26/03/2017 Sunday Politics South

It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.

The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,

but do the security services have the resources and

We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.

As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of

Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power

Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job

In the South... and the party's

The regeneration that's coming to a town near you,

but is it all a bit similar-looking, with too many high-end shopping

And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political

panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee

and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack

The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament,

but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 -

one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital.

His target was the very heart of our democracy,

the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres

of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers.

Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's

close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity

at the time, the outcome could have been even worse.

Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we

be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary

response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as

prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive

way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and

national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to

whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put

more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor

sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder

whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around

the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack,

as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on

social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the

attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to

the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions.

Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while

an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the

weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the

world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it

stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for

years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the

chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal,

so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of

London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that

the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this

is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think

from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a

poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to

imagine the emergency services and local people, international

visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our

Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards

shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice.

It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values

that is attacking. OK, thank you for that.

So, four days after the attack, what more do we know

The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains

Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation.

According to a police timeline, that's how long it took

Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster

to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter...

to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard

The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster.

The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying:

"We would like to express our gratitude to the people

who were with Keith in his last moments and who were

There was nothing more you could have done,

you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone."

Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him.

Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp

The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging

There should be no place for terrorists to hide.

We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp,

and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret

place for terrorists to communicate with each other.

It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just

listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing,

legally, through warrantry, but in this situation

we need to make sure that our intelligence services

have the ability to get into situations like encrypted

She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions

at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out

But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be

..not the policy implications that will echo the loudest.

We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol,

the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright.

What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I

can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation,

because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but

to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80

counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year,

using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the

very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also

tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring

this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made

available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do

we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired

or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being

led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate

on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the

attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in

Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin

Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last

year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved

have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of

them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians

in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a

gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of

attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at

least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well.

Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those

involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is

going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we?

Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least

the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the

only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see

in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for

example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the

security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels,

Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that

could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at

least the first indications from what police are saying in London,

these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of

the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised

community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a

dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised

individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult

when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that

they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the

work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices

that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home

Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps

like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they

encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services

to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for

that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years

there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are

becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more

and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators,

and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the

ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not

when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board,

for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have

to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of

these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a

more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is

certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying

to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree

certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative

solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide

but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done

to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of

communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our

lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much.

Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House

What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of

Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very

courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to

be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident

of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but

also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already

under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and

security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get

reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary

security director, and just as security matters in parliament are

kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as

a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the

issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling

events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their

lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is

it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate,

where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening

for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led

to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last

couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have

actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would

expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security

matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at

all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the

security authorities and in particular for the police and direct

command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it

because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers

this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no

position to comment on the details of the operation but my

understanding is that the number of people available is what the police

and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and

that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it

not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left

unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so

that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able

to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that

case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't

yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody

involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who

was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time.

We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were

concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the

attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with

a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it

is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be

pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it.

To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the

witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what

happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any

changes need to be made in light of that.

We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence

Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced

the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details

but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have

been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has

been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a

so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the

Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this

simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that

is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader

of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals

who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by

the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in

public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been

reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it

raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions

should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are

kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both

in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the

palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the

perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was

a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at

carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed

guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to

look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing.

There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't

know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will

find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If

you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to

be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed

accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about

lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is

important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview

of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered

view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will

be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins

our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on

Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper

that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's

not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts

of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the

commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime

Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has

been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It

doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational

mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an

agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies

that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police

cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all

countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it

will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that?

Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context

of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the

departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply

not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a

discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we

all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we

will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is

possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The

question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the

subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel?

Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have

to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate

the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once

David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the

national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady

progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good

piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a

substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out

some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU

programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50

billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So

50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get

into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting

very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum

there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of

separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find

out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The

Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which

is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision

of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in

a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity

and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the

Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on

Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will

see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine

thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII

powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to

avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities

Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory

footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those

EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another

regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to

have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European

regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come

in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those

powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the

parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And

if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the

Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary

legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the

constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill

and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House

of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those

powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision.

David Lidington, thank you for being with us.

So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell.

He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party

almost three years ago, but yesterday announced

that he was quitting to sit as an independent.

His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying,

"Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster".

But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell

criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as

Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage

was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell

opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign.

Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage

accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances

of being awarded a knighthood, writing that,

Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday,

Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU.

Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have

decided that I will be leaving Ukip."

When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014

he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election.

"I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring

This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election.

We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall.

Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your

only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at

a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not

surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the

past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage

certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime

which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had

done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering

over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a

more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he

expected to be pushed out your national executive committee

tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to

answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the

last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue

surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came

out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to

answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did

jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out

of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear

is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the

party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks,

you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a

pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party,

doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to

rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over

the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will

rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have

a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post

Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he

said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the

skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't

it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November

the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the

party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem

money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look

forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit

test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have

been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you

will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No,

not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past,

he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that

but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for

the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be

interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster

attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's

extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like

Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I

personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I

will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem

within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the

way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr

Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the

problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate

communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would

extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in

Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But,

as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme

vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question

too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get

you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in

Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has

left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to

go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people

in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should

have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon.

Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio.

Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are

becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted

myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to

trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons

resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the

democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran

parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here,

I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage

has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants

to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going

to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his

constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr

Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from

Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the

opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not

always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an

e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back,

overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you

are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won,

Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June

the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be

absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is

right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the

European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one

another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline

the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I

have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge.

You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made

the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made

it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote

Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would

win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of

that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas

I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history

proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk

often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part

of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic

policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to

sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave

certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They

freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel

still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for

Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and

we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like

Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is

to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why

can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but

you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this

than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten

years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in

2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in

2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left

us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically

gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her

record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam,

nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of

thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the

size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of

thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The

problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the

argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted

her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until

she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen,

just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past.

Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee

into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what

people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself

with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip

to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will

come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit

Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill

and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas

Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in

the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were

Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a

Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a

Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a

party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree

with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into

2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote

Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you

fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and

see. Very well! Thank you both very much.

On today's show, our towns and cities are undergoing a bit

of a regeneration boom at the moment - but is it all a bit corporate

and just about high-end shopping centres and expensive flats?

First, let's meet the two politicians, who will be

Robert Gould is the Conservative leader of Dorset County Council

and Bob Price is the Labour leader of Oxford City Council.

Both of you are engaged in reorganising councils now. You're

waiting to hear from The Secretary of State on Dorset. You are quite

concerned about the idea to create one Oxon. You are fighting it. You

think it would be better to have an elected city may? We are working

with all the districts until December on a combined authority bid

with an elected official. And in the New Year the county and two

districts turned their backs on the proposal and went for a unitary

option. We are now in combat with them about that proposition. And you

are locked in combat with the district councils, three out of six

saying they do not want Dorset to split into two councils. Not at all,

actually. We have quite a high level of agreement and we want to replace

the existing nine, two unitary, six district and county council, with

two brand-new councils which I think will be more efficient, more

accountable and more transparent for decision-making. And much more

significant savings can be made by doing that. Possibly pop with the

public, getting rid of so many councillors! It is true. 330 odd,

they played an important role but do we need that many for a place the

size of Dorset? I think we can do it. We have got a lot of good town

and parish councillors and I think their role should be valued and

enhanced for the future. That is something we are keen on. You will

save 108,000,006 years? That is the basic projection. We think we can go

further than bad. -- 100 ?8 million in six years. Now people that wants

to do one Oxon come they say they can save ?100 million over five

years. That is why we are sceptical about it. They're all sorts of

expensive reports that have been written. The evidence the savings is

minimal to say the least. If you look at the area where you might

make savings, like councillors in terms of the actual services

offered, reduction in back office costs in the last six years have

been enormous. There is not a lot left to be reduced. Areas for

reduction are in social care, in the county council remit. They had not

tackled transformation. You would not be doing this if you are not

having budgets cut. I think we should be doing it without the

budget card but it is a catalyst to get things moving. We had a

reference to transformation of services, really important, we are

doing a lot of that. The structures you have got limit what you can

transfer moving forward. I think we will continue the programme with or

without local government reform but it will be a great boost and help to

delivering those values. Do you think it will happen in Dorset? We

had positive feedback from the secretary of state. And will it

happen in Oxford? The Secretary of State has been clear that he would

like it to be bottom-up and consensus. Four of our MPs are in

opposition and public opinion is three quarters against. You were

going to say three quarters in favour! Very good research has been

carried out across the county. Our residents are strongly behind it.

Ours showed 70% against it and the county council's own engagement, 74%

against. We will see what can swing it and what can't.

Now, council tax bills have been dropping onto doormats over the last

few weeks and the chances are you've noticed an extra line in there,

as they add the special levy to pay for adult social care.

Throw in the extra two billion that the chancellor promised

in the budget and that's adult social care all sorted,

According to figures uncovered by the BBC's Panorama

programme this week, 95 councils have had home-care

contracts cancelled by the companies providing them because the payments

were too small, and a quarter of the UK's care home providers

Joining us now from our Tunbridge Wells studio

is Nadra Ahmed of the National Care Association.

You asked for more money, you are getting more money. Is there still a

problem? I think we welcome the money, of course. It is better than

nothing, which is what we have been getting for the last decade. And we

have at cuts in the social care budget. -- have had. This is not a

lot of money and it will not redress the challenge we face. Partly

because I think it is too little and because I think it is too little and

too late. But having said that, I think there is a responsibility to

be absolutely clear that this money is for front line services and not

to bolster social services departments. How much do you need? I

think we needed 2.4 billion to stand still. That was the calculation. You

got two billion plus whatever comes from the precept. That was to stand

still. Now we have to look at the forward projections. What we have is

1 million given this year. That is being divvied up among local

authorities. We do not know how they will use it. What we are talking

about is front-line services. Actually two billion in three years

is still not making a sustainable option. People have actually gone

out of business, there are people with 25% of the banks called a

zombie provision, walking towards the edge of the cliff scenario. And

this money will not help? I am hoping it will in some way, to

create some sustainability of just standing still. That is what we are

looking at with this money. It will not look at provision going forward.

We must remember that social care services are now delivering health

care tasks. That costs a lot more money than originally factored in.

You can understand people looking at the council tax Bill and wondering

how they can pay it, looking at the extra line and saying that is this a

bottomless pit? Unfortunately this is something we said at the very

beginning when the precept was introduced, that these kinds of

taxes can never be withdrawn or taken away when you have got an

ageing population. This is not about the same people we were looking

after 20 years ago. This is a very different scenario. Actually, when

you have got an ageing population, what we have done is systematically

failed to recognise that we need to have more social care in place to

meet rising demand. What we have done is reduce social care budgets,

look at reducing the social care provision and now we are wondering

why we are in the mess we are in, when we have more people who need

social care and not less. Is it just a sticking plaster, Bob Price? I

think the point she made about rising demand is important. We have

got an ageing population and increasingly people needing longer

periods of care. That requires specialist expertise in the home

rather than special places. I think there is a rising demand which is

probably not going to be covered. And for some councils it feels like

they are not necessarily spending all the money on adult social care,

because some people have moved it to other places. It certainly does not

apply in Dorset. We have a good record of getting people out of

hospital, or back home, or where most appropriate, which is better

value for everybody. We have increased costs because of things

like the National Living Wage, which is important, we want to make sure

people providing service gets a proper income but I think we need a

long-term solution. There was additional funding in the budget,

which is very welcome. I think the Government has got the message they

need to do something more radical to bring it in line. What would you

suggest? I think we need to work more effectively with health service

colleagues. We have a good record of colleagues. We have a good record of

that in Dorset. We need to do more. The budget, if we can pull it across

the better fund coming through in the better fund coming through in

later years in the settlement, that will help, but we need confidence we

have a long-term sustainable thing for the future. We cannot keep

adding extra... Andy Burnham's National care service. We also have

to work with providers. I am sorry but everybody fails to mention the

providers. Of course you need to work closely with health colleagues.

But it is the providers who are actually innovating to create the

services. You aren't even talking to them as legal counsel. Are you

talking enough? I agree with her point that it is important that it

is an important part of the whole system of getting people the

appropriate care. And we want people out of hospital and living

independently either at home or in a care home. This is a Labour

authority in Liverpool offering ?13.10 per hour to provide. How can

you pay minimum wage in Liverpool, even? ?13.10 an hour doesn't cover

it. And there is also the question of the providers having the right

accommodation for people to go in. We do not have enough accommodation

with the appropriate site for people to move into. Because we haven't

invested. It is bricks and mortar as well as care itself. Where should we

go from here? The integrated social care Bill is long overdue. Do you

think integration in itself? I think integration, if we know what it

means and somebody can focus down and tell me what they are talking

about, because there seems to be integration which is different in

some part of the country to others and in some places it doesn't exist

at all. Everybody tells me they are integrating. These transformation

plans mean nothing to the service user who is seeing less of their

demand being met and these are assessed needs they know they have

to fulfil, because we are creating a lonely environment for people

keeping them at home, people handing back contracts, they can't deliver

the service, so we are letting them down. Local authorities need to wake

up and work with providers. There is a crisis averted but there is one

around the corner. We have done some innovative work in Dorset, creating

our own a trading company to provide care services for people. I think we

need to join things up. But joining up with the health service is good

but we need to introduce efficiencies and accountability

which we have in local government into the health process to make sure

we get the best value. Thank you very much for joining us today.

Thank you. In terms of joining up, can I add, getting in early,

prevention rather than cure. Useful extra thought, Bob. Thank you.

Now, here's a topic to go to town on...

Urban regeneration schemes are springing up across the South.

It's city living like we've never seen it before.

But is it a brave new world or a corporate take-over?

Our Hampshire and Isle of Wight Political Reporter Jessica Parker

But the sea itself is rather hard to find.

Sorry, you haven't seen the sea, have you?

With a rather built-up waterside, you've really

Mayflower Park is one of the few places where people

can get near the water here and there's a plan to redevelop the

whole area, but not everyone's happy.

When I looked at the plans here, I was totally...

Shops, restaurants, a hotel and flats, a not untypical set

The same sterile spaces, little bit of paving, same thing

sticking up, same bit of green and the high end housing

and commercial development just dominating the

Commercial developments offering homes, retail and leisure

are of course springing up, or planned, across the South.

There's the Bracknell Lexicon, the Oxford

Westgate Centre and back in Southampton, West Q2 is being

finished up, but who is benefiting the most?

It's a partnership, so we benefit because we get the business

use to subsidise public services for everybody.

We get the jobs and opportunities for people that live here.

Development benefits because they get

a viable development in a

city that's growing and can make a profit.

Without companies making profits there will not be any taxes

Do people think it's all making the right kind of splash?

Definitely the regeneration here has been fantastic.

I have been here 21 years and it seems

to be a massive development, money that they've put into the city since

I think they've done some wonderful stuff down here.

The council have not got their act together over the years, but now

The nice thing is they have exposed the

And before, well, you could see a little bit here and there.

Simon Hill worked in council planning for decades.

Some years ago the answer was always build more land in the

In the last 20 years there has been much

more national policy towards

trying to intensify within the cities.

Not only to save countryside land, but also you get that intensity

of activity which makes it a more vibrant place.

And developers, what are they looking to do in general?

Some have got aspirations, they want to leave a good mark, they

want to be seen in a good category of developer.

There are others driven by the shareholders and

accountants and it is just, what is the mix of development we can get

And we can either sell or rent it afterwards.

So how can councils know their new plans future proof?

If you were to say what happened 20 years ago and

where we are now, 20 years ago nobody had the internet, internet

shopping didn't exist, so it is very difficult to predict.

Generally speaking, people are still going to

want to eat and see a film and still will need brilliant and excellent

public rail space, which is what we have got here.

For some, developer cash is being put before the community.

The planners, holy, holy, developers coming to Southampton,

they are going to give us some money and it is dominated by

There is no sense of place, to my knowledge.

Any big urban planning project can divide opinion.

Some will see it as an innovation and others

What is the perspective in Oxford, Bob? It is very difficult with

historic listed buildings to make development work. Then you have high

as prices, which I suppose may help in some ways. The Westgate

development going up now replaces an unpleasant 1974 development, which

rather destroyed the character of the inner-city part of the city. The

new development has been designed carefully to fit in with the more

historic part of the city. Four good architect companies working with the

Crown estate on a long-term high quality development, which will

combine, as Simon said, retail with cinema, leisure and very nice spaces

for cultural activity. With online are taking away from the shops, can

we rely on keeping the leisure industry to keep funding this or in

the end will we have another way to find to pay for city centres? People

still like shopping and going to restaurants. We have a large visitor

economy in Oxford with nine or 10 economy in Oxford with nine or 10

million visitors per year. They like to look at the colleges, green

spaces but would also want to go shopping. And that costs you, as

well, to keep the green spaces. To clean the city centre, yes. This is

an interesting example, in Dorset. We are providing a range of houses

at low cost, affordable housing with open market housing employment. And

jobs, employment, retail. I think it linked back to what we were talking

about in terms of local government reorganisation, to get a joined up

strategic planning approach in the county, and also talking about care

we need the right accommodation for the people working in the care

sector. That is hard at the moment. We need appropriate affordable

housing in the right places. A real challenge. It feels like the

affordable housing has been pushed to one side for volume at the

moment. Obviously by increasing volume you increase availability.

That is important. Really? Build more houses? The prices... I think

we need to build more but in the right place. We need to make sure

that it is quality. Craig Reid Berry, good quality material, we

mention. People like it. -- we mention good quality material. Other

schemes like the Brewery Square and the regeneration, we do know retail

is changing and it is more of a recreational activity with more

restaurants and coffee places. We need to provide the right mixture. I

think it is important to get it right. Should we not still be

worried about housing, Bob? Yes, across the Southeast it is a very

big problem. The mixture is important. Some private affordable

and social rent, the mixture is important to get right to

accommodate different types of employee we have in the area.

Low-wage employees in retail and social care needs to have cheap rent

rather than expensive housing. I think that is quite true. We are

looking at all our assets to see if there is land that can be unlocked

to be used as potential care home usage, or development for low-cost

housing and rental. But it has to be a partnership. Yes, that is right.

We're looking at the public and private partnership. One key

priority is to rationalise property holdings as we work differently and

do not need so many properties. There is a lot of potential which we

need to unlock going forward. Finding a good partner is important.

We are part of estates on the Barton scheme and they are long-term

investments for quality. Pound rate is a good example. Interesting

examples, thank you. Now our regular round-up

of the political week The terrorist attack

in Parliament was marked by Here in Sussex and the Portsmouth

Guildhall, the bravery of the Bournemouth MP Tobias Ellwood,

praised by the Prime Minister. We will remember the extraordinary

efforts to save the life of PC Keith Palmer, including those by my right

honourable friend, the member for

Bournemouth East. Thames Water were handed a record

?20 million fine for Hundreds of fish were killed

in 2013, manholes overflowed, spilling sewage

into nature reserves. The Oxford Cycling Network launched

a vision for 366 miles of cycle routes, which will join every

major town in the county, at a cost A return to prefab housing could be

under way, with plans for a housing The city council will

then transport them Might send some of those at the A34

and 35. I think Southampton would like to purchase them! Let's talk

about Tobias Ellwood quickly and the terrible events in Parliament. With

all respect to the people who died on the bridge and the others, has

there been too much in the media? Does it feed terrorism? I think we

have to be careful about the balance. One lesson, the value of

democracy, the important part of the country is the democratic process

and it is popular to criticise MPs and we need to remember how

important the processes. But we do need to get the coverage. But

actually the deaths on the bridge and the tourist visiting... And the

response of the emergency services. The police and health service

responded extraordinarily quickly and effectively and we should give

tribute to them. Our thoughts are with all those people affected by a

terrible thing but we have to try and carry on and learn lessons.

Democracy was the target. I was there and we got locked down. I

wonder if this had happened in Exeter or even Oxford, is it

different? Because it is Parliament? I think it would have been the same

reaction. People are immediately sympathetic to the victims and wants

to support, as Robert said, democracy and rule of law. It is

wonderful what kicks in when people support whatever they are doing and

our thoughts... We put a flag at our thoughts... We put a flag at

half-mast yesterday and I have had loads of letters of support. Thank

you. That's the Sunday Politics

in the South, thanks to my guests Next week, I'll be joined

by Labour's Rowenna Davis and Conservative MP Sir Gerald

Howarth. can see you nodding in agreement but

we don't have any more time! Thank you both for coming in, Andrew, back

to you. So yesterday the European Union

celebrated its 60th birthday at a party in Rome, the city

where the founding document Leaders of 27 EU countries

were there to mark the occasion - overshadowing it, though,

the continued terrorist threat, And on Wednesday Theresa May,

who wasn't in Rome yesterday, will trigger Article 50,

formally starting The President of the European

Council, Donald Tusk, made an appeal for unity

at the gathering. Today in Rome, we are renewing

the unique alliance of free nations that was initiated 60 years ago

by our great predecessors. At that time, they did not

discuss multiple speeds, they did not devise exits,

but despite all the tragic circumstances of the recent history

they placed all their faith Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that

has the Council of ministers, and on that council where every member of

the EU sits he is an important figure in what is now about to

happen. We have got to negotiate our divorce terms, we've got to agree a

new free trade deal, new crime-fighting arrangements, we've

got to repatriate 50 international trade agreements, and all of that

has to be ratified within two years, by 27 other countries. Can that

really happen?! I don't think it is inconceivable because it is in the

interests of those 27 EU member states to try and negotiate a deal

that we can all live with, because that would be preferable to Britain

crashing out within two years. But I think this is why Labour's position

is becoming increasingly incoherent. Keir Starmer has briefed today that

he will be making a speech tomorrow setting out six conditions which he

wants the deal to meet, otherwise Labour won't vote for it, but if

Labour doesn't vote for it that doesn't mean we will be able to

negotiate an extension, that would be incredibly difficult and require

the consent of each of the 27 member states, so if Labour votes against

it we will just crash out, it is effectively Labour saying no deal is

better than a poor deal, which is not supposed to be their position.

Labour's position may be incoherent but I was not asking about their

position, I was asking about the Government's position. The man

heading the Badila said he wants it ready by October next year so that

it can go through the ratification process, people looking at this

would think it is Mission: Impossible. It seems impossible to

me to be done in that time. The fact that it is 27 countries, the whole

of the European Parliament as well, there will be too many people

throbbing spanners in the works and quite rightly. We have embarked on

something that is truly terrible and disastrous, and the imagery we can

have of those 27 countries celebrating together 60 years of the

most extraordinary successful movement for peace, for shared

European values, and others not there... We were not there at the

start either, and we are not there now! And we have been bad partners

while we were inside, but now that we are leaving... They did not look

like it was a birthday party to me! I think it was, there was a sense of

renewal, Europe exists as a place envied in the world for its values,

for its peacefulness, that is why people flocked to its borders, that

is why they come here. Can you look at the agenda that faces the UK

Government and EU 27, is it not possible, in fact even likely, that

as the process comes to an end they will have to agree on a number of

areas of transitional arrangements? I think they will and they will have

to agree that soon, I would not be surprised if sometime soon there is

an understanding is not a formal decision that this is a process that

will extend over something closer to buy or seven than two years. On

Wednesday article 50 will be filed and there will be lots of excitement

and hubbub but nothing concrete can happen for a while. Elections in

France in May, elections in Germany which could really result in a

change of Government... That is the big change, Mrs Merkel might not be

there by October. And who foresaw that a few months ago? So you might

be into 28 Dean before you are into the substantive discussions about

how much market access or regulatory observance. I cannot see it being

completed in two years. I could see, if negotiations are not too

acrimonious, that transitional agreement taking place. Let's look

at the timetable again. The council doesn't meet until the end of April,

it meets in the middle of the French elections, the first round will have

taken place, they will need a second round so not much can happen.

President Hollande will be representing France, then the new

French government, if it is Marine le Pen all bets are off, but even if

it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a party, he will not have a majority,

the French will take a long while to sort out themselves. Then it is

summer, we are off to the Cote d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian

elite, then we come back from that and the Germans are in an election,

it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr

Schultz, he may have to try to form a difficult green red coalition,

that would take a while. Before you know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and

no substance has taken place, yet we are then less than a year before

this has to be decided. It is a big task and I'm sure Jana is right that

there will be transitional arrangements and not everything will

be concluded in that two year timetable, but in some respects what

you have described helps those of us on the Eurosceptic site because it

means they cannot really be a meaningful parliamentary vote on the

terms of the deal because nothing is going to be agreed quickly enough

for them to be able to go back and agree something else if Parliament

rejects it, so when the Government eventually have something ready to

bring before Parliament it will be a take it or leave it boat. How

extraordinary that people who have campaigned. Indeed give us our

country back and say, isn't it wonderful, we won't have a

meaningful boat for our parliamentarians of the most

important... We don't know what the negotiation, the package is, day by

day we see more and more complicated areas nobody ever thought about,

nobody mentioned during the campaign, all of which has to be

resolved and the European Council and the negotiators say nothing is

agreed until everything is agreed. You lead us into a catastrophe.

There will be plenty of opportunity for Parliament to have its say

following the introduction of the Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if

there will be no Parliamentary time devoted. The final package is what

counts. We have two years to blog about this!

There was a big Proview -- pro-EU march yesterday... I was there!

Polly Toynbee was there, down to Parliament Square, lots of people

there marching in favour of the European Union. We can see the EU

flags there on flags, lots of national flags as well, the British

one. Polly, is it the aim of people like you still to stop Brexit, or to

soften Brexit? I think the aim is for the best you can possibly do to

limit the damage. Of course, if it happens that once people have had a

chance to see how much they were lied to during the campaign and how

dreadful the deal is likely to be, if it happens that enough people in

the population have changed their minds, then maybe... There is no

sign up yet. But we have not even begun, people have not begun to

confront what it is going to mean. Wait and see. I think it is just

being as close as we can. Is that credible, do you think, to stop it

or to ameliorate it in terms of the Remainers? I think it is far more

credible to try and stop it but even then the scope is limited. It is

fairly apparent Theresa May's interpretation of the referendum is

the country wants an end to free movement, there is probably no way

of doing that inside the single market. She also wants external

trade deals, no way of doing that outside the customs unit, said the

only night you can depend if you are pro-European is, let's not leave

without any trade pact, at least let's meet Canada and have a

formalised trade agreement. The idea of ace -- of a very soft exit is

gone now because the public really did want an end to free movement and

the Government really does want external trade deals. It depends

what changes in Europe. I think the momentum behind the Remoaning

movement will move away. One of the banners I saw being held up

yesterday by a young boy on the news was, don't put my daddy on a boat.

It gets a lot of its moral force from the uncertainty surrounding the

fate of EU nationals here and our resident in the remainder of the EU

and I think David Lidington is right that it will be concluded quite

quickly once negotiations start and that will take a lot of the heat and

momentum out of the remaining movement. Why didn't Theresa May

allow that amendment that said, we will do that, as an act of

generosity, we will say, of course those European citizens here are

welcome to stay? It would have been such a good opening move in the

negotiations, instead of which she blocked it. It does not augur well.

I have interviewed many Tories about this and put that point to them but

they often say the Prime minister's job is to look after UK citizen in

the EU... Bargaining chips, I think you have to be generous and you have

to wish you people in Spain and everywhere else where there are

British citizens would have responded. The British Government

did try and raise that with their EU counterparts and were told, we

cannot begin to talk about that until article 50 has been triggered.

Next week we will be able to talk about it. How generous it would have

been, we would have started on a better note. Didn't happen, we will

see what happens next with EU citizens. That is it for today, the

Daily Politics will be back tomorrow at midday and every day next week on

BBC Two as always. And there's also a Question Time

special live tomorrow night from Birmingham -

with guests including the Brexit Secretary David Davis,

Labour's Keir Starmer, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage

and the SNP's Alex Salmond - I'll be back next week

at 11am here on BBC One. Until then, remember -

if it's Sunday, it's MUSIC: The Elements

by Tom Lehrer # There's Attenborough, micro.bit,

The Bottom Line and In Our Time # And Terrific Scientific

and Ten Pieces and All In The Mind