Browse content similar to 01/12/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. George Osborne | :00:36. | :00:45. | |
announces a ?50 cut to annual household energy bills. We'll talk | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
to Lib Dem president Tim Farron ahead of the Chancellor's mini | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
budget this week. Net immigration is up for the first | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
time in two years. Labour and the Tories say they want to bring it | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
down, but how? Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper joins us for the | :01:02. | :01:10. | |
Sunday Interview. The harder you shake the pack, the easier it will | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
be for some cornflakes to get to the top. The Mayor of London says | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
inequality and greed are essential to spur economic activity. | :01:19. | :01:31. | |
capital is now a crisis. Another week, another strategy? Can this one | :01:32. | :01:43. | |
deliver? And with me throughout today's | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
programme, well, we've shaken the packet and look who's risen to the | :01:47. | :01:53. | |
top. Or did we open it at the bottom? Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
and Sam Coates. All three will be tweeting throughout the programme | :01:57. | :02:05. | |
using the hashtag #bbcsp. So, after weeks in which Ed Miliband's promise | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
to freeze energy prices has set the Westminster agenda, the Coalition | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
Government is finally coming up with its answer. This morning the | :02:12. | :02:13. | |
Chancellor George Osborne explained how he plans to cut household energy | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
bills by an average of fifty quid. What we're going to do is roll back | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
the levees that are placed by government on people's electricity | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
bills. This will mean that for the average bill payer, they will have | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
?50 of those electricity and gas bills. That will help families. We | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
are doing it in the way that government can do it. We are | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
controlling the cost that families incurred because of government | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
policies. We are doing it in a way that will not damage the environment | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
or reduce our commitment to dealing with climate change. We will not | :02:47. | :02:53. | |
produce commit men to helping low-income families with the cost of | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
living. Janan, we are finally seeing the coalition begin to play its hand | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
in response to the Ed Miliband freeze? They have been trying to | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
respond for almost ten weeks and older responses have been quite | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
fiddly. We are going to take a bit of tax year, put it onto general | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
taxation, have a conversation with the energy companies, engineered a | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
rebate of some kind, this is not very vivid. The advantage of the | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
idea that they have announced overnight is that it is clear and it | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
has a nice round figure attached to it, ?50. The chief of staff of | :03:30. | :03:38. | |
President Obama, he said, if you are explaining, you're losing. The | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
genius of this idea is that it does not require explanation. He would | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
not drawn this morning on what agreement he had with the energy | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
companies, and whether this would fall through to the bottom of the | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
bill, but the way he spoke, saying, I am not going to pre-empt what the | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
energy companies say, that suggests he has something up his sleeve. Yes, | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
I thought so. The energy companies have made this so badly for so long. | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
It would be awful if he announced this and the energy companies said, | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
we are going to keep this money for ourselves. I do not think he is that | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
stupid. The energy companies have an incentive to go along with this, | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
don't they? My worry is that I am not sure how much it will be within | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
the opinion polls. I think people might expect this now, it is not a | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
new thing, it is not an exciting thing. Say in the markets, they may | :04:37. | :04:44. | |
have priced the ten already. If by Thursday of this week, he is able to | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
say, I have a ?50 cut coming to your bill. The energy companies have | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
guaranteed that this will fall through onto your energy bill, and | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
they have indicated to me that they themselves will not put up energy | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
prices through 2014, has he shot the Ed Miliband Fox? I think he has a | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
couple of challenges. It is still very hard. This is an answer for the | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
next 12 months but did is no chance announced that Labour will stop | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
saying they are going to freeze prices in the next Parliament. He | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
will say, I have not just frozen them, I have done that as well and I | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
have cut them. When people look at their energy bills, they are going | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
up by more than ?50. This is a reduction in the amount that they | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
are going up overall. Year on 08 will be for George Osborne. He will | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
have to come up with something this time next year. The detail in the | :05:43. | :05:49. | |
Sunday papers reveals that George Osborne is trying to get the energy | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
companies to put on bills that ?50 has been knocked off your bill | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
because of a reduction by the government. He is trying to get the | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
energy companies to do his political bidding for him. It will be | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
interesting to see if they go along with that, because then we will know | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
how cross the arm with Ed Miliband. Let's get another perspective. | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
Joining me now from Kendal in the Lake District is the president of | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Good | :06:20. | :06:28. | |
morning. Let me ask you this, the coalition is rowing back on green | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
taxes, I do comfortable with that or is it something else you will rebel | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
against? I am very comfortable with the fact we are protecting for the | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
money is going. I am open to where the money comes from. The notion | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
that we should stop insulating the homes of elderly people or stop | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
investing in British manufacturing in terms of green industry, that is | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
something that I resolutely oppose, but I am pleased that the funding | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
will be made available for all that. You cannot ignore the fact that for | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
a whole range of reasons, mostly down to the actions of the energy | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
companies, you have prices that are shooting up and affecting lots of | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
people, making life hard. You cannot ignore that. If we fund the | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
installation of homes for older people and others, if we protect | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
British manufacturing jobs, and raise the money through general | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
taxation, I am comfortable with that. It is not clear that is going | :07:30. | :07:36. | |
to happen. It looks like the eco-scheme, whereby the energy | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
companies pay for the installation of those on below-average incomes, | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
they will spin that out over four years, not two years, and one | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
estimate is that that will cost 10,000 jobs. You're always boasting | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
about your commitment to green jobs, how do square that? I do not believe | :07:54. | :08:01. | |
that. The roll-out will be longer. The number of houses reached will be | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
greater and that is a good thing. My take is that it will not affect the | :08:06. | :08:12. | |
number of jobs. People talk about green levies. There has been | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
disparaging language about that sort of thing. There are 2 million people | :08:17. | :08:24. | |
in this country in the lowest income families and they get ?230 off their | :08:25. | :08:32. | |
energy bills because of what isn't -- because of what is disparaging | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
the refer to as green stuff, shall we call it. There will be more | :08:37. | :08:43. | |
properties covered. We both know that your party is being pushed into | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
this by the Tories. You would not be doing this off your own bad. You are | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
in coalition with people who have jettisoned their green Prudential | :08:55. | :09:03. | |
is? -- credentials. You have made my point quite well. David Cameron's | :09:04. | :09:10. | |
panicked response to this over the last few months was to ditch all the | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
green stuff. It has been a job to make sure that we hold him to his | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
pledges and the green cord of this government. That is why we are not | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
scrapping the investment, we are making sure it is funded from | :09:24. | :09:31. | |
general taxation. I am talking to you from Kendal. Lots of people | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
struggle to pay their energy bills. But all these things pale into | :09:38. | :09:39. | |
insignificance compared to the threat of climate change and we must | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
hold the Prime Minister to account on this issue. Argue reconciled to | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
the idea that as long as you're in coalition with the Tories you will | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
never get a mansion tax? I am not reconciled to it. We are trying to | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
give off other tax cut to the lowest income people. What about the | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
mansion tax? That would be potentially paid for by another view | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
source of finance. That would be that the wealthy... We know that is | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
what you want, but you're not going to get that? We will keep fighting | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
for it. It is extremely important. We can show where we will get the | :10:21. | :10:30. | |
money from. I know that is the adamant. That is not what I asked | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
you. Ed Balls and Labour run in favour of a mansion tax, have you | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
talked to them about it? The honest answer is I have not. It is | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
interesting that they have come round to supporting our policy | :10:46. | :10:53. | |
having rejected it in power. So if Labour was the largest party in | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
parliament but not in power, you would have no problem agreeing with | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
a mansion tax as part of the deal? If the arithmetic falls in that way | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
and that is the will of the British people, fear taxes on those who are | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
wealthiest, stuff that is fear, which includes wealth taxes, in | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
order to fund more reductions for those people on lowest incomes, that | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
is the sort of thing that we might reach agreement on. You voted with | :11:22. | :11:29. | |
Labour on the spare room subsidy. Again, that would be job done in any | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
future coalition talks with Labour, correct? I take the view that the | :11:34. | :11:42. | |
spare room subsidy, whilst entirely fail in principle, in practice it | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
has caused immense hardship. I want to see that changed. There are many | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
people in government to share my view on that. So does Labour. The | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
problem was largely caused Labour because they oversaw an increase in | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
housing costs both 3.5 times while they were in power. The government | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
was forced into a position to tidy up an appalling mess that Labour | :12:08. | :12:14. | |
left. You voted with Labour against it, and also, you want... No, I | :12:15. | :12:24. | |
voted with the party conference. Let's not dance on the head of the | :12:25. | :12:33. | |
ten. Maybe they voted with me. -- on the head of a pin. You are also in | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
favour of a 50% top rate of income tax, so you and Labour are that one | :12:40. | :12:46. | |
there as well? No, I take the view that the top rate of income tax is a | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
fluid thing. All taxation levels are temporary. Nick Clegg said that when | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
the 50p rate came down to 45, that was a rather foolish price tag | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
George Osborne asked for in return for as increasing the threshold and | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
letting several million people out of paying income tax at the bottom. | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
So you agree with Labour? In favour of rising the tax to 50p. I take the | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
view that we should keep our minds open on that. It is not the income | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
tax level that bothers me, it is whether the wealthy pay their fresh | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
air. If that can be done through other taxes, then that is something | :13:30. | :13:38. | |
that I am happy with. -- their fair share. Given your position on the | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
top rate of tax, on the spare room subsidy, how does the prospect of | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
another five years of coalition with the Tories strike you? The answer | :13:49. | :13:56. | |
is, you react with whatever you have about you to what the electorate | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
hand you. Whatever happens after the next election, you have got to | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
respect the will of the people. Yes, but how do you feel about it? We | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
know about this, I am asking for your feeling. Does your heart left | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
or does your heart fall at the prospect of another five years with | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
the Tories? My heart would always follow the prospect of anything | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
other than a majority of Liberal Democrat government. Your heart must | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
be permanently in your shoes then. Something like that, but when all is | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
said and done, we accept the will of the electorate. When you stand for | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
election, you have got to put up with what the electorate say. I have | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
not found coalition as difficult as you might suggest. It is about | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
people who have to disagree and agree to differ. You work with | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
people in your daily life that you disagree with. It is what grown-ups | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
do. A lot of people in your party think that your positioning yourself | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
to be the left-wing candidate in a post-Nick Clegg leadership contest. | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
They think it is blatant manoeuvring. One senior figure says, | :15:10. | :15:27. | |
this is about you. Which bit of the sanctimonious, treacherous little | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
man is there not to like? What can I see in response to that. My job is | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
to promote the Liberal Democrats. I have to do my best to consider what | :15:37. | :15:43. | |
I'd defend to be right. By and large, my position as an MP in the | :15:44. | :15:51. | |
Lake District, but also as the president of the party, is to | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
reflect the will of people outside the Westminster village. That is the | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
important thing to do. Thank you for joining us. David Cameron has said | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
he wants to get it down to the tens of thousands, Ed Miliband has | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
admitted New Labour "got it wrong", and Nick Clegg wants to be | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
"zero-tolerant towards abuse". Yes, immigration is back on the political | :16:14. | :16:15. | |
agenda, with figures released earlier this week showing that net | :16:16. | :16:18. | |
migration is on the rise for the first time in two years. And that's | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
not the only reason politicians are talking about it again. | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
The issue of immigration has come into sharp focus because of concerns | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
about the number of remaining ins and Bulgarians that can come to the | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
UK next year. EU citizenship grants the right to free movement within | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
the EU. But when Bulgaria and Romania joined in 2007, the | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
government took up its right to apply temporary restrictions on | :16:47. | :16:47. | |
movement. They must be lifted apply temporary restrictions on | :16:48. | :16:57. | |
end of this year. According to the 2011 census, about one eyed 1 | :16:58. | :16:58. | |
million of the population in England and Wales is made up of people from | :16:59. | :17:05. | |
countries who joined the EU in 2004. The government has played down | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
expectations that the skill of migration could be repeated. This | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
week David Cameron announced new restrictions on the ability of EU | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
migrants to claim benefits. That was two, send a message. That prompted | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
criticism is that the UK risks being seen as a nasty country. Yvette | :17:25. | :17:33. | |
Cooper joins me now for the Sunday interview. Welcome to the Sunday | :17:34. | :17:39. | |
Politics, Yvette Cooper. You criticised the coalition for not | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
acting sooner on immigration from Romania and Bulgaria but the | :17:45. | :17:47. | |
timetable for the unrestricted arrival in January was agreed under | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
Labour many years ago, and given the battle that you had with the Polish | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
and the Hungarians, what preparations did you make in power? | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
We think that we should learn from some of the things that happened | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
with migration. It would have been better to have transitional controls | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
in place and look at the impact of what happened. But what preparations | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
did you make in power? We set out a series of measures that the | :18:15. | :18:16. | |
Government still had time to bring in. It is important that this should | :18:17. | :18:23. | |
be a calm and measured debate. There was time to bring in measures around | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
benefit restrictions, for example, and looking at the impact on the | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
labour market, to make sure you do not have exploitation of cheap | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
migrant Labour which is bad for everyone. I know that but I have | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
asked you before and I am asking again, what did you do? We got | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
things wrong in Government. I understand that I am not arguing. | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
You are criticising them not preparing, a legitimate criticism, | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
but what did you do in power? Well, I did think we did enough. Did you | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
do anything? We signed the agency workers directive but too slowly. We | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
needed measures like that. We did support things like the social | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
chapter and the minimum wage, but I have said before that we did not do | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
enough and that is why we recommended the measures in March. I | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
understand that is what you did in opposition and I take that. I put | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
the general point to you that given your failure to introduce controls | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
on the countries that joined in 2004, alone among the major EU | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
economies we did that, should we not keep an embarrassed silence on these | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
matters? You have no credibility. I think you have got to talk about | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
immigration. One of the things we did not do in Government was | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
discussed immigration and the concerns people have and the | :19:48. | :19:55. | |
long-term benefits that we know have come from people who have come to | :19:56. | :19:57. | |
Britain over many generations contributing to Britain and having a | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
big impact. I think we recognise that there are things that we did | :20:01. | :20:03. | |
wrong, but it would be irresponsible for us not to join the debate and | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
suggest sensible, practical measures that you can introduce now to | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
address the concerns that people have, but also make sure that the | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
system is fair and managed. Immigration is important to Britain | :20:18. | :20:19. | |
but it does have to be controlled and managed in the right way. Let's | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
remind ourselves of your record on immigration. The chart you did not | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
consult when in power. This is total net migration per year under Labour. | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
2.2 million of net rise in migration, more than the population | :20:35. | :20:41. | |
of Birmingham, you proud of that? -- twice the population. Are you proud | :20:42. | :20:49. | |
of that or apologising for it? We set the pace of immigration was too | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
fat and the level was too high and it is right to bring migration down. | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
So you think that was wrong? Overruled have been huge benefits | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
from people that have come to Britain and built our biggest | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
businesses. -- overall. They have become Olympic medal winners. But | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
because the pace was too fast, that has had an impact. That was because | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
of the lack of transitional controls from Eastern Europe and it is why we | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
should learn from that and have sensible measures in place now, as | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
part of what has got to be a calm debate. These are net migration | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
figures. They don't often show the full figure. These are the | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
immigration figures coming in. What that chart shows is that in terms of | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
the gross number coming into this country, from the year 2000, it was | :21:40. | :21:47. | |
half a million a year under Labour. Rising to 600,000 by the time you | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
were out of power. A lot of people coming into these crowded islands, | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
particularly since most of them come to London and the South East. Was | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
that intentional? Was that out of control? Is that what you are now | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
apologising for? What we said was that the Government got the figures | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
wrong on the migration from Eastern Europe. If you remember particularly | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
there was the issue of what happened with not having transitional | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
controls in place. The Government didn't expect the number of people | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
coming to the country to be the way it was. And so obviously mistakes | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
were made. We have recognised that. We have also got to recognise that | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
this is something that has happened in countries all over the world. We | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
travel and trade far more than ever. We have an increasingly globalised | :22:39. | :22:41. | |
economy. Other European countries have been affected in the same way, | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
and America, and other developing countries affected in the same way | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
by the scale of migration. I am trying to work out whether the | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
numbers were intentional or if you lost control. The key thing that we | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
have said many times and I have already said it to you many times, | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
Andrew, that we should have a transitional controls in place on | :23:04. | :23:06. | |
Eastern Europe. I think that would have had an impact on them level of | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
migration. We also should have brought in the points -based system | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
earlier. We did bring that in towards the end and it did restrict | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
the level of low skilled migration because there are different kinds of | :23:20. | :23:22. | |
migration. University students coming to Britain brings in billions | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
of pounds of investment. On the other hand, low skilled migration | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
can have a serious impact on the jobs market, pay levels and so on at | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
the low skilled end of the labour market. We have to distinguish | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
between different kinds of migration. You keep trying to excuse | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
the figures by talking about the lack of transitional controls. Can | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
we skip the chart I was going to go to? The next one. Under Labour, this | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
is the source of where migrants came from. The main source was not the | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
accession countries or the remainder of Europe. Overwhelmingly they were | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
from the African Commonwealth, and the Indian subcontinent. | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
Overwhelmingly, these numbers are nothing to do with transitional | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
controls. You can control that immigration entirely because they | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
are not part of the EU. Was that a mistake? First of all, the big | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
increase was in the accession groups. Not according to the chart. | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
In terms of the increase, the changes that happened. Secondly, in | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
answer to the question that you just asked me, we should also have | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
introduced the points -based system at an earlier stage. Thirdly there | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
has been a big increase in the number of university students coming | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
to Britain and they have brought billions of pounds of investment. At | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
the moment the Government is not distinguishing, it is just using the | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
figure of net migration. And that is starting to go up again, as you said | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
in the introduction, but the problem is that it treats all kinds of | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
migration is aimed. It does not address illegal immigration, which | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
is a problem, but it treats university graduates coming to | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
Britain in the same way as low skilled workers. If Labour get back | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
into power, is it your ambition to bring down immigration? We have | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
already said it is too high and we would support measures to bring it | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
down. You would bring it down? There is something called student visas, | :25:22. | :25:24. | |
which is not included in the figures, and it does not include | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
university graduates, and it is a figure that has increased | :25:31. | :25:40. | |
substantially in recent years. They come for short-term study but they | :25:41. | :25:43. | |
do not even have to prove that they come for a college course. They do | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
not even have to have a place to come. Those visas should be | :25:47. | :25:48. | |
restricted to prevent abuse of the system and that is in line with a | :25:49. | :25:50. | |
recommendation from the Inspectorate and that is the kind of practical | :25:51. | :25:53. | |
thing that we could do. Can you give us a ballpark figure of how much | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
immigration would fall? You have seen the mess that Theresa May has | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
got into with her figures. She made a target that it is clear to me that | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
she will not meet. I think that is right. She will not meet it. Can you | :26:08. | :26:29. | |
give as a ballpark figure by which we can judge you? If she had been | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
more sensible and taken more time to listen to experts and decide what | :26:34. | :26:35. | |
measures should be targeted, then she would not be in this mess. You | :26:36. | :26:38. | |
cannot give me a figure? She has chosen net migration. She has set a | :26:39. | :26:40. | |
target, without ifs and buts. I think it is important not to have a | :26:41. | :26:43. | |
massive gap between the rhetoric and reality. Not to make promises on | :26:44. | :26:45. | |
numbers which are not responsible. OK, you won't give me a figure. | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
Fine. Moving on to crime. 10,000 front line police jobs have gone | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
since 2010 but crime continues to fall. 7% down last year alone. When | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
you told the Labour conference that you do not cut crime by cutting the | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
police, you were wrong. I think the Government is being very complacent | :27:06. | :27:07. | |
about what is happening to crime. Crime patterns are changing. There | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
has been an exponential increase, and that is in the words of the | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
police, in online crime. We have also seen, for example, domestic | :27:19. | :27:26. | |
violence going up, but prosecutions dropping dramatically. There is a | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
serious impact as a result of not having 10,000 police in place. You | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
have talked about the exponential increase in online and economic | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
crime. If those are the big growth areas, why have bobbies on the beat? | :27:39. | :27:45. | |
That would make no difference. It is about an approach to policing that | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
has been incredibly successful over many years, which Labour introduced, | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
which is neighbourhood policing in the community is working hard with | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
communities to prevent crime. People like to see bobbies on the beat but | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
have you got any evidence that it leads to a reduction in crime? | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
Interestingly, the Lords Stevens commission that we set up, they have | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
reported this week and it has been the equivalent of a Royal | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
commission, looking at the number of people involved in it. Their strong | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
recommendation was that this is about preventing crime but also | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
respectful law and order, working with communities, and so they | :28:22. | :28:24. | |
strongly took the view with all of their expertise and the 30 different | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
universities that they have involved with it, that on the basis of all | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
that analysis, the right thing was to keep bobbies on the beat and not | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
push them cars. Instinctively you would think it was true. More | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
visible policing, less crime. But in all the criminology work, I cannot | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
find the evidence. There is competing work about why there has | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
been a 20 year drop in overall crime and everybody has different opinions | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
on why that has happened. The point about neighbourhood policing is that | :28:56. | :28:58. | |
it is broader than crime-fighting. It is about prevention and community | :28:59. | :29:05. | |
safety. Improving the well-being of communities as well. Will you keep | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
the elected Police Commissioners? Big sigh! What the report said was | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
that the system is flawed. We raised concern about this at the beginning. | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
You will remember at the elections, Theresa May's flagship policy, at | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
the elections they cost ?100 million and there was 15% turnout. You have | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
to have a system of accountability at the police. Three options were | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
presented, all of which are forms. So you have to have reform. It is | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
not whether to have reformed, it is which of those options is the best | :29:43. | :29:52. | |
way to do it. The commission set out a series of options, and I thought | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
that the preferable approach would be collaboration and voluntary | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
mergers. We know they won't volunteer. There have been some | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
collaboration is taking place. I think the issues with police and | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
crime commissioners have fragmented things and made it harder to get | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
collaboration between police forces. Everybody is asking this | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
question, just before you go. What is it like living with a nightmare? | :30:20. | :30:27. | |
Who does all the cooking, so I can't complain! Says Miliband people are | :30:28. | :30:36. | |
wrong, he is a dream cook? He is! In a speech this week, Boris Johnson | :30:37. | :30:39. | |
praised greed and envy as essential for economic progress, and that has | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
got tongues wagging. What is the Mayor of London up to? What is his | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
game plan? Does he even have a game plan and does he know if he has one? | :30:49. | :30:58. | |
Flash photography coming up. Boris. In many ways I can leave it there. | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
You'd know who I meant. And if you didn't, the unruly mop of blonde | :31:03. | :31:13. | |
hair would tell you, the language. Ping-pong was invented on the dining | :31:14. | :31:16. | |
tables of England. Somehow pulling off the ridiculous to the sublime. | :31:17. | :31:34. | |
It is going to go zoink off the scale! But often having to speed | :31:35. | :31:36. | |
away from the whiff-whaff of scandal. Boris, are you going to | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
save your manage? There's always been a question about | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
him and his as role as mayor and another prized position, as hinted | :31:46. | :31:48. | |
to the Tory faithful this year at conference, discussing former French | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
Prime Minister Alan Juppe. -- Alain Juppe. He told me he was going to be | :31:55. | :32:02. | |
the mayor of Bordeaux. I think he may have been mayor well he was | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
Prime Minister, it is the kind of thing they do in funds -- AvD in | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
France. It is a good idea, if you ask me. But is it a joke? He is much | :32:14. | :32:22. | |
more ambitious. Boris wants to be Prime Minister more than anything | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
else. Perhaps more than he wants to be made of London. The ball came | :32:27. | :32:34. | |
loose from the back of the scrum. Of course it would give great thing to | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
have a crack at, but it is not going to happen. He might be right. First, | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
the Conservatives have a leader, another Old Etonian, Oxford, | :32:45. | :32:47. | |
Bullingdon chap and he has the job Boris might like a crack at. What do | :32:48. | :32:54. | |
you do with a problem like Boris? It is one of the great paradoxes of | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
Tory politics that for Boris Johnson to succeed, David Cameron must feel. | :32:59. | :33:04. | |
Boris needs David Cameron to lose so that he can stand a chance of | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
becoming loser. -- becoming leader. And disloyalty is punished by | :33:09. | :33:11. | |
Conservatives. Boris knows the man who brought down Margaret Thatcher. | :33:12. | :33:13. | |
Michael Heseltine, who Boris replaced as MP for Henley, never got | :33:14. | :33:20. | |
her job. In 1986, she took on the member for Henley, always a risky | :33:21. | :33:30. | |
venture. And why might he make such a jibe, because he's won two more | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
elections than the PM. Conservatives like a winner. Boris, against Robert | :33:35. | :33:43. | |
expectations, has won the Mayor of London job twice. -- public. He | :33:44. | :33:53. | |
might've built a following with the grassroots but he's on shakier | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
ground with many Tory MPs, who see him as a selfish clown, unfit for | :33:57. | :34:03. | |
high office. And besides, he's not the only one with king-sized | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
ambition, and Boris and George are not close, however much they may | :34:07. | :34:13. | |
profess unity. There is probably some Chinese expression for a | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
complete and perfect harmony. Ying and yang. But in plain black and | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
white, if Boris has a plan, it's one he can't instigate, and if David | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
Cameron is PM in 2016, it may not be implementable. He'd need a seat and | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
it wouldn't be plain sailing if he did make a leadership bid. My | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
leadership chances, I think I may have told you before, or about as | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
good as my chances of ying reincarnated as a baked bean. Which | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
is probably quite high. So if the job you want with Brown-esque desire | :34:49. | :34:51. | |
is potentially never to be yours what do you do? He is, of course, an | :34:52. | :35:00. | |
American citizen by birth. He was born in New York public hospital, | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
and so he is qualified to be President of the United States. And | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
you don't need an IQ over 16 to find that the tiniest bit scary. | :35:10. | :35:15. | |
Giles Dilnot reporting. Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates are | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
here. Is there a plan for Boris, and if so, what is it? I think the plan | :35:22. | :35:27. | |
is for him to say what he thinks the Tory activist base wants to hear | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
just now. He knows that in 18 months time they can disown it. I think he | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
is wrong, the way the speech has played has a limited number of | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
people. He has cross-party appeal. He has now reconfirmed to people | :35:44. | :35:46. | |
that the Tories are the nasty party and they have been pretending to be | :35:47. | :35:53. | |
modernised. Is it not the truth that he needs David Cameron to lose the | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
2015 election to become leader in this decade? It is very interesting | :35:58. | :36:04. | |
watching his fortunes wax and wane. It always seems to happen in inverse | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
proportion to how well David Cameron is doing in front of his own party. | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
There is no small element of strategy about what we are doing | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
here. The problem with Boris is that he's popular with the country, but | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
not with the party's MPs and its hard-core supporters. This was an | :36:23. | :36:29. | |
appeal to the grassroots this week. He is not the only potential | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
candidate. If we were in some kind of circumstance where Boris was a | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
runner to replace Mr Cameron, who with the other front the? I think it | :36:40. | :36:48. | |
will skip a generation. The recent intake was ideological assertive. I | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
do not buy the idea that it will be Jeremy Hunt against Michael Gove. I | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
then, that generation will be tainted by being in government. It | :36:59. | :37:07. | |
is interesting, what is he trying to pull? He is ideological. He does not | :37:08. | :37:13. | |
believe in many things, but he believes in a few things quite | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
deeply, and one is the idea of competition, both in business and | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
academic selection. He has never been squeamish about expressing | :37:24. | :37:30. | |
that. We do make mistakes sometimes, assuming he is entirely political. | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
Look at all the Northern voters who will not vote for the Tories even | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
though they are socially or economic the Conservatives. I do not think he | :37:41. | :37:47. | |
helps. Who in the Tories would help? That is a tough question. To | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
reason me has also been speaking to the hard right. -- Theresa May. I | :37:54. | :38:03. | |
have been out with him at night. It is like dining with a film star. | :38:04. | :38:05. | |
People are queueing up to speak to People are queueing up to speak to | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
him. Educational selection is one of the few areas that he can offer. He | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
has gone liberal on immigration, as are made of London would have to. | :38:16. | :38:32. | |
Welcome to Sunday Politics South ` my name's Peter Henley. On today's | :38:33. | :38:35. | |
show. Digging up the past. As councils cut | :38:36. | :38:38. | |
or even close their archaeology departments, are we in danger of | :38:39. | :38:41. | |
losing our local heritage because nobody knows where the bodies are | :38:42. | :38:54. | |
buried? Let's meet the politicians who will be with me for the next 20 | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
minutes, Diane James fought the by`election for UKIP. And Catherine | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
Beard is a Liberal Democrat MEP for the south`east. Opposite sides of in | :39:05. | :39:11. | |
out on Europe. But both agreed that this James Watson private lenders | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
referendum Bill is something you do not appear approve of? We want a | :39:16. | :39:23. | |
referendum but we do not want the private members bill as it is | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
styled. The electoral commission has made it plain it is unhappy with the | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
wording which is an interesting point because that is an | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
authoritative wadi in terms of how this sort of matter should be | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
addressed. Albeit it does is followed this `` all this does is | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
follow the issue of 2017 referendum whereas we are seeing we need a | :39:46. | :39:48. | |
referendum before that. The bill that have happened and make still | :39:49. | :39:55. | |
have happened, it would have been more preferable to UKIP because it | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
would have brought the key date forward. Both bills do not address | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
the key issue. You are saying they are better things to talk about at | :40:04. | :40:06. | |
the moment? Absolutely, we have little enough Parliamentary time is | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
an European scrutiny and waiting time on a private members bill, | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
which we are all agreed, we need the referendum but the Liberal Democrats | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
say we will have a referendum when there are some that do have a vote | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
about. Is there not already? The legislation that we have supported | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
in this government is when there is a change to our nation shipped to | :40:29. | :40:31. | |
the European Union, that is when we should have a referendum. `` in our | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
relationship. It would most likely be in or out, would you except the | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
treaty change. And you think you could get somewhere with the | :40:42. | :40:46. | |
renegotiation? It is difficult to go in and say, I am holding a big | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
hammer. That is not the way to do business. You don't do that. Do you | :40:52. | :40:59. | |
agree that it will not get very far? He says he wants to renegotiate all | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
the competencies, there are 32. Trying to address the issues within | :41:05. | :41:10. | |
each of them is even going to be a tall order by 2017 for David | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
Cameron. Then you have still got to get agreement with the other member | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
states. It is like saying, I want to play with your football club and not | :41:20. | :41:26. | |
play by the offside rule. When we do have the referendum the Lib Dems | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
will be fighting because we are the party of in. | :41:32. | :41:34. | |
It is of course a month until controls on the numbers of Bulgarian | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
and Romanian workers who can come to the UK are lifted. This week the | :41:38. | :41:40. | |
Prime Minister announced that he wants to see a ban on people from | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
those countries being able to access parts of the welfare state, for | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
example preventing them from claiming housing benefit. What we | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
are doing is sending a signal that of course, there is the right to | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
take up job places around the European Union and people take | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
advantage of that. But actually it is right to say that it is not a | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
right, not a freedom to claim benefits. Also for the longer term, | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
as new countries join the European Union, I am not satisfied with the | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
system we have today which is why I want a renegotiation of the European | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
Union, a change in the rules and then a referendum so people here in | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
the UK can decide whether to stay in that reformed European Union, | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
including reform to free movement and benefit rights, or leave that | :42:23. | :42:24. | |
European Union. When the last group of Eastern | :42:25. | :42:27. | |
European countries joined the EU in 2004, many Poles came over to work | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
in the South, many of them in Southampton. At one point the | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
estimate was that one in ten of the city's population was Polish. | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
Joining me now are Royston Smith, who was the Conservative leader of | :42:39. | :42:41. | |
the city council for much of the time those people were moving here, | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
and Dr Paulina Trevena, who's been working on a study of that | :42:46. | :42:53. | |
community's experiences. Royston, there was a feeling that we did not | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
expect what happened in Southampton. There were specific pressures, want | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
there? There were. The numbers have been hugely exaggerated. UKIP during | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
the Eastleigh by`election exaggerated the numbers. But it was | :43:07. | :43:09. | |
a significant impact. Some would talk about one in ten of the | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
population, it was less than that, I know it was less than that because | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
we were having to say we have this many Eastern European but the | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
government are only funding of sport seven or 8000. When you are | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
underfunded it puts pressure on services. This is not a racist or | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
immigration issue, it was a funding issue for Southampton. You did not | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
know if second hammer people had come here, what they needed, they | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
were just `` just how many people came here. They were turning up | :43:41. | :43:43. | |
saying, we need housing? They had jobs a lot of the time and maybe... | :43:44. | :43:50. | |
Many did have jobs. They were coming through agencies. Yes, we could only | :43:51. | :43:57. | |
count them through national insurance registrations. In | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
Southampton we did not have that, we were not sophisticated enough, we | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
had to pretty much guess. We knew because of the services that people | :44:07. | :44:08. | |
were applying for and because there was a Polish community anyway, this | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
`` the numbers were significant. Down the road in Portsmouth, there | :44:14. | :44:16. | |
were almost none. Southampton had a bit influx of Eastern Europeans | :44:17. | :44:24. | |
advanced and it swamped us. We are still trying to find out exactly why | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
people came to Southampton. It is an interesting issue and I have been | :44:29. | :44:31. | |
trying to find that out in a research. There are a lot of | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
different story around that, one is that before Poland and the other | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
Eastern European countries are in the EU, there was an agreement | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
between the Labour officers in Poland and in Southampton so there | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
were already people working here before Poland joined the EU. There | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
were already networks of people working prior to EU accession here. | :44:53. | :44:59. | |
And when accession took place, these people brought their families, | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
friends and so on. And then work gets back, there is work, it is a | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
decent place to live and you get a second wave of people? It continues | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
to build? Looking forward, then, what would you say we need to know | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
about Bulgarian and remaining immigration? Will there be | :45:19. | :45:20. | |
particular places in the country where they might head for? `` | :45:21. | :45:27. | |
Romanian immigration? It is difficult to answer because there is | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
little data out there on particular locations where people live. It was | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
the same problem only when researching Polish migrants living | :45:36. | :45:38. | |
in rural areas, there was basically no data to go by. Basically I needed | :45:39. | :45:44. | |
to go out and find them. You did that in Dorset? Yes, and in | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
Scotland. Could you talk to the one big employer, would they have had | :45:50. | :45:57. | |
and understanding? The issue is that many employers are not keen to talk | :45:58. | :45:59. | |
to you. There are many employers are not keen to talk | :46:00. | :46:07. | |
to you. There also issues about how migrants are employed, particularly | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
in rural areas in agriculture. But many of the employers are very keen | :46:12. | :46:14. | |
on employing Eastern European workers because they are | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
hard`working, ready to accept the conditions that they are offered. | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
They have often either asked agencies to source people from | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
abroad or they have asked the workers they already have in place | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
to bring over friends and families to work with them. What David | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
Cameron is doing, I turn to our politicians, what he's doing is | :46:36. | :46:38. | |
looking at things like the minimum wage. That is important, isn't it? | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
Rather than just putting up border controls. It would be, Peter, but | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
the point has been made. It is about the package of conditions. There are | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
stories around the UK, it is even happening in Surrey, for instance, | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
where Inprise are bringing these individuals over and they are | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
offering them a package which undermines the minimum wage issue | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
will stop it might include accommodation and transport. That is | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
not a good idea, it is not something which anyone should be endorsing or | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
encouraging but it is happening. That acts as an encouragement to | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
individuals coming across. It makes it that much more difficult for our | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
young people over here, and we have got 1 million of them, why should | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
they not have the opportunity to at least try for those jobs? If they | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
cannot find the minimum wage allocated for them, a very difficult | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
situation. But Bulgaria and Romania might be different to Poland. They | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
have been able to go to other parts of the European Union, whereas | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
Poland did not. That is a fair comment. There have been estimates | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
of somewhere in the region of 2 million nationals from both of those | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
countries who have already left Bulgaria and Rumania and settled in | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
other parts of Europe. They have made that first move. First move? | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
Yes, they have left their countries and on to say, France, Spain or | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
Germany. For them, it is the next step to potentially come here. What | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
you think of that? Bulgaria and Rumania, their second language is | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
not generally English. Where and in Poland it tended to be. We have had | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
a long history of relationships with Poland. Bog area and Romain here are | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
`` bog area and Romania are most likely to have Italian as their | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
second language. It is important that we make sure that the terms and | :48:30. | :48:35. | |
conditions, if you want is to bring them a package to come over, you | :48:36. | :48:38. | |
have to pay the minimum wage. That is something we must enforce. It is | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
not going to be happening in time for January one. That is the nail on | :48:44. | :48:51. | |
the head. If you talk to my Bulgarian and Rumania and | :48:52. | :48:53. | |
colleagues, they say there is no way that people are looking to come | :48:54. | :48:59. | |
here. Across Europe, they are saying the level of racism is getting home | :49:00. | :49:07. | |
`` higher. It is not racism, it is migration watch, that is | :49:08. | :49:10. | |
authoritative, they have an estimate of 50,000. We can talk about all | :49:11. | :49:16. | |
sorts of numbers and pluck them out of fresh air. You have studied what | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
happened with the Polish, when you look at the estimates, do you think | :49:21. | :49:23. | |
we really understand what will happen? It is very difficult to work | :49:24. | :49:30. | |
out what will happen. It is near impossible. What is very important | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
is take context into consideration. The British government was sending | :49:36. | :49:38. | |
out a totally different message those years ago when Poland were | :49:39. | :49:44. | |
joining. It was very much, we have 500,000 vacancies to fill, we need | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
workers. Now the message is very different. And people are not | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
encouraged. Is it posturing for Bulgaria and Romania 's Mac sake or | :49:53. | :49:58. | |
is it 48 British `` is it for a British audience? I think it is | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
both. It is all very well for us to say we do not think very many will | :50:05. | :50:07. | |
come or they will all come, we do not know. We need to deal with that. | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
If we do not put something in which discourages people who are not | :50:13. | :50:15. | |
coming in here to fill vacancies, that perhaps some of our workers | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
will not do or are not qualified to do, if we do not send a message that | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
you cannot come here and spend your life on the UK's generous benefit | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
system, you would have to say that they will come. The rights to move | :50:28. | :50:33. | |
and work is enshrined in the treaties. There are over 2 million | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
Ritz living and working in other parts of the European Union. We have | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
to protect that. We do not have to protect the right to come here and | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
protect benefits `` take benefits. Or leave the European Union | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
altogether. Thank you for coming and talking to us. | :50:53. | :50:55. | |
For the last 30 years or so archaeology has been on the rise. A | :50:56. | :50:58. | |
generation fuelled by Indiana Jones, and shows like Time Team ensured | :50:59. | :51:01. | |
university courses were full to bursting. But things have changed. | :51:02. | :51:04. | |
Harrison Ford has grown old and Tony Robinson has put down his trowel | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
after 20 years. Add to this the recession, with councils deciding | :51:10. | :51:12. | |
they can do without local archaeologists, and changes to | :51:13. | :51:14. | |
planning laws that have downgraded the importance of protecting | :51:15. | :51:17. | |
archaeology, and as our Hampshire political reporter Paul Greer has | :51:18. | :51:20. | |
been finding out, you have the perfect storm for this ancient | :51:21. | :51:21. | |
profession. I am walking along Southampton's | :51:22. | :51:40. | |
amazing medieval walls. It is from this very spot that Henry V inbox | :51:41. | :51:48. | |
his army for France and Agincourt. Henry fifth, we happy band of | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
Brothers? Once more unto the breach? I will come down! What I am trying | :51:53. | :52:01. | |
to say is, if you go a mile that weight you come to an old Saxon | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
town. I'll update River is an `` a mile up the river is an old Roman | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
fort. It is not the archaeology of it is rare. It is the | :52:12. | :52:17. | |
archaeologists. Southampton Council archaeology team has been cut by | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
half. Other cities like Exeter have closed there is entirely. Even | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
world`renowned courses like those at Birmingham University, involved in | :52:26. | :52:31. | |
the Saxon horde find, have been cut. These are not the best of times to | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
be an archaeologist. Doctor Paul Avril teaches archaeology at of the | :52:36. | :52:41. | |
University. I think politicians see heritage as something of a luxury | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
which can be chopped off when they are looking to make cuts. Now seen | :52:46. | :52:52. | |
more like a contaminant like asbestos removal, that archaeology | :52:53. | :53:01. | |
and heritage is a negative impediment to that element that | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
needs to be removed. You are losing people providing specialist advice | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
to planning authorities. Others who keep a close watch on our history | :53:10. | :53:16. | |
and Heritage believe is more and more local archaeologists lose their | :53:17. | :53:19. | |
jobs, the greater the risk becomes that something precious will be | :53:20. | :53:21. | |
destroyed because no one knew it was there. We should leave an ember of | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
fire in the various departments so that when money is available again | :53:27. | :53:33. | |
and we make an economic department, the fires can be giggled again. | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
Archaeology is just one example. If it is cut down to nobody, the | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
experience of a lifetime of dealing with a city which has the best | :53:43. | :53:45. | |
medieval walls in the country apart from York, will be lost. Recent | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
changes to planning laws now is the presumption in favour to sustainable | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
development, with the issue of protecting the archaeology of the | :53:56. | :53:59. | |
site somewhat less important. There are still those in Westminster who | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
would like to see a more balanced approach to saving our historic | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
treasures. Most archaeological excavation which is happening is | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
paid for by developers who want to stick up a big supermarket or | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
housing complex somewhere. A lot of the academic research that used to | :54:17. | :54:19. | |
go on in the past is not happening and some of the county | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
archaeologists, paid for by local councils, are being cut because they | :54:24. | :54:32. | |
are going to put the money into child services or social services. | :54:33. | :54:42. | |
He founded the all`party ocular `` archaeological group. He knows | :54:43. | :54:45. | |
spending money there is not a priority but he said if we do not | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
fight for it, we will regret it. If you do not protect the | :54:51. | :54:52. | |
archaeological environment just as we need to protect our natural | :54:53. | :54:55. | |
environment, once you have lost it, it is configured and that is a false | :54:56. | :55:00. | |
economy. The benefit of `` it is gone for good and that is a fourth | :55:01. | :55:03. | |
economy. The benefit of archaeological things will last | :55:04. | :55:12. | |
years to come. There is a risk that a real gem that can be lost because | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
the man who knows where the bodies are buried is history. Without the | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
specialist advice, there is very little to stop developments | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
occurring that potentially could have ended up with Richard III's | :55:28. | :55:35. | |
bones on the workmen 's figure. Why now, times are hard in a world of | :55:36. | :55:41. | |
archaeology but fortunately, this is one profession where taking the long | :55:42. | :55:46. | |
view comes naturally. He might have two wait for the | :55:47. | :55:52. | |
recognition he richly deserves in his cardboard crown! It is terribly | :55:53. | :55:59. | |
easy to lose this. It is. I come from the antique trade, which was | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
all about preserving things from the past. It is a difficult. I know how | :56:04. | :56:09. | |
councils have to juggle, whether it is meals on wheels or children's | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
services or archaeology. I think what we need to be doing is making | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
sure we do not lose and we protect what we have got at the moment. If | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
we have not got the money to do further research, we need to | :56:22. | :56:27. | |
consolidate in universities. We are just coming into a new phase of | :56:28. | :56:30. | |
funding for the European Union, and culture funding will be coming on | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
stream. I would say keep an eye on that, local councils, it may be that | :56:36. | :56:37. | |
you could bid for European money which will help you preserve the | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
property have got. Do you think the Italians, the Greeks, they have the | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
knowledge, they have kept the knowledge of their previous | :56:48. | :56:49. | |
civilisations as well as the artefacts? Absolutely, and that is | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
where we can share knowledge and get a better value by working together | :56:54. | :56:59. | |
right across the European Union. That sounds like a good European | :57:00. | :57:07. | |
project? I am a little bit cynical about this. When it comes down to | :57:08. | :57:10. | |
it, we have got the planning minister in the coalition government | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
saying he wants housing everywhere. He is probably the biggest threat to | :57:16. | :57:17. | |
some of the archaeological sites that could ever exist. When we have | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
a situation where even burial grounds are being dug up to provide | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
sites for affordable housing, as is happening now, that puts into | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
question... So you bring this back to too much development? If you | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
like, is too much immigration, pressure on resources. There is this | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
claim that local government has embarked on this efficiency drive | :57:43. | :57:45. | |
and cut costs. One has to question, has that efficiency, as a result of | :57:46. | :57:52. | |
just cutting services and making the money is add up rather than doing | :57:53. | :57:54. | |
the job better? Now our regular round`up of the | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
political week in the South in 60 seconds, and this week in a vain | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
attempt to beat the clock ` it's gathering pace throughout. | :58:03. | :58:14. | |
Cycling in Chichester got a gentle boost, a government grant to help | :58:15. | :58:21. | |
bike racks and cycling confidence classes. Stepping up the horsepower, | :58:22. | :58:24. | |
East Hampshire MP Damian Hines was called for tougher action to prevent | :58:25. | :58:30. | |
fly grazing, horses put out on other people's land, by what the RSPCA | :58:31. | :58:39. | |
called irresponsible owners. During the winter, they need supplementary | :58:40. | :58:42. | |
feeding with extra hay. Travelling little faster, the nation's ports | :58:43. | :58:48. | |
with more help with improving rail access according to the transport | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
select committee. The backers of high`speed trains were urged to slow | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
down by protesters at Parliament. The bill is the largest ever | :58:55. | :58:58. | |
published it was full throttle for take`off at Oxford airport. A big | :58:59. | :59:03. | |
jump in demand from private jets, including medical evacuation. | :59:04. | :59:08. | |
Finally, down to earth with a bomb for MPs who now have two shave off | :59:09. | :59:15. | |
their moustaches for Movember. A fine crop this year! | :59:16. | :59:22. | |
No comment about that! It is all for cancer charities. The Autumn | :59:23. | :59:26. | |
statement that we are looking ahead to two, what do you think is likely | :59:27. | :59:33. | |
to be there? Any surprises or it has all been flagged up? I know what I | :59:34. | :59:39. | |
want to see, more taken of the basic rate of income tax, taking up | :59:40. | :59:46. | |
another charge of people. That is not helping the very poorest, | :59:47. | :59:51. | |
raising the threshold. You have more money in your pocket. Not for the | :59:52. | :59:56. | |
very poorest who have already been helped. We have already helped the | :59:57. | :00:05. | |
very poorest. So it is now ?12,000? It is crazy people who are on | :00:06. | :00:08. | |
minimum wage are being taxed, we have to take that out. David Cameron | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
said it could not be done, we have showed him except how it could be | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
done in government and we now need to take the next step. I am sure you | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
would like to see some of the green stuff kept. Can you see that | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
ditched? We would like to see it removed. We are talking ?6.5 billion | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
by 2017, 18, if we just took out two elements, one of those could reduce | :00:30. | :00:38. | |
household energy bills I a lot of money. That would go a long way to | :00:39. | :00:45. | |
help. It is very short`term. You ask anybody about climate change, they | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
say you have to start cutting back now. Any carbon dioxide will stay in | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
the atmosphere for 100 years. It is a long`term view. Let's put it into | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
context. The government has cancelled one of the major arrays. | :00:59. | :01:05. | |
The wind farm. Precisely. A lot of that money goes to water the wind | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
turbines and solar arrays. If we are not doing them, we don't pay for | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
them. We'll see how it works out! Thank you to my guests. Don't | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
forget, you can keep up`to`date with politics in our region by reading my | :01:20. | :01:20. | |
blog. Now, back to Andrew. picked out. People thought he was | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
touching on eugenics and things like that. That is all we have time for. | :01:27. | :01:41. | |
Thank you. What rabbit has George Osborne got up his sleeve? And | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
what's David Cameron up to in China? All questions for The Week Ahead. To | :01:48. | :01:54. | |
help the panel led, we are joined by Kwasi Kwarteng, Tory MP. Welcome to | :01:55. | :02:02. | |
the Sunday Politics. Why has the government been unable to move the | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
agenda and to the broad economic recovery, and allowed the agenda to | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
stay on Labour's ground of energy prices and living standards? Energy | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
has been a big issue over the last few months but the autumn state and | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
will be a wonderful opportunity to readdress where we are fighting the | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
ground, the good economic news that we delivered. If you look at where | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
Labour were earlier this year, people were saying they would they 5 | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
million people unemployed. They were saying that there should be a plan | :02:34. | :02:43. | |
B. He is not in the Labour Party? Elements of the left were suggesting | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
it. Peter Hain told me it would be up to 3 million people. Danny | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
Blanchflower said it would be 5 million people. So we have got to | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
get the economy back to the centre of the debate? Yes, the game we were | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
playing was about the economy. That was the central fighting ground of | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
the political debate. We were winning that battle. Labour have | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
cleverly shifted it onto the cost of living. It is essential that the | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
government, that George, talks about the economy. That has been its great | :03:17. | :03:27. | |
success. I do not think this has been a week of admitting that Labour | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
was right, plain cigarettes packaging, other issues. If you look | :03:31. | :03:37. | |
at the big picture, where we are with the economy, we have the | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
fastest growing economy in the G-7. Despite Labour's predictions, none | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
of this has happened, none of the triple dip has happened. The British | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
economy is on a good fitting. That is a good story for the government | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
to bat on. You say that people have stopped talking about the economic | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
recovery, but it is worse than that, people have stopped talking about | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
the deficit? As long as people were talking about the deficit, the | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
Tories were trusted. But people have forgotten about it. This country | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
still spends ?100 billion more than it raises. Yes, I am of the view | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
that the deficit, the national debt, is the biggest question facing | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
this generation of politicians. You are right to suggest that the | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
Conservative Party was strong on this. That head, not deficit, is not | :04:33. | :04:39. | |
going to come down in the foreseeable future? It is rising. | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
This is a test that George Osborne is not going to pass. We know what | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
is coming in the Autumn Statement, it is lots of giveaways, paying for | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
free school meals, paying for fuel duty subsidies. We are still talking | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
about the cost of living, not changing it actively wider economy. | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
There might be extra money for growth but it is not clear what will | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
happen to that. If it is time for giveaways, let's speak about Labour. | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
I have never been a fan of giveaways. Fiscal prudence is what | :05:16. | :05:23. | |
our watchword should be. Look at the headlines. Each time, the deficit | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
figures, the debt figures, were always worse than predicted. This | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
year it will be significantly better. I think that is significant. | :05:33. | :05:39. | |
Any kind of recovery is probably better than no recovery at all. When | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
you look at this recovery, it is basically a consumer spending boom. | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
Consumer spending is up, business investment is way down compared with | :05:50. | :05:57. | |
2008, and exports, despite a 20% devaluation, our flat. Let's get one | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
thing straight, it is a recovery. Any recovery is better than no | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
recovery. Now we can have a debate about, technical debate about the | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
elements of the recovery. It is not technical, it is a fact. There is | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
evidence that there is optimism in terms of what are thinking... | :06:20. | :06:26. | |
Optimism? If I am optimistic about the economy, I am more likely to | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
spend money and invest in business. So far you have not managed that? | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
Exports have not done well either? Exports are not a big section of the | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
British economy. But of course, they are important. But given where we | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
were at the end of last year, no economist was saying that we would | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
be in this robust position today. That is true, in terms of the | :06:54. | :07:00. | |
overall recovery. Now the PM loves to "bang the drum abroad for British | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
business" and he's off to China this evening with a plane-load of British | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
business leaders. And it's not the first time. Take a look at this. | :07:08. | :07:38. | |
Well, you might not think exports unimportant, but clearly the Prime | :07:39. | :08:03. | |
Minister and the Chancellor do. They are important, but they are not what | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
is driving the growth at the moment. We used to talk about the need for | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
export led recovery is, that is why the Prime Minister is going to | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
China. Absolutely, and he's doing the right thing. Do we have any | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
evidence that these tend of trips produce business? The main example | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
so far is the right to trade the Chinese currency offshore. London | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
has a kind of global primacy. London will be the offshore centre. Is that | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
a good thing? I have no problem at all with this sort of policy. I do | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
not think that Britain has been doing this enough compared with | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
France and Germany in recent years. I am optimistic in the long term | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
about this dish -- about British exports to China. China need machine | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
tools and manufacturing products. In 20 years time, China will be buying | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
professional groups, educational services, the things we excel at. | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
All we need to do is consolidate our strengths, stand still and we will | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
move forward. The worst thing we can do is reengineer the economy towards | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
those services and away from something else. We have a lot of | :09:20. | :09:26. | |
ground to make up, Helen? At one stage, it is no longer true, but at | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
one stage you could say that we exported more to Ireland, a country | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
of 4 million people, than we did to Russia, China, India, Brazil, all | :09:35. | :09:43. | |
combined. I believe we form 1% of Chinese imports now. The problem is | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
what you have to give up in exchange for that. It is a big problem for | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
David Cameron's credibility that he has had to row back on his meeting | :09:56. | :10:02. | |
with the Dalai llama. This trip, we have been in the deep freeze with | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
China for a couple of years. This trip has come at a high cost. We | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
have had to open up the City of London to Chinese banks without much | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
scrutiny, we have had to move the date of the Autumn Statement, and | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
there is no mention of human rights. It is awkward to deal with that, all | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
in the name of getting up to where we were a few years ago. A month | :10:24. | :10:31. | |
after strong anchor -- one month after Sri Lanka, where he apologised | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
three human rights abuses, this is difficult to take. Do we have any | :10:36. | :10:42. | |
idea what the Prime Minister hopes to do in China this time? I am not | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
sure there is anything specific, but when you go to these countries, | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
certainly in the Middle East China, they complain, why has the Prime | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
Minister not come to see us? That is very important. High-level | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
delegations from other countries go to these places because the addict | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
-- because they are important export markets. You might look at the Prime | :11:06. | :11:16. | |
Minister playing cricket over there, and wonder, what is that for? I do | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
not mind the Prime Minister Rajoy cricket. This is a high visibility | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
mission, chose that politicians in Britain care. You are part of the | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
free enterprise group. It had all sorts of things on it like tax cuts | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
for those on middle incomes or above the 40% bracket, tax cuts worth 16 | :11:37. | :11:44. | |
billion. You will get none of that on Thursday, we are agreed? No. But | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
he does have two budgets between now and the election and if the fiscal | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
position is using a little bit, he may have more leeway than it looked | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
like a couple of months ago. Yes, from a free enter prise point of | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
view, we have looked at the tax cuts that should be looked at. The 40p | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
rate comes in at quite a low level for people who, in the south-east, | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
do not feel particularly wealthy. They are spending a lot of money on | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
commuting, energy bills. The Chancellor has been very open about | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
championing this. He says that the 40p rate will kick in at a slightly | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
higher rate. Labour had a bad summer and the opinion polls seem to be | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
narrowing. Then they had a good hearty conference season. The best. | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
Has the Labour lead solidified or increased the little, maybe up to | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
eight points? If it is a good Autumn Statement, or the Tories start to | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
narrow that lead by the end of the year? If they go into 2014 trailing | :12:53. | :12:59. | |
by single digits, they cannot complain too much. That gives them | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
18 months to chip away at Labour's lead. But do they do that chipping | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
away by eight bidding Labour or do they let time take its course and | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
let the economic recovery continue, maybe business investment joins | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
consumer spending as a source of that recovery, and a year from now, | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
household disposable income begins to rise? That is a better hope than | :13:22. | :13:30. | |
engaging in a bidding war. Be assured, they will be highly | :13:31. | :13:32. | |
political budgets. That's all for today. The Daily Politics is on BBC | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
Two at midday all this week, except on Thursday when we'll start at | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
10:45 to bring you live coverage and analysis of the Chancellor's Autumn | :13:40. | :13:41. | |
Statement in a Daily Politics special for BBC Two and the BBC News | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
Channel. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:46. | :13:48. |