26/03/2017 Sunday Politics South West


26/03/2017

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It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:43.:00:46.

The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,

:00:47.:00:49.

but do the security services have the resources and

:00:50.:00:51.

We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.

:00:52.:00:54.

As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of

:00:55.:00:58.

Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power

:00:59.:01:04.

Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job

:01:05.:01:07.

In the South West: and the party's

:01:08.:01:12.

A senior Tory claims we needa special tax to pay for the NHS.

:01:13.:01:15.

And should the Government bring in tighter controls

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And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political

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panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee

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and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

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First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack

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The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament,

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but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 -

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one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital.

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His target was the very heart of our democracy,

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the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres

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of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers.

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Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's

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close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity

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at the time, the outcome could have been even worse.

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Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we

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be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary

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response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as

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prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive

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way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and

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national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to

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whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put

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more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor

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sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder

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whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around

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the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack,

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as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on

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social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the

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attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to

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the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions.

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Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while

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an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the

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weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the

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world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it

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stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for

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years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the

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chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal,

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so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of

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London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that

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the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this

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is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think

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from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a

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poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to

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imagine the emergency services and local people, international

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visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our

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Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards

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shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice.

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It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values

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that is attacking. OK, thank you for that.

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So, four days after the attack, what more do we know

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The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains

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Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation.

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According to a police timeline, that's how long it took

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Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster

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to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter...

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to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard

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The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster.

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The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying:

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"We would like to express our gratitude to the people

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who were with Keith in his last moments and who were

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There was nothing more you could have done,

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you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone."

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Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him.

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Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp

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The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging

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There should be no place for terrorists to hide.

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We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp,

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and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret

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place for terrorists to communicate with each other.

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It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just

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listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing,

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legally, through warrantry, but in this situation

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we need to make sure that our intelligence services

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have the ability to get into situations like encrypted

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She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions

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at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out

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But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be

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..not the policy implications that will echo the loudest.

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We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol,

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the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright.

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What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I

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can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation,

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because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but

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to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80

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counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year,

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using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the

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very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also

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tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring

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this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made

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available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do

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we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired

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or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being

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led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate

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on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the

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attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in

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Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin

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Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last

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year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved

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have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of

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them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians

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in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a

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gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of

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attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at

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least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well.

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Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those

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involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is

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going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we?

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Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least

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the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the

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only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see

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in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for

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example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the

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security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels,

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Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that

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could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at

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least the first indications from what police are saying in London,

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these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of

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the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised

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community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a

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dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised

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individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult

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when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that

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they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the

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work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices

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that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home

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Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps

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like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they

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encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services

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to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for

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that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years

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there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are

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becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more

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and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators,

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and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the

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ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not

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when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board,

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for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have

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to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of

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these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a

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more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is

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certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying

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to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree

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certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative

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solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide

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but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done

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to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of

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communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our

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lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much.

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Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House

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What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of

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Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very

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courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to

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be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident

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of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but

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also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already

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under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and

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security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get

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reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary

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security director, and just as security matters in parliament are

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kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as

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a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the

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issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling

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events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their

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lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is

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it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate,

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where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening

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for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led

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to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last

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couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have

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actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would

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expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security

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matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at

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all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the

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security authorities and in particular for the police and direct

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command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it

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because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers

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this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no

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position to comment on the details of the operation but my

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understanding is that the number of people available is what the police

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and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and

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that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it

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not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left

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unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so

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that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able

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to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that

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case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't

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yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody

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involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who

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was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time.

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We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were

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concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the

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attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with

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a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it

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is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be

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pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it.

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To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the

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witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what

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happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any

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changes need to be made in light of that.

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We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence

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Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced

:16:11.:16:15.

the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details

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but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have

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been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has

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been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a

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so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the

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Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this

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simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that

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is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader

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of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals

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who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by

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the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in

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public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been

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reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it

:17:23.:17:25.

raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions

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should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are

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kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both

:17:40.:17:43.

in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the

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palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the

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perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was

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a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at

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carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed

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guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to

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look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing.

:18:22.:18:25.

There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't

:18:26.:18:29.

know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will

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find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If

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you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to

:18:40.:18:43.

be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed

:18:44.:18:48.

accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about

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lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is

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important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview

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of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered

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view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will

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be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins

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our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on

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Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper

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that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's

:19:25.:19:30.

not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts

:19:31.:19:37.

of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the

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commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime

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Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has

:19:48.:19:53.

been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It

:19:54.:19:57.

doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational

:19:58.:20:05.

mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an

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agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies

:20:09.:20:15.

that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police

:20:16.:20:18.

cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all

:20:19.:20:23.

countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it

:20:24.:20:28.

will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that?

:20:29.:20:35.

Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context

:20:36.:20:39.

of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the

:20:40.:20:44.

departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply

:20:45.:20:49.

not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a

:20:50.:20:54.

discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we

:20:55.:20:57.

all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we

:20:58.:21:02.

will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is

:21:03.:21:04.

possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The

:21:05.:21:21.

question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the

:21:22.:21:23.

subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel?

:21:24.:21:26.

Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have

:21:27.:21:32.

to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate

:21:33.:21:36.

the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once

:21:37.:21:41.

David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the

:21:42.:21:47.

national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady

:21:48.:21:51.

progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good

:21:52.:21:56.

piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a

:21:57.:22:04.

substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out

:22:05.:22:08.

some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU

:22:09.:22:14.

programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50

:22:15.:22:20.

billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So

:22:21.:22:26.

50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get

:22:27.:22:32.

into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting

:22:33.:22:36.

very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum

:22:37.:22:44.

there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of

:22:45.:22:49.

separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find

:22:50.:22:52.

out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The

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Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which

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is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision

:23:10.:23:13.

of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in

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a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity

:23:18.:23:22.

and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the

:23:23.:23:25.

Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on

:23:26.:23:31.

Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will

:23:32.:23:36.

see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine

:23:37.:23:41.

thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII

:23:42.:23:46.

powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to

:23:47.:23:52.

avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities

:23:53.:23:59.

Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory

:24:00.:24:03.

footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those

:24:04.:24:10.

EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another

:24:11.:24:17.

regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to

:24:18.:24:22.

have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European

:24:23.:24:33.

regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come

:24:34.:24:38.

in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those

:24:39.:24:43.

powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the

:24:44.:24:46.

parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And

:24:47.:24:51.

if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the

:24:52.:24:57.

Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary

:24:58.:25:00.

legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the

:25:01.:25:05.

constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill

:25:06.:25:10.

and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House

:25:11.:25:14.

of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those

:25:15.:25:20.

powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision.

:25:21.:25:25.

David Lidington, thank you for being with us.

:25:26.:25:27.

So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell.

:25:28.:25:29.

He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party

:25:30.:25:31.

almost three years ago, but yesterday announced

:25:32.:25:33.

that he was quitting to sit as an independent.

:25:34.:25:35.

His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying,

:25:36.:25:37.

"Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster".

:25:38.:25:40.

But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell

:25:41.:25:44.

criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as

:25:45.:25:46.

Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage

:25:47.:25:51.

was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell

:25:52.:25:54.

opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign.

:25:55.:26:00.

Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage

:26:01.:26:02.

accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances

:26:03.:26:04.

of being awarded a knighthood, writing that,

:26:05.:26:06.

Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday,

:26:07.:26:14.

Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU.

:26:15.:26:16.

Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have

:26:17.:26:19.

decided that I will be leaving Ukip."

:26:20.:26:22.

When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014

:26:23.:26:24.

he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election.

:26:25.:26:27.

"I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring

:26:28.:26:30.

This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election.

:26:31.:26:38.

We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall.

:26:39.:26:45.

Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your

:26:46.:26:54.

only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at

:26:55.:27:00.

a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not

:27:01.:27:06.

surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the

:27:07.:27:10.

past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage

:27:11.:27:13.

certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime

:27:14.:27:18.

which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had

:27:19.:27:21.

done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering

:27:22.:27:26.

over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a

:27:27.:27:33.

more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he

:27:34.:27:36.

expected to be pushed out your national executive committee

:27:37.:27:39.

tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to

:27:40.:27:42.

answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the

:27:43.:27:47.

last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue

:27:48.:27:54.

surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came

:27:55.:27:58.

out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to

:27:59.:28:03.

answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did

:28:04.:28:11.

jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out

:28:12.:28:15.

of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear

:28:16.:28:23.

is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the

:28:24.:28:28.

party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks,

:28:29.:28:33.

you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a

:28:34.:28:38.

pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party,

:28:39.:28:46.

doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to

:28:47.:29:01.

rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over

:29:02.:29:06.

the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will

:29:07.:29:09.

rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have

:29:10.:29:13.

a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post

:29:14.:29:19.

Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he

:29:20.:29:23.

said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the

:29:24.:29:27.

skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't

:29:28.:29:33.

it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November

:29:34.:29:39.

the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the

:29:40.:29:42.

party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem

:29:43.:29:46.

money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look

:29:47.:29:52.

forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit

:29:53.:29:56.

test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have

:29:57.:30:03.

been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you

:30:04.:30:06.

will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No,

:30:07.:30:12.

not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past,

:30:13.:30:17.

he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that

:30:18.:30:22.

but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for

:30:23.:30:26.

the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be

:30:27.:30:36.

interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster

:30:37.:30:41.

attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's

:30:42.:30:45.

extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like

:30:46.:30:51.

Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I

:30:52.:30:55.

personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I

:30:56.:30:59.

will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem

:31:00.:31:04.

within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the

:31:05.:31:09.

way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr

:31:10.:31:12.

Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the

:31:13.:31:29.

problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate

:31:30.:31:30.

communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would

:31:31.:31:33.

extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in

:31:34.:31:36.

Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But,

:31:37.:31:39.

as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme

:31:40.:31:42.

vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question

:31:43.:31:46.

too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get

:31:47.:31:50.

you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in

:31:51.:31:54.

Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has

:31:55.:31:58.

left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to

:31:59.:32:05.

go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people

:32:06.:32:07.

in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should

:32:08.:32:10.

have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon.

:32:11.:32:17.

Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio.

:32:18.:32:24.

Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are

:32:25.:32:30.

becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted

:32:31.:32:34.

myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to

:32:35.:32:38.

trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons

:32:39.:32:42.

resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the

:32:43.:32:46.

democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran

:32:47.:32:51.

parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here,

:32:52.:32:56.

I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage

:32:57.:33:00.

has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants

:33:01.:33:08.

to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going

:33:09.:33:13.

to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his

:33:14.:33:17.

constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr

:33:18.:33:21.

Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from

:33:22.:33:27.

Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the

:33:28.:33:30.

opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not

:33:31.:33:36.

always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an

:33:37.:33:40.

e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back,

:33:41.:33:45.

overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you

:33:46.:33:52.

are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won,

:33:53.:33:58.

Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June

:33:59.:34:02.

the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be

:34:03.:34:06.

absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is

:34:07.:34:11.

right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the

:34:12.:34:14.

European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one

:34:15.:34:18.

another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline

:34:19.:34:23.

the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I

:34:24.:34:28.

have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge.

:34:29.:34:33.

You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made

:34:34.:34:37.

the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made

:34:38.:34:41.

it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote

:34:42.:34:45.

Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would

:34:46.:34:49.

win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of

:34:50.:34:54.

that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas

:34:55.:35:02.

I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history

:35:03.:35:05.

proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk

:35:06.:35:09.

often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part

:35:10.:35:13.

of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic

:35:14.:35:17.

policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to

:35:18.:35:22.

sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave

:35:23.:35:25.

certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They

:35:26.:35:32.

freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel

:35:33.:35:38.

still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for

:35:39.:35:42.

Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and

:35:43.:35:45.

we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like

:35:46.:35:51.

Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is

:35:52.:35:55.

to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why

:35:56.:35:58.

can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but

:35:59.:36:02.

you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this

:36:03.:36:07.

than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten

:36:08.:36:10.

years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in

:36:11.:36:15.

2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in

:36:16.:36:19.

2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left

:36:20.:36:23.

us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically

:36:24.:36:27.

gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her

:36:28.:36:32.

record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam,

:36:33.:36:36.

nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of

:36:37.:36:40.

thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the

:36:41.:36:44.

size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of

:36:45.:36:47.

thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The

:36:48.:36:51.

problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the

:36:52.:36:56.

argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted

:36:57.:37:00.

her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until

:37:01.:37:04.

she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen,

:37:05.:37:08.

just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past.

:37:09.:37:12.

Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee

:37:13.:37:16.

into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what

:37:17.:37:20.

people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself

:37:21.:37:29.

with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip

:37:30.:37:32.

to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will

:37:33.:37:37.

come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit

:37:38.:37:41.

Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill

:37:42.:37:44.

and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas

:37:45.:37:50.

Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in

:37:51.:37:55.

the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were

:37:56.:38:01.

Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a

:38:02.:38:04.

Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a

:38:05.:38:10.

Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a

:38:11.:38:13.

party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree

:38:14.:38:16.

with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into

:38:17.:38:25.

2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote

:38:26.:38:29.

Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you

:38:30.:38:33.

fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and

:38:34.:38:37.

see. Very well! Thank you both very much.

:38:38.:38:54.

Hello, I'm Martyn Oates, coming up on the Sunday Politics

:38:55.:38:56.

Is it time for a special tax to pay for the NHS?

:38:57.:39:02.

I think there's much more support for these kinds of taxes if people

:39:03.:39:07.

So I do actually think a hypothecated tax is a good idea.

:39:08.:39:14.

And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by the Exeter MP

:39:15.:39:17.

Ben Bradshaw and by Neil Parish, the MP for Tiverton and Honiton.

:39:18.:39:20.

Last week's terrorist attack on Westminster has left many people

:39:21.:39:25.

wondering what more can be done to improve security.

:39:26.:39:28.

Did Khalid Masood's actions make you think British police officers

:39:29.:39:32.

I think we were all there on Wednesday.

:39:33.:39:38.

Some thoughts on lessons to be learned?

:39:39.:39:41.

I mean, Ben, you think there's an argument for more

:39:42.:39:43.

I think we pride ourselves on having a police force that's

:39:44.:39:49.

But there'll be people who know a lot more

:39:50.:39:53.

and I'm sure they will be reviewing the Commons security as we speak,

:39:54.:39:59.

whether more can be done to make that very vulnerable entrance point

:40:00.:40:02.

a little more robust, and the question as to

:40:03.:40:05.

whether you should leave police officers out there unarmed,

:40:06.:40:11.

but I don't really feel qualified to say that.

:40:12.:40:13.

But it's not in the British tradition, is it, for all of our

:40:14.:40:16.

police officers - particularly those who spend time having themselves

:40:17.:40:19.

photographed with tourists - to have great machine guns.

:40:20.:40:21.

There was an interesting debate the day afterwards,

:40:22.:40:26.

with the Prime Minister and others, arguing that, in a technical

:40:27.:40:29.

sense, the assailant didn't actually breach the Parliamentary security.

:40:30.:40:34.

But, obviously, if you look at the footage, and you were there,

:40:35.:40:37.

clearly, that body was a long way into the Parliamentary estate?

:40:38.:40:41.

First of all, I very much agree with Ben,

:40:42.:40:46.

that we shouldn't arm all of our police, because I think

:40:47.:40:49.

it's lovely they can stay there and talk with tourists

:40:50.:40:51.

But we've also got to protect those police.

:40:52.:40:56.

Normally, there is a policeman with a machine gun just back

:40:57.:41:01.

Now, how the assailant got in quite as far as he did, I don't know.

:41:02.:41:11.

I suspect the division bell went, at the gates opened, and,

:41:12.:41:14.

of course, all the ministers are coming back in to vote.

:41:15.:41:18.

And I suspect it was just by chance that he had that

:41:19.:41:21.

That's why, I suspect, we may have to look at not perhaps

:41:22.:41:27.

doing quite so much, we can do more at the outer gates,

:41:28.:41:30.

and then perhaps make sure we have a system where you come

:41:31.:41:33.

into a locked gate system and into the second part.

:41:34.:41:36.

I think the main thing is that our heart goes out to the police,

:41:37.:41:42.

they lost one of their own, and he was a really, really great

:41:43.:41:46.

Ben comes in on bicycle, so do I into Parliament -

:41:47.:41:51.

I don't cycle around my constituency, because it's

:41:52.:41:53.

But we need to make sure we protect our police,

:41:54.:42:01.

but we have armed police there, ready to take down an assailant.

:42:02.:42:05.

But somehow or other, those police that are right

:42:06.:42:08.

out with the public, they're great ambassadors,

:42:09.:42:12.

but they've got to be protected more than they are at the moment.

:42:13.:42:17.

Would the NHS be better off if it was funded

:42:18.:42:19.

Sarah Wollaston, the chair of the Health Select Committee,

:42:20.:42:23.

thinks so and told this programme it was time to consider ring fencing

:42:24.:42:26.

National Insurance to pay for the apparently endlessly rising

:42:27.:42:30.

More patients than at any time in NHS history.

:42:31.:42:39.

Worried relatives, medical staff under pressure and a political row

:42:40.:42:43.

about whether NHS funding is keeping up with demand.

:42:44.:42:48.

I'm going to go and see what I can do to shift beds and create space.

:42:49.:42:52.

Fresh from one winter crunch point, the Government already appears

:42:53.:42:54.

Experience has shown that on-site GP triage in A departments can

:42:55.:43:01.

have a significant and positive impact on A waiting times.

:43:02.:43:08.

I'm therefore making a further ?100 million of capital available

:43:09.:43:12.

immediately for new triage projects at English hospitals

:43:13.:43:17.

Something similar already happens in Plymouth.

:43:18.:43:23.

There are a number of potential benefits.

:43:24.:43:26.

The main benefit would be that patients should see the right

:43:27.:43:28.

practitioner first time, and not have to go through

:43:29.:43:30.

a complicated series of seeing different people before they finally

:43:31.:43:34.

see the doctor or nurse that can best meet their needs.

:43:35.:43:39.

But there are already fears about whether there will be enough

:43:40.:43:41.

GPs to make this work across England by next winter.

:43:42.:43:46.

And one Conservative MP, who also happens to be chair

:43:47.:43:50.

of the Health Select Committee, says it's time the NHS was directly

:43:51.:43:54.

I think there's much more support for these kinds of taxes if people

:43:55.:44:05.

So I do think, actually, that a hypothecated tax is a good idea,

:44:06.:44:11.

and I would like to see National Insurance repurposed

:44:12.:44:14.

as a health and social care insurance, and for that

:44:15.:44:20.

That is a huge change when it comes to public finances.

:44:21.:44:25.

Interestingly, National Insurance raises more

:44:26.:44:29.

For others, though, the situation is less

:44:30.:44:34.

about the rules of tax-and-spend, but about being straight

:44:35.:44:38.

If we're being honest with people, if we're being honest

:44:39.:44:44.

with the public, an up to 2p increase in tax

:44:45.:44:49.

would be necessary in order to save the NHS.

:44:50.:44:54.

That isn't Lib Dem policy yet, but it is a measure of just how

:44:55.:44:58.

seriously some are taking the health of the NHS.

:44:59.:45:03.

Neil, have you got any sympathy with your Conservative colleague's

:45:04.:45:06.

view there that there should be some ring-fenced tax?

:45:07.:45:09.

She says that should be National Insurance.

:45:10.:45:11.

I think it's an interesting idea to ring fence a tax.

:45:12.:45:14.

Whether National Insurance is the right one, in the end

:45:15.:45:17.

I think it probably would have to be income tax.

:45:18.:45:19.

You think people might be persuaded...?

:45:20.:45:21.

I think they might be, because what has happened,

:45:22.:45:23.

and naturally it's bound to be a political football,

:45:24.:45:26.

health, by its very nature, we all need health care

:45:27.:45:30.

and the amount we spend on it is a political issue -

:45:31.:45:33.

but I think, because more money is pouring in,

:45:34.:45:36.

and success governments will have to pour more money in,

:45:37.:45:39.

perhaps it is actually time to look at this.

:45:40.:45:42.

But if you start, health has a tax, defence has a tax,

:45:43.:45:46.

What we do accept is that we will have to review how much

:45:47.:45:54.

we spend on the health service, because we're all getting older,

:45:55.:46:00.

That's the Lib Dem's contention, that you need to be honest.

:46:01.:46:10.

It's not an easy one to deal with, because people like the service.

:46:11.:46:13.

They don't necessarily want to pay the tax,

:46:14.:46:17.

But let's have this debate, because I think it's clear that

:46:18.:46:22.

all of us want the health service to succeed.

:46:23.:46:27.

And it's case of not only managing the health service,

:46:28.:46:30.

And we're putting more money in, but the cost of pensions

:46:31.:46:36.

and the cost of everything is going up.

:46:37.:46:38.

Ben, you look at the Labour party's website today,

:46:39.:46:44.

on the front page, save the NHS, save it from the Tories,

:46:45.:46:47.

But how are you going to do this, how would you provide this funding?

:46:48.:46:51.

It's great that Neil and Sarah and other Conservative MPs

:46:52.:46:55.

Not just for the NHS, but for social care.

:46:56.:47:00.

When we left office, we had NHS funding up

:47:01.:47:02.

It's now gone back down again, and we're seeing

:47:03.:47:06.

As Neil says, we have a growing, elderly population,

:47:07.:47:10.

We have to have a long-term, sustainable solution.

:47:11.:47:14.

I'm not sure that hypothecation is necessarily the answer,

:47:15.:47:17.

partly for the reasons Neil's already given,

:47:18.:47:19.

but if there was a recession, for example, does that

:47:20.:47:22.

mean the money's then going to go down for the NHS?

:47:23.:47:24.

But you do need to do something, and I think you need

:47:25.:47:27.

to look at everything, whether it's is combination

:47:28.:47:29.

of income, National Insurance tax, more sin taxes - like the sugar tax

:47:30.:47:32.

that the Health Committee recommended that has now been

:47:33.:47:36.

adopted by the Government, already been very successful

:47:37.:47:38.

Well, you can think of a number of things, can't you -

:47:39.:47:43.

fat, sugars, salt, things that are bad for you.

:47:44.:47:45.

I think the public would accept that perhaps more than income tax,

:47:46.:47:48.

And I don't think we should rule out the idea that we had

:47:49.:47:53.

when we were in Government for social care, of some kind

:47:54.:47:56.

Because if you invest in public health -

:47:57.:48:07.

which I think is the other mistake this Government's made,

:48:08.:48:10.

it's cut funding for public health - so, illness prevention,

:48:11.:48:12.

then you actually reduce long-term demand on the NHS.

:48:13.:48:14.

So our obesity report, which is coming out this weekend,

:48:15.:48:17.

which is very critical of the Government inaction,

:48:18.:48:19.

says that if you spend a bit more on tackling obesity,

:48:20.:48:21.

you save a lot more for the NHS in the long run.

:48:22.:48:24.

I don't want to get too aggressive with Ben, but don't forget,

:48:25.:48:29.

we did have a huge deficit, over ?50,000 million

:48:30.:48:32.

It's all very well to spend the money, but we've got to spend

:48:33.:48:38.

So I think there will have to be some link.

:48:39.:48:43.

If we were linking this tax with the health spending,

:48:44.:48:45.

it's got to be linked somehow to the economy as well

:48:46.:48:48.

OK, alongside the financial strain on the NHS, there's a huge

:48:49.:48:52.

problem with staffing, both the Lib Dems and

:48:53.:48:54.

the British Medical Association are warning that Brexit

:48:55.:48:57.

Here's Dr Jeeves Wijesuriya, who is chairman of the junior doctor's

:48:58.:49:04.

We've done a recent survey of EU doctors that are working

:49:05.:49:09.

here in the UK, and the implications of Brexit are absolutely huge.

:49:10.:49:13.

Four in ten EU-trained doctors feel that they will have to leave

:49:14.:49:17.

the health service and will leave working in this country

:49:18.:49:20.

because of the possible implications of Brexit.

:49:21.:49:27.

He was making the point that there is a staffing crisis at the moment.

:49:28.:49:34.

And he says this is only going to get potentially much worse if this

:49:35.:49:41.

situation with EU nationals isn't sorted?

:49:42.:49:43.

I have made this point are ready, in fact I raised it with the Health

:49:44.:49:47.

Secretary in the Commons, and the solution to this is to reassure sent

:49:48.:49:51.

to EU nationals are currently work in the health service or social care

:49:52.:49:56.

that they will be able to save. Again, very just satisfactory answer

:49:57.:50:00.

from the Health Secretary. They need to make this a priority once

:50:01.:50:03.

negotiations start. I think Ben is right, but whether

:50:04.:50:08.

Government's also right is that we can't agree to that until we have a

:50:09.:50:12.

reciprocal arrangement with what's hanging with our guys across Europe.

:50:13.:50:21.

Otherwise we shall run out of staff. Not just in health service, it's

:50:22.:50:26.

across the whole industry. Wanted to ask you about that,

:50:27.:50:30.

because last week the Immigration Minister was suggesting that in

:50:31.:50:37.

terms of agricultural work, we could be up skilling native workers to do

:50:38.:50:40.

that. Is the Government likely to be banging the drum in a big way in

:50:41.:50:45.

terms of health staff? Saying we can train our own doctors and that will

:50:46.:50:48.

solve the problem? We can try, and we can do more to

:50:49.:50:54.

solve the problem. When it comes to doctors and nurses, we have a pool

:50:55.:50:59.

we can get native workers into. When it comes to picking vegetables or

:51:00.:51:04.

whatever, there isn't an massive amount of people that really want

:51:05.:51:08.

those particularly jobs are available for those particular jobs.

:51:09.:51:12.

Meat processing, factories, you name it. There's a big in my constituency

:51:13.:51:18.

where 70% of the workers are Eastern European. What we are saying and the

:51:19.:51:24.

moment is that there is enough Labour, but we've got to work very

:51:25.:51:29.

quickly. And as far as the health service is concerned, I think we

:51:30.:51:33.

have more of a chance to get more home-grown labour in there. But it's

:51:34.:51:37.

not easy, and the Government's got to be ready to move quickly.

:51:38.:51:42.

What happens if these people have already gone back?

:51:43.:51:46.

The Immigration Minister was saying to us last week that the figures

:51:47.:51:51.

don't show that. Some of the figures are up as far as September, and some

:51:52.:51:55.

as far as December. I think we're got to look through this next period

:51:56.:51:58.

and make sure that people are still coming. Barbarians and remaining is

:51:59.:52:02.

into becoming reasonably freely here. -- Bulgarians and Romanians

:52:03.:52:08.

seem to becoming reasonably freely here. Others not so much.

:52:09.:52:15.

Is this more moaning scaremongering, some people would say?

:52:16.:52:23.

No. There are fewer applications, staff shortages across the health

:52:24.:52:25.

sector. Even the president of the commission said we should settle

:52:26.:52:33.

this now, it's amoral issue. If you -- it's a moral issue. If you look

:52:34.:52:37.

at the pension liability and other at the pension liability and other

:52:38.:52:40.

issues going forward, this will not be easy. It has the potential to be

:52:41.:52:44.

a complete disaster. a complete disaster.

:52:45.:52:47.

But had to make sure it works, But had to make sure it works,

:52:48.:52:51.

because we are Brexiting, and it has to work.

:52:52.:52:53.

Some local MP's are calling for the Government to review

:52:54.:52:55.

the DVLA's practice of selling drivers details

:52:56.:52:57.

The issue was debated in the House of Commons following claims some

:52:58.:53:01.

private companies are intimidating and hounding drivers to pay fines.

:53:02.:53:03.

The DVLA only supplies details to companies

:53:04.:53:05.

which are accredited by a trade body, but Torbay MP

:53:06.:53:07.

Kevin Foster says the standards are not high enough.

:53:08.:53:10.

Barry, Hazel and Jonathan - three Torbay residents

:53:11.:53:16.

who took their battle over a parking fine to their MP.

:53:17.:53:21.

I've been issued with a ?100 fine for overstaying in the Marina

:53:22.:53:24.

I know that's not the case, because I have a ticket to prove that.

:53:25.:53:34.

I was sent a fine for missing off, apparently, the first digit

:53:35.:53:37.

I didn't put my whole registration number in.

:53:38.:53:40.

The fine was eventually reduced to 30.

:53:41.:53:43.

All three wrote at the local MP, Kevin Foster, to complain.

:53:44.:53:46.

And this week, the Tory called on the Government

:53:47.:53:48.

I think the suspicion is the cowboy clampers have become the cowboy

:53:49.:53:54.

And whilst they may wish to leave their spur marks on

:53:55.:53:59.

car parks across the country, I hope the Minister will be clear

:54:00.:54:02.

of what action will be taken to make sure they have to ride off

:54:03.:54:06.

Now, Kevin Foster has received more complaints about this car park,

:54:07.:54:13.

and Crossways in Paignton, then any other in his patch.

:54:14.:54:17.

Now that I've parked, I am entering into a legal agreement

:54:18.:54:26.

with the company which runs this car park.

:54:27.:54:29.

Now that I've parked, I am entering into a legal agreement

:54:30.:54:31.

with the company which runs this car park.

:54:32.:54:34.

I have to abide by their terms and conditions.

:54:35.:54:36.

If I don't abide by these terms and conditions -

:54:37.:54:47.

staying late for example - DVLA will send my registered

:54:48.:54:50.

details to the company which runs this car park,

:54:51.:54:53.

and then the company will issue me a fine.

:54:54.:54:58.

That's all very well if the car park's being run properly.

:54:59.:55:01.

But some MPs say they know of cases around

:55:02.:55:05.

the country where drivers are being penalised unfairly.

:55:06.:55:08.

People are duped into false charges and harassed

:55:09.:55:10.

by firms who manage, somehow, to get hold

:55:11.:55:13.

of their personal information, whether through the DVLA, or,

:55:14.:55:18.

as mentioned earlier, through other sources.

:55:19.:55:21.

But a trade body which oversees private operators says the DVLA

:55:22.:55:25.

will only pass on details to companies which have

:55:26.:55:28.

We've had a great number of members who halve applied

:55:29.:55:33.

Unfortunately, anyone who isn't willing to work within the confines

:55:34.:55:37.

of our code of practice or engage to the high standards

:55:38.:55:40.

that we require, doesn't get past the first stage.

:55:41.:55:45.

Premier Park, which runs this car park, says it's happy

:55:46.:55:48.

to meet with Mr Foster to discuss any issues.

:55:49.:55:52.

But only time will tell us if the Government

:55:53.:55:54.

will change its regulations in the sector.

:55:55.:56:06.

Ben, because you're a famous cyclist, do you have any sympathy

:56:07.:56:11.

with these motorists? I've had examples of over officious

:56:12.:56:16.

car parking agencies chasing constituents. There's balance to be

:56:17.:56:22.

struck care. You had a guy on the film there from the organisations

:56:23.:56:25.

that represents car parks that says we won't accept some of these

:56:26.:56:32.

operators into our operation. I think that's the route to go down.

:56:33.:56:36.

But people shouldn't be able to get away with breaking the law are

:56:37.:56:40.

taking up a parking space owners could use when they haven't paid for

:56:41.:56:46.

it. There's balance to be made. Is the balance correct?

:56:47.:56:50.

Not quite, they come in and I as quickly as they can, they don't get

:56:51.:56:54.

as much leeway, not as much as public car parks would. I think they

:56:55.:56:59.

need to be restricted in their ambitions, echoes they're very much,

:57:00.:57:02.

the quicker they get you, the more they can charge you. They're

:57:03.:57:07.

enormous charges people are having to pay, ridiculous fines.

:57:08.:57:13.

At the trade body enough though? Probably not, and probably not

:57:14.:57:17.

perhaps making enough noise about it. I also think perhaps, sometimes,

:57:18.:57:27.

where are the revenues going from these vast charges? Mummers Day of

:57:28.:57:36.

it's another issue, because in the end looks as if they're penalised

:57:37.:57:40.

hugely with massive fines, I think they've got a fair gripe.

:57:41.:57:42.

Time now for our regular round-up of the political week in 60 seconds.

:57:43.:57:50.

A public meeting was told about last-ditch efforts

:57:51.:57:52.

to save the only care home on the Isles of Scilly.

:57:53.:57:55.

If the home closes, elderly people face a move to the mainland.

:57:56.:57:59.

It's splitting my family, it is making them out of reach.

:58:00.:58:02.

When they need me, they need me, and I won't be there.

:58:03.:58:07.

Devon County Council's Tory leader is launching a petition to get

:58:08.:58:10.

school funding debated again in the Commons.

:58:11.:58:13.

Tory backbenchers are far from happy with the way

:58:14.:58:16.

the Government's handling this increasingly toxic issue.

:58:17.:58:21.

It would be a very poor reflection on us if standards went down

:58:22.:58:24.

simply because we're not able to supply children with the teachers

:58:25.:58:27.

they need and with the support staff they need and with

:58:28.:58:30.

And that's something that I, as a Conservative MP,

:58:31.:58:33.

There's been more concern about mobile phone coverage

:58:34.:58:40.

One MP is saying the lack of connectivity is leaving

:58:41.:58:44.

And there's plenty of anger from consumers too.

:58:45.:58:54.

Neil, I think you are the MP saying you think constituents

:58:55.:58:57.

are being left in the dark ages because of mobile phone coverage?

:58:58.:59:00.

Because we were having a debate, or I was going to have a debate

:59:01.:59:05.

when we were locked in the chamber because of the terrorist attack,

:59:06.:59:08.

but it is a case of making sure they share properly, the companies.

:59:09.:59:11.

And some are getting broadband, the most rural areas, will be

:59:12.:59:17.

I think partly it's because the companies

:59:18.:59:21.

And I know the Government doesn't want to go there,

:59:22.:59:25.

but roaming, so that you go from one company to the other.

:59:26.:59:28.

Because in some areas in the countryside, Orange or O2

:59:29.:59:32.

or the other networks will work better in certain areas.

:59:33.:59:36.

I used to travel across the continent, I could change

:59:37.:59:39.

countries and get another roaming and the phone never went.

:59:40.:59:43.

But drive into the Blackdown Hills, and your signal goes entirely.

:59:44.:59:47.

Not that Ben does that on his bicycle very often.

:59:48.:59:51.

The school funding issue, of course, very dominant this week again.

:59:52.:59:57.

And, frankly, a lot of stony-faced Conservative MPs

:59:58.:00:04.

as the Prime Minister was defending what the Government's doing.

:00:05.:00:08.

I did warn ministers a couple of years ago when they said

:00:09.:00:12.

they said they wanted to change the formula -

:00:13.:00:14.

which we all support - at the same time cutting

:00:15.:00:16.

funding to schools overall, as they are, by 7%.

:00:17.:00:21.

It's the very worst time to fiddle around with the formula,

:00:22.:00:24.

because you create more losers than you do winners,

:00:25.:00:29.

Because nobody's really happy with the thing, are they?

:00:30.:00:35.

The main thing is that we invested more in schools across the piece,

:00:36.:00:38.

so all schools were getting more money...

:00:39.:00:40.

We did have more money, because we were running,

:00:41.:00:44.

until the financial crash, we had the long this period

:00:45.:00:46.

of sustained growth, noninflationary growth,

:00:47.:00:47.

Yeah, but not because of the overspending, Neil,

:00:48.:00:53.

because of the global financial crash.

:00:54.:00:55.

The schools weren't complaining, the schools were getting better,

:00:56.:01:01.

attainment was getting better, and investment was going in.

:01:02.:01:05.

We've now seen the biggest cut since the 1950s in our schools,

:01:06.:01:08.

and this lot are doing nothing about it.

:01:09.:01:14.

Neil, are you as cross as many of your colleagues?

:01:15.:01:16.

Pretty well, because I think it's a case of more money and some

:01:17.:01:19.

The trouble is partly one of the problems is the Government's

:01:20.:01:23.

been to prescriptive or the county and how we spend it

:01:24.:01:25.

So it's combination assembly that is, because we make sure

:01:26.:01:29.

at the next generation is better educated than we were and so on.

:01:30.:01:32.

Is the Government going to get out of this hole, do you think?

:01:33.:01:35.

I would have thought that if we upped the temperature,

:01:36.:01:37.

we would get something out of the Government.

:01:38.:01:39.

It doesn't have a very big majority, and think perhaps

:01:40.:01:42.

can see you nodding in agreement but we don't have any more time! Thank

:01:43.:01:49.

you both for coming in, Andrew, back to you.

:01:50.:01:55.

So yesterday the European Union celebrated its 60th birthday

:01:56.:02:12.

at a party in Rome, the city where the founding document

:02:13.:02:15.

Leaders of 27 EU countries were there to mark the occasion -

:02:16.:02:19.

overshadowing it, though, the continued terrorist threat,

:02:20.:02:21.

And on Wednesday Theresa May, who wasn't in Rome yesterday,

:02:22.:02:24.

will trigger Article 50, formally starting

:02:25.:02:25.

The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk,

:02:26.:02:29.

made an appeal for unity at the gathering.

:02:30.:02:35.

Today in Rome, we are renewing the unique alliance of free nations

:02:36.:02:40.

that was initiated 60 years ago by our great predecessors.

:02:41.:02:48.

At that time, they did not discuss multiple speeds,

:02:49.:02:51.

they did not devise exits, but despite all the tragic

:02:52.:02:55.

circumstances of the recent history they placed all their faith

:02:56.:02:57.

Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that has the Council of ministers, and on

:02:58.:03:17.

that council where every member of the EU sits he is an important

:03:18.:03:21.

figure in what is now about to happen. We have got to negotiate our

:03:22.:03:25.

divorce terms, we've got to agree a new free trade deal, new

:03:26.:03:31.

crime-fighting arrangements, we've got to repatriate 50 international

:03:32.:03:35.

trade agreements, and all of that has to be ratified within two years,

:03:36.:03:40.

by 27 other countries. Can that really happen?! I don't think it is

:03:41.:03:47.

inconceivable because it is in the interests of those 27 EU member

:03:48.:03:50.

states to try and negotiate a deal that we can all live with, because

:03:51.:03:54.

that would be preferable to Britain crashing out within two years. But I

:03:55.:03:59.

think this is why Labour's position is becoming increasingly incoherent.

:04:00.:04:02.

Keir Starmer has briefed today that he will be making a speech tomorrow

:04:03.:04:08.

setting out six conditions which he wants the deal to meet, otherwise

:04:09.:04:11.

Labour won't vote for it, but if Labour doesn't vote for it that

:04:12.:04:29.

doesn't mean we will be able to negotiate an extension, that would

:04:30.:04:33.

be incredibly difficult and require the consent of each of the 27 member

:04:34.:04:35.

states, so if Labour votes against it we will just crash out, it is

:04:36.:04:38.

effectively Labour saying no deal is better than a poor deal, which is

:04:39.:04:41.

not supposed to be their position. Labour's position may be incoherent

:04:42.:04:43.

but I was not asking about their position, I was asking about the

:04:44.:04:45.

Government's position. The man heading the Badila said he wants it

:04:46.:04:48.

ready by October next year so that it can go through the ratification

:04:49.:04:50.

process, people looking at this would think it is Mission:

:04:51.:04:54.

Impossible. It seems impossible to me to be done in that time. The fact

:04:55.:04:59.

that it is 27 countries, the whole of the European Parliament as well,

:05:00.:05:04.

there will be too many people throbbing spanners in the works and

:05:05.:05:09.

quite rightly. We have embarked on something that is truly terrible and

:05:10.:05:14.

disastrous, and the imagery we can have of those 27 countries

:05:15.:05:19.

celebrating together 60 years of the most extraordinary successful

:05:20.:05:22.

movement for peace, for shared European values, and others not

:05:23.:05:29.

there... We were not there at the start either, and we are not there

:05:30.:05:33.

now! And we have been bad partners while we were inside, but now that

:05:34.:05:39.

we are leaving... They did not look like it was a birthday party to me!

:05:40.:05:45.

I think it was, there was a sense of renewal, Europe exists as a place

:05:46.:05:51.

envied in the world for its values, for its peacefulness, that is why

:05:52.:05:54.

people flocked to its borders, that is why they come here. Can you look

:05:55.:06:00.

at the agenda that faces the UK Government and EU 27, is it not

:06:01.:06:05.

possible, in fact even likely, that as the process comes to an end they

:06:06.:06:12.

will have to agree on a number of areas of transitional arrangements?

:06:13.:06:16.

I think they will and they will have to agree that soon, I would not be

:06:17.:06:20.

surprised if sometime soon there is an understanding is not a formal

:06:21.:06:23.

decision that this is a process that will extend over something closer to

:06:24.:06:28.

buy or seven than two years. On Wednesday article 50 will be filed

:06:29.:06:32.

and there will be lots of excitement and hubbub but nothing concrete can

:06:33.:06:35.

happen for a while. Elections in France in May, elections in Germany

:06:36.:06:39.

which could really result in a change of Government... That is the

:06:40.:06:52.

big change, Mrs Merkel might not be there by October. And who foresaw

:06:53.:06:55.

that a few months ago? So you might be into 28 Dean before you are into

:06:56.:06:57.

the substantive discussions about how much market access or regulatory

:06:58.:07:00.

observance. I cannot see it being completed in two years. I could see,

:07:01.:07:03.

if negotiations are not too acrimonious, that transitional

:07:04.:07:07.

agreement taking place. Let's look at the timetable again. The council

:07:08.:07:10.

doesn't meet until the end of April, it meets in the middle of the French

:07:11.:07:14.

elections, the first round will have taken place, they will need a second

:07:15.:07:17.

round so not much can happen. President Hollande will be

:07:18.:07:24.

representing France, then the new French government, if it is Marine

:07:25.:07:29.

le Pen all bets are off, but even if it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a

:07:30.:07:33.

party, he will not have a majority, the French will take a long while to

:07:34.:07:37.

sort out themselves. Then it is summer, we are off to the Cote

:07:38.:07:42.

d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian elite, then we come back from that

:07:43.:07:45.

and the Germans are in an election, it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no

:07:46.:07:51.

longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr Schultz, he may have to try to form

:07:52.:08:04.

a difficult green red coalition, that would take a while. Before you

:08:05.:08:07.

know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and no substance has taken place, yet we

:08:08.:08:10.

are then less than a year before this has to be decided. It is a big

:08:11.:08:13.

task and I'm sure Jana is right that there will be transitional

:08:14.:08:15.

arrangements and not everything will be concluded in that two year

:08:16.:08:19.

timetable, but in some respects what you have described helps those of us

:08:20.:08:23.

on the Eurosceptic site because it means they cannot really be a

:08:24.:08:26.

meaningful parliamentary vote on the terms of the deal because nothing is

:08:27.:08:30.

going to be agreed quickly enough for them to be able to go back and

:08:31.:08:34.

agree something else if Parliament rejects it, so when the Government

:08:35.:08:38.

eventually have something ready to bring before Parliament it will be a

:08:39.:08:42.

take it or leave it boat. How extraordinary that people who have

:08:43.:08:47.

campaigned. Indeed give us our country back and say, isn't it

:08:48.:08:50.

wonderful, we won't have a meaningful boat for our

:08:51.:08:54.

parliamentarians of the most important... We don't know what the

:08:55.:08:59.

negotiation, the package is, day by day we see more and more complicated

:09:00.:09:02.

areas nobody ever thought about, nobody mentioned during the

:09:03.:09:06.

campaign, all of which has to be resolved and the European Council

:09:07.:09:12.

and the negotiators say nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

:09:13.:09:17.

You lead us into a catastrophe. There will be plenty of opportunity

:09:18.:09:23.

for Parliament to have its say following the introduction of the

:09:24.:09:25.

Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if there will be no Parliamentary time

:09:26.:09:29.

devoted. The final package is what counts. We have two years to blog

:09:30.:09:33.

about this! There was a big Proview -- pro-EU

:09:34.:09:44.

march yesterday... I was there! Polly Toynbee was there, down to

:09:45.:09:49.

Parliament Square, lots of people there marching in favour of the

:09:50.:09:54.

European Union. We can see the EU flags there on flags, lots of

:09:55.:09:59.

national flags as well, the British one. Polly, is it the aim of people

:10:00.:10:08.

like you still to stop Brexit, or to soften Brexit? I think the aim is

:10:09.:10:13.

for the best you can possibly do to limit the damage. Of course, if it

:10:14.:10:18.

happens that once people have had a chance to see how much they were

:10:19.:10:22.

lied to during the campaign and how dreadful the deal is likely to be,

:10:23.:10:26.

if it happens that enough people in the population have changed their

:10:27.:10:29.

minds, then maybe... There is no sign up yet. But we have not even

:10:30.:10:35.

begun, people have not begun to confront what it is going to mean.

:10:36.:10:39.

Wait and see. I think it is just being as close as we can. Is that

:10:40.:10:44.

credible, do you think, to stop it or to ameliorate it in terms of the

:10:45.:10:49.

Remainers? I think it is far more credible to try and stop it but even

:10:50.:10:54.

then the scope is limited. It is fairly apparent Theresa May's

:10:55.:10:57.

interpretation of the referendum is the country wants an end to free

:10:58.:11:16.

movement, there is probably no way of doing that inside the single

:11:17.:11:19.

market. She also wants external trade deals, no way of doing that

:11:20.:11:22.

outside the customs unit, said the only night you can depend if you are

:11:23.:11:25.

pro-European is, let's not leave without any trade pact, at least

:11:26.:11:27.

let's meet Canada and have a formalised trade agreement. The idea

:11:28.:11:30.

of ace -- of a very soft exit is gone now because the public really

:11:31.:11:33.

did want an end to free movement and the Government really does want

:11:34.:11:35.

external trade deals. It depends what changes in Europe. I think the

:11:36.:11:42.

momentum behind the Remoaning movement will move away. One of the

:11:43.:11:46.

banners I saw being held up yesterday by a young boy on the news

:11:47.:11:50.

was, don't put my daddy on a boat. It gets a lot of its moral force

:11:51.:11:55.

from the uncertainty surrounding the fate of EU nationals here and our

:11:56.:12:00.

resident in the remainder of the EU and I think David Lidington is right

:12:01.:12:04.

that it will be concluded quite quickly once negotiations start and

:12:05.:12:07.

that will take a lot of the heat and momentum out of the remaining

:12:08.:12:11.

movement. Why didn't Theresa May allow that amendment that said, we

:12:12.:12:17.

will do that, as an act of generosity, we will say, of course

:12:18.:12:20.

those European citizens here are welcome to stay? It would have been

:12:21.:12:25.

such a good opening move in the negotiations, instead of which she

:12:26.:12:29.

blocked it. It does not augur well. I have interviewed many Tories about

:12:30.:12:35.

this and put that point to them but they often say the Prime minister's

:12:36.:12:42.

job is to look after UK citizen in the EU... Bargaining chips, I think

:12:43.:12:45.

you have to be generous and you have to wish you people in Spain and

:12:46.:12:50.

everywhere else where there are British citizens would have

:12:51.:12:53.

responded. The British Government did try and raise that with their EU

:12:54.:12:56.

counterparts and were told, we cannot begin to talk about that

:12:57.:13:00.

until article 50 has been triggered. Next week we will be able to talk

:13:01.:13:04.

about it. How generous it would have been, we would have started on a

:13:05.:13:08.

better note. Didn't happen, we will see what happens next with EU

:13:09.:13:13.

citizens. That is it for today, the Daily Politics will be back tomorrow

:13:14.:13:17.

at midday and every day next week on BBC Two as always.

:13:18.:13:20.

And there's also a Question Time special live tomorrow

:13:21.:13:22.

night from Birmingham - with guests including

:13:23.:13:23.

the Brexit Secretary David Davis, Labour's Keir Starmer,

:13:24.:13:25.

former Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the SNP's Alex Salmond -

:13:26.:13:28.

I'll be back next week at 11am here on BBC One.

:13:29.:13:34.

Until then, remember - if it's Sunday, it's

:13:35.:13:37.

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