12/03/2017 Sunday Politics South East


12/03/2017

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:33.:00:38.

David Davis tells MPs to leave the Brexit bill untouched,

:00:39.:00:42.

ahead of a week which could see Britain begin the process

:00:43.:00:45.

We'll talk to a Tory rebel and Ukip's Nigel Farage.

:00:46.:00:50.

Phillip Hammond's first budget hit the rocks thanks to a tax rise

:00:51.:00:52.

But how should we tax those who work for themselves?

:00:53.:01:00.

And remember Donald Trump's claim that Barack Obama had ordered

:01:01.:01:03.

We'll talk to the former Tory MP who set the whole story rolling.

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And in the south-east: With more Government money

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for adult social care, we ask where is it coming

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And joining me for all of that, three self-employed journalists

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who definitely don't deserve a tax break.

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It's Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer

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They'll be tweeting throughout the programme with all the carefree

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abandon of Katie Hopkins before a libel trial.

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BBC lawyers have suddenly got nervous!

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So first today, the government is gearing up to trigger Article 50,

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perhaps in the next 48 hours, and start negotiating Britain's

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Much has been written about the prospect of the Commons

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getting a "meaningful vote" on the deal Britain negotiates.

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Brexit Secretary David Davis was on the Andrew Marr programme

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earlier this morning and he was asked what happens

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Well, that is what is called the most favoured nation status deal

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There we go out, as it were, on WTO rules.

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That is why of course we do the contingency planning, to make

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The British people decided on June the 23rd last year

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My job, and the job of the government, is to make

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the terms on which that happens as beneficial as possible.

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There we have it, clearly, either Parliament votes for the deal when

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it is done or it out on World Trade Organisation rules. That's what the

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government means by a meaningful vote.

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I think we get over obsessed about whether there will be a legal right

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for Parliament to have a vote. If there is no deal or a bad deal, I

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think it would be politically impossible for the government to

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reject Parliament's desire for a vote because the atmosphere of

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politics will be completely different by then. I take David

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Davies seriously. Within Whitehall he has acquired a reputation as

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being the most conscientious and details sadly... And well briefed.

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Absolutely and well travelled in terms of European capitals of the

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three Brexit ministers. It is quite telling he said what he did and it

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is quite telling that within cabinet, two weeks ago he was

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floating the idea of no deal at all. Being if not the central estimate

:03:41.:03:43.

than a completely plausible eventuality. It is interesting. I

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would suggest the prospect of no deal is moving up the agenda. It is

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still less likely than more likely to happen. But it's no longer a kind

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of long tail way out there in the distance. Planning for no deal is

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the same as having contents insurance or travel insurance, plan

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for the worse case scenarios are prepared it happens. Even the worst

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case scenario, it's not that bad. Think of the Jeep 20, apart from the

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EU, four members of the G20 economies are successful members of

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the EU. The rest aren't and don't have trade deals but somehow these

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countries are prospering. They are growing at a higher rate. You are

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not frightened? Not remotely. We are obsessed with what we get from the

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EU and the key thing we get from leaving the EU is not the deal but

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the other deals we can finally make with other trading partners. They

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have higher growth than virtually every other EU country apart from

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Germany. It is sensible as a negotiating position for the

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government to say if there is no deal, we will accept there is no

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deal. We're not frightened of no deal. It was clear from what David

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Davies was saying that there will be a vote in parliament at the end of

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the process but there won't be a third option to send the government

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back to try to get a better deal. It is either the deal or we leave

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without a deal. In reality, that third option will be there. We don't

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know yet whether there will be a majority for the deal if they get

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one. What we do know now is that there isn't a majority in the

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Commons for no deal. Labour MPs are absolutely clear that no deal is

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worth then a bad deal. I've heard enough Tory MPs say the same thing.

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But they wouldn't get no deal through. When it comes to this vote,

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if whatever deal is rejected, there will then be, one way or another,

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the third option raised of go back again. But who gets to decide what

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is a bad deal? The British people will have a different idea than the

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two thirds of the Remain supporting MPs in the Commons. In terms of the

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vote, the Commons. Surely, if the Commons, which is what matters here,

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if the Commons were to vote against the deal as negotiated by the

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government, surely that would trigger a general election? If the

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government had recommended the deal, surely the government would then, if

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it still felt strongly about the deal, if the other 27 had said,

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we're not negotiating, extending it, it would in effect become a second

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referendum on the deal. In effect it would be a no-confidence vote in the

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government. You've got to assume that unless something massively

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changes in the opposition before then, the government would feel

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fairly confident about a general election on those terms. Unless the

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deal is hideously bad and obviously basso every vote in the country...

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The prior minister said if it is that bad she would have rather no

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deal. So that eventuality arrives. -- the Prime Minister has said. Not

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a second referendum general election in two years' time. Don't put any

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holidays for! LAUGHTER -- don't look any.

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So the Brexit bill looks likely to clear Parliament this week.

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That depends on the number of Conservative MPs who are prepared

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to vote against their government on two key issues.

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Theresa May could be in negotiations with our European

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partners within days, but there may be some

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wheeler-dealings she has to do with her own MPs, too.

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Cast your mind back to the beginning of month.

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The bill to trigger Article 50 passed comfortably

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But three Conservatives voted for Labour's amendments to ensure

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the rights of EU citizens already in the UK.

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Seven Tory MPs voted to force the government to give Parliament

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a say on the deal struck with the EU before it's finalised.

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But remember those numbers, they're important.

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On the issue of a meaningful vote on a deal, I'm told there might have

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been more rebels had it not been for this assurance from

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I can confirm that the government will bring forward a motion

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on the final agreement to be approved by both Houses

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And we expect, and intend, that this will happen before

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the European Parliament debates and votes on the final agreement.

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When the government was criticised for reeling back

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from when and what it would offer a vote on.

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The bill then moved into the Lords, where peers passed it

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And the second, that Parliament be given a meaningful vote on the terms

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of the deal or indeed a vote in the event of there

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The so-called Brexit bill will return to Commons

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Ministers insist that both amendments would weaken

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the government's negotiating hand and are seeking to overturn them.

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But, as ever, politics is a numbers game.

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Theresa May has a working majority of 17.

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On Brexit, though, it's probably higher.

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At least six Labour MPs generally vote with

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Plus, eight DUP MPs, two from the Ulster Unionist party

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If all Conservatives vote with the government as well,

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Therefore, 26 Conservative rebels are needed for the government to be

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So, are there rough waters ahead for Theresa May?

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What numbers are we looking at, in terms of a potential rebellion?

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I think we're looking at a large number of people who are interested

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This building is a really important building.

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It's symbolic of a huge amount of history.

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And for it not to be involved in this momentous time would,

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But he says a clear verbal statement from the government on a meaningful

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vote on any deal would be enough to get most Tory MPs onside.

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It was already said about David Jones.

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It's slightly unravelled a little bit during

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I think this is an opportunity to really get that clarity

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through so that we can all vote for Article 50 and get

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We've have spoken to several Tory MPs who say they are minded to vote

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One said the situation was sad and depressing.

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The other said that the whips must be worried because they don't

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A minister told me Downing Street was looking again at the possibility

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of offering a vote in the event of no deal being reached.

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But that its position was unlikely to change.

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And, anyway, government sources have told the Sunday Politics they're not

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That those Tory MPs who didn't back either amendment the first time

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round would look silly if they did, this time.

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It would have to be a pretty hefty lot of people changing their minds

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about things that have already been discussed in quite a lot of detail,

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last time it was in the Commons, for things to be reversed this time.

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There's no doubt that a number of Tory MPs are very concerned.

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Labour are pessimistic about the chances of enough Tory

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rebels backing either of the amendments in the Commons.

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The important thing, I think, is to focus on the fact

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that this is the last chance to have a say on this.

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If they're going to vote with us, Monday is the time to do it.

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Assuming the bill does pass the Commons unamended,

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it will go back to the Lord's on Monday night where Labour peers

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have already indicated they won't block it again.

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It means that the Brexit bill would become law and Theresa May

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would be free to trigger Article 50 within days.

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Her own deadline was the end of this month.

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But one minister told me there were advantages to doing it early.

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We're joined now from Nottingham by the Conservative MP Anna Soubry.

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She's previously voted against the government on the question

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of whether Parliament should have a final say over the EU deal.

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Anna Soubry, I think it was clear this morning from David Davies that

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what he means by meaningful vote is not what you mean by a meaningful

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vote. He thinks the choice for Parliament would be to either vote

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for the deal and if Parliament doesn't, we leave on World Trade

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Organisation rules, on a bare-bones structure. In the end, will he

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accept that in the Commons tomorrow? No, because my problem and I don't

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think it is a problem, but my problem, the government's problem is

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that what I want is then to answer this question. What happens in the

:12:15.:12:18.

event of their not being any deal? David Davies made it very clear that

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in the event of there being no deal, Parliament would have no say. It

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means through your elected representatives, the people of this

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country would have no say on what happens if the government doesn't

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get a deal. I think the request that Parliament should have a say on

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Parliamentary sovereignty, is perfectly reasonable. That is what I

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want David to say. If he says that, I won't be rebelling. If he does...

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They have refused to say that. Sorry. If he continues to say what

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he said the BBC this morning, which means that the vote will be either

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to accept the as negotiated or to leave on WTO rules, will you rebel

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on that question but no, no, sorry, if there's a deal, Parliament will

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have a say. So that's fine. And we will see what the deal is and we

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will look at the options two years down the road. When who knows

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what'll happen in our economy and world economy. That is one matter

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which I am content on. The Prime Minister, a woman of her word has

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said that in the event of a deal, Parliament will vote on any deal. I

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don't difficulty. To clarify, I will come onto that. These are important

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matters. I want to clarify, not argue with you. You are content that

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if there is a deal, we will come under no deal in a second, but if

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there is a deal, you are content with the choice of being able to

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vote for that deal or leaving on WTO terms? No, you're speculating as to

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what might happen in two years' time. What the options might be.

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Personally I find it inconceivable that the government will come back

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with a rubbish deal. They will either come back with a good deal,

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which I won't have a problem with or they will come back with no deal. To

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speculate about coming back with a deal, there is a variety of options.

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I understand that that is what the Lord amendments are about. They are

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about a vote at the end of the process. Do forgive me, the Lords

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amendment is not the same that I've voted for in Parliament. What we

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call the Chris Leslie amendment, which was talking about whatever the

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agreement is, whatever happens at the end of the negotiations,

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Parliament will have a vote. Parliament will have a say. The

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Lords amendment is a bit more technical. It is the principle of no

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deal that is agitating us. Let's clarify on this. They are

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complicated matters. What do you want the government to say? What do

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you want David Davis to say tomorrow on what should the Parliamentary

:14:51.:14:54.

process should be if there is no deal? Quite. I want a commitment

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from him that in the event of no deal, it will come into Parliament

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and Parliament will determine what happens next. It could be that in

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the event of no deal, the best thing is for us to jump off the cliff into

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WTO tariff is. I find it unlikely but that might be the reality. There

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might be other alternatives. Most importantly, including saying to the

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government, go back, carry on. The question that everybody has to ask

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is, why won't the government give My fear is what this is about is

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asked deliberately, not the Prime Minister, but others deliberately

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ensuring we have no deal and no deal pretty soon and in that event, we

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jumped off the cliff onto WTO tariffs and nobody in this country

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and the people of this country do not have a say. My constituents did

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not vote for hard Brexit. You do not want the government to

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have the ability if there is no deal to automatically fall back on the

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WTO rules? Quite. It is as simple as that. We are now speculating about

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what will happen in two years. I want to find out what happens

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tomorrow. What will you do if you don't get that assurance? I will

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either abstain, or I will vote to keep this amendment within the Bill.

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I will either vote against my government, which I do not do

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likely, I have never voted against my government until the Chris Leslie

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clause when the Bill was going through, or I will abstain, which

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has pretty much the same effect because it comes into the Commons

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with both amendments so you have positively to vote to take the map.

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Can you give us an idea of how many like-minded conservative colleagues

:16:48.:16:53.

there are. I genuinely do not know. You must talk to each other. I do

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not talk to every member of my party. You know people who are

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like-minded. I do. I am not doing numbers games. I know you want that

:17:07.:17:10.

but I genuinely do not know the figure. I think this is an

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uncomfortable truth. People have to understand what has happened in our

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country, two particular newspapers, creating an atmosphere and setting

:17:23.:17:26.

an agenda and I think many people are rather concerned, some

:17:27.:17:28.

frightened, to put their head over the parapet. There are many millions

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of people who feel totally excluded from this process. Many of them

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voted to remain. And they have lost their voice. We have covered the

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ground I wanted to. We're joined now by the Ukip MEP

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and former leader Nigel Farage. Article 50 triggered, we are leaving

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the EU, the single market and the customs union. What is left you to

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complain about? All of that will happen and hopefully we will get the

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triggered this week which is good news. What worries me a little I'm

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not sure the government recognises how strong their handers. At the

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summit in Brussels, the word in the corridors is that we are prepared to

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give away fishing waters as a bargaining chip and the worry is

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what deal we get. Are we leaving, yes I am pleased about that. You are

:18:22.:18:26.

under relevant voice in the deal because the deal will be voted on in

:18:27.:18:31.

Parliament and you have one MP. You are missing the point, the real vote

:18:32.:18:35.

in parliament is not in London but Strasbourg. This is perhaps the

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biggest obstacle the British Government faces. Not what happens

:18:40.:18:43.

in the Commons that the end of the two years, the European Parliament

:18:44.:18:49.

could veto the deal. What that means is people need to adopt a different

:18:50.:18:53.

approach. We do not need to be lobbying in the corridors of

:18:54.:18:56.

Brussels to get a good deal, we need is a country to be out there talking

:18:57.:19:02.

to the German car workers and Belgian chocolate makers, putting as

:19:03.:19:06.

much pressure as we can on politicians from across Europe to

:19:07.:19:09.

come to a sensible arrangement. It is in their interests more than

:19:10.:19:14.

ours. In what way is the vision of Brexit set out by David Davis any

:19:15.:19:22.

different from your own? I am delighted there are people now

:19:23.:19:25.

adopting the position I argued for many years. Good. But now... Like

:19:26.:19:33.

Douglas Carswell, he said he found David Davis' performers this morning

:19:34.:19:39.

reassuring. It is. And just as when Theresa May was Home Secretary every

:19:40.:19:43.

performance she gave was hugely reassuring. She was seen to be a

:19:44.:19:47.

heroine after her conference speeches and then did not deliver. I

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am concerned that even before we start we are making concessions. You

:19:54.:19:59.

described in the EU's divorce bill demands, 60 billion euros is floated

:20:00.:20:03.

around. You said it is laughable and I understand that. Do you maintain

:20:04.:20:10.

that we will not have to pay a penny to leave? It is nine months since we

:20:11.:20:18.

voted exit and assuming the trigger of Article 50, we would have paid 30

:20:19.:20:23.

billion in since we had a vote. We are still members. But honestly, I

:20:24.:20:27.

do not think there is an appetite for us to pay a massive divorce

:20:28.:20:32.

Bill. There are assets also. Not a penny? There will be some ongoing

:20:33.:20:39.

commitments, but the numbers talked about our 50, ?60 billion, they are

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frankly laughable. I am trying to find out if you are prepared to

:20:46.:20:50.

accept some kind of exit cost, it may be nowhere near 60 billion. We

:20:51.:20:55.

have to do a net agreement, the government briefed about our share

:20:56.:20:58.

of the European Union investment bank. Would you accept a

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transitional arrangement, deal, five, ten billion, as part of the

:21:06.:21:10.

divorce settlement? We are painted net ?30 million every single day at

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the moment, ?10 billion plus every year. That is just our contribution.

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We are going to make a massive saving on this. What do you make of

:21:20.:21:26.

what Anna Soubry said, that if there is no deal, and it is being talked

:21:27.:21:31.

about more. Maybe the government managing expectations. There is an

:21:32.:21:35.

expectation we will have a deal, but if there is no deal, that the

:21:36.:21:40.

government cannot just go to WTO rules, but it has to have a vote in

:21:41.:21:46.

parliament? By the time we get to that there will be a general

:21:47.:21:48.

election coming down the tracks and I suspect that if at the end of the

:21:49.:21:54.

two-year process there is no deal and by the way, no deal is a lot

:21:55.:21:59.

better for the nation than where we currently are, because we freed of

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regulations and able to make our own deals in the world. I think what

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would happen, and if Parliament said it did not back, at the end of the

:22:08.:22:14.

negotiation a general election would happen quickly. According to reports

:22:15.:22:20.

this morning, one of your most senior aides has passed a dossier to

:22:21.:22:26.

police claiming Tories committed electoral fraud in Thanet South, the

:22:27.:22:30.

seat contested in the election. What evidence to you have? I read that in

:22:31.:22:35.

the newspapers as you have. I am not going to comment on it. Will you not

:22:36.:22:39.

aware of the contents of the dossier? I am not aware of the

:22:40.:22:46.

dossier. He was your election strategists. I am dubious as to

:22:47.:22:51.

whether this dossier exists at all. Perhaps the newspapers have got this

:22:52.:22:57.

wrong. Concerns about the downloading of data the took place

:22:58.:23:05.

in that constituency, there are. Allegedly, he has refuted it, was it

:23:06.:23:11.

done by your MP to give information to the Tories, do you have evidence

:23:12.:23:17.

about? We have evidence Mr Carswell downloaded information, we have no

:23:18.:23:24.

evidence what he did with it. It is not just your aide who has been

:23:25.:23:28.

making allegations against the Conservatives in Thanet South and

:23:29.:23:34.

other seats, if the evidence was to be substantial, and if it was to

:23:35.:23:41.

result in another by-election being called an Thanet South had to be

:23:42.:23:45.

fought again, would you be the Ukip candidate? I probably would. You

:23:46.:23:50.

probably would? Yes. Just probably? Just probably. It would be your

:23:51.:23:56.

eighth attempt. Winning seats in parliament under first past the post

:23:57.:23:59.

is not the only way to change politics in Britain and I would like

:24:00.:24:02.

to think I proved that. Let's go back to Anna Soubry. The implication

:24:03.:24:08.

of what we were saying on the panel at the start of the show and what

:24:09.:24:12.

Nigel Farage was saying there would be that if at the end of the process

:24:13.:24:18.

whatever the vote, if the government were to lose it, it would provoke a

:24:19.:24:22.

general election properly. I think that would be right. Let's get real.

:24:23.:24:27.

The government is not going to come to Parliament with anything other

:24:28.:24:30.

than something it believes is a good deal and if it rejected it, would be

:24:31.:24:39.

unlikely, there would be a de facto vote of no confidence and it would

:24:40.:24:42.

be within the fixed term Parliaments act and that be it. The problem is,

:24:43.:24:48.

more likely, because of the story put up about the 50 billion, 60

:24:49.:24:53.

billion and you look at the way things are flagged up that both the

:24:54.:24:57.

Prime Minister and Boris Johnson saying, we should be asking them for

:24:58.:25:01.

money back, I think the big fear and the fear I have is we will be

:25:02.:25:06.

crashing out in six months. You think we could leave as quickly as

:25:07.:25:12.

six months. Explain that. I think they will stoke up the demand from

:25:13.:25:18.

the EU for 50, 60 billion back and my real concern is that within six

:25:19.:25:22.

months, where we're not making much progress, maybe nine months, and

:25:23.:25:27.

people are getting increasingly fed up with the EU because they are told

:25:28.:25:31.

it wants unreasonable demands, and then the crash. I think what is

:25:32.:25:35.

happening is the government is putting in place scaffolding at the

:25:36.:25:39.

bottom of the cliff to break our fall when we come to fall off that

:25:40.:25:45.

cliff and I think many in government are preparing not for a two-year

:25:46.:25:50.

process, but six, to nine months, off the cliff, out we go. That is my

:25:51.:25:55.

fear. That is interesting. I have not heard that express before by

:25:56.:26:00.

someone in your position. I suspect you have made Nigel Farage's date.

:26:01.:26:07.

It is a lovely thought. I would say to Anna Soubry she is out of date

:26:08.:26:13.

with this. 40 years ago there was a good argument for joining the common

:26:14.:26:16.

market because tariffs around the world was so high. That has changed

:26:17.:26:21.

with the World Trade Organisation. We are leaving the EU and rejoining

:26:22.:26:25.

a great big world and it is exciting. She was giving an

:26:26.:26:34.

interesting perspective on what could happen in nine months rather

:26:35.:26:35.

than two years. I thank you both. It was Philip Hammond's first

:26:36.:26:39.

budget on Wednesday - billed as a steady-as-she-goes

:26:40.:26:41.

affair, but turned out to cause uproar after the Chancellor appeared

:26:42.:26:48.

to contradict a Tory manifesto commitment with an increase

:26:49.:26:50.

in national insurance contributions. The aim was to address what some see

:26:51.:26:52.

as an imbalance in the tax system, where employees pay

:26:53.:27:01.

more National Insurance The controversy centres

:27:02.:27:02.

on increasing the so-called class 4 rate for the self-employed who make

:27:03.:27:06.

a profit of more than ?8,060 a year. It will go up in stages

:27:07.:27:09.

from 9% to 11% in 2019. The changes mean that over one

:27:10.:27:15.

and a half million will pay on average ?240 a year

:27:16.:27:19.

more in contributions. Some Conservative MPs were unhappy,

:27:20.:27:24.

with even the Wales Minister saying: "I will apologise to every

:27:25.:27:30.

voter in Wales that read the Conservative manifesto

:27:31.:27:32.

in the 2015 election." The Sun labelled Philip

:27:33.:27:34.

Hammond "spite van man". The Daily Mail called the budget

:27:35.:27:39.

"no laughing matter". By Thursday, Theresa May

:27:40.:27:42.

said the government One of the first things I did

:27:43.:27:45.

as Prime Minister was to commission Matthew Taylor to review the rights

:27:46.:27:51.

and protections that were available to self-employed workers

:27:52.:27:55.

and whether they should be enhanced. People will be able to look

:27:56.:27:58.

at the government paper when we produce it, showing

:27:59.:28:00.

all our changes, and take And, of course, the Chancellor will

:28:01.:28:03.

be speaking, as will his ministers, to MPs, businesspeople and others

:28:04.:28:08.

to listen to the concerns. Well, the man you heard mentioned

:28:09.:28:12.

there, Matthew Taylor, has the job of producing

:28:13.:28:14.

a report into the future Welcome. The Chancellor has decided

:28:15.:28:28.

the self-employed should pay almost the same in National Insurance, not

:28:29.:28:32.

the same but almost, as the employed will stop what is left of your

:28:33.:28:37.

commission? The commission has a broader frame of reference and we

:28:38.:28:40.

are interested in the quality of work in the economy at the heart of

:28:41.:28:47.

what I hope will be proposing is a set of shifts that will improve the

:28:48.:28:52.

quality of that work so we have an economy where all work is fair and

:28:53.:28:56.

decent and all jobs give people scope for development and

:28:57.:28:59.

fulfilment. The issue of taxes a small part. You will cover that? We

:29:00.:29:07.

will, because the tax system and employment regulation system drive

:29:08.:29:10.

particular behaviours in our labour market. You approve I think of the

:29:11.:29:16.

general direction of this policy of raising National Insurance on the

:29:17.:29:21.

self-employed. Taxing them in return perhaps for more state benefits. Why

:29:22.:29:26.

are so many others on the left against it from Tim Farron to John

:29:27.:29:31.

McDonnell? Tax rises are unpopular and it is the role of the opposition

:29:32.:29:35.

parties to make capital from unpopular tax rises. I think as tax

:29:36.:29:39.

rises go this is broadly progressive. There are self-employed

:29:40.:29:43.

people on low incomes and they will be better off. It is economic league

:29:44.:29:48.

rational because the reason for the difference in National Insurance --

:29:49.:29:51.

economically. It was to do with state entitlements. The government

:29:52.:29:56.

is consulting about paid parental leave. A series of governments have

:29:57.:30:02.

not been good about thinking about medium sustainability of the tax

:30:03.:30:07.

base. Self-employment is growing. But it is eroding the tax base. It

:30:08.:30:11.

is important to address those issues. A number of think tanks have

:30:12.:30:18.

said this is a progressive move. Yet, a number of left-wing

:30:19.:30:23.

politicians have been against it. And a number of Tories have said

:30:24.:30:28.

this is a progressive move and not a Tory government move, the balance of

:30:29.:30:32.

you will pay more tax, but you will get more state benefits is not a

:30:33.:30:37.

Tory approach to things. That a Tory approach will be you will pay less

:30:38.:30:41.

tax but entitled to fewer benefits as well.

:30:42.:30:44.

I preferred in and policies to politics -- I prefer policies. When

:30:45.:30:53.

people look at the policy and when they look the fact that there is no

:30:54.:30:57.

real historical basis for that big national insurance differential,

:30:58.:31:00.

they see it is a sensible policy. I don't have to deal with the

:31:01.:31:04.

politics. There has been a huge growth in self-employment from the

:31:05.:31:08.

turn of the millennium. It's been strongest amongst older workers,

:31:09.:31:09.

women part-timers. Do you have any idea, do you have

:31:10.:31:17.

the data in your commission that could tell us how many are taking

:31:18.:31:22.

self-employment because they like the flexibility and they like the

:31:23.:31:26.

tax advantages that come with it, too, or they are being forced into

:31:27.:31:31.

it by employers who don't want the extra costs of employment? Do we

:31:32.:31:35.

know the difference? We do, broadly. Most surveys on self-employment and

:31:36.:31:42.

flexible forms of employment suggest about two thirds to three quarters

:31:43.:31:44.

enjoy it, they like the flexibility, they like the autonomy and about a

:31:45.:31:49.

third to one quarter are less happy. That tends to be because they would

:31:50.:31:53.

like to have a full-time permanent job. It is not necessary that they

:31:54.:31:56.

don't enjoy what they are doing, they would like to do other things.

:31:57.:32:00.

And some of the protections that come with it? Yes. There are some

:32:01.:32:05.

people who are forced into southern employees by high-risk but also some

:32:06.:32:08.

people feel like they can't get a proper job as it were. --

:32:09.:32:13.

self-employment by people who hire them. It is on the narrow matter of

:32:14.:32:18.

tax revenues but if you are employed on ?32,000 the state will take over

:32:19.:32:22.

?6,000 in national insurance contributions, that is quite chunky.

:32:23.:32:27.

If you are self-employed it is ?2300. But the big difference

:32:28.:32:31.

between those figures isn't what the employee is paying, it's the

:32:32.:32:37.

employer's contributions up to almost 14%, and cupped for as much

:32:38.:32:42.

as you are paid. What do you do about employers' contributions for

:32:43.:32:50.

the self employed? -- it is uncapped for as much. What I recommend is

:32:51.:32:54.

that we should probably move from taxing employment to taxing labour.

:32:55.:32:59.

We should probably have a more level playing field so it doesn't really

:33:00.:33:03.

matter... Explained that I thought it was the same thing. If you are a

:33:04.:33:07.

self-employed gardener, you are a different tax regime to a gardener

:33:08.:33:11.

who works for a gardening firm. On the individual side and on the firm

:33:12.:33:19.

side. As we see new business models, so-called gig working, partly with

:33:20.:33:22.

technology, we need a more level playing field saying that we're

:33:23.:33:28.

taxing people's work, not the form in which they deliver that. That is

:33:29.:33:32.

part of the reason we have seen the growth of particular business

:33:33.:33:34.

models. They are innovative and creative and partly driven by the

:33:35.:33:39.

fact that if you can describe yourself as self-employed there are

:33:40.:33:44.

tax advantages. Coming out in June? Will you come back and talk to us?

:33:45.:33:46.

Yes. We say goodbye to viewers

:33:47.:33:47.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,

:33:48.:33:52.

we'll be talking to the former Tory MP who was the root

:33:53.:33:57.

of Donald Trump's allegation We will be putting that and other

:33:58.:34:11.

questions that our guests today, Daniel Hannan, MEP

:34:12.:34:32.

for the Conservatives, Lord Steve Bassam,

:34:33.:34:34.

Labour's Chief Whip in the Lords, and to discuss this

:34:35.:34:35.

week's budget we are also joined by Paul Carter, Conservative leader

:34:36.:34:39.

of Kent County Council. If so, are you happy to pay your

:34:40.:34:41.

fair share when it comes to The Chancellor says your

:34:42.:34:51.

contributions will go up from next year but Philip Hammond

:34:52.:34:53.

has had to defend his plans from critics on his own

:34:54.:34:57.

side of the house. Daniel Hannan, do you support

:34:58.:34:59.

the increase in national insurance contributions suggested

:35:00.:35:01.

for the millions of self-employed? The Government has already said this

:35:02.:35:02.

will be voted on later and I think The mood music is they are

:35:03.:35:06.

looking at this again and they have been

:35:07.:35:09.

struck by the extent of the opposition and as

:35:10.:35:13.

We want people to be self-employed and

:35:14.:35:16.

I will take this opportunity to say to everyone

:35:17.:35:20.

watching that has started a

:35:21.:35:21.

Politicians are very good at saying thanks

:35:22.:35:24.

to doctors and nurses and

:35:25.:35:25.

teachers, and quite right, but we should also find time to say

:35:26.:35:28.

thank you to the people who are generating

:35:29.:35:31.

the revenue that pay for the doctors and the teachers and the soldiers

:35:32.:35:34.

There is an issue, there is a disparity between self-employed

:35:35.:35:38.

and employed people, both NICs can now pay

:35:39.:35:40.

loophole that some companies are effectively reclassifying their

:35:41.:35:47.

workers as self-employed in order to escape.

:35:48.:35:49.

So that is something that should be addressed and this is not

:35:50.:35:52.

something Phillip Hammond adjusted for the fun

:35:53.:35:54.

probably ways of doing it that are more commensurate

:35:55.:35:59.

You mention the opposition to this and I

:36:00.:36:08.

will put to Steve Bassam, once again, it looks like the effect of

:36:09.:36:11.

opposition here does not, from the Labour

:36:12.:36:13.

front bench but comes from

:36:14.:36:14.

I think Labour members in parliament, both

:36:15.:36:19.

Lords and Commons, have made a lot of noise about this, John McDonnell

:36:20.:36:22.

has been very clear and he was quite quick

:36:23.:36:24.

straight out of the blocks on

:36:25.:36:26.

But that has been Kent MPs like Thomas Tugendhat and Craig

:36:27.:36:30.

Mackinlay who have a really, as Conservative backbenchers, who have

:36:31.:36:33.

That's because of the arithmetic in the

:36:34.:36:35.

Daniel would say it is quite close and there are more than

:36:36.:36:39.

enough Tory MPs who, like us, think this is a rather silly idea.

:36:40.:36:43.

I agree there are some longer term anomalies

:36:44.:36:45.

but I do not think this is the way to deal with it.

:36:46.:36:48.

This is one of the quickest U-turns I've seen in

:36:49.:36:50.

You are a businessman as well as a Conservative politician.

:36:51.:37:03.

Increases in those national insurance increases, what

:37:04.:37:05.

do you see the messages to entrepreneurs?

:37:06.:37:07.

Well, as somebody who has worked in the construction

:37:08.:37:09.

industry all my life and been dependent

:37:10.:37:11.

plumbers, electricians, all strivers, all running their own

:37:12.:37:14.

businesses, I think it is regrettable they have indicated that

:37:15.:37:16.

money will come from increasing the national

:37:17.:37:18.

insurance contributions on

:37:19.:37:19.

those strivers, those of self-employed people.

:37:20.:37:20.

But they more than make up now, or will do in the

:37:21.:37:25.

future, with the full pension, will more than make up for an extra

:37:26.:37:28.

contributions they pay in national insurance.

:37:29.:37:30.

They will still be ahead of the curve.

:37:31.:37:31.

I think it is the message it sends out to people

:37:32.:37:34.

wanting to set up their own businesses.

:37:35.:37:36.

The one-man bands may grow into bigger businesses.

:37:37.:37:37.

What is wrong with the message that you will

:37:38.:37:40.

It is a big, brave, bold step and a difficult world out there,

:37:41.:37:44.

running your own small business and I think

:37:45.:37:46.

we need to encourage and stimulate as many people to be self-reliant,

:37:47.:37:49.

strivers, developing and building their own business and they should

:37:50.:37:51.

Let's go back to Daniel Hannan on, you made

:37:52.:37:55.

the point that Theresa May says the proposed tax rises will not be

:37:56.:37:58.

voted on until the autumn, and crucially,

:37:59.:38:00.

after proposals for extra rights for those

:38:01.:38:02.

self-employed workers are

:38:03.:38:03.

How far should those extra rights go in order for these

:38:04.:38:06.

additional contributions to be deemed as fair?

:38:07.:38:08.

Would you say for holiday pay, sick pay, maternity and

:38:09.:38:11.

I would actually equalise in the opposite direction

:38:12.:38:13.

and bring down national insurance for everybody else, rather than

:38:14.:38:16.

bringing up national insurance for the self-employed.

:38:17.:38:19.

But you could say the system is working.

:38:20.:38:23.

Craig Mackinlay and Thomas Tugendhat made

:38:24.:38:27.

I think this was generally an excellent budget.

:38:28.:38:33.

It had one glitch in it, that is being addressed

:38:34.:38:35.

precisely because Parliament is doing its job and representing the

:38:36.:38:38.

people who elected them and I think we can say the system is doing

:38:39.:38:41.

OK, so is the overall lesson here for

:38:42.:38:46.

politicians, and any of you can answer this one, let's go to Steve

:38:47.:38:49.

The IFS, I quote the IFS, "Stop making silly manifesto

:38:50.:38:52.

Well, I think they're right to draw attention to that.

:38:53.:38:57.

I think this budget was a very quiet budget and

:38:58.:38:59.

for me it was more what it didn't do.

:39:00.:39:01.

It did not put more money to the health service.

:39:02.:39:04.

It made some moves towards social care, it has not

:39:05.:39:08.

addressed long-term inequalities and pay and all those sorts

:39:09.:39:10.

of issues, and I do think that Philip Hammond

:39:11.:39:13.

is trying to keep a lid on a lot of the problems the Tory Government

:39:14.:39:17.

have got longer term, going towards Brexit.

:39:18.:39:18.

He is paying off debt, stimulating the economy.

:39:19.:39:22.

He's nowhere near paying off the debt.

:39:23.:39:24.

Given necessarily limited resources I think he has got

:39:25.:39:30.

So you're apart was saying, or many members of

:39:31.:39:35.

your party, you included, probably, was saying during Brexit referendum

:39:36.:39:37.

run up there was going to be more money available because we were

:39:38.:39:41.

I do not see any of that going towards public

:39:42.:39:44.

Paul over there have been working incredibly hard to get his

:39:45.:39:48.

There is extra money in education and skills.

:39:49.:39:50.

Steve Bassam I'm going to take you where you want to

:39:51.:39:54.

do, we're going to move from the tax to be

:39:55.:39:57.

spend, because that is, as

:39:58.:39:58.

Steve Bassam suggested, an extra ?2 billion on its way

:39:59.:40:01.

to local councils to pay for the care of

:40:02.:40:03.

Paul Carter, immediately after the budget

:40:04.:40:07.

you expressed some concern about whether this ?2 billion

:40:08.:40:09.

Turns out Kent is getting the biggest portion

:40:10.:40:16.

here, an extra ?52 million over the next three years.

:40:17.:40:18.

First of all, we are delighted we have got the additional

:40:19.:40:22.

Everybody knows social care providers have been under enormous

:40:23.:40:26.

pressure in the last three years as the ageing population grows,

:40:27.:40:31.

The distribution method is through the

:40:32.:40:36.

better care fund, it is not ideal or perfect, central Government is

:40:37.:40:41.

having a fundamental review of how local

:40:42.:40:43.

Government is funded which

:40:44.:40:45.

I think the counties will do better from that

:40:46.:40:51.

establish what every local authority needs as a baseline to deliver core

:40:52.:41:03.

Let's look and little homes here because your own head of

:41:04.:41:07.

financial strategy David Shipton says, This

:41:08.:41:08.

week's announcement dwarfs what

:41:09.:41:10.

we previously have for social care and I see you for your own figures

:41:11.:41:13.

you already had earmarked ?3 million extra to spend this year and now it

:41:14.:41:16.

Well, they are large sums of money and I think we

:41:17.:41:21.

will get some direction from central Government

:41:22.:41:23.

as to where they want to

:41:24.:41:24.

The comments he made about no more money for the health

:41:25.:41:28.

service, I think it was Simon Stephens

:41:29.:41:30.

who indicated if there is

:41:31.:41:31.

more money around put it in social care for the inextricable links

:41:32.:41:45.

between social care provision and health

:41:46.:41:46.

community care and, most importantly, getting patients out of

:41:47.:41:49.

hospital in a timely way and the help and support social care can

:41:50.:41:53.

We are doing that in Kent already through enablement services

:41:54.:41:56.

for all patients to get them out of hospital and back

:41:57.:41:59.

in their own home as a universal service, not the

:42:00.:42:01.

The better care fund, which you mentioned, it's

:42:02.:42:07.

interesting and the reason I mention it is because I want to know if you

:42:08.:42:11.

know, and we'll ask other guests, too, where the money

:42:12.:42:13.

The better care fund which up until now has been an extra source

:42:14.:42:20.

of revenue for councils to spend on adult social care turned out

:42:21.:42:23.

to be pulling existing money from the NHS

:42:24.:42:25.

and from you, the local authorities, you are clear you know where this

:42:26.:42:28.

There was better care fund mark one and better

:42:29.:42:31.

Slightly losing the will to live, but yeah.

:42:32.:42:34.

This additional money will be accountable

:42:35.:42:38.

from Kent County Council with its responsibilities to

:42:39.:42:40.

It is new money and the conditions as to how that is spent I imagine

:42:41.:42:47.

we'll be coming to us pretty shortly and it

:42:48.:42:49.

will follow the pattern, I

:42:50.:42:50.

We need to help and support care markets

:42:51.:42:55.

to grow and sustain the

:42:56.:42:58.

provisions so we have got more enablement beds in residential care

:42:59.:43:01.

homes, we support domiciliary care to a greater extent.

:43:02.:43:05.

Let's not make exactly the same points again

:43:06.:43:11.

but let's bring our other guests in about the future.

:43:12.:43:13.

Daniel Hannan, this is only a three-year

:43:14.:43:15.

funding boost and in Kent alone by 2026 the number of people over 65

:43:16.:43:18.

is expected to increase by another 43%.

:43:19.:43:20.

It is not going to address the longer term issues, is it?

:43:21.:43:23.

In an necessarily limited budget we have

:43:24.:43:25.

prioritised it for exactly the reason you give.

:43:26.:43:28.

In a sense it is a very good problem to have, we're all

:43:29.:43:31.

living longer, we are living longer, healthier lives, but this does

:43:32.:43:35.

necessitate more care at the end of our lives

:43:36.:43:38.

and I think the number of

:43:39.:43:42.

over 75s will double in the next ten years,

:43:43.:43:44.

which is a very significant shift and a very welcome shift, as a

:43:45.:43:47.

But my question was about the future.

:43:48.:43:53.

We had over the past 20 years, and now we know another green

:43:54.:43:56.

paper, the total comes to 12, white papers, Green papers, major

:43:57.:43:58.

consultations on looking after our elderly people and we have not

:43:59.:44:03.

mentiond the disabled adults as well.

:44:04.:44:10.

Is any Government ever going to grasp the nettle and do something

:44:11.:44:13.

This is a huge sum of money which is front-loaded

:44:14.:44:16.

so half of it is being spent immediately.

:44:17.:44:18.

It is a huge sum of money which is going to...

:44:19.:44:28.

We just heard from Paul the difference

:44:29.:44:29.

between what was previously been budgeted and what is now available.

:44:30.:44:32.

Everyone in the industry is calling it a sticking plaster.

:44:33.:44:34.

That is exactly the phrase I was looking

:44:35.:44:36.

Your own MPs think it is a sticking plaster.

:44:37.:44:44.

They see it as a short-term solution and it

:44:45.:44:47.

does not address the wider issues of health care.

:44:48.:44:49.

We are losing doctors, nurses, we will have acute pressures

:44:50.:44:53.

on our health service because of the migration

:44:54.:44:57.

back to Europe for a lot of skilled labour.

:44:58.:44:59.

Steve Bassam, why didn't Labour address this when the

:45:00.:45:07.

Clearly, we do want to listen to what people have to say, as any

:45:08.:45:15.

sensible Government does, but we pumped

:45:16.:45:17.

a lot more resources into the

:45:18.:45:18.

health service and I think we increase the overall budget by 50%

:45:19.:45:21.

And it has continued to increase every year since.

:45:22.:45:25.

I'm sorry, I don't think the health service feels it has and that is

:45:26.:45:29.

Hang on, it doesn't feel as though it has?

:45:30.:45:32.

I'm sorry, that trumps what is actually

:45:33.:45:34.

Look, the stats are pretty clear on this...

:45:35.:45:39.

The money is not adequate to cover what is actually being...

:45:40.:45:43.

But you accept that has increased

:45:44.:45:44.

I do not think it has increased enough over the year

:45:45.:45:48.

because the predictable pressures of demographics...

:45:49.:45:49.

This is what I mean by you always say it is not enough.

:45:50.:45:52.

I am going to go back to Paul Carter for his last thought on this.

:45:53.:45:56.

You told Caring Kent magazine recently

:45:57.:45:57.

we need new ways of raising additional money

:45:58.:45:59.

The Prime Minister has made it quite clear we need to

:46:00.:46:05.

find new sustainable ways of funding social care.

:46:06.:46:07.

Everybody talks about putting more money into social care, 70% of

:46:08.:46:12.

individuals that need expensive social care interventions in this

:46:13.:46:14.

county have to pay for it themselves.

:46:15.:46:17.

So let's not skirt the issue, what are those new ways?

:46:18.:46:20.

We have got to look at the Dilnot Review,

:46:21.:46:23.

we've got to look at the

:46:24.:46:26.

opportunity of bringing private insurance industry or a state funded

:46:27.:46:32.

scheme, so the unfortunate 30% that need these

:46:33.:46:34.

expensive interventions do not complete the -- deplete all their

:46:35.:46:36.

hard earned wealth they have accumulated over a lifetime but we

:46:37.:46:42.

have got to find, as good Conservatives, a system that helps

:46:43.:46:51.

and supports everyone in the social care sphere

:46:52.:46:53.

30, 40, ?50,000 worth of cost interventions...

:46:54.:46:56.

Sorry, to be very specific, you have also mentioned

:46:57.:46:58.

Is that where you would be to for more revenue?

:46:59.:47:05.

Well, over the last two or three years we have seen the

:47:06.:47:08.

foreign aid budget grow phenomenally and seen budgets to local

:47:09.:47:10.

governments reduced, National Audit Office

:47:11.:47:11.

I am a great supporter of the foreign

:47:12.:47:17.

aid budgets but the growth has been absolutely phenomenal and we have

:47:18.:47:21.

reduced the budget to local Government to help support the most

:47:22.:47:24.

elderly and vulnerable in our communities.

:47:25.:47:26.

Thank you very much indeed for joining us.

:47:27.:47:30.

Paul Carter, leader Kent County Council.

:47:31.:47:31.

Now, who doesn't like a cheeky gin and tonic once in a while?

:47:32.:47:34.

It turned out that gin distilling business is

:47:35.:47:36.

booming here in the south-east, with exports to Europe at

:47:37.:47:39.

But is Brexit going to put that all on ice?

:47:40.:47:42.

This gin made in Brighton is destined for Europe.

:47:43.:47:54.

Incredible citrus and the Juniper coming

:47:55.:47:57.

straight off it and served with a little wedge of orange.

:47:58.:48:02.

Here we have a fantastic Brighton gin, definitely

:48:03.:48:05.

Cathy Cayton, co-founder of Brighton Gin,

:48:06.:48:11.

says that is an unquenchable thirst for the spirit around the world.

:48:12.:48:14.

Three out of every four bottles of gin

:48:15.:48:17.

Britain and the key driver is craft gins made

:48:18.:48:25.

The gin trend has read to recognise and overseas sales and if

:48:26.:48:32.

its popularity continues exports could reach ?0.5 billion

:48:33.:48:34.

It is all happening just as Britain is about to leave the EU.

:48:35.:48:41.

And with 55% of all British gin exported to the European Union

:48:42.:48:48.

producers are concerned about how Brexit will affect EU trade.

:48:49.:48:51.

It is a real British success story and we

:48:52.:48:55.

are really looking to export this year, it is where we would like to

:48:56.:48:59.

get out and shout about our amazing gin and I think there is the

:49:00.:49:03.

uncertainty around what might happen and it is something that could

:49:04.:49:07.

potentially put the handbrake on stuff for us and we really do not

:49:08.:49:11.

A rise in duty of 43p per litre in this week's

:49:12.:49:21.

budget was no tonic for the industry either at the time when leaders say

:49:22.:49:24.

they need more Government commitment ahead had Brexit.

:49:25.:49:27.

Including giving a British gin protected status to stop

:49:28.:49:28.

We really could do with some support.

:49:29.:49:34.

It is not just about low taxation, which we do not currently have, it

:49:35.:49:39.

is about creating a better environment.

:49:40.:49:44.

We have done very well with the British products

:49:45.:49:46.

abroad and that is why we think we need better protection

:49:47.:49:49.

for British gin as it becomes more of an

:49:50.:49:51.

We think there will be a chance to do that as part of the Brexit

:49:52.:49:56.

process when the great repeal bill goes through.

:49:57.:50:03.

But it has to be done quickly or we will lose the advantage.

:50:04.:50:06.

While gin is on the ascent, the region's Kentish ales

:50:07.:50:08.

and sparkling wines are established export

:50:09.:50:10.

products and as the gateway to Europe, the south-east is uniquely

:50:11.:50:13.

Selling goods abroad is crucial to the economy of the south-east.

:50:14.:50:16.

Last year the export market was worth ?40

:50:17.:50:18.

billion, more than any other part of the UK.

:50:19.:50:29.

But if there is one thing that is not good

:50:30.:50:31.

And future trade negotiations will take years.

:50:32.:50:36.

UK Trade Policy Observatory, based at Sussex

:50:37.:50:38.

University, is advising parliament about post-Brexit trade deals.

:50:39.:50:40.

They say exporters could be in for a shock.

:50:41.:50:42.

I think in the very short-term they probably will not

:50:43.:50:44.

It will depend, in part, on whether we have the notorious hard Brexit

:50:45.:50:53.

whether we have a deal in which things are

:50:54.:50:58.

clearly negotiated and a

:50:59.:50:59.

transitional arrangements in which new customs procedures

:51:00.:51:00.

If there is it literally a hard Brexit where the

:51:01.:51:05.

borders turn into international borders overnights, people are going

:51:06.:51:08.

to be an extreme difficulty on that day.

:51:09.:51:14.

The tipple once termed mother's ruin, may be the making of these

:51:15.:51:19.

But can the Government ensure growth and

:51:20.:51:24.

enterprise is not stifled by ponderous trade negotiations brought

:51:25.:51:26.

On Daniel Hannan, Brighton gin want to tap into the lucrative European

:51:27.:51:42.

markets. They feel uncertainty could markets. They feel uncertainty could

:51:43.:51:50.

put a handbrake on growth plans. The timing is not great. They should not

:51:51.:51:56.

feel uncertainty as I have not heard a single European politicians

:51:57.:51:58.

suggest they are planning tariffs or trade barriers after Brexit. Unlike

:51:59.:52:04.

in every other trade negotiation we are starting from a position of zero

:52:05.:52:09.

tariffs and regulations. The inertia bias is working the other way. Where

:52:10.:52:14.

they will have opportunities is not just in Europe but it is in South

:52:15.:52:21.

America and Asia and the Middle East and Africa, all sorts of places

:52:22.:52:26.

where it is a great brand, and some places there are already tariffs and

:52:27.:52:30.

now we have control of our own trade policy we will have the opportunity

:52:31.:52:35.

to reach new markets and those will be the growing markets. There will

:52:36.:52:40.

be consequences for those already exporting if we come out of the

:52:41.:52:44.

customs union, as is widely predicted, that will put burdens on

:52:45.:52:48.

small companies dealing with administrative costs, developed

:52:49.:52:54.

expertise in handling VAT declarations and customs duty

:52:55.:52:55.

differently, and that will have an differently, and that will have an

:52:56.:53:00.

impact on the supply chain. They already do that when they sailed to

:53:01.:53:03.

Australia. But those currently selling to the EU -- selling to

:53:04.:53:11.

Australia. If there are companies just selling to the EU at the more

:53:12.:53:16.

they will find how easy it is. We're not in the 19th century when you

:53:17.:53:20.

have a great customs checks, all of the custom stuff is done online in

:53:21.:53:26.

advance and it is a very simple process. Steve can you see the

:53:27.:53:35.

opportunities? I worry as there was a recent Lords report and Daniel is

:53:36.:53:46.

Brexit idealist... Saw plenty of people. Daniel will only see the

:53:47.:53:53.

upside. The trade industry is right to worry and we want to ensure we

:53:54.:54:03.

have a successful export market for things like Brighton gin. What was

:54:04.:54:09.

has been going on with the question back to Daniel Hannan, a lot of

:54:10.:54:13.

small employers will of you national and the staff, what should they tell

:54:14.:54:19.

them about the state is? Have not heard a single person say they will

:54:20.:54:22.

not maintain their rights for people not maintain their rights for people

:54:23.:54:28.

already in the UK. During the referendum campaign we always made

:54:29.:54:31.

clear that any restrictions on immigration would only apply to

:54:32.:54:36.

future rivals. Even Ukip said the same. But that has not been given

:54:37.:54:42.

no. I do not see how we can say get any more clearly. They do not need

:54:43.:54:47.

to worry. Every day of the week at some stage hard questions are asked

:54:48.:54:52.

of ministers and the Lords and they cannot give the clarity you'd

:54:53.:55:00.

trumpet and that is deeply worrying to the harbour many million you

:55:01.:55:02.

national in our country and they feel very nervous. We're not Burma,

:55:03.:55:10.

for heaven 's sake. I would love to still give people the opportunity to

:55:11.:55:13.

see some of the other news you may have missed here it is, 60 seconds.

:55:14.:55:20.

Conservative MPs have expressed anger after Mid Sussex district

:55:21.:55:22.

councils order to build thousands of extra homes on rural land.

:55:23.:55:31.

It has raised concerns that Ashdown Forest,

:55:32.:55:33.

known as the home of Winnie the Pooh,

:55:34.:55:36.

could bear the brunt of the

:55:37.:55:39.

new development and the council was told by the planning Inspectorate to

:55:40.:55:42.

build almost 4000 more houses in the next 15 years.

:55:43.:55:44.

Everybody accepts the need for more houses but we do not have the

:55:45.:55:49.

infrastructure or the countryside to sustain a level of housing which he

:55:50.:55:52.

It has been revealed the Dartford Crossing,

:55:53.:55:54.

one of the busiest sections of road in the country, was

:55:55.:55:57.

classed by the Government as a rural road until two years ago.

:55:58.:56:02.

Air pollution in the area regularly exceeds the safe limit, and the area

:56:03.:56:05.

error means that these levels of pollution have been routinely

:56:06.:56:08.

And the controversial scheme to sell off parts of the

:56:09.:56:11.

South Downs will not go ahead after residents overwhelmingly voted

:56:12.:56:13.

Eastbourne Borough Council planned to put 3000 acre is

:56:14.:56:16.

up for sale to cope with budget cuts.

:56:17.:56:28.

Also this week Steve Bassam you have been in the news with his story

:56:29.:56:34.

about bringing a Serbian refugees to live in your home. What has the

:56:35.:56:41.

response been -- -- Sirion. It is nearly all been positive. I have

:56:42.:56:48.

learned a lot more about Syrian culture and I understand their

:56:49.:56:53.

problems better. Very nice to have you with us today. That is all we

:56:54.:57:00.

have time for today. Thank you to our guests. Natalie is back next

:57:01.:57:01.

week with Now the government plans for new

:57:02.:57:04.

grammar schools. The Education Secretary

:57:05.:57:19.

Justine Greening was speaking to a conference

:57:20.:57:20.

of headteachers on Friday. They're normally a pretty polite

:57:21.:57:22.

bunch, but they didn't Broadcasters weren't

:57:23.:57:24.

allowed into the speech, but this was captured

:57:25.:57:31.

on a camera phone. And we have to recognise actually

:57:32.:57:36.

for grammars, in terms of disadvantaged children,

:57:37.:57:39.

that they have, they really do help them close

:57:40.:57:42.

the attainment gap. And at the same time

:57:43.:57:45.

we should recognise that ..That parents also want choice

:57:46.:57:47.

for their children and that those schools are often

:57:48.:57:54.

very oversubscribed. I suppose it is a rite of passage

:57:55.:58:09.

for and education secretaries to have this at a head teachers

:58:10.:58:13.

conference book the head are usually more polite. Isn't part of the

:58:14.:58:18.

problem, whether one is for or against the expansion of grammar

:58:19.:58:24.

schools, the government plans are complicated, you cannot sum them up

:58:25.:58:27.

in a sentence. The proof of that is they can still get away with denying

:58:28.:58:32.

they are expanding grammar schools. They will find an alternative

:58:33.:58:35.

formulation because it is not as simple as a brute creation of what

:58:36.:58:39.

we used to know is grammar schools with the absolute cut-off of the 11

:58:40.:58:45.

plus. I am surprised how easy they found it politically. We saw the

:58:46.:58:49.

clip of Justine Greening being jeered a little bit but in the grand

:58:50.:58:54.

scheme, compared to another government trying this idea a decade

:58:55.:58:57.

ago they have got away with it easily and I think what is happening

:58:58.:59:02.

is a perverse consequence of Brexit and the media attention on Brexit,

:59:03.:59:06.

the government of the day can just about get away with slightly more

:59:07.:59:10.

contentious domestic policies on the correct assumption we will be too

:59:11.:59:15.

busy investing our attention in Article 50 and two years of

:59:16.:59:19.

negotiations, WTO terms at everything we have been discussing.

:59:20.:59:25.

I wonder if after grammar schools there will be examples of

:59:26.:59:27.

contentious domestic policies Theresa May can slide in stock

:59:28.:59:32.

because Brexit sucks the life out, takes the attention away. You are a

:59:33.:59:40.

supporter. Broadly. Are you happy with the government approach? They

:59:41.:59:47.

need to have more gumption and stop being apologetic. It is a bazaar

:59:48.:59:51.

area of public policy where we judge the policy on grammar schools based

:59:52.:59:56.

on what it does for children whose parents are unemployed, living on

:59:57.:00:00.

sink estates in Liverpool. It is absurd, we don't judge any other

:00:01.:00:05.

policy like that. It is simple, not contentious, people who are not

:00:06.:00:09.

sure, ask them if they would apply to send their child there, six out

:00:10.:00:13.

of ten said they would. Parents want good schools for their children, we

:00:14.:00:19.

should have appropriate education and they should be straightforward,

:00:20.:00:22.

this is about the future of the economy and we need bright children

:00:23.:00:26.

to get education at the highest level, education for academically

:00:27.:00:32.

bright children. It is supposed to be a signature policy of the Theresa

:00:33.:00:36.

May administration that marks a government different from David

:00:37.:00:40.

Cameron's government who did not go down this road. The signature is

:00:41.:00:41.

pretty blurred, it is hard to read. It is. She is trying to address

:00:42.:00:51.

concerns about those who fail to get into these selective schools and

:00:52.:00:55.

tried to targeted in poorer areas and the rest of it. She will

:00:56.:00:58.

probably come across so many obstacles. It is not clear what form

:00:59.:01:02.

it will take in the end. It is really an example of a signature

:01:03.:01:06.

policy not fully thought through. I think it was one of her first

:01:07.:01:09.

announcements. It was. It surprised everybody. Surprised at the speed

:01:10.:01:13.

and pace at which they were planning to go. Ever since, there have been

:01:14.:01:18.

qualifications and hesitations en route with good cause, in my view. I

:01:19.:01:23.

disagree with Juliet that this is... We all want good schools but if you

:01:24.:01:27.

don't get in there and you end up in a less good school. They already do

:01:28.:01:31.

that. We have selection based on the income of parents getting into a

:01:32.:01:35.

good catchment area, based on the faith of the parents. That becomes

:01:36.:01:41.

very attainable! I might been too shot run christenings for these. --

:01:42.:01:43.

I have been. Now, you may remember this time last

:01:44.:01:46.

week we were talking about the extraordinary claims by US

:01:47.:01:48.

President Donald Trump, on Twitter of course,

:01:49.:01:50.

that Barack Obama had ordered And there was me thinking

:01:51.:01:53.

that wiretaps went out Is it legal for a sitting

:01:54.:01:56.

President to do so, he asked, concluding it was a "new low",

:01:57.:02:01.

and later comparing it to Watergate. Since then, the White House has been

:02:02.:02:10.

pressed to provide evidence for this It hasn't, but it seems it may have

:02:11.:02:13.

initially come from a report on a US website by the former Conservative

:02:14.:02:19.

MP Louise Mensch. She wrote that the FBI had been

:02:20.:02:22.

granted a warrant to intercept communications between Trump's

:02:23.:02:25.

campaign and Russia. Well, Louise Mensch joins

:02:26.:02:32.

us now from New York. Louise, you claimed in early

:02:33.:02:45.

November that the FBI had secured a court warrants to monitor

:02:46.:02:48.

communications between trump Tower in New York at two Russian banks.

:02:49.:02:54.

It's now four months later. Isn't it the case that nobody has proved the

:02:55.:02:55.

existence of this warrant? First of all, forgive me Andrew, one

:02:56.:03:05.

takes 1's life in one's hand when it is you but I have to correct your

:03:06.:03:09.

characterisation of my reporting. It is very important. I did not report

:03:10.:03:13.

that the FBI had a warrant to intercept anything or that Trump

:03:14.:03:18.

tower was any part of it. What I reported was that the FBI obtained a

:03:19.:03:21.

warrant is targeted on all communications between two Russian

:03:22.:03:26.

banks and were, therefore, allowed to examine US persons in the context

:03:27.:03:33.

of their investigation. What the Americans call legally incidental

:03:34.:03:36.

collection. I certainly didn't report that the warrant was able to

:03:37.:03:42.

intercept or that it had location basis, for example Trump tower. I

:03:43.:03:46.

just didn't report that. The reason that matters so much is that I now

:03:47.:03:51.

believe based on the President's reaction, there may well be a

:03:52.:03:56.

wiretap act Trump Tower. If so, Donald Trump has just tweeted out

:03:57.:03:59.

evidence in an ongoing criminal case that neither I nor anybody else

:04:00.:04:03.

reported. He is right about Watergate because he will have

:04:04.:04:07.

committed obstruction of justice directly from his Twitter account.

:04:08.:04:11.

Let me come back as thank you for clarifying. Let me come back to the

:04:12.:04:17.

question. -- and thank you. We have not yet got proof that this warrant

:04:18.:04:22.

exists, do we? No and we are most unlikely to get it because it would

:04:23.:04:26.

be a heinous crime for Donald Trump to reveal its existence. In America

:04:27.:04:31.

they call it a Glomar response. I can neither confirm nor deny. That

:04:32.:04:34.

is what all American officials will have to say legally. If you are

:04:35.:04:39.

looking for proof, you won't get it until and unless a court cases

:04:40.:04:42.

brought. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The BBC validated

:04:43.:04:48.

this two months after me in their reporting by the journalist Paul

:04:49.:04:52.

Wood. The Guardian, they also separately from their own sources

:04:53.:04:55.

validated the existence of the warrant. If you are in America, you

:04:56.:05:00.

would know that CNN and others are reporting that the investigation in

:05:01.:05:03.

ongoing. Let me come onto the wider point. You believe the Trump

:05:04.:05:07.

campaign including the president were complicit with the Russians

:05:08.:05:11.

during the 2016 election campaign to such an extent that Mr Trump should

:05:12.:05:15.

be impeached. What evidence did you have?

:05:16.:05:21.

That is an enormous amount of evidence. You could start with him

:05:22.:05:27.

saying, hey, Russia, if you are listening, please release all the

:05:28.:05:29.

Hillary Clinton's e-mails. That's not evidence. I think it rather is,

:05:30.:05:34.

actually. Especially if you look at some of the evidence that exists on

:05:35.:05:38.

Twitter and elsewhere of people talking directly to his social media

:05:39.:05:42.

manager, Dan should be no and telling him to do that before it

:05:43.:05:46.

happened. There is a bit out there. The BBC itself reported that in

:05:47.:05:51.

April of last year, a six agency task force, not just the FBI, but

:05:52.:05:55.

the Treasury Department, was looking at this. I believe there is an

:05:56.:05:59.

enormous amount of evidence. And then there is the steel dossier

:06:00.:06:02.

which was included in an official report of the US intelligence

:06:03.:06:10.

committee. You've also ... Just to be clear, we don't have hard

:06:11.:06:13.

evidence yet whether this warrant exists. It may or may not. There is

:06:14.:06:17.

doubt about... There are claims about whether there is evidence

:06:18.:06:21.

about Mr Trump and the Russians. That is another matter. You claimed

:06:22.:06:26.

that President Putin had Andrew Breitbart murdered to pave the way

:06:27.:06:33.

for Steve Bannon to play a key role in the Trump administration. I

:06:34.:06:37.

haven't. You said that Steve Bannon is behind bomb threats to Jewish

:06:38.:06:41.

community centres. Aren't you in danger of just peddling wild

:06:42.:06:46.

conspiracy theories? No. Festival, I haven't. No matter how many times

:06:47.:06:50.

people say this, it's not going to be true -- first of all. I said in

:06:51.:06:54.

twitter I believe that to be the case about the murder of Andrew

:06:55.:06:58.

Breitbart. You believe President Putin murdered him. I didn't! You

:06:59.:07:04.

said I reported it, but I believed it. You put it on twitter that you

:07:05.:07:08.

believed it but you don't have a shred of evidence. I do. Indeed, I

:07:09.:07:14.

know made assertions. What is the evidence that Mr Putin murdered

:07:15.:07:18.

Andrew Breitbart? I said I believe it. You may believe there are

:07:19.:07:24.

fairies at the bottom of your garden, it doesn't make it true. I

:07:25.:07:28.

may indeed. And if I say so, that's my belief. If I say I am reporting,

:07:29.:07:36.

as I did with the Fisa warrant exists, I have a basis in fact. They

:07:37.:07:43.

believe is just a belief. I know you are relatively new to journalism.

:07:44.:07:49.

Let me get the rules right. Andrew, jealousy is not your colour... If it

:07:50.:07:53.

is twitter, we don't believe it but if it is on your website, we should

:07:54.:07:57.

believe it? If I report something and I say this happened, then I am

:07:58.:08:02.

making an assertion. If I describe a belief, I am describing a belief.

:08:03.:08:07.

Subtlety may be a little difficult for you... No, no. If you want to be

:08:08.:08:11.

a journalist, beliefs have to be backed up with evidence. Really? Do

:08:12.:08:19.

you have a faith? It's not a matter of faith, maybe in your case, that

:08:20.:08:21.

President Putin murdered Andrew Breitbart. A belief and a report at

:08:22.:08:28.

two different things and no matter how often you say that they are the

:08:29.:08:32.

same, they will never be the same. You've said in today's Sunday Times

:08:33.:08:36.

here in London that you've turned into" a temporary superpower" where

:08:37.:08:45.

you "See things really clearly". Have you become delusional? No. I am

:08:46.:08:49.

describing a biological basis for ADHD, which I have. As any of your

:08:50.:08:56.

viewers who are doctors will know. It provides people with

:08:57.:08:58.

unfortunately a lot of scattered focus, they are very messy and

:08:59.:09:02.

absent-minded but when they are interested in things and they have

:09:03.:09:06.

ADHD they can have a condition which is hyper focus. You concentrate very

:09:07.:09:10.

hard on a given subject and you can see patterns and connections. That

:09:11.:09:15.

is biological. Thank you for explaining that. And for getting up

:09:16.:09:21.

early in New York. The first time ever I have interviewed a temporary

:09:22.:09:25.

superpower. Thank you. You are so lucky! You are so lucky! I don't

:09:26.:09:28.

think it's going to happen again. Please don't ask us to comment on

:09:29.:09:33.

that interview! I will not ask you, viewers will make up their own

:09:34.:09:38.

minds. Let's come back to be more mundane world of Article 50. Stop

:09:39.:09:39.

the killing! Will it get through at the

:09:40.:09:47.

government wanted it? Without the Lords amendment falling by the way

:09:48.:09:50.

that? I am sure the Lord will not try to ping-pong this back and

:09:51.:09:54.

forth. So we are at the end of this particular legislative phase. The

:09:55.:09:58.

fact that all three Brexit Cabinet ministers, number ten often don't

:09:59.:10:01.

like one of them going out on a broadcast interview on a Sunday,

:10:02.:10:05.

they've all been out and about. That suggests to me they are working on

:10:06.:10:08.

the assumption it will be triggered this week. This week. The

:10:09.:10:14.

negotiations will begin or at least the process begins. The negotiation

:10:15.:10:18.

process may be difficult, given all of the European elections. The Dutch

:10:19.:10:22.

this week. And then the French and maybe the Italians and certainly the

:10:23.:10:26.

Germans by the end of September, which is less predictable than it

:10:27.:10:30.

was. Given all that, what did you make of Anna Soubry's claim, Viacom

:10:31.:10:36.

on her part, that we may just end up crashing out in six months question

:10:37.:10:40.

-- fear on her part. It was not just that that we made that deliberately

:10:41.:10:46.

organising. I want us to get on with the deals.

:10:47.:10:49.

Everyone knows a good deal is the best option. Who knows what is going

:10:50.:10:56.

to be on the table when we finally go out? Fascinatingly, the demand

:10:57.:10:59.

for some money back, given the amount of money... Net gains and net

:11:00.:11:05.

costs in terms of us leaving for the EU. It is all to play for. That will

:11:06.:11:12.

be a possible early grounds for a confrontation between the UK and the

:11:13.:11:16.

EU. My understanding is that they expect to do a deal on reciprocal

:11:17.:11:21.

rights of EU nationals, EU nationals here, UK citizens there, quite

:11:22.:11:24.

quickly. They want to clear that up and that will be done. Then they

:11:25.:11:29.

will hit this problem that the EU will be saying you've got to agree

:11:30.:11:32.

the divorce Bill first before we talk about the free trade bill.

:11:33.:11:37.

David Davis saying quite clearly, no, they go together because of the

:11:38.:11:41.

size of the bill. It will be determined, in our part, by how good

:11:42.:11:46.

the access will be. The mutual recognition of EU residents' rights

:11:47.:11:50.

is no trouble. A huge amount of fuss is attracted to that subject but it

:11:51.:11:53.

is the easiest thing to deal with, as is free movement for tourists.

:11:54.:11:57.

Money is what will make it incredibly acrimonious. Incredibly

:11:58.:12:00.

quickly. I imagine the dominant story in the summer will be all

:12:01.:12:05.

about that. This was Anna Soubry's implication, members of the

:12:06.:12:08.

governors could strongly argue, things are so poisonous and so

:12:09.:12:11.

unpleasant at the moment, the dealers are advancing -- members of

:12:12.:12:15.

the government. Why not call it a day and go out on WTO terms while

:12:16.:12:21.

public opinion is still in that direction in that Eurosceptic

:12:22.:12:24.

direction? No buyers' remorse about last year's referendum. The longer

:12:25.:12:28.

they leave it, view more opportunity there is for some kind of public

:12:29.:12:32.

resistance and change of mind to take place. The longer believe it,

:12:33.:12:36.

the more people who voted for Brexit and people who voted Remain and

:12:37.:12:40.

think we didn't get world War three will start being quite angry with

:12:41.:12:44.

the EU for not agreeing a deal. In terms of the rights of EU nationals

:12:45.:12:48.

he and Brits abroad, by all accounts, 26 of the 27 have agreed

:12:49.:12:53.

individually. Angela Merkel is the only person who has held that up.

:12:54.:12:56.

That will be dealt with in a matter of days. The chances of a deal being

:12:57.:13:02.

done is likely but in ten seconds... It would not be a bad bet to protect

:13:03.:13:06.

your on something not happening, you might get pretty good odds? The odds

:13:07.:13:10.

are going up that a deal doesn't happen. But, as I said earlier, the

:13:11.:13:16.

House of Commons will not endorse no deal. We are either in an early

:13:17.:13:20.

election or she has to go back again. Either way, you will need us!

:13:21.:13:25.

We will be back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two ahead of what looks like

:13:26.:13:29.

being a big week in politics. We will be back here same time, same

:13:30.:13:30.

place. Remember, if it's Sunday,

:13:31.:13:33.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:34.:13:38.

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