19/03/2017 Sunday Politics South West


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19/03/2017

Andrew Neil and Lucie Fisher with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew is joined by head of NHS Providers Chris Hopson, Nick Clegg MP and Andrew Gwynne MP.


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:34.:00:37.

She faces huge political fights over Brexit, Scottish independence,

:00:38.:00:40.

After a tumultuous political week, we'll analyse the PM's prospects.

:00:41.:00:53.

With chatter increasing about a possible early General Election,

:00:54.:00:55.

Jeremy Corbyn's campaign chief joins me live.

:00:56.:01:00.

NHS bosses warn health services in England are facing "mission

:01:01.:01:03.

impossible" and waiting times for operations will rocket,

:01:04.:01:07.

unless hospitals are given more cash this year.

:01:08.:01:10.

In the south-west, is it a fail for Providers joins me live.

:01:11.:01:21.

In the south-west, is it a fail for fairer school funding? And anything

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less than All that to come before 12:15pm,

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and I'll also be talking to the former leader

:01:26.:01:35.

of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg from his party's spring

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conference in York. With me here in the studio,

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throughout the programme, three of the country's top political

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commentators: Tom Newton Dunn,

:01:46.:01:47.

Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards. They'll be tweeting their

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thoughts using #bbcsp. So, the political challenges facing

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Theresa May are stacking up. As well as negotiating

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Britain's exit from the EU, the PM must now deal with SNP

:01:59.:02:03.

demands for a second referendum on Scottish independence,

:02:04.:02:07.

backbenchers agitating against cuts to school budgets, and a humiliated

:02:08.:02:11.

Chancellor forced to u-turn on a key budget measure just one week

:02:12.:02:14.

after announcing it. Here's Adam Fleming

:02:15.:02:19.

on aturbulent political week Monday, 11:30am, TV crews gather

:02:20.:02:21.

in the residence of the First Minister of Scotland,

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who's got a surprise. She wants a vote on whether Scotland

:02:39.:02:39.

should leave the UK By taking the steps I have set out

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today I am ensuring that Scotland's future will be decided,

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not just by me, the Scottish Government,

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or the SNP, it will be decided

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by the people of Scotland. Westminster, 6:25pm

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the same day, MPs reject amendments to the legislation

:02:53.:03:02.

authorising the Prime Minister to The Bill ceremonially heads

:03:03.:03:06.

to the Lords where peers abandoned attempts to change it

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and it becomes law. But Downing Street doesn't trigger

:03:21.:03:22.

Article 50 as many had expected. Some say they were spooked

:03:23.:03:29.

by Nicola Sturgeon. We get an e-mail from

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the Treasury can the We get an e-mail from

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the Treasury cancelling the planned rise in

:03:49.:03:49.

National Insurance for the self-employed

:03:50.:04:01.

announced the budget. It's just minutes before

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Prime Minister's Questions at noon. The trend towards greater

:04:03.:04:04.

self-employment does create a We will bring forward

:04:05.:04:06.

further proposals but we will not bring forward

:04:07.:04:09.

increases to NICs later in this It seems to me like a government

:04:10.:04:12.

in a bit of chaos here. By making this change today

:04:13.:04:16.

we are listening to our colleagues fulfil both the letter

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and the spirit of our manifesto tax Thursday, 7am, Conservative

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campaign HQ and the Electoral Commission fines the party

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?70,000 for misreporting spending But that's not what

:04:33.:04:34.

the Prime Minister Because at 12:19pm she

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gives her verdict on a We should be working

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together, not pulling apart. We should be working

:04:44.:04:48.

together to get that right deal for Scotland,

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that So, as I say, that's my job

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as Prime Minister and so for that reason I say to the SNP

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now is not the time. Friday and time for

:04:57.:05:00.

the faithful to gather. SNP activists at their

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spring conference Conservatives in Cardiff

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to hear the Prime Minister promote her plan for a more

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meritocratic Brexit Britain. At 11:10am comes some news

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about a newspaper that's frankly I'm thrilled and excited to be

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the new editor of The Evening Standard and,

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you know, with so many big issues in our world

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what good analysis, great news

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journalism. It's a really important time

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for good journalism that The Evening Standard

:05:37.:05:41.

is going to provide. There was no let-up yesterday

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as Gordon Brown launched proposals Under my proposals

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we keep the Barnett Formula, we keep the fiscal

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transfers, but we also bring the and fisheries back to the Scottish

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Parliament. And just think, all this and we're

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still counting down to the What a week in politics. It has been

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a torrid week for the government, Isabel Oakeshott, but does Theresa

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May shake it off, or is this a sign of worse to come? We may all be

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feeling a bit breathless after the events of last week and we are in

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for a a long war of attrition with the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon's strategy

:06:37.:06:40.

will be to foster over lengthy periods of time as much resentment

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and anger as she can in Scotland and try to create the impression that

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independence is somehow inevitable. Is Scotland the biggest challenge

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for Theresa May in the next year or so? I think it probably is because

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if you look at how relatively easily the Brexit bill went through on an

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issue where people could hardly feel more passionate in the Commons, and

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actually despite all the potential drama it has gone through quite

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smoothly. To go back to your original question, she just carries

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on. Don't underestimate the basic quiet and will towards Theresa May

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amongst the majority of Tory backbenchers. Yes, there are

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difficult little issues over school funding, sorry, it's not a little

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issue, it is a big one but she will get over that and treat each thing

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as it comes and keep pressing on. Has she not called Nicola Sturgeon's

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Bluff in that the First Minister said I want a referendum, here is

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roughly when I wanted, the Prime Minister says you're not having one.

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What happens next? She has done quite well and impact the progress

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Theresa May made this week in frustrating Nicola Sturgeon was

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evident when Nicola Sturgeon said, OK, maybe we can talk about the

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timing after. Nicola Sturgeon has already been the first one to blink.

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I would slightly disagree with Isabel Oakeshott, I don't agree

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Scotland will be the biggest hurdle for her. What this week showed as is

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Theresa May... It was a reality bites week. Theresa May is juggling

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four mammoth crises at the same time, Brexit obviously which I still

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think will be the biggest challenge to get a good deal, Trump left field

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who popped up at GCHQ on Friday and Scotland and the fiscal challenge,

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this enormous great problem, and it reinforced the point this is not an

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easy time in politics. The budget is over four years. That was one small

:08:35.:08:37.

problem, the immediate problem is how to fill the social care crisis

:08:38.:08:41.

and the ageing demographic. This is not normal times in British politics

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and Theresa May does not have a normal workload on her plate, hence

:08:45.:08:47.

why I think we will see more mistakes made as time goes on and as

:08:48.:08:51.

she has this almost impossible workload to juggle. How tempted do

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you think the Prime Minister is to call an early election? There is

:08:58.:09:02.

more chatter about it now. Is she tempted and if there is will she

:09:03.:09:06.

succumb? I will answer that in a second as Harold Wilson used to say.

:09:07.:09:09.

I want to agree, disagree with the rest of the panel about how she has

:09:10.:09:12.

out manipulated Nicola Sturgeon this week. I think Nicola Sturgeon

:09:13.:09:18.

expected Theresa May to say no to her expected timetable. It would be

:09:19.:09:20.

amazing if she had said yes. She expected her to say no but Sturgeon

:09:21.:09:26.

catalyst that will fuel support for her cause. There is no sign of that.

:09:27.:09:32.

The latest poll this morning shows 66-44 against independence and only

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13% think they would be better off with an independent Scotland and a

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clear majority do not want a second referendum. But the calculation of

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resistance from Westminster combined with Brexit which hasn't started

:09:45.:09:48.

yet, I think this is her calculation, she didn't expect

:09:49.:09:52.

Theresa May to say, sure, go ahead, I'm sure she expected Theresa May to

:09:53.:09:57.

say no, you can't have it at your desired timetable. On the wider

:09:58.:10:01.

point, I think Theresa May is in a fascinating position, she is both

:10:02.:10:04.

strong because she faces weak opposition and is ahead in the

:10:05.:10:08.

opinion polls. But faces the most daunting agenda of any Prime

:10:09.:10:13.

Minister for 40 or 50 years, I think. So it's a weird combination.

:10:14.:10:18.

I don't think she wants to call an election. I don't think she has

:10:19.:10:21.

thought about how you would manipulate it, what the trigger

:10:22.:10:25.

would be, and whether she's got the energy and space to prepare for and

:10:26.:10:29.

then mount a campaign was beginning the Brexit negotiation. Now, you

:10:30.:10:34.

could see the cause would be the small majorities that will make her

:10:35.:10:38.

life hellish, which it will do. Whether a landslide would help is

:10:39.:10:42.

another question, they can be difficult too. But I think the

:10:43.:10:45.

problems outweigh the advantages of going early. Do you think she would

:10:46.:10:50.

go for an early election? I don't and I think you have to look at the

:10:51.:10:54.

rhetoric coming out of No 10 which is so firm on this question, it is a

:10:55.:10:58.

delicious prospect for us as commentators to think there might be

:10:59.:11:00.

an election around the corner but they are so firm on this I can't see

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it happening. I agree, we are in unanimous agreement on this one. It

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is superficially attractive because she would love the big majority and

:11:09.:11:11.

she would get a lot more through Parliament especially with Brexit.

:11:12.:11:15.

The nitty-gritty of it makes an early General Election this year

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almost impossible. How do you write a manifesto on high Brexit versus

:11:19.:11:25.

soft Brexit, it opens up a Pandora's box of uncertainties. And there is

:11:26.:11:29.

enough with the European elections. The EU will say are we negotiating

:11:30.:11:32.

with you or the person who may replace you? How do you keep the

:11:33.:11:36.

Tory party united going to an election? How do you call one, with

:11:37.:11:39.

a vote of no confidence in yourself you may end up losing. Easy on paper

:11:40.:11:44.

but difficult in practice. We shall see.

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So if Theresa May did go for an early election this spring,

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The party's campaigns and elections chief Andrew Gwynne

:11:49.:11:52.

Andrew Gwynne, the government, as we have just been talking about,

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executed one of the most embarrassing U-turns in recent

:12:01.:12:03.

history this week. It has been a torrid time for the Theresa May

:12:04.:12:08.

government. Why are the Tories still so chipper?

:12:09.:12:10.

The Labour Party has been on an early election footing since before

:12:11.:12:15.

Christmas and we are preparing ourselves for that eventuality in

:12:16.:12:19.

case that does come. That means that we've got to get ourselves into a

:12:20.:12:24.

position whereby we can not only challenge the government but we can

:12:25.:12:28.

also offer a valuable alternative for the British people to choose

:12:29.:12:35.

from should that election arise. So, would you welcome an early General

:12:36.:12:39.

Election? Well, of course, I don't want this government to be in power

:12:40.:12:42.

so of course if there is an opportunity to put a case to the

:12:43.:12:45.

British people as to why there is a better way, and I believe the Labour

:12:46.:12:50.

way is the better way than of course we would want to put that case to

:12:51.:12:54.

the country. So, would Labour vote in the Commons for an early

:12:55.:13:00.

election? Well, of course as an opposition, not wanting to be in

:13:01.:13:04.

opposition, wanting to be in government should the government put

:13:05.:13:08.

forward a measure in accordance with the Fixed-term Parliaments Act then

:13:09.:13:12.

that's something we would very seriously have to consider. I know

:13:13.:13:14.

you would have to consider it but would you vote for an early election

:13:15.:13:18.

or not? Well, of course we want to be the government so if the current

:13:19.:13:23.

government puts forward measures to bring forward a General Election we

:13:24.:13:26.

would want to put our case to the British public and that's one of the

:13:27.:13:29.

jobs that I've been given, together Labour Party organisation early into

:13:30.:13:35.

a position where we can fight a General Election --

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organisationally. For the avoidance of doubt, if the Government work to

:13:40.:13:44.

issue a motion in the Commons for an early election, the Labour Party

:13:45.:13:47.

would vote for an early election? It would be very difficult not,

:13:48.:13:51.

Andrew. If the Government wants to dissolve parliament, wants a General

:13:52.:13:55.

Election, we don't want the Tories in government, we want to be in

:13:56.:13:58.

government and we want to have that opportunity to put that case to the

:13:59.:14:01.

British people. Are you ready for an early election?

:14:02.:14:11.

You say you have been on a war all but since the Labour conference last

:14:12.:14:13.

autumn, but are you ready for one? How big is the election fighting

:14:14.:14:16.

fund? We have substantial amounts of money in our fighting fund, that is

:14:17.:14:19.

true, because not only has the Labour Party managed to eliminate

:14:20.:14:27.

its own financial deficit that it inherited from previous election

:14:28.:14:30.

campaigns, we have also managed to build up a substantial fund in the

:14:31.:14:37.

off chance we have an election. We have also expanded massively

:14:38.:14:42.

operations at Labour HQ, we are taking on additional staff, and one

:14:43.:14:46.

of the jobs that myself and Ian Lavery who I job share with are

:14:47.:14:50.

currently doing is to go around the Parliamentary Labour Party to make

:14:51.:14:53.

sure that Labour colleagues have the support and the resources that they

:14:54.:14:58.

need, should they have to face the electorate in their constituencies.

:14:59.:15:01.

So you are on a war footing, ready for the fight, you say you would

:15:02.:15:05.

vote for the fight, so have you got your tax and spend policies ready to

:15:06.:15:12.

roll out? That is something the shadow Treasury team will be

:15:13.:15:15.

discussing. One of the things is, if there is an early General Election,

:15:16.:15:18.

the normal timetable for these things gets fast-track because our

:15:19.:15:23.

policy decision-making body, its annual conference, we have the

:15:24.:15:28.

national policy forum that creates policies suggestions. You have been

:15:29.:15:31.

on a war footing since the last Labour conference, that is what Mr

:15:32.:15:35.

Corbyn told us. So you must have a fair idea of what policies you would

:15:36.:15:40.

fight an early election on. How much extra per year would you spend on

:15:41.:15:44.

the NHS? Well, look, I'm not going to set out the Labour manifesto for

:15:45.:15:49.

an election that hasn't been called. I'm just asking you about the NHS.

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You must have a policy for that. We have a policy for the NHS. So how

:15:54.:15:59.

much extra? I will not set out Labour's tax-and-spend policies here

:16:00.:16:02.

on The Sunday Politics when there hasn't even been election called.

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You said you had been on a war footing and you are prepared to vote

:16:07.:16:12.

for one, so if you can't Tommy that, can you tell me what the corporation

:16:13.:16:16.

rate tax on company profits be under a Labour government -- tell me that.

:16:17.:16:23.

You will have to be patient. I have. And wait for Mrs May to trigger an

:16:24.:16:27.

early election. If there is an election on the 4th of May the rich

:16:28.:16:31.

would have to be issued on the 27th of March, so that's not long to

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wait. If that date passes we aren't having an election on the 4th of May

:16:36.:16:40.

and the normal timetable for policy development will continue. All

:16:41.:16:44.

right. You lost Copeland, I think you were in charge of a by-election

:16:45.:16:49.

for Labour, your national poll ratings are still dire, even after

:16:50.:16:54.

week of terrible times for the Tories. Sometimes you even lose

:16:55.:16:58.

local government by-elections in safe seats, including in the place

:16:59.:17:02.

you are now, in Salford. How long does Mr Corbyn have to turn this

:17:03.:17:08.

around? Well, look, the issue of the Labour leadership was settled last

:17:09.:17:11.

year. The last thing the Labour Party now needs is another period of

:17:12.:17:15.

introspection with the Labour Party merely talks to the Labour Party. We

:17:16.:17:22.

are now on an election footing in case Mrs May does trigger an early

:17:23.:17:25.

General Election. We need to be talking to the British people are

:17:26.:17:31.

not to ourselves. So any speculation about the Labour leadership might

:17:32.:17:35.

excite you in the media but actually for us in the Labour Party it's

:17:36.:17:39.

about re-engaging and reconnecting with the voters. Rather than being

:17:40.:17:43.

excited, I feel quite daunted at the prospect of an early election. So I

:17:44.:17:49.

wouldn't get that right. Normally, given the number of mistakes this

:17:50.:17:53.

government has made, and its mid-term, you would expect any

:17:54.:17:55.

self-respecting opposition to be about ten points ahead. On the

:17:56.:18:00.

latest polls this morning you are 17 behind. There is a 27-30 point gap

:18:01.:18:07.

from where you should normally be as an opposition. Are you telling me

:18:08.:18:11.

that if that doesn't change, you still fight the General Election

:18:12.:18:12.

with Mr Corbyn? These are matters for the future. I

:18:13.:18:22.

believe the leadership issue was settled last year. We have had two

:18:23.:18:28.

leadership contest in two years. Would you seriously contemplate

:18:29.:18:32.

going into the next election, if it is early I perfectly understand

:18:33.:18:37.

Jeremy Corbyn is your man, but if it is not until 2020, and you are still

:18:38.:18:41.

17 points behind in the polls, will you go into the next election like

:18:42.:18:46.

that? There is a lot of future looking and speculation there, I

:18:47.:18:55.

don't know what the future holds, where the Labour Party will be in 12

:18:56.:18:58.

months let alone by 2020 summit cross those bridges when we come to

:18:59.:19:01.

it. My main challenge is to make sure the Labour Party is in the best

:19:02.:19:04.

possible place organisationally to fight an election, that's my

:19:05.:19:07.

challenge and I'm up for that to make sure we are in the best

:19:08.:19:11.

possible place to make sure Labour returns as many Labour MPs as

:19:12.:19:16.

possible. Thank you for joining us. And we're joined now

:19:17.:19:21.

from the Liberal Democrats' spring conference in York by the former

:19:22.:19:23.

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg. Good morning. In his conference

:19:24.:19:33.

speech today, Tim Farron lumps Theresa May with Vladimir Putin,

:19:34.:19:36.

Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump. In what way is Mrs May similar to

:19:37.:19:46.

Marine Le Pen? Of course he is not saying Theresa May is identical to

:19:47.:19:49.

Marine Le Pen, I think what Tim Wilby spelling out shortly in his

:19:50.:19:55.

speech is that we need to be aware what's going on in the world, the

:19:56.:19:58.

International settlement that was arrived at after the First World --

:19:59.:20:08.

Second World War, that bound supranational organisations is under

:20:09.:20:13.

attack from characters as diverse as Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and

:20:14.:20:18.

Donald Trump, and that by side in so ostentatiously with Donald Trump and

:20:19.:20:22.

pursuing this very hard Brexit, Theresa May appears to be giving

:20:23.:20:27.

succour to that much more isolationist chauvinist view of the

:20:28.:20:30.

world than the multilateral approach that Britain has subscribed to for a

:20:31.:20:36.

long time. The exact words he plans to use are welcome to the New World

:20:37.:20:42.

order, Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump, Marine Le Pen, Theresa May,

:20:43.:20:49.

aggressive and teenage to, anti-EU, nationalistic. In what way is Mrs

:20:50.:20:55.

May fitting into any of that? In what way is she similar to Vladimir

:20:56.:21:00.

Putin? I'm not aware she has interfered with other people's

:21:01.:21:04.

elections. The clue is in the quote you just read out, which is the

:21:05.:21:11.

world order. The world order over the last half century or more, by

:21:12.:21:14.

the way a lesson I'm afraid we have to learn in Europe because of the

:21:15.:21:18.

terrible bloodshed of two world was in the space of a few decades, was

:21:19.:21:24.

based on the idea might is not right. Strong arm leaders cannot

:21:25.:21:27.

throw their weight around. What we have now with Putin, the populism

:21:28.:21:36.

across parts of Europe and Donald Trump who thinks the EU will unravel

:21:37.:21:41.

is a shift to a radically different view of the world. Mrs May doesn't

:21:42.:21:47.

think any of that. She is not antenatal, not anti-EU, she says she

:21:48.:21:52.

wants the EU to succeed. She's not aggressive as far as I'm aware so

:21:53.:21:57.

I'm not sure why you would lump the British Prime Minister in with these

:21:58.:22:04.

other characters. Let me explain, by choosing this uncompromising

:22:05.:22:09.

approach to Brexit, clearly in doing so she, in my view, maybe not yours

:22:10.:22:15.

or others, is pursuing a self harming approach to the United

:22:16.:22:19.

Kingdom but also pulling up the threads that bind the rest of the

:22:20.:22:24.

European Union together, in so ostentatiously siding with Donald

:22:25.:22:29.

Trump, somehow declaring in my view speciously that we can make up with

:22:30.:22:37.

the trade we will lose, she's not challenging the shift to a more

:22:38.:22:41.

chauvinist approach to world affairs that is happening in many places.

:22:42.:22:46.

You are at your party's Spring conference, I think we can agree any

:22:47.:22:51.

Lib Dem come back will take a long time. Would Tory dominance be more

:22:52.:22:57.

effectively challenged by a realignment of the centre and the

:22:58.:22:59.

centre-left? Are you working towards that? I missed half the question but

:23:00.:23:05.

I think you are talking about a realignment. As a cook a way to get

:23:06.:23:12.

over Tory dominance, would you want that to happen? Are you working

:23:13.:23:18.

towards that? My view is the recovery of the Lib Dems will be

:23:19.:23:22.

quicker than you suggest. People often forget that even the low point

:23:23.:23:26.

of our fortunes in the last election we still got a million more votes

:23:27.:23:31.

than the SNP, it's only because we have got this crazy electoral

:23:32.:23:40.

system... But the SNP fight in Scotland, you fight in the whole

:23:41.:23:46.

country! But I'm saying the way seats are allocated overlooks the

:23:47.:23:53.

fact that 2.5 million still voted for us. But my own view is of course

:23:54.:23:58.

there are people feeling increasingly homeless in the liberal

:23:59.:24:01.

wing of the Conservative Party because they are now in a party

:24:02.:24:06.

which is in effect indistinguishable from Ukip on some of the biggest

:24:07.:24:12.

issues of the day, and homeless folk on the rational, reasonable wing of

:24:13.:24:15.

the Labour Party. I would invite them to join the Liberal Democrats

:24:16.:24:20.

and I would invite everyone across parties to talk about the idea is

:24:21.:24:24.

that bind us because the Westminster village can invest a lot of energy

:24:25.:24:30.

building new castles in the sky, inventing new names for parties when

:24:31.:24:33.

actually what you want is for people on the progressive centre ground of

:24:34.:24:40.

British politics to talk about the ideas that unite them, from the

:24:41.:24:47.

dilemmas of artificial intelligence to climate change. Do you think in

:24:48.:24:54.

your own view, can Brexit still be thwarted or is it now a matter of

:24:55.:25:01.

getting the best terms? I think we are in an interlude, almost a calm

:25:02.:25:06.

between two storms, the storm of the referendum itself and the collision

:25:07.:25:10.

between the Government's stated ambitions for Brexit and the reality

:25:11.:25:14.

of having to negotiate something unworkable with 27 other

:25:15.:25:19.

governments. The one thing I can guarantee you is that what the

:25:20.:25:22.

Government has promised to the British people cannot happen. Over a

:25:23.:25:35.

slower period of time we will work out our new relationship with the

:25:36.:25:39.

European Union. Theresa May said she will settle divorce arrangements,

:25:40.:25:46.

and pensions, so one, negotiate new trade agreements, new climate change

:25:47.:25:50.

policies and so on, and have all of that ratified within two years, that

:25:51.:25:54.

will not happen so I think there will be a lot of turbulence in the

:25:55.:26:00.

next couple of years. Will you use this turbulence to try to thwart

:26:01.:26:05.

Brexit, to find a way of rolling back the decision? It's not about

:26:06.:26:11.

repeating the debates of the past or thwarting the will of the people but

:26:12.:26:15.

it is comparing what people were promised from the ?350 million for

:26:16.:26:19.

the NHS every week through to this glittering array of new trade

:26:20.:26:26.

agreements we will sign across the world, with the reality that will

:26:27.:26:30.

transpire in the next couple of years and at that point, yes it is

:26:31.:26:34.

my belief people should be able to take a second look at if that is

:26:35.:26:39.

what they really want. A couple of quick questions, would you welcome

:26:40.:26:47.

an early general election? I always welcome them, we couldn't do worse

:26:48.:26:52.

than we did last time. That is certainly true. You have a column in

:26:53.:26:56.

the Evening Standard, have you spoken to the new editor about

:26:57.:27:00.

whether he will keep your column or spike it? No, I wait in nervous

:27:01.:27:09.

anticipation. Can you be a newspaper editor in the morning and an MP in

:27:10.:27:16.

the afternoon? Do I think that's feasible? Sorry, I missed a bit.

:27:17.:27:21.

There is no prohibition, no law against MPs being editors. They have

:27:22.:27:27.

been in the past and no doubt will again in the future. He is taking a

:27:28.:27:33.

lot on, he is an editor, also wanting to be an MP, a jetsetting

:27:34.:27:38.

academic in the States, working in the city, I suspect something will

:27:39.:27:43.

give. It seems to me even by his self-confidence standards in his own

:27:44.:27:47.

abilities I suspect he is taking on a little bit too much. Very

:27:48.:27:53.

diplomatic, Mr Clegg, I'm sure you will get to keep the column. Thanks

:27:54.:27:55.

for joining us. Now, for the last six months

:27:56.:27:59.

England's NHS bosses have been warning the health service needs

:28:00.:28:02.

more money to help it meet But in his first Budget,

:28:03.:28:04.

the Chancellor offered no immediate relief,

:28:05.:28:07.

and today the head of the organisation representing

:28:08.:28:09.

England's NHS trusts says hundreds of thousands of patients will have

:28:10.:28:11.

to wait longer for both emergency care and planned operations,

:28:12.:28:14.

unless the Government Warnings over funding

:28:15.:28:16.

are not exactly new. Back in 2014 the head of the NHS

:28:17.:28:23.

in England, Simon Stevens, published his plan for the future

:28:24.:28:26.

of the health service. In his five-year forward view,

:28:27.:28:31.

Stevens said the NHS in England would face a funding shortfall of up

:28:32.:28:34.

to ?30 billion by 2020. To bridge that gap he said the NHS

:28:35.:28:37.

would need more money from the Government,

:28:38.:28:40.

at least ?8 billion extra, and that the health service

:28:41.:28:43.

could account for the rest by making The Government says it's given

:28:44.:28:46.

the health service more than what it asked for, and that NHS

:28:47.:28:53.

in England will have received That number is disputed by NHS

:28:54.:28:56.

managers and the chair of Parliament's health committee,

:28:57.:29:01.

who say the figure is more like ?4.5 billion, while other parts

:29:02.:29:04.

of the health and social care budget have been cut, putting

:29:05.:29:07.

pressure on the front line. Last year, two thirds of NHS

:29:08.:29:13.

trusts in England finished the year in the red,

:29:14.:29:16.

and despite emergency bailouts from the Government,

:29:17.:29:18.

the NHS is likely to record Meanwhile national targets

:29:19.:29:20.

on waiting times for A departments, diagnostic tests,

:29:21.:29:25.

and operations are being This month's Budget provided

:29:26.:29:28.

?2 billion for social care but there was no new cash

:29:29.:29:35.

for the NHS, leading trusts to warn that patient care is beginning

:29:36.:29:39.

to suffer, and what is being asked And I'm joined now by

:29:40.:29:42.

the Chief Executive of NHS Providers in England,

:29:43.:29:48.

Chris Hopson. Welcome to the programme. Morning,

:29:49.:29:59.

Andrew. I will come onto the extra money you need to do your job

:30:00.:30:02.

properly in a minute but first, part of the deal was you had to make 22

:30:03.:30:06.

billion in efficiency savings, not a bank that money but spend it on

:30:07.:30:11.

patient care, the front line, and so on. How is that going? So, last

:30:12.:30:16.

parliament we realised around 18 billion of productivity and

:30:17.:30:19.

efficiency savings, we are realising more this year so we are on course

:30:20.:30:23.

to realise 3 billion this year, that is a quarter of a billion more than

:30:24.:30:28.

last year but all of us in the NHS knew the 22 billion would be a very

:30:29.:30:32.

stretching target and we are somewhat inevitably falling short.

:30:33.:30:36.

So it is 22 billion by 2,020. Roughly. That was the time. We are

:30:37.:30:47.

now into 2017. So how much of the 22 billion have you achieved? We

:30:48.:30:51.

realised around 3 billion last year and we will realise 3 billion this

:30:52.:30:55.

year, Court of billion more, 3.25 billion this year, so we are on

:30:56.:31:01.

course for 18-19,000,000,000. By the 2021 period? You are not that far

:31:02.:31:06.

away. The problem is the degree to which demand is going up. We have

:31:07.:31:09.

record demand over the winter period and that actually meant we have seen

:31:10.:31:14.

more people than we have ever seen before but performance is still

:31:15.:31:18.

under real pressure. Let me come onto that. When you agreed on the 22

:31:19.:31:24.

billion efficiency savings plus some extra money from the government, I

:31:25.:31:28.

know there is a bit of an argument about how much that is actually

:31:29.:31:32.

worth, had you not factored in this extra demand that you saw coming

:31:33.:31:38.

over the next three or four years? Let's be very clear committee

:31:39.:31:42.

referred to Simon Stevens's forward view and we signed up to it but the

:31:43.:31:47.

22 billion was a process run at the centre of government by the

:31:48.:31:49.

Department of Health with its arms length bodies, NHS England and

:31:50.:31:53.

others and is not something that was consulted on with the NHS. But you

:31:54.:31:58.

signed up to it. We always said that the day that that Spending Review

:31:59.:32:04.

was announced, the idea that the NHS where customer demand goes up

:32:05.:32:07.

something like four or 5% every year, the idea that in the middle

:32:08.:32:10.

years of Parliament we would be able to provide the same level of service

:32:11.:32:15.

when we were only getting funding increases of 1.3%, 0.4% and 0.7%,

:32:16.:32:21.

and I can show you the press release we issued, we always said there was

:32:22.:32:25.

going to be a gap and that we would not be able to deliver what was

:32:26.:32:29.

required. The full 22 billion in other words? What we said to Simon

:32:30.:32:35.

Stevens at the Public Accounts Committee a few months ago, the NHS

:32:36.:32:39.

didn't get what it was asked for. Today the NHS, cope with the

:32:40.:32:45.

resources it has according to you. How much more does it need? Are

:32:46.:32:51.

reported is about 2017-18 and we estimate that what we are being

:32:52.:32:54.

asked to do, and again, Andrew, you clearly set it out in the package,

:32:55.:32:58.

we are a long way off the four-hour A target and a long way off the

:32:59.:33:03.

92%. The waiting times and operations. How much more do you

:33:04.:33:09.

need? And we are making up a ?900 million deficit. If you take all of

:33:10.:33:11.

those into account we estimate you would need an extra ?3.5 billion

:33:12.:33:17.

next year in order to deliver all of those targets and eliminate the

:33:18.:33:21.

deficit. That would be 3.5 billion on top of what is already planned

:33:22.:33:25.

next year and that would be 3.5 billion repeated in the years to

:33:26.:33:30.

come too? Yes, Andrew it is important we should make an

:33:31.:33:33.

important distinction about the NHS versus other public services. When

:33:34.:33:38.

the last government, the last Labour government put extra money into the

:33:39.:33:41.

NHS it clearly said that in return for that it would establish some

:33:42.:33:46.

standards in the NHS Constitution, the 95% A target we have talked

:33:47.:33:50.

about and the 92% elective surgery we have talked about. The trust we

:33:51.:33:55.

represent are very clear, they would want to realise those standards, but

:33:56.:33:59.

you can only do it if you pay for it. The problem is at the moment is

:34:00.:34:02.

we are in the longest and deepest financial squeeze in NHS history. As

:34:03.:34:07.

we have said, funding is only going up by 1% per year but every year

:34:08.:34:12.

just to stand still cost and demand go up by more than 4%. There is

:34:13.:34:18.

clearly a demand for more money. I think people watching this programme

:34:19.:34:21.

will think probably the NHS is going to have to get more money to meet

:34:22.:34:25.

the goals you have been given. I think they would also like to be

:34:26.:34:30.

sure that your Mac running the NHS as efficiently as it could be. We

:34:31.:34:34.

read this morning that trusts have got ?100 million of empty properties

:34:35.:34:39.

that cost 10 million to maintain, 36 office blocks are not being used,

:34:40.:34:44.

you have surplus land equivalent to 1800 football pitches. Yes, there

:34:45.:34:48.

are a number of things that we know in the NHS we need to do better but

:34:49.:34:54.

let me remind you, Andrew, in the last Parliament we realised ?18

:34:55.:34:57.

billion worth of cost improvement gains. We are going to realise

:34:58.:35:02.

another 3 billion this year, 0.25 billion more than last year so these

:35:03.:35:08.

things are being targeted. But having that surplus land, it is

:35:09.:35:11.

almost certainly in areas where there is a demand for housing.

:35:12.:35:17.

Absolutely. So why not release it for housing? You get the money, the

:35:18.:35:21.

people get their houses and its contribution and a signal that you

:35:22.:35:24.

are running NHS assets as efficiently as you can? Tell me if

:35:25.:35:29.

I'm going to too much detail for you. One of the reasons as to why

:35:30.:35:34.

our trusts are reluctant to realise those land sales is because there is

:35:35.:35:37.

an assumption that the money would go back to the Treasury and wouldn't

:35:38.:35:42.

benefit NHS trusts. You could make a deal, couldn't you? That's part of

:35:43.:35:45.

the conversation going on at the moment. The issue is that we would

:35:46.:35:49.

want to ensure that if we do release land, quite rightly the benefit,

:35:50.:35:53.

particularly in foundation trusts which are, as you will remember,

:35:54.:36:04.

deliberately autonomous organisations, that they should keep

:36:05.:36:06.

the benefit of those land sales. Have you raised that with the

:36:07.:36:08.

government? Yes we have. What did they say? They

:36:09.:36:19.

are in discussions of it. We heard somebody who moved from one job and

:36:20.:36:22.

then to another job and given a big salary and then almost ?200,000 as a

:36:23.:36:27.

payoff. There is a national mood for the NHS to get more money. But

:36:28.:36:31.

before you give anybody any more money you want to be sure that the

:36:32.:36:34.

money you have got already is being properly spent, which for us, is the

:36:35.:36:38.

patient at the end of the day. And yet there seem to be these enormous

:36:39.:36:43.

salaries and payoffs. I've worked in a FTSE 100 on the board of Her

:36:44.:36:50.

Majesty's Revenue and Customs and I have worked in large organisations.

:36:51.:36:52.

I can look you completely straight in the eye and tell you that the

:36:53.:36:56.

jobs that our hospital, community, mental health and ambulance chief

:36:57.:36:59.

Executives do are amongst the most complicated leadership roles I have

:37:00.:37:03.

ever seen. It doesn't seem to me to be unreasonable that in order to get

:37:04.:37:06.

the right quality of people we should pay an appropriate salary.

:37:07.:37:10.

The reality is the salaries are paid are not excessive when talking about

:37:11.:37:15.

managing budgets of over ?1 billion a year and talking about managing

:37:16.:37:18.

tens of thousands of staff. There was a doctor working as a locum that

:37:19.:37:26.

earned an extra ?375,000. One of the problems in the NHS is a mismatch

:37:27.:37:30.

between the number of staff we need and the number of staff coming

:37:31.:37:33.

through the pipeline. What is having to happen is if you want to keep a

:37:34.:37:38.

service going you have to use Mackem and agency staff. Even at that cost?

:37:39.:37:42.

You would not want to pay those amounts. But you are. The chief

:37:43.:37:48.

Executives's choice in those areas is giving the service open or

:37:49.:37:52.

employing a locum. I'm sure you could find a locum prepared to work

:37:53.:37:56.

for less than that. What indication, what hopes do you have of getting

:37:57.:38:02.

the extra ?3 billion? The government has been very clear, for the moment

:38:03.:38:07.

it wants to stick to the existing funding settlement it has agreed. So

:38:08.:38:11.

there was nothing in the budget. Can I finish by making one important

:38:12.:38:16.

point. Please, finish. This is the first time the NHS has said before

:38:17.:38:21.

the year has even started that we can't deliver on those standards. We

:38:22.:38:25.

believe, as do most people who work in the NHS, that the NHS is on a

:38:26.:38:30.

gradual slow decline. This is a very important inflection point to Mark,

:38:31.:38:34.

this is the first time before the financial year starts that we say we

:38:35.:38:37.

cannot meet the targets we are being asked to deliver and are in the NHS

:38:38.:38:42.

Constitution. We have run out of time. Chris Hopson, thank you for

:38:43.:38:43.

being with me. It's just gone 11:35am,

:38:44.:38:44.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:38:45.:38:46.

in Scotland who leave us now Coming up on the Sunday Politics

:38:47.:38:49.

here in the South West... Fishermen and Brexit -

:38:50.:39:05.

is it payback time? George Eustice and other ministers

:39:06.:39:10.

made a big play of fishing And I think they actually owe

:39:11.:39:13.

the fishing industry something. And for the next 20 minutes I'm

:39:14.:39:20.

joined by the Labour councillor and former MP Candy Atherton,

:39:21.:39:23.

and Farming and Fisheries Welcome, both of you,

:39:24.:39:25.

to the programme. The Chancellor's plan to increase

:39:26.:39:30.

National Insurance contributions from the self-employed survived

:39:31.:39:33.

for slightly less than a week in the face of opposition

:39:34.:39:36.

from Tory backbenchers. George, how did he get

:39:37.:39:39.

in such a mess over this? Look, a Budget, this

:39:40.:39:42.

can happen in Budgets. We all remember the pasty

:39:43.:39:46.

tax of a few years ago. It's one of the problems

:39:47.:39:48.

with a Budget, because there is a secrecy around them and then

:39:49.:39:53.

they are launched in Sometimes there is a bad

:39:54.:39:55.

reaction to them. I think in this one,

:39:56.:39:58.

what they have reflected on, given the fact there was opposition

:39:59.:40:01.

from a lot of our own backbenchers, given there was a manifesto

:40:02.:40:05.

commitment not to raise National Insurance -

:40:06.:40:07.

although it meant the class one National Insurance,

:40:08.:40:09.

not the self-employed one - they have taken the view that

:40:10.:40:12.

if they can't get it through Parliament,

:40:13.:40:15.

they should revisit this. That's what they are doing and

:40:16.:40:16.

that's what Parliament exists for. Candy, you did enjoy this,

:40:17.:40:19.

it appears, rather. But did Labour do enough as

:40:20.:40:21.

opposition, because the newspapers did seem to pick up on the fact that

:40:22.:40:25.

really it was the Tory backbenchers, And I of course have been calling

:40:26.:40:29.

on Tory backbenchers But we really didn't need

:40:30.:40:33.

to do anything this week. The Tories were quite capable

:40:34.:40:38.

of doing their own omnishambles. When you get these sorts

:40:39.:40:40.

of decisions, you just have to look at it and listen to Parliament

:40:41.:40:47.

and listen to your own backbenchers. The Chancellor now has a chance

:40:48.:40:50.

to look at it again and he will come back in the Autumn Statement

:40:51.:40:56.

with some revised plans. I think that's

:40:57.:40:58.

the right thing to do. That's democracy in action

:40:59.:41:00.

and people often say.... Could school funding, George,

:41:01.:41:02.

be the next issue to force Ministers are bringing

:41:03.:41:07.

in what is supposed to be a fairer way of sharing cash between schools

:41:08.:41:11.

in different parts of the country. The existing system disadvantaged

:41:12.:41:14.

areas like here in the south-west. But many are expecting to lose

:41:15.:41:17.

funding, and the plans are facing opposition from within Tory

:41:18.:41:21.

ranks yet again. The government says the new formula

:41:22.:41:24.

will help pupils who get free school meals and those living

:41:25.:41:35.

in disadvantaged areas. You can't actually put something

:41:36.:41:41.

forward showing it to be a benefit, when it has such an adverse effect

:41:42.:41:44.

on our schools and young people. I do feel cross and very

:41:45.:41:49.

frustrated at the work and the job I'm expected to do,

:41:50.:41:53.

with ever increasing No school avoids having a real

:41:54.:41:56.

terms cut per pupil. Quite simply, the pot is not big

:41:57.:42:02.

enough to benefit everybody. Schools in Devon already receive

:42:03.:42:09.

less funding per pupil than other So when the government announced

:42:10.:42:14.

it was considering a new formula to allocate money, there was hope

:42:15.:42:20.

this might be addressed. Instead, this school

:42:21.:42:22.

in Budleigh Salterton If the Fairer Funding Formula comes

:42:23.:42:25.

into effect, my school loses 2.5% of its budget,

:42:26.:42:29.

which is quite substantial. In reality, what that will mean

:42:30.:42:32.

is I have to do my best to cut things back as far as possible

:42:33.:42:37.

so that I can avoid to try Councils in Devon, Dorset

:42:38.:42:46.

and Somerset were among those who wrote to the Prime Minister

:42:47.:42:50.

to voice their concerns. Quite bluntly, I don't know how

:42:51.:42:52.

they managed to draw up a formula that has absolutely upset everybody

:42:53.:42:57.

throughout the Shire counties. Typically lower funded areas,

:42:58.:43:01.

perhaps are not seeing the gains Under the new formula,

:43:02.:43:05.

the games will go to the most Under the new formula,

:43:06.:43:13.

the gains will go to the most Not so according to

:43:14.:43:16.

the authors of a new report. The benefit that those

:43:17.:43:19.

schools would otherwise receive are being swamped

:43:20.:43:21.

by wider funding pressures. They are not recognising

:43:22.:43:23.

rural deprivation and And our pupils are just

:43:24.:43:26.

as disadvantaged, but in The Department for Education says

:43:27.:43:31.

a consultation is still taking place on how the funding

:43:32.:43:39.

formula is calculated. Are we facing another policy

:43:40.:43:41.

climb-down here, do you think, because Tory backbenchers

:43:42.:43:51.

are already threatening It is what it says on the tin -

:43:52.:43:53.

it's a consultation. I think the thing to recognise is,

:43:54.:43:59.

school funding is at It's at a record level in absolute

:44:00.:44:02.

terms and in pounds per pupil. What we have tried to do with this

:44:03.:44:08.

funding formula is try to equalise Because there has been this historic

:44:09.:44:11.

unfairness in rural areas. That has been perpetuated

:44:12.:44:19.

year on year. Just to give some figures -

:44:20.:44:21.

we didn't in the piece. Places in London, you are talking

:44:22.:44:24.

?7000 or ?8,000 per pupil. In Plymouth and parts

:44:25.:44:27.

of Cornwall it's ?4000, And it's been like that

:44:28.:44:29.

for many, many years, under Labour governments,

:44:30.:44:32.

under Conservative governments. This is the first government

:44:33.:44:35.

that's changing it. That's what the consultation

:44:36.:44:39.

is about, it's about trying to get fairer, more equal payments

:44:40.:44:42.

per pupil, so that rural schools and schools in places like Cornwall

:44:43.:44:45.

start to get the same amount I have some concerns

:44:46.:44:48.

with the formula in that I think it doesn't do enough to recognise some

:44:49.:44:57.

of the deprivation we have in Cornwall, low income deprivation

:44:58.:44:59.

rather than some of the other types We mentioned there that Labour

:45:00.:45:02.

didn't bring it in when actually the money had been there had

:45:03.:45:11.

Tony Blair decided The money overall went

:45:12.:45:13.

to all the schools. The investment into schools

:45:14.:45:17.

in the Labour years was massive. It was easier to sort it out

:45:18.:45:23.

when there was more money, though. It might have been the time,

:45:24.:45:26.

but also we actually When Labour came into office,

:45:27.:45:29.

the toilets were outside. Labour didn't want to help rural

:45:30.:45:34.

areas, they wanted to leave They put the money into their pet

:45:35.:45:41.

projects, into the grammar schools and the free schools,

:45:42.:45:45.

and actually it's all schools The right time, as you say,

:45:46.:45:47.

to have done this, was when funding was going up, when there was a lot

:45:48.:45:52.

of money around. The time to do it is

:45:53.:45:55.

when you promise to do it. Whenever you do a review of any

:45:56.:45:58.

formula, and this is perhaps the reason some have doubts,

:45:59.:46:05.

is that there will be And there will be a lot of schools

:46:06.:46:07.

in Cornwall that are better off. I have schools in my

:46:08.:46:12.

constituency that do better. But there also some

:46:13.:46:14.

that are worse off. That's why I said we need

:46:15.:46:16.

to look again at some Is it one of those things

:46:17.:46:18.

that's impossible, George? For example, David Laws,

:46:19.:46:23.

the former Lib Dem Schools Minister, said that actually this is the kind

:46:24.:46:25.

of thing where there are no friends for the government

:46:26.:46:28.

because you will take money from some schools, and the others

:46:29.:46:31.

are not going to get quite enough Do you think it's an impossible

:46:32.:46:34.

position unless you pump in more Nothing is impossible,

:46:35.:46:39.

but is it politically difficult? But this is a government

:46:40.:46:44.

that is willing to do difficult That's why we are doing

:46:45.:46:48.

this consultation now even though money is tight,

:46:49.:46:52.

even though it's not an easy time to do it,

:46:53.:46:54.

it's the right thing to do, and that's why we

:46:55.:46:56.

are trying to do it. And the previous Chancellor has been

:46:57.:46:59.

wryly amused because he recognised it wasn't something that

:47:00.:47:01.

you want to do. The previous Chancellor was the one

:47:02.:47:03.

who committed to having this review. Because in the next fortnight,

:47:04.:47:06.

Theresa May will begin a formal Then she has to deliver on the many

:47:07.:47:10.

promises made to Brexit supporters, ranging from action on immigration

:47:11.:47:15.

to cuts in red tape and a better It could be a tall order

:47:16.:47:18.

as Tamsin Melville reports. BOB GELDOF: You are no

:47:19.:47:25.

fishermen's friend! Nigel, go back down the river,

:47:26.:47:28.

because you are up Few aspects of our EU membership

:47:29.:47:30.

have generated as much passion and controversy

:47:31.:47:36.

as the Common Fisheries Policy. It's all right for

:47:37.:47:39.

millionaires, mate! During the referendum debate

:47:40.:47:42.

the industry was divided. But in the event, fishing regions

:47:43.:47:44.

around the UK like Cornwall In the months since,

:47:45.:47:47.

warnings the industry, which produces 0.5% of the UK's GDP,

:47:48.:47:51.

might be marginalised George Eustice and other ministers

:47:52.:47:54.

made a big play of fishing I think they actually owe

:47:55.:48:00.

the fishing industry something. And a question mark over how

:48:01.:48:09.

deliverable the wish list is of better access to fishing

:48:10.:48:11.

grounds, markets and quotas in a post-Brexit Britain is leading

:48:12.:48:13.

to a strong warning. There will inevitably,

:48:14.:48:18.

and probably necessarily, be a negotiated agreement outside

:48:19.:48:21.

of the 12 mile limit, But we do not expect there to be

:48:22.:48:24.

the same degree of negotiation That's for the UK fishermen

:48:25.:48:30.

and the UK inshore fleet, it should be managed for the benefit

:48:31.:48:37.

of those guys. And anything less than complete

:48:38.:48:39.

exclusivity will be seen as a betrayal, which isn't too

:48:40.:48:43.

strong a word. Making sure that fishermen do get

:48:44.:48:45.

a good deal is also key for this prominent businesswoman Brexiteer,

:48:46.:48:49.

who back in June was celebrating. With two years of negotiations

:48:50.:48:54.

about to get under way, still a lot of optimism about less

:48:55.:49:02.

red tape for business I don't suppose we will get

:49:03.:49:05.

everything, but I'm willing to take a gamble on the fact is that

:49:06.:49:12.

if we take back control here, we can make decisions here,

:49:13.:49:17.

but local funding is held here and we get the funding

:49:18.:49:20.

in the right places But a message to the government

:49:21.:49:22.

to sort out the sticking Because they are making it

:49:23.:49:28.

about immigration and I don't think anybody in Cornwall voted for Brexit

:49:29.:49:32.

over immigration It's more about taking control,

:49:33.:49:36.

taking back control. The constituency of St Austell

:49:37.:49:44.

and Newquay had the highest proportion of people voting

:49:45.:49:47.

for Brexit in Cornwall, with more than six out

:49:48.:49:50.

of ten plumping for leave. Let's find out what people

:49:51.:49:53.

here in St Austell are thinking No.

:49:54.:49:56.

No. The sooner they do it, the better.

:49:57.:50:01.

We're pleased, yeah. We need to shut our

:50:02.:50:03.

borders off as well. It's true, though.

:50:04.:50:05.

Yeah. Immigrant-gration,

:50:06.:50:09.

that is a problem. The hospitals is on its knees

:50:10.:50:11.

because of it all, So do you think the UK Government

:50:12.:50:14.

is going to get what you wanted? Otherwise there'll be hell

:50:15.:50:21.

out, wouldn't there? You know, all these people

:50:22.:50:25.

coming into the country and our National Health as it is,

:50:26.:50:28.

maybe if that stops... I'm not on about the people

:50:29.:50:32.

that are here to leave and go, but the people

:50:33.:50:35.

who are actually coming in. But there was that pledge,

:50:36.:50:39.

wasn't there, on the buses Do you think that was right,

:50:40.:50:41.

is that going to happen? A few doubts, but it

:50:42.:50:47.

seems hopes remains high It's over now to the

:50:48.:50:56.

government to deliver. A lot was made in the campaign

:50:57.:51:00.

before the referendum on the fishing industry and how we can claim

:51:01.:51:09.

back our waters. Why haven't you done it,

:51:10.:51:11.

because you can do this before triggering Article

:51:12.:51:13.

50, can't you? There are two separate

:51:14.:51:15.

but linked issues. There's something called

:51:16.:51:20.

the 1964 London Convention, that predates our membership

:51:21.:51:23.

of the EU, and that gives certain countries access

:51:24.:51:25.

to the 6-12 miles zone. We have been very clear,

:51:26.:51:29.

I have been consistent throughout, that we are looking very closely

:51:30.:51:32.

at this issue. It is possible to revoke our

:51:33.:51:35.

membership of that convention We've not yet made the final

:51:36.:51:37.

decision, but I have been very clear that we are looking very

:51:38.:51:46.

closely at this. Because there is a strong case

:51:47.:51:48.

for it, particularly If you could exclude some

:51:49.:51:50.

of the Dutch and French vessels from our 6-12 mile zone then

:51:51.:51:55.

you would give more opportunities to some of those inshore vessels

:51:56.:51:58.

who often struggle to get We heard Paul Trebilcock there,

:51:59.:52:01.

on behalf of a lot of fishermen, saying anything less than bringing

:52:02.:52:05.

in the 12 mile exclusion zone He said that wasn't

:52:06.:52:08.

too strong a word. Look, I deal with fishermen a lot,

:52:09.:52:12.

and they often assume the worst. I have said all the same things

:52:13.:52:15.

since the decision to leave the EU I have been clear that we will

:52:16.:52:22.

still fish sustainably. I have been clear that UN law

:52:23.:52:26.

will be the new legal baseline. That's what Norway has,

:52:27.:52:29.

it's what the Faroe Islands have. But we will still have some

:52:30.:52:34.

kind of quota regime. We will still have to control

:52:35.:52:37.

fishing in some way. I was honest about that

:52:38.:52:39.

in the campaign and I've not said anything different

:52:40.:52:42.

since the campaign. Candy, you seem like

:52:43.:52:44.

you are agreeing here. Is it time to be patient now,

:52:45.:52:46.

should we not jump the gun? It would be an ironic irony,

:52:47.:52:49.

an irony, if they were actually the ones who were worst hit

:52:50.:53:04.

as a result of Brexit. If we have a really bad

:53:05.:53:07.

Brexit, then my fears But where there has to be

:53:08.:53:09.

negotiations, it's not It was a nonsense when it was said

:53:10.:53:13.

in the campaign, as now people And you detected that in the piece,

:53:14.:53:18.

people are starting to realise that actually, it's not going to be

:53:19.:53:22.

all this money to the NHS. It's not going to be all these great

:53:23.:53:25.

goodies coming down. On fisheries, I was really clear

:53:26.:53:28.

throughout that there would always still have

:53:29.:53:31.

to be international negotiation. There will be annual negotiation

:53:32.:53:34.

with the EU, with Norway, the Faroe Islands and Iceland,

:53:35.:53:37.

just as we have now. How farmers, something close

:53:38.:53:40.

to your heart, George, get workers that they need

:53:41.:53:44.

after we leave. The government says

:53:45.:53:46.

that the industry will recruit more unemployed British people rather

:53:47.:53:48.

than relying on so many I think it must be part

:53:49.:53:51.

of our long-term solution that the sector becomes less reliant

:53:52.:53:58.

on migrant labour and And the government reforms

:53:59.:54:01.

to the benefit system, for example, is aimed at encouraging more people

:54:02.:54:06.

back into the workforce. These are jobs that traditionally

:54:07.:54:09.

people in the UK have done, and there are opportunities,

:54:10.:54:12.

I think, for British people in many cases,

:54:13.:54:15.

to take some of these jobs. Changes to the benefit system

:54:16.:54:19.

are part of that picture of incentivising people

:54:20.:54:21.

to enter the workforce. You were sitting next

:54:22.:54:26.

to the Immigration Minister there, I also gave evidence

:54:27.:54:29.

to that committee. It all sounds fair

:54:30.:54:33.

enough, doesn't it? If there are jobs, and local people

:54:34.:54:37.

can do them, why would you bring in European workers,

:54:38.:54:40.

and why wouldn't you give those people those jobs

:54:41.:54:42.

and take them off benefits? Because the businesses are saying

:54:43.:54:44.

that the right people are not necessarily those who are unemployed

:54:45.:54:47.

who we need to get into the jobs. And are we going to be saying

:54:48.:54:50.

to 65-year-old women who are not retiring until they are 67,

:54:51.:54:53.

that they have to go out and pick Have you seen the modern

:54:54.:54:56.

slavery law, George? We need workers to help us

:54:57.:55:03.

manage our health service, everywhere you look,

:55:04.:55:09.

and particularly in agriculture. Stopping you there, what do you mean

:55:10.:55:13.

about modern slavery? I do believe that if you say

:55:14.:55:18.

to people, you can eat, you can have a house,

:55:19.:55:22.

a home, a roof over your head, but you've got to work absolutely

:55:23.:55:26.

in this field picking cauliflowers, then I think that's not

:55:27.:55:29.

a particularly the way this I don't quite understand this

:55:30.:55:33.

argument that it's not modern slavery to have migrant labour doing

:55:34.:55:40.

roles that you don't think people And if you listen to

:55:41.:55:43.

the whole evidence session - it was a very long session,

:55:44.:55:49.

three hours - there were two things One is, there will still be

:55:50.:55:52.

a need for migrant labour. The important thing is,

:55:53.:55:56.

having controlled migration doesn't mean pulling up the drawbridge

:55:57.:55:58.

and stopping all migration. It simply means exactly what it

:55:59.:56:00.

says, that you can control it. And we will have the ability to have

:56:01.:56:03.

short-term work permits to allow some people to come

:56:04.:56:06.

here to do seasonal work. We are looking at the detail

:56:07.:56:08.

of exactly what we would put Will it mean that, as was put

:56:09.:56:12.

in the papers, I know one piece where it said you end up having

:56:13.:56:17.

immigration workers to do the picking, but maybe not

:56:18.:56:19.

the doctors, if you are limiting it You could, or indeed,

:56:20.:56:22.

in the case of agriculture, and this is the context

:56:23.:56:25.

about getting more local people into agriculture,

:56:26.:56:28.

there are roles, full-time roles, tractor driver rolls,

:56:29.:56:30.

irrigation managers, agronomists. Other full-time farming roles

:56:31.:56:31.

where actually the more progressive people in the farming industry do

:56:32.:56:34.

tell me they could probably do better to get local people

:56:35.:56:37.

from local schools taking Surely if those people

:56:38.:56:39.

were available, they would be doing it now for those jobs you are saying

:56:40.:56:53.

are slightly more skilled? No, what I think actually a lot

:56:54.:56:56.

of them will admit is that it has been too easy just to rely

:56:57.:57:00.

on migrant labour and have The farmers, it's been

:57:01.:57:03.

too easy for farmers? Yes, and actually this is where,

:57:04.:57:10.

there is a very interesting discussion to be had

:57:11.:57:13.

about whether we have, yes, some permits in a controlled way

:57:14.:57:15.

for seasonal labour where we can't But I think the quid pro quo

:57:16.:57:18.

for that should be farm businesses trying a bit harder to get girls

:57:19.:57:22.

and boys from local schools, when they leave at 16,

:57:23.:57:24.

entering as apprentices. Candy makes the point that it's

:57:25.:57:26.

a young person's job, You couldn't be expected to have

:57:27.:57:29.

arthritis or some kind of issue, the elderly, and doing that

:57:30.:57:33.

sort of job. And also do farmers

:57:34.:57:35.

necessarily want certain types It tends to be, although there

:57:36.:57:37.

are older people who are actually very fit and a lot of them

:57:38.:57:42.

want to go and pick fruit. Often people who have retired

:57:43.:57:45.

want to supplement their pension with a bit of extra income,

:57:46.:57:56.

they do actually enjoy There are examples

:57:57.:57:59.

of this at all farms. Candy, can Labour now

:58:00.:58:08.

do anything to change the course of Brexit,

:58:09.:58:10.

do you think? For those who are the 48ers,

:58:11.:58:12.

of which I was one, strongly in favour of Remain,

:58:13.:58:17.

I hope that this hard Brexit which is a road

:58:18.:58:21.

we seem to be following.... Your party is allowing Article 50

:58:22.:58:23.

to be triggered, isn't it? It's probably above my pay grade,

:58:24.:58:27.

but I would say this, that I strongly hope that we don't

:58:28.:58:33.

put up the barriers, that we are an open country,

:58:34.:58:36.

that we don't end up Any opposition, it's tough

:58:37.:58:39.

being in opposition. It's a lot easier to be

:58:40.:58:50.

in opposition than to I would like to see us really

:58:51.:58:53.

holding this government to account and make sure that we have a Brexit

:58:54.:58:58.

that doesn't leave this It's time for our regular round-up

:58:59.:59:01.

of the political week in 60 seconds. Devon and Cornwall police are one

:59:02.:59:10.

of 12 forces to send files to the Crown Prosecution Service

:59:11.:59:14.

as part of enquiries into the Conservatives'

:59:15.:59:18.

general election expenses. As well as the enquiry

:59:19.:59:21.

into local spending, the Tories have been fined a record

:59:22.:59:25.

?70,000 for failing to report Businesses have voiced concern

:59:26.:59:28.

at a big fall in the number of European Union students wanting

:59:29.:59:38.

to study in the south-west. The number applying

:59:39.:59:40.

to the University of Exeter has The UK must be seen to be

:59:41.:59:42.

open to people from all Campaigners welcomed a military

:59:43.:59:49.

Appeal Court ruling that a Royal Marine Alexander Blackman

:59:50.:59:53.

didn't murder a wounded Taliban fighter, but was guilty

:59:54.:59:55.

of the lesser charge of manslaughter on the grounds of

:59:56.:59:59.

diminished responsibility. And there were more protests over

:00:00.:00:05.

the temporary closure of beds at Holsworthy hospital,

:00:06.:00:07.

and fears that the loss of beds It's such an important thing,

:00:08.:00:10.

a centre of the community, really. STUDIO: Right, let's look then

:00:11.:00:22.

at election spending. Is it possible, George,

:00:23.:00:24.

that at the end of this process and investigation,

:00:25.:00:28.

we might have to see some I don't think that's

:00:29.:00:30.

likely, and I don't think What's happened here,

:00:31.:00:35.

is there is an investigation They are looking at all of the seats

:00:36.:00:41.

where volunteers went It shouldn't have happened,

:00:42.:00:45.

though, should it? The Labour Party at the last

:00:46.:00:51.

election bussed in activists from Plymouth for some

:00:52.:00:57.

of their campaign days. You don't force people to declare

:00:58.:00:59.

the petrol if they drive from one But we were not hauled

:01:00.:01:04.

into the High Court having to produce our receipts

:01:05.:01:09.

and our expenditure. The Conservative Party have

:01:10.:01:11.

left your MPs out to dry. I think the way they are behaving

:01:12.:01:13.

and the way they have The truth here is that this

:01:14.:01:16.

was a national expense. The party said they were going

:01:17.:01:24.

to declare it nationally, so they told all those MPs not

:01:25.:01:29.

to declare it locally. So local MPs, it's do with the way

:01:30.:01:33.

it was organised nationally. It's a national expense, and that's

:01:34.:01:37.

the way it has been accepted. It was a national expense

:01:38.:01:40.

and declared nationally, It's coming up to the end

:01:41.:01:42.

of our programme, Sunday Politics Thanks to both of my

:01:43.:01:49.

guests, Candy and George. you both. Say goodbye. Goodbye. Back

:01:50.:01:51.

to you. So, can George Osborne stay

:01:52.:02:00.

on as a member of Parliament Will Conservative backbenchers force

:02:01.:02:03.

a Government re-think And is Theresa May about to cap gas

:02:04.:02:07.

and electricity prices? Whose idea was that first of all?

:02:08.:02:21.

They are all questions for the Week Ahead to.

:02:22.:02:26.

Let's start with the story that is too much fun to miss, on Friday it

:02:27.:02:31.

was announced the former Chancellor would be the new editor of London's

:02:32.:02:35.

Evening Standard newspaper, a position he will take up in mid-May

:02:36.:02:42.

on a salary of ?200,000 for four days a week.

:02:43.:02:46.

But Mr Osborne has said he will not be stepping down as MP

:02:47.:02:50.

for Tatton in Cheshire, a job he's held since 2001,

:02:51.:02:52.

Alongside these duties, he's also chairman of

:02:53.:02:55.

While being committed to one day a week at Black Rock,

:02:56.:03:01.

an American asset management firm - a part-time role that earns him

:03:02.:03:04.

Then he's polishing his academic credentials, as a fellow

:03:05.:03:09.

at the McCain Institute, an American thinktank,

:03:10.:03:11.

And finally as a member of the Washington Speaker's Bureau,

:03:12.:03:19.

he also earns his keep as an after-dinner speaker, banking

:03:20.:03:25.

around ?750,000 since last summer.

:03:26.:03:30.

So there you go. Nice little earners if you can get them. The problem,

:03:31.:03:39.

though, is he has put second jobs on the agenda and lots of his fellow

:03:40.:03:43.

MPs are not happy because they have got second jobs but not making that

:03:44.:03:48.

kind of money. No, and a lot of MPs on both sides actually are unhappy

:03:49.:03:52.

about it exactly for those reasons. I find it a very interesting

:03:53.:03:57.

appointment. We have got these people on the centre and centre

:03:58.:04:01.

right of politics who have been used to power since 1997, they have been

:04:02.:04:05.

on the airwaves today, Tony Blair, Nick Clegg, George Osborne, and they

:04:06.:04:10.

are all seeking other platforms now because power has moved elsewhere.

:04:11.:04:15.

So Tony Blair is setting up this new foundation, Nick Clegg refused to

:04:16.:04:18.

condemn George Osborne, Tony Blair praised the appointment. They are

:04:19.:04:25.

all searching for new platforms. They might have overestimated the

:04:26.:04:28.

degree to which this will be a huge influential platform. The standard

:04:29.:04:34.

was very pro-Tory at the 2015 election but London voted Labour, it

:04:35.:04:39.

was pro-Zac Goldsmith but they elected Sadiq Khan. It might be

:04:40.:04:42.

overestimating the degree to which this is a hugely influential paper.

:04:43.:04:48.

But I can see why it attracts him as a platform when all these platforms

:04:49.:04:53.

have disappeared, eg power and government. All of these people who

:04:54.:04:59.

used to be in power are quietly getting together again, Mr Blair on

:05:00.:05:03.

television this morning, George Osborne not only filling his bank

:05:04.:05:06.

account but now in charge of London's most important newspaper,

:05:07.:05:11.

Nick Clegg out today not saying Brexit was a done deal, waiting to

:05:12.:05:17.

see what happens, even John Major was wheeled out again today in the

:05:18.:05:21.

Mail on Sunday. They are all playing for position. I half expect David

:05:22.:05:25.

Cameron to turn up as features editor on The Evening Standard.

:05:26.:05:32.

Brexit and breakfast! With Mr Clegg, did he not? I do not think this is

:05:33.:05:37.

sustainable for George Osborne, I worked at The Evening Standard and I

:05:38.:05:40.

was there for three years, I know what the hours are like for a humble

:05:41.:05:44.

journalist, never mind the editor. If he thinks he can get at 4am

:05:45.:05:48.

everyday to be in the offices at 5am to oversee the splash, manage

:05:49.:05:52.

everything in the way and edited should he is in cloud cuckoo land.

:05:53.:05:57.

What this says to people is there is a kind of feel of soft corruption

:05:58.:06:01.

about public life here, where you see what you can get away with. He

:06:02.:06:05.

thinks he can brazen this out and maybe he can but what kind of

:06:06.:06:08.

message does that send to people about how seriously people take the

:06:09.:06:14.

role of being an MP? He must have known. He applied for the job. The

:06:15.:06:19.

Russian owner didn't approach him, he approached Lebedev, the

:06:20.:06:24.

proprietor, for it. He must have calculated there would be some

:06:25.:06:27.

kickback. I wonder if he realised there would be quite the kickback

:06:28.:06:32.

there has been. I think that's probably right. This hasn't finished

:06:33.:06:36.

yet, by the way, this will go on and on. How on earth does George Osborne

:06:37.:06:41.

cover the budget in the autumn? Big budget, lots of physical changes and

:06:42.:06:45.

tax rises to deal with the messages out of this week. You can see

:06:46.:06:50.

already, Theresa May budget crashes. It could be worse. She's useless!

:06:51.:06:57.

Or, worse than that, me, brilliant budget, terrible newspaper, I've

:06:58.:07:02.

never buying it again. He has hoisted his own petard. He has not

:07:03.:07:06.

bought it properly through. It's a something interesting about his own

:07:07.:07:12.

future calculations, if he wants to stay on as an MP in 2020 and be

:07:13.:07:16.

Prime Minister as he has or was wanted to be he has got to find a

:07:17.:07:20.

new seat. How do you go into an association and say I should be an

:07:21.:07:23.

MP, I can do it for at least four hours Purdy after editing The

:07:24.:07:28.

Evening Standard, making a big speech and telling Black Rock how to

:07:29.:07:35.

make a big profit. The feature pages have to be approved for the next day

:07:36.:07:39.

and feature pages are aware the editor gets to make their mark. The

:07:40.:07:43.

news is the news. The feature is what concerns you, what he is in

:07:44.:07:48.

your bonnet. That defines the newspaper, doesn't it? It is not

:07:49.:07:54.

over yet. Too much 101 on newspapers. And Haatheq at.

:07:55.:08:00.

School funding, the consultation period ends, it has been a tricky

:08:01.:08:07.

one for the government, some areas losing. I guess we are seeing this

:08:08.:08:13.

through the prism of the National Insurance contributions now, it is a

:08:14.:08:18.

small majority, if Tory MPs are unhappy she may not get her way.

:08:19.:08:23.

Talking to backbench MPs who are unhappy the feeling is it is not

:08:24.:08:27.

going to go ahead in the proposed form that the consultation has been

:08:28.:08:33.

on. No 10 will definitely have to move on this. It is unclear whether

:08:34.:08:37.

they will scrap it completely, or will they bring in something

:08:38.:08:40.

possibly like a base level, floor level pupil funding below which you

:08:41.:08:46.

can't go? You would then still need to find some extra money. So there

:08:47.:08:50.

are no easy solutions on this but what is clear it is not going to go

:08:51.:08:54.

ahead in its current form. Parents have been getting letters across the

:08:55.:08:57.

country in England about what this will mean for teachers and so on in

:08:58.:09:02.

certain schools. It's not just a matter of the education Department,

:09:03.:09:07.

the schools, or the teachers and Tory backbenchers. Parents are being

:09:08.:09:12.

mobilised on this. The point of the new funding formula is to allocate

:09:13.:09:15.

more money to the more disadvantaged. That means schools in

:09:16.:09:19.

the more prosperous suburbs are going to lose money. Budget cuts on

:09:20.:09:23.

schools which are already struggling. It comes down again to

:09:24.:09:27.

be huge problem, the ever smaller fiscal pool, ever greater demands,

:09:28.:09:32.

NHS, social care, education as well, adding to Theresa May and Phillip

:09:33.:09:36.

Hammond's enormous problems. Here is an interesting issue, Steve. There

:09:37.:09:41.

was a labour Leader of the Opposition that once suggested

:09:42.:09:46.

perhaps given these huge energy companies which seemed to be good at

:09:47.:09:50.

passing on energy rises but not so good at cutting energy prices when

:09:51.:09:53.

it falls, that perhaps we should put a cap on them until at least we

:09:54.:09:58.

study how the market goes. This was obviously ludicrous Marxism and

:09:59.:10:03.

quite rightly knocked down by the Conservatives, except that Mrs May

:10:04.:10:08.

is now talking about putting a cap on energy prices. Yes, I think if it

:10:09.:10:12.

wasn't for Brexit we would focus much more on Theresa May's Ed

:10:13.:10:16.

Miliband streak. Whether this translates into policies, let us

:10:17.:10:21.

see. That bit we don't know. That bit we don't know but in terms of

:10:22.:10:25.

argument her speech to the Conservative conference on Friday

:10:26.:10:28.

was about the third or fourth time where she said as part of the

:10:29.:10:34.

speech, let's focus on the good that government can do, including in

:10:35.:10:37.

intervening in markets, exactly in the way that he used to argue. As

:10:38.:10:42.

you say, we await the policy consequences of that. She seems more

:10:43.:10:46.

cautious in terms of policy in fermentation. But in terms of the

:10:47.:10:51.

industrial strategy, in terms of implying intervention in certain

:10:52.:10:54.

markets, there is a kind of Milibandesque streak. And there

:10:55.:10:58.

comes a time when she has to walk the walk as well as talk the talk.

:10:59.:11:04.

They talk a lot about the just about managing, just about managing face

:11:05.:11:09.

rising food bills because of the lower pound and face rising fuel

:11:10.:11:13.

bills because of the rise in oil and in other commodities. One of the two

:11:14.:11:20.

things you could do to help the just about managing is to cut their food

:11:21.:11:23.

bills and the second would be to cut their fuel bills. At some stage she

:11:24.:11:26.

has to do something for them. We don't know what is going to happen

:11:27.:11:30.

to food bills under Brexit, that could become a really serious issue.

:11:31.:11:34.

They could abolish tariffs. There has been a lot of talking the talk

:11:35.:11:38.

and big announcements put out and not following through so I agree

:11:39.:11:41.

with you on that but lots of Tory MPs will have a big problem on

:11:42.:11:55.

this and the principle of continually talking about

:11:56.:11:57.

interfering in markets, whether it's on executive pay, whether it is on

:11:58.:12:00.

energy, at a time when Britain needs to send out this message to the

:12:01.:12:03.

world in their view, in the view of Brexit supporting MPs, that we are

:12:04.:12:06.

open for business and the government is not about poking around and doing

:12:07.:12:08.

this kind of thing. Of course, you could argue there is not a problem

:12:09.:12:11.

in the market for energy, it is a malfunctioning market that doesn't

:12:12.:12:13.

operate like a free market should, so that provides even Adam Smith,

:12:14.:12:17.

the inventor of market economics would have said on that basis you

:12:18.:12:21.

should intervene. I was in Cardiff to listen to Theresa May's latest

:12:22.:12:25.

explanation for doing this. By the way, we've been waiting nine months,

:12:26.:12:29.

this was one of her big ideas. You are right, let's see a bit of the

:12:30.:12:33.

meat, please. My newspaper has been calling for some pretty hefty

:12:34.:12:37.

government action on this for quite some time. For the just about

:12:38.:12:42.

managings? Yes and specifically to sort out an energy market dominated

:12:43.:12:46.

by the big six, which is manifestly ripping people off left, right and

:12:47.:12:50.

centre. Theresa May's argument in Cardiff on Friday morning which, by

:12:51.:12:54.

the way, went down like a proverbial windbreak at the proverbial funeral

:12:55.:12:59.

because Tories... You know what I mean Andrew, the big hand coming

:13:00.:13:03.

into from the state telling businesses what to do. They went

:13:04.:13:06.

very quiet indeed. They were having saving the union and Nato but there

:13:07.:13:10.

was no clapping for that. The point being, this is what she needs to do

:13:11.:13:15.

to prove her assault, to prove those first words on the steps of Downing

:13:16.:13:20.

Street. We await to see the actions taken.

:13:21.:13:22.

On that unusual agreement we will leave it there. The Daily Politics

:13:23.:13:30.

will be back on BBC Two tomorrow at noon and everyday during the week.

:13:31.:13:33.

And I'll be here on BBC One next Sunday at 11am.

:13:34.:13:35.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:36.:14:19.

I've not given myself that time to sit down

:14:20.:14:25.

Two years ago, former England captain Rio Ferdinand lost his wife

:14:26.:14:29.

Andrew Neil and Lucie Fisher with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

As the NHS in England warns of a severe financial crisis, Andrew talks to Chris Hopson, head of NHS Providers. He is also joined by former Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg MP and Labour Party campaign and elections chair Andrew Gwynne MP.

On the political panel are the Sun's Tom Newton Dunn and journalists Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.