26/02/2017 Sunday Politics South


26/02/2017

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:40.:00:45.

Theresa May still has plenty on her plate,

:00:46.:00:46.

not least a battle over Brexit in the Lords.

:00:47.:00:48.

But after Thursday's by-election win in Copeland,

:00:49.:00:50.

the Prime Minister looks stronger than ever.

:00:51.:00:52.

Jeremy Corbyn's Labour saw off Ukip in this week's other by-election,

:00:53.:00:54.

but losing to the Tories in a heartland seat leaves the party

:00:55.:00:57.

The leader of Scottish Labour joins me live.

:00:58.:01:07.

You look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden!

:01:08.:01:12.

And Donald Trump may have been mocked for talking about the impact

:01:13.:01:15.

In the south, are you going to be but after riots in Stockholm this

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In the south, are you going to be hit by an unexpected rise in council

:01:24.:01:25.

tax? Some parish tax in all but four local

:01:26.:01:30.

authorities be enough to alleviate the crisis in social care?

:01:31.:01:37.

And joining me for all of that, three journalists who I'm pleased

:01:38.:01:40.

to say have so far not been banned from the White House.

:01:41.:01:48.

I've tried banning them from this show repeatedly,

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but somehow they just keep getting past BBC security - it's Sam Coates,

:01:53.:01:55.

We have had two crucial by-elections, the results last

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Thursday night. It's now Sunday morning, where do they believe

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British politics? I think it leaves British politics looking as if it

:02:11.:02:14.

may go ahead without Ukip is a strong and robust force. It is

:02:15.:02:19.

difficult to see from where we are now how Ukip rebuilds into a

:02:20.:02:24.

credible vote winning operation. I think it looks unprofessional, the

:02:25.:02:29.

campaign they fought in Stoke was clearly winnable because the margin

:02:30.:02:33.

with which Labour held onto that seat was not an impressive one but

:02:34.:02:37.

they put forward arguably the wrong candidate, it was messy and it's

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hard to see where they go from here, particularly with the money problems

:02:42.:02:45.

they have and even Nigel Farage saying he's fed up of the party. If

:02:46.:02:51.

Isabel is right, if Ukip is no longer a major factor, you look at

:02:52.:02:58.

the state of Labour and the Lib Dems coming from a long way behind

:02:59.:03:02.

despite their local government by-election successes, Tories never

:03:03.:03:07.

more dominant. I think Theresa May is in a fascinating situation. She's

:03:08.:03:11.

the most powerful Prime Minister of modern times for now because she

:03:12.:03:17.

faces no confident, formidable opposition. Unlike Margaret Thatcher

:03:18.:03:21.

who in the 1980s, although she won landslides in the end, often looked

:03:22.:03:26.

like she was in trouble. She was inferred quite often in the build-up

:03:27.:03:32.

to the election. David Owen, Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams. And quite

:03:33.:03:39.

often she was worried. At the moment Theresa May faces no formidable UK

:03:40.:03:44.

opposition. However, she is both strong and fragile because her

:03:45.:03:48.

agenda is Brexit, which I still think many have not got to grips

:03:49.:03:52.

with in terms of how complex and training and difficult it will be

:03:53.:03:57.

for her. Thatcher faced no equivalent to Brexit so she is both

:03:58.:04:03.

strong, formidably strong because of the wider UK political context, and

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very fragile. It is just when you think you have never been more

:04:08.:04:11.

dominant you are actually at the most dangerous, what can possibly go

:04:12.:04:16.

wrong? I think that the money of her MPs they haven't begun to think

:04:17.:04:20.

through the practicalities of Brexit and she does have a working majority

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of about 17 in the House of Commons so at any point she could be put

:04:26.:04:28.

under pressure from really opposition these days is done by the

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two wins inside the Conservative Party, either the 15 Europhiles or

:04:33.:04:39.

the bigger group of about 60 Brexiteers who have continued to

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operate as a united and disciplined force within the Conservative Party

:04:43.:04:47.

to get their agenda on the table. Either of those wings could be

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disappointed at any point in the next three and a half years and that

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would put her under pressure. I wouldn't completely rule out Ukip

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coming back. The reason Ukip lost in Stoke I think it's because at the

:05:01.:05:04.

moment Theresa May is delivering pretty much everything Ukip figures

:05:05.:05:11.

might want to see. We might find the phrase Brexit means Brexit quite

:05:12.:05:13.

anodyne but I think she is convincing people she will press

:05:14.:05:17.

ahead with their agenda and deliver the leave vote that people buy a

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slim majority voted for. Should that change, should there be talk of

:05:24.:05:27.

transition periods, shut the migration settlement not make people

:05:28.:05:31.

happy, then I think Ukip risks charging back up the centre ground

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and causing more problems in future. That could be a two year gap in

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which Ukip would have to survive. As I said, Ukip is on our agenda for

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today. Thursday was a big night

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for political obsessives like us, with not one but two

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significant by-elections, Ellie braved the wind and rain

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to bring you this report. The clouds had gathered,

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the winds blew at gale force. Was a change in the air, or just

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a weather system called Doris? Voters in Stoke-on-Trent

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were about to find out. It's here, a sports hall

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on a Thursday night that the country's media reckon

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is the true eye of the storm. Would Labour suffer a lightning

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strike to its very heart, or would the Ukip threat proved

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to be a damp squib? Everybody seems to think the result

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in Stoke-on-Trent would be close, just as they did 150-odd miles away

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in Copeland, where the Tories are counting on stealing another

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Labour heartland seat. Areas of high pressure in both

:06:33.:06:37.

places, and some strange sights. We knew this wasn't a normal

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by-election, and to prove it there is the rapper,

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Professor Green. Chart-toppers aside,

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winner of Stoke-on-Trent hit parade was announced first,

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where everyone was so excited the candidates didn't even make it

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onto the stage for the result. And I do hereby declare

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that the said Gareth Snell Nigel Farage has said that victory

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here in Stoke-on-Trent But Ukip's newish leader

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played down the defeat, insisting his party's

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time would come. Are you going to stand again

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as an MP or has this No doubt I will stand again,

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don't worry about that. The politics of hope beat

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the politics of fear. I think Ukip are the ones this

:07:30.:07:38.

weekend who have got But a few minutes later,

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it turned out Labour had Harrison, Trudy Lynn,

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the Conservative Party That was more than 2,000

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votes ahead of Labour. What has happened here tonight

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is a truly historic event. Labour were disappointed,

:08:02.:08:06.

but determined to be optimistic At a point when we're 15 to 18

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points behind in the polls... The Conservatives within 2000 votes

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I think is an incredible The morning after the night

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before, the losing parties were licking their wounds

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and their lips over breakfast. For years and years,

:08:29.:08:32.

Ukip was Nigel Farage, That has now changed,

:08:33.:08:35.

that era has gone. It's a new era, it is

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a second age for us. So that needs to be

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more fully embedded, it needs to be more defined,

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you know, and that will We have to continue to improve

:08:50.:08:52.

in seats where we have stood. As we have done here,

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we've improved on our 2015 result, that's what important,

:09:02.:09:03.

is that we are taking steps Can I be the first to come

:09:04.:09:06.

here today to congratulate you on being elected the new MP

:09:07.:09:11.

for Stoke on Trent Central. Jeremy Corbyn has just arrived

:09:12.:09:14.

in Stoke to welcome his newest MP. Not sure he's going to

:09:15.:09:17.

Copeland later though. Earlier in the day, the Labour

:09:18.:09:22.

leader had made clear he'd considered and discounted some

:09:23.:09:25.

theories about the party's Since you found out that you'd lost

:09:26.:09:27.

a seat to a governing party for the first time

:09:28.:09:33.

since the Falklands War, have you at any point this morning

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looked in the mirror and asked yourself this question -

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could the problem actually be me? In the end it was the Conservatives

:09:41.:09:45.

who came out on top. No governing party has made

:09:46.:09:52.

a gain at a by-election With the self-styled people's army

:09:53.:09:55.

of Ukip halted in Stoke, and Labour's wash-out

:09:56.:10:01.

here in Copeland... There's little chance of rain

:10:02.:10:05.

on Theresa May's parade. In the wake of that loss in

:10:06.:10:17.

Copeland, the Scottish Labour Party has been meeting for its spring

:10:18.:10:20.

conference in the Yesterday, deputy leader Tom Watson

:10:21.:10:22.

warned delegates that unless Labour took the by-election defeat

:10:23.:10:27.

seriously, the party's devastation in Scotland could be repeated

:10:28.:10:29.

south of the border. Well, I'm joined now

:10:30.:10:32.

by the leader of Scottish Labour, Even after your party had lost

:10:33.:10:48.

Copeland to the Tories and with Labour now trailing 16 points in the

:10:49.:10:51.

UK polls, you claim to have every faith that Jeremy Corbyn would

:10:52.:10:56.

absolutely win the general election. What evidence can you bring to

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support that? There is no doubt the result in Copeland was disappointing

:11:05.:11:06.

for the Labour Party and I think it's a collective feeling for

:11:07.:11:10.

everyone within the Labour Party and I want to do what I can to turn

:11:11.:11:13.

around the fortunes of our party. That's what I've committed to do

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while I have been the Scottish Labour leader. This two years ago we

:11:18.:11:24.

were down the mines so to speak in terms of losing the faith of working

:11:25.:11:27.

class communities across the country, but we listened very hard

:11:28.:11:31.

to the message voters are sending and responded to it. That's what I'm

:11:32.:11:35.

committed to doing in Scotland and that's what Jeremy Corbyn is

:11:36.:11:41.

committed to doing UK wide. The latest polls put Labour at 14% in

:11:42.:11:47.

Scotland, the Tories at ten points ahead of you in Scotland, even

:11:48.:11:53.

Theresa May is more popular than Jeremy Corbyn in Scotland. So I will

:11:54.:11:58.

try again - why are you so sure Jeremy Corbyn could win a general

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election? What I said when you are talking about Scotland is that I'm

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the leader of the Scottish Labour Party and I take responsibility for

:12:08.:12:11.

our policies here. Voters said very clearly after the Scottish

:12:12.:12:13.

Parliament election that they didn't have a clear enough sense of what we

:12:14.:12:17.

stood for so I have been advocating a very strong anti-austerity

:12:18.:12:21.

platform, coming up with ideas of how we can oppose the cuts and

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invest in our future. That is something Jeremy Corbyn also

:12:27.:12:29.

supports but I've also made it clear this weekend that we are opposed to

:12:30.:12:36.

a second independence referendum. I want to bring Scotland back together

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by focusing on the future and that's why I have been speaking about the

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federal solution for the UK. I know that Jeremy Corbyn shares that

:12:45.:12:48.

ambition because he is backing the plans for a people's Constitutional

:12:49.:12:51.

Convention. Yes, these are difficult times for the Scottish Labour Party

:12:52.:12:59.

and UK family, but I have a plan in place to turn things around. It will

:13:00.:13:04.

take time though. I'm still not sure why you are so sure the Labour party

:13:05.:13:09.

can win but let me come onto your plan. You want a UK wide

:13:10.:13:14.

Constitutional Convention and that lead to a new Federalist settlement.

:13:15.:13:20.

Is it the policy of the Labour Shadow Cabinet in Westminster to

:13:21.:13:27.

carve England into federal regions? What we support at a UK wide level

:13:28.:13:30.

is the people's constitutional convention. I have been careful to

:13:31.:13:34.

prescribe what I think is in the best interests of Scotland but not

:13:35.:13:37.

to dictate to other parts of the UK what is good for them, that's the

:13:38.:13:43.

point of the people's constitutional convention. You heard Tom Watson say

:13:44.:13:47.

there has to be a UK wide conversation about power, who has it

:13:48.:13:51.

and how it is exercised across England. England hasn't been part of

:13:52.:13:55.

this devolution story over the last 20 years, it is something that

:13:56.:14:00.

happened between Scotland and London or Wales and London. No wonder

:14:01.:14:05.

people in England feel disenfranchised from that. What

:14:06.:14:08.

evidence can you bring to show there is any appetite in England for an

:14:09.:14:14.

English federal solution to England, to carve England into federal

:14:15.:14:18.

regions? Have you spoken to John Prescott about this? He might tell

:14:19.:14:22.

you some of the difficulties. There's not even a debate about that

:14:23.:14:27.

here, Kezia Dugdale, it is fantasy. I speak to John Prescott regularly.

:14:28.:14:32.

What there is a debate about is the idea the world is changing so fast

:14:33.:14:36.

that globalisation is taking jobs away from communities in the

:14:37.:14:39.

north-east, that many working class communities feel left behind, that

:14:40.:14:44.

Westminster feels very far away and the politicians within it feel

:14:45.:14:47.

remote in part of the establishment. People are fed up with power being

:14:48.:14:51.

exercised somewhere else, that's where I think federalism comes in

:14:52.:14:54.

because it's about bringing power closer to people and in many ways

:14:55.:14:59.

it's forced on us because of Brexit. We know the United Kingdom is

:15:00.:15:07.

leaving the European Union so we have to talk about the repatriation

:15:08.:15:09.

of those powers from Brussels to Britain. I want many of those powers

:15:10.:15:12.

to go to the Scottish parliament but where should they go in the English

:15:13.:15:15.

context? It is not as things currently stand the policy of the

:15:16.:15:19.

English Labour Party to carve England into federal regions,

:15:20.:15:20.

correct? It is absolutely the policy of the

:15:21.:15:29.

UK Labour Party to support the people's Constitutional convention

:15:30.:15:34.

to examining these questions. I think it is really important. You're

:15:35.:15:38.

promising the Scottish people a federal solution, and you have not

:15:39.:15:42.

even squared your own party for a federal solution in England. That is

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not true. The UK Labour Party is united on this. I am going to

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Cardiff next month to meet with Carwyn Jones and various leaders.

:15:52.:15:56.

United on a federal solution? You know as well as I know it is not

:15:57.:16:00.

united on a federal solution. We will have a conversation about power

:16:01.:16:05.

in this country. It is not united on that

:16:06.:16:28.

issue? This is the direction of travel. It is what you heard

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yesterday from Sadiq Khan, from Tom Watson, when you hear from people

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like Nick Forbes who lead Newcastle City Council and Labour's Local

:16:35.:16:36.

Government Association. There is an appetite for talking about power.

:16:37.:16:39.

Talking is one thing. We need to have this conversation across the

:16:40.:16:41.

whole of the United Kingdom, to have a reformed United Kingdom. It is a

:16:42.:16:43.

conversation you're offering Scotland, not the policy. Let's come

:16:44.:16:45.

onto the labour made of London. He was in power for your conference. He

:16:46.:16:48.

wrote in the record yesterday, there is no difference between Scottish

:16:49.:16:50.

nationalism and racism. Would you like this opportunity to distance

:16:51.:16:54.

yourself from that absurd claim? I think that Sadiq Khan was very clear

:16:55.:16:58.

yesterday that he was not accusing the SNP of racism. What he was

:16:59.:17:03.

saying clearly is that nationalism by its very nature divides people

:17:04.:17:07.

and communities. That is what I said in my speech yesterday. I am fed up

:17:08.:17:12.

living in a divided and fractured country and society. Our politics is

:17:13.:17:16.

forcing is constantly to pick sides, whether you're a no, leave a remain,

:17:17.:17:22.

it brings out the worst in our politicians and politics. All the

:17:23.:17:25.

consensus we find in the grey areas is lost. That is why am standing

:17:26.:17:30.

under a banner that together we are stronger. We have to come up with

:17:31.:17:45.

ideas and focus on the future. That is why I agree with Sadiq Khan. He

:17:46.:17:49.

said quite clearly in the Daily Record yesterday, and that the last

:17:50.:17:51.

minute he adapted his speech to your conference yesterday, to try and

:17:52.:17:54.

reduce the impact, that there was no difference between Scottish

:17:55.:17:56.

nationalism and racism. Your colleague, and Sarwar, said that

:17:57.:18:00.

even after he had tried to introduce the caveats, all forms of

:18:01.:18:04.

nationalism rely on creating eyes and them. Let's call it for what it

:18:05.:18:12.

is. So you are implying that the Scottish Nationalists are racist.

:18:13.:18:16.

Would you care to distance yourself from that absurd claim? I utterly

:18:17.:18:20.

refute that that is what Sadiq Khan said. I would never suggest that the

:18:21.:18:26.

SNP are an inherently racist party. That does is a disservice. He did

:18:27.:18:31.

not see it. What he did say, however, is that nationalism is

:18:32.:18:35.

divisive. You know that better than anyone. I see your Twitter account.

:18:36.:18:40.

Regularly your attack for the job you do as a journalist. Politics in

:18:41.:18:45.

Scotland is divided on. I do not want to revisit that independence

:18:46.:18:51.

question again for that reason. As leader of the Labour Party, I want

:18:52.:18:53.

to bring our country back together, appeal to people who voted yes and

:18:54.:19:00.

no. That banner, together we are stronger, that is where the answers

:19:01.:19:03.

lie in defaulters can be found. If in response to the Mayor of London,

:19:04.:19:08.

your colleague says, let's call it out for what it is, what is he

:19:09.:19:12.

referring to if he is not implying that national symbol is racist? --

:19:13.:19:21.

and that nationalism is racist? He is saying that it leads to divisive

:19:22.:19:25.

politics. The Labour Party has always advocated that together we

:19:26.:19:29.

are stronger. Saying something is divisive is very different from

:19:30.:19:33.

saying something is racist. That is what the Mayor of London said. That

:19:34.:19:37.

is what your colleague was referring to. He did not. You would really

:19:38.:19:42.

struggle to quote that from the Mayor of London. He talked about

:19:43.:19:47.

being divided by race. What does that mean? I think he was very clear

:19:48.:19:54.

that he was talking about divided politics. There is an appetite the

:19:55.:19:57.

length and breadth of the country to end that divisive politics. That is

:19:58.:20:02.

what I stand for, focusing on the future, bringing people back

:20:03.:20:06.

together, concentrating on what the economy might look like in 20 years'

:20:07.:20:10.

time in coming up with ideas to tackle it today. Thank you for

:20:11.:20:11.

joining us. Thursday's win for Labour

:20:12.:20:13.

in Stoke-on-Trent Central gave some relief to Jeremy Corbyn,

:20:14.:20:15.

but for Ukip leader and defeated Stoke candidate Paul Nuttall

:20:16.:20:17.

there were no consolation prizes. I'm joined now by Mr Nuttall's

:20:18.:20:20.

principal political Welcome to the programme. Good

:20:21.:20:30.

morning. How long will Paul Nuttall survivors Ukip leader, days, weeks,

:20:31.:20:34.

months? You are in danger of not seeing the wood for the trees. Ukip

:20:35.:20:40.

was formed in 1993 with the express purpose, much mocked, of getting

:20:41.:20:45.

Britain out of the European Union. Under the brilliant leadership of

:20:46.:20:48.

Nigel Farage, we were crucial in forcing a vacuous Prime Minister to

:20:49.:20:52.

make a referendum promise he did not want to give. With our friends in

:20:53.:20:58.

Fort leave and other organisations. Mac we know that. Get to the answer.

:20:59.:21:04.

We helped to win that referendum. The iteration of Ukip at the moment

:21:05.:21:09.

that we're in, the primary purpose, we are the guard dog of Brexit.

:21:10.:21:14.

Viewed through that prism, the Stoke by-election was a brilliant success.

:21:15.:21:19.

A brilliant success? We had the Tory candidate that had pumped out

:21:20.:21:24.

publicity for Remain, for Cameron Bradley, preaching the gospel of

:21:25.:21:28.

Brexit. We had a Labour candidate and we know what he really felt

:21:29.:21:33.

about Brexit, preaching the Gospel according to Brexit. You lost. Well

:21:34.:21:35.

the by-election was going on, we had the Labour Party in the House of

:21:36.:21:52.

Commons pass the idea of trickling Article 50 by a landslide. Are

:21:53.:21:54.

passionate thing, the thing that 35,000 Ukip members care about the

:21:55.:21:56.

most, it is an extraordinary achievement. I am very proud. What

:21:57.:21:59.

would you have described as victory as? If we could have got Paul

:22:00.:22:01.

Nuttall into the House of Commons, that would have been a fantastic

:22:02.:22:05.

cherry on the top. Losing was an extraordinary achievement? Many Ukip

:22:06.:22:11.

supporters the Stoke was winnable, but Paul Nuttall's campaign was

:22:12.:22:17.

marred by controversy, Tory voters refuse to vote tactically for Ukip

:22:18.:22:24.

to beat Labour, his campaign, Mr Nuttall is to blame for not winning

:22:25.:22:28.

what was a winnable seat? I do not see that at all. This is

:22:29.:22:32.

counterintuitive, but Jeremy Corbyn did do one thing that made it more

:22:33.:22:37.

difficult for us to win. Fantasy. That was to take Labour into a

:22:38.:22:42.

Brexit position formerly. Just over 50 Labour MPs had voted against

:22:43.:22:48.

triggering Article 50. In political terms, we have intimidated the

:22:49.:22:51.

Labour Party into backing Brexit. How much good is it doing you? It

:22:52.:22:54.

comes to the heart of the problem your party faces.

:22:55.:23:11.

You're struggling to win Tory Eurosceptic voters. For the moment,

:23:12.:23:13.

they seem happy with Theresa May. Stoke shows you're not winning

:23:14.:23:15.

Labour Brexit voters either. If you cannot get the solution Tolisso

:23:16.:23:17.

labour, where does your Broad come from? In terms of the by-election,

:23:18.:23:20.

it came very early for Paul. I'm talking about the future. We have a

:23:21.:23:23.

future agenda, and ideological argument with Jeremy Corbyn's Labour

:23:24.:23:27.

Party, which is wedded to the notion of global citizenship and does not

:23:28.:23:32.

recognise the nation state. We know he spent Christmas sitting around

:23:33.:23:36.

campfires with Mexican Marxist dreaming of global government. We

:23:37.:23:40.

believe in the nation state. We believe that the patriotic working

:23:41.:23:43.

class vote will be receptive to that. Your Broad went down by 9% in

:23:44.:23:49.

Cortland. In Copeland we were squeezed. In Stoke, we were unable

:23:50.:23:54.

to squeeze the Tories, who are on a high. Our agenda is that social

:23:55.:24:00.

solidarity is important but we arrange it in this country by nation

:24:01.:24:04.

and community. We want an immigration system that is not only

:24:05.:24:09.

reducing... We know what you want. I do not think people do. You had a

:24:10.:24:13.

whole by-election to tell people and they did not vote for you and. When

:24:14.:24:18.

Nigel Farage said it was fundamental that you were winner in Stoke, he

:24:19.:24:23.

was wrong? Nigel chooses his own words. I would not rewrite them. It

:24:24.:24:31.

would be a massive advantage to Ukip to have a leader in the House of

:24:32.:24:34.

Commons in time to reply to the budget, Prime Minister's questions

:24:35.:24:37.

and all of that. But we have taken the strategic view that we will

:24:38.:24:40.

fight the Labour Party for the working class vote. It is also true

:24:41.:24:45.

that the Conservatives will make a pitch for the working class vote

:24:46.:24:49.

might as well. All three parties have certain advantages and

:24:50.:24:53.

disadvantages. As part of that page, Nigel Farage said that your leader,

:24:54.:24:58.

Paul Nuttall, should have taken a clear, by which I assume he meant

:24:59.:25:03.

tough, line on immigration. Do you agree? He took a tough line on

:25:04.:25:08.

immigration. He developed that idea at our party conference in the

:25:09.:25:12.

spring. Nigel Farage did not think so? Nigel Farage made his speech

:25:13.:25:16.

before Paul Nuttall made his speech. He said this in the aftermath of the

:25:17.:25:22.

result. Once we have freedom to control and Borders, Paul wants to

:25:23.:25:29.

set up an immigration system that includes an aptitude test, do you

:25:30.:25:32.

have skills that the British economy needs, but also, and attitudes test,

:25:33.:25:38.

do you subscribe to core British values such as gender equality and

:25:39.:25:43.

freedom of expression? We will be making these arguments. It is

:25:44.:25:47.

certainly true that Paul's campaign was thrown off course by,

:25:48.:25:51.

particularly something that we knew the Labour Party had been preparing

:25:52.:25:57.

to run, the smear on the untruths, the implications about Hillsborough.

:25:58.:26:00.

If you knew you should have anticipated it. Alan Banks, he helps

:26:01.:26:06.

to bankroll your party, he said that Mr Nuttall needs to toss out the

:26:07.:26:11.

Tory cabal in Europe, by which he means Douglas Carswell, Neil

:26:12.:26:14.

Hamilton. Should they be stripped of their membership? Of course not. As

:26:15.:26:20.

far as I knew, Alan Banks was a member of the Conservative Party

:26:21.:26:23.

formally. I do not know who this Tory cabal is supposed to be. He

:26:24.:26:28.

says that your party is more like a jumble sale than a political party.

:26:29.:26:32.

He says that the party should make him chairman or they will work. What

:26:33.:26:38.

do you see to that? He has made that statement several times over many

:26:39.:26:41.

months, including if you do not throw out your only MP. Douglas

:26:42.:26:46.

Carswell has managed to win twice under Ukip colours. Should Tibi

:26:47.:26:50.

chairman? I think we have an excellent young chairman at the

:26:51.:26:57.

moment. He is doing a good job. The idea that Leave.EU was as smooth

:26:58.:27:02.

running brilliant machine, that does not sit with the facts as I

:27:03.:27:05.

understand them. Suzanne Evans says it would be no great loss for Ukip

:27:06.:27:09.

if Mr Banks walked out, severed his ties and took his money elsewhere.

:27:10.:27:15.

Is she right. I am always happy people who want to give money and

:27:16.:27:18.

support your party want to stay in the party. The best donors donate

:27:19.:27:23.

and do not seek to dictate. If they are experts in certain fields,

:27:24.:27:27.

people should listen to their views but to have a daughter telling the

:27:28.:27:31.

party leader who should be party chairman, that is a nonstarter. You

:27:32.:27:36.

have described your existing party chairman is excellent. He said it

:27:37.:27:41.

could be 20 years before Ukip wins by-election. Is he being too

:27:42.:27:46.

optimistic? There is a general election coming up in the years'

:27:47.:27:50.

time. We will be aiming to win seats in that. Before that, we will be the

:27:51.:27:55.

guard dog for Brexit, to make sure this extraordinary achievement of a

:27:56.:28:00.

little party... You are guard dog without a kennel, you cannot get

:28:01.:28:04.

seat? We're keeping the big establishment parties to do the will

:28:05.:28:08.

of the people. If we achieve nothing else at all, that will be a

:28:09.:28:12.

magnificent achievement. Thank you very much.

:28:13.:28:14.

Sweden isn't somewhere we talk about often

:28:15.:28:15.

should because this week it was pulled into

:28:16.:28:19.

the global spotlight, thanks

:28:20.:28:20.

Last weekend, Mr Trump was mocked for referring to an incident that

:28:21.:28:29.

had occurred last night in Sweden as a result of the country's open

:28:30.:28:32.

Critics were quick to point out that no such incident had occurred

:28:33.:28:36.

and Mr Trump later clarified on Twitter and he was talking

:28:37.:28:38.

about a report he had watched on Fox News.

:28:39.:28:42.

But as if to prove he was onto something,

:28:43.:28:44.

next day a riot broke out in a Stockholm suburb

:28:45.:28:47.

with a large migrant population, following unrest in such areas

:28:48.:28:49.

So what has been Sweden's experience of migration?

:28:50.:28:59.

In 2015, a record 162,000 people claimed asylum there, the second

:29:00.:29:01.

That number dropped to 29,000 in 2016 after the country introduced

:29:02.:29:08.

border restrictions and stopped offering permanent

:29:09.:29:10.

Tensions have risen, along with claims of links to crime,

:29:11.:29:18.

although official statistics do not provide evidence of a refugee driven

:29:19.:29:20.

Nigel Farage defended Mr Trump, claiming this week that migrants

:29:21.:29:29.

have led to a dramatic rise in sexual offences.

:29:30.:29:32.

Although the country does have the highest reported

:29:33.:29:34.

rate of rape in Europe, Swedish authorities say recent rises

:29:35.:29:36.

were due to changes to how rape and sex crimes are recorded.

:29:37.:29:42.

Aside from the issue of crime, Sweden has struggled

:29:43.:29:44.

Levels of inequality between natives and migrants when it comes

:29:45.:29:50.

Unemployment rates are three times higher for foreign-born workers

:29:51.:29:53.

We're joined now by Laila Naraghi, she's a Swedish MP from the

:29:54.:30:06.

governing Social Democratic Party, and by the author and

:30:07.:30:08.

The Swedish political establishment was outraged by Mr Trump's remarks,

:30:09.:30:23.

pointing to a riot that hadn't taken place, then a few nights later

:30:24.:30:28.

serious riots did break out in a largely migrant suburb of Stockholm

:30:29.:30:32.

so he wasn't far out, was he? I think he was far out because he is

:30:33.:30:37.

misleading the public with how he uses these statistics. I think it is

:30:38.:30:42.

important to remember that the violence has decreased in Sweden for

:30:43.:30:46.

the past 20 years and research shows there is no evidence that indicate

:30:47.:30:50.

that immigration leads to crime and so I think it is far out. The social

:30:51.:30:58.

unrest in these different areas is not because of their ethical

:30:59.:31:02.

backgrounds of these people living there but more about social economic

:31:03.:31:08.

reasons. OK, no evidence migrants are responsible for any kind of

:31:09.:31:12.

crime? This story reminds me after what happened to the Charlie Hebdo

:31:13.:31:20.

attacks in Paris when also a Fox News commentator said something that

:31:21.:31:25.

was outlandish about Paris and the Mayor of Paris threatened to sue Fox

:31:26.:31:29.

News, saying you are making our city look bad. It's a bit like that

:31:30.:31:33.

because the truth on this lies between Donald Trump on the Swedish

:31:34.:31:38.

authorities on this. Sweden and Swedish government is very reluctant

:31:39.:31:44.

to admit any downsides of its own migration policy and particularly

:31:45.:31:47.

the migration it hard in 2015 but there are very obvious downsides

:31:48.:31:53.

because Sweden is not a country that needs a non-skilled labour force

:31:54.:31:59.

which doesn't speak Swedish. What was raised as the matter of

:32:00.:32:04.

evidence, what is the evidence? First of all if I can say so the

:32:05.:32:08.

rape statistics in Sweden that have been cited are familiar with the

:32:09.:32:11.

rape statistics across other countries that have seen similar

:32:12.:32:16.

forms of migration. Danish authorities and the Norwegian

:32:17.:32:20.

authorities have recorded a similar thing. It is not done by ethnicity

:32:21.:32:25.

so we don't know. And this is part of the problem. It is again a lot of

:32:26.:32:31.

lies and rumours going about. When it is about for example rape, it is

:32:32.:32:37.

difficult to compare the statistics because in Sweden for example many

:32:38.:32:42.

crimes that in other countries are labelled as bodily harm or assault

:32:43.:32:47.

are in Sweden labelled as rape. Also how it is counted because if a woman

:32:48.:32:52.

goes to the police and reports that her husband or boyfriend has raped

:32:53.:33:00.

her, and done it every night for one year, in Sweden that is counted as

:33:01.:33:05.

365 offences. Something is going wrong, I look at the recent news

:33:06.:33:10.

from Sweden. Six Afghan child refugees committed suicide in the

:33:11.:33:13.

last six months, unemployment among recent migrants now five times

:33:14.:33:19.

higher than among non-migrants. We have seen gang violence in Malmo

:33:20.:33:25.

where a British child was killed by a grenade, rioting in Stockholm.

:33:26.:33:29.

Police in Sweden say there are 53 areas of the country where it is now

:33:30.:33:33.

dangerous to patrol. Something has gone wrong. Let me get back to what

:33:34.:33:40.

I think is the core of this debate if I may and that is the right for

:33:41.:33:45.

people fleeing war and political persecution to seek asylum, that is

:33:46.:33:49.

a human right. In Sweden we don't think we can do everything, but we

:33:50.:33:54.

want to live up to our obligation, every country has an obligation to

:33:55.:33:58.

receive asylum seekers. But you have changed your policy on that because

:33:59.:34:03.

having taken 163,001 year alone, you have then closed your borders, I

:34:04.:34:07.

think very wisely, closed the border which means 10,000 people per day at

:34:08.:34:13.

one point were walking from Denmark in to Malmo, you rightly changed

:34:14.:34:18.

that so he realised whatever ones aspirations in terms of asylum, it

:34:19.:34:21.

sometimes meets reality and Sweden is meeting the reality of this.

:34:22.:34:28.

Let's respond to that. We are not naive, we know we cannot do

:34:29.:34:31.

everything but we want to try to do our share as we think other

:34:32.:34:35.

countries also need to do their share. But let me say that, if you

:34:36.:34:39.

look at what the World Economic Forum is saying about our country

:34:40.:34:42.

they show we are in the top of many rankings, the best country to live

:34:43.:34:47.

in, to age in, to have children in, to start into -- to start

:34:48.:34:55.

enterprise. Why have you not been so good at integrating migrants? The

:34:56.:35:02.

unemployment rate is five times higher among migrants than

:35:03.:35:06.

non-migrants and that's the highest ratio of any country in the EU and

:35:07.:35:11.

the OECD, why have you not been able to integrate the people you have

:35:12.:35:16.

brought in for humanitarian reasons? I'm sure there are things we can do

:35:17.:35:21.

much better of course but if you look for example at the immigration

:35:22.:35:24.

that came in the 90s from the Balkans, they are well integrated

:35:25.:35:29.

and contributing to our society. They are starting enterprises and

:35:30.:35:31.

working in different fields of society, and they help our country.

:35:32.:35:40.

Why have they not got jobs, the migrants that have come in? It takes

:35:41.:35:46.

time. In the 90s we managed it and I'm sure we can do it again. Can I

:35:47.:35:51.

put this into some context, it is clear Sweden has got problems as a

:35:52.:35:55.

result of the number of migrants that come in, whether it is as bad

:35:56.:36:00.

as Mr Trump and others make out is another matter, but perhaps I can

:36:01.:36:03.

put it into context. Malmo, which has been at the centre of many of

:36:04.:36:08.

these migrant problems, its homicide rate is three per hundred thousand.

:36:09.:36:15.

Chicago, 28 per 100,000. It may have problems but they are not huge. No,

:36:16.:36:21.

they are pretty huge and I think they will grow. The Balkan refugees

:36:22.:36:26.

into Sweden in the 90s did bring a lot of problems and Sweden did for

:36:27.:36:30.

the first time see serious ethnic gang rivalries. There was an upsurge

:36:31.:36:34.

in gang-related violence that has gone on since. The situation in

:36:35.:36:40.

Malmo in particular is exaggerated by some people, there's no doubt

:36:41.:36:44.

about that, I have been there many times and it is undoubtedly

:36:45.:36:47.

exaggerated by some, it is also vastly unpersuaded by the Swedish

:36:48.:36:53.

authorities. -- understated. In 2010, one in ten Jews in Malmo

:36:54.:37:03.

registered some form of attack on them. It got so bad that in 2010

:37:04.:37:13.

people offered to escort Jews... You have had a good say and I have got

:37:14.:37:17.

to be fair here, what do you say to that, Laila Naraghi? There are

:37:18.:37:23.

people trying to frame our country in a certain way to push their own

:37:24.:37:27.

agenda. I regret that President Trump is trying to slander our

:37:28.:37:34.

country. But what about the specific point on Malmo? If you speak to

:37:35.:37:37.

people in Malmo and also to different congregations, they say

:37:38.:37:42.

they are working together with the authorities to improve this. I say

:37:43.:37:46.

again, there are a lot of people trying to spread rumours and lies.

:37:47.:37:51.

Your situation is very like the situation we had in Britain when we

:37:52.:37:56.

have these situations in Rotherham and elsewhere. 1400 girls were raped

:37:57.:38:00.

in Rotherham before police even admitted it was going on. That

:38:01.:38:05.

happened in Britain in the last decade, a similar phenomenon. An

:38:06.:38:08.

upsurge in particularly sexual and other forms of violence and then

:38:09.:38:12.

total denial by an entire political class is now something that is

:38:13.:38:17.

happening in Sweden. I see it in Swedish authorities and the denial

:38:18.:38:20.

that comes up and the desire to laugh and dismiss Trump but he's not

:38:21.:38:25.

answer nothing and that's a painful thing for any society to want to

:38:26.:38:32.

admit to. There are number of Swedes who think the establishment is

:38:33.:38:39.

covering up the true statistics, that you don't break crime down by

:38:40.:38:44.

ethnic crimes, people are suspicious of the centre-left and centre-right

:38:45.:38:49.

parties now in Sweden. There is no denial and no cover-up. This is what

:38:50.:38:53.

I'm speaking about when I say people are trying to frame it in a certain

:38:54.:38:57.

way. The social unrest is not because of the ethnical background

:38:58.:39:01.

of the people living there but rather because of different

:39:02.:39:05.

socioeconomics conditions. There is no research that shows

:39:06.:39:10.

immigration... But you don't do the research into it. Swedish

:39:11.:39:13.

authorities deliberately ensure you cannot carry out such research and

:39:14.:39:17.

after the attacks in Cologne in 2015 it was the first time then that the

:39:18.:39:21.

Swedish authorities and press admitted that similar sexual

:39:22.:39:25.

molestation have been going on for years in Sweden. Is it right to

:39:26.:39:32.

think, given the problem is maybe not as bad as many people make out

:39:33.:39:37.

but clearly problems, given these problems, is the age of mass asylum

:39:38.:39:42.

seeking for Sweden over? You have cut the numbers by 80% coming in

:39:43.:39:47.

last year compared with 2015, is it over while you concentrate on

:39:48.:39:51.

getting right the people that you have there already? We want to do

:39:52.:39:56.

our share, we have done a lot and now we are concentrating of course

:39:57.:39:59.

on integration and making sure people get a job, and also

:40:00.:40:13.

on big welfare investments because it's important to remember that for

:40:14.:40:16.

eight years Sweden were governed by a government that prioritised big

:40:17.:40:18.

tax cuts instead of investment in welfare. It may just not work. I am

:40:19.:40:22.

grateful to you both, we have to leave it there.

:40:23.:40:23.

It's coming up to 11:40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:40:24.:40:25.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:40:26.:40:28.

the Week Ahead, when we'll be asking if the Government is facing defeat

:40:29.:40:41.

Welcome to Sunday Politics South - my name's Peter Henley.

:40:42.:40:44.

On today's show: Dorset council leaders this week asked

:40:45.:40:56.

They say it was inevitable but have they reached the final movements too

:40:57.:41:12.

soon? More on that in a moment. Donald Jones is the leader of the

:41:13.:41:15.

Conservatives and the leader of the council in Portsmouth. Is it the

:41:16.:41:22.

leader or the message that was wrong there? I'm not sure. I am with

:41:23.:41:28.

Jeremy Corbyn, or my heart is. I'm not sure whether my head is. Has it

:41:29.:41:37.

been like that for a while? I think Koblenz was a very particular case.

:41:38.:41:43.

it was quite important to the people it was quite important to the people

:41:44.:41:49.

who lived there. And therefore it's him, because it is his views on

:41:50.:41:52.

nuclear power rather than the Labour Party. Absolutely. Jeremy did come

:41:53.:42:01.

out and support nuclear energy. But maybe people weren't sure whether he

:42:02.:42:05.

really meant it. City be clearer about what he does mean in the wake

:42:06.:42:12.

of the membership they be seeing? I think possibly could. I think it's

:42:13.:42:16.

very sad that we have lost Copeland, but we haven't we need to learn by

:42:17.:42:23.

that. I would like Jeremy to be a bit more outspoken maybe sometimes.

:42:24.:42:30.

That seems strange because lots of people think he is too outspoken.

:42:31.:42:35.

Ukip voters stayed with you in Stoke. Ukip in Portsmouth is quite

:42:36.:42:41.

important. They have kept you in. Are you concerned? Or do you not

:42:42.:42:46.

care about what is happening with Ukip? I think yesterday's results in

:42:47.:42:54.

both Stoke and in Copeland are very interesting, because what we have

:42:55.:42:57.

noticed is that Ukip are really not polling. They're always the

:42:58.:43:00.

bridesmaid, never the bride. They bridesmaid, never the bride. They

:43:01.:43:02.

are really not a threat now. They are really not a threat now. They

:43:03.:43:06.

are a party about the European referendum which has now happens. We

:43:07.:43:11.

are exiting the EU and the party has failed to secure an identity. The

:43:12.:43:18.

Conservatives to win the Copeland seat after 18 years of being held by

:43:19.:43:21.

Labour is reading endorsement the government. Seven years into an

:43:22.:43:24.

austerity programme, it is an austerity programme, it is an

:43:25.:43:27.

encouraging message for Theresa May that she is on the right path, the

:43:28.:43:31.

economy is growing and Britain is really here, means business. The

:43:32.:43:36.

Conservatives are taking the UK from strength to strength. Issue missing

:43:37.:43:40.

a trick in not going for a mandate from the country now? No. She would

:43:41.:43:43.

have to take that back to parliaments. At the moment we are

:43:44.:43:46.

doing a good job. If there was a doing a good job. If there was a

:43:47.:43:49.

risk that we wouldn't win the General Election in 2020, she may

:43:50.:43:54.

choose to go sooner. I don't think there is any prospect of Labour

:43:55.:43:59.

beating the Conservatives and 2020. We are doing the things that people

:44:00.:44:02.

want to do which is fixing a broken economy has taken already. It is all

:44:03.:44:14.

very clear, isn't it? When I look at the situation in terms of local

:44:15.:44:17.

governments, where we have had budgets cut year-on-year over this

:44:18.:44:24.

past eight years, where we need to be able to raise taxation to fund

:44:25.:44:29.

children's social care, which is an children's social care, which is an

:44:30.:44:32.

even bigger mess in some places. even bigger mess in some places.

:44:33.:44:37.

Actually, the country isn't in the same... The good people at Stoke...

:44:38.:44:48.

You take some consolation from that? They stuck with Labour. We have now

:44:49.:44:54.

got a brilliant new Labour MP in Stoke. A local guy who understands

:44:55.:45:00.

the situation and he will make a massive difference. But the Labour

:45:01.:45:06.

vote share went down last turnout was around 46%. That is not a

:45:07.:45:12.

ringing endorsement. As we creep closer to triggering our departure

:45:13.:45:15.

from the EU, uncertainty looms large for the South's economy. Concerns

:45:16.:45:20.

about Brexit reaching all sectors including the arts. Listen to this.

:45:21.:45:32.

You might not recognise... Sorry, you would recognise the tune from

:45:33.:45:35.

the antiques road show but maybe not the players. That is the EU baraka

:45:36.:45:40.

struck currently based in Oxford. They announced it would soon moved

:45:41.:45:44.

to Belgium as a direct result of last June's referendum. The

:45:45.:45:48.

orchestra fears members will face stricter at the -- Visa regulations.

:45:49.:45:55.

Joining us now from Oxford is the orchestra's director-general, or

:45:56.:46:00.

James. It is the EU orchestra, I suppose the clue is the name. He

:46:01.:46:06.

were founded -- funded by the EU, was it inevitable? Yes. The clue is

:46:07.:46:12.

definitely in the name. We are co-funded by the European Union and

:46:13.:46:17.

we are an official cultural ambassador of the European Union, so

:46:18.:46:22.

in our case it was when rather than less. -- when we would move rather

:46:23.:46:37.

than if we would move. To have longer-term sustainability and

:46:38.:46:42.

eligibility. As a UK citizen, what are we going to replace it with?

:46:43.:46:46.

Have we lost this or is there a possibility that Oxford will get its

:46:47.:46:53.

own? I don't think it is a simple solution is bad. The orchestra will

:46:54.:46:57.

continue to move around, it may be continue to move around, it may be

:46:58.:47:02.

more difficult to move, but it is the bigger picture that is a more

:47:03.:47:07.

interesting question, but UK musicians and the cultural and

:47:08.:47:12.

educational sector will find it much harder to be able to join in with

:47:13.:47:17.

Astbury dissipated in these European cultural programmes and vice versa.

:47:18.:47:24.

The travel restrictions are certainly going to make a

:47:25.:47:27.

considerable difference to the way that we move around, because we

:47:28.:47:30.

often move from country to country, day by day, for concerts night after

:47:31.:47:38.

night. You don't want us to cut off, obviously. This has been the job you

:47:39.:47:42.

have been doing, to bring European culture together. What would

:47:43.:47:48.

actually stop them? Even in a hard Brexit, stop the orchestra coming

:47:49.:47:53.

back here? Only work permits and these restrictions would stop us

:47:54.:47:57.

coming back here. It would be added bureaucracy, and I'm not sure that's

:47:58.:48:01.

a lot of concern promoters and festival promoters... You don't know

:48:02.:48:08.

about that. We don't know but it seems every likelihood that it's

:48:09.:48:12.

going to be more, located. And our instruments are thoroughly

:48:13.:48:18.

specialise and we will need special arrangements. Musicians have the

:48:19.:48:23.

widest chance to travel around. Yes, it has always been that way. It is

:48:24.:48:28.

part of the heritage that people always moves to find work, to

:48:29.:48:33.

perform. This will without question become more difficult. Maybe you

:48:34.:48:40.

should be arguing that. That other systems of the future we can allow

:48:41.:48:46.

orchestras like yours to continue. I would agree 100%. I still think

:48:47.:48:51.

inclusive and it is very strange for inclusive and it is very strange for

:48:52.:48:56.

a UK organisation to be trying to run a European Union entity outside

:48:57.:49:00.

of the EU. It just doesn't make sense. It is not just musicians, it

:49:01.:49:09.

is academics in particular as well. Theresa May, did you we have had

:49:10.:49:12.

from government is that it will be fine, we are maintaining the status

:49:13.:49:15.

quo, there won't be any loss of confidence but it is already

:49:16.:49:20.

happening. Obviously the orchestra, the title is in the name. It is

:49:21.:49:26.

funded by the EU. They are having to relocate into a European Union

:49:27.:49:29.

member states to secure their ongoing funding, which I fully

:49:30.:49:33.

appreciate. I think the concern for me and rather people across the

:49:34.:49:36.

country, and for Paul himself, is country, and for Paul himself, is

:49:37.:49:41.

that we ensure that musicians and creative industries are able to

:49:42.:49:45.

travel back to Britain when they come to play. For example, in London

:49:46.:49:49.

at some of the beautiful symphony orchestra has as we have. I'm sure

:49:50.:49:53.

that will be sorted out. Musicians have travelled here from all around

:49:54.:49:56.

the world for hundreds of years and I don't see that as being a barrier.

:49:57.:49:59.

But as you understand, as European But as you understand, as European

:50:00.:50:03.

funded orchestra, why they need to be in a member state country. It

:50:04.:50:10.

isn't just academics, it is care workers. Absolutely. I think it is

:50:11.:50:16.

very sad that people are moving away from this country to go back to

:50:17.:50:23.

Europe, very often, as you say, can workers, people from Poland, and the

:50:24.:50:27.

Czech Republic, from across Europe, have been providing the care for

:50:28.:50:31.

elderly people, certainly in Oxfordshire over a number of years.

:50:32.:50:37.

Those people are going back already. They're not sure that they are

:50:38.:50:42.

wanted. It may be that something gets sorted out. They feel they're

:50:43.:50:45.

being used as pawns and is sort of bargaining games with the other

:50:46.:50:51.

European states. We have got scientists who are actually jointly

:50:52.:50:55.

funded across the whole of Europe, so they work she in institutions

:50:56.:51:01.

across Oxfordshire but they share with other people. It is maintaining

:51:02.:51:04.

and replacing grants wherever necessary. Dumping else is going

:51:05.:51:08.

wrong here. The message is not getting through. I think the message

:51:09.:51:14.

is, that's this is Brexit and we are going to be out. That is the

:51:15.:51:20.

message. Many people, that simple message is what they have God. With

:51:21.:51:28.

its does then you could have done eating remain and send a message

:51:29.:51:33.

that we are also part of Europe? I think you can send as many messages

:51:34.:51:37.

as you like but if you don't have the legality to be able to move

:51:38.:51:41.

around freely, and freedom of movement is... We don't know. We

:51:42.:51:47.

don't but I think as the other guests have suggested, things will

:51:48.:51:51.

be sorted out probably, but I think the cultural sector will be quite a

:51:52.:51:54.

long way down the list of priorities to be sorted. It may be several

:51:55.:51:59.

years before the true freedom of movement as possible. Thanks for

:52:00.:52:04.

joining us. It is the tier of local governments nobody knows about,

:52:05.:52:09.

parish town councils. They can take care of anything from allotments to

:52:10.:52:12.

play parks, but as larger authorities make budget cuts,

:52:13.:52:16.

parishes are taking on more and increasing their share of council

:52:17.:52:20.

tax as a result. Our oxygen reporter has been looking into whether we are

:52:21.:52:23.

seeing a council tax rise by the back door. It is not long for

:52:24.:52:31.

council tax bills will be landing on our maps, and if you have a parish

:52:32.:52:34.

or town council you might be in for a shock. Buried in the bill will be

:52:35.:52:39.

a charge from our lowest tier of local governments, with some parrot

:52:40.:52:42.

is bidding up taxes by more than 500% in recent years. So who is the

:52:43.:52:45.

most expensive? It is Oxfordshire's most expensive? It is Oxfordshire's

:52:46.:52:50.

pic of the priciest parishes. At number three, it is Backley and Spen

:52:51.:52:58.

Woods, whether parish council's annual charge for a band EBRD is

:52:59.:53:04.

approaching ?130 per year. Number two is tame, which you might

:53:05.:53:09.

recognise from Midsummer murders. Its town council is asking

:53:10.:53:15.

households were nearly ?137 a year. And the number one is barren fields,

:53:16.:53:21.

where the parish council has a charge of ?178 per year for a band D

:53:22.:53:31.

home. Not every area has a parish or town council, and where they do

:53:32.:53:35.

exist responsibilities vary from bus shelters to bins. They pay for

:53:36.:53:37.

services by charging a so-called services by charging a so-called

:53:38.:53:41.

precepts, an extra bed on your council tax. What are you getting

:53:42.:53:47.

barren fields? This is the skate park which was recently done a few

:53:48.:53:51.

years ago. Over there is the football billion that came to be in

:53:52.:53:58.

2004. We have to maintain the green. We are now maintaining parks on the

:53:59.:54:02.

half of the County Council. The parish council says that for nine

:54:03.:54:05.

years that hasn't actually asked for more money overall, but the amount

:54:06.:54:09.

of tax it has been able to raise has been decreasing. At the same time,

:54:10.:54:13.

is list of responsibilities is growing. As has been more and more

:54:14.:54:18.

difficult since the recession. Budgets are being cut at county and

:54:19.:54:22.

district level at the parishes are being expected to do more. As an

:54:23.:54:27.

individual I am not adverse to local people having local decisions, but

:54:28.:54:30.

it does concern me a little bits that as volunteers we are giving up

:54:31.:54:36.

our time to do well by the unity and more and more things are being asked

:54:37.:54:40.

of us. The pressure group is it fair, says responsibility is

:54:41.:54:46.

deliberately being passed on to Paris councils who had read to raise

:54:47.:54:51.

charges by as much as they want. Campaigners say it is a way of

:54:52.:54:55.

getting around 2% cap on increases that most other councils face. Paris

:54:56.:55:00.

councils have the choice of saying we are not want to do it or we will

:55:01.:55:06.

lose a service. They have no cap on parish councils. Continuously the

:55:07.:55:10.

government has promised that they will look at it, look at it, look at

:55:11.:55:15.

it but they have done nothing. There is no cap and the parish councils

:55:16.:55:20.

are free to put it up as much as they like. In Oxfordshire it is

:55:21.:55:23.

certainly the case that parish and town councils are taking on more.

:55:24.:55:29.

This town Council has been helping to keep their children's centre

:55:30.:55:32.

going after ongoing County Council funding was cut. The public stock me

:55:33.:55:38.

and said, I'm paying my council tax twice will stop the consumer puts

:55:39.:55:43.

our preset up but the County Council had told to take in the same amount

:55:44.:55:46.

of money but not providing the service. That is the comment I have

:55:47.:55:52.

would go along the line that we have would go along the line that we have

:55:53.:55:57.

to keep this service. I have to rise above that. It is a front-line

:55:58.:56:03.

services but have to be kept. The government says it expects parishes

:56:04.:56:06.

to demonstrate restraint when it comes to council tax rises, but a

:56:07.:56:10.

cap similar to the one place on district and county councils does

:56:11.:56:13.

not seem to be on the cards. Even our priciest parishes will be able

:56:14.:56:19.

to continue to increase council tax rates well above our bigger

:56:20.:56:28.

authorities. Only small amounts. It does feel like things are being

:56:29.:56:31.

passed to Paris councils deliberately, to increase the Pops.

:56:32.:56:38.

I think the bit about the children's centre was a relief good one.

:56:39.:56:43.

Oxfordshire did close children's centres. But the money wasn't cut

:56:44.:56:49.

the budget, the children's centres were closed by money was used to

:56:50.:56:53.

fund children's social care. It was used to paper social workers. Most

:56:54.:56:59.

vulnerable children and Families Bill of them. The problem is that as

:57:00.:57:07.

the pressure goes up, as the money that is needed by the local

:57:08.:57:10.

authority goes up in response to need, then some of the services that

:57:11.:57:16.

are valued in these communities... Is putting it through the back door?

:57:17.:57:21.

Yes. That it is getting paid for and I think that is the thing. It is

:57:22.:57:25.

saving services in these communities. How they talk to each

:57:26.:57:32.

other in the street every day, they know the fan -- value of some of

:57:33.:57:35.

these services. They know what they don't step in, the services are

:57:36.:57:40.

likely to go completely. I take my hat off to some of the parish and

:57:41.:57:43.

town councils across Oxfordshire that have stepped up. Like they have

:57:44.:57:46.

done in Carterton, have saved some done in Carterton, have saved some

:57:47.:57:50.

of this excellent provision until a of this excellent provision until a

:57:51.:57:54.

time when we get a Labour government and get more children's centres

:57:55.:57:58.

again. Where is all this money going to come from? We have money for an

:57:59.:58:04.

awful lot of things nationally which we perhaps should be considering

:58:05.:58:06.

whether we should be putting up corporation tax. Whether we should

:58:07.:58:10.

be putting the burden of taxation much more onto those people who can

:58:11.:58:16.

afford it. So that we can fund services in Oxfordshire. We could

:58:17.:58:20.

put another layer on top of the council tax bands but we have got.

:58:21.:58:27.

Oxfordshire has got, people in Oxfordshire are in the largest

:58:28.:58:32.

houses. They have the suggestions here. You would like more money on

:58:33.:58:36.

your budget as well. We are doing well in Portsmouth. We are

:58:37.:58:41.

relatively low tax collecting city in the UK, if you compare our

:58:42.:58:44.

council tax to other such to neighbours like Southampton and

:58:45.:58:48.

Brighton. Portsmouth residents get a very good value for money in terms

:58:49.:58:52.

of our average band big council tax property. We had to take ?9 million

:58:53.:58:58.

out of our budget this year. Because I have been able to generate new

:58:59.:59:02.

income, I have driven a strategy of income generation throughout the

:59:03.:59:06.

county over the last two years, through that and rescheduling of old

:59:07.:59:09.

stats, I have been able to raise ?8.1 million this year and I have

:59:10.:59:13.

only had two passport 900,000 pounds onto front-line services. That has

:59:14.:59:16.

meant that people haven't even noticed it. Rather than investing in

:59:17.:59:22.

Tesco distribution centres in the Midlands, surely you could do with

:59:23.:59:24.

more money from central government from taxation? Absolutely. I don't

:59:25.:59:35.

disagree. If we didn't have a huge national structural deficit into the

:59:36.:59:37.

trillions because of mismanagement of the economy over the previous ten

:59:38.:59:43.

to 15 years, we would get more money. Lack of regulation under a

:59:44.:59:46.

Labour government led the banking crisis. We are where we are. I think

:59:47.:59:56.

this is why councils now need to really focus on how they all use

:59:57.:00:00.

lies the assets we have. You should be working harder, is what she is

:00:01.:00:05.

saying. Oxfordshire County Council has cut ?3 million out of their

:00:06.:00:09.

budgets over this last period of time. 200 million of that did get

:00:10.:00:15.

put back into funding the pressures. You can't get away from your moral

:00:16.:00:20.

obligation to safeguard children, elderly people, to provide care for

:00:21.:00:24.

older people, care for people with disabilities. They are moral

:00:25.:00:28.

obligations as well as financial ones. The supermarket we have bought

:00:29.:00:33.

is paying for my libraries, my school crossing patrol people and my

:00:34.:00:37.

museums and swimming pools. All of my non-statutory services which

:00:38.:00:41.

would have had to close. We have weekly bin collections, one of the

:00:42.:00:44.

only cities now in the UK that is committed to that. I have been able

:00:45.:00:48.

to do that because we are going out and raising money. That's what all

:00:49.:00:49.

councils should be doing. hospital beds. It must keep going.

:00:50.:01:13.

Shaftesbury Avenue store sits our places were collections are being

:01:14.:01:22.

beds, it is about providing care in beds, it is about providing care in

:01:23.:01:24.

a different manner and keeping people at home. The trust that runs

:01:25.:01:30.

mental health services in Sussex than ?6 million on agency nurses

:01:31.:01:33.

this year, early half of the cash went to recruitment agencies.

:01:34.:01:38.

Meanwhile government's plans to tackle childhood obesity need to be

:01:39.:01:42.

strengthened according to a Southampton professor. We need

:01:43.:01:47.

stronger statutory controls. HS2 got the green light but the Transport

:01:48.:01:51.

Secretary emphasised help those on the line. With a new line to best it

:01:52.:01:56.

still too noisy according to locals. It is going to be life changing. ?10

:01:57.:02:02.

million has been spent on noise barriers. All those petitions were

:02:03.:02:15.

saving local services. He must hate getting petitions, don't you? If the

:02:16.:02:23.

recipe from no change, so often. I think it's healthy to have engaged

:02:24.:02:26.

democracy petitions are a good way of people letting decision-makers

:02:27.:02:31.

know how they feel. You quite happy to go against. Anyone can start a

:02:32.:02:36.

petition now and often they do without having the facts. As someone

:02:37.:02:40.

running a City Council, that is often something I have to come

:02:41.:02:45.

against day-to-day. But it is a form of democracy and I welcome increased

:02:46.:02:51.

democracy. Is that the way to do it? I think local people being able to

:02:52.:02:57.

have bad voice is extremely important. And knowing that

:02:58.:03:00.

thing to it is not the same thing to it is not the same

:03:01.:03:05.

necessarily as agreeing with it. Politicians never do what we ask.

:03:06.:03:11.

Appointed Donna makes is that very often people rush to get updates

:03:12.:03:16.

petition when they don't have the full facts. They signed petitions

:03:17.:03:20.

without the full facts. Do your research first. Thank you both. That

:03:21.:03:25.

is the Sunday Politics in the south. Thank you to my guests this week.

:03:26.:03:30.

That is all. You can keep up-to-date with southern politics by reading my

:03:31.:03:31.

blog. Now back to Andrew. Welcome back. Article 50, which

:03:32.:03:53.

triggers the beginning of Britain leaving the European Union and start

:03:54.:03:57.

negotiations, is winding its way through the Lords in this coming

:03:58.:04:03.

week. Tarzan has made an intervention, let's just see the

:04:04.:04:09.

headline from the Mail on Sunday. Lord Heseltine, Michael Heseltine,

:04:10.:04:13.

my fightback starts here, he is going to defy Theresa May. I divide

:04:14.:04:17.

one Prime Minister over the poll tax, I'm ready to defy this one in

:04:18.:04:21.

the Lords over Brexit. There we go, that's going to happen this week. We

:04:22.:04:27.

will see how far he gets. I don't think he will get very far, I don't

:04:28.:04:32.

think Loyalist Tory MPs and Brexiteers are quaking in their

:04:33.:04:36.

boots at the prospect of a rebellion led by Michael Heseltine. I sense

:04:37.:04:40.

that many Tory MPs are already moving on to the next question about

:04:41.:04:44.

Brexit, and the discussion over how much it will cost us to come out.

:04:45.:04:49.

The fact they are already debating that suggests to me they feel things

:04:50.:04:56.

will go fairly smoothly in terms of the legislation. When I spoke to the

:04:57.:05:00.

Labour leader in the Lords last week on the daily politics, she said she

:05:01.:05:04.

was going to push hard for the kind of amendments Lord has all-time is

:05:05.:05:12.

talking about and they would bring that back to the Commons. But if the

:05:13.:05:17.

Commons pinged it back to the Lords with the amendments taken out, she

:05:18.:05:20.

made it clear that was the end of it. Is that right? That's about

:05:21.:05:28.

right. This is probably really a large destruction. There will be to

:05:29.:05:32.

micro issues that come up in the Lords, one is on the future of EU

:05:33.:05:38.

nationals, that could be voted on as soon as this Wednesday, and then the

:05:39.:05:42.

main vote in the Lords on a week on Tuesday, when there is this question

:05:43.:05:46.

of what sort of vote will MPs and peers get at the end of the Brexit

:05:47.:05:51.

process and that is what has all-time is talking about. He wants

:05:52.:05:54.

to make sure there are guarantees in place. The kind of things peers are

:05:55.:06:00.

looking for are pretty moderate and the Government have hinted they

:06:01.:06:02.

could deliver on both of them already. But they are still not

:06:03.:06:08.

prepared... Amber Rudd said they were not prepared... They may say

:06:09.:06:14.

yes we are going to do that but they won't allow whatever that is to be

:06:15.:06:19.

enshrined in the legislation. The question is whether we think this is

:06:20.:06:23.

dancing on the head of a pin. The Government have already promised

:06:24.:06:26.

something in the House of Commons, but will they write it down, I don't

:06:27.:06:29.

think that's the biggest problem in the world. In a sense this is a

:06:30.:06:33.

great magicians trick by Theresa May because it is not the most important

:06:34.:06:40.

thing. The most important thing in Brexit is going on in those

:06:41.:06:43.

committees behind closed doors when they are trying to work out what the

:06:44.:06:46.

next migration system is for Britain and there are some interesting,

:06:47.:06:50.

indeed toxic proposals, but at the moment Downing Street are happy to

:06:51.:06:55.

let us talk about the constitutional propriety of what MPs are doing over

:06:56.:07:01.

the next eight days. It seems to me the irony is that if we had a second

:07:02.:07:05.

chamber that can claim some kind of democratic legitimacy, which the one

:07:06.:07:10.

we have cannot, it would be able to cause the Government more trouble on

:07:11.:07:14.

this, it would be more robust. Absolutely. I saw the interview we

:07:15.:07:18.

did with the Labour Leader of the Lords, they are very conscious, of

:07:19.:07:27.

the fact they are not elected and have limited powers. She was clear

:07:28.:07:31.

to you they would not impede the timetable for triggering Article 50

:07:32.:07:35.

so we might get a bit of theatre, Michael Heseltine might deliver a

:07:36.:07:40.

brilliant speech. It is interesting that Euroscepticism gun under

:07:41.:07:45.

Margaret Thatcher in the Tory party but two offer senior ministers Ken

:07:46.:07:51.

Clarke and Michael Heseltine are the most prominent opponents now but

:07:52.:07:54.

they will change nothing at this point. She will have the space to

:07:55.:07:58.

trigger Article 50 within her timetable. Let's move on. Let me

:07:59.:08:03.

show you a picture tweeted by Nigel Farage.

:08:04.:08:09.

That is Nigel Farage and a small group of people having dinner, and

:08:10.:08:16.

within that small group of people is the president of the United States,

:08:17.:08:20.

and it was taken in the last couple of days. This would suggest that if

:08:21.:08:26.

he can command that amount of the President's time in a small group of

:08:27.:08:30.

people, then he's actually rather close to the president. Make no

:08:31.:08:36.

mistake about it, Nigel Farage is now to and fro Washington more

:08:37.:08:39.

regularly than perhaps he is here. Hopefully that LBC programme is

:08:40.:08:46.

recorded over in the state. He's not only close to the president but to a

:08:47.:08:52.

series of people within the administration. That relationship

:08:53.:08:56.

there is a remarkable one and one to keep an eye on. Will the main

:08:57.:09:00.

government be tempted to tap into that relationship at any time or is

:09:01.:09:06.

it just seething with anger? You can feel a ripple of discontentment over

:09:07.:09:13.

this. We are in the middle of negotiating the state visit and the

:09:14.:09:17.

sort of pomp and circumstance and what kind of greeting Britain should

:09:18.:09:21.

give Donald Trump when he comes over later in the year. There is a great

:09:22.:09:25.

deal of neurotic thought going into what that should look like, but one

:09:26.:09:29.

of the most interesting things about our relationship with Donald Trump

:09:30.:09:32.

is that there is a nervousness among some Cabinet ministers that we are

:09:33.:09:36.

being seen to go too far, too fast with the prospect of a trade deal.

:09:37.:09:41.

Even amongst some Brexiteer cabinet ministers, they worry we won't get a

:09:42.:09:45.

very good trade deal with the US and we are tolerably placing a lot of

:09:46.:09:48.

stalled by it. When we see the kind of deal they want to pitch with us

:09:49.:09:53.

there might be some pulling back and that could be an awkward moment in

:09:54.:10:01.

terms of our relationship, and no doubt Nigel at that term -- at that

:10:02.:10:04.

point will accuse the UK of doing the dirty on Donald Trump. If there

:10:05.:10:10.

was a deal, would they get it through the House of Commons? Nigel

:10:11.:10:18.

Farage is having dinner with the president, not bad as a kind of

:10:19.:10:22.

lifestyle but he's politically rootless, he won't be an MEP much

:10:23.:10:26.

longer so if you look at where is his political base to build on this

:10:27.:10:30.

great time he's having, there is one. Given that there is one I think

:10:31.:10:34.

he's just having a great time and it isn't much more significant than

:10:35.:10:39.

that. No? There's a lot to be said for having a great time. You are

:10:40.:10:50.

having a great time. Let's just look, because of the dominance of

:10:51.:10:57.

the Government we kind of it nor there are problems piling up, only

:10:58.:11:02.

what, ten days with the Budget to go, piling up for Mrs May and her

:11:03.:11:07.

government. The business rates which has alarmed a lot of Tories, this

:11:08.:11:12.

disability cuts which are really a serious problem for the Government,

:11:13.:11:17.

and the desperate need for more money for social care. There are

:11:18.:11:21.

other issues, there are problems there and they involve spending

:11:22.:11:25.

money. Absolutely and some people argue Theresa May has only one

:11:26.:11:29.

Monday and that is to deliver Brexit but it is impossible as a Prime

:11:30.:11:34.

Minister to ignore everything else. And she doesn't want to either. The

:11:35.:11:40.

bubbling issue of social care and the NHS is the biggest single

:11:41.:11:43.

problem for her in the weeks and months ahead, she has got to come up

:11:44.:11:47.

with something. And Mr Hammond will have to loosen his belt a little

:11:48.:11:52.

bit. I think he will in relation to the NHS, he didn't mention it in the

:11:53.:11:56.

Autumn Statement, which was remarkable, and he cannot get away

:11:57.:12:00.

with not mentioning it this time. If he mentions it, it has to be in a

:12:01.:12:04.

positive context in some way or another and it is one example of

:12:05.:12:08.

many. She is both strong because she is so far ahead in the opinion

:12:09.:12:13.

polls, but this in tray is one of the most daunting a Prime Minister

:12:14.:12:17.

has faced in recent times I think. Here is what will happen on Budget

:12:18.:12:23.

day, money will be more money, magically found down the back of the

:12:24.:12:30.

Treasury sofa. The projections are that he has wiggle room of about 12

:12:31.:12:34.

billion. But look at the bills, rebels involved in business rates

:12:35.:12:38.

suggest the Chancellor will have to throw up ?2 billion at that problem.

:12:39.:12:44.

3.7 billion is the potential cost of this judgment about disability

:12:45.:12:47.

benefits. The Government will try to find different ways of satisfying it

:12:48.:12:52.

but who knows. It will not popular. I'm not sure they will throw money

:12:53.:12:57.

at the NHS, they want an interim settlement on social care which will

:12:58.:12:59.

alleviate pressure on the NHS but they feel... That's another couple

:13:00.:13:06.

of billion by the way. They feel in the Treasury that the NHS has not

:13:07.:13:10.

delivered on what Simon Stevens promised them. But here is the

:13:11.:13:17.

bigger problem for Philip Hammond, he has two This year and he thinks

:13:18.:13:21.

the second one in the autumn is more important because that is when

:13:22.:13:24.

people will feel the cost living squeeze.

:13:25.:13:26.

The Daily Politics is back at noon on BBC Two tomorrow.

:13:27.:13:30.

We'll be back here at the same time next week.

:13:31.:13:32.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:33.:13:39.

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