03/11/2013 Sunday Politics South East

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It began as

Plebgate, now it is Plodgate. The evidence of three police officers to

MPs is branded a great work of fiction. They tried to intimidate

the Grangemouth bosses, but in the end it was the union that

capitulated. I will ask Len McCluskey about Unite union's strong

arm tactics at Grangemouth and Falkirk. They preach women should be

sidelined and confined to the private sphere. They argued they

should be covered up. We authority is investigating --

investing thousands of pounds in a GPS tracking system to keep tabs on

its staff. With me as always, the best and the

brightest political panel, Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt

who will be tweeting their humiliating climb-down is what they

got wrong last week in the programme. If this can happen it to

a Cabinet minister, what hope is there for anyone else? Thus the Home

Affairs Select Committee concluded what many already thought about the

treatment of Andrew Mitchell by three self-styled PC plebs. They met

him to clear the air over what did or did not happen when he was

prevented from ramming his bike through the Downing Street gates.

But the officers gave the media and inaccurate account of that meeting.

Two of them are even accused of misleading the Commons committee.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission will now reopen there

enquiry. This is not a story about Andrew Mitchell, it is about the

police. Keith Vaz is often in high dudgeon and this is the highest dad

and I have seen him in for some time. They could be held for

contempt of Parliament and technically they could be sent to

prison. It has blown up into an enormous story. I do not know what

is worse, the police trying to stitch up a Cabinet member and try

to mislead the media or the incompetence they have done it from

day one. That is quite good. I would sleep more soundly at night if I

knew the pleas were good at this. It is the incompetence that shocks me.

And this is just a sideshow. We are still waiting on the main report as

to what exactly happened outside Downing Street gates. But that not

will be good for the police either. The file has gone from the

Metropolitan police to the CPS, so we are limited about what we can

say. This is about the police Federation. They were set up under

statute in 1990 as a deal in which a police would not go on strike. This

is a political campaign to get a Cabinet minister out and the legacy

of this is the police Federation will have to be reformed. We will

keep an eye on it. They were Ed Miliband's union backers, they swung

the Labour leadership for him in 2010. Now the Unite union looks like

his biggest headache. The Sunday Times has seen extracts of the

report into the alleged vote rigging to select a Labour candidate in

Falkirk. There was evidence of coercion and Gregory as well as

deliberate attempt to frustrate the enquiry. We will be speaking to Len

McCluskey, the Unite union's General Secretary, in a moment. First out

the saga began an almost ended up with the loss of 800 jobs at a

petrochemical plant in Grangemouth. Unite were key players in the

Grangemouth dispute and the union headed by Len McCluskey has come

under fire for its intimidator Tariq tactics. In one instance

demonstrators complete with an inflatable rat picketed the home of

a INEOS director. The police were called. It was part of a strategy

the union called leverage. But turning up at people's houses seems

to represent an escalation. At the centre of the rout was Steve in

deals -- Stephen Denes. INEOS launched an investigation into him

as he was suspected of using company time to engineer the selection of

labour's candidate in Falkirk. That candidate was Karie Murphy, a friend

of Len McCluskey. Stevie Deans resigned last week and denies any

wrongdoing, but it capped a dramatic climb-down by Unite union. Len

McCluskey joins me now. Thanks to the Sunday Times we now know what is

in this labour report on the Falkirk vote rigging. Forgery, coercion

trickery, manipulation. You must be ashamed of how Unite union behaved

in Falkirk. The Sunday Times article is lazy journalism. There is nothing

new in the article. This was all dealt with by the Labour Party in

the summer. We rejected those allegations then and we said we had

done nothing wrong and both the Labour Party and the police in

Scotland indicated there had been no wrongdoing. The report itself says

you were trying to thwart the investigation. First you tried to

fix the selection of a candidate to get your woman in and then you

thwarted the investigation into the dirty deeds. The reality is the

Labour Party report was deeply flawed. The Labour Party then

instructed a solicitor, a lawyer, to do an in-depth investigation and

during that investigation they got to the bottom of what had happened

and they decided there was no wrongdoing whatsoever. At the time I

was so confident we had done nothing, I called for an independent

enquiry. They were forced to conclude there was no wrongdoing

because the people who originally complained changed their evidence

and we now know they did so because Unite union officials helped them to

rewrite their retraction and Stevie Deans approved it. That is not true.

We have had 1000 e-mails thrown into the public arena and what is that

all about? Who is leaking this? They showed the Unite union was rewriting

the retractions. This interview would go a lot better if you are

allowed me to finish the question that you asked. These e-mails were

put into the public arena by the PR company from INEOS. Why are they

doing this? The truth of the matter is that all of the investigations

that took place demonstrate there was nothing to answer. This idea

that the Unite union has rewritten and the evidence from the families

has been withdrawn, the families are a part of Stevie deems' family. They

clarified the position. Do you deny that union officials were involved

in the retractions? I deny it completely. This is important.

Independent solicitors to witness statements from the family and they

are the ones that were influencing the Labour Party with the position

is clarified and there is no case to answer. Do you deny Stevie deems saw

their retractions? It is his family. So you do not deny it? It is his

family. This is an ordinary, decent family who were faced with the full

weight of the pleas, a forensic solicitor. Of course they spoke to

Stevie Deans. This whole thing is a cesspit. Does it not need an

independent investigation? This is a trap being laid by Tory Central

office. They are making all the demands. The media, the Daily Mail,

the Sunday Times, the Conservative mouthpiece, they are laying tracks

for Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband should not fall into them. Since

when did it become part of an industrial dispute to send mobs to

the home of company families. This is a legitimate form of protest and

it is a silent protest. We believe if faceless directors are making

decisions that cripple communities, they cannot expect to simply drift

back to their own leafy suburbia and not be countable. This is silent

protest. It is lawful. It may be silent in Grangemouth, but it was

not silent elsewhere. You went with a giant rat, loud-hailers telling

everybody the neighbour was evil. No, we did not. You had

loud-hailers, you even encouraged passing children in Grangemouth to

join in. That is nonsense. Look at the rat. The reality is the

Grangemouth community was going to be decimated, Grangemouth was going

to become a ghost town. I reject totally this idea there were

loud-hailers and children involved. That is a lie perpetrated by the

Daily Mail. But you have used these tactics in other disputes. We have

used the tactics in other disputes, but we have not used loud-hailers at

people's homes. Because the labour laws are so restrictive we have to

look at every available means that we can protest. It is an outrage, an

absolute outrage, that this is happening to British workers in the

21st-century. It could not happen elsewhere. Is not intimidation the

wider hallmark of your union? You were quoted as saying to do whatever

it takes during your attempts to take over the Labour Falkirk

constituency. You were instructing to dig out the nasty stuff on your

opponents. That is not true. Let's see these e-mails? This is a con

trick. Nobody is looking to dig out... This is the words of your

legal services advisor. Unite has tried to instigate a revival of

trade union values within the Labour Party. That is what Ed Miliband

wanted us to do. As soon as we started to be in any way

ineffective, there were screams and howls of derision. When the company

started to investigate Stevie Deans, your friend, your campaign manager,

that he was using company time to moonlight on the job, you called

INEOS and said unless you stop the investigation we will bring

Grangemouth to a standstill. I never said that at all. You brought it to

a standstill. We never brought it to a standstill, the company did. Who

says that I said that we would bring it to a standstill? You have read it

in the newspapers. You should not believe everything. I did not make

that threat to the management. You carried the threat out. You

instigated an overtime ban and a work to rule. And that is what

Grangemouth to a standstill because the company decided to close the

petrochemical site down. Because Stevie Deans was suspended due

introduced industrial action? Our members in Grangemouth felt he was

being unfairly treated. In the end you're grandstanding almost cost

Scotland is most important industrial facility. The day was

saved by your total capitulation. Grandstanding, capitulation and

humiliation are grand phrases. There is nothing about capitulation. Len

McCluskey did not wake up one day and decide to have a dispute with

INEOS. The workers in that factory democratically elect their shop

stewards to represent them and to express to management their concerns

and their views. That is what happened with INEOS. Jack Straw has

condemned your union's handling of Grangemouth as a catastrophe. Have

you considered your position? Jack Straw and others in the Labour

Party, you have to ask them what their agenda is. I am not interested

in what he says. The truth of the matter is we responded to the

requirements and needs of our members. At a mass meeting last

Monday 100% supported their shop stewards and their union. We will

continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with our members when they

are faced with difficult situations. You have lost all the union rights.

You have had to agree to a no strike rule, you have lost pension rights.

We have not lost rights at all, we are still working with the company

to implement its survival plan. The Prime Minister is always attacking

unions and just lately he has taken to praising the automotive

industry. Jaguar Land Rover, Foxhall, BMW at Cowley, they are all

Unite union members were the shop stewards are engaged positively to

implement survival plans and to make a success for the company. That is

what we do, but by the same token we stand shoulder to shoulder with our

members who are in struggle and we will always do that and we will not

be cowed by media attacks on us Is your leadership not proving to be as

disastrous for the members as Arthur Scargill was for the NUM? My

membership is growing. I am accountable to my members, two are

executive, and the one thing they will know is that when they want me

standing shoulder to shoulder with them when they have a problem, I

will be there, despite the disgraceful attacks launched on us

by the media. "A country ready to welcome your

investment which values your friendship and will never exclude

anyone because of their race, religion, colour or creed." The

words of the Prime minister at the World Islamic Economic Forum which

was hosted for the first time in London this week. The PM's warm

words are sure to be welcomed by British Muslims who have endured a

spate of negative headlines. There's been the controversy over the

wearing of the veil, attitudes to women, and the radicalisation of

some young British Muslims. In a moment I'll be talking to the

Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad.

First - here's Giles Dilnot. The call to Friday prayers at the east

London Mosque which has strong links with the Muslim Council of Britain,

one of the more vocal groups amongst British Muslims. Despite the fact it

frequently happens, it is neither helpful nor accurate to describe the

British Muslim community. There are so many different sects,

traditions, cultures and nationalities, it is more accurate

to describe the British Muslim communities, but there is one

question being put to them - are they doing enough internally to

address some challenging issues Are they willing to confront

radicalisation, attitudes to non-muslins, two women, and cases of

sexual exploitation in a meaningful way? A number of them say no, not

nearly enough. This former jihad de has spent ten years telling young

Muslim teenagers how they can reject extremist radicalisation, using

Outward Bound courses and community work, but he and others doing this

work thing -- think some elders are failing the youngsters. This has

been going on for decades, one figures -- thing is said in public

to please people but in private something very different is being

said and the messages are being confused. Some of the young people,

it pushes them further into a space where they are vulnerable for

radical recruiters. For many Muslim youngsters, life is about living 1's

faith within an increasingly secular society, a struggle not helped if

rigid interpretations of the Koran are being preached, say some

sectors. Some practices often don't make sense in 21st-century Britain,

and you are perhaps creating obstacles if you stick to those and

it is perhaps better to let go of those cultural problems, especially

when they need to clear injustices like forced marriage, reticence to

talk about grooming for example or discrimination against women. There

is a long list but I am very clear that in fact the bad Muslim is the

one who sticks to unflinching, narrow dogmatic fundamentalist

perception of religion. One issue often focused on is the wearing of

minicab. Polling suggests 80% of Britons would favour a ban in public

places. -- the niqab. Many people don't seem to recognise the legacy

of the niqab. Many people preach that women should be sidelined and

that they are sexual objects that should be covered up and the

preservation of morality falls on their shoulders. The Muslim Council

of Britain recently got praise for holding a conference on combating

sexual exploitation. In the wake of abuse cases that had involved

predominantly Pakistani men. For one man who has followed the story for

some years, the Muslim Council of Britain needs to do much more. We

need to get along together and if things like attitudes towards the

normal slim girl in stark contrast to the expression of honour and

chastity of the Muslim girl, your sister or daughter, are such that

actions that would be an fought off with a slim girl becomes permissible

with a white girl, then we are all in trouble. To some, attitudes to

women are not limited to sexual interactions at the very structures

of life in Muslim communities and indeed the Muslim Council of Britain

itself. I would like to ask the Muslim Council of Britain what they

are doing about the fact that very few mosques give voices to

are doing about the fact that very the fact that someone women are

experiencing female genital mutilation and forced marriages

what about the women who are getting married and their marriages are not

being registered and they are being left homeless and denied maintenance

rights, what about the fact there are sharia rights that have been

found to be discriminating against women, and the fact there are men in

this country who continue to hold misogynistic views about women, what

are you doing? The occasional press release will not solve this problem

of a deeply patriarchal community. That all of these issues can be

exploited to the point of Islam phobia is not doubted, but many

Muslims feel that unless the communities do tackle this openly, a

big cultural gap will exist between the two.

And the Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq

Murad, joins me now. One visible sign that sets muslins aside is the

veils that cover women's faces. Do you think it makes them impossible

to be part of mainstream society? The niqab is not an obligatory

requirement. But do you accept that those who wear it are cutting

themselves off from mainstream society? Some people do, and whilst

wearing niqab, some of them are working in various walks of life

successfully and it is seen as a faith requirement, but it is a red

herring in the sense that it applies to such a small number of Muslim

girls. For many Muslim preachers, isn't separation precisely the point

of the niqab? Certainly not, if you look at the Muslim women in the

public sphere, we have many very successful women. But not the ones

who are veiled. Not in the public arena as such, but the veil is a

practice which is practised by a very small number. Do you favour

it? I personally think it is not a requirement. But do you think women

should wear the veil? I think it is wrong to force women to wear the

veil. I asked if in your opinion women should wear the veil? It is

important not to force women to wear the veil. Should they of their free

choice where the veil? A lot of individuals do things out of their

free choice which I do not approve of, I don't think it is conducive it

helps their cause, but I do not have the right to take their choice away

from them. I am still unsure if you think it is a good thing or a bad

thing. Are not many Muslim women in this country being forced by Muslim

preachers and often their male relations who want to keep Muslim

women their place? As I said, it is wrong for anyone to force Muslim

women. But how would we ever know in a family if a woman was being

forced? Exactly, we don't know what is going on in people 's homes and

what pressure is being applied. I want you to look at this picture,

very popular on Islamic websites, and it shows the women who is

wearing the niqab having a straight route to heaven, and the other

Muslim woman dressed in western gear condemned to hell. Do you consider

that a proper message for Muslim women? Not at all, I don't. So any

Islamic websites in Britain... The Muslim Council of Britain is an

organisation of five affiliates from across the country and this is not

coming from any of them. As I said, those minority views propagated by

individuals should not be used to represent Muslim community. So that

would not have the support of the Muslim Council of Britain? It would

not have the support. What about the Muslim free school that requires

children as young as 11 to wear a black veil outside of school? Do you

agree with that? I am not sure exactly what the policy is... I have

just told you, do you agree that girls as young as 11 should wear a

black burka outside of school? I don't think it should be imposed on

anybody. But this is the desired dress School of the Muslim females.

I am asking for your view. I said it at the beginning that I do not think

it should be imposed. Would you send your daughter to a school that would

wear a black burka at the age of 11? Would you? No. It seems that some

muslins are determined to segregate young Muslim girls right from the

start to very early from society. It is not their segregation as such, I

would say that there are faith schools, if you look at an Islamic

girls school in Blackburn in a traditional setting, it has come the

top of the league table this year in the secondary school league tables.

But it doesn't make 11-year-olds wear black burkas. Many of those

girls go on to have a successful career. Not wearing black burkas. I

am sure there are examples of women who do have successful careers.

There is a very conservative movement from the continent on

Islam, and the issue supposedly based on Islamic law on their

website. Here is one of their recent judgements. The female is encouraged

to remain within the confines of her home as much as possible, she should

not come out of the home without need and necessity. What do you

think of that? We need to say the whole context of that quote. They

are saying they should stay at home as much as possible, do you agree

with that? I see many Muslim women who are walking about... But this is

what the mosque is recommending women should do. The practice is

quite the contrary. Let me show you another one.

BBC 1 another one. Another Fatwa. Do you

That is what he wants to stop. I disagree with that. We believe we

live in this society and Muslims in any society of the world, and they

have historically lived as minorities in many countries... You

would this associate yourself from that? Why do you allow people like

that to be affiliated to you? The requirement is for any organisation

to be affiliated is that they are bound by the Charity commission's

rules and regulations. We only accept those who are under the law

of this country. This is a matter of taste. Let me move on to a bigger

issue. In 2009 you signed the Istanbul dash-mac the Istanbul

declaration was signed. Do you still support it? No, we never signed it

or supported it. One of your leading lights signed it. In the media

mainstream he defended his position. You have this associated yourself

from it? What is wrong with that? I am not sure about the declaration

because we disassociated ourselves. Before reading it? We did not sign

it. You have not read it? I do not know all the aspects of the

declaration, but at the time in the national newspapers and media there

was a discussion and a debate and it was highlighted that that was not

what was meant by the declaration. When did you decide so is the

yourself from the declaration? From day one. We never signed it. The

East London Mosque which you are personally closely associated with

is the venue for a number of is the venue for a number of

extremist speakers, who espoused extremist positions. In 2009 the

mosque posted a video and presentation by somebody described

by the UN Security Council as an Al-Qaeda leader supporter. Another

speaker described Christians and Jews as Phil. You have had a jihad

is supporter of the Taliban there. Why do you do nothing to stop

extremists like that at this mask with which you are associated with?

We do not have anything to do with any rhetoric that condones or

supported violence. We issue guidelines and the mosque itself is

a registered charity which has its own rules and regulations, but it is

a very large mosques and lots of organisations book and come and told

their gatherings. We rent out the facilities. You were prepared to

speak alongside a man who saluted suicide bombers, and said 9/11 was a

Zionist conspiracy. Why would you share a platform like that? I did

not share a platform like that. Different organisations come and

have conferences here. Why did you agree? I did not agree with that. I

completely reject that. When you add all this up the attitude to women,

the alliance with the most fundamentalist Islamic mosques, the

toleration of intolerant views, a willingness for you to be counted

among them, why should anybody of goodwill, either a Muslim or a

non-Muslim, regard the MCB as a good force? It is an organisation which

embraces different organisations which are affiliated in the Muslim

community. You have taken snippets of certain individual views which

are not the views of our affiliates. It would be unfair to represent our

view based on those which you have highlighted in this programme. The

work that we do is quite clear and is on our website. They are all

associated with you, but we will have to leave it there. You are

watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up: I will be talking to joke

Hello, this is the Sunday Politics in the south`east. Coming up later,

they will breathe new life into rural communities. That is according

to the government, the Campaign For The Protection Of Rural England says

it will destroy the character of the special areas. So who is correct

when it comes to the planning proposals? My guess is our Damian

Green, Conservative MP for Ashford and Home Office Minister in charge

of policing, criminal Justice and victims. I'm also joined by

Labour's Joe Clark `` Paul Clarke. He will be standing as a Labour

candidate again in the next general election. We have had Mondeo man,

Worcester woman and even pebble dash people. They are all target groups

for political parties, the people they need to win over to make it

into Number 10. This week, Ed Miliband said he would be fighting

the Tories on their own ground for the votes of the suburban mindset.

People who have a conservatory, a Facebook page and you are dedicated

to family and work. It could be you. But would it have any impact in

the Southeast? Let's start with you personally. Not even on the top

target list, are you? A political heavyweight, former minister, the

party has not lost faith with you? Not at all. You have to have

resources and target those resources. In 1997, when we first

won deceit, it was not on the target list either. We are out there to the

hearts and minds, whoever they be, pebble dashed... You don't approve

of targeting? I do, absolutely, you have to use resources as best you

can. The only way we can make changes that help hard`pressed

families, pensioners and so on, is actually to be daring the

government. We have to do that and get the majority there. Let's pick

up on that. Damian Green, the Labour Party have rather stolen a march on

the Conservatives on the burning issue of the cost of living. Ed

Miliband has pledged to freeze energy bills. What have you got?

Some people say that George Osborne is considering legislation to

increase the minimum wage. That would be dramatic. Should he do it?

There are two things, on energy prices specifically, we have set in

motion ways people can get the lowest tariff. But it hasn't

happened yet, we are still waiting. We are going to make sure that the

big six, created by the Labour government, become competitive. We

have been lucky and different ways to pay the green levy. What about

helping people that are struggling, would you endorse an increase in the

minimum wage? We have already taken 10 million people at the bottom end

out of tax. The biggest thing we can do for hard`pressed people, at any

bit of the population, is to make sure they can get a job. This

government has created 1.4 million new private`sector jobs at a time

when Labour said austerity would not lead to that. Would you like them to

be paid more? Would you increase the minimum wage? That is a matter for

the Chancellor, I will leave it to him to take economic decisions.

Because we have cut the deficit by a third, because we have created new

private`sector jobs, all over the country, not just in marginal

seats, we're helping people that are hard pressed to struggle through the

recession. With due respect, the cost of living is squeezing people

across the board. People are not finding that to be the case. In

terms of the energy announcements you have made, with respect, Ed

Miliband said at the party conference season what has led to

the agenda on that. Labour are not the only problem for you. They are

hoping to turn Tory voters to Labour, the way Tony Blair did, but

you are going to haemorrhage support to UKIP as well? That is precisely

what Tony Blair did. The fact that Ed Miliband has taken Labour so far

to the left... O, rubbish. Come on. He has not got anything like the

appeal that Tony Blair had. On energy issues, you will find very

clearly, as you well know, one of the reasons you are having this knee

jerk reaction on energy prices... You think prices will not go up

before and after freezes? We'll come back to who is going to vote for who

later in the programme. It's one year since a major change was made

to our police. This month marks the first birthday of the new Police and

Crime Commissioner 's. They took up their posts, pledging to give a

voice to the public and ensure the safety of the community and criminal

justice. They are bold aims, so have they lived up to their promises and

have you noticed any difference? The most radical police reform in

half a century took place nearly a year ago. US style Police and Crime

Commissioner 's were elected to oversee forces around the country

and to give local people a voice about policing in the area.

Conservative candidate Katie born won in Sussex. Independent Kevin

Hurley's promise of zero tolerance to crimes in Surrey got him elected.

And Barnes, another nonpolitical candidate, won in Kent. Do you think

you have delivered an election promise us? Yes, I promised to

freeze council tax, which I did in the first year. I promised to

recruit more special constables, which we are in the process of

doing. Also to put any savings we could find into front`line policing,

which we have done. Election promises delivered so far, 100

uniformed posts, mainly on the street, visible community policing,

delivered. A fleet of mobile police stations in the rural areas,

delivered. Specials, 100 new volunteers, delivered. Fighting

cuts, I am constantly doing that. There was a considerable lack of

public interest in the vote a year ago, with the lowest turnout ever

for an election in the UK. Do you think members of the public would

know who you are? I hope they would. I have visited 71 places since I

became commissioner, just talking to local people in the street. I know

that they do, everywhere I go in Sussex, somebody will come up to me

and say, you are the new Police and Crime Commissioner, I have seen you

on the telly. We decided to put that to the test on the streets of

Brighton and Hove. Do you know who that is? No. No, I don't. No, I

don't. It looks a bit like... It looks like Debra Medon, but it's not

her. Is it the Police Commissioner? Do you know who that is? I certainly

do, my boss. No. No Have you lost her? The leader of the Green party?

It looks like one of those photos they always do, I am happy to help

you but my arms are closed. She looks like the Police Commissioner

or someone like that. The commissioners were keen to tell us

all about their achievements. But both have faced accusations that

they have not lived up to their election pledges. Mrs Barnes came

under fire for the handling of the recruitment of you Commissioner

Paris Brown, forced to resign for her comments on social media.

Critics say that Katie Bourne had a vague plan and adhere to go back on

a promise not to make cuts to the police. One of the key election aims

was the impact on front`line policing. It's hard to see much

difference. There is a lot of e`mails and newsletters going out.

As to their actual practical impact, their ability to change

things, I don't think we have seen much so far. Some of the roll`out of

PCSOs, neighbourhood wardens, the expansion of the police specials,

that was happening anyway. A lot of activity is being reported, meetings

here, consultations there, by PCCs. It's difficult to see how that adds

up to a picture of more accountable policing overall. Those initially

opposed to the role remain credible. Completely vindicated in the doubts

that I and thousands of others had about the need for PCCs, about the

value of putting another layer of your receipt in the police. We look

for a professional police force. We do not look for a Conservative

police force, a Labour police force, even a Green police. We want the

forced to do a job, we want it to be properly held to account by a wide

range of democratically accountable bodies. One year on, have police

commissioners come expensive figureheads with little impact on

the public's confidence in the police?

Let's hear a little bit more from Katie Bourne, the Police and Crime

Commissioner in Sussex. When you were asked if you kept your pledges,

what you have achieved, the first thing you said was, yes, you managed

to freeze council tax, albeit for only one year and that is what he

pledged at the beginning. That is about ?5 on a typical band D

property. The cuts, you do not fight against them, and critics say it has

led to a drop in response times. Does that if either look as

significant any more? I completely refute some of those criticisms. My

pledge to the public was I would freeze council tax for the first

year in office, which I have done. I have actually opened recruitment in

Sussex Police for the first time in over three years. We have recruited

80 new police officers. But that is exacted what I said what I said that

had been a net loss of 220. It's not an accurate, it is just you lost 300

before you recruited 80. Ella Marko we have recruited 80 police

officers, investigation officers as well. We have gone out to recruit

120 special constables. To date, we have had over 700 completed

applications from people across Sussex, which I think is a really

good story for the public. Of course, it is going to take time for

the officers to get a train before you are actually going to feel the

impact on the street. He promised visible and effective neighbourhood

policing. The language has been interesting. Do you think they are

proper police officers, do you think the public think they are? The

public love their PCSOs, they are the heart of the policing teams in

Sussex. Alongside the police constable, he and I pledge to keep

PCSOs because they know how much it means to the public. They devalue

the impact they bring. Not forgetting, we also need police

officers with warranted powers. That is why we have recruited an extra 80

of them. Ann Barnes made the point of how visible it has been, you said

people know who you are wherever you go. Not quite... Somebody will

always say, you are the new Police and Crime Commissioner. Visibility

and accountability are not the same thing, are they? Just because you

are visible, doesn't mean you're doing a good job? They shouldn't be

met stub. There are always going to be people out there that do not know

who you are, of course. Accountability is a totally

different matter. As far as I am concerned, the police are being held

to account far more effectively than they were under the police

authority. I have a monthly performance and accountability

meeting with the Chief Constable, which is webcast online. People can

watch it later. Damian Green, is there any evidence at all that

switching to Police and Crime Commissioner instead of sticking

with the police authorities has improved policing? Yes, the biggest

evidence is that crime is falling. It has since 2010, crime is down in

Kent over the past three years. The PCC is an important part of the

police reform package that led to that. The point people make, of

course we are going to have to do it at a time when there is not as much

taxpayer money around as there used to be. Even in those circumstances,

crime is falling. One of the most significant things that Ann Barnes

has done is show that the police are not recording crime properly. She

found that one in ten crimes was inaccurately recorded, 20% of crimes

wrongly listed as no crime. We can imagine what it is like if you are a

rape victim to be told that no crime has been committed. How can we be

confident with that? That is the PCC doing a job that we created it for,

getting the job done properly. I think Ann Barnes is a good example.

She used to be chairman of the police authority. I can guarantee if

he went around Kent when she was doing that job, nobly would have

heard of her. A lot of people in Kent have now heard of her and a lot

of people therefore care more. It was a bit of a straw poll, but she

was not very recognisable. Do you think she is recognisable? Does it

matter? I always said before the elections, you can spend ?100

million just to raise the profile of the person that maybe you should

complain to. That really is not necessary. Ann Barnes was known as a

chair of the authority to a number of people. Deal with that issue. If

that is the issue, that is what you should deal with. You end up with

the powers in one political person's hand, Labour, Tory,

independent, whatever. Crime was falling under a Labour government

which did not have a police and crime commission. I have seen them

working on a new road safety programme, fine, but I am sure I

could have dealt with Ann on that issue. Would you abolish them? I am

not going to get into the game of... Why not? Let me read you a

quote. Thank you for bringing that in. Ed Balls hinted at abolition.

When we are losing thousands of police officers and police staff,

how have we ended up spending more on police commissioners than the

other authorities? Does it really make sense? Ed Balls is, as ever,

wrong about that. What is your measure of success or failure before

you are prepared to say, actually, we should pull the plug? I think

what you have to do is see whether they are able to be accountable to

the public in a way that the public recognises and is seen to be

delivering services, more than they otherwise would have done if it had

been under the old setup. How on earth do you manage that? Of course

it is difficult. I am not going to say we're going to abolish them, the

simple reason is this. If it is going to cost another ?50 million to

get rid of them and then re`establish it, I'd rather put that

money into the police force. Independent assessments have been

done, if I am right, by the House of Commons home affairs select

committee. It actually shows that 17 out of the 41 are costing more than

the authorities they replaced. This is essentially about the public.

Let's bring it back for a final thought about the police. After

plebgate, there has been a massive drop in confidence. Can the Police

and Crime Commissioner 's counteract that? Their job is to hold the

police to account. Also through the websites which people have access

to, people now feel that they get more information about the police.

When there are rough patches, confidence does drop. But having an

elected figure that is responsible for holding the police to account

gives us a focus we never had before. Over the long`term, it will

increase people's confidence. I think we will need more than the

first year to come to a conclusion. Thank you both very much. Andrew

Motion, best known for his lyrical poetry and use of language was the

poet Laureate. He had some choice words about the government this

week, specifically about their planning reforms, which he says is

leading to vandalism of the countryside. The Campaign To Protect

Rural England, of which he is president, is worried about the next

range of reforms. The government is suggesting making it easier to

change the use of a building. The same would apply in the countryside,

where Barnes about houses could become homes. They say would breathe

life into rural communities, but could prove damaging? You suspect

there is a problem here. What is the problem of enabling a change of

use? A farmer converting an outbuilding into a house? It starts

bringing pressure into their on other areas of the community. There

have already been changes made to relax the permitted use of buildings

without going through planning applications. This is a further

change, a further weakening. Indeed, it actually works against the whole

localism agenda. It's taking powers away from local authorities. What do

you think is going to happen? What I am worried will happen is that you

allow housing developer and on those areas and you then have a pressure

that, coupled with the demands for housing, particularly in the

south`east, you end up with other greenfield sites within those

neighbouring areas that say, you have got housing allowed there

already, what about this? That starts to become a problem for local

authorities. It is one thing for a farmer to convert a barn into a

house for their son or daughter, to carry on working on the land. It's

another thing for a developer to snap up five or more outbuildings on

the same site and create what could turn out to be an inappropriate

housing development? It is important to get some development in the

countryside, otherwise villages just die and become repositories for

people that can afford to live there, no children, no young

people. You do have to allow some development. I'd much rather that

development be small`scale development, using what is

effectively already a Brownfield site that would otherwise become

derelict and unsightly, that actually have new housing estates

plonked on green fields all over the place with some top`down planning

system. I think it is absolutely right, in principle. Do you ignore

those concerns that we could in it... End up with inappropriate

development? You are less likely to have inappropriate development if

you say you cannot develop Brownfield sites. I promised we

would come back to who votes for who. We began by talking about how

to appeal to different groups. The countryside Alliance poll this week

showed only 66% of members would vote Tory now, compared to 90%

before the last election. One of the main reasons they are doing is your

Government's planning policy. Every time you try to change planning

restrictions, everybody that has been an MP will know this, there is

anxiety. The new planning agreement allows sensitive development in the

countryside. As people see that happening, people will be reassured.

That Coastal Alliance are not going to vote Labour? We need to make sure

we have affordable housing, that communities are alive and kicking,

and you do it in a way that... I would not disagree with having

control development, that why take away the restrictions from local

councils that can make the decision? We have to bring a round`up of the

other political events you might have missed this week.

The Government wants councils to relax parking restrictions to

encourage shoppers. But new figures show that motorists in Brighton and

Hove have been hit with a parking fine every five minutes,

contributing to ?11 million parking profit. The former Tory mayor and

Mayoress of Swale are being asked to resign after moving 150 miles per

way `` away. Kent MP Tracy Crouch welcomes the rise of electric cars

but were worried that the quiet engines pose a risk to the elderly

and says some drivers are... Amazed they have not yet killed somebody

that was drunk, stumbling out into the street. And US Congress

contribute to this special relationship between Britain and the

US, unveiling a bust of Winston Churchill. My grandfather would have

been very proud to think that his head would have been in such a great

planet on. `` pantheon. Should you have to live where you are a

counsellor? You have to turn up to the meetings by law, so you have to

be able to get Thank you for coming, great to see

you. Andrew, back to you. Labour 's relationship with Unite and other

issues all to be discussed in the Week Ahead and we're joined now by

the shadow business secretary Chuka Umunna. First I would like to get

your reaction to the interview I did earlier with the General Secretary

of the union Unite - Len McCluskey. Let's look at what he said. This is

a trap being laid by Tory Central office. They are making all of the

demands and the Daily Mail, the Sunday Times, are you telling me

they are not the conservative mouthpiece in the media? They are

laying traps for Ed Miliband and he should not fall into them. Though it

is all a Tory plot. Len McCluskey denies a lot of the allegations put,

but let me be clear in an industrial dispute, the use of aggressive or

intimidatory tactics by either side is totally unacceptable. Do you

think it is wrong for Unite to send its members to the homes of

managers? I don't know what happened in that particular case, but I think

you should keep people 's families out of these things and if you are

doing something that can upset particularly children, that is a bad

thing. I know he denied a number of things you put to him. We now know

some of the content of Labour 's own report into what happened at Falkirk

and they found all sorts of things - forgery, coercion, trickery and even

that their own investigation was being thwarted by Unite. What should

Labour do next? I have not read the report. We are told that the latest

allegations that have been made is something that the police are

looking into so that is not something I think would be

appropriate for me to comment on. We learned Labour Party members in the

Falkirk constituency have complained to the leader of the Scottish party

about a lack of action by the Labour Party on what happened in Falkirk. I

am not part of the Scottish party and that is news to me. But the

police have indicated they are looking at the new information that

has come to light. It is a bit like the 1980s and there was an

electrifying moment when Neil Kinnock took on the militant

tendency in Bournemouth in 1985 Ed Miliband has sort of tried to take

on the Unite union, but it has not worked. Does then not need to be an

electrifying moment for Ed Miliband? Your own paper has praised him for

seeking to address the issues we have in politics and the

disconnection from people. In many respects the situation in Falkirk

categorises the process of further ongoing change where we are trying

to establish a better relationship with individual trade union members.

In parts of my constituency, some of the most deprived parts, we had

people queueing round the block to vote. I do not think the issue is

that people are not political, but they have never felt so far from

party politics as they do now and that is why Ed Miliband announced

this big chains about how we do things in the Labour Party, so we

change structures in the Labour Party that were set up in the 2 th

century. The reform of the way in which we connect and our

relationship with the union puts us in a good position because we have

this relationship between the 3 million working people who ensure

our public services function. At Grangemouth INEOS stood up to

unite. At Grangemouth and Falkirk Labour rolled over to the Unite

union. I do not agree with that I'd just explained the reason. I do not

think it is fair to ask people to give evidence in an enquiry on the

basis of the report will be confidential and then to publish it

after. But if somebody is trying to take over a Labour constituency to

send an MP of their choice to our Parliament, that should not be

secret, that should be public. Ed Miliband acted very decisively. That

constituency party is still in special measures as I understand it.

This idea that somehow the Unite union runs the Labour Party, they do

not. The special measures mean according to Eric Joyce, that an

ally of Stevie Deans is chairing the meeting. I am interested in the Tory

suggestion that they would offer free Tory party membership to union

members. I then moving onto your turf? We do not know exactly all the

facts and the truth of the allegations that have been made On

your point I think it is healthy the Conservatives are looking to recruit

trade union members. A lot of their rhetoric is very negative in respect

of trade unions. If you look at Unison a third of the members vote

Conservative. In Unite union some of their members vote Tory. I think

trade unions have a lot to bring to our country. It is one of the things

many up and down the country will find very frustrating, a lot of the

good work that unions do if it gets tarnished with all the negative

stuff you see... Unite are working in partnership with GM and the

senior management in Ellesmere Port and the government ensured that we

kept that plant open. That gets overlooked by all of this. Do you

not think the bolshie behaviour from unions are motivated not by

strength, but by weakness. Unite know they cannot paralyse the

country in the way their forebears used to be able to do. Their

penetration rates in the private sector is 11%. The union movement is

weaker than it was before I was born. Some of that truck killers and

bad behaviour either death spasms of their movement rather than something

that is motivated by the fact they can't paralyse the country. You have

two increase the membership. But there is an issue about the public

perception of trade unions. It is right they should be a voice of

protest and anger and stand up for their members when it is necessary.

But people join unions for their aspiration. The unions do a lot so

that people can move up in their workplace. That profile needs to

come across as strongly as the protest part. I want to move on to

business. The head of the CBI has said that Labour's pro-enterprise

credentials have suffered a setback. He said that in relation to Ed

Miliband's speech. I was on the radio earlier. If you look at the

things in the speech, some of that was going to be uncomfortable for

some of the countries and they tend to be companies represented by the

CBI, like energy companies, like land developers, a lot of the big

business lose out from is not doing the corporate tax cut. The energy

freeze is going to help over 2. million businesses that have been

hit by high energy bills. The business community has said we had

to bring the public sector finances back into balance. That is why we

decided to switch the money being used to reduce corporation tax and

use that to help a much greater variety of businesses by doing a

business rate cut. It is all pro enterprise. They also seem to be

critical of your new idea of a living wage. They are not critical.

It would not be compulsory, but there would be a tax credit if they

paid it. It is good for business because if people are earning more

than they are more productive. It is good for the employee and good for

us as well because it means we are not having to subsidise people to be

paid to the extent we have with tax credits and benefits. Everybody

benefits from this. We all know after 2009 we need to have bold

change. Does Labour paid a living wage? We have got over 20 of our

councils signed up to doing so and we have made commitments in respect

to Whitehall. Does the Labour Party pay it? I believe so. Would it not

be worth checking? Do you get a living wage? Yes, of course I do. I

understand we paid a living wage. What does it feel like for Tristram

Hunt who has taken over your mantle as Labour's next leader? Is that a

relieved or are you angry? He is one of my best friends and at the end of

the day if we got obsessed with this soap opera stuff we would never get

anything done and we are working together to make sure we have got

the right skills in our workforce. That is all for today. The daily

politics is on all week. I will be here again next weekend at 12:2 pm

after the Remembrance Day service at the Cenotaph. Remember if it is

Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics. Planet Earth - it's unique.

It has life. To understand why, we're going to

build a planet...up there. There were the objects that were

making the Earth. We're now weightless.

That's how our planet started. Your arms are a little bit long

Is that as small as they go? This is like every shopping trip

I've ever been on.