Browse content similar to 26/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone, | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
but do the security services have the resources and | :00:50. | :00:51. | |
We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons. | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
In the South West: and the party's | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
A senior Tory claims we needa special tax to pay for the NHS. | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
And should the Government bring in tighter controls | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political | :01:19. | :01:32. | |
panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme. | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack | :01:42. | :01:43. | |
The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament, | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 - | :01:48. | :01:49. | |
one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital. | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
His target was the very heart of our democracy, | :01:54. | :01:55. | |
the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers. | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity | :02:06. | :02:06. | |
at the time, the outcome could have been even worse. | :02:07. | :02:15. | |
Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we | :02:16. | :02:23. | |
be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and | :02:36. | :02:37. | |
national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack, | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to | :03:13. | :03:19. | |
the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions. | :03:20. | :03:21. | |
Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal, | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
imagine the emergency services and local people, international | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our | :04:28. | :04:34. | |
Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice. | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
that is attacking. OK, thank you for that. | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
So, four days after the attack, what more do we know | :04:50. | :04:51. | |
The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation. | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
According to a police timeline, that's how long it took | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster | :05:06. | :05:07. | |
to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter... | :05:08. | :05:14. | |
to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster. | :05:18. | :05:28. | |
The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying: | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
"We would like to express our gratitude to the people | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
who were with Keith in his last moments and who were | :05:37. | :05:38. | |
There was nothing more you could have done, | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone." | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him. | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
There should be no place for terrorists to hide. | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp, | :06:04. | :06:06. | |
and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
place for terrorists to communicate with each other. | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing, | :06:17. | :06:25. | |
legally, through warrantry, but in this situation | :06:26. | :06:27. | |
we need to make sure that our intelligence services | :06:28. | :06:29. | |
have the ability to get into situations like encrypted | :06:30. | :06:31. | |
She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
..not the policy implications that will echo the loudest. | :06:42. | :06:49. | |
We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol, | :06:50. | :06:51. | |
the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright. | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I | :06:58. | :07:05. | |
can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation, | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80 | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year, | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made | :07:32. | :07:40. | |
available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do | :07:41. | :07:42. | |
we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well. | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we? | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels, | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
least the first indications from what police are saying in London, | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators, | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board, | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a | :11:13. | :11:15. | |
more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is | :11:16. | :11:22. | |
certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of | :11:49. | :11:50. | |
communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much. | :11:56. | :11:57. | |
Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to | :12:12. | :12:19. | |
be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get | :12:41. | :12:49. | |
reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
security director, and just as security matters in parliament are | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate, | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have | :13:39. | :13:41. | |
actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
security authorities and in particular for the police and direct | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
position to comment on the details of the operation but my | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
understanding is that the number of people available is what the police | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able | :14:49. | :14:55. | |
to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody | :15:06. | :15:07. | |
involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time. | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it. | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
changes need to be made in light of that. | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence | :16:03. | :16:10. | |
Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this | :16:40. | :16:48. | |
simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader | :16:54. | :17:01. | |
of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions | :17:26. | :17:32. | |
should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed | :18:05. | :18:16. | |
guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing. | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on | :19:16. | :19:21. | |
Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts | :19:31. | :19:37. | |
of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational | :19:58. | :20:05. | |
mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an | :20:06. | :20:08. | |
agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies | :20:09. | :20:15. | |
that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police | :20:16. | :20:18. | |
cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that? | :20:29. | :20:35. | |
Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is | :21:03. | :21:04. | |
possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The | :21:05. | :21:21. | |
question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the | :21:22. | :21:23. | |
subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel? | :21:24. | :21:26. | |
Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a | :21:57. | :22:04. | |
substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50 | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum | :22:37. | :22:44. | |
there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The | :22:53. | :23:03. | |
Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on | :23:26. | :23:31. | |
Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities | :23:53. | :23:59. | |
Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another | :24:11. | :24:17. | |
regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European | :24:23. | :24:33. | |
regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the | :24:52. | :24:57. | |
Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary | :24:58. | :25:00. | |
legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision. | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
David Lidington, thank you for being with us. | :25:26. | :25:27. | |
So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell. | :25:28. | :25:29. | |
He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party | :25:30. | :25:31. | |
almost three years ago, but yesterday announced | :25:32. | :25:33. | |
that he was quitting to sit as an independent. | :25:34. | :25:35. | |
His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying, | :25:36. | :25:37. | |
"Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster". | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as | :25:45. | :25:46. | |
Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign. | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage | :26:01. | :26:02. | |
accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances | :26:03. | :26:04. | |
of being awarded a knighthood, writing that, | :26:05. | :26:06. | |
Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday, | :26:07. | :26:14. | |
Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU. | :26:15. | :26:16. | |
Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
decided that I will be leaving Ukip." | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014 | :26:23. | :26:24. | |
he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election. | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
"I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election. | :26:31. | :26:38. | |
We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall. | :26:39. | :26:45. | |
Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your | :26:46. | :26:54. | |
only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage | :27:11. | :27:13. | |
certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a | :27:27. | :27:33. | |
more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he | :27:34. | :27:36. | |
expected to be pushed out your national executive committee | :27:37. | :27:39. | |
tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to | :27:40. | :27:42. | |
answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did | :28:04. | :28:11. | |
jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear | :28:16. | :28:23. | |
is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks, | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party, | :28:39. | :28:46. | |
doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to | :28:47. | :29:01. | |
rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the | :29:40. | :29:42. | |
party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have | :29:57. | :30:03. | |
been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No, | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past, | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be | :30:27. | :30:36. | |
interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr | :31:10. | :31:12. | |
Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the | :31:13. | :31:29. | |
problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate | :31:30. | :31:30. | |
communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in | :31:34. | :31:36. | |
Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But, | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme | :31:40. | :31:42. | |
vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to | :31:59. | :32:05. | |
go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people | :32:06. | :32:07. | |
in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon. | :32:11. | :32:17. | |
Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio. | :32:18. | :32:24. | |
Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are | :32:25. | :32:30. | |
becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here, | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants | :33:01. | :33:08. | |
to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the | :33:28. | :33:30. | |
opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not | :33:31. | :33:36. | |
always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back, | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you | :33:46. | :33:52. | |
are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won, | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the | :34:12. | :34:14. | |
European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge. | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas | :34:55. | :35:02. | |
I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history | :35:03. | :35:05. | |
proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They | :35:26. | :35:32. | |
freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like | :35:46. | :35:51. | |
Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten | :36:08. | :36:10. | |
years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam, | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of | :36:45. | :36:47. | |
thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen, | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past. | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself | :37:21. | :37:29. | |
with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree | :38:14. | :38:16. | |
with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into | :38:17. | :38:25. | |
2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
see. Very well! Thank you both very much. | :38:38. | :38:54. | |
Hello, I'm Martyn Oates, coming up on the Sunday Politics | :38:55. | :38:56. | |
Is it time for a special tax to pay for the NHS? | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
I think there's much more support for these kinds of taxes if people | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
So I do actually think a hypothecated tax is a good idea. | :39:08. | :39:14. | |
And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by the Exeter MP | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
Ben Bradshaw and by Neil Parish, the MP for Tiverton and Honiton. | :39:18. | :39:20. | |
Last week's terrorist attack on Westminster has left many people | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
wondering what more can be done to improve security. | :39:26. | :39:28. | |
Did Khalid Masood's actions make you think British police officers | :39:29. | :39:32. | |
I think we were all there on Wednesday. | :39:33. | :39:38. | |
Some thoughts on lessons to be learned? | :39:39. | :39:41. | |
I mean, Ben, you think there's an argument for more | :39:42. | :39:43. | |
I think we pride ourselves on having a police force that's | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
But there'll be people who know a lot more | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
and I'm sure they will be reviewing the Commons security as we speak, | :39:54. | :39:59. | |
whether more can be done to make that very vulnerable entrance point | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
a little more robust, and the question as to | :40:03. | :40:05. | |
whether you should leave police officers out there unarmed, | :40:06. | :40:11. | |
but I don't really feel qualified to say that. | :40:12. | :40:13. | |
But it's not in the British tradition, is it, for all of our | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
police officers - particularly those who spend time having themselves | :40:17. | :40:19. | |
photographed with tourists - to have great machine guns. | :40:20. | :40:21. | |
There was an interesting debate the day afterwards, | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
with the Prime Minister and others, arguing that, in a technical | :40:27. | :40:29. | |
sense, the assailant didn't actually breach the Parliamentary security. | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
But, obviously, if you look at the footage, and you were there, | :40:35. | :40:37. | |
clearly, that body was a long way into the Parliamentary estate? | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
First of all, I very much agree with Ben, | :40:42. | :40:46. | |
that we shouldn't arm all of our police, because I think | :40:47. | :40:49. | |
it's lovely they can stay there and talk with tourists | :40:50. | :40:51. | |
But we've also got to protect those police. | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
Normally, there is a policeman with a machine gun just back | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
Now, how the assailant got in quite as far as he did, I don't know. | :41:02. | :41:11. | |
I suspect the division bell went, at the gates opened, and, | :41:12. | :41:14. | |
of course, all the ministers are coming back in to vote. | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
And I suspect it was just by chance that he had that | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
That's why, I suspect, we may have to look at not perhaps | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
doing quite so much, we can do more at the outer gates, | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
and then perhaps make sure we have a system where you come | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
into a locked gate system and into the second part. | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
I think the main thing is that our heart goes out to the police, | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
they lost one of their own, and he was a really, really great | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
Ben comes in on bicycle, so do I into Parliament - | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
I don't cycle around my constituency, because it's | :41:52. | :41:53. | |
But we need to make sure we protect our police, | :41:54. | :42:01. | |
but we have armed police there, ready to take down an assailant. | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
But somehow or other, those police that are right | :42:06. | :42:08. | |
out with the public, they're great ambassadors, | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
but they've got to be protected more than they are at the moment. | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
Would the NHS be better off if it was funded | :42:18. | :42:19. | |
Sarah Wollaston, the chair of the Health Select Committee, | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
thinks so and told this programme it was time to consider ring fencing | :42:24. | :42:26. | |
National Insurance to pay for the apparently endlessly rising | :42:27. | :42:30. | |
More patients than at any time in NHS history. | :42:31. | :42:39. | |
Worried relatives, medical staff under pressure and a political row | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
about whether NHS funding is keeping up with demand. | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
I'm going to go and see what I can do to shift beds and create space. | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
Fresh from one winter crunch point, the Government already appears | :42:53. | :42:54. | |
Experience has shown that on-site GP triage in A departments can | :42:55. | :43:01. | |
have a significant and positive impact on A waiting times. | :43:02. | :43:08. | |
I'm therefore making a further ?100 million of capital available | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
immediately for new triage projects at English hospitals | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
Something similar already happens in Plymouth. | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
There are a number of potential benefits. | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
The main benefit would be that patients should see the right | :43:27. | :43:28. | |
practitioner first time, and not have to go through | :43:29. | :43:30. | |
a complicated series of seeing different people before they finally | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
see the doctor or nurse that can best meet their needs. | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
But there are already fears about whether there will be enough | :43:40. | :43:41. | |
GPs to make this work across England by next winter. | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
And one Conservative MP, who also happens to be chair | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
of the Health Select Committee, says it's time the NHS was directly | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
I think there's much more support for these kinds of taxes if people | :43:55. | :44:05. | |
So I do think, actually, that a hypothecated tax is a good idea, | :44:06. | :44:11. | |
and I would like to see National Insurance repurposed | :44:12. | :44:14. | |
as a health and social care insurance, and for that | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
That is a huge change when it comes to public finances. | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
Interestingly, National Insurance raises more | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
For others, though, the situation is less | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
about the rules of tax-and-spend, but about being straight | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
If we're being honest with people, if we're being honest | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
with the public, an up to 2p increase in tax | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
would be necessary in order to save the NHS. | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
That isn't Lib Dem policy yet, but it is a measure of just how | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
seriously some are taking the health of the NHS. | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
Neil, have you got any sympathy with your Conservative colleague's | :45:04. | :45:06. | |
view there that there should be some ring-fenced tax? | :45:07. | :45:09. | |
She says that should be National Insurance. | :45:10. | :45:11. | |
I think it's an interesting idea to ring fence a tax. | :45:12. | :45:14. | |
Whether National Insurance is the right one, in the end | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
I think it probably would have to be income tax. | :45:18. | :45:19. | |
You think people might be persuaded...? | :45:20. | :45:21. | |
I think they might be, because what has happened, | :45:22. | :45:23. | |
and naturally it's bound to be a political football, | :45:24. | :45:26. | |
health, by its very nature, we all need health care | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
and the amount we spend on it is a political issue - | :45:31. | :45:33. | |
but I think, because more money is pouring in, | :45:34. | :45:36. | |
and success governments will have to pour more money in, | :45:37. | :45:39. | |
perhaps it is actually time to look at this. | :45:40. | :45:42. | |
But if you start, health has a tax, defence has a tax, | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
What we do accept is that we will have to review how much | :45:47. | :45:54. | |
we spend on the health service, because we're all getting older, | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
That's the Lib Dem's contention, that you need to be honest. | :46:01. | :46:10. | |
It's not an easy one to deal with, because people like the service. | :46:11. | :46:13. | |
They don't necessarily want to pay the tax, | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
But let's have this debate, because I think it's clear that | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
all of us want the health service to succeed. | :46:23. | :46:27. | |
And it's case of not only managing the health service, | :46:28. | :46:30. | |
And we're putting more money in, but the cost of pensions | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
and the cost of everything is going up. | :46:37. | :46:38. | |
Ben, you look at the Labour party's website today, | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
on the front page, save the NHS, save it from the Tories, | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
But how are you going to do this, how would you provide this funding? | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
It's great that Neil and Sarah and other Conservative MPs | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
Not just for the NHS, but for social care. | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
When we left office, we had NHS funding up | :47:01. | :47:02. | |
It's now gone back down again, and we're seeing | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
As Neil says, we have a growing, elderly population, | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
We have to have a long-term, sustainable solution. | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
I'm not sure that hypothecation is necessarily the answer, | :47:15. | :47:17. | |
partly for the reasons Neil's already given, | :47:18. | :47:19. | |
but if there was a recession, for example, does that | :47:20. | :47:22. | |
mean the money's then going to go down for the NHS? | :47:23. | :47:24. | |
But you do need to do something, and I think you need | :47:25. | :47:27. | |
to look at everything, whether it's is combination | :47:28. | :47:29. | |
of income, National Insurance tax, more sin taxes - like the sugar tax | :47:30. | :47:32. | |
that the Health Committee recommended that has now been | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
adopted by the Government, already been very successful | :47:37. | :47:38. | |
Well, you can think of a number of things, can't you - | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
fat, sugars, salt, things that are bad for you. | :47:44. | :47:45. | |
I think the public would accept that perhaps more than income tax, | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
And I don't think we should rule out the idea that we had | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
when we were in Government for social care, of some kind | :47:54. | :47:56. | |
Because if you invest in public health - | :47:57. | :48:07. | |
which I think is the other mistake this Government's made, | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
it's cut funding for public health - so, illness prevention, | :48:11. | :48:12. | |
then you actually reduce long-term demand on the NHS. | :48:13. | :48:14. | |
So our obesity report, which is coming out this weekend, | :48:15. | :48:17. | |
which is very critical of the Government inaction, | :48:18. | :48:19. | |
says that if you spend a bit more on tackling obesity, | :48:20. | :48:21. | |
you save a lot more for the NHS in the long run. | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
I don't want to get too aggressive with Ben, but don't forget, | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
we did have a huge deficit, over ?50,000 million | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
It's all very well to spend the money, but we've got to spend | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
So I think there will have to be some link. | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
If we were linking this tax with the health spending, | :48:44. | :48:45. | |
it's got to be linked somehow to the economy as well | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
OK, alongside the financial strain on the NHS, there's a huge | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
problem with staffing, both the Lib Dems and | :48:53. | :48:54. | |
the British Medical Association are warning that Brexit | :48:55. | :48:57. | |
Here's Dr Jeeves Wijesuriya, who is chairman of the junior doctor's | :48:58. | :49:04. | |
We've done a recent survey of EU doctors that are working | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
here in the UK, and the implications of Brexit are absolutely huge. | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
Four in ten EU-trained doctors feel that they will have to leave | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
the health service and will leave working in this country | :49:18. | :49:20. | |
because of the possible implications of Brexit. | :49:21. | :49:27. | |
He was making the point that there is a staffing crisis at the moment. | :49:28. | :49:34. | |
And he says this is only going to get potentially much worse if this | :49:35. | :49:41. | |
situation with EU nationals isn't sorted? | :49:42. | :49:43. | |
I have made this point are ready, in fact I raised it with the Health | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
Secretary in the Commons, and the solution to this is to reassure sent | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
to EU nationals are currently work in the health service or social care | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
that they will be able to save. Again, very just satisfactory answer | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
from the Health Secretary. They need to make this a priority once | :50:01. | :50:03. | |
negotiations start. I think Ben is right, but whether | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
Government's also right is that we can't agree to that until we have a | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
reciprocal arrangement with what's hanging with our guys across Europe. | :50:13. | :50:21. | |
Otherwise we shall run out of staff. Not just in health service, it's | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
across the whole industry. Wanted to ask you about that, | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
because last week the Immigration Minister was suggesting that in | :50:31. | :50:37. | |
terms of agricultural work, we could be up skilling native workers to do | :50:38. | :50:40. | |
that. Is the Government likely to be banging the drum in a big way in | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
terms of health staff? Saying we can train our own doctors and that will | :50:46. | :50:48. | |
solve the problem? We can try, and we can do more to | :50:49. | :50:54. | |
solve the problem. When it comes to doctors and nurses, we have a pool | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
we can get native workers into. When it comes to picking vegetables or | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
whatever, there isn't an massive amount of people that really want | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
those particularly jobs are available for those particular jobs. | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
Meat processing, factories, you name it. There's a big in my constituency | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
where 70% of the workers are Eastern European. What we are saying and the | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
moment is that there is enough Labour, but we've got to work very | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
quickly. And as far as the health service is concerned, I think we | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
have more of a chance to get more home-grown labour in there. But it's | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
not easy, and the Government's got to be ready to move quickly. | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
What happens if these people have already gone back? | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
The Immigration Minister was saying to us last week that the figures | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
don't show that. Some of the figures are up as far as September, and some | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
as far as December. I think we're got to look through this next period | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
and make sure that people are still coming. Barbarians and remaining is | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
into becoming reasonably freely here. -- Bulgarians and Romanians | :52:03. | :52:08. | |
seem to becoming reasonably freely here. Others not so much. | :52:09. | :52:15. | |
Is this more moaning scaremongering, some people would say? | :52:16. | :52:23. | |
No. There are fewer applications, staff shortages across the health | :52:24. | :52:25. | |
sector. Even the president of the commission said we should settle | :52:26. | :52:33. | |
this now, it's amoral issue. If you -- it's a moral issue. If you look | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
at the pension liability and other at the pension liability and other | :52:38. | :52:40. | |
issues going forward, this will not be easy. It has the potential to be | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
a complete disaster. a complete disaster. | :52:45. | :52:47. | |
But had to make sure it works, But had to make sure it works, | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
because we are Brexiting, and it has to work. | :52:52. | :52:53. | |
Some local MP's are calling for the Government to review | :52:54. | :52:55. | |
the DVLA's practice of selling drivers details | :52:56. | :52:57. | |
The issue was debated in the House of Commons following claims some | :52:58. | :53:01. | |
private companies are intimidating and hounding drivers to pay fines. | :53:02. | :53:03. | |
The DVLA only supplies details to companies | :53:04. | :53:05. | |
which are accredited by a trade body, but Torbay MP | :53:06. | :53:07. | |
Kevin Foster says the standards are not high enough. | :53:08. | :53:10. | |
Barry, Hazel and Jonathan - three Torbay residents | :53:11. | :53:16. | |
who took their battle over a parking fine to their MP. | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
I've been issued with a ?100 fine for overstaying in the Marina | :53:22. | :53:24. | |
I know that's not the case, because I have a ticket to prove that. | :53:25. | :53:34. | |
I was sent a fine for missing off, apparently, the first digit | :53:35. | :53:37. | |
I didn't put my whole registration number in. | :53:38. | :53:40. | |
The fine was eventually reduced to 30. | :53:41. | :53:43. | |
All three wrote at the local MP, Kevin Foster, to complain. | :53:44. | :53:46. | |
And this week, the Tory called on the Government | :53:47. | :53:48. | |
I think the suspicion is the cowboy clampers have become the cowboy | :53:49. | :53:54. | |
And whilst they may wish to leave their spur marks on | :53:55. | :53:59. | |
car parks across the country, I hope the Minister will be clear | :54:00. | :54:02. | |
of what action will be taken to make sure they have to ride off | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
Now, Kevin Foster has received more complaints about this car park, | :54:07. | :54:13. | |
and Crossways in Paignton, then any other in his patch. | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
Now that I've parked, I am entering into a legal agreement | :54:18. | :54:26. | |
with the company which runs this car park. | :54:27. | :54:29. | |
Now that I've parked, I am entering into a legal agreement | :54:30. | :54:31. | |
with the company which runs this car park. | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
I have to abide by their terms and conditions. | :54:35. | :54:36. | |
If I don't abide by these terms and conditions - | :54:37. | :54:47. | |
staying late for example - DVLA will send my registered | :54:48. | :54:50. | |
details to the company which runs this car park, | :54:51. | :54:53. | |
and then the company will issue me a fine. | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
That's all very well if the car park's being run properly. | :54:59. | :55:01. | |
But some MPs say they know of cases around | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
the country where drivers are being penalised unfairly. | :55:06. | :55:08. | |
People are duped into false charges and harassed | :55:09. | :55:10. | |
by firms who manage, somehow, to get hold | :55:11. | :55:13. | |
of their personal information, whether through the DVLA, or, | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
as mentioned earlier, through other sources. | :55:19. | :55:21. | |
But a trade body which oversees private operators says the DVLA | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
will only pass on details to companies which have | :55:26. | :55:28. | |
We've had a great number of members who halve applied | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
Unfortunately, anyone who isn't willing to work within the confines | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
of our code of practice or engage to the high standards | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
that we require, doesn't get past the first stage. | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
Premier Park, which runs this car park, says it's happy | :55:46. | :55:48. | |
to meet with Mr Foster to discuss any issues. | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
But only time will tell us if the Government | :55:53. | :55:54. | |
will change its regulations in the sector. | :55:55. | :56:06. | |
Ben, because you're a famous cyclist, do you have any sympathy | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
with these motorists? I've had examples of over officious | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
car parking agencies chasing constituents. There's balance to be | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
struck care. You had a guy on the film there from the organisations | :56:23. | :56:25. | |
that represents car parks that says we won't accept some of these | :56:26. | :56:32. | |
operators into our operation. I think that's the route to go down. | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
But people shouldn't be able to get away with breaking the law are | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
taking up a parking space owners could use when they haven't paid for | :56:41. | :56:46. | |
it. There's balance to be made. Is the balance correct? | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
Not quite, they come in and I as quickly as they can, they don't get | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
as much leeway, not as much as public car parks would. I think they | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
need to be restricted in their ambitions, echoes they're very much, | :57:00. | :57:02. | |
the quicker they get you, the more they can charge you. They're | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
enormous charges people are having to pay, ridiculous fines. | :57:08. | :57:13. | |
At the trade body enough though? Probably not, and probably not | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
perhaps making enough noise about it. I also think perhaps, sometimes, | :57:18. | :57:27. | |
where are the revenues going from these vast charges? Mummers Day of | :57:28. | :57:36. | |
it's another issue, because in the end looks as if they're penalised | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
hugely with massive fines, I think they've got a fair gripe. | :57:41. | :57:42. | |
Time now for our regular round-up of the political week in 60 seconds. | :57:43. | :57:50. | |
A public meeting was told about last-ditch efforts | :57:51. | :57:52. | |
to save the only care home on the Isles of Scilly. | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
If the home closes, elderly people face a move to the mainland. | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
It's splitting my family, it is making them out of reach. | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
When they need me, they need me, and I won't be there. | :58:03. | :58:07. | |
Devon County Council's Tory leader is launching a petition to get | :58:08. | :58:10. | |
school funding debated again in the Commons. | :58:11. | :58:13. | |
Tory backbenchers are far from happy with the way | :58:14. | :58:16. | |
the Government's handling this increasingly toxic issue. | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
It would be a very poor reflection on us if standards went down | :58:22. | :58:24. | |
simply because we're not able to supply children with the teachers | :58:25. | :58:27. | |
they need and with the support staff they need and with | :58:28. | :58:30. | |
And that's something that I, as a Conservative MP, | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
There's been more concern about mobile phone coverage | :58:34. | :58:40. | |
One MP is saying the lack of connectivity is leaving | :58:41. | :58:44. | |
And there's plenty of anger from consumers too. | :58:45. | :58:54. | |
Neil, I think you are the MP saying you think constituents | :58:55. | :58:57. | |
are being left in the dark ages because of mobile phone coverage? | :58:58. | :59:00. | |
Because we were having a debate, or I was going to have a debate | :59:01. | :59:05. | |
when we were locked in the chamber because of the terrorist attack, | :59:06. | :59:08. | |
but it is a case of making sure they share properly, the companies. | :59:09. | :59:11. | |
And some are getting broadband, the most rural areas, will be | :59:12. | :59:17. | |
I think partly it's because the companies | :59:18. | :59:21. | |
And I know the Government doesn't want to go there, | :59:22. | :59:25. | |
but roaming, so that you go from one company to the other. | :59:26. | :59:28. | |
Because in some areas in the countryside, Orange or O2 | :59:29. | :59:32. | |
or the other networks will work better in certain areas. | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
I used to travel across the continent, I could change | :59:37. | :59:39. | |
countries and get another roaming and the phone never went. | :59:40. | :59:43. | |
But drive into the Blackdown Hills, and your signal goes entirely. | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
Not that Ben does that on his bicycle very often. | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
The school funding issue, of course, very dominant this week again. | :59:52. | :59:57. | |
And, frankly, a lot of stony-faced Conservative MPs | :59:58. | :00:04. | |
as the Prime Minister was defending what the Government's doing. | :00:05. | :00:08. | |
I did warn ministers a couple of years ago when they said | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
they said they wanted to change the formula - | :00:13. | :00:14. | |
which we all support - at the same time cutting | :00:15. | :00:16. | |
funding to schools overall, as they are, by 7%. | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
It's the very worst time to fiddle around with the formula, | :00:22. | :00:24. | |
because you create more losers than you do winners, | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
Because nobody's really happy with the thing, are they? | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
The main thing is that we invested more in schools across the piece, | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
so all schools were getting more money... | :00:39. | :00:40. | |
We did have more money, because we were running, | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
until the financial crash, we had the long this period | :00:45. | :00:46. | |
of sustained growth, noninflationary growth, | :00:47. | :00:47. | |
Yeah, but not because of the overspending, Neil, | :00:48. | :00:53. | |
because of the global financial crash. | :00:54. | :00:55. | |
The schools weren't complaining, the schools were getting better, | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
attainment was getting better, and investment was going in. | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
We've now seen the biggest cut since the 1950s in our schools, | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
and this lot are doing nothing about it. | :01:09. | :01:14. | |
Neil, are you as cross as many of your colleagues? | :01:15. | :01:16. | |
Pretty well, because I think it's a case of more money and some | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
The trouble is partly one of the problems is the Government's | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
been to prescriptive or the county and how we spend it | :01:24. | :01:25. | |
So it's combination assembly that is, because we make sure | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
at the next generation is better educated than we were and so on. | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
Is the Government going to get out of this hole, do you think? | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
I would have thought that if we upped the temperature, | :01:36. | :01:37. | |
we would get something out of the Government. | :01:38. | :01:39. | |
It doesn't have a very big majority, and think perhaps | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
can see you nodding in agreement but we don't have any more time! Thank | :01:43. | :01:49. | |
you both for coming in, Andrew, back to you. | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
So yesterday the European Union celebrated its 60th birthday | :01:56. | :02:12. | |
at a party in Rome, the city where the founding document | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
Leaders of 27 EU countries were there to mark the occasion - | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
overshadowing it, though, the continued terrorist threat, | :02:20. | :02:21. | |
And on Wednesday Theresa May, who wasn't in Rome yesterday, | :02:22. | :02:24. | |
will trigger Article 50, formally starting | :02:25. | :02:25. | |
The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk, | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
made an appeal for unity at the gathering. | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
Today in Rome, we are renewing the unique alliance of free nations | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
that was initiated 60 years ago by our great predecessors. | :02:41. | :02:48. | |
At that time, they did not discuss multiple speeds, | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
they did not devise exits, but despite all the tragic | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
circumstances of the recent history they placed all their faith | :02:56. | :02:57. | |
Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that has the Council of ministers, and on | :02:58. | :03:17. | |
that council where every member of the EU sits he is an important | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
figure in what is now about to happen. We have got to negotiate our | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
divorce terms, we've got to agree a new free trade deal, new | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
crime-fighting arrangements, we've got to repatriate 50 international | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
trade agreements, and all of that has to be ratified within two years, | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
by 27 other countries. Can that really happen?! I don't think it is | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
inconceivable because it is in the interests of those 27 EU member | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
states to try and negotiate a deal that we can all live with, because | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
that would be preferable to Britain crashing out within two years. But I | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
think this is why Labour's position is becoming increasingly incoherent. | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
Keir Starmer has briefed today that he will be making a speech tomorrow | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
setting out six conditions which he wants the deal to meet, otherwise | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
Labour won't vote for it, but if Labour doesn't vote for it that | :04:12. | :04:29. | |
doesn't mean we will be able to negotiate an extension, that would | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
be incredibly difficult and require the consent of each of the 27 member | :04:34. | :04:35. | |
states, so if Labour votes against it we will just crash out, it is | :04:36. | :04:38. | |
effectively Labour saying no deal is better than a poor deal, which is | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
not supposed to be their position. Labour's position may be incoherent | :04:42. | :04:43. | |
but I was not asking about their position, I was asking about the | :04:44. | :04:45. | |
Government's position. The man heading the Badila said he wants it | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
ready by October next year so that it can go through the ratification | :04:49. | :04:50. | |
process, people looking at this would think it is Mission: | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
Impossible. It seems impossible to me to be done in that time. The fact | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
that it is 27 countries, the whole of the European Parliament as well, | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
there will be too many people throbbing spanners in the works and | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
quite rightly. We have embarked on something that is truly terrible and | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
disastrous, and the imagery we can have of those 27 countries | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
celebrating together 60 years of the most extraordinary successful | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
movement for peace, for shared European values, and others not | :05:23. | :05:29. | |
there... We were not there at the start either, and we are not there | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
now! And we have been bad partners while we were inside, but now that | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
we are leaving... They did not look like it was a birthday party to me! | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
I think it was, there was a sense of renewal, Europe exists as a place | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
envied in the world for its values, for its peacefulness, that is why | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
people flocked to its borders, that is why they come here. Can you look | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
at the agenda that faces the UK Government and EU 27, is it not | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
possible, in fact even likely, that as the process comes to an end they | :06:06. | :06:12. | |
will have to agree on a number of areas of transitional arrangements? | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
I think they will and they will have to agree that soon, I would not be | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
surprised if sometime soon there is an understanding is not a formal | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
decision that this is a process that will extend over something closer to | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
buy or seven than two years. On Wednesday article 50 will be filed | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
and there will be lots of excitement and hubbub but nothing concrete can | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
happen for a while. Elections in France in May, elections in Germany | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
which could really result in a change of Government... That is the | :06:40. | :06:52. | |
big change, Mrs Merkel might not be there by October. And who foresaw | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
that a few months ago? So you might be into 28 Dean before you are into | :06:56. | :06:57. | |
the substantive discussions about how much market access or regulatory | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
observance. I cannot see it being completed in two years. I could see, | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
if negotiations are not too acrimonious, that transitional | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
agreement taking place. Let's look at the timetable again. The council | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
doesn't meet until the end of April, it meets in the middle of the French | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
elections, the first round will have taken place, they will need a second | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
round so not much can happen. President Hollande will be | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
representing France, then the new French government, if it is Marine | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
le Pen all bets are off, but even if it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
party, he will not have a majority, the French will take a long while to | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
sort out themselves. Then it is summer, we are off to the Cote | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian elite, then we come back from that | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
and the Germans are in an election, it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr Schultz, he may have to try to form | :07:52. | :08:04. | |
a difficult green red coalition, that would take a while. Before you | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and no substance has taken place, yet we | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
are then less than a year before this has to be decided. It is a big | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
task and I'm sure Jana is right that there will be transitional | :08:14. | :08:15. | |
arrangements and not everything will be concluded in that two year | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
timetable, but in some respects what you have described helps those of us | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
on the Eurosceptic site because it means they cannot really be a | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
meaningful parliamentary vote on the terms of the deal because nothing is | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
going to be agreed quickly enough for them to be able to go back and | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
agree something else if Parliament rejects it, so when the Government | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
eventually have something ready to bring before Parliament it will be a | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
take it or leave it boat. How extraordinary that people who have | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
campaigned. Indeed give us our country back and say, isn't it | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
wonderful, we won't have a meaningful boat for our | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
parliamentarians of the most important... We don't know what the | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
negotiation, the package is, day by day we see more and more complicated | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
areas nobody ever thought about, nobody mentioned during the | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
campaign, all of which has to be resolved and the European Council | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
and the negotiators say nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
You lead us into a catastrophe. There will be plenty of opportunity | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
for Parliament to have its say following the introduction of the | :09:24. | :09:25. | |
Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if there will be no Parliamentary time | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
devoted. The final package is what counts. We have two years to blog | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
about this! There was a big Proview -- pro-EU | :09:34. | :09:44. | |
march yesterday... I was there! Polly Toynbee was there, down to | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
Parliament Square, lots of people there marching in favour of the | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
European Union. We can see the EU flags there on flags, lots of | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
national flags as well, the British one. Polly, is it the aim of people | :10:00. | :10:08. | |
like you still to stop Brexit, or to soften Brexit? I think the aim is | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
for the best you can possibly do to limit the damage. Of course, if it | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
happens that once people have had a chance to see how much they were | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
lied to during the campaign and how dreadful the deal is likely to be, | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
if it happens that enough people in the population have changed their | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
minds, then maybe... There is no sign up yet. But we have not even | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
begun, people have not begun to confront what it is going to mean. | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
Wait and see. I think it is just being as close as we can. Is that | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
credible, do you think, to stop it or to ameliorate it in terms of the | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
Remainers? I think it is far more credible to try and stop it but even | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
then the scope is limited. It is fairly apparent Theresa May's | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
interpretation of the referendum is the country wants an end to free | :10:58. | :11:16. | |
movement, there is probably no way of doing that inside the single | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
market. She also wants external trade deals, no way of doing that | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
outside the customs unit, said the only night you can depend if you are | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
pro-European is, let's not leave without any trade pact, at least | :11:26. | :11:27. | |
let's meet Canada and have a formalised trade agreement. The idea | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
of ace -- of a very soft exit is gone now because the public really | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
did want an end to free movement and the Government really does want | :11:34. | :11:35. | |
external trade deals. It depends what changes in Europe. I think the | :11:36. | :11:42. | |
momentum behind the Remoaning movement will move away. One of the | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
banners I saw being held up yesterday by a young boy on the news | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
was, don't put my daddy on a boat. It gets a lot of its moral force | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
from the uncertainty surrounding the fate of EU nationals here and our | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
resident in the remainder of the EU and I think David Lidington is right | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
that it will be concluded quite quickly once negotiations start and | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
that will take a lot of the heat and momentum out of the remaining | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
movement. Why didn't Theresa May allow that amendment that said, we | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
will do that, as an act of generosity, we will say, of course | :12:18. | :12:20. | |
those European citizens here are welcome to stay? It would have been | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
such a good opening move in the negotiations, instead of which she | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
blocked it. It does not augur well. I have interviewed many Tories about | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
this and put that point to them but they often say the Prime minister's | :12:36. | :12:42. | |
job is to look after UK citizen in the EU... Bargaining chips, I think | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
you have to be generous and you have to wish you people in Spain and | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
everywhere else where there are British citizens would have | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
responded. The British Government did try and raise that with their EU | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
counterparts and were told, we cannot begin to talk about that | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
until article 50 has been triggered. Next week we will be able to talk | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
about it. How generous it would have been, we would have started on a | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
better note. Didn't happen, we will see what happens next with EU | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
citizens. That is it for today, the Daily Politics will be back tomorrow | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
at midday and every day next week on BBC Two as always. | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
And there's also a Question Time special live tomorrow | :13:21. | :13:22. | |
night from Birmingham - with guests including | :13:23. | :13:23. | |
the Brexit Secretary David Davis, Labour's Keir Starmer, | :13:24. | :13:25. | |
former Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the SNP's Alex Salmond - | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
I'll be back next week at 11am here on BBC One. | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
Until then, remember - if it's Sunday, it's | :13:35. | :13:37. |