20/10/2013 Sunday Politics South East


20/10/2013

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Good morning and welcome to The Sunday Politics. Alex Salmond says a

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vote for Scottish independence would be an act of national self belief.

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His deputy joins us live from the SNP conference in Perth. Is

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Whitehall meddling too much in modern affairs? The Communities

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Secretary, Eric Pickles, joins me for The Sunday Interview. Senior

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coppers will be answering questions this week over the

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And in the South East: Working but still poor ` we visit the East

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Sussex town where the Labour council says the minimum wage of ?6.31 an

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hour just isn't enough. London, does the London assembly

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have one arm tied behind its back? All of that to come. And the Home

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Office minister sacked by Nick Clegg, who says his party is like a

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wonky shopping trolley, which keeps veering off to the left. He will

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join us live at noon. With me to unpack all of this, Nick Watt, Helen

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Lewis and Iain Martin. They will be tweeting throughout the programme,

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using hashtag #bbcsp. It is the last day of the Scottish national party

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conference in Perth. We have discovered that Alex Salmond has

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been on the same diet as Beyonce. The SNP leader compared his attempts

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to lose weight with the campaign for independence - lots achieved so far,

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20 more to do. In a moment, I will be joined by the deputy leader of

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the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. First they report on the independence

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campaign. September 18 2014, the date of destiny for Scotland, the

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day when these campaigners hope its people will decide to vote yes for

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independence. In a recent poll, only 14% said they knew enough to vote

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either way. That is unlikely to change any time soon. I think the

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Scottish people will be going to the polls next year still not knowing an

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awful lot of stuff which is important, because the outcome, in

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terms of taxation, debt, exactly what will happen to the allocation

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of assets between the two countries, will come about as a result of

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negotiation between a Scottish government and the UK Government.

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That is not stuff which will be known year. At the moment, polls

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suggest Scotland will decide to remain within the UK. A recent

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survey found that 44% of those questioned planned to vote no, 5%

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yes. But interestingly, the undecideds were at 31%, suggesting

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that Alex Salmond's task might be tough but not impossible. There are

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a number of reasons which make a vanilla campaign a good idea. It

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does not put off cautious voters, it allows for people to imagine their

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own version of what independence will be like, and crucially, it

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allows for the yes campaign to take advantage of any mistakes by the no

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campaign. In other words, the yes campaign are not out there with big

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ideas, they are just waiting for the no campaign to trip up. What we do

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know is that whatever happens next September, Scotland will be getting

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more power. From 2016, a separate income tax regime will come into

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force, giving the Scottish Parliament control over billions of

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pounds of revenue. What we do not know yet is how the alternative

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would pan out. There are issues which would be raised by

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independence, issues about how the national debt is allocated, what the

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currency will look like, how an independent Scotland would balance

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the books, because it would have a bigger job to do, even down the

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Whitehall government has to do. Those are really big issues, which a

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Scottish government would have to face, on top of whatever negotiation

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it had to have with the UK Government. The Scottish

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government's White Paper on independence, two to be published

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within weeks, should fill in some of the banks. But how Scotland votes in

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September may yet be determined by what it feels rather than what it

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knows. And joining me from Perth is Scotland's Deputy First Minister,

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Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon, we meet again! Hello, Andrew. Former

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leader of the SNP Gordon Wilson said, if this referendum fails, it

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will fail on the basis that people put their British identity ahead of

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their Scottish identity, so we have got to attack on the British

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identity - what does he mean? Gordon Wilson is a very respected, much

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loved former leader of the SNP. My view is that I do not think the

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independence referendum is really about identity. I am secure and

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proud of my Scottish identity, but this is a decision about where power

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best lies. Do decision-making powers best lie here in Scotland, with a

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government which is directly accountable to the people of

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Scotland, or does it best lie in Westminster, with governments which,

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very often, people in Scotland do not vote for? That is the issue at

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the heart of the campaign. Let me just clarify, you do not agree with

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him, that you need to go on the attack with regard to the British

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identity of Scottish people? No I do not think we are required to

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attack British identity. It is absolutely compatible for somebody

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to feel a sense of British identity but still support Scottish

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independence, because Scottish independence is about a transfer of

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power. It is about good government, accountable government, ensuring

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that decisions are taking here in Scotland, by people who have got the

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biggest stake in getting those decisions right. I represent a

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constituency in the south side of Glasgow, and if you speak to many

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people in my constituency, if you ask them their national identity,

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many of them would say Irish, Pakistani, Indian, Polish, and many

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of them will vote yes next year because they understand the issue at

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stake, which is the issue of where decisions are best taken. It looks

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like you are changing tack ex-, you have realised the softly softly

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approach, of saying that actually, nothing much will change, we will

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still have the Queen, the currency, and all the rest of it, is moving

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over towards voting for a left-wing future for Scotland... Well, I know

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that what we are doing is pointing out is pointing out the choice

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between two futures. If we vote yes, we take our own future into our own

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hands. We make sure that for ever after, we have governments which

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will be in demented policies which we have voted for. If we do not

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become independent, then we continue to run the risk of having

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governments not only that we do not vote for, but often, that Scotland

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rejects. We are seeing the dismantling of our system of social

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security. There are politicians in all of the UK parties who are

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itching to cut Scotland's share of spending. So Scotland faces a choice

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of two futures, and it is right to point out the positive consequences

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of voting yes, but also the consequences of voting no. But you

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are promising to reverse benefit cuts and increase the minimum wage.

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You would renationalise the Royal Mail, though how you would do that

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nobody knows. You are promising to cut energy bills. These are the kind

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of promises that parties make in a general election campaign, not in a

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once in 300 years extra stench or choice. Is the future of Scotland

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really going to be decided on the size of the minimum wage? --

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existential choice. A yes vote would be about bringing decision-making

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powers home, but we are also setting out some of the things an SNP

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government would do, if elected A decision on what the first

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government of an independent Scotland would be would not be taken

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in the referendum, that decision would be taken in the 2016 election.

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And all of the parties will put forward their offers to the

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electorate. We are setting out some of the things which we think it is

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important to be prioritised. These are things which have a lot of

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support in Scotland. We see the pain being felt by people because of the

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rising cost of energy bills, there is widespread opposition to some of

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the welfare cuts. So, we are setting out the options which are open to

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Scotland, but only open to Scotland if we have the powers of

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independence. Given that you seem to be promising aid permanent socialist

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near Varna, if Scotland is independent, if you are right of

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centre in Scotland, and I understand that is a minority pursuit where you

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are, but it would be a big mistake to vote for independence, in that

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case, wouldn't it? No, because the whole point of independence is that

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people get the country they want, and the government a vote for. So,

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right of centre people should not vote for independence? No, because

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people who are of that political persuasion in Scotland get the

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opportunity to vote for parties which represent that persuasion and

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if they can persuade a majority to vote likewise, then they will get a

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government which reflects that. That is the essence of independence.

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Right now, we have a Westminster government which most people in

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Scotland rejected at the last general election. That is hardly

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democratic. It is right and proper that the SNP, as the current

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government, points out the opportunities that would be opening

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up. Can I just clarify one thing, when we spoke on The Daily Politics

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earlier last week, you made it clear to me that Alex Salmond, we know he

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wants to debate with David Cameron, but you made it clear to me that he

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would debate with Alistair Darling as well, and Mr Carmichael... He

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made it clear yesterday. Well, he said to the BBC this morning that he

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would only debate with these people after he had had a debate with Mr

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Cameron, so who is right? I was making the point last week, and Alex

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Salmond was making it yesterday and this morning - let's have that

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agreement by David Cameron to come and debate with Alex Salmond, and

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then Alex Salmond, just like me will debate with allcomers. So if he

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does not get the David Cameron debate, then he will not do the

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others, is that right? Let's focus on is wading David Cameron to do the

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right thing. So, in other words he will not debate, yes or no? Members

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of the SNP government... We know that, but what about Alex Salmond?

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He said yesterday, we will debate with all sorts of people, including

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the people you have spoken about, but David Cameron should not be let

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off the hook just putting aside the independence issue, energy prices

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are now even playing into the SNP, so every political party has to do

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something about energy prices. Yes, it is clearly it is interesting is

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the difference between the SNP and the Labour approach. Ed Miliband

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electrified the party conference season when he said he would freeze

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energy prices for 20 months, seemingly having an amazing control

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over the energy market, where we know that essentially what pushes

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prices up the wholesale prices on world market. What Nicola Sturgeon

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is talking about is actually saying, this amount is added to your bills

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for green levies, and we are going to take them off your bills and they

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will be paid out of general taxation in an independent Scotland. That is

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a credible government, making a credible case, very different to

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what Labour is saying, although playing to the same agenda. So,

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Labour has got a populist policy, the SNP has also got a populist

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policy, the one group of people that do not have a decent response to

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this is the coalition? Exactly. What the SNP also have is a magic money

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pot, so that speech yesterday, you are right, it was very left wing,

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social democratic, but there was none of the icing like Labour has

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been talking about, with fiscal responsibility. I think that is the

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difference between the two. We know what the Tories would really like to

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do, all of these green levies which were put on our bills in the good

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times, when they were going to be the greenest party ever, the Tories

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would like to say, let's just wipe out some of them, put the rest on to

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some general government spending, but they have a problem, which is in

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the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Not only that, they really

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are stuck now. But there is something in the free schools debate

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this morning, the parties are now determined to send a message to

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their potential voters at the next election, that they are trying to

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fight their coalition partners. Do not expected any change in coalition

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policy or free schools policy before the election, but we can expect to

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hear the parties try to pretend that they are taking on their coalition

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partners. Mr Clegg has said, we would put this free schools policy

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into our manifesto, so is it not possible that the Tories will say,

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if you give us an overall majority, we will cut your electricity bill

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because we will get rid of these green levies? I think that is

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entirely possible. The Tories know that they are stuck on this, they do

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not have a response to Ed Miliband. How much should ministers in

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Whitehall medal in local decisions across England? In opposition, David

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Cameron said he wanted a fundamental shift of power from Whitehall to

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local people. He said, when one size fits all solution is...

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Eric Pickles described it as "an historic shift of power". But the

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Communitites and Local Government Secretary can't stop meddling. In

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the past few months Mr Pickles has tried to ban councils from using

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CCTV cameras and "spy cars" to fine motorists... Told councils how to

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act quicker to shut down illegal travellers' sites... Criticised

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councils who want to raise council tax... Insisted councils release

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land to residents hoping to build their own property... And stated new

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homes should have a special built in bin storage section. It seems not a

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week goes by without a policy announcement from the hyper active

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Mr Pickles. So is the government still committed to localism, or is

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it all about centralism now? And Communities Secretary Eric

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Pickles joins me now for the Sunday Interview.

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Welcome. Nice to be here. You said in July you were going to give town

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halls the power to wreak their local magic. So why issue diktats from

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Westminster? It is not about giving power to local councils, it is going

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beyond that to local people. If local councils refuse to open up

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their books, we have to go straight to local people. You have attacked

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councillors using so-called spy cameras to enforce parking rules.

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Why is that your business? Because there is an injustice taking place.

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You cannot use fines to raise money and that is plainly happening. If

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you get yourself a ticket from a CCTV, it could be days or weeks

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before that lands on your doorstep and you have virtually no

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possibility to be able to defend yourself. But just leave it to

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people to vote out the council then. We are trying to enforce the law and

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it clearly states that you cannot use parking fines in order to fund

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general rate. So why are you not taking them to court if they are

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breaking the law? There have been a number of court cases taken by local

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residents. I am there to stand by local residents. Your even trying to

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micromanage, allowing motorist s to park for 15 minutes in local high

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street. Why is that your business? I'm trying to ensure that local

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authorities understand the importance of the town centre. If

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you look at all opinion polls, right now there is a five-minute leeway

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but there are many cases of people being jumped on by parking officials

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for quite trivial things. It is about saying, surely I can go and

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get a pint of milk. But a party that dines out on localism, that is a

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matter for local people, not the men in Whitehall. I have to be on the

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side of local people. That person who wants to go and get a pint of

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milk. Ultimately it is a matter for them. It is a matter for the

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council. But a little bit of criticism is not a bad thing. You

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have now declared war on the wheelie bin and suggested that new homes

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should have built in storage sections. You just cannot help

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meddling! I suppose that is possible. You are a meddler! I am in

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charge of building regulations and planning. So I may have some

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responsibility there. Another one, interfering in local planning

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decisions. A couple of places, you ruled in favour of developers. They

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want to build over 200 houses against the wishes of the parish and

:20:33.:20:40.

district councils. The local MP said the Secretary of State's decision

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runs roughshod over any concept of localism. Now I have to be a

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blushing violet because of course this is still potentially subject to

:20:52.:20:59.

judicial review. I have to act properly. And Apple went is entitled

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to justice. -- an applicant. A local authority has a duty to ensure that

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is adequate housing for people in their area. This was not a decision

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that I took as a personal decision, it was on the advice of an

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inspector. But you contradict what David Cameron himself said in 2 12,

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he spoke about a vision where we give communities much more say and

:21:37.:21:44.

local control. People in villages fear big housing estates being

:21:45.:21:47.

plonked from above. You have just done exactly that. After a proper

:21:48.:22:00.

quasi judicial enquiry. What we have is planning framework which local

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people can decide where it goes But they cannot say, nothing here. They

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have to have a five-year housing supply. Previous to this government

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decided exactly where houses would go, now local people can take the

:22:17.:22:25.

lead. Anna Silbury said because of the way your department rules, local

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authorities now have no alternative but to agree development on green

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belt land. I do not accept that I think around Nottingham there are

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particular problems with regards to the green belt. The matter has been

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referred back. the green belt. The matter has been

:22:50.:23:00.

want to see development on the green belt but on Brownfield site. We want

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to see underused land. But you have to remember why we have the green

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belt. Not to remember why we have the green

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nice, it is their to prevent conurbations bumping into one

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another. Your conurbations bumping into one

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is vocal about the need to deal what he calls the historic under

:23:20.:23:24.

provision of housing. Shelter says we need 250,000 new homes per year.

:23:25.:23:37.

provision of housing. Shelter says Houston statistics are getting

:23:38.:23:37.

there, but nowhere near that. - housing. You cannot

:23:38.:23:40.

there, but nowhere near that. - localism agenda as well as meeting

:23:41.:23:42.

housing demand. I do not accept that. We inherited a position where

:23:43.:23:55.

the lowest level of building since the 1920s was in place. But it has

:23:56.:24:01.

steadily improved. It does take a while. You cannot have a localism

:24:02.:24:07.

agenda where people call the shots on housing as well as meeting the

:24:08.:24:11.

housing demand. People have a duty to ensure that future generations

:24:12.:24:18.

have somewhere to live. You cannot pull up the drawbridge. There is

:24:19.:24:22.

nothing incompatible between that and localism. Because someone has to

:24:23.:24:28.

be the voice of those people who are going to live there and to make sure

:24:29.:24:35.

there is the proper amount. Plans now exist for more than 150,000

:24:36.:24:41.

homes to be built on protected land, including the green belt. That will

:24:42.:24:47.

mean riding over local concerns Each application will be taken on

:24:48.:24:52.

its own merits. To suggest that there is an assault on the green

:24:53.:24:56.

belt is as far from the truth as you can imagine. Should Andrew Mitchell

:24:57.:25:01.

get his job back if the years exonerated? I would be honoured to

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sit with Andrew Mitchell in the Cabinet. I have always believed his

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version. But it is a matter for the Prime Minister who he has in

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government. He would have no problem in seeing him back in Cabinet?

:25:17.:25:24.

Absolutely not. Your mother answered Vulcan junior minister Nick balls

:25:25.:25:28.

said about the Royal Charter for the press, there's nothing we have done

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that troubles me as much as this. Is that your view? It is not. I accept

:25:36.:25:38.

the compromise agreement put together. If the press want to have

:25:39.:25:46.

an additional protection that the Royal Charter offers, then they can

:25:47.:25:51.

move into the system. But if they want to continue independently that

:25:52.:25:57.

is acceptable to me. But you previously echoed Thomas Jefferson,

:25:58.:26:04.

you said for a free society to operate the river of a free press

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has to flow without restriction That is what I said at the time We

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had to find a compromise. And that seems to me to be a better

:26:18.:26:23.

compromise. Let me just show you this little montage of pictures that

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we have. I could not be happier Then you are in the Desert and there

:26:36.:26:44.

you are in San Francisco. Then you are in the casino. That is my

:26:45.:26:58.

personal favourite. These students took a cardboard cutout of you and

:26:59.:27:03.

took it round the world with them. Did you ever think you would become

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a student icon? I always felt secretly that that might happen one

:27:11.:27:15.

day. But it came earlier in my career than I thought! Why would

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they do that? I think they thought I could do with a bit of an airing! I

:27:24.:27:30.

went to Norfolk earlier, but that looks better. Thank you.

:27:31.:27:39.

On Wednesday senior police folk including chief constables, will be

:27:40.:27:41.

questioned by MPs about what's become known as Plebgate. That's the

:27:42.:27:46.

incident in Downing Street last year which led to the resignation of the

:27:47.:27:49.

government chief whip Andrew Mitchell. Last week the Independent

:27:50.:27:51.

Police Complaints Commission questioned the "honesty and

:27:52.:27:53.

integrity" of police officers who met Mr Mitchell following the row.

:27:54.:27:58.

So do scandals like this affect public trust in the police? Here's

:27:59.:28:05.

Adam Fleming. It's a story of politics, the

:28:06.:28:11.

police, and CCTV. No, not Andrew Mitchell, but an MP's researcher

:28:12.:28:14.

called Alex Bryce and his partner Iain Feis.

:28:15.:28:21.

It started on a summer night in 2011. They'd been in Parliament

:28:22.:28:25.

After a few words with a police officer, Ian was wrestled to the

:28:26.:28:29.

ground. Alex came to have a look and the same thing happened to him. Both

:28:30.:28:34.

were arrested and charged. These pictures emerged on day one of their

:28:35.:28:39.

trial. A trial that was halted because the police version of events

:28:40.:28:46.

just didn't match the footage. A lot of people with incidence like this

:28:47.:28:53.

which we experienced, people think there is no smoke without fire. So

:28:54.:28:57.

when we said we did nothing wrong, people would think police just would

:28:58.:29:04.

not do that. There is always that underlying view that some people

:29:05.:29:07.

have. I think that has been challenged and people who know us

:29:08.:29:13.

believe that. This year the Met apologised and paid compensation.

:29:14.:29:16.

And it's led to an unlikely sort of friendship. When the truth came out

:29:17.:29:22.

about the Andrew Mitchell story I actually sent him an e-mail to

:29:23.:29:26.

congratulate him about the truth coming out. He did send a reply

:29:27.:29:32.

acknowledging that. So where are we with THAT saga? Remember last

:29:33.:29:36.

September? Andrew Mitchell had a row with police at the gates of Downing

:29:37.:29:40.

Street about his bike. He lost his job as chief whip after accusations

:29:41.:29:43.

he called the officers plebs. That, he's always denied. This week the

:29:44.:29:49.

police watchdog the IPCC suggested that three officers may have lied

:29:50.:29:52.

about a meeting with him at the height of the scandal. Add that to

:29:53.:29:58.

the charge sheet of cases that haven't exactly flattered the

:29:59.:30:02.

police. Like the revelation of a cover up over Hillsborough. The

:30:03.:30:07.

prosecution of an officer from the Met over the death of Ian Tomlinson

:30:08.:30:12.

during protests in 2009. Along with news that undercover officers were

:30:13.:30:15.

told to smear the family of Stephen Lawrence. During Thursday's protest

:30:16.:30:21.

by teachers in Westminster the police operation was really, really

:30:22.:30:26.

relaxed. And recent scandals have done nothing to affect society's

:30:27.:30:30.

view of the boys and girls in blue - or should I say hi-vis. About 6 % of

:30:31.:30:33.

the public say they trust the police. And that's not budged since

:30:34.:30:40.

pollsters started measuring it 0 years ago.

:30:41.:30:50.

Of course, in Britain, crime is down, so the perception might be

:30:51.:30:55.

that the police is doing a good job. And the rank-and-file recently

:30:56.:31:00.

seamed pretty chipper at this awards ceremony. Is it a good time to be a

:31:01.:31:05.

police officer? It is a good time. Despite all of the headlines? Still

:31:06.:31:11.

a good time. But speak to officers privately, and they say Plebgate is

:31:12.:31:16.

affecting how the public see them. Some of them also think

:31:17.:31:19.

politicians, the Tories especially, are enjoying that a little too much.

:31:20.:31:25.

Adam Fleming reporting there. Going head-to-head on this issue of trust

:31:26.:31:32.

in the police, a Sunday Mirror columnist and Peter Kirkham, former

:31:33.:31:38.

chief inspector. Peter Kirkham, let me come to you first. Plebgate, the

:31:39.:31:43.

cover-ups over John Charles De menace, the death of Ian Tomlinson,

:31:44.:31:50.

the industrial deception over Hillsborough, why is the culture of

:31:51.:31:55.

deceit so prevalent in the police? I do not agree there is a cultural

:31:56.:31:59.

deceit. These are all individual incidents which raise individual

:32:00.:32:04.

issues. I would suggest that your short headline summarising each of

:32:05.:32:07.

them has taken the most negative view of it. How can you be positive

:32:08.:32:16.

about the police's behaviour over Hillsborough? It remains to be seen

:32:17.:32:20.

with the inquiry but we are probably talking about a handful of senior

:32:21.:32:22.

officers, dealing with the paperwork. Well over 100 testimonies

:32:23.:32:33.

being doctored by the police. Well, those testimonies were true to start

:32:34.:32:37.

with, so the officers have told the truth, and they have been changed

:32:38.:32:42.

for some reason. By the police. By the police all lawyers we have got

:32:43.:32:47.

this thing that the police conflates everything. There are 43 forces

:32:48.:32:53.

there is ACPO, there is the College Of Policing... People say it was a

:32:54.:33:01.

handful of police officers, it wasn't, it was six senior police

:33:02.:33:05.

officers who were alleged to have doctored 106 D4 statements. Even

:33:06.:33:09.

today we are hearing that more than 1000 officers are yet to be spoken

:33:10.:33:17.

to about Hillsborough. -- 164. Do we pretend that Hillsborough, and some

:33:18.:33:21.

of these examples, are the exception rather than the rule? What is the

:33:22.:33:27.

evidence that this is now prevalent in our police? I think there is a

:33:28.:33:33.

lot of evidence, and Plebgate is probably the thing which has

:33:34.:33:36.

clinched it. The public want to know, how deep does this girl? The

:33:37.:33:40.

audacity of a group of policemen who think they can set up a Cabinet

:33:41.:33:45.

minister. Five of those who were arrested and bailed still have not

:33:46.:33:49.

been charged. One of those officers actually wrote an e-mail pretending

:33:50.:33:53.

to be a member of the public. I do not see what the problem is in

:33:54.:33:58.

prosecuting them for that. Taking Plebgate, there are loads of

:33:59.:34:02.

different bits of that incident There is the officers on duty in

:34:03.:34:05.

Downing Street, the issue of who leaked the story to the Sun, there

:34:06.:34:10.

are the officers who claim to have been there who would appear not to

:34:11.:34:14.

have been there, and then we have got the West Midlands meeting

:34:15.:34:16.

issue, which has sort of been resolved this week. There has been

:34:17.:34:25.

misconduct. But at a lower level. But it is the audacity of an

:34:26.:34:28.

organisation which thinks it can take on an elected minister and

:34:29.:34:34.

destroy him for their own political purposes, at a time when the

:34:35.:34:37.

Government are cutting please pay, when they are freezing their

:34:38.:34:41.

pensions and reducing their numbers. It looks very much to all of us the

:34:42.:34:45.

public, that the police are at war with the government, and they are

:34:46.:34:48.

going to do anything they can to discredit the Government. The police

:34:49.:34:52.

would have every reason to be at war with the Government, because there

:34:53.:35:02.

if there is a crisis of trust.. But it looks like they fitted up a

:35:03.:35:07.

Cabinet minister. That remains to be seen, it is being investigated. We

:35:08.:35:13.

know that those Birmingham officers, they totally misrepresented to, if

:35:14.:35:17.

not lied outright, about what was said. Again, that is a

:35:18.:35:21.

misrepresentation of what happened. If you actually go and look at what

:35:22.:35:25.

is said, it is plain from the context, they were saying, he has

:35:26.:35:32.

told us nothing new. But he had in the transcript, it said he hadn t.

:35:33.:35:38.

He would not admit he had used the word pleb. He apologised profusely,

:35:39.:35:44.

he said it would never happen again, he said many things that he had not

:35:45.:35:48.

said before. I agree, which is presumably... Thereon many police

:35:49.:35:54.

forces in this country, they have one of the toughest jobs in the

:35:55.:35:58.

land, they end up getting involved in almost anything which happens in

:35:59.:36:04.

society, and there are obviously a number of difficult examples, but

:36:05.:36:09.

what is the evidence that it is out of hand, other than just several bad

:36:10.:36:17.

apples? This bad apples argument, we have some amazing police people

:36:18.:36:20.

thank God, but it is because of those that we have to root out the

:36:21.:36:23.

bad ones, the ones that are possibly corrupt. From where most of us are

:36:24.:36:29.

standing, the ones who are being accused of being corrupt, there does

:36:30.:36:31.

not seem to be any process to deal with these people. The trouble with

:36:32.:36:36.

a rotten apple is that it spreads. It is not fair on the good cops to

:36:37.:36:40.

be tainted by this, and I think the police force, as an institution ..

:36:41.:36:44.

For all of us, we have to respect the police. There is a problem, is

:36:45.:36:52.

there not? People do worry that if you can fit up a Cabinet minister,

:36:53.:36:58.

you can fit up anybody... . I would disagree that anybody has proved

:36:59.:37:01.

that anybody has been fitted up We are yet to hear what happened at the

:37:02.:37:06.

gates of Downing Street. But what we do know about the gates of Downing

:37:07.:37:10.

Street is that we were told by the police officers that passers-by had

:37:11.:37:17.

heard this incredible row, where Mitchell's file went

:37:18.:37:19.

heard this incredible row, where That is not true... . They did not

:37:20.:37:31.

use those words, actually. All right, but it is clear that the

:37:32.:37:37.

Police Federation jumped on this as a politically motivated campaign...

:37:38.:37:45.

I have always said that politics should be kept out of policing. The

:37:46.:37:49.

federation, they cannot go on strike, but this was to covertly

:37:50.:37:53.

political, so I criticise them for that. Do we need a better way of

:37:54.:38:00.

monitoring the police? We need a more competent and properly

:38:01.:38:03.

resourced Independent police commission. But if you look at those

:38:04.:38:09.

Bravery Awards, every police officer, every year, who acts with

:38:10.:38:16.

bravery... That is the police force we want to believe in. That is the

:38:17.:38:23.

police force you have got. We will leave it there. Coming up in just

:38:24.:38:27.

over 20 minutes, I will be speaking to former Lib Minister Jeremy

:38:28.:38:28.

Browne. And in The Week Ahead, Hello, I'm Julia George and this is

:38:29.:38:45.

the Sunday Politics in the South East. Coming up later:

:38:46.:38:48.

Re`nationalise the railways? Cap the fares? With families in the

:38:49.:38:52.

South East facing their own cost of living crisis, what is the answer to

:38:53.:38:56.

inflation busting rail fare rises? Joining me in the studio today to

:38:57.:39:00.

discuss this and other topics is the Conservative MP for Rochester and

:39:01.:39:03.

Strood, Mark Reckless. And the Labour Party's prospective

:39:04.:39:05.

Parliamentary candidate for Thanet South, Will Scobie. Great to have

:39:06.:39:19.

you both with us. We'll be having two big debates about how much we

:39:20.:39:23.

earn and how much things cost. But let's start with education ` our

:39:24.:39:26.

children's best chance of a better life. Kent's grammar schools are not

:39:27.:39:30.

offering enough places to bright children from disadvantaged

:39:31.:39:32.

backgrounds, according to David Laws, the Liberal Democrat schools

:39:33.:39:34.

minister. He says in terms of achievement, children on free school

:39:35.:39:37.

meals still lag too far behind children from better off families.

:39:38.:39:41.

So, what can be done to extend educational opportunity to all?

:39:42.:39:48.

I assume most people think that bright, poor children should go to

:39:49.:39:51.

grammar school in greater numbers than they usually do. How do we

:39:52.:39:58.

achieve that? What we've been doing is we've introduced the pupil

:39:59.:40:01.

premium so that children who are on free school meals, extra money goes

:40:02.:40:06.

to those schools depending on how many of those kids there. That money

:40:07.:40:09.

has to be focused on their education. Should they, for

:40:10.:40:14.

instance, be getting tutoring? Because that has made it possible

:40:15.:40:18.

for wealthier families, some would say, to buy a place in grammar

:40:19.:40:25.

school. The Sub Trust are asking whether they should get the same

:40:26.:40:28.

advantage whether they have got the ability to pay. `` Sutton Trust. I

:40:29.:40:41.

wonder if we did have primary schools familiarising people with a

:40:42.:40:45.

test, doing things in terms of helping children with that so it

:40:46.:40:46.

doesn't come as helping children with that so it

:40:47.:40:47.

doesn'sn'%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%sn'%%%%%%% helping children with that so it

:40:48.:40:48.

doesn't come as a shock to them, I ship that will `` I think that will

:40:49.:40:55.

reduce some of the advantage. But the pupil premium is focused on

:40:56.:40:58.

basic skills and that should feed through, as well. It will take time

:40:59.:41:04.

to come through. Apart from tutoring and the cost of it, there are other

:41:05.:41:08.

disincentives to a child from a deprived background wanting to go to

:41:09.:41:14.

grammar school, aren't there? In the sense that you wouldn't fit in,

:41:15.:41:21.

there is uniform, which is up to ?49 for a school dress. A sense that

:41:22.:41:26.

everyone is posher than you. How do we overcome that? It comes back to

:41:27.:41:31.

the attainment gap. That is the issue we need to focus on. I want

:41:32.:41:36.

you to focus on why we haven't got children going to grammar school.

:41:37.:41:41.

International research has shown that intervention in preschool years

:41:42.:41:46.

will have a bigger impact. I think we need to focus the debate on Sure

:41:47.:41:53.

Start. You can focus the debate on that, I'm not going to. Are there

:41:54.:41:58.

disincentives for poor children and should we do some thing about it?

:41:59.:42:02.

Yes, but we want to focus on preschool years in Kent. Kent county

:42:03.:42:09.

council is closing a quarter of Sure, grow start... We've spoken

:42:10.:42:15.

about that before and we are not going to be hijacked into doing it

:42:16.:42:20.

again now. I think certain types of families going is wrong. We should

:42:21.:42:21.

encourage everyone families going is wrong. We should

:42:22.:42:22.

encou I encou%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% families going is wrong. We should

:42:23.:42:23.

encourage everyone to take the test and have support to do that for

:42:24.:42:27.

people across the social spectrum to get them into our grammar schools so

:42:28.:42:32.

that kids with the highest potential get that education. We will see if

:42:33.:42:36.

it happens because the Kent test results have just come out. We all

:42:37.:42:45.

know living in the South East can be a real drain on our finances, and

:42:46.:42:49.

just because you've got a job it doesn't necessarily follow that you

:42:50.:42:52.

have enough money to afford all the basics. Now a Labour council in East

:42:53.:42:56.

Sussex thinks it's come up with a way of changing that. Their idea `

:42:57.:43:00.

the minimum wage of ?6.31 an hour is not enough. They want to pay not

:43:01.:43:03.

just staff but contractors more than that to guarantee what's called the

:43:04.:43:07.

living wage. And they want the whole town to be in on it. In a minute

:43:08.:43:11.

we'll here from one businessman who thinks the living wage would be

:43:12.:43:16.

dangerous. They say money makes the world go

:43:17.:43:20.

around but one in six workers in the South East don't even earn enough to

:43:21.:43:26.

give them a decent standard of living. Cleaners, bar staff and shop

:43:27.:43:31.

workers are the most likely to earn below the living wage, which is ?7

:43:32.:43:40.

45 and our outside London. `` ?7.45 per hour. But this borough council

:43:41.:43:46.

is trying to turn that around. It already pays its employees the

:43:47.:43:51.

living wage, which is corrugated on the basic cost of living. It now

:43:52.:43:55.

wants people employed through contract is to be paid the same. The

:43:56.:44:00.

council hopes other employers will follow the example so Hastings will

:44:01.:44:05.

become a living wage town. I don't want Hastings Borough Council to be

:44:06.:44:08.

in the lead when we race to the bottom to see who can provide the

:44:09.:44:12.

cheapest services and who will take the lowest wage. It's a matter of

:44:13.:44:16.

decency and fairness. The minimum wage is a minimum but it is the very

:44:17.:44:22.

minimum in terms of rising living standards, fuel costs, food costs.

:44:23.:44:26.

That is the basic minimum and a living wage is really what people

:44:27.:44:34.

required to live on. Hayley received a slight pay rise when she started

:44:35.:44:38.

earning a living wage at this mercenary in Brighton, which is run

:44:39.:44:45.

by the Sussex Community NHS trust. We noticed it straightaway and it

:44:46.:44:48.

was quite substantial leap and what it equates to is that I can take my

:44:49.:44:53.

children for a day out once a month. It has enriched our lives not

:44:54.:45:00.

a huge amount, but so that we can just enjoy our lifestyles of it

:45:01.:45:03.

better. I think it's a really good thing that the trust is doing it and

:45:04.:45:08.

hopefully, other, larger corporations will follow suit

:45:09.:45:13.

because it does enrich lives. Hayley is one of 300 employees paid the

:45:14.:45:17.

living wage, which costs the trust an extra ?21,000 a year. It will

:45:18.:45:21.

help recruit staff to the organisation, people will see we are

:45:22.:45:26.

the right kind of organisation. We'll have a reduction in our

:45:27.:45:30.

temporary staffing costs, which are usually expensive because we have to

:45:31.:45:35.

pay a premium. There are direct benefits to productivity and

:45:36.:45:37.

efficiency that come from having a more motivated, or enthusiastic

:45:38.:45:43.

workforce. Childcare is another sector where workers are unlikely to

:45:44.:45:50.

earn a living wage. But the widespread introduction of the

:45:51.:45:54.

living wage could save the government ?2 billion a year,

:45:55.:46:03.

according to a think tank. They say the government would collect more

:46:04.:46:06.

income tax and pay less in benefits and tax credits. Campaigners also

:46:07.:46:11.

insist local authorities can influence other employers. What

:46:12.:46:17.

Hastings are doing is a really great example of how civic leadership can

:46:18.:46:22.

drive change. So the council has adopted the living wage but is doing

:46:23.:46:28.

more than that. It is saying to local employers to think about the

:46:29.:46:32.

sort of economy we want. It is difficult for small employers but we

:46:33.:46:36.

know from research by the Federation of small businesses that the

:46:37.:46:40.

majority of small businesses already pay the living wage and it is

:46:41.:46:45.

actually larger companies who are sometimes lagging behind and

:46:46.:46:47.

sticking to the national minimum wage. Here in the South East the

:46:48.:46:52.

cost of living is greater than anywhere outside London but the

:46:53.:46:56.

number of people earning less than the living wage here is rising. As

:46:57.:47:01.

well as in Hastings, other local authorities have also taken the lead

:47:02.:47:08.

in paying the living wage, including Gravesham and Crawley Borough

:47:09.:47:11.

councils and Surrey county council. So isn't it time for other employers

:47:12.:47:15.

to follow suit? I'm joined now from Hastings by

:47:16.:47:18.

Jonathan Dolding from the Hastings area Chamber of Commerce. We've got

:47:19.:47:23.

a town here with high levels of deprivation. Isn't the living wage

:47:24.:47:29.

exactly what Hastings needs? We certainly agree with the sentiments

:47:30.:47:33.

that we want a town that is a vibrant economy, growing and strong.

:47:34.:47:39.

We want to see people paid well and that are well educated. But there

:47:40.:47:45.

are some inherent problems with the living wage. What are they? We are

:47:46.:47:51.

still in a relatively fragile economy. We're seeing some growth

:47:52.:47:56.

but most business people locally are cautiously optimistic about the

:47:57.:48:00.

future. We need to see sustained growth before wage levels can rise.

:48:01.:48:05.

We had a really positive business case that we heard from companies

:48:06.:48:12.

who signed up. Productivity increases, absenteeism goes down,

:48:13.:48:16.

staff retention is improved, but it's good for individuals and

:48:17.:48:22.

society. What's not to like? I was chatting two days ago to a local

:48:23.:48:25.

employer that employs close to 100 people. They're under significant

:48:26.:48:31.

pressure from competition in India and as much as they would love to

:48:32.:48:37.

pay all their employees the living wage, they soon began to Ford. They

:48:38.:48:43.

would be out of business. `` they simply can't afford it. Aren't these

:48:44.:48:49.

the arguments we heard about the introduction of the minimum wage in

:48:50.:48:54.

1999? People said the same thing then but nobody would revoke that

:48:55.:48:57.

now. The horror stories didn't come to pass. Know but we need to see,

:48:58.:49:03.

particularly in a town like Hastings, sustained investment.

:49:04.:49:09.

Particularly in infrastructure and skills, so businesses can grow and

:49:10.:49:15.

create wealth and more jobs and then pay people better wages. Thank you

:49:16.:49:19.

for joining us from Hastings. You heard the businessman ` he says it's

:49:20.:49:24.

the wrong time to throw extra overheads at fragile small

:49:25.:49:28.

businesses. 100 jobs could be lost at just one company he's spoken to.

:49:29.:49:34.

It's just not the right time or place, is it? Hastings Council need

:49:35.:49:39.

to be given praise for what they've done. It has helped the lowest paid

:49:40.:49:44.

workers at the council and we've changed tendering contracts, too. I

:49:45.:49:53.

am knowledge there are risks but it is something the council should be

:49:54.:49:56.

campaigning for and asking businesses. It's a two`way

:49:57.:49:59.

conversation. I think there should be praise for what they've done.

:50:00.:50:05.

It's disappointing that other councils haven't taken this on.

:50:06.:50:10.

There was a consultation at Medway that was voted down by some of

:50:11.:50:15.

Mark's colleagues. Are you disappointed, Mark? I think it was

:50:16.:50:20.

the right decision. It is the public sector unions who are driving this

:50:21.:50:24.

and I think the job of the council is to serve its council tax payers

:50:25.:50:27.

by delivering services as cost effectively as possible. It's not to

:50:28.:50:36.

give higher wages. It saves money on benefits. It increases tax revenues.

:50:37.:50:42.

The IPPR says the living wage would benefit the government to the tune

:50:43.:50:46.

of ?2 billion a year. You're an economist ` it's a no`brainer. The

:50:47.:50:53.

Labour Party, dependent on the unions, are promoting this so that

:50:54.:50:56.

council money is not spent on giving the most cost`effective services to

:50:57.:51:01.

the council taxpayer but instead spent on higher wages for the staff

:51:02.:51:09.

and in this case... ?7.45 an hour! They are saying they want to drive

:51:10.:51:13.

up the cost of everything the council buys. It might focus with

:51:14.:51:20.

mind on doing the job better. Let me ask about the government because you

:51:21.:51:23.

are insinuating this is bad value for taxpayers. So you want the

:51:24.:51:29.

government instead ` essentially taxpayers ` to continue to subsidise

:51:30.:51:34.

low`paying employers? I want the taxpayer to get goods and services

:51:35.:51:37.

in most cost`effective way, rather than driving up costs I paying staff

:51:38.:51:41.

more than they need to dig it able to do the job. You want the lowest

:51:42.:51:48.

possible wage? I want the lowest possible council tax for the

:51:49.:51:52.

taxpayer. A lot of these people are paying council tax. In Medway, where

:51:53.:51:58.

it is ?100 cheaper, the last thing we want to do is drive up the costs

:51:59.:52:02.

thanks to this trade union based activity. If Ed Miliband wins the

:52:03.:52:06.

next election, what is going to happen with the living wage? How far

:52:07.:52:12.

as the party prepared to push it? He has orally said he wants to

:52:13.:52:17.

strengthen the minimum wage. Living wage or minimum wage? Minimum wage.

:52:18.:52:22.

This is the elephant in the room, the minimum wage is too low. Yes and

:52:23.:52:30.

it is falling. I think there is some case for increasing the minimum wage

:52:31.:52:33.

but I don't want to see a system where if you're in the public

:52:34.:52:36.

sector, you get paid more. From what we earn to what we spend.

:52:37.:52:41.

?4800 ` that's how much it costs for an annual season ticket from

:52:42.:52:44.

Canterbury to London. Want to travel between Brighton and the capital?

:52:45.:52:50.

You'll have to find ?4200. And those prices will go up again in January.

:52:51.:52:54.

No surprise, then, that the cost of your train ticket is a big issue for

:52:55.:52:57.

thousands of commuters. Stephen Joseph from the Campaign for Better

:52:58.:53:05.

Transport joins me from Westminster. It's great news, then, Stephen. The

:53:06.:53:09.

government is curbing the amount that our rail fares can go up in the

:53:10.:53:13.

next year. You must be thrilled. Unfortunately, that's not what is

:53:14.:53:18.

really happening. The government is putting limits on the maximum train

:53:19.:53:22.

companies can charge at all that means is that the average will still

:53:23.:53:30.

go up by a love inflation, so for the next year and for the

:53:31.:53:33.

foreseeable future, since government hasn't set a date for ending this,

:53:34.:53:39.

we will have continued above`inflation fare rises of at

:53:40.:53:42.

least one present a year. All the government has done is said the

:53:43.:53:46.

companies can only charge another 2% on top of that. `` at least 1%. The

:53:47.:53:54.

government is putting extra taxes on people working by charging higher

:53:55.:53:58.

rail fares. We'll put that Mark reckless in a moment. It is

:53:59.:54:03.

significant, isn't it, because of all the commuter routes into London

:54:04.:54:07.

we've discovered that nine out of ten top rail fare increases were for

:54:08.:54:10.

journeys from stations in Kent or East Sussex it's a massive issue in

:54:11.:54:18.

the South East, isn't it? A huge issue in the South East,

:54:19.:54:21.

particularly in the marginals that are going to decide the next

:54:22.:54:28.

election. In Maidstone, where people are now paying 87% more for an

:54:29.:54:31.

annual season ticket than ten years ago, and that is going to carry on

:54:32.:54:36.

going up by above inflation of at least 1% over the next couple of

:54:37.:54:46.

years, people will be hit. A very quick answer to this, because I want

:54:47.:54:50.

to ask our guests in the studio, but Caroline Lucas, the green Brighton

:54:51.:54:55.

Pavilion MP, says it's time to re`nationalise the railways. Would

:54:56.:55:00.

that make a difference? Not necessarily, depending on what the

:55:01.:55:03.

Treasury do to control this. You could still have a nationalised

:55:04.:55:07.

railway and above inflation fare rises. Thank you very much.

:55:08.:55:15.

Nationalisation ` it's interesting, isn't it? Will Scobey, at the Labour

:55:16.:55:20.

Party conference, members voted in favour. You weren't there but would

:55:21.:55:26.

you have voted in favour? They voted in favour of this being something

:55:27.:55:32.

that the party looks that come. `` looks at. I think we should have all

:55:33.:55:38.

options looked at. When we are discussing all this about the

:55:39.:55:41.

increases, it's all coming back to the cost of living agenda that Ed

:55:42.:55:46.

Miliband has been leading on. The Conservatives talking about fuel

:55:47.:55:48.

prices and rail fares is just responding to what Ed Miliband has

:55:49.:55:52.

said and the most important thing coming out of the conference was the

:55:53.:55:56.

energy prices. That is a way of helping people directly. But we're

:55:57.:56:02.

not talking about that. They've stolen a march on you, Mark, and

:56:03.:56:07.

what is patiently absurd is to talk about a rail fare increase of

:56:08.:56:13.

anywhere between 4.10% and 6.10% and talk about putting money back in

:56:14.:56:18.

people's pockets. I don't think we are responding to Ed Miliband and

:56:19.:56:21.

him driving up the cost of living as energy secretary. 6.10% on top of

:56:22.:56:28.

something that may cost you ?5,000 already and you expect us to believe

:56:29.:56:32.

it is putting money back in our pockets. Under the last

:56:33.:56:37.

government... I'm not talking about the previous government. It's only

:56:38.:56:47.

going up by RPI plus 1%. A flexibility of 2%`5%. I would like

:56:48.:56:56.

to see a cut in fares by 2015. You are entirely in line with the Labour

:56:57.:57:02.

Party. 1% above inflation? We can city and try and split hairs but

:57:03.:57:06.

both parties believe in caps above inflation. I support what Mark said.

:57:07.:57:12.

We need to get to the root of inflation. Labour is leading on this

:57:13.:57:17.

issue and coming up with schemes that will money back in pockets. The

:57:18.:57:24.

Tories are just responding to that, and not very well. I'm not sure we

:57:25.:57:30.

do believe in that. We have already brought it down to 1% above

:57:31.:57:36.

inflation. I would like to freeze or cut fares. Is anyone at the

:57:37.:57:39.

Department for transport listening to you? You've gone some distance

:57:40.:57:45.

but there is a long way still to go. They're listening. I'm going to give

:57:46.:57:52.

up the campaign until they succeed. A round`up now of all the other

:57:53.:57:55.

political events you might have missed this week.

:57:56.:58:02.

Are you a Kent teenager looking for a job? Then this could be for you.

:58:03.:58:12.

Kent PCC and Barnes has begun recruitment for a new youth

:58:13.:58:14.

commission after Paris Brown resigned in April.

:58:15.:58:19.

Almost 60 years after he took his own life after being convicted of

:58:20.:58:24.

gross indecency under anti`homosexuality legislation, Alan

:58:25.:58:26.

Turing could be pardoned. What happened to him was completely wrong

:58:27.:58:33.

and everyone can now see that. Caroline Lucas was in court this

:58:34.:58:39.

week. She faces two charges, including obstructing a highway,

:58:40.:58:43.

during an anti`fracking protest. I want to join others in actively

:58:44.:58:47.

opposing the expectation of yet more fossil fuels.

:58:48.:58:51.

Eric Pickles has been venturing across the states. A pair of

:58:52.:58:55.

students from Kent took a cardboard cutout of him on their American

:58:56.:59:00.

travels. They said they chose him because he is a heavyweight

:59:01.:59:08.

politician and a funny guy. Students' troubles get more bizarre.

:59:09.:59:11.

Let's talk about young people in politics. A Kent teenager as a youth

:59:12.:59:19.

commission. We've had one rather uncomfortable experience with that

:59:20.:59:22.

recruitment process already. Do we need one? Can one person represent

:59:23.:59:27.

what all young people feel? I don't think so. And has done a good job of

:59:28.:59:43.

looking at the issue. `` an. Do you think it is impossible to find

:59:44.:59:46.

someone that doesn't have anything uncomfortable? I think it is

:59:47.:59:50.

difficult and fraught with problems and there are other ways you can

:59:51.:59:55.

engage with young people. I think it was a mistake and I just thought the

:59:56.:59:58.

pressure put on this young lady was terrible. I felt and Barnes should

:59:59.:00:03.

have taken responsible tea. She shouldn't have put in that

:00:04.:00:06.

position. She should have apologised. Interesting hearing

:00:07.:00:14.

David Cameron talking about Alan Turing. We are at the end of

:00:15.:00:20.

anti`hate crime week. The Whitstable local newspaper caused a storm by

:00:21.:00:24.

printing an article with the headline" take heed, all ye

:00:25.:00:35.

homosexual sinners. " Is the South East bigoted? I don't think so.

:00:36.:00:39.

We've got to challenge people to spread love. There was a quote from

:00:40.:00:47.

the Bible. It was about the campaigns by Stonewall. The response

:00:48.:00:51.

was a letter quoting the Bible but headline that the newspaper made up

:00:52.:00:54.

themselves telling homosexual sinners to take heed. I think some

:00:55.:00:59.

religious people feel fairly hard done by themselves but I think we

:01:00.:01:05.

have to tolerate and indeed celebrate everyone in our society

:01:06.:01:09.

and I'm pleased that we're agreed on that across the political spectrum.

:01:10.:01:15.

On cue both very much. `` thank you. That's all we've got time for from

:01:16.:01:20.

the South East this week. BBC South East has a day of special reports

:01:21.:01:22.

tomorrow, examining the performance and public perception of the

:01:23.:01:25.

country's first ever Green`led council, Brighton and Hove. I'll see

:01:26.:01:30.

you in a couple of weeks. Goodbye. which links in with this. Thank you

:01:31.:01:35.

to both of you for being my guests today.

:01:36.:01:45.

Are the Lib Dems like a wonky shopping trolley? Why is Nick Clegg

:01:46.:01:53.

kicking off over free schools? And what about Boris and George's love

:01:54.:01:59.

bombing of China? All questions for The Week Ahead. We are joined now by

:02:00.:02:06.

the former Home Office minister and Liberal Democrat MP Jeremy Browne.

:02:07.:02:09.

Jeremy Browne, let me ask you this key question - ??GAPNEXT who is in

:02:10.:02:17.

the ascendancy in your party, those who would fear to the left, or those

:02:18.:02:23.

who would fear to the centre? The point I was making in the interview

:02:24.:02:27.

that I gave to the times was that I want us to be unambiguously and on

:02:28.:02:38.

up genetically -- and unapologetically a Liberal party. I

:02:39.:02:43.

do not want us to be craving the approval of columnists like Polly

:02:44.:02:48.

Toynbee. I do not want us to be a pale imitation of the Labour Party.

:02:49.:02:52.

I think we should be proud and unambiguously a authentic Liberal

:02:53.:02:56.

party. That is my ambition for the party. If it is, as you put it,

:02:57.:03:01.

fearing to the left, then I think that is a mistake, I think we should

:03:02.:03:06.

be on the liberal centre ground But is it actually veering to the left,

:03:07.:03:12.

your party? I think there is a danger when a party, or any

:03:13.:03:16.

organisation, feels that it is in a difficult position, to look

:03:17.:03:24.

inwards, to look for reassuring familiar policy positions. I do not

:03:25.:03:29.

want us to be the party which looks inwards and speaks to the 9% of

:03:30.:03:33.

people who are minded to support us already. I want us to look outwards

:03:34.:03:38.

and speak to the 91% of the population, for whom I think we have

:03:39.:03:41.

got a good story to tell about the contribution we have made to getting

:03:42.:03:44.

the deficit down, cutting crime keeping interest rates low, and

:03:45.:03:51.

also, distinctive Liberal Democrat policies for example on income tax

:03:52.:03:54.

and pupil premiums. If we look like we are a party which is uneasy and

:03:55.:03:58.

ambivalent about our role in government, people will not give us

:03:59.:04:02.

credit for the successes of the government, and we will not be able

:04:03.:04:05.

to claim the authorship which we should be able to claim for our

:04:06.:04:09.

policies excesses in government I want us to be confident, outward

:04:10.:04:15.

looking, and authentically liberal. If we are that, people real sense

:04:16.:04:19.

that and they will respond positively. Does that not therefore

:04:20.:04:24.

make it rather strange that Nick Craig should choose to distance

:04:25.:04:28.

himself from the coalition's schools policy? Well, I support free

:04:29.:04:36.

schools, I think they are a liberal policy. Education is a fascinating

:04:37.:04:45.

area, so let's explore it a bit We have had two very significant and

:04:46.:04:48.

troubling reports in the last fortnight, one from Alan Milburn,

:04:49.:04:51.

saying that social mobility has stalled in this country, in other

:04:52.:04:55.

words, what your parents do is a reliable guide to how you will get

:04:56.:04:59.

on in life and the other saying that Britain lags behind our

:05:00.:05:02.

competitors, the other industrialised countries, in terms

:05:03.:05:06.

of the educational attainment of 15-year-olds. Both of those are

:05:07.:05:11.

worrying. We have a scandalous situation in this country where two

:05:12.:05:13.

thirds of children from disadvantaged backgrounds are

:05:14.:05:20.

failing to get five Grade A to Grade C. Some get none at all. If we were

:05:21.:05:27.

the world leaders in education, we could have an interesting

:05:28.:05:30.

conversation about how we are able to maintain that position, but we

:05:31.:05:34.

are not. Whether there are good things one less good things which

:05:35.:05:37.

have happened in our schools over the last 30-40 years, we really need

:05:38.:05:41.

to raise our game and stop letting young people down who need a good

:05:42.:05:46.

quality education in order to realise their full potential in

:05:47.:05:49.

life. It sounds like you do not share Mr Clegg's designations? I

:05:50.:05:56.

think there are two big dangers for us as a party. I do not think we

:05:57.:06:02.

should be instinctively statist and I do not think either we should be

:06:03.:06:05.

instinctively in favour of the status quo. I want us to have a

:06:06.:06:09.

restless, radical, energetic, liberal reforming instinct, which is

:06:10.:06:14.

about putting more power and responsible at the end opportunity

:06:15.:06:18.

in the hands of individual people. As I say, we look at the education

:06:19.:06:22.

system, of course there are good teachers and good outcomes in some

:06:23.:06:25.

schools and for some pupils, overall, our performance in this

:06:26.:06:30.

country is not good enough, so the status quo has not been a successful

:06:31.:06:35.

stop I am interested in how we can innovate. -- has not been a success.

:06:36.:06:48.

Are the Tories wooing you? Well I do not know if that is the right

:06:49.:06:53.

word, I have been reported, and I have set myself, that the

:06:54.:07:00.

Conservatives have, if you like made some advances or generous

:07:01.:07:05.

suggestions to me, but I am a liberal, and I am a Liberal

:07:06.:07:08.

Democrat. I have been a member of the Lib Dems since the party was

:07:09.:07:11.

founded, I joined when I was 18 years old. I have campaigned

:07:12.:07:16.

tirelessly for the Liberal Democrats for my entire adult life, so I am

:07:17.:07:20.

not about to go and join another political party. I would turn this

:07:21.:07:24.

on its head, let me put it like this, I think there are quite a few

:07:25.:07:31.

liberals in the other political parties, people like Alan Milburn,

:07:32.:07:34.

who wrote a report on social mobility, people like Nick Bowles in

:07:35.:07:39.

the Conservative Party. Our ambition, as Liberal Democrats,

:07:40.:07:42.

should be to attract liberals from other political parties, and no

:07:43.:07:52.

political party, to the Lib Dems. Just briefly, have you suggested

:07:53.:07:57.

that the Tories do not run a candidate against you in the next

:07:58.:08:02.

election? I have not suggested anything of the sort. The

:08:03.:08:06.

Conservatives have to make their own decisions about which candidates

:08:07.:08:10.

they select, and I will take on whoever is select it from each of

:08:11.:08:14.

the political parties. Thank you for joining us. There is a danger not

:08:15.:08:27.

from Jeremy Browne, but from Mr Clegg, in that, having been part of

:08:28.:08:32.

a coalition which has gone through an enormous squeeze in living

:08:33.:08:35.

standards for three years, it did not look like both was coming, it

:08:36.:08:39.

was being regarded overall as a failure, but now, it may be turning

:08:40.:08:45.

the corner, so why would you then start to disassociate yourself from

:08:46.:08:50.

the coalition's policies? Yes, the danger for Nick Clegg is that he

:08:51.:08:54.

makes the Liberal Democrats looked like visitors in a guesthouse, a

:08:55.:08:58.

guesthouse which is owned by the Conservatives. As you say, they were

:08:59.:09:02.

there for the three difficult years, and just at the moment when the

:09:03.:09:05.

economy seems to be coming right, and we are getting some nice growth,

:09:06.:09:09.

they seek to distance themselves. It is interesting that Jeremy Browne

:09:10.:09:15.

came out with the outrageously disloyal statement that he supported

:09:16.:09:19.

free schools statement. That is a disloyal Liberal Democrat view, but

:09:20.:09:22.

on Thursday, of course, the Liberal Democrat party was in favour of free

:09:23.:09:26.

schools, because in that statement about the Al-Madinah school, David

:09:27.:09:30.

Laws made a passionate defence about what Nick Clegg is now criticising,

:09:31.:09:33.

which is having on qualified teachers. If things are now coming

:09:34.:09:43.

right, the big risk for the Liberal Democrats always was that they would

:09:44.:09:47.

not get the credit anyway. Well if they diss associate themselves like

:09:48.:09:50.

this, they definitely will not get the credit. It depends which voters

:09:51.:09:56.

their opinion poll ratings are dire, he spoke about 9%, and sometimes it

:09:57.:10:01.

is less than that. So, where are they going to get those voters

:10:02.:10:05.

from? They have not got those anti-Iraq war voters. Is it not

:10:06.:10:11.

Mission impossible, getting Labour voters test surely the left of the

:10:12.:10:15.

Lib Dem vote is peeling off towards labour, not away from Labour? I

:10:16.:10:22.

wonder to what extent, and this might be speculation, this might be

:10:23.:10:28.

organised and arranged, that Cameron and Clegg both understand that they

:10:29.:10:33.

have groups of voters that they need to get, so they need to send

:10:34.:10:36.

messages out to different groups, it looks like a bit of a setup to me.

:10:37.:10:45.

Boris in China, along with boy George - let's have a look... Who,

:10:46.:10:54.

according to JK Rowling, was Harry Potter's first girlfriend? That s

:10:55.:10:59.

right, and she is Chinese overseas student, is that not right at

:11:00.:11:07.

Hogwarts? Actually, we are not sure it is right, she is actually from

:11:08.:11:11.

Scotland. It is not only London which has a diverse society. Putting

:11:12.:11:17.

that to one side, we are inviting the Chinese into finance our power

:11:18.:11:21.

stations, to run big banks in the cities, we are giving out more visas

:11:22.:11:26.

to them, are we right to embrace the Dragon? What worries me about the

:11:27.:11:30.

power stations then, it is 30% of investment, and it reminds me a lot

:11:31.:11:36.

of PFI, the idea that you do not want a huge investment on your

:11:37.:11:39.

balance sheet, but if somebody bails out halfway through, we cannot stop

:11:40.:11:46.

with a half finished power station. It is EDF, the French company, which

:11:47.:11:50.

will actually build it, and we will be guaranteeing the debt for them.

:11:51.:11:57.

It is extraordinary that there has been so little adverse comment after

:11:58.:12:01.

George Osborne and Boris's trip to China, and is it now really the UK

:12:02.:12:06.

Government policy, to sell Britain to the Chinese? There was a debate

:12:07.:12:15.

in government about this, as they were getting ready for the trip and

:12:16.:12:20.

there will be at some point in the next six months be a David Cameron

:12:21.:12:24.

trip to China. He has had to wait three years because they were

:12:25.:12:26.

annoyed about him meeting the Dalai llama. There were some people in the

:12:27.:12:30.

Foreign Office who were saying, fine, but tread carefully. George

:12:31.:12:36.

Osborne's view is absolutely not, get in there, I do not care about

:12:37.:12:42.

any of these problems, get stuck in. I think he is storing up five

:12:43.:12:48.

years since the financial crisis, Chinese banks are being given a

:12:49.:12:52.

special, light touch regulatory regime. What could possibly go

:12:53.:13:03.

wrong?! There is lots to see. Energy prices have continued to dominate

:13:04.:13:10.

this week. We have got the EDF deal, whereby we are going to be giving

:13:11.:13:13.

them twice the market rate for their energy. But for the coalition, all

:13:14.:13:20.

eyes are on the GDP figures. The expectation and hope is that the

:13:21.:13:25.

recovery will be stronger than the figures have suggested so far, on

:13:26.:13:31.

which basis it can influence the result of the next general

:13:32.:13:36.

election. The chief economist at the Bank of England was saying on

:13:37.:13:39.

Twitter last week that the Bank of England may now bring forward the

:13:40.:13:43.

assessment when it says, maybe we are going to have to change monetary

:13:44.:13:46.

policy, if unemployment goes below 7%. And we know what that means

:13:47.:13:56.

interest rates. The Bank of England on Twitter! That is it for today.

:13:57.:14:01.

The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two. I will be back with

:14:02.:14:04.

prime Minster 's questions on Wednesday, and of course, we will be

:14:05.:14:08.

back at 11 o'clock on BBC One next Sunday.

:14:09.:14:15.

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