Browse content similar to 20/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning and welcome to The Sunday Politics. Alex Salmond says a | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
vote for Scottish independence would be an act of national self belief. | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
His deputy joins us live from the SNP conference in Perth. Is | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
Whitehall meddling too much in modern affairs? The Communities | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
Secretary, Eric Pickles, joins me for The Sunday Interview. Senior | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
coppers will be answering questions this week over the | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
And in the South East: Working but still poor ` we visit the East | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
Sussex town where the Labour council says the minimum wage of ?6.31 an | :01:16. | :01:17. | |
hour just isn't enough. London, does the London assembly | :01:18. | :01:18. | |
have one arm tied behind its back? All of that to come. And the Home | :01:19. | :01:34. | |
Office minister sacked by Nick Clegg, who says his party is like a | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
wonky shopping trolley, which keeps veering off to the left. He will | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
join us live at noon. With me to unpack all of this, Nick Watt, Helen | :01:44. | :01:51. | |
Lewis and Iain Martin. They will be tweeting throughout the programme, | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
using hashtag #bbcsp. It is the last day of the Scottish national party | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
conference in Perth. We have discovered that Alex Salmond has | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
been on the same diet as Beyonce. The SNP leader compared his attempts | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
to lose weight with the campaign for independence - lots achieved so far, | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
20 more to do. In a moment, I will be joined by the deputy leader of | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. First they report on the independence | :02:20. | :02:30. | |
campaign. September 18 2014, the date of destiny for Scotland, the | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
day when these campaigners hope its people will decide to vote yes for | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
independence. In a recent poll, only 14% said they knew enough to vote | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
either way. That is unlikely to change any time soon. I think the | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
Scottish people will be going to the polls next year still not knowing an | :02:50. | :02:51. | |
awful lot of stuff which is important, because the outcome, in | :02:52. | :02:58. | |
terms of taxation, debt, exactly what will happen to the allocation | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
of assets between the two countries, will come about as a result of | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
negotiation between a Scottish government and the UK Government. | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
That is not stuff which will be known year. At the moment, polls | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
suggest Scotland will decide to remain within the UK. A recent | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
survey found that 44% of those questioned planned to vote no, 5% | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
yes. But interestingly, the undecideds were at 31%, suggesting | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
that Alex Salmond's task might be tough but not impossible. There are | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
a number of reasons which make a vanilla campaign a good idea. It | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
does not put off cautious voters, it allows for people to imagine their | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
own version of what independence will be like, and crucially, it | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
allows for the yes campaign to take advantage of any mistakes by the no | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
campaign. In other words, the yes campaign are not out there with big | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
ideas, they are just waiting for the no campaign to trip up. What we do | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
know is that whatever happens next September, Scotland will be getting | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
more power. From 2016, a separate income tax regime will come into | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
force, giving the Scottish Parliament control over billions of | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
pounds of revenue. What we do not know yet is how the alternative | :04:15. | :04:17. | |
would pan out. There are issues which would be raised by | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
independence, issues about how the national debt is allocated, what the | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
currency will look like, how an independent Scotland would balance | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
the books, because it would have a bigger job to do, even down the | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
Whitehall government has to do. Those are really big issues, which a | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
Scottish government would have to face, on top of whatever negotiation | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
it had to have with the UK Government. The Scottish | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
government's White Paper on independence, two to be published | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
within weeks, should fill in some of the banks. But how Scotland votes in | :04:48. | :04:55. | |
September may yet be determined by what it feels rather than what it | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
knows. And joining me from Perth is Scotland's Deputy First Minister, | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon, we meet again! Hello, Andrew. Former | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
leader of the SNP Gordon Wilson said, if this referendum fails, it | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
will fail on the basis that people put their British identity ahead of | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
their Scottish identity, so we have got to attack on the British | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
identity - what does he mean? Gordon Wilson is a very respected, much | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
loved former leader of the SNP. My view is that I do not think the | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
independence referendum is really about identity. I am secure and | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
proud of my Scottish identity, but this is a decision about where power | :05:40. | :05:46. | |
best lies. Do decision-making powers best lie here in Scotland, with a | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
government which is directly accountable to the people of | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
Scotland, or does it best lie in Westminster, with governments which, | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
very often, people in Scotland do not vote for? That is the issue at | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
the heart of the campaign. Let me just clarify, you do not agree with | :06:04. | :06:13. | |
him, that you need to go on the attack with regard to the British | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
identity of Scottish people? No I do not think we are required to | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
attack British identity. It is absolutely compatible for somebody | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
to feel a sense of British identity but still support Scottish | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
independence, because Scottish independence is about a transfer of | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
power. It is about good government, accountable government, ensuring | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
that decisions are taking here in Scotland, by people who have got the | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
biggest stake in getting those decisions right. I represent a | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
constituency in the south side of Glasgow, and if you speak to many | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
people in my constituency, if you ask them their national identity, | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
many of them would say Irish, Pakistani, Indian, Polish, and many | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
of them will vote yes next year because they understand the issue at | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
stake, which is the issue of where decisions are best taken. It looks | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
like you are changing tack ex-, you have realised the softly softly | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
approach, of saying that actually, nothing much will change, we will | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
still have the Queen, the currency, and all the rest of it, is moving | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
over towards voting for a left-wing future for Scotland... Well, I know | :07:21. | :07:27. | |
that what we are doing is pointing out is pointing out the choice | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
between two futures. If we vote yes, we take our own future into our own | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
hands. We make sure that for ever after, we have governments which | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
will be in demented policies which we have voted for. If we do not | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
become independent, then we continue to run the risk of having | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
governments not only that we do not vote for, but often, that Scotland | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
rejects. We are seeing the dismantling of our system of social | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
security. There are politicians in all of the UK parties who are | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
itching to cut Scotland's share of spending. So Scotland faces a choice | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
of two futures, and it is right to point out the positive consequences | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
of voting yes, but also the consequences of voting no. But you | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
are promising to reverse benefit cuts and increase the minimum wage. | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
You would renationalise the Royal Mail, though how you would do that | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
nobody knows. You are promising to cut energy bills. These are the kind | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
of promises that parties make in a general election campaign, not in a | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
once in 300 years extra stench or choice. Is the future of Scotland | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
really going to be decided on the size of the minimum wage? -- | :08:43. | :08:51. | |
existential choice. A yes vote would be about bringing decision-making | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
powers home, but we are also setting out some of the things an SNP | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
government would do, if elected A decision on what the first | :09:04. | :09:05. | |
government of an independent Scotland would be would not be taken | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
in the referendum, that decision would be taken in the 2016 election. | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
And all of the parties will put forward their offers to the | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
electorate. We are setting out some of the things which we think it is | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
important to be prioritised. These are things which have a lot of | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
support in Scotland. We see the pain being felt by people because of the | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
rising cost of energy bills, there is widespread opposition to some of | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
the welfare cuts. So, we are setting out the options which are open to | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
Scotland, but only open to Scotland if we have the powers of | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
independence. Given that you seem to be promising aid permanent socialist | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
near Varna, if Scotland is independent, if you are right of | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
centre in Scotland, and I understand that is a minority pursuit where you | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
are, but it would be a big mistake to vote for independence, in that | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
case, wouldn't it? No, because the whole point of independence is that | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
people get the country they want, and the government a vote for. So, | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
right of centre people should not vote for independence? No, because | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
people who are of that political persuasion in Scotland get the | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
opportunity to vote for parties which represent that persuasion and | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
if they can persuade a majority to vote likewise, then they will get a | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
government which reflects that. That is the essence of independence. | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
Right now, we have a Westminster government which most people in | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
Scotland rejected at the last general election. That is hardly | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
democratic. It is right and proper that the SNP, as the current | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
government, points out the opportunities that would be opening | :10:46. | :11:00. | |
up. Can I just clarify one thing, when we spoke on The Daily Politics | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
earlier last week, you made it clear to me that Alex Salmond, we know he | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
wants to debate with David Cameron, but you made it clear to me that he | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
would debate with Alistair Darling as well, and Mr Carmichael... He | :11:15. | :11:24. | |
made it clear yesterday. Well, he said to the BBC this morning that he | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
would only debate with these people after he had had a debate with Mr | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
Cameron, so who is right? I was making the point last week, and Alex | :11:31. | :11:37. | |
Salmond was making it yesterday and this morning - let's have that | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
agreement by David Cameron to come and debate with Alex Salmond, and | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
then Alex Salmond, just like me will debate with allcomers. So if he | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
does not get the David Cameron debate, then he will not do the | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
others, is that right? Let's focus on is wading David Cameron to do the | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
right thing. So, in other words he will not debate, yes or no? Members | :12:02. | :12:10. | |
of the SNP government... We know that, but what about Alex Salmond? | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
He said yesterday, we will debate with all sorts of people, including | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
the people you have spoken about, but David Cameron should not be let | :12:20. | :12:35. | |
off the hook just putting aside the independence issue, energy prices | :12:36. | :12:43. | |
are now even playing into the SNP, so every political party has to do | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
something about energy prices. Yes, it is clearly it is interesting is | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
the difference between the SNP and the Labour approach. Ed Miliband | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
electrified the party conference season when he said he would freeze | :12:58. | :13:00. | |
energy prices for 20 months, seemingly having an amazing control | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
over the energy market, where we know that essentially what pushes | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
prices up the wholesale prices on world market. What Nicola Sturgeon | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
is talking about is actually saying, this amount is added to your bills | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
for green levies, and we are going to take them off your bills and they | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
will be paid out of general taxation in an independent Scotland. That is | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
a credible government, making a credible case, very different to | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
what Labour is saying, although playing to the same agenda. So, | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
Labour has got a populist policy, the SNP has also got a populist | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
policy, the one group of people that do not have a decent response to | :13:41. | :13:50. | |
this is the coalition? Exactly. What the SNP also have is a magic money | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
pot, so that speech yesterday, you are right, it was very left wing, | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
social democratic, but there was none of the icing like Labour has | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
been talking about, with fiscal responsibility. I think that is the | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
difference between the two. We know what the Tories would really like to | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
do, all of these green levies which were put on our bills in the good | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
times, when they were going to be the greenest party ever, the Tories | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
would like to say, let's just wipe out some of them, put the rest on to | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
some general government spending, but they have a problem, which is in | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Not only that, they really | :14:31. | :14:39. | |
are stuck now. But there is something in the free schools debate | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
this morning, the parties are now determined to send a message to | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
their potential voters at the next election, that they are trying to | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
fight their coalition partners. Do not expected any change in coalition | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
policy or free schools policy before the election, but we can expect to | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
hear the parties try to pretend that they are taking on their coalition | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
partners. Mr Clegg has said, we would put this free schools policy | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
into our manifesto, so is it not possible that the Tories will say, | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
if you give us an overall majority, we will cut your electricity bill | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
because we will get rid of these green levies? I think that is | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
entirely possible. The Tories know that they are stuck on this, they do | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
not have a response to Ed Miliband. How much should ministers in | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
Whitehall medal in local decisions across England? In opposition, David | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
Cameron said he wanted a fundamental shift of power from Whitehall to | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
local people. He said, when one size fits all solution is... | :15:42. | :15:59. | |
Eric Pickles described it as "an historic shift of power". But the | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
Communitites and Local Government Secretary can't stop meddling. In | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
the past few months Mr Pickles has tried to ban councils from using | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
CCTV cameras and "spy cars" to fine motorists... Told councils how to | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
act quicker to shut down illegal travellers' sites... Criticised | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
councils who want to raise council tax... Insisted councils release | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
land to residents hoping to build their own property... And stated new | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
homes should have a special built in bin storage section. It seems not a | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
week goes by without a policy announcement from the hyper active | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
Mr Pickles. So is the government still committed to localism, or is | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
it all about centralism now? And Communities Secretary Eric | :16:46. | :16:48. | |
Pickles joins me now for the Sunday Interview. | :16:49. | :17:02. | |
Welcome. Nice to be here. You said in July you were going to give town | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
halls the power to wreak their local magic. So why issue diktats from | :17:08. | :17:17. | |
Westminster? It is not about giving power to local councils, it is going | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
beyond that to local people. If local councils refuse to open up | :17:24. | :17:30. | |
their books, we have to go straight to local people. You have attacked | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
councillors using so-called spy cameras to enforce parking rules. | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
Why is that your business? Because there is an injustice taking place. | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
You cannot use fines to raise money and that is plainly happening. If | :17:48. | :17:54. | |
you get yourself a ticket from a CCTV, it could be days or weeks | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
before that lands on your doorstep and you have virtually no | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
possibility to be able to defend yourself. But just leave it to | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
people to vote out the council then. We are trying to enforce the law and | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
it clearly states that you cannot use parking fines in order to fund | :18:17. | :18:23. | |
general rate. So why are you not taking them to court if they are | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
breaking the law? There have been a number of court cases taken by local | :18:29. | :18:36. | |
residents. I am there to stand by local residents. Your even trying to | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
micromanage, allowing motorist s to park for 15 minutes in local high | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
street. Why is that your business? I'm trying to ensure that local | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
authorities understand the importance of the town centre. If | :18:54. | :19:01. | |
you look at all opinion polls, right now there is a five-minute leeway | :19:02. | :19:04. | |
but there are many cases of people being jumped on by parking officials | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
for quite trivial things. It is about saying, surely I can go and | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
get a pint of milk. But a party that dines out on localism, that is a | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
matter for local people, not the men in Whitehall. I have to be on the | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
side of local people. That person who wants to go and get a pint of | :19:29. | :19:36. | |
milk. Ultimately it is a matter for them. It is a matter for the | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
council. But a little bit of criticism is not a bad thing. You | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
have now declared war on the wheelie bin and suggested that new homes | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
should have built in storage sections. You just cannot help | :19:50. | :20:01. | |
meddling! I suppose that is possible. You are a meddler! I am in | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
charge of building regulations and planning. So I may have some | :20:08. | :20:18. | |
responsibility there. Another one, interfering in local planning | :20:19. | :20:27. | |
decisions. A couple of places, you ruled in favour of developers. They | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
want to build over 200 houses against the wishes of the parish and | :20:33. | :20:40. | |
district councils. The local MP said the Secretary of State's decision | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
runs roughshod over any concept of localism. Now I have to be a | :20:45. | :20:51. | |
blushing violet because of course this is still potentially subject to | :20:52. | :20:59. | |
judicial review. I have to act properly. And Apple went is entitled | :21:00. | :21:12. | |
to justice. -- an applicant. A local authority has a duty to ensure that | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
is adequate housing for people in their area. This was not a decision | :21:18. | :21:25. | |
that I took as a personal decision, it was on the advice of an | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
inspector. But you contradict what David Cameron himself said in 2 12, | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
he spoke about a vision where we give communities much more say and | :21:37. | :21:44. | |
local control. People in villages fear big housing estates being | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
plonked from above. You have just done exactly that. After a proper | :21:48. | :22:00. | |
quasi judicial enquiry. What we have is planning framework which local | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
people can decide where it goes But they cannot say, nothing here. They | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
have to have a five-year housing supply. Previous to this government | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
decided exactly where houses would go, now local people can take the | :22:17. | :22:25. | |
lead. Anna Silbury said because of the way your department rules, local | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
authorities now have no alternative but to agree development on green | :22:29. | :22:37. | |
belt land. I do not accept that I think around Nottingham there are | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
particular problems with regards to the green belt. The matter has been | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
referred back. the green belt. The matter has been | :22:50. | :23:00. | |
want to see development on the green belt but on Brownfield site. We want | :23:01. | :23:07. | |
to see underused land. But you have to remember why we have the green | :23:08. | :23:07. | |
belt. Not to remember why we have the green | :23:08. | :23:14. | |
nice, it is their to prevent conurbations bumping into one | :23:15. | :23:14. | |
another. Your conurbations bumping into one | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
is vocal about the need to deal what he calls the historic under | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
provision of housing. Shelter says we need 250,000 new homes per year. | :23:25. | :23:37. | |
provision of housing. Shelter says Houston statistics are getting | :23:38. | :23:37. | |
there, but nowhere near that. - housing. You cannot | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
there, but nowhere near that. - localism agenda as well as meeting | :23:41. | :23:42. | |
housing demand. I do not accept that. We inherited a position where | :23:43. | :23:55. | |
the lowest level of building since the 1920s was in place. But it has | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
steadily improved. It does take a while. You cannot have a localism | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
agenda where people call the shots on housing as well as meeting the | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
housing demand. People have a duty to ensure that future generations | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
have somewhere to live. You cannot pull up the drawbridge. There is | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
nothing incompatible between that and localism. Because someone has to | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
be the voice of those people who are going to live there and to make sure | :24:29. | :24:35. | |
there is the proper amount. Plans now exist for more than 150,000 | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
homes to be built on protected land, including the green belt. That will | :24:42. | :24:47. | |
mean riding over local concerns Each application will be taken on | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
its own merits. To suggest that there is an assault on the green | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
belt is as far from the truth as you can imagine. Should Andrew Mitchell | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
get his job back if the years exonerated? I would be honoured to | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
sit with Andrew Mitchell in the Cabinet. I have always believed his | :25:06. | :25:13. | |
version. But it is a matter for the Prime Minister who he has in | :25:14. | :25:16. | |
government. He would have no problem in seeing him back in Cabinet? | :25:17. | :25:24. | |
Absolutely not. Your mother answered Vulcan junior minister Nick balls | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
said about the Royal Charter for the press, there's nothing we have done | :25:29. | :25:35. | |
that troubles me as much as this. Is that your view? It is not. I accept | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
the compromise agreement put together. If the press want to have | :25:39. | :25:46. | |
an additional protection that the Royal Charter offers, then they can | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
move into the system. But if they want to continue independently that | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
is acceptable to me. But you previously echoed Thomas Jefferson, | :25:58. | :26:04. | |
you said for a free society to operate the river of a free press | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
has to flow without restriction That is what I said at the time We | :26:10. | :26:17. | |
had to find a compromise. And that seems to me to be a better | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
compromise. Let me just show you this little montage of pictures that | :26:24. | :26:35. | |
we have. I could not be happier Then you are in the Desert and there | :26:36. | :26:44. | |
you are in San Francisco. Then you are in the casino. That is my | :26:45. | :26:58. | |
personal favourite. These students took a cardboard cutout of you and | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
took it round the world with them. Did you ever think you would become | :27:04. | :27:10. | |
a student icon? I always felt secretly that that might happen one | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
day. But it came earlier in my career than I thought! Why would | :27:16. | :27:23. | |
they do that? I think they thought I could do with a bit of an airing! I | :27:24. | :27:30. | |
went to Norfolk earlier, but that looks better. Thank you. | :27:31. | :27:39. | |
On Wednesday senior police folk including chief constables, will be | :27:40. | :27:41. | |
questioned by MPs about what's become known as Plebgate. That's the | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
incident in Downing Street last year which led to the resignation of the | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
government chief whip Andrew Mitchell. Last week the Independent | :27:50. | :27:51. | |
Police Complaints Commission questioned the "honesty and | :27:52. | :27:53. | |
integrity" of police officers who met Mr Mitchell following the row. | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
So do scandals like this affect public trust in the police? Here's | :27:59. | :28:05. | |
Adam Fleming. It's a story of politics, the | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
police, and CCTV. No, not Andrew Mitchell, but an MP's researcher | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
called Alex Bryce and his partner Iain Feis. | :28:15. | :28:21. | |
It started on a summer night in 2011. They'd been in Parliament | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
After a few words with a police officer, Ian was wrestled to the | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
ground. Alex came to have a look and the same thing happened to him. Both | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
were arrested and charged. These pictures emerged on day one of their | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
trial. A trial that was halted because the police version of events | :28:40. | :28:46. | |
just didn't match the footage. A lot of people with incidence like this | :28:47. | :28:53. | |
which we experienced, people think there is no smoke without fire. So | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
when we said we did nothing wrong, people would think police just would | :28:58. | :29:04. | |
not do that. There is always that underlying view that some people | :29:05. | :29:07. | |
have. I think that has been challenged and people who know us | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
believe that. This year the Met apologised and paid compensation. | :29:14. | :29:16. | |
And it's led to an unlikely sort of friendship. When the truth came out | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
about the Andrew Mitchell story I actually sent him an e-mail to | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
congratulate him about the truth coming out. He did send a reply | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
acknowledging that. So where are we with THAT saga? Remember last | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
September? Andrew Mitchell had a row with police at the gates of Downing | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
Street about his bike. He lost his job as chief whip after accusations | :29:41. | :29:43. | |
he called the officers plebs. That, he's always denied. This week the | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
police watchdog the IPCC suggested that three officers may have lied | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
about a meeting with him at the height of the scandal. Add that to | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
the charge sheet of cases that haven't exactly flattered the | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
police. Like the revelation of a cover up over Hillsborough. The | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
prosecution of an officer from the Met over the death of Ian Tomlinson | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
during protests in 2009. Along with news that undercover officers were | :30:13. | :30:15. | |
told to smear the family of Stephen Lawrence. During Thursday's protest | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
by teachers in Westminster the police operation was really, really | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
relaxed. And recent scandals have done nothing to affect society's | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
view of the boys and girls in blue - or should I say hi-vis. About 6 % of | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
the public say they trust the police. And that's not budged since | :30:34. | :30:40. | |
pollsters started measuring it 0 years ago. | :30:41. | :30:50. | |
Of course, in Britain, crime is down, so the perception might be | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
that the police is doing a good job. And the rank-and-file recently | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
seamed pretty chipper at this awards ceremony. Is it a good time to be a | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
police officer? It is a good time. Despite all of the headlines? Still | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
a good time. But speak to officers privately, and they say Plebgate is | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
affecting how the public see them. Some of them also think | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
politicians, the Tories especially, are enjoying that a little too much. | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
Adam Fleming reporting there. Going head-to-head on this issue of trust | :31:26. | :31:32. | |
in the police, a Sunday Mirror columnist and Peter Kirkham, former | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
chief inspector. Peter Kirkham, let me come to you first. Plebgate, the | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
cover-ups over John Charles De menace, the death of Ian Tomlinson, | :31:44. | :31:50. | |
the industrial deception over Hillsborough, why is the culture of | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
deceit so prevalent in the police? I do not agree there is a cultural | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
deceit. These are all individual incidents which raise individual | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
issues. I would suggest that your short headline summarising each of | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
them has taken the most negative view of it. How can you be positive | :32:08. | :32:16. | |
about the police's behaviour over Hillsborough? It remains to be seen | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
with the inquiry but we are probably talking about a handful of senior | :32:21. | :32:22. | |
officers, dealing with the paperwork. Well over 100 testimonies | :32:23. | :32:33. | |
being doctored by the police. Well, those testimonies were true to start | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
with, so the officers have told the truth, and they have been changed | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
for some reason. By the police. By the police all lawyers we have got | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
this thing that the police conflates everything. There are 43 forces | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
there is ACPO, there is the College Of Policing... People say it was a | :32:54. | :33:01. | |
handful of police officers, it wasn't, it was six senior police | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
officers who were alleged to have doctored 106 D4 statements. Even | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
today we are hearing that more than 1000 officers are yet to be spoken | :33:10. | :33:17. | |
to about Hillsborough. -- 164. Do we pretend that Hillsborough, and some | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
of these examples, are the exception rather than the rule? What is the | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
evidence that this is now prevalent in our police? I think there is a | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
lot of evidence, and Plebgate is probably the thing which has | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
clinched it. The public want to know, how deep does this girl? The | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
audacity of a group of policemen who think they can set up a Cabinet | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
minister. Five of those who were arrested and bailed still have not | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
been charged. One of those officers actually wrote an e-mail pretending | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
to be a member of the public. I do not see what the problem is in | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
prosecuting them for that. Taking Plebgate, there are loads of | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
different bits of that incident There is the officers on duty in | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
Downing Street, the issue of who leaked the story to the Sun, there | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
are the officers who claim to have been there who would appear not to | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
have been there, and then we have got the West Midlands meeting | :34:15. | :34:16. | |
issue, which has sort of been resolved this week. There has been | :34:17. | :34:25. | |
misconduct. But at a lower level. But it is the audacity of an | :34:26. | :34:28. | |
organisation which thinks it can take on an elected minister and | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
destroy him for their own political purposes, at a time when the | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
Government are cutting please pay, when they are freezing their | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
pensions and reducing their numbers. It looks very much to all of us the | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
public, that the police are at war with the government, and they are | :34:46. | :34:48. | |
going to do anything they can to discredit the Government. The police | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
would have every reason to be at war with the Government, because there | :34:53. | :35:02. | |
if there is a crisis of trust.. But it looks like they fitted up a | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
Cabinet minister. That remains to be seen, it is being investigated. We | :35:08. | :35:13. | |
know that those Birmingham officers, they totally misrepresented to, if | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
not lied outright, about what was said. Again, that is a | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
misrepresentation of what happened. If you actually go and look at what | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
is said, it is plain from the context, they were saying, he has | :35:26. | :35:32. | |
told us nothing new. But he had in the transcript, it said he hadn t. | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
He would not admit he had used the word pleb. He apologised profusely, | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
he said it would never happen again, he said many things that he had not | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
said before. I agree, which is presumably... Thereon many police | :35:49. | :35:54. | |
forces in this country, they have one of the toughest jobs in the | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
land, they end up getting involved in almost anything which happens in | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
society, and there are obviously a number of difficult examples, but | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
what is the evidence that it is out of hand, other than just several bad | :36:10. | :36:17. | |
apples? This bad apples argument, we have some amazing police people | :36:18. | :36:20. | |
thank God, but it is because of those that we have to root out the | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
bad ones, the ones that are possibly corrupt. From where most of us are | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
standing, the ones who are being accused of being corrupt, there does | :36:30. | :36:31. | |
not seem to be any process to deal with these people. The trouble with | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
a rotten apple is that it spreads. It is not fair on the good cops to | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
be tainted by this, and I think the police force, as an institution .. | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
For all of us, we have to respect the police. There is a problem, is | :36:45. | :36:52. | |
there not? People do worry that if you can fit up a Cabinet minister, | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
you can fit up anybody... . I would disagree that anybody has proved | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
that anybody has been fitted up We are yet to hear what happened at the | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
gates of Downing Street. But what we do know about the gates of Downing | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
Street is that we were told by the police officers that passers-by had | :37:11. | :37:17. | |
heard this incredible row, where Mitchell's file went | :37:18. | :37:19. | |
heard this incredible row, where That is not true... . They did not | :37:20. | :37:31. | |
use those words, actually. All right, but it is clear that the | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
Police Federation jumped on this as a politically motivated campaign... | :37:38. | :37:45. | |
I have always said that politics should be kept out of policing. The | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
federation, they cannot go on strike, but this was to covertly | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
political, so I criticise them for that. Do we need a better way of | :37:54. | :38:00. | |
monitoring the police? We need a more competent and properly | :38:01. | :38:03. | |
resourced Independent police commission. But if you look at those | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
Bravery Awards, every police officer, every year, who acts with | :38:10. | :38:16. | |
bravery... That is the police force we want to believe in. That is the | :38:17. | :38:23. | |
police force you have got. We will leave it there. Coming up in just | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
over 20 minutes, I will be speaking to former Lib Minister Jeremy | :38:28. | :38:28. | |
Browne. And in The Week Ahead, Hello, I'm Julia George and this is | :38:29. | :38:45. | |
the Sunday Politics in the South East. Coming up later: | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
Re`nationalise the railways? Cap the fares? With families in the | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
South East facing their own cost of living crisis, what is the answer to | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
inflation busting rail fare rises? Joining me in the studio today to | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
discuss this and other topics is the Conservative MP for Rochester and | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
Strood, Mark Reckless. And the Labour Party's prospective | :39:04. | :39:05. | |
Parliamentary candidate for Thanet South, Will Scobie. Great to have | :39:06. | :39:19. | |
you both with us. We'll be having two big debates about how much we | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
earn and how much things cost. But let's start with education ` our | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
children's best chance of a better life. Kent's grammar schools are not | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
offering enough places to bright children from disadvantaged | :39:31. | :39:32. | |
backgrounds, according to David Laws, the Liberal Democrat schools | :39:33. | :39:34. | |
minister. He says in terms of achievement, children on free school | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
meals still lag too far behind children from better off families. | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
So, what can be done to extend educational opportunity to all? | :39:42. | :39:48. | |
I assume most people think that bright, poor children should go to | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
grammar school in greater numbers than they usually do. How do we | :39:52. | :39:58. | |
achieve that? What we've been doing is we've introduced the pupil | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
premium so that children who are on free school meals, extra money goes | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
to those schools depending on how many of those kids there. That money | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
has to be focused on their education. Should they, for | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
instance, be getting tutoring? Because that has made it possible | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
for wealthier families, some would say, to buy a place in grammar | :40:19. | :40:25. | |
school. The Sub Trust are asking whether they should get the same | :40:26. | :40:28. | |
advantage whether they have got the ability to pay. `` Sutton Trust. I | :40:29. | :40:41. | |
wonder if we did have primary schools familiarising people with a | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
test, doing things in terms of helping children with that so it | :40:46. | :40:46. | |
doesn't come as helping children with that so it | :40:47. | :40:47. | |
doesn'sn'%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%sn'%%%%%%% helping children with that so it | :40:48. | :40:48. | |
doesn't come as a shock to them, I ship that will `` I think that will | :40:49. | :40:55. | |
reduce some of the advantage. But the pupil premium is focused on | :40:56. | :40:58. | |
basic skills and that should feed through, as well. It will take time | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
to come through. Apart from tutoring and the cost of it, there are other | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
disincentives to a child from a deprived background wanting to go to | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
grammar school, aren't there? In the sense that you wouldn't fit in, | :41:15. | :41:21. | |
there is uniform, which is up to ?49 for a school dress. A sense that | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
everyone is posher than you. How do we overcome that? It comes back to | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
the attainment gap. That is the issue we need to focus on. I want | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
you to focus on why we haven't got children going to grammar school. | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
International research has shown that intervention in preschool years | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
will have a bigger impact. I think we need to focus the debate on Sure | :41:47. | :41:53. | |
Start. You can focus the debate on that, I'm not going to. Are there | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
disincentives for poor children and should we do some thing about it? | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
Yes, but we want to focus on preschool years in Kent. Kent county | :42:03. | :42:09. | |
council is closing a quarter of Sure, grow start... We've spoken | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
about that before and we are not going to be hijacked into doing it | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
again now. I think certain types of families going is wrong. We should | :42:21. | :42:21. | |
encourage everyone families going is wrong. We should | :42:22. | :42:22. | |
encou I encou%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% families going is wrong. We should | :42:23. | :42:23. | |
encourage everyone to take the test and have support to do that for | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
people across the social spectrum to get them into our grammar schools so | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
that kids with the highest potential get that education. We will see if | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
it happens because the Kent test results have just come out. We all | :42:37. | :42:45. | |
know living in the South East can be a real drain on our finances, and | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
just because you've got a job it doesn't necessarily follow that you | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
have enough money to afford all the basics. Now a Labour council in East | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
Sussex thinks it's come up with a way of changing that. Their idea ` | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
the minimum wage of ?6.31 an hour is not enough. They want to pay not | :43:01. | :43:03. | |
just staff but contractors more than that to guarantee what's called the | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
living wage. And they want the whole town to be in on it. In a minute | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
we'll here from one businessman who thinks the living wage would be | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
dangerous. They say money makes the world go | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
around but one in six workers in the South East don't even earn enough to | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
give them a decent standard of living. Cleaners, bar staff and shop | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
workers are the most likely to earn below the living wage, which is ?7 | :43:32. | :43:40. | |
45 and our outside London. `` ?7.45 per hour. But this borough council | :43:41. | :43:46. | |
is trying to turn that around. It already pays its employees the | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
living wage, which is corrugated on the basic cost of living. It now | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
wants people employed through contract is to be paid the same. The | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
council hopes other employers will follow the example so Hastings will | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
become a living wage town. I don't want Hastings Borough Council to be | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
in the lead when we race to the bottom to see who can provide the | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
cheapest services and who will take the lowest wage. It's a matter of | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
decency and fairness. The minimum wage is a minimum but it is the very | :44:17. | :44:22. | |
minimum in terms of rising living standards, fuel costs, food costs. | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
That is the basic minimum and a living wage is really what people | :44:27. | :44:34. | |
required to live on. Hayley received a slight pay rise when she started | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
earning a living wage at this mercenary in Brighton, which is run | :44:39. | :44:45. | |
by the Sussex Community NHS trust. We noticed it straightaway and it | :44:46. | :44:48. | |
was quite substantial leap and what it equates to is that I can take my | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
children for a day out once a month. It has enriched our lives not | :44:54. | :45:00. | |
a huge amount, but so that we can just enjoy our lifestyles of it | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
better. I think it's a really good thing that the trust is doing it and | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
hopefully, other, larger corporations will follow suit | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
because it does enrich lives. Hayley is one of 300 employees paid the | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
living wage, which costs the trust an extra ?21,000 a year. It will | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
help recruit staff to the organisation, people will see we are | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
the right kind of organisation. We'll have a reduction in our | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
temporary staffing costs, which are usually expensive because we have to | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
pay a premium. There are direct benefits to productivity and | :45:36. | :45:37. | |
efficiency that come from having a more motivated, or enthusiastic | :45:38. | :45:43. | |
workforce. Childcare is another sector where workers are unlikely to | :45:44. | :45:50. | |
earn a living wage. But the widespread introduction of the | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
living wage could save the government ?2 billion a year, | :45:55. | :46:03. | |
according to a think tank. They say the government would collect more | :46:04. | :46:06. | |
income tax and pay less in benefits and tax credits. Campaigners also | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
insist local authorities can influence other employers. What | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
Hastings are doing is a really great example of how civic leadership can | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
drive change. So the council has adopted the living wage but is doing | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
more than that. It is saying to local employers to think about the | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
sort of economy we want. It is difficult for small employers but we | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
know from research by the Federation of small businesses that the | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
majority of small businesses already pay the living wage and it is | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
actually larger companies who are sometimes lagging behind and | :46:46. | :46:47. | |
sticking to the national minimum wage. Here in the South East the | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
cost of living is greater than anywhere outside London but the | :46:53. | :46:56. | |
number of people earning less than the living wage here is rising. As | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
well as in Hastings, other local authorities have also taken the lead | :47:02. | :47:08. | |
in paying the living wage, including Gravesham and Crawley Borough | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
councils and Surrey county council. So isn't it time for other employers | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
to follow suit? I'm joined now from Hastings by | :47:16. | :47:18. | |
Jonathan Dolding from the Hastings area Chamber of Commerce. We've got | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
a town here with high levels of deprivation. Isn't the living wage | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
exactly what Hastings needs? We certainly agree with the sentiments | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
that we want a town that is a vibrant economy, growing and strong. | :47:34. | :47:39. | |
We want to see people paid well and that are well educated. But there | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
are some inherent problems with the living wage. What are they? We are | :47:46. | :47:51. | |
still in a relatively fragile economy. We're seeing some growth | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
but most business people locally are cautiously optimistic about the | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
future. We need to see sustained growth before wage levels can rise. | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
We had a really positive business case that we heard from companies | :48:06. | :48:12. | |
who signed up. Productivity increases, absenteeism goes down, | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
staff retention is improved, but it's good for individuals and | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
society. What's not to like? I was chatting two days ago to a local | :48:23. | :48:25. | |
employer that employs close to 100 people. They're under significant | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
pressure from competition in India and as much as they would love to | :48:32. | :48:37. | |
pay all their employees the living wage, they soon began to Ford. They | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
would be out of business. `` they simply can't afford it. Aren't these | :48:44. | :48:49. | |
the arguments we heard about the introduction of the minimum wage in | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
1999? People said the same thing then but nobody would revoke that | :48:55. | :48:57. | |
now. The horror stories didn't come to pass. Know but we need to see, | :48:58. | :49:03. | |
particularly in a town like Hastings, sustained investment. | :49:04. | :49:09. | |
Particularly in infrastructure and skills, so businesses can grow and | :49:10. | :49:15. | |
create wealth and more jobs and then pay people better wages. Thank you | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
for joining us from Hastings. You heard the businessman ` he says it's | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
the wrong time to throw extra overheads at fragile small | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
businesses. 100 jobs could be lost at just one company he's spoken to. | :49:29. | :49:34. | |
It's just not the right time or place, is it? Hastings Council need | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
to be given praise for what they've done. It has helped the lowest paid | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
workers at the council and we've changed tendering contracts, too. I | :49:45. | :49:53. | |
am knowledge there are risks but it is something the council should be | :49:54. | :49:56. | |
campaigning for and asking businesses. It's a two`way | :49:57. | :49:59. | |
conversation. I think there should be praise for what they've done. | :50:00. | :50:05. | |
It's disappointing that other councils haven't taken this on. | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
There was a consultation at Medway that was voted down by some of | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
Mark's colleagues. Are you disappointed, Mark? I think it was | :50:16. | :50:20. | |
the right decision. It is the public sector unions who are driving this | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
and I think the job of the council is to serve its council tax payers | :50:25. | :50:27. | |
by delivering services as cost effectively as possible. It's not to | :50:28. | :50:36. | |
give higher wages. It saves money on benefits. It increases tax revenues. | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
The IPPR says the living wage would benefit the government to the tune | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
of ?2 billion a year. You're an economist ` it's a no`brainer. The | :50:47. | :50:53. | |
Labour Party, dependent on the unions, are promoting this so that | :50:54. | :50:56. | |
council money is not spent on giving the most cost`effective services to | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
the council taxpayer but instead spent on higher wages for the staff | :51:02. | :51:09. | |
and in this case... ?7.45 an hour! They are saying they want to drive | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
up the cost of everything the council buys. It might focus with | :51:14. | :51:20. | |
mind on doing the job better. Let me ask about the government because you | :51:21. | :51:23. | |
are insinuating this is bad value for taxpayers. So you want the | :51:24. | :51:29. | |
government instead ` essentially taxpayers ` to continue to subsidise | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
low`paying employers? I want the taxpayer to get goods and services | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
in most cost`effective way, rather than driving up costs I paying staff | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
more than they need to dig it able to do the job. You want the lowest | :51:42. | :51:48. | |
possible wage? I want the lowest possible council tax for the | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
taxpayer. A lot of these people are paying council tax. In Medway, where | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
it is ?100 cheaper, the last thing we want to do is drive up the costs | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
thanks to this trade union based activity. If Ed Miliband wins the | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
next election, what is going to happen with the living wage? How far | :52:07. | :52:12. | |
as the party prepared to push it? He has orally said he wants to | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
strengthen the minimum wage. Living wage or minimum wage? Minimum wage. | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
This is the elephant in the room, the minimum wage is too low. Yes and | :52:23. | :52:30. | |
it is falling. I think there is some case for increasing the minimum wage | :52:31. | :52:33. | |
but I don't want to see a system where if you're in the public | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
sector, you get paid more. From what we earn to what we spend. | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
?4800 ` that's how much it costs for an annual season ticket from | :52:42. | :52:44. | |
Canterbury to London. Want to travel between Brighton and the capital? | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
You'll have to find ?4200. And those prices will go up again in January. | :52:51. | :52:54. | |
No surprise, then, that the cost of your train ticket is a big issue for | :52:55. | :52:57. | |
thousands of commuters. Stephen Joseph from the Campaign for Better | :52:58. | :53:05. | |
Transport joins me from Westminster. It's great news, then, Stephen. The | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
government is curbing the amount that our rail fares can go up in the | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
next year. You must be thrilled. Unfortunately, that's not what is | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
really happening. The government is putting limits on the maximum train | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
companies can charge at all that means is that the average will still | :53:23. | :53:30. | |
go up by a love inflation, so for the next year and for the | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
foreseeable future, since government hasn't set a date for ending this, | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
we will have continued above`inflation fare rises of at | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
least one present a year. All the government has done is said the | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
companies can only charge another 2% on top of that. `` at least 1%. The | :53:47. | :53:54. | |
government is putting extra taxes on people working by charging higher | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
rail fares. We'll put that Mark reckless in a moment. It is | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
significant, isn't it, because of all the commuter routes into London | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
we've discovered that nine out of ten top rail fare increases were for | :54:08. | :54:10. | |
journeys from stations in Kent or East Sussex it's a massive issue in | :54:11. | :54:18. | |
the South East, isn't it? A huge issue in the South East, | :54:19. | :54:21. | |
particularly in the marginals that are going to decide the next | :54:22. | :54:28. | |
election. In Maidstone, where people are now paying 87% more for an | :54:29. | :54:31. | |
annual season ticket than ten years ago, and that is going to carry on | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
going up by above inflation of at least 1% over the next couple of | :54:37. | :54:46. | |
years, people will be hit. A very quick answer to this, because I want | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
to ask our guests in the studio, but Caroline Lucas, the green Brighton | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
Pavilion MP, says it's time to re`nationalise the railways. Would | :54:56. | :55:00. | |
that make a difference? Not necessarily, depending on what the | :55:01. | :55:03. | |
Treasury do to control this. You could still have a nationalised | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
railway and above inflation fare rises. Thank you very much. | :55:08. | :55:15. | |
Nationalisation ` it's interesting, isn't it? Will Scobey, at the Labour | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
Party conference, members voted in favour. You weren't there but would | :55:21. | :55:26. | |
you have voted in favour? They voted in favour of this being something | :55:27. | :55:32. | |
that the party looks that come. `` looks at. I think we should have all | :55:33. | :55:38. | |
options looked at. When we are discussing all this about the | :55:39. | :55:41. | |
increases, it's all coming back to the cost of living agenda that Ed | :55:42. | :55:46. | |
Miliband has been leading on. The Conservatives talking about fuel | :55:47. | :55:48. | |
prices and rail fares is just responding to what Ed Miliband has | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
said and the most important thing coming out of the conference was the | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
energy prices. That is a way of helping people directly. But we're | :55:57. | :56:02. | |
not talking about that. They've stolen a march on you, Mark, and | :56:03. | :56:07. | |
what is patiently absurd is to talk about a rail fare increase of | :56:08. | :56:13. | |
anywhere between 4.10% and 6.10% and talk about putting money back in | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
people's pockets. I don't think we are responding to Ed Miliband and | :56:19. | :56:21. | |
him driving up the cost of living as energy secretary. 6.10% on top of | :56:22. | :56:28. | |
something that may cost you ?5,000 already and you expect us to believe | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
it is putting money back in our pockets. Under the last | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
government... I'm not talking about the previous government. It's only | :56:38. | :56:47. | |
going up by RPI plus 1%. A flexibility of 2%`5%. I would like | :56:48. | :56:56. | |
to see a cut in fares by 2015. You are entirely in line with the Labour | :56:57. | :57:02. | |
Party. 1% above inflation? We can city and try and split hairs but | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
both parties believe in caps above inflation. I support what Mark said. | :57:07. | :57:12. | |
We need to get to the root of inflation. Labour is leading on this | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
issue and coming up with schemes that will money back in pockets. The | :57:18. | :57:24. | |
Tories are just responding to that, and not very well. I'm not sure we | :57:25. | :57:30. | |
do believe in that. We have already brought it down to 1% above | :57:31. | :57:36. | |
inflation. I would like to freeze or cut fares. Is anyone at the | :57:37. | :57:39. | |
Department for transport listening to you? You've gone some distance | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
but there is a long way still to go. They're listening. I'm going to give | :57:46. | :57:52. | |
up the campaign until they succeed. A round`up now of all the other | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
political events you might have missed this week. | :57:56. | :58:02. | |
Are you a Kent teenager looking for a job? Then this could be for you. | :58:03. | :58:12. | |
Kent PCC and Barnes has begun recruitment for a new youth | :58:13. | :58:14. | |
commission after Paris Brown resigned in April. | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
Almost 60 years after he took his own life after being convicted of | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
gross indecency under anti`homosexuality legislation, Alan | :58:25. | :58:26. | |
Turing could be pardoned. What happened to him was completely wrong | :58:27. | :58:33. | |
and everyone can now see that. Caroline Lucas was in court this | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
week. She faces two charges, including obstructing a highway, | :58:40. | :58:43. | |
during an anti`fracking protest. I want to join others in actively | :58:44. | :58:47. | |
opposing the expectation of yet more fossil fuels. | :58:48. | :58:51. | |
Eric Pickles has been venturing across the states. A pair of | :58:52. | :58:55. | |
students from Kent took a cardboard cutout of him on their American | :58:56. | :59:00. | |
travels. They said they chose him because he is a heavyweight | :59:01. | :59:08. | |
politician and a funny guy. Students' troubles get more bizarre. | :59:09. | :59:11. | |
Let's talk about young people in politics. A Kent teenager as a youth | :59:12. | :59:19. | |
commission. We've had one rather uncomfortable experience with that | :59:20. | :59:22. | |
recruitment process already. Do we need one? Can one person represent | :59:23. | :59:27. | |
what all young people feel? I don't think so. And has done a good job of | :59:28. | :59:43. | |
looking at the issue. `` an. Do you think it is impossible to find | :59:44. | :59:46. | |
someone that doesn't have anything uncomfortable? I think it is | :59:47. | :59:50. | |
difficult and fraught with problems and there are other ways you can | :59:51. | :59:55. | |
engage with young people. I think it was a mistake and I just thought the | :59:56. | :59:58. | |
pressure put on this young lady was terrible. I felt and Barnes should | :59:59. | :00:03. | |
have taken responsible tea. She shouldn't have put in that | :00:04. | :00:06. | |
position. She should have apologised. Interesting hearing | :00:07. | :00:14. | |
David Cameron talking about Alan Turing. We are at the end of | :00:15. | :00:20. | |
anti`hate crime week. The Whitstable local newspaper caused a storm by | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
printing an article with the headline" take heed, all ye | :00:25. | :00:35. | |
homosexual sinners. " Is the South East bigoted? I don't think so. | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
We've got to challenge people to spread love. There was a quote from | :00:40. | :00:47. | |
the Bible. It was about the campaigns by Stonewall. The response | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
was a letter quoting the Bible but headline that the newspaper made up | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
themselves telling homosexual sinners to take heed. I think some | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
religious people feel fairly hard done by themselves but I think we | :01:00. | :01:05. | |
have to tolerate and indeed celebrate everyone in our society | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
and I'm pleased that we're agreed on that across the political spectrum. | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
On cue both very much. `` thank you. That's all we've got time for from | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
the South East this week. BBC South East has a day of special reports | :01:21. | :01:22. | |
tomorrow, examining the performance and public perception of the | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
country's first ever Green`led council, Brighton and Hove. I'll see | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
you in a couple of weeks. Goodbye. which links in with this. Thank you | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
to both of you for being my guests today. | :01:36. | :01:45. | |
Are the Lib Dems like a wonky shopping trolley? Why is Nick Clegg | :01:46. | :01:53. | |
kicking off over free schools? And what about Boris and George's love | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
bombing of China? All questions for The Week Ahead. We are joined now by | :02:00. | :02:06. | |
the former Home Office minister and Liberal Democrat MP Jeremy Browne. | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
Jeremy Browne, let me ask you this key question - ??GAPNEXT who is in | :02:10. | :02:17. | |
the ascendancy in your party, those who would fear to the left, or those | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
who would fear to the centre? The point I was making in the interview | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
that I gave to the times was that I want us to be unambiguously and on | :02:28. | :02:38. | |
up genetically -- and unapologetically a Liberal party. I | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
do not want us to be craving the approval of columnists like Polly | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
Toynbee. I do not want us to be a pale imitation of the Labour Party. | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
I think we should be proud and unambiguously a authentic Liberal | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
party. That is my ambition for the party. If it is, as you put it, | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
fearing to the left, then I think that is a mistake, I think we should | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
be on the liberal centre ground But is it actually veering to the left, | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
your party? I think there is a danger when a party, or any | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
organisation, feels that it is in a difficult position, to look | :03:17. | :03:24. | |
inwards, to look for reassuring familiar policy positions. I do not | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
want us to be the party which looks inwards and speaks to the 9% of | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
people who are minded to support us already. I want us to look outwards | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
and speak to the 91% of the population, for whom I think we have | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
got a good story to tell about the contribution we have made to getting | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
the deficit down, cutting crime keeping interest rates low, and | :03:45. | :03:51. | |
also, distinctive Liberal Democrat policies for example on income tax | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
and pupil premiums. If we look like we are a party which is uneasy and | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
ambivalent about our role in government, people will not give us | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
credit for the successes of the government, and we will not be able | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
to claim the authorship which we should be able to claim for our | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
policies excesses in government I want us to be confident, outward | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
looking, and authentically liberal. If we are that, people real sense | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
that and they will respond positively. Does that not therefore | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
make it rather strange that Nick Craig should choose to distance | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
himself from the coalition's schools policy? Well, I support free | :04:29. | :04:36. | |
schools, I think they are a liberal policy. Education is a fascinating | :04:37. | :04:45. | |
area, so let's explore it a bit We have had two very significant and | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
troubling reports in the last fortnight, one from Alan Milburn, | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
saying that social mobility has stalled in this country, in other | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
words, what your parents do is a reliable guide to how you will get | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
on in life and the other saying that Britain lags behind our | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
competitors, the other industrialised countries, in terms | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
of the educational attainment of 15-year-olds. Both of those are | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
worrying. We have a scandalous situation in this country where two | :05:12. | :05:13. | |
thirds of children from disadvantaged backgrounds are | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
failing to get five Grade A to Grade C. Some get none at all. If we were | :05:21. | :05:27. | |
the world leaders in education, we could have an interesting | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
conversation about how we are able to maintain that position, but we | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
are not. Whether there are good things one less good things which | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
have happened in our schools over the last 30-40 years, we really need | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
to raise our game and stop letting young people down who need a good | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
quality education in order to realise their full potential in | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
life. It sounds like you do not share Mr Clegg's designations? I | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
think there are two big dangers for us as a party. I do not think we | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
should be instinctively statist and I do not think either we should be | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
instinctively in favour of the status quo. I want us to have a | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
restless, radical, energetic, liberal reforming instinct, which is | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
about putting more power and responsible at the end opportunity | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
in the hands of individual people. As I say, we look at the education | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
system, of course there are good teachers and good outcomes in some | :06:23. | :06:25. | |
schools and for some pupils, overall, our performance in this | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
country is not good enough, so the status quo has not been a successful | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
stop I am interested in how we can innovate. -- has not been a success. | :06:36. | :06:48. | |
Are the Tories wooing you? Well I do not know if that is the right | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
word, I have been reported, and I have set myself, that the | :06:54. | :07:00. | |
Conservatives have, if you like made some advances or generous | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
suggestions to me, but I am a liberal, and I am a Liberal | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
Democrat. I have been a member of the Lib Dems since the party was | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
founded, I joined when I was 18 years old. I have campaigned | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
tirelessly for the Liberal Democrats for my entire adult life, so I am | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
not about to go and join another political party. I would turn this | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
on its head, let me put it like this, I think there are quite a few | :07:25. | :07:31. | |
liberals in the other political parties, people like Alan Milburn, | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
who wrote a report on social mobility, people like Nick Bowles in | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
the Conservative Party. Our ambition, as Liberal Democrats, | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
should be to attract liberals from other political parties, and no | :07:43. | :07:52. | |
political party, to the Lib Dems. Just briefly, have you suggested | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
that the Tories do not run a candidate against you in the next | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
election? I have not suggested anything of the sort. The | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
Conservatives have to make their own decisions about which candidates | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
they select, and I will take on whoever is select it from each of | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
the political parties. Thank you for joining us. There is a danger not | :08:15. | :08:27. | |
from Jeremy Browne, but from Mr Clegg, in that, having been part of | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
a coalition which has gone through an enormous squeeze in living | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
standards for three years, it did not look like both was coming, it | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
was being regarded overall as a failure, but now, it may be turning | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
the corner, so why would you then start to disassociate yourself from | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
the coalition's policies? Yes, the danger for Nick Clegg is that he | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
makes the Liberal Democrats looked like visitors in a guesthouse, a | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
guesthouse which is owned by the Conservatives. As you say, they were | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
there for the three difficult years, and just at the moment when the | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
economy seems to be coming right, and we are getting some nice growth, | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
they seek to distance themselves. It is interesting that Jeremy Browne | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
came out with the outrageously disloyal statement that he supported | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
free schools statement. That is a disloyal Liberal Democrat view, but | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
on Thursday, of course, the Liberal Democrat party was in favour of free | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
schools, because in that statement about the Al-Madinah school, David | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
Laws made a passionate defence about what Nick Clegg is now criticising, | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
which is having on qualified teachers. If things are now coming | :09:34. | :09:43. | |
right, the big risk for the Liberal Democrats always was that they would | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
not get the credit anyway. Well if they diss associate themselves like | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
this, they definitely will not get the credit. It depends which voters | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
their opinion poll ratings are dire, he spoke about 9%, and sometimes it | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
is less than that. So, where are they going to get those voters | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
from? They have not got those anti-Iraq war voters. Is it not | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
Mission impossible, getting Labour voters test surely the left of the | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
Lib Dem vote is peeling off towards labour, not away from Labour? I | :10:16. | :10:22. | |
wonder to what extent, and this might be speculation, this might be | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
organised and arranged, that Cameron and Clegg both understand that they | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
have groups of voters that they need to get, so they need to send | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
messages out to different groups, it looks like a bit of a setup to me. | :10:37. | :10:45. | |
Boris in China, along with boy George - let's have a look... Who, | :10:46. | :10:54. | |
according to JK Rowling, was Harry Potter's first girlfriend? That s | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
right, and she is Chinese overseas student, is that not right at | :11:00. | :11:07. | |
Hogwarts? Actually, we are not sure it is right, she is actually from | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
Scotland. It is not only London which has a diverse society. Putting | :11:12. | :11:17. | |
that to one side, we are inviting the Chinese into finance our power | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
stations, to run big banks in the cities, we are giving out more visas | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
to them, are we right to embrace the Dragon? What worries me about the | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
power stations then, it is 30% of investment, and it reminds me a lot | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
of PFI, the idea that you do not want a huge investment on your | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
balance sheet, but if somebody bails out halfway through, we cannot stop | :11:40. | :11:46. | |
with a half finished power station. It is EDF, the French company, which | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
will actually build it, and we will be guaranteeing the debt for them. | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
It is extraordinary that there has been so little adverse comment after | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
George Osborne and Boris's trip to China, and is it now really the UK | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
Government policy, to sell Britain to the Chinese? There was a debate | :12:07. | :12:15. | |
in government about this, as they were getting ready for the trip and | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
there will be at some point in the next six months be a David Cameron | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
trip to China. He has had to wait three years because they were | :12:25. | :12:26. | |
annoyed about him meeting the Dalai llama. There were some people in the | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
Foreign Office who were saying, fine, but tread carefully. George | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
Osborne's view is absolutely not, get in there, I do not care about | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
any of these problems, get stuck in. I think he is storing up five | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
years since the financial crisis, Chinese banks are being given a | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
special, light touch regulatory regime. What could possibly go | :12:53. | :13:03. | |
wrong?! There is lots to see. Energy prices have continued to dominate | :13:04. | :13:10. | |
this week. We have got the EDF deal, whereby we are going to be giving | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
them twice the market rate for their energy. But for the coalition, all | :13:14. | :13:20. | |
eyes are on the GDP figures. The expectation and hope is that the | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
recovery will be stronger than the figures have suggested so far, on | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
which basis it can influence the result of the next general | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
election. The chief economist at the Bank of England was saying on | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
Twitter last week that the Bank of England may now bring forward the | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
assessment when it says, maybe we are going to have to change monetary | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
policy, if unemployment goes below 7%. And we know what that means | :13:47. | :13:56. | |
interest rates. The Bank of England on Twitter! That is it for today. | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two. I will be back with | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
prime Minster 's questions on Wednesday, and of course, we will be | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
back at 11 o'clock on BBC One next Sunday. | :14:09. | :14:15. |