing you loud and clear. Why

wasn't around at the time. I'm you agreed to run a department?

wasn't around at the time. I'm you wanted to abolish six years

wasn't around at the time. I'm Hello? Maybe our connections are not

Charmichael. Can you hear me? I Hello? Maybe our connections are not

hear you now. There was a nasty second there where you disappeared.

Let me try the question again. Why have you agreed to run a department

you wanted to abolish six years have you agreed to run a department

Because this is the, probably one of the most important jobs in British

politics at the moment. To ensure that Scotland remains part of the

UK. Even when I was talking about the reconfiguration of rep sen Taigs

of Scotland -- representation of Scotland within Whitehall, there was

always a job to be done. That is true in spades now. I will focus on

making sure the UK Government has a real voice in that debate. What

making sure the UK Government has a you that Michael Moore didn't have?

Look, I think Michael Moore did you that Michael Moore didn't have?

excellent job. The work he did delivering the Edinburgh agreement

clear legal and decisive referendum, the work delivering extra powers to

substantial piece of work. I'm not friend of mine. I will say that

substantial piece of work. I'm not we go forward into this, this is now

about the actual debate itself. we go forward into this, this is now

will be putting the case, with some passion, I hope, for Scotland to

just some abstract debate about nationhood, sovereignty, this is a

their livelihoods, the cost of their mortgage. That and an awful lot

challenge. I understand that. But if you're being put in there to save

the union, every pole has the no -- poll has the no campaign margin

alley ahead. Mr Moore was doing pretty well to save the union. I

suspect you've been given the job to Scotland? And lieu, you misread

suspect you've been given the job to situation if you -- Andrew, you

misread the situation new think anybody is going to be the person

who will save the union. The people who will save the union are the

people of Scotland if they turn who will save the union are the

next year and vote to save the union. We have to put the case for

that. That is what I will be doing. Look at the position of your own

party. You came fourth in the last Scottish parentry elections. You

were even behind the Conservatives. The latest poll has you still in

fourth. Are you there because you're a bruiser and you will pep up the

Liberal Democrats opportunity in Scotland. If I had a pound for

everybody to referred to me as being Scotland. If I had a pound for

a bruiser, I wouldn't need to be sitting here this morning. I could

have retired by now. The truth of this, if I can address it once and

for all, I have done probably one of the most complex and subtle jobs in

three-and-a-half years, Liberal Democrat Chief Whip in a Coalition

survived in that job a week, let alone three-and-a-half years, if I

was the sort of person who went around picking unnecessary fights.

So, can we just please forget about this business about being a bruiser.

As far as the position of the party in the polls, this is true also

As far as the position of the party the referendum vote, opinion polls

are a snapshot. They are not a prediction of what will happen in

the future. I will be out there putting the case. Neither the next

election nor the referendum is one or lost yet. One of the things I

really want to be guarding against because we are a good margin ahead

today, 12 months out from the actual polling day, that it is in the bag.

Believe me, Andrew, it is not. As you know, wasn't for the Liberal

Democrats. Not just talking about the polls. You came fourth in the

You said you were happy to facial ex-Salmond in a TV debade. Should

David Cameron face him? I am happy debate. Should David Cameron face

him? No, because that allows Alex Nationalists to portray this as

him? No, because that allows Alex sort of contest or choice between a

vision of Scottish social democracy and English conservativism, which it

is not. This is a debate that has to is not. This is a debate that has to

be held in Scotland about the future of Scotland amongst Scots. David

Cameron has a very important part in Scotland's public life, but he is

not Scottish and I think he will accept Commies edit himself in fact,

the person who should be debating Darling. He has got a Scottish name

wealthiest of Scotland at some stage in the past. Anyway, you described

the campaign to keep the union together as lacking passion, were

you referring to the campaign or referring to Alistair Darling. I

think what I was saying is that referring to Alistair Darling. I

we move into this new stage, and Alistair Darling said it himself, we

are now campaigning for people Alistair Darling said it himself, we

hearts because if you look at the range of papers the Government has

published, it is pretty clear the arguments lie in relation to the

head. I am not giving up the battle for the hearts and Scotland because

there is a good strong case, as somebody who is proud to be Scottish

and to be British, for Scotland somebody who is proud to be Scottish

remain part of the UK. You come somebody who is proud to be Scottish

distilleries and I understand you celebratory drink for your new post.

Not a drop has touched my lips. celebratory drink for your new post.

supporting local business! I will be making up for lost time on the

supporting local business! I will be of November, I will be doing it

supporting local business! I will be aid of Macmillan Cancer care and if

website, they can donate. It is worthwhile. I cannot think of a

better cause. One Cabinet minister who many thought might get Reef

better cause. One Cabinet minister Clarke. Welcome to Sunday Politics.

minorities, where did you fit in? I minorities, where did you fit in? I

would describe myself as the elder statesman, to be polite, but it

would describe myself as the elder difficult to replace them. I enjoy

it. It is a great privilege to have a role in Cabinet and I will carry

on as long as David wants me to a role in Cabinet and I will carry

I have seen many reshuffles, they are dreadful and I seem to have

survived them so far. Did David Cameron talk to you before this

reshuffle? No, he didn't. I would have had expected a phone call,

asking, how do you think about stepping down, but he didn't and my

role is one of giving my wit and wisdom to the Cabinet and meetings

of the Security Council so he has got to put up with me a bit longer.

You said you are going to stand again at the next election, why

You said you are going to stand you keep going? What do you hope to

achieve in politics? I am mostly a political anorak, I have been since

I was very small, by the process of politics but the older I get I get

governance of the country and at the moment the combination of problems

is quite appalling. The difficulty of tackling the modern world is

is quite appalling. The difficulty difficult and I find it fascinating.

The old argument that attracts every decent person into politics, you

might be able sometimes to make decent person into politics, you

bit of difference, and I try to decent person into politics, you

that. I try not to hark back on decent person into politics, you

experience but we will have a lot of tough problems which I think the

Conservative Government will have to tackle. You opposed referenda on

Maastricht, the Lisbon Treaty, you were even against one on Britain

adopting the euro. It must follow that you are against the referenda

on Britain's membership to the EU? I accountable to the long-term and

representatives, but this is a minority now and my colleagues have

firmly decided a referendum needs to be held to settle the question of

Britain's relationship with the European Union which I think is

Britain's relationship with the of the most important things in

Britain's place in the modern world politicians are able to look after

the living standards, the economy, the safety against terrorism. Last

the living standards, the economy, summer you said that only extreme

nationalists wanted a silly EU referendum. It follows your party

must be full of extremely silly nationalists. The people who are

desperate to have a referendum are all the people who actually want to

referendum will involve the public and people like me have got to get

across to the public, don't just feel angry about the last thing

across to the public, don't just read in the newspaper about what the

commission is or is not doing, do commission is or is not doing, do

bear in mind this is our base in the modern world. We happen to be a

leading member, almost as valuable and rich as the Americans, from

influence in events. That is not just how the politicians get on

influence in events. That is not politicians look after us when we

spilling over from the Middle East, or we face public services being

threatened. You didn't even turn up to vote for the bill which will

threatened. You didn't even turn up engagements on the Friday concerned.

It seemed to get through without my participation. You didn't want to be

seen voting for something your heart Look, many of your colleagues I

seen voting for something your heart interviewed say that if the choice

was between the state -- the status quo with the European Union and

leaving, they would leave. The truth is that you would vote to stay in

even on the status quo, wouldn't supporting the EU to leave now if I

got chance. I think our economy supporting the EU to leave now if I

investment, as in Washington last been if we were outside the EU.

investment, as in Washington last week. We are trying to roll forward

the prospect of free trade and I have to reassure Americans that

the prospect of free trade and I are not likely to leave the EU to

That is true but it also needs reform. The cry for reform, which is

particularly Germany, is a good reform. The cry for reform, which is

Even if David Cameron came back reform. The cry for reform, which is

nothing from Brussels, you would still vote to stay in, correct?

one which is dwindling in comparison with others, in the modern world it

would be dangerous. I also think the dangers of the Middle East and the

dangers of some of the countries disengage. I will take that as a

strengthen the case, and of some members of the public don't agree

persuaded when David delivers his reforms. The latest poll gives

Labour a ten point lead over the Tories and the reason why it has a

ten point lead is because UKIP are up there with 18% of the vote and

ten point lead is because UKIP are the Tory vote has slumped in the

Paul to 27%. How would you see off UKIP? By saying you need a strong

Paul to 27%. How would you see off and effective Government. We faced

terrible problems. Every Government I have been in has been behind in

the polls. This Government is not as popular as the previous Government I

have served in under the three previous prime ministers. When you

get an election, people have to previous prime ministers. When you

themselves who do we want to decide the issues of war and peace in this

country? Who do we want to get us out of our economic problems. I

don't think Ed Miliband is up to it. That generalised stuff will not

don't think Ed Miliband is up to it. off UKIP. People will not listen to

that. When people answer an opinion poll, they tell you how annoyed

that. When people answer an opinion are by something that has recently

upset them, but people are more sensible than this. Every Government

I have served in has been behind in the polls. At a general election you

have to mobilise the public to start thinking, who do we want to govern

us? They did take over a calamitous important problems to be decided

going forward. UKIP represents anti-immigration, anti-foreigners,

anti-Europe, anti-politics but I don't think it will get 18% of the

Thank you. Once upon a time, a politician whose career ended in

disgrace might choose to lie low for a while, perhaps to spend a bit

disgrace might choose to lie low for time tending the tulips and doing

the odd bit of charity work. Not Chris Huhne. He walked free from

prison only five months ago but Chris Huhne. He walked free from

former Energy Secretary is already back in the public eye - a column in

the Guardian, a job with a renewable interview. So is he working on a

political rehabilitation? Chris Politics. The answer to that is

clearly know, and thank you for inviting me back. You have set your

career in politics is over so what does the future hold for you? I

career in politics is over so what happy doing what I am doing, I am

passionate about green energy and climate change, so I am doing things

on that front in terms of business non-governmental organisations,

on that front in terms of business I am doing a column for the Guardian

on Mondays. You obviously get a I am doing a column for the Guardian

of material from the Sunday Politics to write about. Have you embarked on

political rehabilitation? It was clear from the point of view of

political rehabilitation? It was George when I was sentenced, he

rehabilitating you, because I had not offended for ten years, it was

actually about stopping people like you, Andrew, Ron doing the same

thing. It was a deterrent effect for the public. That is I think why

thing. It was a deterrent effect for prosecution was brought. I had not

offended for ten years on this, rehabilitate yourself in the public?

coalition to the bitter end? Or should they re-establish their own

Coalition agreement is for the whole Parliament, and the Lib Dems are

going to stay, and should stay. What would be a good result for the Lib

Dems in 2015? The loss of ten, would be a good result for the Lib

interesting election because I think you will have essentially three

party leaders, all of whom are negative ratings so it will be a

battle between the walking wounded. In those circumstances, in my view,

the Lib Dems can come out very well. But you will lose seats, won't

the Liberal Democrats do badly in next year's European elections,

the Liberal Democrats do badly in could come fourth on fifth behind

leadership be in jeopardy? I've could come fourth on fifth behind

in countless cycles where we've could come fourth on fifth behind

very low poll ratings. The normal pickup to the subsequent general

election on average has been 10 percentage points. So he's not in

jeopardy? I think Nick will be there at the next general election. I

think he'll lead the party into at the next general election. I

next general election. I expect we'll do much better than most

people think. If we are heading we'll do much better than most

another hung Parliament, which is Let's be honest, you'd rather be in

coalition with the Labour Party Let's be honest, you'd rather be in

have a repeat of the Conservatives? One of the key things I sawed to

colleagues, whatever your personal preference, I used to be a Labour

Party member, you can derive from that I'm on the left of centre of

the party. I always said to my colleagues in the party, it is

the we are in politics because we are Liberal Democrats, not because

we are either Conservatives or second best Labour. If you don't

take that view, you don't have any bargaining position when it comes to

coalition. You have to be able, genuinely, to do a coalition with

either of the other parties. I understand that, but you'd prefer

Labour? Your personal preference really should not come into this. It

is about making sure you get the best possible deal for the things

you get that with one party rather than another, that's fine. You stand

up for Liberal Democrat values, than another, that's fine. You stand

for Conservative or Labour second best values. You said you're keeping

up your interest in energy matters. Is Ed Miliband right to promise

up your interest in energy matters. temporary price freeze? There's

up your interest in energy matters. pop ewe louse posturing. It is not a

sensible policy. It was tried in California in 2,000 and 2001 which

led to blackouts. We had the Prime Minister promising we should sift

everybody automatically to the unfortunately we're at the stage in

the political cycle where we are getting clap trap. You're against

the freeze? It is a bad idea when we are trying to encourage investment.

When the market can give us some of the lowest gas and electricity

son-in-law of the lowest? Not our base price? The other European Ian

prices are only higher because they put a lot more taxes on to it? Our

base energy prices are among the highest in Europe? No, if you look

at EU comparisons in what goes out to people's households. That's after

all the taxes have been put on them? to people's households. That's after

green taxes is George Osborne with should no better. One the-hip ok

not want it. We do not need it to agreement because the Conservatives

not want it. We do not need it to electricity system. It was a revenue

raising measure by the Tories. It set off a whole load of hairs about

green taxes which are now coming home to roost. Final point to you,

wish we'd more time to talk, you're a big supporter of Leveson-style

press regulation. Will you stop writing for The Guardian if it

refuses to sign up to the Leveson writing for The Guardian if it

charter? I think that's neither writing for The Guardian if it

nor there. The Guardian gives me a writing for The Guardian if it

great platform. If it doesn't sign up to what you believe in will

great platform. If it doesn't sign support it? No because I'm sure

they'll allow me to make that that point. I think newspapers will sign

they'll allow me to make that that up for it. They've had a collapse in

they'll allow me to make that that public trust and confidence in

recent years. Unparalleled. public trust and confidence in

need a third party public trust and confidence in

say these guys have cleaned public trust and confidence in

act. If they are going to get trust back and they will.

act. If they are going to get trust haven't signed up, which

act. If they are going to get trust you can come back and we'll talk

about it. You're watching the Sunday politics.

Coming up later: A burden on talk

Coming up later: A burden on public services or an addition which could

benefit us all? We'll be looking at the findings of

a Kent County Council report which assesses the possible impact of

Romanian and Bulgarian immigration on the county.

Joining me in the studio today are Tracey Crouch, the Conservative MP

for Chatham and Aylesford, and Roger Latchford, the leader of the UK

Independence Party, and therefore leader of the opposition, on Kent

County Council. Welcome to you both. Now, it's just too good an

opportunity not to ask you both about the announcement last week by

the leader of Roger's party, Nigel Farage, that he's planning to stand

as an MP at the next general election. And — Tories beware — he's

eyeing up a seat in Kent. Thanet South has been mentioned, and he

also says he's been considering Folkestone and Hythe.

This must be quite worrying for Conservatives in the Southeast? We

will have to wait and see what he decides. I think many of us across

the south—east are very proud of the record of government and where we

stand on European issues so we will have to wait and see what he

decides. This could highlight a problem of relying on Nigel. We do

not rely on them. We are not a 1—person party. Where does that

leave us? At the conference, Nigel made it quite clear that he will not

declare his intentions until after the European election. See as having

some fun at the Conservatives' expense. Look at what happened. We

saw Paul Carter's face at the time. He was worried he would lose

control. It is interesting in terms of political environment across the

county and we'll have to wait and see what happens across the coming

months. This is democracy and people have every right to vote how they

wish. They spoke at the local elections and we will have to wait

and see what happens at the general election. We are proud of our record

in government and I think people judge us on the fact that we're

making a difference. Now, they were once the hub of the

community — a bustling place for people to shop and meet. But now,

many of our town centres are home to empty shops and a dwindling

footfall. In the South East, more town centre shops have closed in the

last year than in any other part of the UK. So, can our local

politicians reverse this worrying trend? Bhavani Vadde went to Dover

to look at one radical idea. Once upon a time in a land not so

far away, the butcher, the baker, were part and parcel of a thriving

High Street. But now town centres are struggling and Dover is no

exception. This week, Dover District Council debated whether to ask the

government for a new power to impose a local levy on the large storage to

help smaller high—street shops. But the idea was rejected. This man

thinks it was the wrong decision. It is sucking the life out of town. If

they raised money from out—of—town supermarkets, it could be spent on

regenerating parts of the town which really need it. The whole of the

pedestrian precinct could do with some money being spent to make it a

more attractive place to walk around. A levy is already being

charged in Northern Ireland and Scotland on large supermarkets. The

revenue is used to help small businesses and public services.

Dover councillor Peter Wallace put forward a motion for a levy of his

miss rates paid by large retailers. He thinks it could raise up to £1

million. We could use the money to give lower business rates to shops

to help keep them going and free parking. We are desperate for a high

turnover. We need as many people as Canterbury and other places. Free

parking would really attract people. In Scotland and Northern Ireland, it

has not put food prices up in supermarkets. No jobs have been lost

and it has worked. We don't have to be the guinea pig for this. Six

other councils in England are discussing similar action. The

campaign group Local Works once local authorities to submit

proposals to government under the 2007 sustainable communities act.

The cost of this is absolutely tiny. It is less than 1000 of big

companies revenues. The revenues it will generate for local communities

will be very significant. Margate's town centre was the focus of a make

over. She recommended encouraging independent start—ups. It seems that

is not enough to ensure the health of high streets. It is not just

independent shops disappearing from the High Street. The number of

branded stores shutting down has risen as well. In the south—east

last year, we had the most net closures of retail chain shops. We

lost around 400 stores across the region. Back at this cafe, these

customers think something needs to be done to boost the fortunes of

Dover's town centre. If they want to make it like it used to be, the

changes we have had are not good. It has gone down and down. It is not

lovely like it used to be. We must ensure we do not have empty shops.

The empty shops need to be tidied up to make it look a little more

attractive. We should generally try to bring business into the

south—east. High streets need help if they are ever to return to their

heyday. Why aren't councils chomping at the idea of a local tax to help

them do just that? I'm joined now by Councillor Paul

Watkins, leader of Dover District Council. His party rejected that

idea of the council imposing a levy on larger shops to support a town

centre revival. The first question is why? We have taken a pragmatic

local approach. This is supposed to be a local initiative. This is a

local response. We have a town centre scheme of our own which we

are trying to bring forward is to encourage larger shop is to the town

centre. There is a potential waterfront development as well which

will bring vitality back to the town centre. One man said you were

sucking the life out of the town. They want their lovely little town

back. What you have done so far doesn't appear to have worked. We

have announced a multiplex cinema scheme coming soon in the town

centre. And restaurants and so on. What is wrong with the principle of

charging huge supermarket companies who can afford it in order to do

something radical like give people free parking. They will come to the

shops name. This is part of a bigger problem. This is a gesture really

and the real issue is business rates on town centre shops. We will

support any campaign that takes the relief or supports town centre shops

in the uniform business rate. I don't understand why you reject the

idea. It sounds like it could be to do with party politics. It has

worked elsewhere. It has worked in Northern Ireland and Scotland. Why

not give it a go? There is only one supermarket in the area that this

would apply to. The money gained from it would not be enough to do

the types of things the public indicate. The estimates are £1

million. Those figures are wrong. There is only one supermarket and

the figures represented their don't add up to that. There is no way Eric

Pickles will pass a new taxation law and even if you did, they would want

their take out of this as well. This highlights that the government

effort to regenerate town centres has failed so far. I don't agree

with that. This is early is important we support our high

streets. There is a lot of work going on in one of the high streets

in the border of my constituency to make sure there is a good mix of

shops and attract people to come there. It is a radical idea, isn't

it? I think it is right that we don't burden big businesses. It

would be something like 1000th of their revenue. They already pay

corporation tax, business tax. We are talking about supermarkets here.

This is an issue where you don't want to deter big businesses which

employ a lot of people who spend money in the local economy. There is

evidence that supermarkets take jobs from the local community. A

supermarket will employ probably a hundred people who will make money

and take it into the local economy. There is a mix of small shops which

might lose employees as a consequence of big business. And you

are not concerned about those? This proposal has been rejected in

Bristol and Gloucester and I think it is the right decision to reject

extra taxes on businesses who already face a huge tax burden. I

have made this quite clear. I am surprised by Tracey's response. I

strongly support this idea. Anything we can do to encourage high streets

to survive, basically, this scheme, to me, was a gimmick. The top end of

Margate High Street is derelict. I believe that the larger supermarkets

can afford an additional levy, provided it is ring fenced by

district councils to take away parking charges in the high streets.

So, you as the UKIP opposition leader on Kent County Council will

support Labour in Dover? Yes. This is not politics, it is what is best

for people. If I want to see the High Street survive, and the old and

frail who don't have cars and can't go out of town and rely on local

shops, they can only do it if those shops survive. Let's look at it

again. I know there should be government approval but the fact

that it has failed in the past doesn't mean to say it can't be

reconsidered for the future. So, something needs to be done.

Something has to be done for the future of high streets. It is

important that there is a reason for people to come into high streets and

stop I'm just not convinced that levying an extra tax on big business

will do any good. Now, the migration of Romanians and

Bulgarians would have both positive and negative economic impacts,

according to a new report by Kent County Council. It looks at what

might happen next year when restrictions on work are lifted for

people from both those European countries. But the numbers may

provide fuel for both sides in what is already a heated debate. The

report estimates the influx of workers could add £3 million to the

cost of public services in Kent, but it also calculates it could bring

£70 million worth of benefits to the national economy. Let's cross back

to Dover, where we're now joined by Councillor Martin Whybrow, the Green

Party councillor on Kent County Council. First of all, why should

Kent have to take that hit of £3 million in order to bring £70

million to the rest of the Well, I think the first thing to

point out is that this is an estimate. I am not even sure that it

is an estimate. It is quite a strange report. On one hand, it is

evenhanded. It points out that immigrants are light users of public

services and there are economic benefits from immigration. But,

there is a big hole in the report. There is a huge question over

numbers. Yes, the report says this is a series of what Fs.

Particularly, the two parties represented here... The principle

that Kent County Council should take a hit to benefit the national

economy. Is that fair? The report says there is the potential for

additional costs because of public services used by an influx of

immigrants. Overall, the report is evenhanded. It points out the

benefits as well. It points out costs as well. The added pressure

for places at schools. Housing. Your party believes immigration is good

for society but we have limited resources. We can't afford these

people, can we? Let's put it into context. The immigration question is

put into the political spotlight by certain parties. There are many

pressures on public services and schools and social housing and a lot

of the time immigration is the easiest thing to grasp at. Put into

the context of cuts, 40% cuts in five years from 2010, weighed up

against the cost of any additional burden of immigration then you see

the other side of the argument. Your Southeast chair disagreed with the

report saying that £70 million of benefits could be brought. I had a

long discussion with the leader of Kent County Council. I realise that

a paper must be written but I do not believe the figures in it. I don't

like the figures. You like today £3 million. I would even question that.

I think it could be much higher. In this report, it identifies that

these immigrants provided that they come... This is our point. UKIP

would support immigration provided that those immigrants come in, work,

pay their taxes, national insurance and contribute to the economy. But

they have identified at the jobs as being domestic service, holding and

labouring. We have a high unemployment rate of indigenous

people. Actually, it says that migrant workers would be light users

of public service and are unlikely to use our hospitals. The economic

benefits would outweigh the cost. The trouble is, your party likes to

pick certain figures and prey on people's fears. We are clearly in

support of immigration, per se. But we want to make sure that immigrants

are not a burden on the country. We know the immigration subject has

drawn many people over to UKIP. Immigration has always been a

difficult subject for government, no matter which political party is in

power. I agree that immigration is good for the country but

uncontrolled immigration is not. We have seen a failure to control

immigration in recent years. We, in government, have tried to get to

grips with that. We have seen positive changes and reforms. An

Eastern European immigration, which is what we're talking about, I was

an adviser in opposition when the first set of countries joined Europe

and we made it clear that there had to the controls. The trouble is your

party is changing its language to bring voters back. You concerned

about the tone of the recently? We have not reacted or responded to

UKIP. They have raised and issue about immigration but it is a

national issue. And now a round up of the other

political events that you might have missed this week with Ed Baranski.

With some of the country's highest train fares in the south—east,

commuters were offered some relief this week. The government will cap

any rise at 6%. Norman this week. The government will cap

been appointed Home Office minister. In 2006, he claimed that David Kelly

was murdered and covered up. Now, he says that is history and looks

forward to working with Theresa May. Tim Lawton was issued with a

harassment warning. He has clearly lost the plot when it comes to

distinction between the victim and perpetrator. A village roundabout

received a special prize. The Kent roundabout was proclaimed roundabout

of the year. What did you make of the row about

Norman Baker's promotion? He says he will work constructively. I have to

say, I have a great deal of respect for him. We get on well. Were you

surprised by his appointment, for him. We get on well. Were you

his history with the David Kelly Brook? I'm sure he will go and do

his best. He will keep her on her toes, if nothing else. More she on

his. You said that you reckon you could support labour in Dover

against the Conservatives. Any alliances you would be happy to

form? In a word, no. Would you advocate a UKIP person standing

against Tracy? I regret to say that it is our intention to put a

candidate in every seat. Will you stand for Parliament? No, I am too

old. That's all we've got time for from

the South East this week. My commentators calling it the purge of

the Blairites, but one poor lamb who fell victim to this perch was Diane

Abbott, not somebody who worshipped at the altar of Tony Blair. Life on

the backbenches means she can pursue other interests such as attending

the Cheltenham literary Festival, and where she joins us now. Welcome.

Why did Ed Miliband fire you? He think the thing that did it for

Why did Ed Miliband fire you? He was me coming out on Syria. This was

Why did Ed Miliband fire you? He a purge of the Blairites, how did

you become collateral damage? I a purge of the Blairites, how did

no idea but the fact that I was a purge of the Blairites, how did

one member of the front bench to go public about my concerns on Syria

probably tipped my enemies in the party machinery over the edge. But

he went your way on Syria, in the end he agreed with your line on

Syria so why would that be for dismissal? I agree with you - you're

fired. Because I actually spoke dismissal? I agree with you - you're

and it was the fact that I spoke up, which was like a pebble falling

and it was the fact that I spoke up, forest or something. I am glad I

spoke up on Syria. He doesn't like people around them than who are

outspoken, who speak their minds? I think he's convinced he needs people

who read from the scripts. People increasingly upset that even though

who read from the scripts. People I was speaking party policy, I was

reading from the script. Since Mr Miliband bid you farewell, you've

said he's doing his best. Is his best good enough? I am sure it will

be. I've always said the Labour Party chose the right Miliband.

be. I've always said the Labour will remain loyal to him on the

backbenches. You're going to be loyal? However, I want to join in

the debate. You're going to be loyal? Absolutely. I was loyal both

in public and private when others were bitching about him behind the

from the backbenches, I hope to were bitching about him behind the

involved in the debate particularly around nick policy. Et's see how

loyal you are. You must be happy with all this new tough talk on

welfare and free schools? Well, with all this new tough talk on

think both Rachel and Tristram are very talented. We're going to have

to see how this all plays out. The issue of free schools, they are

to see how this all plays out. The thing. But diminishing the role

to see how this all plays out. The local authorities is another. There

need strong local authorities. I'm local authorities is another. There

sure Tristram will be aware of that. As for welfare, I'm sure Rachel

knows some of the cuts the Tories have made have been counter prod

ublingtive in -- productive in terms of spending. You wouldn't call that

your full-hearted endorsement, would you? What are you on, and lieu?

your full-hearted endorsement, would haven't seen the detail of Rachel's

new position. You have to wait and see the detail. It is in the papers.

You haven't stopped reading the papers. It was the Observer. When

will you announce you're running for Mayor of London? I have no plans to

announce that I'm running for Mayor Mayor of London? I have no plans to

of London. No plans. That's what Michael his I will Tyne used to

of London. No plans. That's what me. He had no plans to run against

Margaret Thatcher. Are these the same kind of plans you have? I know.

No, no. I have no plans. You know going for it. Everybody knows you're

going for it. Just fess up to your old mate! ! I have no plans to run.

If you did run, who would be, what would be your biggest threat other

than yourself? I think there's a lot of very talented candidates, David

They are all talented. I would have to weigh up the field. What do you

think your chances would be of getting the taxi drivers' vote?

Well, you know, Andrew, some of getting the taxi drivers' vote?

most loyal viewers of This Week getting the taxi drivers' vote?

were taxi drivers and their wives. I'm not frightened of reaching out

to middle England. You will find if you walk around London sub usual ya,

they all know me and they all love This Week. Love This Week. I thought

you were going to say they all love you. One person who loves you, is

Michael Portillo. He wasn't a happy chappie on Thursday night. You can't

see it but you can hear. This is what he said. I was disappointed for

her. She had decided to leave this something else in politics. She

wanted to do something serious. something else in politics. She

had taken what appeared to be a something else in politics. She

position but taken it extremely serious and was committed to the

issues. I'm quite disappointed for her. Why would Ed Miliband do such a

thing. You just mentioned about London mayor, did Diane not ask

thing. You just mentioned about Someone who's an eminent person

thing. You just mentioned about this programme, I don't know how he

could do that. I think Michael's missing you. Are you free this

Thursday night? Make him a happy man, come back to the fold. I think

I may be free this Thursday night. So, if he'll have me, I'll be there.

My people will speak to your people. We'll get it sorted out. Diane,

watch that big vase behind you, you're not insured for. That thanks

Does she have a chance of being Mayor of London? She's very well

known as Michael pointed out. That is important. People who are outside

known as Michael pointed out. That the party fold have traditionally

done well in the mayoral election. The job of being a London mayor

done well in the mayoral election. running an economy the size of a

nation. It is a very serious job. There may be problems with her

running? That was a transparent There may be problems with her

for it. She's potentially a very compelling Coll ticks. People have

left-winger but she's quite tough and conservative. Michael Gove said

he had fallen in love with Diane which That's one vote he has. What

do you think? I thing about Diane Abbott is she has a fantastic way of

connecting. She has a really good way of connecting wi people. She

would be a very strong candidate in candidate. It will probably be a

Labour win next time. Depends, if Labour wins the 2015 election it may

be more difficult. There's a danger for Labour that Diane is the big

personality liked by the party primary but isn't necessarily a

personality liked by the party in come the London general election?

That's true. London is traditionally a Labour city. But Boris managed to

win as an outsider. There are big dangers for Labour with that. I

think, as I said before, somebody who seems a bit independent from

their own party machinery tend to do We've only had mayors so far that

were independent? Indeed. And how well Ken Livingstone did last time.

Not that far behind bar Is Johnson. well Ken Livingstone did last time.

Not that far behind bar Is Johnson. He was and is much more left-wing

than Diane Abbott. Diane didn't He was and is much more left-wing

stray on Syria, it was immigration. Why was Jeremy brown replaced by

This is very much to do with Clegg deciding he has to go back to those

people who abandoned the Liberal Democrats the day they went into

coalition with the Conservatives really, and convince them there

coalition with the Conservatives some holy areas of policy, sacred

areas which they will defend. That includes civil liberties. In the

Home Office, that incident with includes civil liberties. In the

immigration vans went down very badly across the whole nation. Went

down particularly badly with Liberal Democrats and voters. In the Home

somebody there to put a shield on purpose behind it. And Nick Clegg

has won the argument against the left, Vince Cable on the economy,

away day in July, briefings say DrCable's been put in his box. He's

won the argument on economic policy against the left. When it comes

won the argument on economic policy the touchstone issue in the Home

Office, he wants to shore up that vote on the left. And please The

Guardian. This is important for something else going on which is

that Nick Clegg has to keep his parliamentary party happy. That

involves giving them ministerial jobs. A lot of Liberal Democrats

losing their jobs, Michael Moore, because vacancies have to be created

for number people to come in. By Liberal Democrat MPs will have been

on the payroll. It is effective party management. I want to move on

to press regulation. Brian Leveson's famous report, appeared before the

parliamentary select committee. famous report, appeared before the

will run you a clip from Connor politicians got involved in this. We

moved away from the press 300 years ago. The centr commitment is Lord

Leveson wanted a system the press self-regulation. This is state

involvement which I worry about profoundly. He sits on the media

interviews and investigations into the media. Chris Huhne said earlier

he thought all the newspapers would sign up to the Government-backed

Royal Charter. I think he's totally should. But he did say they would. I

think he's wrong. They won't sign up. All the mood music when that

Royal Charter was agreed on Friday was they would not sign up. It is

Maria Miller, is essentially saying to the press industry, if you don't

sign up, the Royal charter will to the press industry, if you don't

ahead. I cannot control the Labour to the press industry, if you don't

industry is wind the clock back to the press industry, if you don't

what they are calling the Puttnam stage. That was earlier this year,

Lord Puttnam was tack amendments which would introduce statutory

regulation. Maria Miller says you statutory legislation but if you

don't sign up to this, it will be a lot worse. Will that work? Playing

the good cop, bad cop routine? Will that pressurise everyone to sign up.

Lots of people are saying this will be a club with no members. It won't

work. As Nick and I broke the story last week that the Government was

going to reject the newspaper-backed one, I'm certain that the newspapers

now, most of them maybe, not all, but most, will go the legal route

and to judicial review on what the Government's proposing and will

and to judicial review on what the it to strains Bowring where freedom

of the press is enshrined. They it to strains Bowring where freedom

fight this? There is enough fury amongst Fleet Street to result in

that. The big political question going forward is which of the party

leaders does the press blame the most for the emergence of press

regulation? The Tories are very confident they'll blame Ed Miliband

the most. They'll target him before 2015. David Cameron gave us Brian

Leveson. You appoint a judge who shouldn't be surprised with what you

got in the Leveson report? I big chunk of press will look at David

Cameron saying, you were the guy who intended what will happen. If he had

have appointed Brian Leveson. If they face more punitive fines over

Labour ale cases they take that they face more punitive fines over

Europe. The Daily Mail and the tallest presumably will have to

suspend their campaign of Britain to leave the European Convention of

suspend that. We must never come out Churchill was behind it. He was

indeed. But it is actually a major constitutional issue whether you

regulate the press or not. There was constitutional issue whether you

a lot of ill feeling that this Marie ya miller statement was snubbing out

on Friday afternoon. Somebody said freedom of the press too important

to sneak out on afully afternoon. The whole subject should be treated

with respect. We've run out of time. I'll be back next Sunday with the

Communities Secretary Eric Pickles at our usual time of 11.00am. If